Are you in favour of Scotland leaving the UK?

(588 Posts)
LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Mon 15-Oct-12 18:39:05

Lucky bastards! sad

SoleSource Mon 15-Oct-12 18:40:54


LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Mon 15-Oct-12 18:41:21

Why? If I can't leave, neither can they! envy

Tbh I don't really have an opinion on it one way or the other yet.

SoleSource Mon 15-Oct-12 18:42:44

If that is what they want. Good luck to them.

bureni Mon 15-Oct-12 18:42:44

I think the U.K is stronger if it remains united, I doubt if Scotland would be any better of going on its own but that is up to the Scottish people to decide.

Unlurked Mon 15-Oct-12 18:42:59

I don't know. I'm Scottish so luckily I've got a while to decide!

BitOfACyclePath Mon 15-Oct-12 18:43:50

No. I'm Scottish and don't want to leave.

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Mon 15-Oct-12 18:43:50

I like Scotland. I'll miss you if you go. sad

SoleSource Mon 15-Oct-12 18:43:51

I am English. Don't care, one iota.

CrystalQueen Mon 15-Oct-12 18:44:34

No. THeres's no way we have the infrastructure to go it alone.

prettybird Mon 15-Oct-12 18:46:44

Yes. Not because I think we're better off but because we have a different set of values.

TheCunningStunt Mon 15-Oct-12 18:47:02

It's nice when people don't care hmm. I don't want it. I am Scottish. It's not about a divide. We are one country. That's why I care. I want to keep it that way.

SoleSource Mon 15-Oct-12 18:48:37

If tney want to go who am,I to say tbey cannot. It is sad but Scottish seem to have a bad attitude toeards Englush. I am English. I lived ib Lumphinnans. Very racist. I done nothing to Scottish peopme personally.

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Mon 15-Oct-12 18:49:49

I care! My granny was Scottish, my mother has relatives...somewhere. The UK will no longer be the United Kingdom as we won't be United.

snooter Mon 15-Oct-12 18:49:51

Not sure they'll manage without us but either way I'll happily spend my tourist pounds on the north coast every year...

thegreylady Mon 15-Oct-12 18:50:15

Yes let them fund their own students,health care etc if they want to-but only if it is complete financial as well as political independence.
Actually I think the UK should be one nation all working together not fiddle faddling about with 'assemblies' which have the power to grant benefits to some at great expense to others.The present system isnt fair.

TidyGOLDDancer Mon 15-Oct-12 18:56:11

There are a lot of things that need to change about how the UK is run (for want of a better word), but I think we are on the whole better all together.

That said, I do also think that were the split to happen, Scotland would be far worse off without us than we would be without them. Which is quite bad considering it's the toad Alex Salmond who is pushing for the split....

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Mon 15-Oct-12 19:04:30

There's great inequality across the UK. In Wales I can get free NHS prescriptions, in Scotland my doesn't have to pay tuition fees. This does make me quite angry. It's pretty shit living in England.

OwedToAutumn Mon 15-Oct-12 19:08:57

If Scotland becomes independent, English students will presumably qualify for free university tuition, like other EU students do. So, yes, I'm all for it.

I miss living in Wales, prescriptions are so prohibitively expensive in England!

Has anyone brought up the subject of the North Sea oil yet?

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Mon 15-Oct-12 19:11:34

I don't think they've thought of that, Autumn.

North Sea oil? Good point!

I'm in Scotland and frankly i think Alex Salmon is a sodding lunatic and find his associations with Donald Trump and Rupert Murdoch sickening. I have to warn you if you're down South that if we end up independent then i'm coming to live with you.

derekthehamster Mon 15-Oct-12 19:15:00

I'd miss Scotland (I'm half Scottish although I've never lived there). I don't know enough about the situation, to know whether Scotland would be better off without us.

I would vote to keep the Country united if England had the referendum.

musicmadness Mon 15-Oct-12 19:19:56

If they want to go then they can go. I used to want the UK to sty together but after living with a Scottish house mate who regularly says awful things about English people and insults me constantly due to me being English I really don't care any more. I know it's a bit sad that one utter bastard is colouring my view quite badly but that's how it is at the moment. At least he shut up for a while when I asked him why the hell he was in England if he hates everything about the country.

blush OK rant over now.

On a more practical level I think all of us would be better if the UK stays united but in the long run I think Scotland would end up far worse off than England if they split. I'm not sure what would happen with the Oil etc, I'm sure there are people behind the scenes trying to figure that out!

peanutMD Mon 15-Oct-12 19:20:32

The last time one of these threads appeared, some very bigoted views were displayed and a lot of people were upset by them.

I have a funny feeling its about to happen again sad

giraffesCantGoGuisingAsZebras Mon 15-Oct-12 19:23:09

No, I want to stay

grr Music it annoys the life out of me when Scottish people do that unfortunately there are numpties who think that that sort of racism is ok.

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 19:26:56

No, I think it would be a terrible idea. (I am Scottish, well born and brought up here)

Saltire Mon 15-Oct-12 19:27:28

I used to want the UK to sty together but after living with a Scottish house mate who regularly says awful things about English people and insults me constantly due to me being English I really don't care any more

After living in England for 12 out of 19 years, I don't care any more. About living in England that is, due to English people making awful comments aobut Scottish people and me to my face and being downright racist.
So you see, despite what some English people think, it happens to us Scots too

Haemadoots Mon 15-Oct-12 19:27:44

No I am scottish and think we do well as the United Kingdom

Saltire Mon 15-Oct-12 19:28:16

I am not saying musicmadness think this BTW before anyone jumps on me. I am using a generic "some"

Does anyone know if there will be a cut off for voter turnout like there was before where if not enough voters turn up then it doesn't count? <prays for REALLY hideous weather that day>

MrsjREwing Mon 15-Oct-12 19:32:30

Is the North sea oil going to run out in two years? If so that may be why England is giving Scotland what it wants.

Good luck to the Scots if that is what they want. Just let us visit without a passport and don't join the EU.

ThompsonTwins Mon 15-Oct-12 19:35:52

The Scottish Government has yet to make the case. For some Scots the feeling of wanting independence is emotional. They know what they want to run from but they do not know fully what they would be running towards. Looking forward to seeing and hearing the content of the public information campaign. If there is going to be one that is...

Mrsjay Mon 15-Oct-12 19:36:27

Where are we going grin Id imagine we would still be part of the UK in someway if we got independence but we won't I am happy to stay Alex is even allowing 16/17 yr olds to vote on it that is how confident he is of winning hmm

Petsinmyputridpudenda Mon 15-Oct-12 19:36:44

Dh has just found out he has Scottish parents ( put up for adoption at birth) so Scotland has to stay united with us till he explores his 'hOmeland' this seems to mean eating lots of shortbread and drinking whiskey while planning trips there.

LemonWOOOOsse Mon 15-Oct-12 19:37:16

I'm in North East England - our local news tonight was full of 'What will happen if Scotland becomes independent?' and the impact it would have on the NE economy. Apparantly firms that would have settled in North East England will be 'lured' over the border by the offer of lower taxes etc. hmm

I felt like calling in to say but look at all the jobs it'll create building Hadrian's Wall back up wink

<disclaimer - I LOVE Scottish people - have relatives in Bo' Ness, am well jell about the Pandas and get a Broons or Oor Wullie Book every Christmas>

Mrsjay Mon 15-Oct-12 19:38:00

Does anyone know if there will be a cut off for voter turnout like there was before where if not enough voters turn up then it doesn't coun

There will probably be some sort of majority voters thing before they can decide and it is just a vote for a vote isn't it

BionicEmu Mon 15-Oct-12 19:38:36

If Scotland become independent and don't join the EU does that mean that if I visit up there I'll get all my VAT back?

Disclaimer: I have no idea how the whole tax thing works, I just know that when I went to Iceland I could claim all my sales tax (or whatever they call it) back as they aren't part of the EU.

laughinggnome Mon 15-Oct-12 19:41:37

I don`t mind one way or another BUT I would like the Scots to have a choice.

Then perhaps the Scots that bang on about some old king who rampaged against the dude with the blue face paint however many years will finally shush about the whole sorry affair.

I do not however feel as an English person that I need a vote because if they gain independence and it all goes wrong they will bang on about it being our fault for the next 200 years.

laughinggnome Mon 15-Oct-12 19:43:39

* Years ago

Mrsjay Mon 15-Oct-12 19:44:54

dude with the blue face paint however many years will finally shush about the whole sorry affair.

WHO ? Mel Gibson wink

Daddyshambles Mon 15-Oct-12 19:46:01

I'm Scottish and I'm all in favour of independence providing we can untie the country and tow it a thousand miles to the south where the weather is better. Otherwise I'm staying in the UK.

grin Daddyshambles

Brains (Welsh brewery) had an advertising campaign like that a few years ago - it featured a map with Wales in the middle of the Caribbean! Awesome idea.

Euphemia Mon 15-Oct-12 19:51:03

Oooh Daddy great idea - can we leave Salmond somewhere in the North Sea? (Azkaban?)

now that idea I could vote for, Daddyshambles. Otherwise I am also for staying put!

Mrsjay Mon 15-Oct-12 19:51:59



Mrsjay Mon 15-Oct-12 19:52:48

I think the scots would fit well in the west indies

Mrsjay Mon 15-Oct-12 19:52:57

OOO seychelles

I'm sure there's an oilrig somewhere in the N sea that we could dump Salmond on.

Euphemia Mon 15-Oct-12 20:01:44

My dad does a great impression of a Jamaican. blush

LittleFrieda Mon 15-Oct-12 20:04:53

I'd like Scotland to vote to remain in the UK, overwhelmingly, and then for England and Wales to have a referendum and for us to vote, overwhelmingly, to break up with Scotland. Sorry, Scotland, it's not you, it's me. Then after a lot of crying, we could decide to give it another whirl, so long as they stop with their complaining in whining nasal tones.

LittleFrieda Mon 15-Oct-12 20:07:53

I'd also like to break things off with Middlesbrough. grin

Apart from emotional reasons, what are the practical arguments in favour of independence?

Euphemia Mon 15-Oct-12 20:20:16

Do we have to take Cumbernauld with us?

Knowsabitabouteducation Mon 15-Oct-12 20:23:08

I am Scottish and very definitely a Unionist. I can't think of anything in favour of independence.

Euphemia Mon 15-Oct-12 20:25:05

They seem to think we'll turn into a Norway, or a Switzerland. confused

I don't see it myself - I think we'd end up very exposed, like Ireland or Iceland.

bureni Mon 15-Oct-12 20:25:07

I can, its called Iron Bru horrible stuff.

bureni Mon 15-Oct-12 20:29:33

If Scotland becomes independent are the English going to keep sending them Buckfast (physco juice), you see I have always known it was a mind control inducing drink sent north to keep the natives restless. I firmly believe the sale of Buckfast wine is the cause of all the problems grin

scarlettsmummy2 Mon 15-Oct-12 20:31:38

Scotland could not afford to be independant. Was there not some report recently that less than 10% of scots put in more than than they take out? They need westminster money, so independence isn't an option.

LittleFrieda Mon 15-Oct-12 20:32:48

Euphemia - Ireland and Iceland are entirely different.species. Ireland are enjoying the self-flagellation in repaying their perilous debts. Iceland said fuck you, we're wiping the slate. I suspect Scotland would behave more like Iceland.

Euphemia Mon 15-Oct-12 20:34:00

Fair points, Frieda - I was just using examples the SNP had held up as success stories in the past, but which they don't mention any more!

I find the whole thing very interesting (my grandmother is Scottish but has lived south of the border for the last 50 years or so, and my FIL's family live in Berwick) but I don't know much about the arguments for and against.

ChunkyPickle Mon 15-Oct-12 20:38:04

If they really want to go, they by all means let them go (afterall, England and Scotland became united by agreement.. sorta... so no reason that agreement can't change) - The figures I've seen suggest that they can probably manage it (assuming they keep north sea oil)

I will note that many small countries seem to go for some kind of national service which might not be fun for young Scots, but then they're not really in danger of being invaded by anyone so perhaps you'll escape that smile

bureni Mon 15-Oct-12 20:39:24

Ireland never had a choice since the place is practically governed from Brussels nowadays due to the overspending and lack of faith in the joke Irish government and banks. Ireland will recover as soon as the oil starts flowing from its oil wells which could be sooner than we think.

MmeLindor Mon 15-Oct-12 20:43:45

I am Scottish and am not in favour of independence.

We can't afford the infrastructure (as someone mentioned already) and it would be terribly complicated - what about the currency, would we need our own army, we would have to negotiate trade agreements...

Aside from that, I identify myself as 'British' and don't want to lose that.

MajesticWhine Mon 15-Oct-12 20:44:55

I would be interested to know the economic facts about how much Scotland relies on tax revenue from the rest of the UK, and whether an independent Scotland could be sustainable, given its current levels of spending on welfare and education.
From an emotional point of view, I would rather keep the UK together. I love Scotland, and have Scottish ancestry.

Abzs Mon 15-Oct-12 20:44:59

I'm rather disappointed that there won't be a second question. As things stand, I don't think I can say yes, but I don't think a flat no is right either.

The phrase I heard (I forget where) is "No is not a vote for the status quo".

Actually, have they decided who gets a vote on this? I'm not Scottish, but I live here. What about Scottish people who don't live here?

prettybird Mon 15-Oct-12 20:47:59

All/only those on the electoral register in Scotland (or going to be, in the case of 16 & 17 year olds) will be able to vote, regardless of nationality.

Adversecamber Mon 15-Oct-12 20:50:34

I work with 3 Scots, one wants independence and is not far off painting himself blue and cutting off a few sassenach heads. One wants the UK to stay as it is but his dad was a tory MP so guessing come influence and one is indifferent.

So having discussed it with all three of them at some time or another I am totally unsure.

Groovee Mon 15-Oct-12 20:52:14

No. I have grave concerns as to how we would cope.

forgetmenots Mon 15-Oct-12 20:55:38

Yes. Might stop a lot of the bile (from both sides). Will be voting.
Not sure how much economics the people saying we can't afford it have read. I've yet to see figures confirming or denying that, and until I do I won't be making any sweeping statements about it... hmm

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 20:56:26

I'm Scottish. I live in Scotland. I would like Scotland to be independent.

If this thread's still going on tomorrow I'll come back and argue my reasons: I'm too tired tonight.

I do want to point out that Trump and Salmond are far from best buddies. Trump is majorly unhappy about the possibility of wind turbines being built in Aberdeenshire and appears to blame the government here.

SNP policy has been for votes at 16 for as long as I can remember. Allowing them the vote in the referendum is consistency with policy, rather than any expression of feeling secure about the outcome.

OwedToAutumn Mon 15-Oct-12 21:08:16

scarletsmummy, I think you'll find that statistic is true of all of the UK. Remember the top 1% of earners pay 28% of the tax.

Snog Mon 15-Oct-12 21:16:12

Im in favour of independence for Scotland as English students could then go to uni ther without paying fees.

I think the scots enjoy many benefits that the English do not eg free university and free prescriptions and I think
This is unfair.

I think if Scotland want to be independent then they should do it. From what I've gleaned (not a huge amount I must add) on the subject, their infrastructure is unlikely to be able to sustain itself without 'british' money.

Although I would be happy to be proved wrong.

I am Scottish, in an ideal world I'd like an Independent Scotland. I think that if we concentrate on ourselves as a country we'd be better off overall.

In reality though, although we have a history of being able to fend for ourselves, with our current government/bunch of plonkers in charge I think that we'd end up worse off than Greece.

Snog, if Scotland was independent then English students would still have to pay fees here. If anything they would then qualify as 'foreign' students.

Scots are lucky to have free prescriptions/Uni ... but when you see how poor our infrastructure is, and the opportunities that are open to most then you wouldn't begrudge it.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 21:28:48

I don't think that's right. Because NI students are applying for Irish nationality to get free tuition at Scots unis because European nations get that benefit. Is that not right?

By infrastructure do you mean roads? Or do you mean all infrastructure?

LynetteScavo Mon 15-Oct-12 21:29:16

If Scotland became independent, the SNP would seek to see the removal of nuclear weapons from the Clyde. A suitable, alternative location for the nuclear deterrent would need to be found. So Scotland, and (for a while) the UK would have no nuclear deterrents. Fine by me.

bureni Mon 15-Oct-12 21:31:27

The English and Welsh can also apply for an Irish passport and thousands do.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 21:32:17

I didn't know that, bureni.

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 21:36:10

I'm Scottish and I want to stay part of the union, unless as suggested we can break away and float to the Carribean. I can't abide Alex Salmond and would like to dump him off on an oil platform far, far away..

ThreadWatcher Mon 15-Oct-12 21:39:32

Simple answer to the op question - NO!

MorrisZapp Mon 15-Oct-12 21:40:54

Scottish here. My family are diehard Nats, but I'm veering towards voting no.

I think that voting no will be a bit like voting Tory - nobody will admit to it, so the polls will be worthless. If I do vote no, I'll allow my family to assume otherwise.

squoosh Mon 15-Oct-12 21:41:52

Euphemia - Ireland and Iceland are entirely different.species. Ireland are enjoying the self-flagellation in repaying their perilous debts. Iceland said fuck you, we're wiping the slate. I suspect Scotland would behave more like Iceland.

Yes Ireland's having a grand old time repaying their debts. hmm
I highly doubt Scotland would act as Iceland did. Sorry.

bureni Mon 15-Oct-12 21:43:08

JollyJackOLantern, if you have an Irish parent, grandparent or great grandparent then you can apply for an Irish passport regardless of what part of the world you are from.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 21:43:55

You do realise that pretty much nobody will vote SNP if Scotland gets independence? Voting yes is the best way to be rid of Salmond grin

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 21:45:48

Thank you, bureni

FannyFifer Mon 15-Oct-12 21:47:01

Absolutely in favour of Independence.

Why should any country be governed by another?

Thank goodness for devolution we have been protected from the Tories privatising our NHS for one.

We can do even more with Independence.

BirdyBedtime Mon 15-Oct-12 21:48:16

Absolutely not. Scottish through and through and no no no. I haven't heard one reasoned or non emotional argument that would convince me otherwise - in what way would it make things better for the average Scot? Too many questions that I fear will not be answered in a balanced way during the campaign as everything will be presented in either a for or against slantt.

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 21:51:18

jolly - I had an interesting conversation with a pal re this, she hadn't stopped to think that there would be other political parties. If we did go with independence, she thought it would be the SNP for gads!

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 21:54:00

This is a really stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway... would Labour and the Tories stay in Scotland if it did get independence?

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 21:54:14

and the Lib Dems etc

Mollie272 Mon 15-Oct-12 21:54:36

I'm very proud to be Scottish and British.
I will definitely be voting NO.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 21:55:10

Yup, lots of people think like that.

"I'm going to vote no because I don't want to be stuck with Salmond".

The SNP is held together by the belief in Scottish independence. There are many natural labourites, a few tories, some communists, etc. I think many would start to vote other ways. But there probably would be a space in Scottish politics for another left-y party. Lab are getting too far right and SSP etc are a bit strange for the main body of the SNP.

FannyFifer Mon 15-Oct-12 21:56:47

Enough people voted for SNP and Salmond to give a majority in the Scottish parliament, obviously not that disliked eh.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 21:57:30

I don't know what the tories would do. There was some discussion in the last leadership contest that the tories would 'rebrand' in a way that was more acceptable to more Scots. That candidate didn't win, the more traditionalist viewpoint did. So I'm not sure what their plan is.

I think Lab and the Libs would stay without too many changes. I don't know what would happen to the SNP.

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 21:59:21

Salmond got booed in Glasgow at the Olympian parade. I think that's quite telling.

I'm glad that wasn't a silly question blush

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 22:02:14

There are no silly questions, just wish people would ask more!

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 22:04:28

Alright so no one really knows about what the other political parties would do, but they'd probably stay.

Currency- no one's sure?

EU- no one's sure?

Scottish passports? Wouldn't that cost a hell of a lot of money?

Would the government have to buy all the UK stuff (like hospitals and schools)?

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 22:04:40

You did ask blush

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:05:23

It would be interesting to ask folk what actions the SNP have taken in government that they disagree with.

I don't disagree that Salmond is a bit marmite-y. Lots of people dislike him. Lots of people like him. If you ever see him walk down a street you will be amazed at how many people take time out of their day to shake his hand.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:06:01

Hospitals and schools are already devolved.

LittleFrieda Mon 15-Oct-12 22:06:14

Squoosh: there's nothing actually wrong with letting your over-inflated banking sector collapse (Iceland). I would actually have been in favour of that for us. Iceland have been upheld by the IMF as a brilliant model for post apocalypse recovery. What isn't so honourable is the fact that the bulk of the cost of Iceland's collapse was borne by foreign creditors. Whereas Ireland suffers herself for the sins of her bankers. I'm telling you now, Scotland would behave as Iceland.

prettybird Mon 15-Oct-12 22:06:33

Why do you say the hospitals and schools are "UK stuff" hmm?

The NHS and the schools systems have always been separate.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 15-Oct-12 22:06:41

Another yes here (and entitled to vote)

Remember we are voting for independence, not for SNP or Salmond.

To whoever asked about army, piece on BBC here:

forgetmenots Mon 15-Oct-12 22:06:49

UK stuff like hospitals and schools? Believe that people pay tax in Scotland too... And it's exactly that kind of thing that makes me want to vote yes.

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 22:07:19

The Curriculum for Excellence for one, JollyJack.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:07:47

Schools are owned by local authorities, hospitals by health boards. Neither have anything to do with Westminster.

SNP have said they would keep the pound sterling.

Scotland would try to join the European Union. And would likely be accepted, but this is obv not confirmed.

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 22:08:11

You said there were no silly questions! I didn't know that.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:10:02

Annunziata CFE was put in motion BEFORE the SNP gained power: here

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:11:01

There are no silly questions, if you hadn't asked you wouldn't know now.

Trying my best to answer to the best of my knowledge. Will try to find you some info to read.

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 22:11:18

It says on their website that they launched it though-

squoosh Mon 15-Oct-12 22:11:31

I'm telling you now, Scotland would behave as Iceland.

You're free to tell me what you like.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:12:25

here is a Yes Scotland factsheet. Obviously biased, but answers qs re currency etc.

twooter Mon 15-Oct-12 22:13:16

In Scotland, but def want to stay part of the UK.

Not sure how anyone is expected to vote when all the monetary stuff/eu/defence etc is undecided. Surely there should be a proposed deal first, that is then voted for or against. ( still no)

I take it the 17 and 16 year olds were included as they are possibly more likely to vote with their hearts rather than their heads.

Re free tuition fees, I don't think any scots expect that to continue for long.

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 22:14:58

That was me that said that, and no there aren't, and as Jack has pointed out there is a huge question mark re the EU, and don't get me started on the CfE, that alone scares me that no one seems to know what is happening with the new exams etc and as my DS is one of the guinea pigs , I have huge concerns.

FergusSingsTheBlues Mon 15-Oct-12 22:16:16

Economically? daft idea. we dont have themoney or the expertise.
Culturally? Brilliant idea....let hope people dont just vote emotively or we´d be stuffed.

If you lived in a country where maps published for surveys, even irrelevant stuff like house prices and crime routinely show a truncated island shuddering to a halt at above carlisle, then you´d understand why many scots would love to leave.

To be fair, the UK is very anglocentric and we get annoyed then chippy then obnoxiously anti english. We get bored of the constant "englandnwales". That´s when scots turn into assholes.

The anti english sentiment in scotland is husband has never had any attitude - he´s a northerner, but if you have a southern english accent, yep you will get grief. Its shameful.

squoosh Mon 15-Oct-12 22:17:05

Squoosh: there's nothing actually wrong with letting your over-inflated banking sector collapse

Yes thanks, I am aware of that and think Ireland should have allowed it to happen.

Annunziata Mon 15-Oct-12 22:17:09

My DD is a guinea pig too sad Thank you for the link, I'll read that tomorrow. Goodnight!

Jinsei Mon 15-Oct-12 22:17:26

I am not really in favour or against independence tbh. I think it's a decision for the Scottish people. I do think they'll be worse off if they go it alone, but if that's a risk they want to take, then fair enough - it's their right to take it.

I'm glad that they're having the vote, and I think it's important for the debate to take place. But ultimately, I think the "no" campaign will win.

JennyPiccolo Mon 15-Oct-12 22:20:21

Yes. And I like the snp. Nicola sturgeon is a great female role model. She must be one of the hardest working politicians ever.

Salmond does my tits in a bit but he has time for everyone. He once sent me and a bunch of other people a video message when we were doing a charity event wishing us luck. I don't think you'd get Dave doing that for a bunch of nobodies chucking a gig on for charity.

Anyway, that hasn't much to do with the independence debate. I'm voting yes because I don't think more democracy can be bad. My vote is worth 0.4% of a vote just now. There's no incentive for the Tories to be good to us, they get no support here anyway. If we vote no things aren't going to get any better for a long, long time.

fidelma Mon 15-Oct-12 22:24:34

We live in Scotland and WE DO NOT WANT INDEPENDANCE! Alex Salmond is a nutter.He does not have a clue.However I am sacred that he will convince alot of peolpe to leave. ( they will not understand the implications)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 15-Oct-12 22:26:44

fidelma which implications?

FannyFifer Mon 15-Oct-12 22:28:06

Maybe you could learn to spell independence Fidelma. Might be a start.

What policies that the SNP have introduced in Scotland to you disagree with?

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:29:49

Why is Alex Salmond a nutter?

Why do you think he wants Scotland to be independent? I heard someone on the radio today (poss Brian Taylor) saying that the SNP want independence out of a genuine belief that Scotland will be better off as an independent nation, rather than because of 'badness'.

JennyPiccolo Mon 15-Oct-12 22:32:01

Salmond et al have been supporting the cause for years before it was even the vaguest of possibilities. They are not 'career' politicians. These people had not a sniff of a chance at power when they became involved in politics.

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 22:35:09

See, this is where we as Scots go wrong .. being far too emotional and end up taking pretty crappy pot shots at each other because we may have different view points.

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:40:09

I'm actually surprised that folk have only managed to come up with one thing the snp have done in govt that they disagree with. Considering the snp have been in since 2007 with a majority since 2011 this is pretty impressive.

(I concede that CfE is quite a big one to disagree with that has caused a lot of consternation, but the ConDem govt have brought in an awful lot more hugely unpopular policies in their 2 years in power)

Feckbox Mon 15-Oct-12 22:43:39

I'm Scottish.
If the independent vote wins I am moving to England

JollyJackOLantern Mon 15-Oct-12 22:46:45


Feckbox Mon 15-Oct-12 22:49:50

because the worst thing about being Scottish is the anti English chip on the shoulderness of so many Scots. If we became independant they would be even more insufferable

forgetmenots Mon 15-Oct-12 22:50:18

CfE had cross-party support.

I don't like the potshots either whether its between Scots or across the border. But my concept of unity doesn't only extend to Lands End - I'm proud to be European and a world citizen. I would just like to be one on an equal footing. Can't believe that Scotland would be the only country in the world who couldn't do this. Very negative.

Feckbox Mon 15-Oct-12 22:50:51

And I think Alex Salmond is a numpty

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 22:53:37

Jack, strangely enough I disagree with the free prescriptions for all, and before others flame me, my family has had to deal with major illnesses, cancer etc which as you can imagine makes a daily walk to the pharmacy inevitable. I would like to have seen some of the money put into Dentistry/Orthodontics.

The CfE I disagree with along with the day dream of having smaller class sizes/ hours of PE etc. These would require new builds, to replace the majority of Victorian buildings, certainly the space is not readily available in Edinburgh.

forgetmenots Mon 15-Oct-12 22:53:41

Not a fan of Alex salmond either but that won't prevent me voting yes.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 15-Oct-12 22:54:40

feckbox much of the chip is because Scots have no say in much of the running of their country, and no say in which party governs the uk. Independence would solve that.

As for Salmond being a numpty, this is a vote for an independent Scotland, not a vote for Salmond/SNP in perpetuity.

Feckbox Mon 15-Oct-12 22:58:27

itsallgoing to be fine, i get that up to a point .But there's a huge section of the Scottish population who have a chip on their shoulder because the are lazy with a massive sense of entitlement without having to work and they are all for independance because they think they will get more while still doing feck all

Really? Where'd you get that from?!

Surely if we're independent then there won't be as much money to put into the coffers for the 'lazily' unemployed?

As we're far smaller than England we could have a truly means tested society which would be fairer.

Might be a pipe dream though....

JennyPiccolo Mon 15-Oct-12 23:01:41

Racist outbursts in this thread. Try to control yourselves.

Feckbox Mon 15-Oct-12 23:01:57

50 years of living and working in Scotland

forgetmenots Mon 15-Oct-12 23:03:28

Hear hear jennypiccolo.

nonameslefttouse Mon 15-Oct-12 23:03:59

I am glad the Scots are getting a vote, I truly hope once and for all that whatever is decided this whole issue is put to bed its just a shame it will take two years to do so

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 15-Oct-12 23:05:32

feckbox I sort of see where you are coming from. There is horrendous poverty in many of Scotland's cities, families where no one has worked for three generations. This a a huge and complex problem, and one that can best be solved in the long term by a Scottish government administering its own welfare.

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 23:05:58

Ya see, you try to have healthy debate and some one just has to come along to antagonise..

Feckbox Mon 15-Oct-12 23:10:55

who is antagonising?

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 23:23:06

Feckbox - I may have picked you up wrong, I don't agree with your sentiments re a huge portion of Scots being lazy but I do believe (if this what you meant) that some Scots do believe that things will magically get better once we win our "FREEDOM!!"

Agreed with kaumana.

I don't know where the 'lazy Scots' thing came from? It's not really justified in any way.

Feckbox Mon 15-Oct-12 23:31:12

I'm not being in the slightest antagonistic! I am just stating my own experience.

I am afraid I know a great many lazy Scots. Should I pretend I don't? I am often embarrassed at the anti English sentiments expressed by SOME Scottish people.

My 11 year old daughter has observed this in her own classmates and asked me, unprompted, yesterday, why so many Scottish people don't like English people. I find that extremely sad and i wish it were not the case.

I strenuously object to being accused of being antagonistic for stating , with sadness, what I have observed time and again.

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 23:35:41

agh, started typing a response but it's not worth it..

That's sad that you're in an area where there are people who feel like that. If you feel that it is as bad as you're saying it is, why don't you move to another area of Scotland where there isn't as many plebs with ridiculous attitides?

You'd find just as many south of the boarder who are as vehement about Scots unfortunately.

kaumana Mon 15-Oct-12 23:39:07

^^ what mrs said

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 15-Oct-12 23:40:15

I think a lot of the anti-English sentiment is actually misdirected anti-Westminster-Government sentiment based on the way successive governments have screwed over/ignored the Scots. I don't think there is that much anti-English sentiment though. I was bullied a wee bit in school for it, but more recently when working with young people in Glasgow it was never mentioned other than asking where I was fae.

Feckbox Mon 15-Oct-12 23:42:58

yes mrsc I daresay there are plenty south of the border with ridiculous views as well. But they are not clamouring for independence to escape from us.

I LOVE Scotland, I love the area where I live and work and really would not like to move. But I do despair at the attitude of many Scots . In particular the anti English sentiments. It's deeply embarrassing .

If you gave English people the choice to continue as the 'UK' or to get rid of Scotland there'd be an equal debate.

Some would be for, some would be against. They just haven't been given the choice as it's not quite the done thing to 'chuck' another country out. There'd be an uproar.

If it comes to it, and the majority want Scotland to leave and to function as a sole entity it's no skin off Englands nose. Would make little or no difference to them at all. So why would they bother getting fussed about it?

It affects each and every Scot, so of course we are getting fussed about it.

Scots despair at the attitudes of other Scots as well. They're commonly known as eejits or bampots.

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Mon 15-Oct-12 23:46:55

There are generations of English people who have never worked, so this isn't exclusive to Scotland. I'd say that there's less jobs in Scotland though, most of it is lovely highland. Nice to look at, shit for anything else.

I read recently that about 70% of the UK's woodland and forestry is in Scotland.

Doesn't leave much space for anything else eh?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 15-Oct-12 23:50:21

Actually, Scotland's doing OK jobs wise

You need to remember that Scotland has a teeny population so needs way less total jobs than england/wales

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 15-Oct-12 23:50:38
SundaeGirl Mon 15-Oct-12 23:55:15

I'm in favour of keeping the UK together. I've got a vote and I'll be voting No.

'Independence' campaigners in Scotland don't really seem to have understood basic economic realities. Keep the pound and the Bank of England will control the economy, set interest rates and respond to English inflation. Get the Euro and France/Germany/x many other nations will control the economy. What kind of independence is that?

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Mon 15-Oct-12 23:55:44

That's great! smile

HappyOrchid Mon 15-Oct-12 23:56:47

I don't mind, if the Scots people decide to be independant thats fine, if they want ot stay thats fine too.

Even if the vote gets the yes, I think it will fall apart administratively. Setting up their own tax departments with their own rules, setting up a brand new NHS of their own, Will they join the Euro? Will (what is left of UK) allow them to use £ as the currency, after all if it is really independent all these things are required. Or is it really Salmond grandstanding?

Losing jobs as the English govt. closes Cumbernauld and moves jobs back to England. In Westminster the claim is that Scotland is given large subsidies representing taxes raised and then the Scottish Assembly decides how to spend this, eg no tuition fees etc. BUT if they have to collect their own taxes and completely run the economy will they really be better off, or are they still factoring in tax rebates for North Sea Oil for the past howver long.

IMO this will fail more on a practical levle

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 00:02:49

happyorchid Scotland already has its own independent NHS!

As for the rest of the points, there is plenty of info out there.

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 00:06:13

I think it is sad (but typical of the ignorance of many some English about matters Scottish) that so many people don't realise that we have always had a separate NHS (the BBC occasionally remembers to say when mentioning reforms proposed by Westminster that they apply to the NHS in England and Wales hmm).

Legal systems and education systems have always been separate too (we don't have Ofsted for example - it's HMIE up here).

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 08:00:37

It really does bug me when BBC say some policy is going to be happening then doesn't say where it's applicable.

Have you seen [[ this]] ?

The bbc has a lot to answer for when it comes to anti-English feeling. Surely the weather is more important for those living in rural communities?

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 08:01:14
christmasmum Tue 16-Oct-12 08:26:26

I always find it interesting when people say that the Scottish are sponging off the rest if the UK. When you check the facts, every region of the UK is actually sponging off London and the South East. In fact Scotland's contribution to the GDP per capita is more than any other region excluding the two above! Link here wikipedia. I am English living in Scotland a d still undecided!

Trills Tue 16-Oct-12 08:33:03

Scotland is not actually going to go anywhere.

It'll still be up there <gestures vaguely>

People from England and Wales and NI can still go to Scotland just as easily, and vice versa.

I'm finding it hard to imagine what will actually be different. Is it just economics that I don't understand?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 08:42:18

Nothing will be different really. It's not like people vote yes, and then anything changes there and then. In the years post independence the countries will gradually diverge, based on the national ethos.

Scotland will become a more socialist leaning country, while rUK poor sods will be ruled by the Tories.

Mrsjay Tue 16-Oct-12 08:53:51

Do we have to take Cumbernauld with us?

<snort> no cos the 'big asda' is in cumbernauld I do like a 'big asda shop' Euphemia

Euphemia Tue 16-Oct-12 09:01:00

Lol @ "big Asda" grin

Mrsjay Tue 16-Oct-12 09:03:17

Lol @ "big Asda"

grin oh and there isa Dunnes too no we must keep cumbernauld get rid of the mermaid thing they have on the motorway she is scary especially when she is lit up

redlac Tue 16-Oct-12 09:04:36

The English Gov at closing Cumbernauld???? But the Irn Bru factory is there!!!! I can feel an uprising starting

PostBellumBugsy Tue 16-Oct-12 09:04:51

I'm not really bothered one way or the other from an emotional perspective. I can't help feeling that Scotland would be exposed economically - but that is just my hunch - I haven't seen any economic figures or statistics to back up my hunch.

redlac Tue 16-Oct-12 09:05:18

Are not at

MrsBucketxx Tue 16-Oct-12 09:05:46

they can be independant if they want but thats totally with no financial help from the rest of the uk at all. they can have their proportion of the national debt too.

the north sea will still be owned by uk not scotland.

scots cant have it all ways.

Mrsjay Tue 16-Oct-12 09:11:32

But the Irn Bru factory is there!!!! I can feel an uprising starting


JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 09:12:28

MrsBucket, why do you think Scotland should take a proportion of the debt but NO proportion of North Sea oil. Surely a proportion of each would be more logical?

TiAAAAARGHo Tue 16-Oct-12 09:24:09

I can honestly say I'm not bothered if Scotland wants to be independent. I've always liked scotland when visiting, but i believe people have a right to self-determine. It will be very interesting watch.

On the tuition fees point - English students will ny har to pay Scottish fees on the event that Scotland does join the EU (which will not occur automatically but will probably be fast tracked) becauseEU countries have to treat students from other EU countries just like home students. Hence why getting an Irish passport gets round the fees too.

The rules on joining the EU require all new joiners to adopt the Euro, so unless there is a treaty change Scotland will have to change its currency (though this may not occur immediately, there may be a grace period).

TiAAAAARGHo Tue 16-Oct-12 09:25:26

*not have

Adversecamber Tue 16-Oct-12 09:27:59

DH said of course Cameron really wants to get rid of Scotland because it is a Labour/SNP stronghold so less people to vote against him. A bit of a double bluff situation.

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 10:32:10

The Tories have no incentive to keep Scotland's voting population. No Westminster government ever have or ever will. If you are Scottish your vote doesn't count.

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 10:39:28

I'm sorry, there's no way on God's green earth that David Cameron wants to go down in history as the Tory Prime Minister who was in office when the Union was dismantled.

Seriously, I'm sure 'The Union is a Very Good Thing' is pretty high on the list of things that Tories believe.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 11:05:47

Speaking of the way Scotland votes, did anyone happen to spot the picture that just happened to be on the wall behind our two leaders as they signed this historic agreement?

LittenTree Tue 16-Oct-12 11:09:13

I believe the reason there might be anti-Scottish feelings in England are not the fault of the Scottish people at all, really. It's because of issues like the West Lothian Question (I think that's right) where Scottish MPs are given the right to vote on matters that only affect England whereas the opposite is not true.

Of course that has the potential to spark some resentment. Similarly, the Scottish decision to not charge uni fees to Scottish and EU (but not English) DC- well, someone's paying for that and it isn't necessarily just the Scottish taxpayer, is it? Free prescriptions, free care for the elderly,anyone?

All of this was permitted by the government in Westminster, in just the same way that should Scotland vote for independence, I think we can be sure that it'll come with a huge subsidy from the English taxpayers, the ability to stay within Sterling (and haven't the potential problems associated with fiscal but not political union been written large enough just recently?)- and to basically go on cherry picking the 'good' bits. The English just know that a government that 'allows' the West Lothian issue to stand will also see the English taxpayer paying for Salmond's vanity project.

Of course, a principle reason to keep the Scots 'sweet' has been North Sea oil- it will be interesting to see what happens there, especially now output is apparently declining.

Personally, I'd have no problem whatsoever with Scotland gaining full independence from the union, BUT I'd only support the idea if it were true, full, stand-alone independence. And there, I think the problem lies. In the current financial crisis, I believe Scotland would soon find itself in deep trouble, financially, as would places like Cornwall should they lose the SE England taxpayer subsidy.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 11:13:24


The Scots are voting for total independence, or not. There is no middle ground. In the case of independence there would be no subsidies to an independent Scotland. Of course there would be agreements on things like borders, but that it s common between countries.

The only place where a link would remain is currency until Scotland joins the Euro.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 11:14:57

Also, the currently subsidies are calculated in exactly the same way as the rest of the UK. The Scottish (and for some things the Welsh) governments just choose to spend money in different ways.

PostBellumBugsy Tue 16-Oct-12 11:22:09

Litten - I don't think most people have a clue about the consitutional point of the West Lothian issue!

The UK is a country of nations. There has been national differences for a long, long time - not dissimilar to the Basques in Spain, the Bretons in France, the Czechs & the Slovaks, the Shias & the Kurds etc etc etc.

How many jokes about the Scots Man, The Welshman, The Englishman & The Irishman are there? Sometimes we get along fine & sometimes antipathy springs up.

On a one to one level most people are going to get on fine with anyone from any of the nations, but some people are full of prejudice & the media loves nothing more than a good fight. Any bad feeling will come from and be stoked by the media (and a few sad bigotted loons).

LittenTree Tue 16-Oct-12 11:28:43

Fine- can you link to the wording and detail of The Question That Will Be Put To The Scottish People?

The bit that states, categorically, that 'there will be no subsidies'?

Consils Tue 16-Oct-12 11:29:31

Don't the Scots have nuclear facilities for energy? Would England lose the benefit of these, or am I being fuddled?

blibblibs Tue 16-Oct-12 11:31:04

It would be a bad day for the whole of Britian I think.

I'm Scottish, living in England and think of myself as British, on a personal note, what do I then become?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 11:32:43

littentree No I can't. Independence means independence, a completely separate country. There would be no mechanism whereby RUK could subsidise an independent Scotland.

Does the Westminster government currently subsidise other independent countries?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 11:34:22

this subsidy thing is rubbish, you know. scotland pays marginally more into the pot than it takes out, when you take into account oil and crown revenue.

also, the idea that we have to set up our own NHS is a joke... our NHS is separate from England's, it's one of the reasons why we aren't quite so up shit creek as England is.

it's tricky, all this, there is a lot of bigotry on this site and it's going to get more and more ugly as we get nearer to the referendum. i hope MNHQ will take a position on it, after all they are quite strong on myth-busting in general.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 11:34:40

So hold on - Scots should expect 'subsidies' from England, should England expect them from Scotland? Or, as MrsBucket charmingly proposed, should Scotland take its fair share of the UK national debt whilst England keeps Scotland's natural resources?

No one in Scotland whether they are pro or anti independence expects or wants subsidy from anyone. That kind of chat only fuels resentment an isn't helpful.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 11:34:52

Consils There are currently a few nuclear power plants in Scotland, but once they reach the end of their life they will hopefully not be replaced.

I'm sure Scotland will sell electricity to England if required (and vice versa)

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 11:35:18

couldn't agree more Aitch.

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Tue 16-Oct-12 11:43:57

Maybe the Scottish Government should give the English one a few tips! I hope there's not as many people up North who are relying on foodbanks to feed their children. The English Government are a screw up.

shesariver Tue 16-Oct-12 11:47:24

happyorchid no need to worry about the cots and practicaliites of Scotland setting up their own NHS, this already exists! And we dont have a "Scottish Assembly" either.

Regarding the vote Im really not sure how I will vote, mostly I would like to stay as part of the UK but it gets so tedious reading all the anti-Scottish comments that spring up in the media, forums etc whenever Scotland is mentioned that eventually enough may be enough. For goodness sake there was a deepy nasty and unpleasnt one here last night full of xenophobic rubbish that was allowed to stand.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 11:47:36

LadyMary unfortunately that is not a devolved issue, so it's currently pretty shit here too.

shesariver Tue 16-Oct-12 11:48:45

costs even not cots grin

LittenTree Tue 16-Oct-12 11:59:37

'No one in Scotland whether they are pro or anti independence expects or wants subsidy from anyone. That kind of chat only fuels resentment an isn't helpful.'

It's not what's 'expected' or what's 'wanted' it's what IS.

Do you seriously believe Scotland can 'afford' its free HE, its free prescriptions, its free care for the elderly based on what Scottish taxpayers alone contribute? And I have made the point that the same argument holds true for the Cornish, for example.

The North Sea Oil thing is actually a bit of a red herring. The profits of same won't be flowing freely into Scottish pockets, like they don't flow into English pockets now. They disappear into the maw of multinational oil companies, the ones who put up billions over the year exploring for oil and then pumping it once they find it. So while Scotland might then 'own' the oil itself, they can't 'own' (or afford) to pay out the costs of pumping it. If I were a nascent Scottish government, I certainly wouldn't be pinning my hopes on such a bonanza!

I also suspect that the English government wouldn't, for fear of pissing off a lot of English voters, allow Scotland to retain Sterling without political union. And yes, of course the Scots will need to pay out their 'share' of the national debt. Why wouldn't they?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 12:07:56

Do you seriously believe Scotland can 'afford' its free HE, its free prescriptions, its free care for the elderly based on what Scottish taxpayers alone contribute

Yes. Scotland puts more into the pot than it takes out.

Scotland has about 8.4% of the UK population and gets 9.3% of UK spending. However, Scotland also generates 9.6% of UK tax revenues.

We generate over £1,000 more tax per person than the average across the UK. Over each of the last 6 years Scotland’s finances have been stronger than the UK. And over the past 30 years, we have had a relative surplus of £19 billion.

The North Sea Oil thing is actually a bit of a red herring. The profits of same won't be flowing freely into Scottish pockets, like they don't flow into English pockets now. They disappear into the maw of multinational oil companies, the ones who put up billions over the year exploring for oil and then pumping it once they find it. So while Scotland might then 'own' the oil itself, they can't 'own' (or afford) to pay out the costs of pumping it

Over the 30 years from 2010/11 to 2040/41, based on the UK's independent Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) forecast, cumulative North Sea revenues would be around £108 billion (2010/11 prices). This represents approximately £3.6 billion a year.

I also suspect that the English government wouldn't, for fear of pissing off a lot of English voters, allow Scotland to retain Sterling without political union

Pound sterling is a tradeable currency. That means that any country in the world can choose to use it. It does not require Westminster's permission.

And yes, of course the Scots will need to pay out their 'share' of the national debt

Of course! I have never seen anyone suggest otherwise!

(for convenience my links are from a pro independence site, feel free to independently confirm their accuracy)

pmTea Tue 16-Oct-12 12:09:03

N Sea Oil - yes

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 12:19:16

Of course we will take our share of the national debt. But it was suggested that England should retain Scotland's natural resources an the wealth attached. And Scots were then told they wouldn't get everything THEIR own way?! The gall...

Thanks Itsallgoingtobefine - saved me a long post there.

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 12:23:42

Only one thing's for sure, both sides are going to indulge in some dirty fighting leading up to 2014. Also, I think referendum fatigue has already set in for a lot of people.

SusanneLinder Tue 16-Oct-12 12:33:34

I am really really fed up of people saying that Scotland cannot survive financially after independence.This is nonsense.Leading economists have looked into the question and agreed that of course they could.In Fact David Cameron (armed with the figures) has stopped even using that as an issue.hmm.

I dont get this "stronger together" crap.

What I WOULD like now that the referendum has been signed , is for the PROPER arguments to be laid bare and lets see what an independent Scotland would look like.

For the record-I am anti Westminster, not anti English grin

grimbletart Tue 16-Oct-12 12:34:06

The worst thing would be if the vote splits 50/50. Whichever way it goes the best is for it to be decisive.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 12:34:14

one thing's for sure, both sides are going to indulge in some dirty fighting leading up to 2014

Sadly I think you are right.

Interestingly though those in favour seem to be focusing on a positive campaign (why independence would be good for scotlwnd) , whereas those against seem to be far more negative (anti Salmond, anti snp, how will Scotland survive without English subsidies etc)

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 12:43:08

Well I suppose if you are trying to persuade people to take a leap into the unknown you are more likely to win people around if you can present them with a positive vision of an independent Scotland will be. The anti Independence lot need to persuade those who are on the fence not to leap and therefore are going to use any tactic they can to scare people into voting no.

LittenTree Tue 16-Oct-12 12:44:32

It's all a bit academic, really. The Scots won't vote for independence, will they?

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 12:46:52

Well, we don't know that. All the polls said we wouldn't vote for devolution.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 12:47:20

If the debate unfolds as it has in this thread, I think they might.

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 12:47:29

Or for a majority government.

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 12:48:21

I haven't heard a good argument for the union yet.

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 12:48:54

If a referendum was held tomorrow I don't think people would vote in favour of independence. However two years is a long time in politics, I don't think either camp should be complacent.

mumwithtwokids Tue 16-Oct-12 13:02:23

I have a question - if Scotland do become independent then who picks up the tab for the bailout of RBS?

LemonBreeland Tue 16-Oct-12 13:07:12

I am English and living in Scotland. I do not want independence.

I would most likely move back to England if Scotland became independent. DH is Scottish and also doesn't want independence.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 13:08:06

mumwithtwokids I would guess that Scotland would take a share of the debt based on the proportion of RBS' operations based in Scotland.

As Andrew Hughes Hallett. Professor of Economics at St Andrew’s University, put it, speaking on Radio Scotland.

"The real point here, and this is the real point, is by international convention, when banks which operate in more than one country get into these sorts of conditions, the bailout is shared in proportion to the area of activities of those banks, and therefore it’s shared between several countries. In the case of the RBS, I’m not sure of the exact numbers, but roughly speaking 90% of its operations are in England and 10% are in Scotland, the result being, by that convention, therefore, that the rest of the UK would have to carry 90% of the liabilities of the RBS and Scotland 10%. And the precedent for this, if you want to go into the details, are the Fortis Bank and the Dexia Bank, which are two banks which were shared between France, Belgium and the Netherlands, at the same time were bailed out in proportion by France, Belgium and the Netherlands."

CrystalQueen Tue 16-Oct-12 13:13:56

The prescription thing - yes we get free prescriptions, but that means we don't get other stuff. It's not like the English are somehow being ripped off. We have a health budget, priorities are set and paid for. It's no different to one health trust in England deciding to fund a treatment and the neighbouring trust not funding it.

mumwithtwokids Tue 16-Oct-12 13:14:55

Thanks for the answer ItsAllGoingToBeFine.

Saltire Tue 16-Oct-12 13:16:09

I don't think Scotland needs worry about oil, tax etc, the thing it has lots and lots of is water.grin

It can be sold Westminster wink

SusanneLinder Tue 16-Oct-12 13:16:36

I haven't heard a good argument for the union yet.

We're better together-allegedly grin

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 13:18:26

grin SusanneLinder

I really like my neighbours. I wouldn't want them to be my landlords.

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 13:21:26

The argument about the free prescriptions is that the evidence is apparently (I've not seen it) that it actually saves money over time. People who needed prescriptions were not choosing not to get them and then presenting later on with more expensive-to-treat symptoms.

And because we have a separate NHS we were able to analyse that and come to the conclusion it would be cheaper long term for the overall health budget if prescriptions were free.

Like Lemon, I am English, living in Scotland. I love it here, and hope to stay here for many, many years - but the thought of Independance worries me a lot. I cannot see the benefit, in international terms, of leaving a bigger country, with political and economic clout that we share as part of that country, to become a much smaller with correspondingly much less clout internationally.

I'm afraid I don't trust Alex Salmond - I think he talks a good fight, but it is a lot easier to say what you would do if you were the PM/First Minister of an independant Scotland, and what you could achieve for your country, than it is to do these things in reality. To be honest, the same could be said to apply to any politician who dreams of leading an Independant Scotland.

I also believe that the legal advice that Alec Salmond has received, has said that Scotland wouldn't automatically remain part of the EU, and that if Scotland were to want to be in the EU, it would have to apply as a new country, and would have to fulfil all the economic criteria, which it might well struggle to do (as I understand it). Also, as a new member country of the EU, Scotland would have to take on the Euro, so could not, as the Yes info page linked to earlier claims, keep the pound. If the legal advisers had told Alec Salmond that an independant Scotland would automatically remain part of the EU (unless it chose to opt out), I firmly believe he would have made a big noise, publically, about this.

pinotnoirprincess Tue 16-Oct-12 13:30:19

Yes I am in favour. I care not for the pros and cons and the conflicting arguments on the outcome. If you do not want to be part of the union, then go. In fact I think if you gave the English the referendum, I think they would be more likely to vote you out than you would yourselves. Quite frankly I think we English are a bit sick of the rap we get over everyone's troubles and how everything is our fault. I think that we English, or we remaining Brits would welcome the opportunity to shut our borders and concentrate on getting our own act together for a few decades. That's not a racist comment, everyone who is here now is entitled to be here, we should just spend a bit of time being nationalist and concentrating on our own for a change. It's like being in a relationship where one person moans at you the whole time, in the end you begin to wonder if actually you wouldn't be better off if that person put their money where their mouth is and left.

Viviennemary Tue 16-Oct-12 13:31:43

For what it's worth I don't think it will happen. Or else it will be a very very watered down version which won't make any difference. It's an interesting point - whether or not Scotland will remain part of the EU or will have to apply again as a new country. And if they do have to apply will they have to adopt the Euro. Can't see that working very well. But maybe they would be entitled to EU subsidies so perhaps it would be an advantage.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 13:35:12

Wow pinotnoirprincess. Alex Salmond should hire you.

Enjoy 'concentrating on your own for a change'... hmm

shesariver Tue 16-Oct-12 13:40:06

I think that we English, or we remaining Brits would welcome the opportunity to shut our borders and concentrate on getting our own act together for a few decades

Wow, just wow.

pinotnoirprincess Tue 16-Oct-12 13:40:24


I'm really confused. Isn't Scotland voting for independence from the UK so they can concentrate on their own or are they doing it for some larger greater good to benefit the developing world?

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 13:43:18

They are doing it to be on an equal footing with the rest of the world, that governs their own affairs. So it's a more internationalist perspective than you give it credit for.

I don't really understand how you think the UK hasn't concentrated on its own (or England, as you mentioned, for that matter).

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 13:46:28

Will there still be a "UK" if Scotland goes??

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 13:47:22

Yes anice. Although the remaining members should also be entitled to referenda to decide on their involvement.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 13:48:06

I cannot see the benefit, in international terms, of leaving a bigger country, with political and economic clout that we share as part of that country, to become a much smaller with correspondingly much less clout internationally

When the United Nations was formed there were just over 50 independent countries in the world. Today, that figure has risen to almost 200.

Scotland’s population places us at exactly the mid-point among those countries: half the countries in the world are bigger – and half are smaller – than Scotland.

Of the 10 countries that joined the European Union in 2004, most became independent after 1990, and Scotland is bigger than six of them. All of these nations now have a seat at the EU top table, a right Scotland should enjoy too.

According to the International Monetary Fund our near neighbours Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Ireland (all of a similar size to Scotland) are wealthier than the UK – Scotland has as much going for it as any of these nations, except being independent.

The EU question is a tricky one. A major issue is that Scots are already EU citizens. If Scotland were not admitted to the EU that would mean revoking the citizenship of millions of people, and I think that is a pretty big deal.

With regard to euro vs pound, nobody disputes that Scotland would join the Euro when they are ready and when they meet the criteria. Until then the most sensible thing is to retain the pound.

3blindmice Tue 16-Oct-12 13:48:44

I am Scottish & am unconvinced by any pro independence arguements I have heard so far. The debate on this issue in the media & elsewhere has concentrated on emotional & cultural arguements & nothing about the economic arguements. At its most basic no one has yet been able to explain to me how living in an independant Scotland will make life better for me & my family & the rest of Scotland & if doesn't then frankly what is the point?
Any settlement between Scotland & the rest of the UK would be a long drawn out process & I doubt that Scottish politicians would be able to argue their case from a strong position as they are unlikely to get the same access to information as the government of the remaining rump of the UK.
On the EC question it would not just be Scotland's membership of the EU which would be open to doubt but that of the rest of the UK also.
I get the impression that many people think that Scots are anti English, of course there are a few idiots who are ( they are probably anti everyone else as well)but most Scots accept & like the English, Welsh & Irish as much as their own.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 13:55:32
Beveridge Tue 16-Oct-12 13:57:58

Maybe England needs devolution too? Perhaps true federalism is the way ahead, with Westminster only dealing with the reserved issues for ALL of the UK.

I think people are forgetting that voting for independence is not voting for Alec Salmond! Imagine how liberating it would be for the other parties to be able to concentrate fully on what they propose to offer for a fully independent Scotland, rather than being hamstrung by having to look over their shoulder to their Party HQs in London and make sure they spout a Unionist line.

Truth is, Scotland has voted in a noticeably different political direction since the middle of the last century but because we are a minority within the UK, we keep getting lumbered with governments we didn't actually vote for.

And while you can say this about FPTP democracy in the UK in general, I would argue that it is democratic good practice to try and go for a system that most closely represents what most people want, which for Scotland appears to mean bailing out.

pinotnoirprincess Tue 16-Oct-12 13:59:07

I really do not mean any disrespect to Scottish people. I am just a very straightforward person and say what I think. I can actually see 100% why Scottish people would not want to be ruled by people hundreds of miles away in Westminster. I totally get it. In fact if I was Scottish I am pretty sure I would be voting to go it alone.

However, I am a bit hmm about the reaction of Scottish people to the reaction they are getting from the remaining Brits. Many of us are really indifferent as to whether you stay or go. I think for many of us, we are in a deep recession, things are not good in our own country and we need change. I don't think we remaining Brits have the fight left in us. It does seem that many of you are very upset at our reaction to you going and that we are not kicking up a massive stink about it.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 14:01:08

No, pinotnoirprincess - your second post there actually made your view a lot clearer. I don't want the rest of the UK to e upset we're going, I'd like to see friendly relationships between equal neighbours, including England - good points made beveridge.

Cozy9 Tue 16-Oct-12 14:02:39

I wish they would. Sick of hearing them whinge about being hard done to.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 14:03:55

Haha! Lovely stuff cozy! Have a nice day smile

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 14:04:06

Truth is, Scotland has voted in a noticeably different political direction since the middle of the last century but because we are a minority within the UK, we keep getting lumbered with governments we didn't actually vote for

Great illustration of this:

Cozy9 Tue 16-Oct-12 14:05:30

There's no way Scotland contributes more than it takes out. Look at the amount of public sector jobs that are in Scotland. Glasgow would be utterly fucked if they were to go, as they would if Scotland exited the UK.

Cozy9 Tue 16-Oct-12 14:06:52

I think there would be a swing to the right in Scotland if they got independence and it was clear that Scottish people were paying for all public expenditure.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 14:07:56


anice Tue 16-Oct-12 14:09:33

I am Scottish.

Scotland joined with England to form the UK when Scotland's finances were in dire straits.

I think some of the Scottish think that in leaving they will be leaving the debt behind. But its like a marriage and just by walking out, it doesn't mean that there won't be a divvy up of the marital assets AND the liabilities.

Comparisons with denmark etc would be a lot more valid if we could turn the clock back several hundred years. It is wrong to pretend that a nation of c. 5 million people, with a vast heavy industry heritage (I am thinking of Glasgow, Dundee and much of the central belt) could eb anythign like Denmark in a couple fo years time.

Would those living from cradle to grave on benefits be willing to work to build this new country? I think not.

Beveridge Tue 16-Oct-12 14:09:47

ItsAllGoingToBeFine That's much better than my link!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 14:11:10

I think there would be a swing to the right in Scotland if they got independence and it was clear that Scottish people were paying for all public expenditure

Not a problem. The only chance the Conservatives have in Scotland is to become independent from Westminster.

Look at the amount of public sector jobs that are in Scotland. Glasgow would be utterly fucked if they were to go, as they would if Scotland exited the UK

Genuinely don't understand this statement. Surely under independence Scotland would lose some jobs that previously reported to Westminster, and gain some from the workload that would be shifted to Edinburgh?

stubbornstains Tue 16-Oct-12 14:12:55

I don't want to see Scottish independence. It would lead to the rest of the UK leaning further to the right, and I don't think I could hack that.

So, for purely selfish reasons, please don't go Scotland! (clings to Scotland's ankle, sobbing).

mamababa Tue 16-Oct-12 14:13:06

I am pleased its only going to be one question. A 'more power for Scotland' question is just cherry picking. Looking at the Barrett formula stuff and just the basics that the infrastructure must be expensive I don't see how Scotland can manage without subsidy. There are just not enough people paying enough in. However, they are I believe factoring in the revenue from oil which again isn't right. UK money has been invested in getting the oil out of the ground so for Scotland to claim 'it's ours' is again wholly unfair. Add in their share of national debt and I am not sure it's a good plan

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 14:14:57

Scottish money has been invested in a lot of what would e English enterprises too, though...

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 14:17:25

My friend made that illustration on Flickr!

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 14:17:47

all the 'oh it's so OBVIOUS that scotland can't survive without subsidy' lot, what are you basing this on? have you read the Andrew Hughes Hallett stuff? apparently when you take into account all the taxes that scots pay directly to london (road tax etc) we REALLY, REALLY do cover our costs. REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY, using sums and maths and stuff, rather than just gut feeling.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 14:19:51

But its like a marriage and just by walking out, it doesn't mean that there won't be a divvy up of the marital assets AND the liabilities

Completely agree.

It is wrong to pretend that a nation of c. 5 million people, with a vast heavy industry heritage (I am thinking of Glasgow, Dundee and much of the central belt) could eb anythign like Denmark in a couple fo years time

Scotland is blessed with 25% of the EU's offshore wind and tidal energy potential and this can translate into jobs and investment in the years ahead. Offshore wind alone could bring an estimated £30 billion of inward investment into Scotland and could support up to 28,000 directly related jobs and a further 20,000 indirect jobs in Scotland by 2020.

That is just one example.

Would those living from cradle to grave on benefits be willing to work to build this new country

This is a huge issue. Three generations of the same family being unemployed is not really acceptable. Problem is, welfare is currently a reserved matter so the Scottish Government can really only tinker around the edges.

This problem has been a long time in the making, and will be a long time in the fixing, but I think it is better done by the Scottish Government, than by a one-size-fits-all approach from Westminster.

Animation Tue 16-Oct-12 14:23:50

Aaaaaawwwww. That makes me sad - don't go Scotland! Don't leave us!!

smile wine brew

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 14:24:04

The Barrett formula excludes oil and gas revenue.

Cozy9 Tue 16-Oct-12 14:40:16

Scots will have to stop speaking English too if they leave the UK. We can veto their use of the language, they will all have to learn Gaelic quickly.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 14:41:37

cozy grin

Bonsoir Tue 16-Oct-12 14:44:13

It's up to the Scots. I am English and I have no strong feelings about Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland - if they want to tag along for historical reasons, that's fine, but if they don't more fool them, just go ahead and go it alone.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 14:47:22

maybe we'll get the auld alliance up and running again, Bonsoir, and arrange to you to be deported back to your homeland? grin

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 14:48:06

I fear most elected MPs share your ambivalence about the home nations outside of England.

Cozy9 Tue 16-Oct-12 14:48:34

Isn't there a part of Glasgow where life expectancy is only 54? What will Scotlands life expectancy be if it is a seperate country?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 14:51:30

what's your point, cozy?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 14:55:02

Yup, it's definitely a problem, and apparently a uniquely Scottish one. It won't be fixed by cutting benefits that's for sure.

I would hope that an independent Scotland, as it would then be able to handle its own welfare, could begin to slowly address the problem in a way that Westminster can't.

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 16-Oct-12 14:57:29

I haven't decided yet but I'm veering to staying within the union, though that may change.
I have to hear all the facts on both sides.
I do think that the creation of a Scottish Parliament is the best thing that ever happened to Scotland.
I agree with another poster upthread that said we have different values, there is only one Tory MP in Wesminster, so it doesn't seem right that the Tory party can make decisions for Scotland.
I'm not anti English, my ex is from Yorkshire and my brother has lived in England with his English wife for over 25 years, I've spent loads of lovely holidays down south.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 15:03:44

the idea that scottish people are automatically anti-english is ludicrous to the point of embarrassing. i really hope i don't have to spend the next two years prefacing every comment on this referendum with 'some of my best friends are english'...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 15:05:34

I agree, especially as I am for independence, though technically English... So does that mean I must hate myself? ((gazes thoughtfully at navel))

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 15:07:41

SOMBFAE, but...

actually i don't know what i think about it yet. it does seem like the anti argument is just 'you scots are too shit to do this by yourself', which i instinctively doubt is true.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 15:14:17


AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 15:16:16

SOMBFAE... it'll catch on, i swear. someofmybestfriendsareenglish.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 15:18:15

Oops blush you need to get mn to add it to their acronyms lost.

Can I use IAE but...? (I Am English)

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 15:24:02

completely agree Aitch, the negativity is awful.
I have made a decision, but if I hadn't yet I think the tone of the Union campaign may have repelled me so much that I'd be voting yes almost by elimination.

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 16-Oct-12 15:24:39

I agree Aitch.
But there are always people on these threads that seem to take it personally that Scotland are voting for independence, and always start Scottish baiting.
I've never yet seen a debate on this subject that ends up well, so I sometimes feel I have to get it in first that I'm not anti English, hence mentioning my family.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 15:27:45

LadyBeagleEyes I know how you feel. i have many English friends and relatives too and people assume some kind of anti-Englishness automatically. Tiring to say the least.

GimmeIrnBru Tue 16-Oct-12 15:32:05

Yes, and there's too many reasons for it being a good idea...

Pendeen Tue 16-Oct-12 15:38:25

Well considering our parliament (Cornish Stannary) predates Scotland's I think we should be first to go. smile

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 15:45:26

Cozy - i know you are only joking about speakign English, but its a myth that all Scots spoke Gaelic. Only the highlanders did. Most people live on the East Coast or in the central belt and those areas traditionally spoke Scots, which is a lot like English but uses words like "merket" instead of "market".
(Actually when you think about it, most people still speak Scots, not English.

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 15:49:12

Gaelic was spoken all over Scotland, actually.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 15:49:29

i love england and the english, i just don't like them getting to vote for their govt when i don't get a shot of voting for mine. and even the 'them' is dubious because i'd say that the south is ruling over the north in that regard. it's all very complicated...

LaCiccolina Tue 16-Oct-12 15:57:31

Let em go if enough of them are stupid enough to vote that way. Most though seem sensible and are ignoring these calls. I was particularly cheered by a group of 16 yr olds interviewed on Sky who seemed quite against it and rather bemused their elders were in any way for it. Seems its a very narrow age group that think its a good thing.

On one condition though, the rest of us get a referendum if they F* it up and want back in and/or bailing out in ANY way.

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 15:58:21

no, jennyp, I am really sorry but it simply was not.

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 15:59:07

I was sure that the Gaelic language wasn't spoken in Borders, West Coast, tohught it was confined to Highlands/Islands?

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 15:59:24

or maybe we are talking at cross purposes. Exactly when do you think Gaelic was spoken throughout Scotland?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 16:04:32

Scottish Gaelic may be more correctly known as Highland Gaelic to distinguish it from the now defunct dialects of Lowland Gaelic. Of these Galwegian Gaelic was spoken in Galloway and seems to have been the last dialect of Gaelic to have been spoken in Lowland Scotland, surviving until the Modern Period. By the 18th century, Lowland Gaelic had been largely replaced by Lowland Scots[citation needed] across much of Lowland Scotland. According to a reference in The Carrick Covenanters by James Crichton,[22] the last place in the Lowlands where Scottish Gaelic was still spoken was the village of Barr in Carrick (only a few miles inland to the east of Girvan, but at one time very isolated). Crichton gives neither date nor details.

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 16:06:49

Gaelic speakers in Scotland (1755–2001)
YearScottish populationSpeakers of Gaelic only

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 16:09:29

I'll try that again!
Gaelic speakers in Scotland (1755–2001)
YearScottish populationSpeakers of Gaelic only
1755 - 1,265,380 -289,798
1800 -1,608,420 - 297,823
1881 -3,735,573 - 231,594
1891 -4,025,647 - 43,738
1901- 4,472,103 - 28,106
1911-- 4,760,904 --- 18,400
1921- 4,573,471 -9,829
1931 - 4,588,909 - 6,716
1951 -5,096,415 - 2,178
1961 -5,179,344 - 974
1971 -5,228,965 -477
1981 - 5,035,315 - N/A
1991 - 5,083,000 - N/A
2001 - 5,062,011 - N/A

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 16:10:51

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - are you aligned to the SNP by any chance? I sort of recognise the things that you say as similar to the things I heard when I had several friends in the SNP.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 16:15:12

No, well I'm not a member or anything. But I did vote for them as my vote would have been wasted on the Greens. I am all for independence though and I have definite socialist leanings, I used to use my second vote for SSP before Tommy Sheridan left.

I never use the SNP site for info as it is a bugger to navigate but I guess most people who want independence and are left leaning will tend to use the same sort of sourced for their facts?

fivefoottwowitheyesofblue Tue 16-Oct-12 16:16:40


anice Tue 16-Oct-12 16:27:31

Its probably all different now. When I had friends in the SNP/ attended a couple of conferences etc, there were two distinct factions. On the one side were the romantics (mostly older people who lived in NW Scotland). The romantics wanted a roaming in the gloaming Scotland.

The central belt was socialist leaning, playing to the underclass/ working classes in areas like Govan.

Both had the same goal, i.e. an independent Scotland, but beyond that they had no shared vision about what an independent Scotland would ideally look like.

The party leadership played a very clever game of saying the right things to both sides, whilst somehow each faction was deaf to what the other faction were being promised.

I suspect that this is why Alex Salmond is still detail-lite about how he believes things will actually work in practice. (Obviously how it will actually work in practice once there is an independent Scotland, is that the leadership of the day will do what they please).

member Tue 16-Oct-12 16:29:28

I'm Scottish but have lived in England for over 15 years so won't get a vote. I wouldn't vote for Independence at this juncture though. Eck Salmond has a grounding in Economics & therefore can come out with some pretty persuasive-sounding rhetoric BUT the finer points that people need/practicalities have not been articulated by the SNP satisfactorily. It's all very well saying we can dot the i s & cross the t s after we've won the vote, but I'm sure most people would rather have that information beforehand.

If a "yes" vote is returned, it could take years to put into practice. Given Alex Salmond hasn't got a record of good health, chances are, he'd not be in a position to put practicalities into place.

People have to remember that not all leaders of the SNP/First Ministers are going to have the "charisma" & economic experience of Eck & that they are voting for change which ,potentially, could last for hundreds of years & not the lifetime of a Parliament.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 16:32:28

I guess we'll have to see what this white paper says when it comes out. Looking forward to reading the results of the consultation too.

It's pretty patronising though to suggest that Scots don't have the experience and charisma to go it alone sad

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 16:35:47

I'm not so sure that Alex Salmond is the economics guru that he makes himself out to be. I seem to recall that he wanted an independent Scotland to join the euro a few years ago (and you didn't have to know that much about economics to know that the euro was a disaster waiting to happen).

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 16:37:48

Given Alex Salmond hasn't got a record of good health

You know I do sometimes worry for Alex Salmond's health. There was a photo in the Scotsman or Herald last week which was taken circa 2006, he's changed a lot. I know politics is an ageing game (look at how Obama has greyed) but he's got a tough couple of years ahead of him and would want to take care of himself a bit more.

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 16:39:44

People spoke Gaelic in the lowlands till the 70s, some members of my family are involved in trying to revive it.

This is fairly irrelevant to the independence debate

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 16:42:04

Didn't there used to be a Gaelic programme on TV. Cuir Car? or something like that? I wonder what happened to it?

grimbletart Tue 16-Oct-12 16:44:00

Alex Salmond says Scotland would keep the pound.

But should England let them? After all, sterling was an Anglo Saxon invention in England.....

If Salmond really wants independence he should invent his own money.grin

<Takes cover behind nearest parapet...>

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 16:45:24

There's a Gaelic channel. My Gaelic is basic at best though.

Mrsjay Tue 16-Oct-12 16:46:09

i watch BBC ALba quite a lot some of the programmes are good they do have subtitles though ,

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 16:46:39

we have a whole channel now...

why is everyone treating the matter of an independent Scotland as if Salmond is going to be crowned as a result? i genuinely don't understand. we'll still have all the other parties, won't we? it'll probably be great for the tories in scotland, a real shot in the arm.

bureni Tue 16-Oct-12 16:48:24

Is Gaelic taught in Scotland nowadays?

Yup. There's still schools that have it on the curriculum. It's largely down to area though.

Mrsjay Tue 16-Oct-12 16:49:22

Yes you have Gaelic Meduim classes or schools ,

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 16:49:29

yep. they can't build the schools fast enough for the uptake.

Mrsjay Tue 16-Oct-12 16:50:09

My DDs friend didn't go to the local primary he went to the Gaelic school well it is a part of another primary ,

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 16:50:32

Montenegro has the euro but is not even a member of the EU (and it didn't ask teh EU's permission first). So there is precedent for a country tying itself to another's currency without agreement.

Its a fairly stupid thing to do though because the interest rate policy is one of the main tools for growing/ cooling the economy. The other is being able to devalue your currency.

As we've seen recently with the euro, a tied currency without poliitcal integration is a recipe for disaster (in this case for Scotland but not for England).

I can't imagine why Alex Salmond isn't telling the Scots that they need their own currency (because this really is year 1, day 1, page 1 of an economics degree).

bureni Tue 16-Oct-12 16:50:58

Good to hear that Gaelic is still taught, it is also taught in Ireland north and south.

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 16:51:35

Yup Aitch - people need to understand that a vote for Independence is not a vote for Salmond.

If the vote is "Yes" - then when we become independent, we get to vote for any and whatever parties want to set up in Scotland. That may or may not include old New Labour, the Greens and even the Tories - as well as the SNP. In fact, the SNP might have the toughest time long term, since their raison d'etre would have dissipated.

oohlaalaa Tue 16-Oct-12 16:53:35

Haven't Scotland and England been united for over 400 years?

I dated a Scottish boy at uni, he went to university in England, and although he's moved back to Scotland, he worked for a number of years after uni in England. I don't get the need to separate. Would he need a visa in future, and to pay higher university fees?

If the Scots want to separate, then so be it.

Will I need a passport to visit Scotland, and another currency? If so we would not visit as often.

As long as the Scottish tax payer, is paying the costs for them separating, then it's fine with me.

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 16:53:39

It's not compulsory though bureni. I don't know many Scots who have a cúpla focail.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 16:53:54

i think the jocks are quite inspired by the irish and welsh language schools experience. we were at the Mod yesterday, lots of kids and young people singing and dancing their hearts out, it was lovely. no finer music in the world.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 16:56:17

(some of us have enough to spot yer bad gaidhlig, squoosh... wink)

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 16:58:15

What was wrong with it?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:00:38

did you mean facail? or cupall? or cupla without the accent? grin

anice Tue 16-Oct-12 17:00:39

Union of the Crowns (James Vi of Scotland became James I of Scotland when Elezabeth I died) in 1606.

However, the union of the parliaments wasn't for another hundred years in 1707 when Scotland had some spectacularly bad luck and was going bust.

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 17:04:15

Nope, I meant definitely meant 'cúpla focail'. It's Irish.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:06:03

why are you asking what's wrong with it, then, if it's not even gaidhlig? or were you being deliberately obtuse?

SusanneLinder Tue 16-Oct-12 17:08:26

Can we clear up some myths here please?

1.You can join the EU, you do NOT have to join the Euro.
2.You don't have to like Alex Salmond.If you vote for independence, he WONT be running the country post independence or else Scotland would be an autocracy not a democracy.Normal elections as usual in 2016.
3.It is not just the SNP who are in favour of independence, there are Labour ,Green and Independent MSP's that are voting for it.
4.Yes Scotland will be taking its share of the debt, why wouldnt we be? hmm

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:09:56

This conversation is a bit absurd.

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 17:10:35

Good grief. hmm

I was talking to Bureni who said she was glad to hear it was being taught in Scotland. I was merely saying to her that in my experience most adult Scots do not have much knowledge of the language.

But go ahead, be as prickly and unpleasant as you like.

GimmeIrnBru Tue 16-Oct-12 17:13:41

I've got everything crossed we become independent - no more David Cameron YIPEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TiAAAAARGHo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:17:21


TiAAAAARGHo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:18:17

Nope, if you join the EU the EU rules are that you have to join the Euro. Didn't used to be that way, but now it is for all new accession states.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:24:21

i was being jokey, actually, hence the massive grin. but your 'what's wrong with it' was a bit arsey, given that you knew you'd written in irish and i'd specifically said that i knew enough to recognise bad gaidhlig. so, ya know... it'll have to remain up to the reader who was prickly first... grin

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 17:25:36

TiAAAAARGHo You are correct, members of the EU are expected to join the euro when it is right for their country and when they meet the convergence criteria (meeting the preconditions is a matter for each individual country as is deciding when ready)

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 17:32:14

You think I'm arsey. I think you're arsey.

Seems fair.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:39:38

now i think you're kinda boring as well... however i am sorry if my saying that you speak bad gaidhlig caused you any offence.

PosieParker Tue 16-Oct-12 17:42:51

I, as a British person, would like to vote on what happens to my country.,

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 17:44:13

You think I'm 'kinda boring' too? Because only you have the right of reply? Sorry about that.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:46:25

apology accepted smile

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 17:47:36

No, I don't agree with Scotland separating from the UK because it seems quite a propaganda poster for the SNP instead of caring about the real advantages of it.

I live in Scotland, so I'll be one of the voters. Mind you, my future husband never voted and he'll go to vote only for the referendum and to say NO grin

Salmond's idea of an independent Scotland is flawed in so many points that if this country separates from UK, in England you'll have a couple of millions of migrants pushing each other at the border!! How are Scottish people supposed to survive, economically speaking? With no NHS, army, Department of work and pension...

Without even mentioning that joining the euro brought down already 5 countries that are now considered "poor" and with high unemployment rates (Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy).
If that's what Salmond wants, my guess is that he'll have to celebrate independence with just his supporters.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:48:08

see Posie, i'd like for my vote to count too, and if you look at the gif someone posted earlier you'll see that scottish votes have had negligible effect on that since 1955.

I'm Scottish, currently living in England. If I'm back in Scotland in time for the referendum I'll be voting for independence.

squoosh Tue 16-Oct-12 17:48:57

passive aggression accepted smile

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:49:11

merlin, we really do have an NHS independent of the english system already.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 17:49:54


MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 17:54:05

Aitch, paid with what money?

Also, what about other advantages paid with english taxpayers money though?

Hehe... the idea of a Scotland independent is feasible but not better. Only the super-nationalists are for it. The others could change their idea after the referendum, as well the Europeans did after the failing European Union.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 17:57:36

I read about the Gaelic issue too, the Gaelic speakers are about 61.000 in all of Scotland, most of them living in the Western Isles.

For the record, Gaelic is an official language now but despite the constant promotion of the government to revive it, few people speak it.

PosieParker Tue 16-Oct-12 18:01:34

Scottish as opposed to what though? Living in the South West? Cornwall? I find it pretty shitty that Scots don't consider themselves British too....

TBH I get quite bitter about 'independence' and feel like thrusting upon Scotland....making England and all in it only accessible to the English and Welsh, unless you come with a passport.

I fail to see what, aside from prejudice, is pushing Scots to separate. But as an English person I am used to prejudice against me, by our neighbours. Frankly I am pretty disgusted.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 18:02:19

What I found really strange reading the comments on this thread is that it seems Highlanders are in favour of the independence more than the Lowlanders.

I've been living in the Upper Highlands for quite a time now and I'd say that of all people I asked about the independence 80% are against it (excluding the very elderly). It's an old fashioned idea supposing that Highlanders are still in the Risings' time.
I guess that if Salmond wins is because of Edinburgh and Glasgow's peoples.

PosieParker Tue 16-Oct-12 18:03:00

And when the population is lower in Scotland why would they have as big an effect on central government?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 18:04:16

it really doesn't feel like that here, tbh, if you're involved in any way with gaidhlig culture and education in central scotland it does feel vibrant and progressive and the council simply can't build schools fast enough to take the children whose parents want them to learn.

re the money, are you now the gazillionth person on this thread suggesting that scotland is subsidised?

Merlin- Weegie here....Nooo. Nobody I know in these parts is voting yes.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 18:05:44

so the only reason scotland would like to be a proper country again is to piss off the English? gawd. for the record, SOMBFAE.

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 18:07:35

I'm also a weegie - and many of my friends/family are voting Yes.

And that includes former Tory, Labour and LibDem voters.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 18:08:40

Posie, most Scottish people consider themselves British. To be honest, most people I've met in my years in Scotland arrived from England directly.

Lots of people easily forget history here.... UK and Scotland have been one nation since 1707. Why that though? Because from one day to another Scottish people didn't feel Scottish anymore?
Everybody forgot the disastrous consequence of the administrative failure of Darien? What about the "desertic moor" the Highland had become after the Clearances? Mmm...

Posie, I've to add something... Originally I wasn't Scottish or British, so I think I can be objective enough to comment... for some reason, I see why Scottish people are different from the English or why they've been so many wars and fights between Scottish and English. From there to say that an independent Scotland is better off without the UK.. pfft, NO.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 18:13:32

Agree with Aitch on Gaidhlig.

I don't consider myself British really, having Scottish and Irish heritage - just as my Norwegian pals get prickly when people describe them as 'Scandinavian'. This isn't from hatred of Swedes, it's because they have their own identity without the need for the umbrella term.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 18:14:16

Prettybird, I'm pretty sure that many friends of mine in Edinburgh will vote YES and you know why?

Because they're still studying and Scotland is paying their tuition fees despite NONE of them has a British passport...............

Want to laugh if Salmond cuts the free fees to EEA nationals after the referendum.......

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 18:18:17

this is really not a referendum on Salmond. it's about Scots having a vote that counts in a country they recognise as their own.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 18:20:58

Aitch, Scottish people have already a vote in their country, given that you can vote to elect Parliament members, first minister, etc.
Do you feel Scots live in a foreign country? I don't think so, never thought I was living abroad.....

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 18:30:25

I've said before and I'll say again, I don't think that people should vote yes or no because they think they will be (financially) better off - their decision should be about whether it is right

The reason I know so many people who will vote "Yes" is because they feel that they have a set of values that is totally different to that of England. Although, to be fair - I suspect that it is really Westminster/the over-heated South East that they have a gripe with.

In economic terms, that can often result in macroeconomic policies designed to combat a over-heating economy, where in practice, it is the South East that is over-heating and the rest of the UK is not over-heating - yet they bear the brunt of such policies. Immigration policy is another example: whereas Scotland may want to encourage a degree of immigration as we have a declining population, the Westminster government is clamping down on it.

forgetmenots Tue 16-Oct-12 18:31:27

Hear hear prettybird!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 18:31:58

Merlin many issues critical to Scotland are still reserved to Westminster, welfare being an obvious one. Since the 50s the way Scotland has voted has had no impact on the ruling party in Westminster.

This is why many Scots feel disenfranchised, that their vote doesn't count.

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 18:34:14

Abroad to me means over the sea. When I cross the border to England I'm definitely entering a foreign country. They don't even accept our money! If we're off to England we either need to take no cash with us or go to the bank specifically to get English notes in advance of us leaving.

And we don't have much of a say over some of the very big things that matter - nuclear weapons, whether or not to go to war, taxes, immigration policy.

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 18:35:14

Cross posted!

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 18:43:20

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 18:45:46

JollyJackOLantern, thank God we've no word about immigration policies...... Only the fact that European Union residents don't pay tuition fees at uni isn't fair. Only Scots should have that advantage. And I'm saying this against my own interest, mind you.

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 16-Oct-12 18:58:06

hmm That's a huge generalisation Merlin. And racist.

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 18:59:28

I actually don't have a fear of immigration per se. And I can say that living within one of the largest Muslim communities in Scotland and ds having gone to a primary school where 60% of the kids were from ethnic "minorities".

And I didn't suggest that immigration policies should be entirely dismantled anyway. But, for example, the Scottish Government has been trying to encourage students to come here and stay on (as part of the "knowledge economy") - but is stymied by Westminster policies.

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 19:02:52

And it's supposedly us Scots who are racist and xenophobic?

Doobydoo Tue 16-Oct-12 19:07:17

Yep.Sooner the better.

Doobydoo Tue 16-Oct-12 19:08:33

Then I will move theregrin

bureni Tue 16-Oct-12 19:34:12

Perhaps England should vote to leave the U.K? or parts of it at least.

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 19:35:47

Westminster don't really want to lose the energy money.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 19:39:38

bureni I'm sure there was talk of Berwick becoming Scottish if we got independence, and my Yorkshire relatives want Yorkshire to secede and join an independent Scotland.. . If the majority of people in a particular area want to be autonomous then they should be given that opportunity.

Mayisout Tue 16-Oct-12 19:42:33

I think we would all bicker among ourselves. The image that we are all united couldn't be further from the truth. EG Glaswegians whingeing about Edinburgh, you still hear the 'we're so much friendlier here' stuff, Aberdeen is a law unto itself prob second most wealthy place in uk, the western isles appears to be full of migrated english, the highlands well, hardly anyone there anyway. And where I am from will still be totally ignored as it is now.

stubbornstains Tue 16-Oct-12 19:44:08

Yes, I'm coming too Doobydoo! WE can move into the houses left by the people who say they're moving to England in the event of independence.

(envisages mass migration of people remniscent of Indian partition. Without the bloodshed, hopefully).

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 19:46:50

Mayisout but Scotland is generally United in the way it votes, which is generally very different to the way England votes.

If Scotland were independent it would be entirely in charge of its own affairs, no blaming Westminster for things. Of course different regions would still have individual quirks but it would be bringing control at least within the remit of Scotland. This means things could be more finely tuned for different Scottish regions, whereas at the moment is is a one size fits all policy from Westminster (necessarily)

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 20:09:19

so because Scottish people aren't robots who agree on everything, we should live in conditions where our votes don't count? that seems bonkers to me. how on earth do other countries in the world manage without being tied to Westminster?

DorsetKnob Tue 16-Oct-12 20:12:40

I really don't care any more.

I thought that Scotland already has a degree of autonomy already, so not sure what is governed by Westminster? Foreign policy and taxation?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 20:23:22

here's a list it's really fiscal, power and foreign i think that are the sticking points.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 20:26:55

but the fact that we have, for example, health already is why the prescription situation exists. for some reason it is THAT which causes the most jealousy to be expressed on MN... seriously... seven quid every so often (and a nightmare to administer and causing more expense in the long run) and that is the one thing that everyone gets their knickers in a twist over. grin

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 20:27:55

The SNP are pointing out that they would like to increase capital spend to boost the economy but the UK govt have cut the capital funds they have available.

bureni Tue 16-Oct-12 20:43:51

Prescriptions are also free in N.I.

Saltire Tue 16-Oct-12 20:53:34

mayisout - without even looking at your profile I bet you are from the DumGall area of Scotland? Your comment abut it being ignored makes me think that
<fellow Doonhamer>

JennyPiccolo Tue 16-Oct-12 20:57:43

Well that's James been kicked off British bake off! Fuck the English, let's TAKE THE POWER BACK. wink

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 21:03:33

prettybird But, for example, the Scottish Government has been trying to encourage students to come here and stay on (as part of the "knowledge economy") - but is stymied by Westminster policies.

I'm originally a EEA student (so even someone who called me a racist expressed a stupid comment because I should be a racist against myself) and I can tell you that loads of my "fellow" students came here, got free tuition fees and then used the degree to work somewhere else, because they just didn't like Scotland, period. You can't force people you like to migrate. You get what you get, not to choose people you'd like to migrate.

Then, honestly... English people pay 3 times more than the usual tuition fees and EEA students don't? (although they've to show they've been resident for a certain amount of time) Sorry but that isn't fair anyway.

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 21:08:04

I find it depressing to hear some of the viewpoints on threads like this. The memories of the economic hell that Scots endured after the last referendum in 1979 must have bypassed a lot of folk.

Back then, Scots were promised political and social nirvana by the Conservatives if they rejected independence, and whilst they voted Yes to going it alone, the turnout rules which applied at the time meant the vote was void and the status quo remained.

I need not start on what happened next with Thatcher, the 80's, Poll Tax, Shipbuilding, social and moral decline.

Now, David Cameron is winding back the years and promising the same all over again. More powers here, better this, better that, and polls for whether folk vote for or against Independence are in the balance.

Even just today this hits the news....

Scots would, on defence costs alone, save thousands of pounds per person. And still folk still say 'Och no, I love the Union'.

Post the next General Election, the real Central Government budget squeezes hit. You think our services have had a hard time the last two years, with some services seeing double digit cuts. You've seen nothing yet..

..and still folk say 'Och no, I love the Union'.

As a nation rich in natural resources, and likely to be a much wanted friend in Europe if not worldwide will work wonders for infrastructure, investment and trade, securing jobs for generations to come once it has control over its future...

..and still folk say 'Och no, I love the Union'.

Scots who pay more in tax to London than is received back have been robbed of almost £30 BILLION since the mid 70's....

..and still folk say 'Och no, I love the Union'.

I hold my head in my hands.

They say you get the Government you deserve.

A vote for 'No' in 2014 will get just that.

A Tory, or Labour Government, it wont matter who post-2015, will make life intolerable North of the border, and as always, its those who need a strong Scottish Government, led by the will of the Scottish people, who will feel the wrath of Westminster.

bureni Tue 16-Oct-12 21:12:28

Merlinscot, surely the English students should take the cost of their education up with the Westminster government who are charging them the fees. If Scotland manages its money better its hardly a Scottish problem fair or otherwise.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 21:13:43

Mayisout I think you're right about this I think we would all bicker among ourselves. The image that we are all united couldn't be further from the truth. EG Glaswegians whingeing about Edinburgh, you still hear the 'we're so much friendlier here' stuff, Aberdeen is a law unto itself prob second most wealthy place in uk, the western isles appears to be full of migrated english, the highlands well, hardly anyone there anyway.

Anyway it's not true that there's hardly anyone up here, we actually would like to secede and create the Orkney / Sutherland / Caithness / Shetland state, given the Viking influence. And we also get the oil because it's ours.
Ha, it's in our part of sea.

I'm off, I leave you to bicker among yourselves about the toad, his party and their crazy ideas.....

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 21:17:34

My father came to this country to study medicine. He had to pay fees as an overseas student and obviously got no grant. He brought his family with him (actually, technically my mum brought the family with her, as she was the one who could easily claim a UK passport, having, by chance, been born here) and chose to stay.

Yes, some people leave after studying. Some would like to stay but aren't allowed to. But even when people go home/elsewhere, there are usually links that have been made that in future years have the potential to be converted into business.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 21:19:34

Charlie1972, just wanted to say this.. Where do you see a nation rich in natural resources?? We don't live in Brazil.

likely to be a much wanted friend in Europe if not worldwide will work wonders for infrastructure, investment and trade, securing jobs for generations to come once it has control over its future...

At this day they exchange Scottish for British abroad, unless you're travelling while wearing your kilt, so what you're saying is pointless.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 21:21:18

it's true we will be punished badly for our cheek in asking for this referendum, should it fail.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 21:22:37

prettybird, what you could say could be true but as far as I know I've been meeting few potential partners (foreigners) for a venture I had in mind some time ago. When they discovered where they should invest their money, they said no. People move their companies to China and India because labour is so much cheaper there. They wouldn't invest in Scotland anyway, whether it's independent or not.

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 21:22:55


Oil. Black Gold. (...and gas) 100 years of the stuff still to extract at current estimates. Not to mention a quarter of the wind energy resources of Europe puts Scotland in the best energy providing position of anyone in the EU.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 21:23:56

Aitch, it's right to have the referendum, not questioning that. At least, once done they'll shut up with the independence talks, one way or another.

MerlinScot Tue 16-Oct-12 21:27:33

Charlie, if you're hinting to the windfarms, you touched a sensible spot for someone living besieged by windfarms all the time.
That's one of the reasons Upper Highlanders dislike Salmond.

I've to tell you that we're sick of windfarms already and we're trying to stop all the companies to put more. We're petitioning against them. Because honestly we don't want the windfarms to get over the landscape anymore while Scottish Hidro keeps rising the electricity prices.

So if you want more, petition to have them installed in the Borders, thanks!!

Gas? I don't think we have any.

TryDubai Tue 16-Oct-12 21:28:30

While I would prefer Scotland to stay in the UK, I can see the attraction to the Scots of independence. But I think the truth of the matter is that both countries need each other more than they would care to admit.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 16-Oct-12 21:28:43

charlie you forgot water ;-)

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 21:29:32

Personally, i'd rather the Scottish Government take the ballsy option and flick the finger at London and just declare UDI.

We don't need no 'referedum', we had one. It was called an election. The SNP won in a system deliberately gerrymandered never to allow it to happen. But it did.

I'm a Labour voter through and through, but i'd like to see it done, party politics aside. It'd have my approval.

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 21:31:25

sorry...forgot the water ;-)

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 21:31:37

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, as my experience is so much at odds with yours. Dh also used to work in Inward Investment with significant successes (although he stopped working directly in the field a few years ago) and using the Scottish networks was a real boon.

But we don't deserve investment just because we're Scotland - we have to prove the benefits of locating and/or investing here. It can (and has) been done.

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 21:32:12

(that was to MerlinScot)

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 21:57:10

Gas fields...same as the oil fields. One and same. Enormous potential worth around £1.5 TN currently

Pixiepie Tue 16-Oct-12 22:19:57

Yes, i do want to be independant. I live in Scotland and as long as we can afford it, then absolutely! Cant stand the tory goverment voted in by the English and has NO relevance whatsoever to Scotland.

Solopower1 Tue 16-Oct-12 22:32:03

I agree that the Scots are fed up with Tory party polics. They think anything would be better than another Tory government, which doesn't represent them at all.

What representation would the Welsh Labour voters get from the Tory government in Westminster if Scotland left the Union?

We can't just abandon them to their fate ...

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 22:52:37

i know, that is a worry... but the same could be said of the north of england. it's really the south that rules us all.

SundaeGirl Tue 16-Oct-12 23:00:39

it's true we will be punished badly for our cheek in asking for this referendum, should it fail.

Oh, fgs, it's not Middle Earth. It's this kind of paranoid persecution complex that makes me think Scottish separatists really have no clue. That and they can never really demonstrate an understanding the role of currency in national economics.

I live in Scotland, move in well educated circles, broad spectrum of nationalities and plenty of people who work in multi national organisations. Almost everyone I know will be voting No. I mean, what exactly is so 'independent' about moving from the UK into Europe where we'll have even less say.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 23:07:07

it's not paranoid or silly, tbh, just look at the attitude on here and on the thread last night. if this simple yes/no fails (and it probably will), the Tories will kick our arses in just the same way that they did before. poll tax, anyone?

i'm trying hard not to out myself but i absolutely know of one group of people who have lost their jobs already as a result of not being able to persuade scots to vote tory. (and no, it's not scottish tories... this is london-based).

SundaeGirl Tue 16-Oct-12 23:09:48

Why will they kick our arses? And how? We do have a Scottih Parliament.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 23:11:28

btw i am neither a middle earther nor a separatist and i also move in well-educated <snort> etc etc etc circles, but i would hesitate to say that those people would vote one way or another at this stage. (and horror of horrors, it's not only they who have the vote!) how everyone can speak for their entire social group right now is beyond me.

lots of head/heart stuff going on, and lots of arguments yet to be made i guess. agree about the currency and europe, that's still unclear, but to ignore the warning from history that was the tories behaviour after the last time this subject came up... well, that's just a bit thick imo.

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 23:12:01

Which gets an allocated slice of funding from the Tory government.

SundaeGirl Tue 16-Oct-12 23:17:49

JollyJack are you seriously suggesting that Westminster will cut the Scottish Parliament budget if the referendum fails?

Oh, so no paranoia there then...

kaumana Tue 16-Oct-12 23:19:18

Does not anyone else find it bizarre that the SNP are banking on the money from the North Sea oil fields while pouring money into " carbon free" energy sources? But that's ok we are "green".

So,it's ok to export to others to do as they want with the oil but we'll pay big money to international companies to construct our wind turbines etc

Please would someone explain the logic in this.

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 23:21:32

No, I'm not suggesting that.

You suggested that the Tories couldn't do anything because we have a Scottish parliament. The point of seeking independence is that we don't currently have autonomy and Westminster controls many things.

Clearly the Tories, or whatever government there is down South could have a huge negative effect on Scotland if they wanted to.

I was simply pointing out that your argument made no sense. I have no idea what the Westminster govt would do if there was a no vote.

JollyJackOLantern Tue 16-Oct-12 23:25:51

kaumana I don't understand your point. The Scottish govt are putting resources into renewable energy to help Scotland's economy. And to future proof us. Nobody sane is suggesting that oil revenues will be around forever. Why shouldn't Scotland exploit its other natural resources?

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 23:29:20

The proverbial arse will be kicked if there's a no vote as the Tories are tabling measures to take some of the devolved duties away from Holyrood.

...and with no help from Labour, who ironically setup the Scottish Parliament in 1998

mirry2 Tue 16-Oct-12 23:29:33

I would say that most people living in England won't care whether or not Scotland votes for independence, because it probably won't make much of an impact on us. As a person married to a Scot I have come up against alot of anti - English sentiment amongst my inlaws an friends from Scotland but I think most English people I know have a live and let live mentality. Certainly in London we live in a multicultural society where the Scots are just one of a whole raft of ethnic groups, although I don't think we englsih single them out as a different group - the Scots single themselves out.

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 23:32:04

The 'rule from Europe' argument is a complete facepalm moment.

Having control of our own financial affairs, keeping the tax revenue that we raise, making our own decisions in our best interests. Europe may lay gudelines, as are followed now, but they wont rule over us any more or less than before.

Heck, Scotland might not choose to join the EU.....(shock-horror)

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 16-Oct-12 23:32:17

do you REALLY think it's paranoid to be concerned what the Westminster govt (realistically, the Tories) would do in the event of their winning this referendum? i think anyone would be crazy not to be, tbh.

SundaeGirl Tue 16-Oct-12 23:33:36

My argument makes total sense. Westminster will not 'take revenge' <mwahhahah> because it can't. Scotland's Parliament is enshrined in law, the Scotland Act, so to over throw that Act they'd need MPs to vote it through. They won't because, guess what, some of them are from Scotland.

The kind of 'revenge' type thinking is so off the mark.

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 23:35:11

There's no paranoia at all...

As per my previous page (the long post), why anyone would vote NO is just ludicrous.

Redbindy Tue 16-Oct-12 23:37:01

Two more years of this! That Alex Salmond has got a fucking lot to answer for. Personally I think that if the majority of the people of Scotland wish to be independent we should wish them farewell and the very best of luck.

SundaeGirl Tue 16-Oct-12 23:38:46

The 'rule from Europe' argument is a complete facepalm moment.

Ok, I really have no idea which aspect of Europe you are 'face palming' so it's difficult to know whether you have a grasp on how our legal system works, or about the effect of rates of inflation and mechanisms to control the economy. However, the 'control our own financial affairs' does seem to imply you don't get that to control financial affairs you actually have to control your own currency. And there's no suggestion for setting up a Central Bank of Scotland printing our own cash that I've heard.

kaumana Tue 16-Oct-12 23:43:50

Jack but surely you can see the double standard? Selling our oil but we are "green"..

Charlie1972 Tue 16-Oct-12 23:46:00

Many nations have done, and still do well using other currencies for a short term.

Using the pound would do everyone favours.

The BoE would welcome having Scotland on board otherwise 10% of GDP disappears off the books overnight, and politically, would work well for the rUK Govt as it'd be a compteting currency against the (crappy) Euro.

Until the time when Scotland gets its own currency sorted out and in order after a few years, it can do its own thing. I'd wager the BoE would be offering incentives hand over fist to keep Scotland on board in the 'Pound-zone' or whatever it'd be called.

prettybird Tue 16-Oct-12 23:51:29

I could truthfully write the same statement <I live in Scotland, move in well educated circles, broad spectrum of nationalities and plenty of people who work in multi-national organisations.> - except in my case the following sentence would be Almost everyone I know will be voting Yes

Just goes to show it is still wide open. smile

Those involved with the Independence campaign might get upset by the Sundaegirl's implication that well educated people and those who work for multi-national organisations de facto won't vote Yes. But I suppose that is part of the work that the Yes campaign needs to do - demonstrating the positive reasons for independence to all sections of society. And likewise, the Unionists need to provide examples of why we are "better together".

SundaeGirl Tue 16-Oct-12 23:53:56

You are completely mistaken. One of the biggest economic lesson of the last 30yrs is how to control your currency. Argentina was a disaster. Greece is chaos.

And no, the BoE will not want Scotland in the Pound Zone! Why would it? (See above or any economics basic text book)

prettybird Wed 17-Oct-12 00:05:40

Actually, the Scottish banks do print their own cash - hadn't you noticed? wink At the moment they have to provide appropriate sureties with the Bank of England. I see no reason for that to end in the short term - in the same way that Ireland for many years maintained parity between the punt and the Pound Sterling.

But you are right - it is one of the details that needs to be discussed and proposals put forward as to what could be done.

On a humorous note, I can remember once, many, many years ago seeing a Foreign Exchange table in an airport which had Scottish Pounds with a better exchange rate than English pounds confused I had fantasies of making a killing by manipulating the two, but the difference was so minimal that you would have needed dealer type amounts to cancel out the fees.

kaumana Wed 17-Oct-12 00:06:20

^This is what I'm worried about, the average Joe < Jimmy> is not so much aware of the above terms, not that I think it is beyond understanding but I would like the pros and cons put forward in an easy way to comprehend in the media.

Loveweekends10 Wed 17-Oct-12 04:36:41

I cannot quite see how it will work to Scotland's benefit. Look at the financial situation of some smaller countries at the moment.
I'm in favour of it. Lets face it it wouldn't affect me that much. Any scot ive ever met seems to want to dissociate themselves with the rest of uk anyway.
If I sent my dd to university there would she then not need to pay? My cousins live in Portugal and they have all been educated in Scotland as fees lower. So maybe we will then benefit in some way as the rest of Europe seems to.

Charlie1972 Wed 17-Oct-12 07:10:05

Yes, some small coutries are really struggling. Luxembourg is having a really hard time, so is Malta...not!

Demonstrably, figures show that suggest that the introduction of the Euro has triggered sizeable increases in intra-Euro area trade. Not that im saying that Scotland should join, not now, but the statement that small countries flounder is risible.

On average, the Euro triggered a reallocation of intra-Euro area exports to small countries by some 6 percent.

JollyJackOLantern Wed 17-Oct-12 07:13:01

Where did you get that figure, Charlie? That's a useful one.

HecateLarpo Wed 17-Oct-12 07:20:15

I am not in favour of it nor against it.

tbh, I don't know enough about it to decide either way.

Will it be the signing of a paper and off you go, or would scotland expect to leave with a financial package?

Does Scotland have the money to exist as a separate country, with zero input from the rest of the UK? What would happen if it turned out that they didn't? Would they rejoin the UK?

Does the rest of the uk have the money to survive without scotland?

In fact, if scotland, england, wales and ireland were all independent, would each be able to function? Has it been demonstrated that they can all manage financially on their own?

The only option I don't like is independence in every way but financial.

And that's not just about scotland, that's in every situation. Including your kids grin You want to be independent, make all your own decisions, have me have no say at all? That's fine, but get yourself a job and pay your own way because my bank closes the day you move out! grin I do think that a country that wants to be independent should be independent. That would be my only stipulation, if it was my decision.

JollyJackOLantern Wed 17-Oct-12 07:36:57

And kauama I said I didn't understand your post. I see what you mean now and don't disagree.

MerlinScot Wed 17-Oct-12 09:57:45

Charlie, where you got that figure nobody knows..... You can't take Luxembourg or Malta as an example, as well as Vatican City or Monaco, that would be really a laughable one....
Instead, take Latvia / Croatia / Slovenia and all the new independent countries as an example. Then I can accept your point of view as reasonable. Then you'll also have to explain me why Latvian and Polish people invaded UK if they were living so well where they came from.

Concerning renewable energies, I guess you'll be delighted to exploit your own sources, meaning the ones you have south of Scotland. Up here we're sick of turbines and to be honest we're gathering signatures and petitions to have no more - When you'll be surrounded by windfarms, post your opinion about the renewable energies.

It is funny that nobody has a clue about economics and above all, nobody has a clue about what means being in the European Union "out" of the UK.
To be honest, you're enjoying here big wages and low life cost if compared to the other countries and nobody wants to see that.
I've been living in another European country for most of my life, the introduction of the euro currency destroyed our lives, our wages became NOTHING and in a 2-year span we lost the power of buying a house, renting a flat, in the end even buying food.
If Scottish wants to join the euro, I guess a herd of Scots will soon try to migrate somewhere else when they'll be aware they can't make ends meet, like 50% of Greek and 35% of Italians (and I stayed low with the percentage rates). Euro, this week, was exchanged 1.30 with a pound, I know because I received a bank transfer yesterday.

Without even counting what will happen with the Scottish passports... who gets one? People who are residents or people who choose to have one? What about families who are half Scottish half English then?

The more I think about this the funnier it is... SNP should inform us about what's going to happen to Scotland in case the YES wins.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 17-Oct-12 10:12:09

Concerning renewable energies, I guess you'll be delighted to exploit your own sources, meaning the ones you have south of Scotland. Up here we're sick of turbines and to be honest we're gathering signatures and petitions to have no more - When you'll be surrounded by windfarms, post your opinion about the renewable energies

Erm, Whitelee Windfarm next to Glasgow? Europe's largest.... Plus, looking at maps available here
There is a far greater concentration of windfarms central belt and South, than there is to the north.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 17-Oct-12 10:16:52

Charlie, where you got that figure nobody knows.....

this is one source, I'm sure you could find others...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 17-Oct-12 10:19:28

Sorry, try again...

Several studies suggest that the introduction of the Euro has triggered sizeable increases in intra-Euro area trade. In this paper we test whether these gains are distributed asymmetrically among Euro area countries with respect to country size. This hypothesis is motivated by Casella (1996), who postulates that small countries of a trade bloc gain more from its enlargement. We argue that the implications of this model do also apply to the introduction of a common currency and test for a small country bonus using aggregate trade data and disaggregated trade data at the SITC1, SITC2, and SITC3 level. The results suggest that there is indeed strong evidence for a small country bonus with respect to the gains from trade after the introduction of the Euro. On average, the Euro triggered a reallocation of intra-Euro area exports to small countries by some 6 percent. (author's abstract)

JennyPiccolo Wed 17-Oct-12 10:30:40

When Scotland's independent, can Aitch be president?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 17-Oct-12 10:31:27

She gets my vote smile

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 17-Oct-12 10:43:03

I wonder, should we get independence, if we'll finally have a chance to win Eurovision smile
And I'm sure we'd give England douze pointes, 'cos we're nice like that.
Win/win really.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 17-Oct-12 10:47:09

i'd settle for nothing less than queen, although the bedrooms in Embra Castle are teeny. grin

the thing is, i really don't know how i'll vote, but i do wonder, because of my job, if it will be at all possible to obtain a true reckoning from the media.

JollyJackOLantern Wed 17-Oct-12 11:13:03

Merlin I don't live in the central belt. We are surrounded by wind farms. There's an application in for a new one at the moment which will give the community enough money to build a new hospital. Sounds good to me.

I think they look fascinating.

I heard Johann Lamont on the radio one day saying she thinks they look like dancing ladies.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 17-Oct-12 11:27:56

Aitch Only queen? I was thinking Empress had a certain ring to it..

grannydaf Wed 17-Oct-12 12:26:53

hi mumsnetters
as an economist I have always been in favour of independence. Scotland would by all objective reckoning be better off financially if independent. And as important, we can chose policies across the board which accord with the wishes of our people, instead of the agendas of mainly public school boys with punitive attitudes to the poor, disabled and ill and warlike foreign policies dictated by the economic interests of the class they represent.
Daphne a granny from the north

anice Wed 17-Oct-12 13:17:59

grannydaf - as an economist are you also in favour of keeping the pound with interest rate decisions in Westminster without consideration for how Scotland's economy is growing?

anice Wed 17-Oct-12 13:25:03

This is what I fear will happen within Scotland post independence. It a continuous threat in England too BTW. Not that Scotland does not have talented, able potential leaders (it does have them). If I was a large investor in Scotland., I'd be looking to pull my investment now.

Ineptocracy(in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. syn- socialism.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 17-Oct-12 13:31:40

are you also in favour of keeping the pound with interest rate decisions in Westminster without consideration for how Scotland's economy is growing

But we already have this, and if we go into the Euro then our interest rates will be dictated too..

I can't see the problem?