5 yr old girl "snatched" in Wales

(535 Posts)
mumblechum1 Tue 02-Oct-12 04:38:29


Let's all keep our eyes peeled sad

ThatVikRinA22 Tue 02-Oct-12 05:02:09

just heard this on the way home on the radio, how awful.
clicky link

mumblechum1 Tue 02-Oct-12 05:07:52

Thanks for the clickylink Vicar.

MrsSnaplegs Tue 02-Oct-12 05:35:34

I hope she is found safe sad

Chubfuddler Tue 02-Oct-12 05:58:32

Oh no how awful. It's one of those fears as a parent I try to be rational about because it is so rare, but it does happen sometimes. Poor child.

scottishmummy Tue 02-Oct-12 06:35:26

just seen on news
hope wee one found
every parent nightmare

NopofacehaveI Tue 02-Oct-12 06:36:26

Bumping this to keep it in active
Worst nightmare

Growlithe Tue 02-Oct-12 06:40:03

Praying for her safe return.

Hope she is found safe & wellsad

MOSagain Tue 02-Oct-12 08:29:04

very very sad. Read an article this morning that said she was out playing at 7.30pm. Surely not without an adult? It would have been pitch black surely?

SoggySummer Tue 02-Oct-12 08:32:22

There are a couple of threads in chat about this

RubixCube Tue 02-Oct-12 10:23:23

brought tears to my eyes.Poor little girl must be so scared.I really hope shes ok

daisydoodoo Tue 02-Oct-12 10:25:35

hope they find her safe and well.

Tweet2tweet Tue 02-Oct-12 11:45:33

I think that this is a heartbreaking story. I am praying that, that little girl is found and is kept safe until then. Don't judget the parents, they must feel so bad just now.

cazboldy Tue 02-Oct-12 12:05:33

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Fobwatch Tue 02-Oct-12 12:19:16


1. 7pm is not late
2. She was not alone, was with friends
3. It is a tiny, friendly village
4. Would you rather her be inside, rather than getting fresh air and playing

Your post is really offensive, masquerading as compassion.

And for the record, what you are doing is called victim- blaming. Do you also think that women who wear high heels and skirts with splits "deserve" to be raped?

Fobwatch Tue 02-Oct-12 12:20:26

Parents who give their children appropriate freedom to live their lives really should be taught a lesson.

The individual in the white van you offer no opinion on?

cazboldy Tue 02-Oct-12 12:31:14

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MOSagain Tue 02-Oct-12 12:35:13

I don't think anyone on this thread was meaning to be offensive, I really do hope not.
Like Cazboldy, I had also picked up on the 7pm/7.30pm part. With respect, I do feel that is late (for a 5 year old) and it is dark then. Of course we don't know all the facts and cannot/should not judge but I know that my 5 year old would not be out at that time of night, with or without friends (whose ages we don't know)
Of course, the parents know this now and all we can do is pray that she is found safe

cazboldy Tue 02-Oct-12 12:36:38


absolutely agree smile

The real point here is that a 5 yo girl has gone missing.
We can all speculate but we don't know the full facts & lets not forget this was a tiny villiage not a town.
Whatever the wrongs or the rights a child is missing out there somewhere and her parents will be suffering enough without the finger pointing!

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 13:08:08

fobwatch your post was very rude. It was only a matter of time before someone raised the fact that a 5 year old was out without close parental supervision at a time when most children of that age should be in bed with a story.
This is a "talk" forum and I am sure EVERYBODY wants a happy ending to this story, but questions are always asked in cases like

PoshPaula Tue 02-Oct-12 13:16:27

I agree with fobwatch.

Please don't talk about these parents 'learning a lesson'.

An abduction can happen in an instant.

I pray for the child's safe return and my thoughts are with her and her family.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 13:21:26

To be fair I think cazbody was saying that she hopes this all it turns out to be (a lesson learnt) as opposed to a different outcome. There was no malice in what was said, no one has said anything callous some mumsnetters just like to jump on things to stir it up.

peanutMD Tue 02-Oct-12 13:24:20

she was playing a few yards from her front door.

pigletmania Tue 02-Oct-12 14:03:37

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pigletmania Tue 02-Oct-12 14:06:25

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FateLovesTheFearless Tue 02-Oct-12 14:07:56

I agree with fob watch and I disagree with saying most children are in bed by 7pm. My girls are 6 and 7 and tend to be in bed by 8, coming in at 7pm from playing out with friends.

I hope that little girl is found and is okay. sad

dikkertjedap Tue 02-Oct-12 14:17:17

Poor little girl and poor parents. I hope she get found soon.

I think it is neither here nor there whether she was playing out at 19.00h, unfortunately these things can happen at any time of the day. It is awful that people do this to a child, it is awful that parents have to live in fear that somebody might snatch their child, what a rotten society we are in!

Growlithe Tue 02-Oct-12 14:22:27

Another one in the eye for lax parenting

What a spiteful thing to say given these circumstances. I seriously can't bear to think about what these poor parents are going through, and yet comments like these are already being made.

Let's just hope there is enough positive thought and action to get a good result in this case.

Whatever you think of their parenting, keep it to yourself and leave them alone. Now is most certainly not the time.

edam Tue 02-Oct-12 14:25:21

poor little mite, hope she's found soon.

Machynlleth isn't a tiny village, it's a small market town, but it is a close community - I can see why her parents will have felt she was safe playing out. I used to let ds play out on our street at that age with his friends, checking every 15 minutes or so. Not at 7pm, but equally the person who did this could have turned up at 4 or 5.30.

Tuttutitlookslikerain Tue 02-Oct-12 14:29:14

Some people are so spiteful! It must be nice to live in some of your perfect worlds!

Please spare a thought for these poor parents and the anguish they are going through at the moment, and, also spare a thought for April.

bkgirl Tue 02-Oct-12 14:29:23

Its so difficult, we want our children to play and let their hearts soar. Our 9 year old loves the bike and rides on the street with her pals - yes at 7.30 too. Do I watch her, yes of course but not every second. Honestly, I can't see why pedophilles keep getting out of prison. I really suspect certain judges who act like their friends.They should be locked away for ever or put down. Yes, I would press the switch to get rid of this vermin and I would do it for free.

pigletmania Tue 02-Oct-12 14:31:53

I just hope that this little girl is found safe and well. Yes people are going to judge whether you agree with it or not, because the girl involved was only 5 and was not out with a responsible adult.

Fobwatch Tue 02-Oct-12 14:32:58

I just love the idea that the poor, poor, parents will "learn a lesson" from this. FFS. If this chikd is returned to them safe and well, I suspect she will not be let out of their sight for the next 10 years or so, such will be their fear, paranoia and guilt.

The idea that they will "learn their lesson" is utterly patronising and naïve.

pigletmania Tue 02-Oct-12 14:34:22

I agree Fob I expect that they will be ultra cautious with her safety if she is found

NopofacehaveI Tue 02-Oct-12 14:34:41

Reading all these posts, I certainly remember playing out in the street in a similar setting right near home, didn't all kids used to play out in 70s?

my dd doesn't as we live in a busy town with busy roads but still.

pigletmania Tue 02-Oct-12 14:38:25

I never played out at that age and in the dark, we were all indoors

hellymelly Tue 02-Oct-12 14:38:54

I'm like NopofacehaveI, I played out with other children all the time in the 70's, and I think in many places in Wales children still do, it is common where my mum lives for example, but not so much in my village as the road through is busy.
I am hoping that she is found asap. She is the same age as my dd. sad

edam Tue 02-Oct-12 14:54:16

I played out every day in the 1970s - small village in Yorkshire - but I think we were always home before it got dark. Whatever, doesn't make these parents wrong and it CERTAINLY does not mean they deserved to have their daughter taken. Anyway who could say that is truly disgusting - smugness is one thing but wishing harm on a little girl? Good grief.

Tailtwister Tue 02-Oct-12 14:56:55

The kind of person who would abduct a child like this may well have spent time watching the area and quite possibly a specific child or group of children. They could have been monitoring the times the children were out, waiting for the opportunity to act. It's the kind of thing you just can't factor in.

Of course all parents are cautious about their child's safety, but it really depends on the environment doesn't it? Playing out at this age may well be perfectly normal in such a small village. It's not something I would let my 4 yo do, but I live on a busy road where children don't generally play out.

Like everyone, I hope she is found swiftly and safe.

RubixCube Tue 02-Oct-12 16:11:58

I read some where that April's parents had come back from a parents conference and seen her friends playing outside so let her play out for 10minutes whilst the mum put the kettle on.I'm not sure how true that is but sounds plausible to me.Poor parents will be suffering sad going over what ifs

Kinora Tue 02-Oct-12 17:01:17

Just seen on the news - 46 year old male arrested in connection to this. April still missing sad

dollywashers Tue 02-Oct-12 17:16:06

They've found the van too sad

Chubfuddler Tue 02-Oct-12 17:16:30

God I hope she's alright. Doesn't sound good does it?

mrsscoob Tue 02-Oct-12 17:17:18

I really hope she is found sad

Have to say I hate how people make judgey comments without knowing the facts. Nasty people.

crackcrackcrak Tue 02-Oct-12 17:27:17

Sorry but I agree with others - why was she unsupervised was my first thought at seeing the story. If she was yards from her home it only takes one parent to be outside keeping an eye on all the kids - I thought that's what close communities did sad.

Statistically, abduction is a v tiny risk but there are others with 5 year olds - accidents/roads/whatever really.

And like all I imagine; I will be overjoyed to hear of her safe return.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 17:27:32

Apparently there had been another attempted abduction within the last fortnight, although this could be unconnected.

I haven't seen anyone on here express anything but sympathy for the girls parents. It isn't judging, just different ways of parenting. I cannot imagine letting a 5 year old out to play anywhere other than my back garden, without constant supervision. Especially not at 7pm. However, I understand that whilst it is not my way of doing things it is commonplace for other people and I do not "judge" them for it. I can't understand it but perhaps it is a location issue. I certainly am not "judging" them and haven't seen any poster doing so. What I have seen is other posters attempting to take people's words out of context to start an argument. Jeez.

usualsuspect3 Tue 02-Oct-12 17:32:00

Fucking hell , is there any need for the nasty comments about her parents.

They must be going through hell. You should be ashamed of yourselves with your sneery judgey views.

Chubfuddler Tue 02-Oct-12 17:36:16

I think it's born out of fear. "As long as I don't do x y z my child won't be abducted/my house won't be burgled/I won't be raped".

usualsuspect3 Tue 02-Oct-12 17:37:22

To say 'I hope the learned their lesson' is a disgusting thing to say.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 17:38:19

Nobody said that!!!!!

usualsuspect3 Tue 02-Oct-12 17:40:24

That poor poor child and her parents, and all you can do is sit in judgment. Makes me sick to read crap like that on a parenting site.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 17:43:00

Who has say in judgement?!?! I certainly haven't and to quote something that hasn't been said is nuts. Someone used the term "a lesson learnt" but in a very specific context.

Everyone on here has expressed how much they hope that poor little girl is returned promptly and safely to her parents. Goodness knows what they must be feeling. Please stop trying to insinuate anyone has said otherwise.

CheerfulYank Tue 02-Oct-12 17:44:55

My DS is five and plays alone in our backyard all the time. I can see him if I look out the window, but...if he wanted to play with older children nearby, would I let him? Maybe.

This is not her parents fault. Elizabeth Smart was snatched from her own bed, for crying out loud. Was that her parents' fault?

Poor, poor little girl and her poor family. They must be in agony. I hope she is found.

usualsuspect3 Tue 02-Oct-12 17:45:51

Oh FGS, 'Another one in the eye for lax parenting'

Explain that then?

DisappointedHorse Tue 02-Oct-12 17:46:54

OhSoSimple, yes they did. Cazboldy said it on the first page.

Poor little girl, praying for her safe return. After growing up in a small village, now a small town I had ridiculous amounts of freedom from a very young age so I feel for her parents.

People have very different levels of comfort depending on personal circumstances and experiences. Blaming them only tries serves to reassure the blamers it will never happen to them. No, but something else might.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 17:50:17

I agree cheerfulYank, there are lots of examples of children being abducted from their homes/gardens/hotel rooms. we live rurally in a village and children do not play out as such here, however we lived in a cul-de-sac in a large town a few years ago and all the children, some younger than 5, used to play outside.

Unfortunately there was a spate of attempted abductions. Disgusting that there are people who will think nothing of using an opportunity to snatch an innocent child.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 17:52:13

disappointedhorse she did not say "I hope they learn their lesson" she said she hoped the child would return safe and sound and it would be a "lesson learnt". They intimate totally different things! She clearly meant that hopefully it will all end well. It's cruel to try and twist her wording.

usualsuspect3 Tue 02-Oct-12 17:52:52

No it was cruel for her to say it in the first place.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 17:53:13

usualsuspect I can't comment about that as I don't even understand what it means!!!!!!!

Chubfuddler Tue 02-Oct-12 17:53:52

I can't see any difference between the two actually. And I'm probably the most tiresome pedant on MN.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 17:53:56

Xost meant that thing bout lax parenting whatever that is/meant.

Chubfuddler Tue 02-Oct-12 17:55:45

No, I meant I can't see any difference between "hope its a lesson learned" and "hope they learn their lesson".

Narked Tue 02-Oct-12 17:56:22

Why does this always happen? The thing that every parent dreads happens to some poor people and fuckwits start picking them apart.

Fobwatch Tue 02-Oct-12 17:57:36

It's called the "Just World Hypothesis".

It's a form of cognitive dissonance that people engage it..."I would never let my children play out alone / play out that late / in the dark / wear such a short skirt / walk down a dark alley [insert perceived risky behaviour] so I / my child will be safe and nothing bad will happen".

It's a way of trying to convincing oneself that one can exert control over events such that determined criminals / rapists / paedophiles are responsible for by suggesting the victim or victims families just did not do enough.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 17:58:00

Well perhaps cazbody was being heartless and cruel. I didn't read it like that and get all hysterical about it. What she said was badly worded but I think being called heartless, cruel eyc etc is a huge overreaction. It seemed pretty clear she was trying to say she hoped that the girl came back safely and the parents could put it down to experience. Whichever way you look at it that is the best outcome. They certainly wouldnt let her out to play again would they as they would be too petrified.

It's a horrible thing to happen to a family, and ultimately they have been very very unlucky.

DisappointedHorse Tue 02-Oct-12 17:59:37

"hard not to judge..... a 5yo playing out unsupervised at that time" and "they have a chance to learn their lesson" So who is they? I'm not trying to twist her wording but honestly? Come on!

Sorry to use you an example cazboldy but let's face it. You did judge.

Victim blaming right royally pisses me off.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 18:02:56

The girl is the victim she didn't blame her.

You missed out where she said she hoped the girl was returned safely.

Chubfuddler Tue 02-Oct-12 18:03:58

Oh shut up all of you.

They've got the coastguard searching a river now.

OhSoSimple Tue 02-Oct-12 18:04:13

You have picked out the bits to suit your outrage just as some posters are focused on the fact she was playing out alone at 7pm.

EdMcDunnough Tue 02-Oct-12 18:05:38

I read somewhere that they had all just returned from a parents' evening at school about 10 minutes earlier.

It looks like a very quiet estate, there were other children with her. It doesn't sound beyond the realms of 'safe' to me at all.

And bad things happen to children who are in 'safe' environments - depending on who is around and decides to do something disruptive.

I don't think these poor parents did ANYthing wrong, and yes I have a 5yo myself, and I don't live somewhere that it would be very safe to let him out at 7pm but from the looks of it they made a rational and competent decision and it wasn't their fault anything went wrong sad

MrFlibble Tue 02-Oct-12 18:05:45

What lesson's are there to be learnt? A child was playing with friends outside her own house. It was not her or her parents fault that she was abducted.

And why are people banging on about 7pm being too late for her to be out? Is there some rule saying people of a dodgy character and inclination to abduct children are not allowed out before evening time that I don't know about? confused

RubixCube Tue 02-Oct-12 18:09:34

FGS she was late out because she had gone to a parent conference and her mum let her out to play with friends for a few minutes.She wasnt left out all night.Im sure the poor parents feel alot of guilt.But no ones to blame exept the disgusting scum that took her

Posterofapombear Tue 02-Oct-12 18:14:18

I live about 15 miles away and to say it is a quiet safe area is an understatement. People leave their keys in cars, doors unlocked and children play out.

It's normally like living in the '50's.

But even if it wasn't it is only the perpetrators fault.

Lizzylou Tue 02-Oct-12 18:15:50

Is anyone familiar with Machynlleth and the area? It is a sleepy, "safe" place. Hardly the bloody Bronx! The only person at fault is the person who snatched that little girl.

ShellyBoobs Tue 02-Oct-12 18:20:05

Let's hope that the care and compassion being shown by the many hundreds of volunteers helping in the search is repaid with a positive outcome.

Her poor parents must be going through hell and I can't even imagine what little April is going through.

Thoughts and prayers are with them all.


LtEveDallas Tue 02-Oct-12 18:23:32

DD used to play out all the time at age 5 (she still does now). I didn't supervise her constantly, just checked on her now and then. If you live in a 'safe' place (as I have heard this place is), you don't worry about it.

I hope she is found safe and well.

I really hope she's found safe and well, poor little love.
It brought a tear to my eye when I saw her photo, my DD is almost 5 and I honestly can't imagine what her parents are going through sad

Growlithe Tue 02-Oct-12 18:25:52

Some horrible stuff has been said on this thread. Sadly I don't think it's been by trolls. I think it's been by parents. sad

drummerswife Tue 02-Oct-12 18:28:18

i know machynlleth as we use a friends holiday home near there
i also have a schoolfriend who lives there and who is helping with the search.it is a lovely area and i would feel happy letting my dd play outside there.
hoping april is found safe x

AvonCallingBarksdale Tue 02-Oct-12 18:30:53

Please stop attributing blame and picking apart what posters have been saying. Unless I've missed a news update, April is still missing and it's all I can do not to burst into tears when I look at my own 5yr Old DD and imagine how absolutely bloody terrified she'd be without me or DH sad

margerykemp Tue 02-Oct-12 18:31:13

they are searching a river now sad

MOSagain Tue 02-Oct-12 18:32:51

I don't think horrible stuff was said intentionally, people were just I believe expressing their concern and perhaps suprise that she was out so late.
Like everyone else, praying for her safe return.

SheppySheepdog Tue 02-Oct-12 18:37:53

Worst nightmare scenario, I actually feel sick. There are some evil bastards in this world.

RubixCube Tue 02-Oct-12 18:38:36

Its a parents worst nightmare.I remember when my boy of 3 at the time done a runner in a shop.Id only turned around for a second and he was completely gone.I felt physically sick and was crying as i could not find him any where.I'd seen him starting to walk out the doors holding the hands of two women.I shouted out his name and he ungripped them and run to me.Horrifying experience

hellymelly Tue 02-Oct-12 18:38:59

I live in a similar area and I leave my door unlocked too. Safety of children playing out is generally more to do with lack of traffic and safety in numbers than whether its the town or a country. Lots of children played out in the estates near to where I lived in North London, there were a lot of them of all ages, much like when I was a child. And yet country dwellers might think letting a child play out in london is madness. (cctv everywhere though, and lots of people about, so actually as safe as you are going to get anywhere). Impossible to judge how an area feels unless you live there.
I hope she is found safe asap, poor little girl.

The only person in the wrong here is whoever has taken her. My heart goes out to April and her family, what a godawful thing for them to be going through.

lovechoc Tue 02-Oct-12 19:01:17

I was a bit hmm as to why a 5yo was playing outside at 7pm in October. My 5yo is in bed at this time! There's no way he'd be outside playing at that time! For a start, parents need some peace and quiet to themselves come 7pm.

Really hope she is found soon. Cannot stop thinking about this since I heard it on the radio yesterday at 5pm.

lovechoc Tue 02-Oct-12 19:04:04

"It's cruel to try and twist her wording."

Happens a lot on MN, I'm afraid.

usualsuspect3 Tue 02-Oct-12 19:52:05

No need for anyone to twist your words, lovechoc.

avenueone Tue 02-Oct-12 19:57:56

as darkness falls and they start to search a river I feel this may not have a happy ending but I pray it does. It sounds like the poor lamb has got into the van of someone she knew.
What those parents must be feeling god only knows - I pray to god she is safe.

HerOffTheInternet Tue 02-Oct-12 19:59:48

<updates shit list>

some of the parent-blaming i've seen over this is stomach-churning

Tuttutitlookslikerain Tue 02-Oct-12 20:01:21

I don't see why anyone is hmm about a 5yo playing out at 7pm. It wouldn't be dark in West Wales at that time, my DC were never in bed at 7pm when they were 5. Different strokes for different folks and all that!

The only person people should be judging ad picking apart is the nasty bastard who has taken this gorgeous little girl away from her family.

I hope and pray she is found soon. Poor little lamb must be so scared.

MrFlibble Tue 02-Oct-12 20:02:14

How could you of heard at 5pm yesterday lovechoc? She went missing after that time.

Fishwife1949 Tue 02-Oct-12 20:16:17

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usualsuspect3 Tue 02-Oct-12 20:19:31

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scottishmummy Tue 02-Oct-12 20:21:41

the only irrefutable fact is wee girl missing
anything else speculation
some mn ghouls love to cast aspersions about parents eg McCann threads,and here

Growlithe Tue 02-Oct-12 20:24:36

But Fishwife, you and your mummy mates are throwing accusations at the named parents. Surely that's out of order too?

Tweet2tweet Tue 02-Oct-12 20:36:05

A lovely little girl has gone missing, it's cold and dark and she is all on her own. She wants her mummy, daddy, sister and brother to come and find her and they can do nothing to help her.

Imagine how that feels, imagine how that will be tearing her family a part.

Perhaps everyone should just focus on sending postive thoughts to wee April and to that poor, poor family going through what must be a living hell.

Tuttutitlookslikerain Tue 02-Oct-12 20:41:06

'Wales is usually a lot colder and darker than it is here'

Not true at all. The sun sets later the further west you go, so West Wales would not have been dark last night at 7pm.

Lizzylou Tue 02-Oct-12 20:42:20

Fishwife, I completely agree with Usualsuspect's very succinct opinion on you and your mates.

As has been said a few times, I'll shout though for the hard of thinking


Some sixth sense you've got there Lovechoc. 5pm yesterday??? hmm

Does it really honestly matter right now whether April should/shouldn't have been out at that time, all that matters is that that little girl gets back home to her family. All my hopes and best wishes are sent to this family and April to be found safe.

CheerfulYank Tue 02-Oct-12 20:45:59

I don't get this "should be in bed" thing either honestly...maybe it's just an American thing but I know one parent whose kids go to bed at 7:00, and I only know because every one else talks about it like it's bizarre.

Poor little girl...hope she is found soon. She must be terrified.

whistlestopcafe Tue 02-Oct-12 20:49:10

It was dark here at 7 pm yesterday but that is not really relevant. According to reports her parents were at a parents evening with her older brother and April was playing with her next door neighbours little girl right outside their houses.

Perhaps she was playing outside because her parents only planned to be gone a short while and had asked the neighbour to keep an eye on her.

SeaShellsMyDogTrulySmells Tue 02-Oct-12 20:55:22

FFs the reports are saying the man they have arrested was known to the family and she got into the van willingly. If this is the case, she would have been as much at risk in her home as playing outside of it.

When will people realise the boogy man stranger hiding in the shadows is v v rare - it is their caretaker/teacher/priest/family member/trusted friend that could be a risk. Bitching about parenting right now, whilst she is still missing is just so ill judged.

NimpyWindowMash Tue 02-Oct-12 20:57:56

Those complaining about the parents... FFS
Do not judge them. Judge the person who has taken her.

Well i wish my DS went to bed at 7pm .. unfortunately he's always wide awake at that time and so are many other kids well at least they don't look like they're in bed on bonfire night and halloween when fireworks kick off at 8 i don't see loads of parents leaving at 6 30 to make sure they get their kids into bed by 7..

Fwiw Ds1's GP's live in a similar area and all the kids just mill about in little groups or even on their own, its not like inner city or suburbia, the kids have so much more freedom, its great. Until something like this happens.

Some rotten things been said on here really. Hate to point out that most abusers are members or friends of a family, able to get close enough to groom a child.

I hope she is found safe. The people out there searching for her shows real community spirit i hope they get rewarded by finding her alive xx

hellymelly Tue 02-Oct-12 21:08:57

How dark it is depends on where you live. West Wales is dark later than London for instance. I would have thought it was dusk where she was last night, not pitch black night.

ohanotherone Tue 02-Oct-12 21:26:13

It is not really dark here in wales at that time. It is usual for kids to play on quiet estates outsides their homes because everyone knows each other. It seems as if this white man, if he is involved, was a local person or lived locally too. I hope that she is found safe and well. Poor little thing.

It was dusk it said in the paper and on the news about the colour of the van being grey but hard to discern 100% as it was dusk and hard to see.

topknob Tue 02-Oct-12 21:28:38

The girl is missing, they have arrested a man, yet the girl has not been found. Now a 12 mile stretch of road has been closed, pretty fucking obvious what has happened, show some compassion ffs !!!!!!

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 02-Oct-12 21:37:08

I really hope they find her safe.

I think the parents are going through enough without having their parenting dissected and talked about by people who don't know them or all the facts.
I have a five year old girl and i let her play out in the street have done since she was 4. I think it depends on the area you live and how sensible the child is.

I also live in wales and it was not dark last night at that time.

I think we all just need to hope and pray that she is safe and found soon. The alternative is too awful to contemplate.

My heart goes out to her and to her parents.

caramelwaffle Tue 02-Oct-12 22:04:34

Local man has been arrested.

Hopefully she will be found safe and well soon!

avenueone Tue 02-Oct-12 22:24:14

If I was that child's parent and I knew they were holding someone I just don't know how I would stop myself from heading to that police station. (I know I wouldn't be able to but YUWIM).

Well i just informed DP that if we lived in an area like that i would be happy to let DS2 out at the age of 5 to play. (From looking at the map)

I can't see anything else on the news except what was said 4 hours ago.

We need an amber alert system in this country.

Hope April is found safe and well. Thinking of her parents and family. Heartbreaking to read about it sad

I'm sooo hoping this little girl is found safe and well.

I can only imagine what her parents are going through sad

Tiredmumno1 Tue 02-Oct-12 23:47:10

Fishwife afaik it wasn't the police that named him, it was the locals.

Also it's been reported that they were at a parents evening and had just got back, her mum let April play out for ten minutes whilst she fixed tea.

I think the parents will be feeling bad enough as it is, without having people judging why she was out, I will repeat what other people are saying, the ONLY person to blame here, is whoever took her.

adeucalione Tue 02-Oct-12 23:57:36

The Telegraph are reporting that one of the children April had been playing with was Bridger's daughter, that he had three ex-wives and six children living nearby, and that he was known to April's parents - if true it is unsurprising that she got ino the van willingly.

The fact that his name was given to Police by April's parents when they first contacted them suggests either that he was recognised by one of the children or had a dodgy reputation I suppose.

It seems that police are still searching the river near to where his van was found, really really wishing for a happy ending.

geologygirl Wed 03-Oct-12 00:40:46

Really doesnt matter if it was dark or not - a child can be taken at any time these days. We all have our own rules at home about what time kids should be in, but I just hope they find her and she's OK. She must be so frightened. Poor thing.

Not4turning Wed 03-Oct-12 00:52:11

It's easy to put blame somewhere. The person in the wrong here is the person who took April.

I don't live in such a small community but if I were coming home at dusk in a tiny community such as theirs, I might have said to my 5 year old, 'go on then, just a few minutes and then bed'.

We go camping and allow our children freedom like they have never known.

James Bulgers mum was in the butchers at lunchtime. She didn't know that it was a life changing moment.

I really hope that April is found still alive. I doubt it. This is cringeworthy. Something her parents will have to live with as long as they are alive. It will destroy their family and for what, because some sicko who probably has previous convictions was allowed out into our world, ready to do worse than they'd done before for a thrill!

RubixCube Wed 03-Oct-12 09:33:44

The police have now said to leave searching to them.Doesn't sound good sad

sad I hope she is found safe, but it is looking more bleak.
To also those that want to finger point, the parents will be suffering enoughsad

irishbab Wed 03-Oct-12 09:57:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lougle Wed 03-Oct-12 10:35:01

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frumpet Wed 03-Oct-12 10:55:17

Irishbab be careful if you don't know the true details about the conviction , it could turn nasty if you arnt careful .

Catkinsthecatinthehat Wed 03-Oct-12 11:09:02

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Irishbab FFS isn't one thread to spout shit about this particular individual enough for you!

missymoomoomee Wed 03-Oct-12 11:46:33

Irish you don't know for sure, your friend heard something from her friend who is his neighbour. I think its pretty disrespectful to come on this thread about a girl who really is in danger to vent about your gossip when you already have a thread going about your rumour and just didn't like what you were hearing.

NopofacehaveI Wed 03-Oct-12 11:50:46

Irishbab in mindful of a "dead cert" sex offender at dds old school who was hounded from his house and attacked and various other situAtions which put his wife and children in danger only for it to be playground gossip.

A convicted offender will have rules about being with children unsupervised or without parent of that Childs permission. If that's truly the case the head will be aware but I would be very careful about what you have heard second hand!

Ephiny Wed 03-Oct-12 11:52:12

Yes it's disrespectful and crass to derail this thread in the hope of finding a more receptive audience for your gossip irishbab.

porcamiseria Wed 03-Oct-12 11:55:03

lovechoc, my kids go to bed at 9pm

just such a vole thing to have said

but its a vile and upsetting tale anyway

matana Wed 03-Oct-12 12:14:11

I will never for the life of me understand why Madeline McCann's parents left her in their apartment while they went for a meal with friends. But that does not stop me feeling desperately sorry for their plight and sick to my stomach at how utterly powerless and desperate they must have felt. I have no opinion on what constitutes 'dusk' or 'playing out too late'. I just feel mortified for her and for her family. I only hope she will be found alive, though that hope is disappearing. I couldn't carry on living if something awful happened to my precious DS. God only knows how they must be feeling.

sookiesookie Wed 03-Oct-12 13:52:19

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boschy Wed 03-Oct-12 15:03:29

ah jesus, I just heard the poor mother. and now they are dredging the river. so, so sad.

Animation Wed 03-Oct-12 15:25:47

If it was me I would find this so hard not force myself into that police station and scag whoever they've got in for questioning - and fucking torture the truth out of him.

MrsSalvoMontalbano Wed 03-Oct-12 16:12:24

Animation - indeed - presumably his laywer will have have told him not to answer questions, so if he is the perp, must be unbelievably frustrating for the police if he says silent sad.

financialwizard Wed 03-Oct-12 16:23:41

My heart goes out to that little girls family. What an awful thing to happen, even though it is not their doing you can guarantee they are probably blaming themselves. Your worst nightmare.

Whatever the outcome I hope that they find that little girl for their peace of mind.

LouMacca Wed 03-Oct-12 17:00:55

I remember watching a documentary about Roy Whiting - the scum who murdered Sarah Payne - and he would only answer questions with 'no comment' God, that must have been so frustrating for the police!

Poor little girl and poor parents sad

lovechoc Wed 03-Oct-12 19:15:40

Lizzylou that was a blunder of mine. Sorry! blush I meant when I heard the news as it broke on the radio (which obviously wasn't 5pm on the Monday). Error on my part.

"Well i wish my DS went to bed at 7pm .. unfortunately he's always wide awake at that time and so are many other kids well at least they don't look like they're in bed on bonfire night and halloween when fireworks kick off at 8 i don't see loads of parents leaving at 6 30 to make sure they get their kids into bed by 7.."

Thingsthatmakeyougohmm - DS1 (5yo) is always awake between 6-7am every morning (and has been known to have been earlier some weekdays!), and even when we've let him stay up 'late' in the evenings (to around 8-8.30pm), we find that he'll get up even earlier the following morning, so no one is a winner. He will sleep longer if he goes to bed earlier, IYKWIM? DS2 goes to sleep between 6-7pm (he's 2yo).

DS1 does get to stay up later on special occasions like Bonfire Night, Hallowe'en, Christmas, etc. But as a general rule, tucking-in to bed time is 7pm.

Anyway, that's by the by, the main issue is that the little girl is found safe and well. That's all that really matters in all of this. Everything crossed she is found..

CheerfulYank Wed 03-Oct-12 20:35:14

Oh, her mum's appeal. I'm just in floods.

Someone knows where she is. It is heartbreaking. sad

MarthasHarbour Wed 03-Oct-12 20:52:02

I am ignoring all the mindless shit about what time she was out until. Take your perfect parenting elsewhere hmm

This case is making me feel sick, the fact that they have a suspect in custody yet no further forward in finding poor April is just heartbreaking. It hadnt occurred to me that he would be saying 'no comment'

DS is 3yo and i let him play in our back garden unsupervised - i reckon that it is v secure (high fences all round) but - shit - you never know.

The only reason i let my DS (age 3) in my garden unsupervised is because he is out with the dog and that hound wouldn't let anyone take him. Well my garden was secure till me neighbour chopped the flippin hedge down angry

My aunt holidays in wales and for all the people who think it was dark by that time, it wasn't. Why people feel the need to nitpick at times like this i will never know. Their fingers will be better occupied by being sat on imo

RubixCube Thu 04-Oct-12 06:55:49

The sad thing is instead of going on about the scum that took her people keep going on about the parents.The amount of bile on my networks commenting service is vile.They are completely missing the fact that a child has been snatched and goodness knows how shes suffering but all they can do is moan about the parents.What perfect parents they must be.

exoticfruits Thu 04-Oct-12 07:04:08

I haven't read it all RubixCube, I can't stand people being armchair judges when someone is in dire distress., but I believe it is an insurance policy - people find a reason and blame the parents. They think 'I would never do that, therefore my child will be safe'. Sadly it isn't true- it can happen to anyone - there is no immunity card. Compassion is needed- not judgement.

scrablet Thu 04-Oct-12 07:13:11

She needs medication, poor little April and has been away 3 nights. It makes makes my heart hurt. She is so vulnerable.

VivaLeBeaver Thu 04-Oct-12 07:15:14

The problem is, if its him he will know that if the girl is never found then the chances of him been convicted of anything are less as there's no forensic evidence. So if he doesn't confess and police don't find anything then his chances of walking away are higher.

Of course he could be innocent and thats why the police are no further forward.

It concerns me that he's been arrested just becuase he has a left hand drive vehicle and the witness seemed to think it was a left hand drive.

Animation Thu 04-Oct-12 07:16:27

It must the most painful pain - ever for those parents. I guess we all know that.

janey68 Thu 04-Oct-12 07:41:51

These threads are so depressing and are always a reminder that there are a lot of people out there who lack basic intelligence, and assume that the moment someone is questioned for something, they MUST be guilty. Those who said they'd like to 'storm the police station and torture the person arrested' - well, hope youve got your cheap thrills from fantasising about that hmm

A vulnerable little girl is missing. That is the only definite fact right now and all that matters is finding her. If a person/people are responsible for this then we need to hope they are brought to account through the proper channels.

Animation Thu 04-Oct-12 07:51:24

"'storm the police station and torture the person arrested' - well, hope youve got your cheap thrills from fantasising about that"

Janey I said that. And don't be silly.

Putting myself in the parents shoes - I would want to do that if it was my kid. That's called empathy.

MOSagain Thu 04-Oct-12 08:13:39

I went for a very rare trip to the cinema last and watched the Sweeney. I know its not entirely factual but I'm sure a lot of police officers were probably like that back then, ie hanging suspects upside down off roofs until they got answers. Of course that doesn't happen now but you have to sort of think well they had a point, if it got the answers.

Like other posters, I agree it must be so frustrating for the police to just get the 'no comment' answers all the time.

So very very sad. I suspect the first thing most of us do first thing in the morning and last thing at night is check the news at the moment. Still praying that she will be found safe.

What I don't understand, is if the police thought this man was involved, why they didn't follow him for a while before arresting him?

RubixCube Thu 04-Oct-12 08:17:24

What i don't understand is the vehicle they showed was different to the one reported.

cory Thu 04-Oct-12 08:23:09

"I went for a very rare trip to the cinema last and watched the Sweeney. I know its not entirely factual but I'm sure a lot of police officers were probably like that back then, ie hanging suspects upside down off roofs until they got answers. Of course that doesn't happen now but you have to sort of think well they had a point, if it got the answers."

The problem was it so often got the wrong answers: people confessed to things they hadn't done and couldn't possibly have done just to get out of there, meaning that investigations went down the wrong track and the real perpetrators got away.

Think about it, if you were in pain, not allowed to sleep for days on end, humiliated and frigthtened, which would you rather tell- the truth or whatever you thought most likely to make the whole thing stop?

There are good reasons why torture is not allowed - and it's not all about consideration for potential perpetrators, either.

MOSagain Thu 04-Oct-12 08:28:14

cory I didn't say I condoned that behaviour, I just said I could sort of understand why SOME police officers would be tempted to do it if it meant for example, finding/saving the life of a small and vulnerable child.

Animation Thu 04-Oct-12 08:47:47

Everybody -

Let people express an emotive/empathic reponse to this horrendous situation if they so wish. This thread should be more about sharing the pain than anything else. We can't keep repeating in cats bum mouth fashion - that we hope things are resolved and those responsible are brought to account. We are PASSIONATE about our kids - and all kids in general - this situation stirs up passion and confronts our worst fears. We are not one dimensional people - we may wish to respond on many levels.

MrsSalvoMontalbano Thu 04-Oct-12 09:30:51

I'm sure police being human would be tempted in this situation to bend the rules if tehy believe the have the guilty perosn in custody, but they have to be mindful of vultures lawyers who will look for any error or inrregularity in process to escaped a conviction in the evnt of a charge. Agree about the police following the suspect him before arrest - maybe they did! But then, if they had followed him for longer did there would a vast outcry about not apprehending a suspect sooner...

lovechoc Thu 04-Oct-12 10:03:29

"What i don't understand is the vehicle they showed was different to the one reported."

That is also something that doesn't make sense, does it? I thought this as well. Something's not adding up.

ShellyBoobs Thu 04-Oct-12 10:19:04

...and fucking torture the truth out of him.

Are you fucking bonkers? shock That would be incredibly unhelpful; the man might be innocent!

He might 'confess' to something he didn't do in order to get the torture to stop. How would that help??

But, I suppose in the world of frenzied Facebollocks 'likes' it would be a very popular thing to say.

Don't confuse emotive/empathic with the quite simple 'thick'.

Chubfuddler Thu 04-Oct-12 10:41:46

Lets hope there's a vulture lawyers prepared to assist when someone decides to torture you into confessing to something mrsalvo.

God the Daily Mail has a lot to answer for.

Animation Thu 04-Oct-12 10:44:46

Shelly - I am expressing an empathic resonse if that is OK with you! And try not to be so insulting - peoples' emotions run high on a subject like this and they have a right to express it without being shot down in flames.

This thread could do with less arguing and more sharing of PAIN.

MOSagain Thu 04-Oct-12 10:45:56

Yes, agree with Animation, the only thing that matters is that she is found

whistlestopcafe Thu 04-Oct-12 10:47:29

I'm sure the police are privy to information that we are not aware of. Perhaps the suspect changed cars or perhaps the witness was very vague about the vehicle. The police have stressed that they are pursuing other lines of inquiry. They released the suspects name for a reason. We have to presume that the police are doing their jobs properly, we have no reason to suspect otherwise.

Animation Thu 04-Oct-12 10:50:09

How would you react if this was happening to you and a man had been in custody for this lenght of time?

Do you think you'd be rational and mild mannered about it all?

I wouldn't.

Growlithe Thu 04-Oct-12 10:50:31

What are you all on about? It's not 'having a cat's bum face' to want not to torture someone in custody. If he is guilty he his our best chance of finding her, and the interviews will need to be performed by very skilled officers, not a gang of meat head vigilantes. Give the police some credit will you?

As for his solicitor, I'm absolutely certain he will be advising him that if he knows something that will help find her he should speak up. That would be in his best interests.

Growlithe Thu 04-Oct-12 10:51:45

Sorry for the few mixed up words there

Animation Thu 04-Oct-12 10:52:19

To Chub.

Chubfuddler Thu 04-Oct-12 10:53:11

If this was my child I wouldn't be rational and mild mannered no. But fortunately we have the rule of law in this country, not the baying mob in charge.

Animation Thu 04-Oct-12 10:57:42

Don't know about baying mob but I would be a baying mother.

I can't perceive how frustrating and devastating this must feel for them.

scrablet Thu 04-Oct-12 11:05:38

poor, poor girl. poor, poor parents.
No words for whoever DID this.

MrsSalvoMontalbano Thu 04-Oct-12 11:22:12

Err... Chub, I did not advocate torture - think you are mixing me up with someone else confused

NopofacehaveI Thu 04-Oct-12 16:29:49

sky news are making me angry. They are literally stomping through the search areas and Kay Burley has zero compassion.

lovechoc Thu 04-Oct-12 16:31:43

Don't watch Sky News then.

NopofacehaveI Thu 04-Oct-12 16:48:39

I'm not! I was somewhere with a big screen.

joona Thu 04-Oct-12 19:09:32

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Houseworkprocrastinator Thu 04-Oct-12 19:20:56

I really hope that her poor mother never reads that joona.

Why even say it then joona?

I don't think the parents need judgemental comments - if she'd been taken 45 mins earlier would you have managed just to have posted a sympathetic comment?

A pink ribbon from me to show my support for the search for April and her family who must be going through hell.

joona Thu 04-Oct-12 19:34:17

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madamim Thu 04-Oct-12 19:36:59

With reference to the vehicle, they informed the public that they were looking for a light coloured vehicle that was either similar to a van or a Landrover , Mark Bridger has a Landrover Discovery. The police also revealed that due to the door April entered the car it was most likely left hand drive, Mark Bridgers' Landrover Discovery is left hand drive.

missymoomoomee Thu 04-Oct-12 19:38:16

Whats that joona a lesson in perfect parenting?

I hate to burst your bubble but there is no such thing, every parent has been in a situation where something truely awful could have happened and its been through sheer luck it hasn't.

Aprils parents will be agonising over their choice that night every day of their lives they don't need judgmental comments from anyone else.

Growlithe Thu 04-Oct-12 20:18:34

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madamim Thu 04-Oct-12 20:39:33

Just watching Sky News and feel quite chilled to the bone from what the Super has said 'We are working through the night to bring this investigation to a conclusion' I really hope that my feeling are wrong and April is found

madamim Thu 04-Oct-12 20:58:41

Just watching Sky News and feel quite chilled to the bone from what the Super has said 'We are working through the night to bring this investigation to a conclusion' I really hope that my feeling are wrong and April is found

I can't remember wanting anything so badly for someone I've never met.

I so want Coral Jones to be able to hold her little girl in her arms and tuck her up safe and warm in bed. Please let her be found alive, it's unbearable to think of any other outcome sad

madamim Thu 04-Oct-12 21:12:02

I do to IVP, I hope they get to cwtch each other again

Growlithe Thu 04-Oct-12 21:12:21

I know Invisible. I can't stop checking the news sites. I feel sick when I think of her. I just can't bear to try and imagine the pain Coral is going through. I also feel for the police and volunteers. Frustration at not finding anything, mixed with fear of what you may find. An awful job to do.

Stokey38 Thu 04-Oct-12 21:13:28

Joona Really, those sorts of comments are so unhelpful. The poor woman has had her daughter abducted. She obviously thought her daughter was safe. We have all made parenting decision, that with hindsight, may not have been the best but have not had to pay this horrendous price. Have some humanity.

MarthasHarbour Thu 04-Oct-12 21:27:46

'irresponsible' joona for crying out loud shock can you honestly say hand on heart that you have made completely responsible decisions for your son over the last 9 years. <hands joona a medal>

i keep hugging DS, he is 3. I was drying him after his bath tonight thinking Coral should be doing this with April. It is so bloody heartbreaking sad

chipmonkey Thu 04-Oct-12 22:17:38

The thing is, that poor Mum will already be blaming herself. And I know that for me and for other parents that I know, that you can be very PFB about your first child and wrap them in cotton wool. By the third, you give them a much freer reign than you gave your first!
I am missing a daughter too but my little one died of SIDS. Doctors, nurses, medical staff told me I did nothing wrong but I know what it's like to still blame yourself regardless.
And I can only imagine the panic and despair those poor parents are going through, not knowing where their child is and if she'll ever be found.

joona Thu 04-Oct-12 22:19:13

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mellen Thu 04-Oct-12 22:25:17


Do you think that a child cant be abducted in daylight?

And this isnt really very much like the mccann case is it?

Tiredmumno1 Thu 04-Oct-12 22:30:11

I thought that some posters on another thread from the area actually said it was still light at the time April was taken.

Lcy Thu 04-Oct-12 22:33:20

It is still light at 7.30 in west Wales

scottishmummy Thu 04-Oct-12 22:33:56

it's unfortunate casting aspersions on the parents
they have done nothing wrong
save your consternation for the perpetrator

joona You cannot compare this to the mcann case as it is not at all the same.
I just hope April is found safe & returned to her parents.
They are going through enough

missymoomoomee Thu 04-Oct-12 22:53:58

joona I sincerely hope you are never in the position of having your parenting judged by one action. Aprils parents are going through absolute hell just now so to come onto a thread in a public forum to tell us what time you let your dc out until serves no purpose other than to try and make yourself look better and more responsible than you perceive them to be.

PickledFanjoCat Thu 04-Oct-12 23:00:51

It makes fuck all difference what time she was out until. whoever has taken her has taken an opportunity. It could have been lunchtime morning noon or bloody night.

The parents are not to blame, the bloody pedophile is.

Awful shite to come out with.

BoffinMum Thu 04-Oct-12 23:03:39

In suburban areas where kids play out together in groups, it is not unusual for 5 year olds to be out and about until about 7-8pm, tbh.

scottishmummy Thu 04-Oct-12 23:06:05

no 5 yo out at 7-8pm where I live
none at all. it would be more than unusual it would be exceptional and rare
but time out in the case of April is irrelevant

PickledFanjoCat Thu 04-Oct-12 23:08:25

It all depends, my sisters nice small estate, yes.

Irrelevant anyway as you say. These people wait watch and take their opportunity.

Slainte Thu 04-Oct-12 23:09:03

Well said Pickled

BoffinMum Thu 04-Oct-12 23:16:03

A lot has to do with geography, street lighting, traffic and the number of other children who also play out at that time regularly. So I think you can't really generalise.

Growlithe Thu 04-Oct-12 23:22:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

brdgrl Thu 04-Oct-12 23:24:35

Her mum is quite possibly a MNer.

My DSCs were involved (some time ago) in a sad story that made the news. The comments that people made on that story were mostly sympathetic - but some were awful.

Thanks to the internet, a basic google search brings up those stories and those comments. My DSCs - small children then, and teenagers now - have those comments to deal with on top of everything else. It is sickening.

Obviously this event is a news story and we all want to discuss it freely - but perhaps people should keep in mind that these poor parents may read their words. If you wouldn't say it to them, is there really a benefit to saying it here?

scottishmummy Thu 04-Oct-12 23:38:47

my factual experience where I live no 5yo kids out til 7-8pm
generalising is suggesting 7-8pm is not unusual.it is where I am
clearly it differs by locality and has no bearing on this case

JakeBullet Fri 05-Oct-12 06:00:51

They have until 5pm today to charge or release the man being held. I have never known the police release info like they have about this man. They must be fairly certain they have the right person.

Growlithe Fri 05-Oct-12 06:31:42

Jake I thought this at first, but its such an unusual case in that time is of the essence, that maybe they haven't had the luxury of doing everything by the book.

If I was him, I wouldn't want to be released though.

I hope they don't realise him, he must be a prime suspect as they have released his picture & even a picture of his car.
It is said April got into his car by her friends, do the children's accounts not matter enough?
I just can see why they are going to release him, when he is obviously a major part of this case.

I think the laws in this country are awful, they should be able to question him aslong as they need. They have kept him since tuesday so im guessing they are just needing the evidence of abduction to be allowed to keep him.

janey68 Fri 05-Oct-12 07:34:17

Pumpkin- that's the sort of misinformation which is SO unhelpful. Other children did NOT report seeing the girl get into the suspects vehicle. They saw her getting into a vehicle which may or may not belong to the suspect.

And you really believe the police should be allowed to hold people for questioning without any time limit? hmm

TunaPastaBake Fri 05-Oct-12 07:43:58

''I think the laws in this country are awful, they should be able to question him aslong as they need.''

slippery slope and very naïve.

Come on, why have they released his picture then?
It is not common practice to release a picture of a suspect.
What if it is him and they set him free-what good would it do? And if it wasn't him then why have they had him in for questioning since tuesday?
She also got in the car willingly also

TunaPastaBake Fri 05-Oct-12 07:51:26

No its not common practice to release a picture of a suspect but there is a child's life at risk here.

justbreathe Fri 05-Oct-12 07:55:09

This is such a compellingly awful story. I can't begin to imagine what her family are going through right now. It's every mother's worst nightmare. I am sending out as much love and supportive energy as possible into the universe for her to be found alive.

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 08:08:04

I hope she is found alive.But i can't help but think they would have found by now if she was.If she is she is gunna be hungry,thirsty cold, in pain and goodness knows what else.I just hope she gets all the support she deserves and needs along with her family if the do find her

Ephiny Fri 05-Oct-12 09:42:15

The laws may seem 'awful' but you'd be glad of them if you or one of your family was wrongly accused of a crime. We can't just throw away our rights and liberties over an emotive case like this.

hackmum Fri 05-Oct-12 09:52:25

It's a strange case - if they've got the right man, then he can't have taken April very far, so you would think that, given the extensive search they've made, they'd have found her by now. I keep thinking: what if they've got the wrong person, and the real abductor has taken her far away by now?

I know this is idle speculation, and I agree the police must feel confident they've got the right man, given the details they've released, but there is something odd about it all.

I thought that hack - what if she has shut herself somewhere by accident and everyone is focussing on the wrong thing because of the detail of this suspect.

But I suppose we have to assume that the police have thought all that through.

cheekybarsteward Fri 05-Oct-12 10:48:03

He has just been charged with murder sad

MrsSalvoMontalbano Fri 05-Oct-12 10:48:41

Oliver - indeed. I'm haunted by teh propect of something like the story by Niccolo Amanti called 'I'm not scared' about a boy that was kidnapped and hidden in a well The suspected perp was arrested for an unrelated crime, and so couldn't ftake food to him etc and he died

Latest news is that Bridger has now been arrested on suspicion of the murder of April Jones.


Why would somebody do this to an innocent child.

Chubfuddler Fri 05-Oct-12 10:52:39

FFS mrsalvo.

matana Fri 05-Oct-12 10:59:03

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Houseworkprocrastinator Fri 05-Oct-12 11:09:23

this is so so sad. sad that poor family.

FrothyOM Fri 05-Oct-12 11:10:12

The only person to blame is the person who took her.

I have BBC news on at the moment. Mark Bridger has been arrested for murder although they haven't yet found a body.

I really feel for her family. sad

Animation Fri 05-Oct-12 11:11:21

Oh my Fucking God.

Tiredmumno1 Fri 05-Oct-12 11:14:44

He has been arrested on suspicion of murder

arthurfowlersallotment Fri 05-Oct-12 11:23:46

I have tried to imagine a little bit how her parents are feeling right now and it's impossible to get beyond the horror. My God, it's just unspeakable. I hope they start to get some answers.

Growlithe Fri 05-Oct-12 11:56:50

Evil evil bastard

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 12:15:50

I knew.I just knew when the news said they were looking under paving stones that they knew they was looking for a body.Poor baby.Why would any one do that.Sick evil man

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 12:17:17

My thoughts go to the family.The are going to be in so much pain sad

Tweet2tweet Fri 05-Oct-12 12:52:42

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RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 13:03:25

I wish everyone would shut about about the times aswell and the fund and the ribbons.And just hope and pray April's body is found and brought home to her family.Can you imagine the pain of knowing your little has passed but not knowing what happened to her or where she is.It's heartbreaking.Her parents sibling and family are going to be distraught they do not need blame

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 13:04:15

shut up about*

arthurfowlersallotment Fri 05-Oct-12 13:09:30

I agree. Discussions about the child playing out are indulgent and unnecessary at this stage.

Boboli Fri 05-Oct-12 13:10:19

I've been waking every morning this week hoping she had been found overnight and that this would have a positive outcome for them. The latest development is terrible news.

All my thoughts are for her poor family who are living through this horrific ordeal.

Chippychop Fri 05-Oct-12 13:13:54

God bless the little lamb she didn't deserve this. My heartfelt thoughts are with her family.

There is no justification for this and I hope her klller gets all he deserves.

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 13:14:50

Lets not forget aswell April's sister is 16.So probaly has internet access.How awful for her to read judgey messages about her parents when they are going through such a nasty ordeal

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 13:15:43

I don't mean just on here.They are every where

Evil fucking bastard, hope he rots in hell.
That poor poor family, my heart goes out to themsad

Oh and all this stuff about 'times' is irrelevent as he was known to the family so could have snatched her at anytime.
Come on people lets pray not judge

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 13:23:43

My dp who doesnt get upset.Can't watch the news or pick up the paper.He said its to upsetting.Little April's disapearance has had an effect on us all.No we won't feel pain like her parent of course we don't.But we can feel empathy,compassion for others.And all i hope is shes brought home to her family

Boboli Fri 05-Oct-12 13:26:12

and the man charged has kids as well. All this must be having a terrible impact on them too - their world must be upside down. It's an awful situation.

Growlithe Fri 05-Oct-12 14:33:26

He hasn't been charged yet. It seems its only a matter of time now though.

Boboli Fri 05-Oct-12 14:38:18

Sorry - slipped up there. No, no charges yet

MarthasHarbour Fri 05-Oct-12 18:11:23

oh god this is just awful sad

my thoughts go out to the family

Growlithe Fri 05-Oct-12 18:23:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ohanotherone Fri 05-Oct-12 20:30:33

Dyfed Powys Police are like those on Hot fuzz...I really hope they've got this right!

NanaNina Fri 05-Oct-12 20:52:40

The police still do not have sufficient evidence to charge Bridgewater and were granted a further 24 hours at Aberystwyth Mag Court this morning. However the arrest is now based on killing the child, rather than abducting the child, so we can only assume something has happened to raise the basis of his arrest. I had assumed they had found the child's body but apparently not.

I think it is going to be difficult to charge him with murder in the absence of the child's body being found, although this has happened in other cases. There's been one in the news quite recently, an adult not a child. The other problem is how much longer the police are going to be granted further extensions.

It goes without saying really doesn't it that it is unimaginable for most of us to understand the true horror of what the parents and siblings and close relatives are going through. I was wondering if the McCanns would be contacting them, as they sadly also experienced the loss of their child.

Tiredmumno1 Fri 05-Oct-12 21:01:19

Nana this is the last extension they can't apply for another, so tomorrow they either have to, charge him, bail him pending further enquiries (I think) or release without charge.

headinhands Fri 05-Oct-12 21:06:11

Nana I read that the MacCanns have been in touch with the family since early on.

headinhands Fri 05-Oct-12 21:18:58

When people judge Paul and Coral Jones it's society's need for the 'Just World' hypothesis. They can't tolerate this awful horrible thing happening without almost victim blaming. People need to make sense of it and being incredulous about the time of night it was is a quick way to account for it. Anything but accept that we're not all the same and that dreadful dreadful things happen in this world. It's certainly not April's parents fault.

Not4turning Fri 05-Oct-12 21:27:23

I just have this view of a man, who hates the police for whatever reason, knowing he has nothing to do with the abduction of April, sitting there saying 'no comment'. I could be very wrong..............

Tiredmumno1 Fri 05-Oct-12 21:27:25

I agree with you headinhands, none of this is their fault whatsoever, and anyone who tries to lay blame on them, should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 22:20:20

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arthurfowlersallotment Fri 05-Oct-12 22:23:05

Where is that reported, Rubix?

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 22:25:44

really sorry.Dp had just read this is now a murder enquiry and assumed they found her body.Sorry for upsetting people then

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 22:26:58

He has avoided the news.So only just seen it.

DuelingFanjo Fri 05-Oct-12 22:27:56

"I just have this view of a man, who hates the police for whatever reason, knowing he has nothing to do with the abduction of April, sitting there saying 'no comment'. I could be very wrong.............. "

really. this is what you think?
Surely it's just as likely that he is saying 'I don't know anything' because he's innocent?

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 22:29:43

I've had to explain to him they have not found her yet.

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RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 22:34:17

I have read there was false reports of a body.Maybe thats what my dp had heard? Its on sky news twitter comments bit.

I thought he looked normal.

Remember Joanna Yeates landlord and be careful what you say.

The police are not infallible - it worries me they haven't been able to charge him. They could have the wrong person.

Yes Rubix they were false reports that surfaced from a mans body being found but it was not that of a child

perceptionreality Fri 05-Oct-12 22:39:25

No, on the news it said that the investigation has become a murder enquiry because of forensic evidence. They will have found something that suggests he was responsible. I'll be very surprised if he is let go tomorrow, that's all I can say.

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 22:42:17

Poor little baby.I have thought about her all day today.Normal people don't just snatch kids.Who ever done this weather the man question or someone else is a sick sick scumbag.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Fri 05-Oct-12 22:44:14

If he is let go tomorrow, I don't think he would get very far.

perceptionreality Fri 05-Oct-12 22:44:55

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DrinkFeckArseGirls Fri 05-Oct-12 22:46:04

buttface I don't think it's because they don't have evidence that they didn't charge him. I think they want him to say where April is. When they charge him, he can't be interviewed anymore some said on another thread.

Exactly perception-There will be a reason he has been arrested for murder.
I just hope for the sake of the little girls family that they find out soon where she issad

I'm guessing to that the suspect has been doing a 'no comment' routine because if he were innocent he would have alibis to where he was that night and there would be no reason to keep him....

I just hope that if this all does turn out to be down to him that the family get justice.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Fri 05-Oct-12 22:48:17

they *haven't charged him' not 'didn't'

whistlestopcafe Fri 05-Oct-12 22:49:25

It is normal to wait until the last minute before pressing charges as they can't interview him once he has been charged. If you look at the majority of cases like this the charges are always brought about in the final hours.

Exactly whistle

Ponders Fri 05-Oct-12 23:00:56

he looks perfectly pleasant here, to be fair

the detail in that piece of the innocent contact April has had with him quite recently makes it baffling to think that he could have done it.

perceptionreality Fri 05-Oct-12 23:07:59

Ponders, seriously you think someone who does awful things will look like a demon or a monster?

Ian Huntley?
Joseph Mengele?
Any other serial killer?

You can't tell what anyone is capable of by looking at them. It's quite simply irrelevant.

NanaNina Fri 05-Oct-12 23:13:42

I am pleased that the police have been able to now arrest him on suspicion of murder rather than abduction, because of forensic evidence, which is of course of huge importance in these kind of cases. Thanks Perceptionreality for pointing that out. I didn't know either that Roy Whiting was convicted on forensic evidence alone.

Headinhands I think the thread has changed from criticising the parents, so not sure why it has been brought up again.

Pumpkin I think to say that he is guilty because he looks evil is a bit out of order to be honest. I know of course that feelings are running high at this awful incident.

I would hope that they charge can come quite soon if there is forensic evidence.

perceptionreality Fri 05-Oct-12 23:16:01

The point all along is that a child is far more likely to be harmed by someone they know well, Danielle Jones for example.

I think this man (if guilty) had been planning this for some time. It would have been much easier for him to take a child with whom he previously built a relationship of trust. Same with Ian Huntley - he was known to the girls and they therefore thought they could trust him. Complete stranger abductions are rare.

DuelingFanjo Fri 05-Oct-12 23:17:13

"He looks evil, everything points to him" yeah, that's such a persuasive argument you have there... I'm now completely convinced of his guilt. In fact why on earth haven't they charged him seeing as he looks so evil?


arthurfowlersallotment Fri 05-Oct-12 23:17:42

It was just reported on the news that forensic evidence led to the murder investigation.

RubixCube Fri 05-Oct-12 23:21:10

Woman batterers look normal and charming.So people on the outside world thinks his a lovely bloke.Just because someone looks normal doesn't mean they are.Its all in the head

Feenie Fri 05-Oct-12 23:24:35

Oh for god's sake, do we have to do the collective moronic 'he looks like a wrong 'un you know' AGAIN???

There is a mere fag paper between some of you lot and the mob who tried to lynch that paediatrician sometimes, I swear.

Ponders Fri 05-Oct-12 23:26:17

no, perceptionreality, I don't think that - I was responding to some who apparently do, & said he looks evil

perceptionreality Fri 05-Oct-12 23:29:11

Yes, sorry ponders I've just realised the wider context of your post. I don't understand why anyone thinks anyone could look evil or good - equally can't understand 'looks evil'!, especially these days - the way he looks is not relevant. He will have been detained due to evidence that he was involved.

Its my opinion, im entitled to it and if they didn't have anything on him he would not still be detained.

noddyholder Sat 06-Oct-12 08:54:47

If they had sufficient to charge him I don,t think they would still be appealing to the public for info re his last movements it is very odd a bit like the man in the bristipol case where they extended questioning twice but had nothing and he was innocent.

noddyholder Sat 06-Oct-12 08:56:42

I thought anyone could be arrested on reasonable suspicion but need hard evidence to charge?

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 09:39:22

noddy, a couple of posters have said that once he's charged they can't question him any more, & they need to find out where she is. the appeals to the public re his movements after she disappeared are also all about finding her body

scaevola Sat 06-Oct-12 09:57:59

For the magistrates to have authorised the extension of his detention, the Bench has to be satisfied that there is the makings if a case against him (and the nature and strength if that has obviously not been released) and that there is a realistic prospect of securing more relevant evidence in the extra time. That might be further forensic results as well as information from sightings (they had over 2500 calls from the public to process).

If he is to be charged, we'll probably know by mid-afternoon (or if released, he'll be quietly out before the deadline so he move to somewhere where he will not be in immediate danger).

Appeals for sightings may assist the search. It's also important to any future case, for if he is claiming he was doing something unconnected to April's disappearance, he will not have to opportunity later to state that his version of events was not adequately investigated.

RubixCube Sat 06-Oct-12 15:41:51

His been charged.Scum evil evil scum

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 15:46:23

they're charging him with perverting the cause of justice too

because he won't tell them, presumably

Tiredmumno1 Sat 06-Oct-12 15:46:36

Charged with abduction, murder and perverting the course of justice.

RubixCube Sat 06-Oct-12 15:56:28

Why.Why would someone murder a defenceless child.Poor little girl she must have been so frightened.I feel so sad for her family

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 15:56:41

I don't think it's as clear as some people think. IF the police had convincing evidence they would have charged him a looong time ago.

4 days later and it's a last minute effort.

Feenie Sat 06-Oct-12 15:58:02

I imagine that more forensic evidence becomes available over time. sad

janey68 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:01:16

Its very strange- they would have charged him at any point up to now if they had enough evidence. So it's odd that it's so late in the day. Clearly they must have sufficient evidence to bring charges, but I pray to god they have the right person, otherwise someone is still out there who did this

ChristineDaae Sat 06-Oct-12 16:04:23

Oh my! What horrible news. I really hope they find her soon, although since he's been charged i guess the police are pretty sure she wont be found alive. Heartbroken for her poor family and friends.

Tiredmumno1 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:05:34

If they had already charged him, then they wouldn't have been able to interview him anymore. I think they have been hanging it out to try and get him to say where she is, he has probably lied over and over as to the whereabouts of her body sad that would maybe why he has been charged with perverting the course of justice, because he won't be honest angry

Her poor family, and most of all little April, who didn't deserve to have her life taken by an evil monster.

wannaBe Sat 06-Oct-12 16:07:04

it is extremely difficult to secure a conviction without a body.

perverting the course of justice sounds more like trying to bring enough charges to make a conviction stick - most murderers don't disclose the whereabouts of their victims and yet perverting the course of justice isn't a common charge that goes alongside murder.

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 16:09:20

Most murderers don't have a choice about saying where the body is - it's usually in the house, on the street etc.

missymoomoomee Sat 06-Oct-12 16:09:54

Words can't express how awful this must be for the people who love April, my heart goes out to them all. I shall light another candle for April tonight sad

Fobwatch Sat 06-Oct-12 16:11:59


I don't think so. Once they charge him, the questioning has to stop. By law. So they may have stacks of forensic evidence which convinced them he did it, but they wanted / needed to keep questioning him in the hope of getting onfo on her body.

They may well have found her bloodied clothes in his car...but they did not charge because they wanted the max time to question him.

janey68 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:12:43

If the police had had sufficient evidence to bring a murder charge earlier, no way would they have strung it out just for the sake of being able to interview him for longer. They would bring the charge as soon as they had the evidence- for the sake of the victims family apart from anything else

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 16:14:36

yes, I know all of that Fob. But also the 11th hour charge is a reason to undermine the confidence in the belief they have the right person and enough evidence.

Tiredmumno1 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:15:00

Not necessarily janey

Tiredmumno1 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:16:54

The cps have said with the evidence that has been put before him he has advised them to charge him, they could have also been waiting for forensic results to come back.

Fobwatch Sat 06-Oct-12 16:17:11


'for the sake of his victim's family'??
They need some sort of closure. Without a body, there's a lifetime of hope and uncertainty ahead of them. Like the McCanns.

The police will do whatever they can to retrieve the body for this readon AND because there's a better chance of conviction with a body.

OneHandWavingFree Sat 06-Oct-12 16:17:13

He's been charged.

wannaBe Sat 06-Oct-12 16:18:44

if there was sufficient evidence to bring a charge they wouldn't have been able to continue questioning him on extention after extention after extention.

It's worth bearing in mind that they could have brought charges for abduction and then re-arrested for murder thus still being able to question him as it was a different charge iyswim.

Disenchanted4 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:18:48

I saw it as them wanting to question him for as long as possible.

As he has been charged with perverting the course of justice it seems likely he has been providing them with false info. maybe that she was alive? Or that she was in a certain area when she is infact somewhere completly different.

AnAirOfHalloween Sat 06-Oct-12 16:19:47

Seems like they dont have enough on him and no body.

Hope they have the right person but somehow im not so sure! It feels like he is the odd person in the village and the police just want to find something that points to him with asking public about his whereabouts and communication ad then the charges and holding him for so long.

If they have the wrong man she might still be alive and out there somewhere.

Disenchanted4 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:20:21

I just hope if he did it he is brought to justice with a proper sentance and that April is found so her family can at least find some peace in that.

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 16:21:06

wannabe - the thing about re-arresting him wouldn't have re-started the clock. It's the same enquiry so the clock still moves on toward 96 hours.

wannaBe Sat 06-Oct-12 16:29:03

"If they have the wrong man she might still be alive and out there somewhere." There has to be extremely compelling evidence to bring murder charges if you don't have a body. the cps wouldn't allow charges to be brought if there wasn't sufficient evidence that a body exists as the likelyhood of a successful conviction is low anyway without a body...

That doesn't mean that this man is the guilty party - he is still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but tbh as soon as this child disappeared the likelyhood of her ever being found alive was extremely tiny anyway..

janey68 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:31:04

If there had been evidence to bring a murder charge on Tuesday, he would have been charged then. Clearly there wasn't. The police clearly had to meet the criteria to apply for extensions, but equally clearly they didn't have sufficient evidence to charge him. The police can't just decide that even through evidence sufficient for a murder charge exists, they'll wait a few days and apply for an extension!!

In the light of it all, I am pretty sure it was only when the arrest on suspicion of murder happened that the police were sure they were looking for a body. Up to then I really believe they thought there was a chance she had been taken but was still alive.

There is something very odd about it all.

Boboli Sat 06-Oct-12 16:32:53

From what I understand, I'm not sure he was the odd person in the village, that's the chilling thing for me. Some reports have said that April played with his children and he took her to the beach on a trip with them not very long ago. She was in and out of his children's house on the estate and in his car on a ride around the estate with his daughter a couple of days ago. All seemingly innocent.

As someone said earlier on in this thread, unfortunately I think this will make a lot of parents think carefully about the adults our children are left alone with.

My heart goes out to April's family.

NanaNina Sat 06-Oct-12 16:36:00

The CPS have made the decision to charge him and they only do that if there is sufficient evidence for a conviction. I don't know what "perverting the course of justice" means in this case, and I don't think anyone else does, so I'm not sure speculation is helpful.

I assume he is going to plead not guilty and that is why he won't say where the child's body is, as that is tantamount to admitting guilt. He may during the lengthy period of time that he is remanded in custody, change his mind onthat and "go guilty" as they say in court, in which case there would be a possibility that he may say where the body is.

It is unbearable for any of us to think what April went through and the state her parents and close relatives must be in.

wannaBe Sat 06-Oct-12 16:38:24

yes exactly. When applying for extentions the police have to justify why charges cannot yet be brought. and more time to question the suspect so he might reveal where the body is is not one of them.

BoyMeetsWorld Sat 06-Oct-12 16:42:27

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wannaBe Sat 06-Oct-12 16:42:30

the perverting the course of justice charge is strange, and I agree it's impossible to speculate on that.

There is of course a chance the body will be found in the meantime, probably by a dogwalker or similar...

wannaBe Sat 06-Oct-12 16:45:03

no doubt it will all come out in the trial.

BigFatLegsInWoolyTIghts Sat 06-Oct-12 16:45:26

Isn't it enough to say it's perverting the course if he doesn't reveal where she is??

sad I hope the family have answers soon.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 17:00:06

We MUST be careful what we say now but I'm not sure where the boundaries lie, as to what is acceptable and what is not.

Perhaps we ought not to discuss it at all? I don't know - perhaps MNHQ could post to set out what's allowed and what isn't.

janey68 Sat 06-Oct-12 17:01:49

Perverting the course of justice could mean loads of things, from disposing of evidence to obstructing in other ways

I don't for a moment think though, as some people seem to believe, that the police had sufficient evidence for a murder charge several days ago but continued to allow volunteers to search for the girl. No way. I think it has genuinely taken this long for the CPS to agree there is sufficient evidence to bring the charge .

It is a really strange case. I also think the forensic side must be incredibly complex since the suspect was known to the girl and there would presumably be forensic evidence of her in his vehicle/house for quite legitimate reasons.

GhouliaYelps Sat 06-Oct-12 17:08:40

This is such a strange , strange case sad

BigFatLegsInWoolyTIghts Sat 06-Oct-12 17:09:01

I agree Janey. And you are right...it IS a really strange case. They allowed volunteers to look for so long...I think they thought she was alive or there was a chance of that for quite some time. sad

sunnyday123 Sat 06-Oct-12 17:13:40

They've obviously suspected murder for a few days and been waiting for the forensics before charging. My friend works as a forensic officer and it takes days for small dna/blood/fluid samples to multiply to become useful. They must have something on him or they could have just charged him with abduction which still would hav prevented his release. To charge him with murder suggests they clearly have evidence.

I must have missed something if people doubt his involvement - I've followed this loads and my understanding is that the child with April recognised mark bridge as the police were specifically looking for him on the Tuesday? there was a delay because of the witnesses age etc during questioning.

Lougle Sat 06-Oct-12 17:14:15

I think it's really important that we remember there are 10 children victims of this incident here. April, her two siblings, the girl she was playing with and the 6 children of the charged man. Whatever is said now will be available for 9 of them to read in months and years to come.

I can't imagine letting my child out to play with a friend, then being catapulted into a media frenzy and murder investigation. I hope that time will bring justice.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 17:14:28

I just hope, I really hope, that they are able to find her. With virtually no hope of her being Ok, at least may the family have some closure somehow.

sunnyday123 Sat 06-Oct-12 17:14:50

They may hav hoped she was alive but forensics (which again take time o process) may have suddenly shown something?

grovel Sat 06-Oct-12 18:11:39

Lougle, you're right of course but arguably there are millions of lesser victims too - the children who will have their freedom curtailed by frightened parents.

Changebagsandgladrags Sat 06-Oct-12 18:12:19

To reiterate what Lougle said on what we write now could be read later.

My cousin was murdered a few years ago (she was an adult at the time, not a child). I do go back and read the old news reports and the things people said on various forums.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 06-Oct-12 18:14:06


Just a general warning from us that, now Mark Bridger has been formally charged with abduction and murder, we will have to delete any posts that speculate on his guilt or innocence, or which speculate on any of the evidence that form part of the eventual trial.

We do understand that people would like to keep discussing this case and we have no wish to stop you but we're sure you wouldn't want to post anything that could prejudice a fair trial.

We'd also like to remind you that a small girl is missing, presumed abducted and murdered, and her family are undoubtedly going through all sorts of torment. We haven't had any reports of speculative/blame-apportioning comments about the family but, obviously, we'd also remove any that came to our attention. We're sure you'd all understand that.

I wish we could GPS tag or microchip all our kids until they're 18


I hope April is found alive, i really do

It makes you hold your kids to you tighter.. and yes, grovel is right.. this will impact on people in other ways and there will be a lot of kids that aren't allowed to play out not because you can't 100% supervise them 100% of the time sad

BigFatLegsInWoolyTIghts Sat 06-Oct-12 18:31:59

GPS tagging is a terrible idea. Next thing we'd be able to bloody make them walk in certain directions when we wanted!!

scottishmummy Sat 06-Oct-12 18:33:17

yes it does make me hug and hold grateful they're safe
and it's desperately sad for parents of runaways or missing children
i hope April family are well supported in this trauma

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 18:39:21

Thankyou Helen, for clarifying what we should say and not say.

That does help.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 18:39:38

Changebags I am sorry for what you have been through x

GPS tag our children. Yes cause that would be a really rational sensible thing to do hmm

It does indeed scottishmummy
I hope April's family are supported through this awful time and my heart goes out to them.A nightmare no parent should have to suffersad

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 18:45:08

No need to be snarky. I think sometimes it might be a really good idea to have a way to trace children when they disappear.

Like with pets. No one has a cat that they make walk round in circles by remote control and laugh at.

It's just useful if they get lost sad

Please let's not fight each other.

I think gps is a good idea, what exactly is bad about it?
It can only be a good thing and maybe save a childs life in the future.

janey68 Sat 06-Oct-12 18:59:40

Its terrible but progressing degrees of freedom is a natural part of raising emotionally healthy . I for one shudder at the thought of satellite tracking.

But if it stops tragedies like this happening its worth a lot more than 'emotional' freedom!

BigFatLegsInWoolyTIghts Sat 06-Oct-12 19:04:01

No Pumpkin. It's open to far too many abuses.

BigFatLegsInWoolyTIghts Sat 06-Oct-12 19:04:51

Children are not pets.

I give up.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 19:07:11

Well maybe it is something that could be explored within certain parameters and careful guidelines.

I don't see it being a long time before it is seriously considered for some purposes with humans...they do it with prisoners, yes, but then you have people who cannot look after themselves - with alzheimers disease for example - who are likely to wander, and need to be found quickly.

And small children being lost in a big area like at the Olympics, or a shopping centre - it would be brilliant to know you could find them again quickly.

I hadn't even thought about it till this thread but I quite like the idea of it.

Do you really think it would either
a. prevent abductions
b. prevent children from being murdered?
Firstly this sort of crime is exceptionally rare and if a criminal know the child is "tagged" they would only kill and dispose of a body even quicker.

I hope I never live in a country that would even contemplate "tagging" it's citizens, young or old.

scottishmummy Sat 06-Oct-12 19:09:00

tagging isn't viable option.it's knee jerk reaction to tragedy

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 19:09:35

I'm not talking about the government tagging anyone. Just families could perhaps do it.

People wouldn't know if a child was tagged. Though I take your point that it might increase the risk of someone being killed instead of just taken.

I haven't thought it through at all.

BigFatLegsInWoolyTIghts Sat 06-Oct-12 19:10:36

Ed yes...and then once it's the norm...the government will be tagging anyone who isn't conforming.

hobnob You do make a very good point, obviously an idea that will never materialize due to those reasons.
I never thought about it like that

missymoomoomee Sat 06-Oct-12 19:14:20

I have gps tagged my 2 oldest, well their phones, I can go online and see exactly where they at any time and set a loud alarm to go off on their phones from my computer. I have 2 of those Mummy I'm here bears for my youngest girls in case they wander off in a shop I press a button and a loud alarm goes off from a little teddy bear attached to their shoes and it automatically goes off if they are a certain distance (I think its about 150 feet).

My kids don't know I have put those apps on their phones and the girls just know they put little teddy bears onto their shoes when we are going out.

I would not be in favour of some sort of national tagging system.

Despite the efforts I have made to keep track of my children I know that if someone wanted to take one of them then in reality there isn't an awful lot I could do other than keep them under lock and key.

Being able to track where they are realistically isn't going to stop anything bad from happening to them.

wannaBe Sat 06-Oct-12 19:20:00

my bil is a police officer and a friend of his was involved in a high profile murder investigation some years ago where a man was convicted of the murder of his wife without a body (I can't remember her name now). My sister was asking him how they could be sure as there was no body, and he said that there is evidence that just means you know that a death has occurred.

Even if this man isn't guilty of April's murder, there is no way the police would make this a murder investigation if they weren't absolutely sure she was dead.

There have been other high profile disappearances over the years, and although in some cases the likelyhood is that the child was murdered, all avenues of enquiry have still been left open, even where cases have been closed iyswim.

janey68 Sat 06-Oct-12 19:22:02

Tagging would only increase a false sense of security ' oh it's fine, she's at a friends house/ at uncle jimmys/ playing outside. Statistics show that abuse and murder is most likely to be inflicted by a known person

The only possible useful purpose of tracking would be for situations described above where your child wanders off in a busy place... Hmm, again, I would rather keep hold of my childrens hands tbh. I don't think it's helpful to have some kind of system they aren't even aware of. It might also lead the parent into being less safety conscious in those situations too... Thinking 'oh well if they do run off I'll find them'.
Not my parenting ideal tbh

oh and at what age would the tag be removed/deactivated?

missymoomoomee Sat 06-Oct-12 19:23:37

I may well know the case you are talking about wannaBe, was it in Scotland by any chance?

missymoomoomee Sat 06-Oct-12 19:28:50

jaynee I have thankfully never had to use them, and I certainly don't use them instead of keeping an eye on my children. Its there just in case, things do happen sometimes no matter how vigilant you are.

Well gps tagging would help to locate a body wouldn't it so maybe one that could be turned on and off in emergencies.

Its only the same as giving birth to a child so it can provide genetic material to save an older sibling or the like.

If it was available, i would use it. My dogs are microchipped, if it meant i could find my child dead or alive i would use it.
It would help the police, search and rescue teams, find a child quickly if it went missing however so, no scrambling of police helicopters.

It was just an idea not so much a serious one and of course it would be open to abuse, what isn't. But if only the parent or guardian held the ability to switch it on?.... And it would be removed at a certain age.. the more i think about it the more i would be tempted to use it.

There's nothing worse i could think of than the loss of a child then the added inability to find their body so i could lay them to rest.

And what if the child's body was buried. You would still be able to find them.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 19:36:24

Yes - and to be able to track their whereabouts hopefully before it even got to that stage.

It's a fantasy - and a reaction to what has happened, of course it is but still. I do see a day when this becomes a legitimate possibility.

Like I said I never want to live in a country that wouls tag any of it's citizens.

Disenchanted4 Sat 06-Oct-12 19:38:07

I would use GPS sad

Until i had children i wouldn't have wanted to be in a society where any of its citizens were tagged, either.
Unless they had been tagged as punishment for being a criminal.

I would be happy to do it to keep my children safe.

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 20:06:23


Well, pets get tagged because we 'own' them. They are property, like cars and jewels. We don't 'own' other people, i.e. our children - ownership of other people was the basis of slavery. We are responsible for our children, but they are not our property?

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:08:24

No, I think pets are tagged generally because we feel responsible for them, and we love them and want them to be kept safe.

Well some people might do it for financial reasons etc but that wouldn't apply to kids anyway.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:09:48

and I cannot imagine any parent tagging their child purely in a quest for ownership - if that's the premise then there's a lot more to worry about than a microchip and hopefully social services would be involved.

SoMuchToBits Sat 06-Oct-12 20:10:31

I do know someone whose MIL is GPS tagged. She has Alzheimers and often goes off wandering. The GPS is attached to her walking frame, as she can't go far without it. It does help find out where she is if she wanders off.

mellen Sat 06-Oct-12 20:11:42

Pets aren't GPS tagged though - a microchip doesn't help you find them, only to identify them if they are found.
If someone is willing to kill a child, I don't think they would baulk at removing a GPS tag once they had abducted them.

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 20:12:37

but where on earth is the tagging bit coming from anyway?? It' s a freaky idea, and wouldn't help in this case any way.

The numbers of child abductors hasn't changed at all, per year, since records began, about 50 per year since 1950.

The point that many people here are missing is that most children who are murdered/raped/abused/kidnapped are not attacked by strangers, but by their own families or people known to them. The dangers children face from strangers are miniscule. Therefore, tagging them is utterly ridiculous. No wonder children are growing up with no sense of responsibility or ability to assess risks for themselves.

Portofino Sat 06-Oct-12 20:18:59

Agree with Boris. The risk of your child being abducted by a stranger is tiny. I spoke to my dd about this last night. She said that she KNOWS she should never go off with a stranger. I have reiterated that she should never go anywhere with anyone without telling mum, dad or teacher etc - no matter what they say.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:19:15

'No wonder children are growing up with no sense of responsibility or ability to assess risks for themselves.' Where is this coming from?

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:20:15

Porto, in this case he wasn't a stranger but hypothetically if there had been some kind of tracking available it might have altered the outcome markedly.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:20:37

and I hope it isn't really distasteful to say that. I'm sorry.

Growlithe Sat 06-Oct-12 20:22:11

Oh behave about tagging your children. If you are not raising an independent person, what's the point in having a child? When do you deactivate the tag? Does the child have a choice? Silly kneejerk talk.

Portofino Sat 06-Oct-12 20:22:22

Or it might not. We don't know that. We can't chip all our children on the basis of this.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:23:14

When do they really become independant though? At five, seven, nine?

Imo it happens gradually. A missing three year old in a supermarket can hardly be expected to fend for itself.

Portofino Sat 06-Oct-12 20:23:42

And at this moment in time WE have no clue as to what has happened here.

Growlithe Sat 06-Oct-12 20:32:31

Get. A. Grip.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:33:17


Well if a private company brings it out, i would be tempted to have my child done.

The other argument would be to actually do something to put these people off, if caught, PROPER punishment.. castration or having a hand cut off. Or are the bleeding hearts going to say they wouldn't want to live in a society that does that either.

Problem is, they would then go all out to not get caught. Bodies would be well disposed of/hidden in order to prevent vital evidence being found.

Its not a kneejerk reaction at all, i've lived through jamie bulger ect and have always thought the same. Phones could be thrown out of a car window, GPS bracelets ripped off and ditched.

I've said all i'm going to say in it really. Its just an idea.

I hope if nothing else they find her so her parents can grieve and have closure. That's my wish.

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 20:37:27

Things, not 'bleeding hearts' people. Just sane ones.

and thanks for indicating you've said all you are going to say.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:39:13

Cutting off people's hands is fairly extreme. I was with you on the GPS but here is where I duck out.

Growlithe Sat 06-Oct-12 20:39:38

Even a three year old can be taught not to go off with a stranger in a supermarket. If not they can be sat in the trolley. They don't need 'chipping' because, unlike pets, they mostly just do not have the instinct to wander far from their parents.

Most kids in danger are very sadly in danger around those they know and trust. Chipping isn't going to help that.

SeveredEdMcDunnough Sat 06-Oct-12 20:42:45

I know. But maybe I have had different three year olds to you. Mine had a very strong urge to wander off from me.

It would just be nice to be able to find them quickly if they did - even in circumstances that are very normal, don't involve strangers, etc - just getting lost in a crowded street for example.

Well true i would expect most people to duck out on that one. What do you do to put them off, then?
How do we stop them?

Portofino Sat 06-Oct-12 20:43:17

Things, this case is very, very sad - but these things happen so infrequently that it is near impossible to protect against it. We are best served putting our energy into educating our kids to have self respect, to respect others etc. The people who perpetrate these sort of crimes are not worrying about the justice system.

You are right, of course.
Think the events of the past few days have twisted my melon sad

Portofino Sat 06-Oct-12 20:53:53

And others love a drama - I saw on FB that someone had started a page called RIP April. Family members asked her to remove it - and she/he fucking hasn't and is calling it "respectful" Atrocious!

Growlithe Sat 06-Oct-12 20:55:49

There is always talk like this after an extreme case.

Ben Needham, Jamie Bulger, Madeline McCann, and now April Jones.

But also Baby Peter, Victoria Climbié and many more.

All at the hands of extreme evil. Home and away. The likes of which we could never legislate for, because we could never define it, because it is beyond comprehension.

Chipping would never work, because the goal posts are constantly being redefined. The minute you are complacent, something else would happen.

I know .. thinking about it rationally now really. There are plus points, but as you say, and i should know, the most risk is from close friends and family.
Just been a frightening few days hasn't it. Sorry ..

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 21:04:21

Pan, where did you get this from?

'The numbers of child abductors hasn't changed at all, per year, since records began, about 50 per year since 1950'

Tell me about the stuff on FB too, my SDsis posted saying Aprils body had been found.
I can't imagine how her parents are feeling, not one bit, because i felt sick when i read that until i found nothing on the news or on here

VivaLeBeaver Sat 06-Oct-12 21:08:18

Ponders, the thing about there been no more child abductions than 50 years ago is certainly something I was taught on my criminology degree. People think the figures are higher now but this is because such cases are now reported so widely and for so long in a way they didn't used to be.

BigFatLegsInWoolyTIghts Sat 06-Oct-12 21:09:35

Wider reporting would not change figures.

VivaLeBeaver Sat 06-Oct-12 21:11:18

No, it doesn't change the figures. The figures stay the same but people's perception of incidents increases.

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 21:14:32

Beaver, this says 532 cases in 2011/12 in England & Wales, down from an historic high of '1,035 in 2004/05'.

So what is the definition of abduction used for the '50 per year' quoted by Pan? That Guardian piece does say that for 2004

'9% (72) of all reports were successful child abductions by a stranger'

is that the basis?

VivaLeBeaver Sat 06-Oct-12 21:17:34

Yes, the average of 50 per year (I've seen it quoted as high as 70) is stranger abduction.

Remember the majority of those stranger abductions don't end as badly as it looks like this one will do.

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 21:24:08

no sad

in some ways I'm surprised that it's as high as an average of 50 for stranger abductions - probably because most don't end in this kind of tragedy

(& of course this one isn't a "stranger"...)

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 21:27:30

Ponders - the figure for child abduction being pretty consistent? From training events in safeguarding over the years - always comes up and the figure is often referred to. More sophisticated media in the last few years may make it seem more prevalent but the stats do not support it.

VivaLeBeaver Sat 06-Oct-12 21:31:24

No, if they all ended like this there would be a story like this in the papers every week.

I admit I have a memory like a goldfish but there aren't that many in recent times I can remember, the soham girls, Sarah Payne. Madeleine McCann probably wouldn't count as not in the uk. Jamie bulger. They're the recent ones I can remember off the top of my head.

I can remember similar numbers of cases from when I was a kid in the 80s. I can't remember names as I was young but I do remember eating tea and watching the news and hearing stories. There was a girl who was sent to the corner shop for bread and never came back, a girl who was taken from a tent in her back garden, a papergirl where her bike was found in the lane with the wheel still spinning but no sign of her.

These things did happen when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, my dh is older than me and remembers the kids going missing who turned out to have been taken by Ian Brady and Myra Hyndley.

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 21:34:20

it's tricky, and mainly, I think, to do with definition and who did the abductions. Parents have a big part of that, but the really tragic circs around April are very small. 'non-parent' abduction leading to death is v small.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

was not with

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 21:38:04

Things you are breaking Helen's warning re guilt.

There is no evidence he was a risk to children.

Eh how am i breaking what warning?

In a neighbouring borough, 2 little ones were abducted last year

It appears they must have known ( in the local case to me ) that there was a man in the area who was a danger to kids, going almost straight there shows that.

VivaLeBeaver Sat 06-Oct-12 21:52:05

I think Things was talking about her local case not the April Jones one when she talked about the police having previous suspicions and going straight there.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Portofino Sat 06-Oct-12 21:54:26

Things - well I hope you reported said man to the appropriate authoritties.

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 21:54:38

Things, see Helenmumsnet's post at 1814

supposedly April's mum steered the police towards him almost immediately, but surely if they were worried about him they wouldn't have let her go out with him before?

it seems more likely that that other kids locally knew whose car April had gone in that evening & would have said "it was Erin's dad's car" or something

if he had form April's parents wouldn't have let her go out with him in the summer, even with his own kids

I just don't understand this sad

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 21:55:26

oh sorry, Things - I misread your post

AlionalovesPan Sat 06-Oct-12 21:57:31

no, not a social worker, nor 'stalking' you at all. Sorry.

Porto he has been reported and is being monitored, they can't touch him until he's caught in the act. Till then he 'has every right' to be walking round by the school. We have a parents group liasing with the council, school, social services and police, and other agencies x

I have seen helenmumsnet's post and am certainly not breaking it smile

Alion, no, i apologise, there was no need for me to be so rotten. Sorry.

Ponders, no one understands anyone harming a little one. sad ((hugs))

VivaLeBeaver Sat 06-Oct-12 22:00:53

The police might also have asked Aprils parents if they knew anyone with a left hand drive vehicle as the witness suggested it was a left hand drive. This may have been the reason the suspects name was put forward.

perceptionreality Sat 06-Oct-12 22:01:40

oh god - I cannot believe people are talking about micro-chipping and chopping the hands off murderers.

What happened to that little girl was the result of some kind of horrific evil and I sure as hell don't want the decent among us to buy into it by stooping to the level of child killers and resorting to medieval punishment methods - we are above that!

And as for micro-chipping, get a grip indeed. People were up in arms about ID cards and civil liberties. When something awful happens the last thing anyone needs is everyone else to abandon rational and reasonable thought.

Thats what i assume viva.. or the vehicle type.
The first report i heard was about april getting into the drivers' side and i said to DP it was strange and maybe it was a LH drive..

Tiredmumno1 Sat 06-Oct-12 22:05:37

I did ask Helen to pop on and have a chat with us, so we know what we can and can't say, so thank you Helen for taking the time to do that.

I know emotions have been running pretty high this week, because of this awful tragedy. It is going to affect each and every one of us differently being parents, this is obviously our worst nightmares.

Aprils parents are living in utter hell at the moment, I just hope in my heart they find April soon, to bring a little peace to this family.

It wasn't other people, it was me.. that was further up the thread .. moved on now lol

perceptionreality Sat 06-Oct-12 22:10:45

Viva - I heard that April's mum told the police who she suspected had taken April the night she reported her missing.

Tired its not just this, its the JS stuff too.. horrid goings on. Makes you worried for your kids.

Tiredmumno1 Sat 06-Oct-12 22:19:30

I know things, it seems to be one thing after the other at the moment, it really makes you wonder what kind of world we really live in sometimes, it's all so heartbreaking sad

difficultpickle Sat 06-Oct-12 22:36:17

I think the hardest thing for me in this case is how to explain it to ds (8). He saw it on the news earlier in the week and followed it on the nights this week when he was boarding (I'm not sure how but he knew what the current status was when I collected him last night). At the beginning of the week we had a review of stranger danger but today we had a discussion about people we know (not specific people).

How on earth do you lay down the rules of what your dcs can and can't do when possibly they could come to harm at the hands of someone you would trust?

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 22:40:17

bisjo, my kids are grown up now, but from what I remember trying to instil into them when they were younger, & from what others have said this week, you need to steer away fron the "stranger" thing & just make them realise that they must check with you before they go anywhere with anybody - whatever anyone might say to them to try to get them into a car or whatever

difficultpickle Sat 06-Oct-12 22:42:51

That's the issue though, isn't it? If ds said he was going to go for drive around the block with someone I knew I'd probably say yes, never thinking that that could be the last time I saw him.

VivaLeBeaver Sat 06-Oct-12 22:44:53

Perception - yes I heard that too, but my point is that maybe they named him after the police said they were looking for someone with a left hand drive car.

Ponders Sat 06-Oct-12 22:45:43

well, that's true


if April had said "I'll just go and tell my mum where I'm going first", who knows...?

poor little love sad

difficultpickle Sat 06-Oct-12 22:49:52

True Ponders.

I just pray they find her soon.

perceptionreality Sat 06-Oct-12 23:00:19

That's exactly the problem isn't it bisjo? I was thinking about how I let my dd go on sleepovers and assume her friend's parents can be trusted. But I don't know them really really well. It's the same with many people.

But I suppose if we stopped trusting everyone, our children would never become independent and would never be able to live their lives.

Toothiepeg Sat 06-Oct-12 23:10:22

I keep wondering where she might be. I think the water has to be the most likely place and she's so small. My dd is a tallish thin 5 yr old. She really doesn't take up much space at all. This case is haunting me a bit. Her poor mum - will never hold her again. It's unbearable.

difficultpickle Sat 06-Oct-12 23:14:43

perception I completely agree. It is relatively easy to install a stranger danger understanding into fairly young children. Ds grasped this concept by the time he was 5. However working out whether you can trust people you know is something a lot of adults get wrong so young children really don't have a chance.

I suppose you have to hope and pray that the wider circle of people you share your lives and the lives of your dcs are inherently good.

I remember many years ago a colleague I worked closely with killed his dw and himself in particularly horrible ways. I had spent a lot of time with him immediately prior to his death and I had absolutely no clue what he was planning (it involved lost of detailed planning) or that he would be capable of doing such a thing.

difficultpickle Sat 06-Oct-12 23:14:59

lots not lost.

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Oct-12 00:18:11

He's been charged now, and until the trial I would imagine anything we say will be subjudice (sp?).
Personally, i believe the police, this time, know what they know, and any speculation on Mn now will be deleted, and rightly so.
In the statements by the police and the CPS today, they have told the press to take a step back.
I hope they do as the trial could be prejudiced.
Therefore this will be my last post on this.
But, fuck, April's little face will stay in my mind until, and even after she is found sad

RubixCube Sun 07-Oct-12 09:25:51

Yep i said this to people on on my networks commenting service about why their post was being deleted as they were moaning and i got thumbed down.They obviously don't know alot about how what they say can affect the trial

Houseworkprocrastinator Sun 07-Oct-12 16:50:57

The figure for child abduction in the uk is an impossible one to find out. Stranger abduction and parental abduction is all lumped in together also these figures include attempted abduction that was not successful and a 'child' can be anyone up to the age of 18. I did a bit of research into this when I was doing criminology and the best report I could find 'estimated' it was roughly 11 per year successful stranger abductions but even that did not say what age.
This was a couple of years ago so there maybe more information now but I was surprised by the lack of statistics on this subject seeing as it is something that all parents worry about.

NanaNina Sun 07-Oct-12 17:04:33

Glad we've passed the tagging or not tagging etc. I can't remember who now but someone mentioned that there are 10 children involved, April, the child who was with her, April's sibs and 6 children in the Bridgers family. I thought there were only 2 children in the Bridgers family but regardless of how many they are all going to hugely affected. Presumably the Bridges family are going to have to move well out of the area and the children move schools etc. I know this is of secondary importance to April's disappearance, but it is just something I have been thinking about.

It does appear that April knew the man whose car she got into last Monday night. Someone has said that April was in and out of the Bridges house and recently went to the beach in the car with 2 of his children. I haven't seen that and I am wondering if some of the red tops are adding bits to this story I don't know. IF she did, then of course her DNA would legitimately be in the car and their house. However more forensic evidence has clearly been found.

I think the other thing is that none of us can even begin to understand the mind of a man who (*not*) necessarily the man who has been charged as he is innocent until proven guilty, abducts a child and kills her. It is way way beyond our understanding, and after a 30 year career in Children's Services LA I have seen some pretty awful treatment of children, but this can almost always be traced back to the fact that the parents have been ill treated as children, they have learning difficulties, mental health problems etc. In fact I have never met a child abuser who is just evil; there is always a reason.

There have been cases of children dying at the hands of their parents (Heidi Kaseeda in Birmingham) and before her Victoria Climbie and others I can't recall. These cases are truly awful but the parents (or aunt in VC's case) I think really do believe that the child has an evil spirit within her and there are church people who confirm this, and encourage the abuse to get rid of the evil spirits.

There have been quite a few cases in the media lately of fathers who are estranged from mothers, killing their children and themself usually. Awful as this is, the motive is fairly clear - he wants to hurt his ex W or P as much as she is hurting him and he knows what will hurt her most. Even paedophiles who are of course predatory and want sex with children - that is awful too, but I wonder why they have to kill the victim too. I can only imagine that this gives them some sort of "kick" - is it a control thing, god only knows.

Sorry about the long post, I am just thinking aloud!

margerykemp Sun 07-Oct-12 18:20:22

Suzanne Pilley's murderer was convicted without a body.

AlionalovesPan Sun 07-Oct-12 22:14:58

There is something here as well that prob. needs mentioning.

That is the extraordinary efforts of 'ordinary' people in putting their own concerns aside, and have been getting on with the search effort in horrible conditions, the logistics involved, the discipline required, the supply of food and drink from members of the public to keep the staffs involved able to 'keep going'. Getting wet and cold in a 'hostile environment' can sap energies. Esp. if the outcome is v possibly a grim one.

So a really big thanks to those individuals and organisations who have, and are doing, so much to work us toward a conclusion.

Tryingtothinkofnewsnazzyname Sun 07-Oct-12 22:20:53

Yes, definitely thanks to the search teams. I read the other day that the mountain rescue folks don't get paid for this and don't get expenses either. There was mention of a fund being set up earlier in the week. Perhaps one use of some of any money donated could be to these people who are giving their time and expertise, knowingly losing their own wages by doing so, so that their own families don't lose out too much. I am sure they don't expect any reward for doing it, but it does seem hard on them to actually lose out by helping in the search.

AlionalovesPan Sun 07-Oct-12 22:24:07

yes the mountain rescue people are invaluable. I live in the Peak District and am aware of the call outs they get. The rest of this effort, it seems, are just local people with an investment in the community and by dint of that in April's family.

AlionalovesPan Sun 07-Oct-12 22:27:07

Of course police teams and other public servants eg local authority are crucial and so admirable at times like this.

NimpyWindowMash Sun 07-Oct-12 22:28:37

I can't believe the mountain rescuers are unpaid volunteers. Bless them. What an amazing job they do.

AlionalovesPan Sun 07-Oct-12 22:30:43

yes Nimpy, it's all unpaid. My next door neighbour is a volunteer. If there is a call, off he goes.

Tryingtothinkofnewsnazzyname Sun 07-Oct-12 22:35:40

Bankers playing roulette with everyone's money get millions, mountain rescue teams put their hands in their own pockets. It's all wrong.

Tryingtothinkofnewsnazzyname Sun 07-Oct-12 22:37:46

BBC latest btw says the mountain rescue teams are making way for police again now as the searching is more suited to them. Not reducing resources just 'different phase'. Let's hope they find April. thanks to them all.

edam Sun 07-Oct-12 23:10:42

Mountain rescue are indeed unpaid volunteers. Think the same applies to lifeboat crews as well, IIRC? RNLI, I mean, not the coastguard.

RNLI are definitely unpaid volunteers. Earlier in the week the RNLI crews from Borth and Aberdyfi were assisting in the search. Don't know what the current situation is, but these people are all volunteers, and would normally be called out via a pager on an as and when basis, so will have been putting in extra hours to assist with the search.

sudaname Sun 07-Oct-12 23:17:04

Very interesting post Nana.

You got me thinking too unfortunately.

and speaking of Nanas my darling earnest 7yr old DGD mentioned this in her beautiful little welsh accent on the phone the other night

'Nana Sudaname, you know that little girl who's gone missing ? Well my cousin < insert Welsh name> he goes to the same school as her '

I thought OMG she is following this now and what will go through her little head when (barring a miracle) inevitably there is the dreadful ending even the most optimistic of us now expect.

With this in mind and before l could think of anything diplomatic/damage limiting to say back to her, she said:

'l hope they find her' sad

edam Sun 07-Oct-12 23:19:53

It's a hideous, unspeakably awful situation but there is something very moving about the huge efforts so many people are making. Both skilled and experienced volunteers like mountain rescue and RNLI and just ordinary people like you and I (well, like me, everyone else on this thread may be extraordinary in some way).

Mountain rescue types are very very lovely and brave but also mad as hatters - they actually think it is fun to stay out all night on a freezing hillside in winter for training.

Difference is that RNLI are well funded and have a central, professional fund raising team. There is no central pot for MR teams, each team is entirely self supporting.

DH has been out all week searching - his team is Machynlleth's closest team. They rely on donations and contributions to update kit and equipment (but often buy their own), employers allowing them to have time off work and pay their own fuel and transport expenses.

Tryingtothinkofnewsnazzyname Sun 07-Oct-12 23:26:39

MaggieMcVitie Please tell your DH how much his efforts are appreciated. He's a hero.

Well, the RNLI teams would also rely on their employers agreeing to them having the time off work, but the funding for their equipment etc would have come from the RNLI itself.

The RNLI, coastguard and mountain rescue all seem to have done a fantastic job working together.

That's it exactly Norman. If the RNLI trasha boat they get a new one delivered the next day. If an SAR team trash their Landy, they have to fund raise for a new one....

AlionalovesPan Sun 07-Oct-12 23:29:02

edam - yes they are generally, as mad as hatters, as you say. There's also a sort of frustrated militarism about them. BUT.....in these circs. they come up trumps.
I also just wonder about how well the services could respond if cuts to public provision are enacted, so outside police forces, who have been immense it seems, could not respond in the way they have.

trash a not trasha blush
Trying thanks - it's been an incredible multi team effort.
Edam and Aliona some are, but some (including DH) are quite normal grin

There's a case here for Mountain Rescue being centrally funded (still by charity) as that could really help them to access the equipment they need.

The good thing for RNLI being entirely funded by charitable donations is that they are not accountable to government decisions on funding.

sudaname Sun 07-Oct-12 23:36:28

Yes Edam , the worst of human behaviour always highlights the best too doesnt it.

Reminds me when l lived in Ireland many years ago and a young boy was found murdered on a park and it turned out to be a local youth.
Outside the trial on the steps of the courthouse the father of the victim walked over to the sobbing father of the convicted youth and put his arms around him.

It was the saddest, most heartbreaking, yet most beautiful thing l have ever seen.

When asked about it later he said 'we both lost a son that day'.

sad God l need a drink now.

AlionalovesPan Sun 07-Oct-12 23:41:20

Maggie - you are not being objective.grin. But yes of course, doffed hats to him.

I'd triggered the thanks bit as all of these threads focus on the legalities of April's disappearance.

In work for the past week, this has been the biggest single point of exchange outside of work issues, esp amongst parents.

Aliona grin

edam Sun 07-Oct-12 23:54:43

Maggie, indeed, you must be very proud of your husband.

Weird comment below about frustrated military something... the mountain rescue team I spent a day with once didn't strike me like that at all. They were all people who loved the countryside (it happened to be the Peak District). They thought it was marvellous fun, searching moors and hills all night, in the dark, in the freezing cold, working to a scenario where they'd deliberately been sent to the wrong location twice... and then getting the 'casualty' out by stringing them across some rope across the Ladybower Dam IIRC. And the casualty, who wasn't kept toasty warm with lots of exercise, was the wife of the Peak Park chief ranger - so not only wasn't it her job, it wasn't even her voluntary role - she just did it to show willing!

AlionalovesPan Mon 08-Oct-12 00:00:36

Sounds like a bog standard 'difficult terrain' territorial army exercise to me, edam....

edam Mon 08-Oct-12 16:54:26

The TA may do something like that, still doesn't mean the mountain rescue people are frustrated wanna-be soldiers. That's just a weird thing to say.

Portofino Mon 08-Oct-12 18:39:57

Maggie, do they have a fund raising page or anything? They have done such sterling work over the last week - I would like to make a donation. My heart breaks for April's family and nothing anyone can do or say can take away the pain that they must be in, but it would be nice to help in a practical way.

Oh Porto that's lovely of you thanks

This link should work...


Oops, not sure if it did blush

If not, this should take you to the website, click on the 'Donations' tab at the top. Thank you SO much, all the team really appreciate the support x


Portofino Mon 08-Oct-12 19:26:36

Link works fine - thank you! I have posted the details on FB too saying that maybe this is a good cause if someone wants to do something practical in the search for April.

Thank you!

Everyone has been out tonight and let off pink balloons, lanterns for April. The first one was let off by her Mum and Dad from their garden sad

Hard to believe a week has gone by...

Team will be debriefed on Wednesday, but will remain on standby. They have been overwhelmed by all the messages of support. Feel as if this week has shown us the very worst, but also the very best of human nature.

hellymelly Mon 08-Oct-12 23:13:39

I am going to make a donation to the team. My daughter is the same age as April, this could be the child of any one of us. sad.

Thank you Helly
Everyone's support is SO much appreciated. I'll pass on the Mumsnet support for Wednesday's debrief smile

BoffinMum Tue 09-Oct-12 08:31:56

I feel sorry for the bloke being tried as well as April. Is that bad? He may be guilty or innocent - if he is innocent he is in a terrible situation with the mob baying for him, but if he is guilty and not a complete sociopath (which might be the case) then he is having to face up to having done something truly abhorrent that has outraged the entire community in which he lived, not to mention the rest of the world. So utterly sad, that his actions may have caused such universal heartbreak. I know there are people who will want to 'pitchfork the bastard' but I see it as more complicated ....

Greythorne Tue 09-Oct-12 08:48:31

i think your pity or compassion for him if he is guilty is completely misplaced.

If innocent, of course, he is in a terrible situation of Kafkaesque proportions.

But if guilty, I think you are very sadly misguided.

missymoomoomee Tue 09-Oct-12 08:56:15

You feel sorry for him even if he is guilty because he would have to face up to his actions?

I've heard it all now.

BoffinMum Tue 09-Oct-12 09:52:49

Yes, maybe I am wrong. He is probably crying for himself, not through guilt, like Fritzl did. I assume a lot of people and perhaps I need to be a bit more angry. I just don't get the whole sociopath thing, I suppose, and I am wanting to see the humanity.

<goes to look for pitchfork>

Sue0111 Tue 09-Oct-12 10:09:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BoffinMum Tue 09-Oct-12 10:14:56

But didn't April know her abductor?

I don't think many of these tips would help in this kind of abduction.

Lexilicious Tue 09-Oct-12 10:18:42

Sue0111, as it's your first post, perhaps you might like to be reminded to read more of the thread before posting. That link is a stranger danger and (IMO) over cautious list of ideas. We've discussed at length the difficulty of bringing up confident children who are not mistrustful of everyone around, but have freedoms and the ability to just play. Welcome to mumsnet, though.

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 09-Oct-12 10:36:30

I don't want my children to grow up with a fear of the world and afraid that something might happen to them at any moment. Equally I want to be confident that when they are out playing they know what to be wary of and how to act if certain situations come up.
I think finding a balance between giving them the street smarts without scaring them is really hard.

I watched a program on tv a while back about an over protective mum (she was really extreme) and her poor daughter was afraid of everything.

MrsSalvoMontalbano Tue 09-Oct-12 11:11:53

Boffinmum, for the first time ever, I do agree with you on a thread shock. Of course the whole thing is unutterably awful, and if the suspect is guilty he needs to have the book thrown at him, but as Boffinmum said, unless he is a complete sociopath, (unlikely if he has had a family life and interacted with other families, had friends etc, not the archetypal 'loner') then of course whe would be in a tota unbearable nightmare of hating himself and what he has done, and has to live with that every waking ( and probably non-waking) moment and probably wishes as much as, if not more than, anyone else to turn the clock back. If the suspect is guilty he took no steps to run away or even really cover up the crime. if the suspect is guilty it is likely to have been a moment of sheer utter madness that most of us thankfully will never endure.
People say he has not told the police where the body is - maybe he has - maybe he has told them everything, but the body has been washed away - we have no right to know what he has told the police until it is made public in a trial.

Greythorne Tue 09-Oct-12 11:31:33


One, he has been charged with perverting the course of justice. So, he is not / has not been helping the investigation at all. Quite the reverse. He has been trying to lead the police in false directions. Does not sound like he regrets what he is accused of doing.

Two, who says that sociopaths are loners? Sociopaths can be highly charming and manipulative individuals.

BoffinMum Tue 09-Oct-12 11:41:57

<stares at pitchfork thoughtfully>

DuelingFanjo Tue 09-Oct-12 11:51:16

"One, he has been charged with perverting the course of justice. So, he is not / has not been helping the investigation at all. Quite the reverse. He has been trying to lead the police in false directions. Does not sound like he regrets what he is accused of doing."

but you don't know he is guilty. Perhaps he can't help because he is not guilty, in fact given the complete lack of evidence presented to us people here on this forum then there is at current no reason whatsoever to think he is guilty at all. This is why we have trials and courts, so that this can be ascertained and even though the CPS has allowed him to be charged it STILL doesn't mean he is guilty. Not everyone taken to trial is guilty.

DuelingFanjo Tue 09-Oct-12 11:54:39

Ei incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat; cum per rerum naturam factum negantis probatio nulla sit—"The proof lies upon him who affirms, not upon him who denies; since, by the nature of things, he who denies a fact cannot produce any proof."

sunnyday123 Tue 09-Oct-12 12:11:26

I thought Aprils friend identified him and his car and that's why they were specifically looking for him on the Tuesday and no one else? Last Tuesday when they arrested him they did so at his work address, hey werent looking for anyone else from what I read?

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 09-Oct-12 12:19:50

Greythorn - I think you are thinking of a psycopath. A sociopath often lives on the outskirts of society and be disorganised and react without thinking. They are often seen as odd by other people although can form meaningfull relationships with family etc. A psycopath can be very charming and exist in mainstream society un notices they are methodical and organised and normally act to a plan rather than emotion.

Both lack empathy for others and do not tend to feel remorse.

I have heard it all now shock only on mumsnet...............

NanaNina Tue 09-Oct-12 12:25:52

I posted a while ago on the lines of struggling to understand why men carry out these horrendous crimes but no-one seemed interested, so I'm glad it has been raised again. Iwas thinking that none of us can have the slightest idea of why men do these sort of things, it is totally beyond our comprehension. After 30 years of social work in Children's Services I have seen some pretty ghastly things. Children who have been abused/neglected etc but it is always the case (ime) that the parents were similarily ill treated as children and it's the only way they know of parenting. Sometimes the parents have learning difficulties, mental health problems etc, but i can honesy say I have never met a parent wh has abused their child who is just evil - very often these so called adults are just traumatised children inside.

Sexual abuse is harder to understand but whether we like it or not we have to accept that there is a reason behind it, and it is usually the case that the adult was himself sexually abused as a child, and so the victim becomes the perpetrator. I don't believe any behaviour is motiveless. Maybe it's something about control I don't know. Abduction and murder of any child (not the case in question) is for me impossible to understand. But I do agree with Boffinmum - it is something upon which to ponder.

Greythorne Tue 09-Oct-12 12:26:19


Have you got links for those definitions? I always thought the terns sociopaths and psychopaths were used interchangeably.

Here's some attributes of sociopaths:

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 09-Oct-12 12:50:15

A lot of it was in my criminology course from a few years back but yes that is a bit of a simplistic view and often symptoms of the two over lap but the main difference with the sociopath is the anti social part of it.

failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviours as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honour financial obligations;
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
The individual is at least age 18 years.


Where as a psycopath can live within the normal constraints of society easily. It has actually been found out recently that a lot of corporate CEOs have tendencies of a psycopath and that they do well because of their ruthless attitude to others and also their charm. (not nessasaraly a criminal)

NanaNina Tue 09-Oct-12 12:51:04

Yes I thought they were one and the same thing too. Thanks for the list.

NanaNina Tue 09-Oct-12 12:53:38

Housework thanks for your post too....I will look at your link later.

RubixCube Tue 09-Oct-12 12:57:17

I can't stop imagining her mum,dad brother and sister sitting in her bedroom looking at her bed knowing she will never sleep in it again,it keeps me awake at night.Thats just so torturous for them.I feel so sorry for the Jone's family.I really do.If i feel like this i can't imagine what they are going through.My thoughts are with them

Boboli Tue 09-Oct-12 13:04:43

I'm usually a real sucker for empathising with the most unlikely individuals in a situation but IF this man were found guilty, I just can't identify with anyone feeling sympathy for him?!

IF he is guilty and has to live with this for the rest of his life, then that is a million times less than what April's family will feel over their lifetimes not to mention the damage to his own family.

MarthasHarbour Tue 09-Oct-12 13:21:51

'One, he has been charged with perverting the course of justice. So, he is not / has not been helping the investigation at all. Quite the reverse. He has been trying to lead the police in false directions. Does not sound like he regrets what he is accused of doing.'

greythorne that is quite a determined opinion. you dont know any of that as fact - i would be careful posting something like that tbh.

My friend is a serving police officer and has said that it is likely that he has told them where she is as the search area is so specific, and it is likely that due to the heavy rainfall she has moved. Again i dont know that as fact but a likelihood.

BoffinMum Tue 09-Oct-12 13:22:35

Boboli, I think the thing that exercises me is what happened to him that made him do something so dreadful? And how do we stop cycles like this?

MarthasHarbour Tue 09-Oct-12 13:25:57

i meant to add this to my last post - i copied and pasted this from the BBC website:

He has also been charged with child abduction and attempting to pervert the course of justice.

The latter charge refers to the unlawful disposal and concealment of a body.

ie not 'leading the police in false directions'

DuelingFanjo Tue 09-Oct-12 13:38:26

"He has also been charged with child abduction and attempting to pervert the course of justice.The latter charge refers to the unlawful disposal and concealment of a body."

Just a question but could these charges be made purely based upon the fact that he is not telling them anything so therefore because they believe he killed her they also believe he must know where she is and so they believe he is deliberately with-holding information. In other words, they may not have proof for either of those charges but they come as a natural extention to the charges of suspected murder?

If he is the man who did this, which im guessing he is as they must have collected enough evidence to charge him for perverting the course of justice, concealment of the body & murder!

It's the family of April my thoughts go out to. Her poor mum, not having her daughter to tuck in at night or never hug againsad
I'm not at all interested in his feelings and i hope he rots for what he has done to this little 5yo girl. She would have had her whole life ahead of hersad

edam Tue 09-Oct-12 14:03:52

thanks for explaining the perverting the course of justice charge, I'd been puzzled by that one. Given there's no duty on any of us to incriminate ourselves - you don't have to help the prosecution, they have to prove a case against you.

Boboli Tue 09-Oct-12 14:50:33

Boffin - I do agree, but I think perhaps that's the natural human need to want to understand how another human being could behave in this way?

I'm sure there are all sorts of psychological explanations for why someone might commit an act like this but I'm struggling on a human level to find any plausible excuse.

I'm also sceptical about learning about the motive to prevent anything like this happen again - is there a common motive between murderers? I have the simplistic view that there is just evil in the world - it's the only way I can make sense of it.

Without want to sound over dramatic, as mum of 2 v young DDs, some of the items in the news this last week, have really made me wonder for the first time what sort of world they are growing up in and how I can best equip them to deal some of the bad things they might come across.

I agree Boboli- just pure evil, there is no excusing or understanding in child killings.

perceptionreality Tue 09-Oct-12 15:25:26

On Facebook there is a group called 'Discuss whether MB is guilty or innocent' and loads and loads of speculation.

Everything is out of control on there and FB never delete anything it seems.

perceptionreality Tue 09-Oct-12 15:27:55

Boboli - I have found myself suddenly questioning those closest to me and not wanting to leave my children with them any more sad hopefully that feeling will fade because we can't live like this and it wouldn't be fair on the children.

But MB was a close friend of April's dad. How on earth must he be feeling right now?

NanaNina Tue 09-Oct-12 19:06:06

I have just googled "perverting the course of justice" and here is the result: "The course of justice including the police investigation of a possible crime. A false allegation which risks the arrest or wrongful arrest of an innocent person is enough. Pervert also means "alter" and any act that interfers with an investigation or causes it to head in the wrong direction may tend to pervert the course of justice. The Prosecution has to prove that there is a possibility that whatever the suspect has done might lead to a wrongful consequence, such as the arrest of an innocent party."

Martha I note from your post that the BBC website states that the perverting the course of justice relates to the unlawful and concealment of a body. If that is the case then so be it.

I was a member of a Jury when the charge against the defendent was "perverting the course of justice" and the allegation was that he had interfered with a witness in a criminal case. He was found not guilty.

The other time I have heard of this phrase is a woman I was involved with (through my work) whose daughter was driving a car when she purposely drove the car at an enemy and damaged the person. The mother told the police that it was someone else who was driving the car and not her daughter. She was found guilty.

These seem to fit with the google explanation. The trouble is with legal definitions is that they are complex and not always able to be understood by those of us who are not legal professionals.

Northernlurkerisbehindyouboo Tue 09-Oct-12 19:11:47

I wish they could find her. It could go on for years not having her back, always wondering where she was. I don't know how you keep on going with that on your heart.

On Saturday two little boys from down the street were playing out on their bikes. Their dad sat outside watching them whilst reading a paper. I have NEVER seen him do that before. The street is quiet, they were in sight of their home - but still he was doing something out of the ordinary for him and I can guess why. On Sunday dd3 was playing in the front garden of our friend's house. Big hedge, it's not really visible from the road and I could see her from inside the house. I stressed about 20 times that she was to stay there, not leave the garden no matter what etc, etc. I am a very laidback parent and I know how rare an event this was - but it's still freaked me out and changed my behaviour, at least for now.

Portofino Tue 09-Oct-12 19:34:29

My dd plays outside with her friends. We have had a LONG chat about this. It is not about strangers, it is about don.t go anywhere with anyone without checking first. My nextdoor neighbours often take all the kids out on a bike ride of a weekend. The same rules apply.

I think we need be very careful on here about discussing what MB may or may not have done. Due to strength of feeling they are likely to move any future trial somewhere else. Who knows who might get called up for Jury service...? And I would not wish such a thing on anyone...

BigWitchLegsInWailyTights Tue 09-Oct-12 19:37:13

The thing that's worrying, is that say someone they know very well asks them to get in their car. A person they are very familiar with...have a lot of contact with...and the child says no....and the person then says "Ah don't be daft...your Mum told me to pick you up."

Not many children would have the balls to continue to refuse. This is why I am considering a mobile phone for my DD aged 8.

Portofino Tue 09-Oct-12 19:48:33

No - that's why you need to STRESS about always checking. No matter who it is. Dd knows that only dh or I will collect from school unless there is a prior arrangement that she KNOWS about and is written in her class book. I told her that in an emergency, someone would ring the school first. And she must always check - even if it a friend's parent who she knows.

BigWitchLegsInWailyTights Tue 09-Oct-12 20:30:06

That's your DD...mine has arangements that can sometimes change at the last minute and I have noticed that her school will just let the DC out with another parent...say it's a parent who has taken them home before but by arrangement...then they will just allow a child to repeat this....not that this has happened with my DD but in theory it COULD....

I have collected her friends a few times as has my DH....not long ago, DH was asked last minute to pick the same girls up...he did...assuming the school were informed. He thought he'd better mention it to the teacher who said something like "Oh no it''s fine...we know she's been home with you before."

They had not been called by the girls parents. This is a small, rural school.

NanaNina & Boffinmum - I know what you mean, I also feel the same. It is inexplicable and I feel there must be an explanation - I need to understand how & why this has happened.

I am also uncomfortable with the things that are being said as we have no idea about what has happened or why - and until things become public knowledge I don't think we should be voicing those kinds of opinions about anyone in connection with this case.

I just know how sick I feel for April and her parents.

BigWitchLegsInWailyTights Tue 09-Oct-12 20:40:43

I don't want to talk about why he did it...it's obvious and doesn't bear thinking about.

Greythorne Tue 09-Oct-12 20:46:07

I apologize if I got the wring end of the stick re 'perverting the course of justice'.

I have heard it used in the context - admittedly a million miles from this - about a married couple who lied about who was driving when they jumped a red light to avoid one of them getting so many points they would be disqualified. Obviously, the original misdemeanor is incredibly minor but lying to police and trying to get the wrong person convicted is absolutely major....even when it's a driving offense.

I assumed in this case it meant something similar.


MarthasHarbour Tue 09-Oct-12 22:15:31

I apologise too - i feel so strongly about this case that i want it to be resolved quickly. I got caught up in what it could be or couldnt be and ended up picking your post apart blush

I just cant bear to think what Aprils family are going through. I am telling DS when he is old enough to always check with me - even if it is a close family friend offering a lift.

I am hugging him so tightly at the moment it is heartbreaking.

BoffinMum Tue 09-Oct-12 22:29:05

When I was at primary school a colleague of my dad's came to pick me up because there had been a family emergency. I completely refused to get in the car. I said something like, "Nope, I have heard about this sort of thing, and I am not getting in your car until I hear from my parents". The bloke burst out laughing, and had to radio my dad (they were both engineers). I then proceeded to interrogate my dad to make sure it really was him, and then he gave me permission to get in the car. Very reluctantly, I complied, and everything was OK. I was praised when I got home for being so cautious, but then my dad came up with the idea of having a family password so that we could tell if someone was coming with a real family message or not. Perhaps that's worth everyone considering?

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Wed 10-Oct-12 03:32:14

Family passwords are a great idea, changed after they actually have to be used, i use that system..

And well done you for being sensible as such a young child x

Greythorne Wed 10-Oct-12 06:02:15

Do you know what? There really is no easy answer. I read that passwords can work, but not fir younger children who apparently have a tendancy to blurt out, 'But you haven't said the word 'banana' yet!' or ''my mummy says I can only cone with you if you say the word 'banana''.

The truth is, we can equip children in any foolproof way against manipulative, adult criminals who will use every trick in the book, all the way to brute force where necessary.

Luckily, I suppose, the criminal evil-doers are few and far between. Small comfort.

DuelingFanjo Wed 10-Oct-12 09:47:08

I was watching Peppa Pig this morning and Peppa Pig went off with the postman to help deliver the mail. There was no password used.

How do people propose that we protect our children when popular children's tv programmes are making it look like it's ok to hop into mrs rabbit's train all the time? I am being flippant of course but clearly 'stranger danger' is pointless when most abuse happens with people that children already know.

BigWitchLegsInWailyTights Wed 10-Oct-12 09:55:35

I think possibly, it may be good to use martial arts Fanjo if we can't iradicate the possibiity, we can at least help children to defend themselves. Martial arts are good for confidence too....I am looking into it for my two DDs I think.

Thats a brilliant idea Bigwitch my girls would probably enjoy martial arts, good excercise and learning to protect themselves at the same time!

If your thinking about martial arts try and find one with a lil dragons program as they do special badges where they do stranger danger, beat the bullies, fire safety, safety around water and how to call 999. Certainly they used to.

BigWitchLegsInWailyTights Wed 10-Oct-12 10:29:13

That sounds good....there's a local one which is a family one...DH was thinking about going with the DDs as you can then all train together. Seemed like a good bonding thing. I will google Lil Dragons thanks!

The main site is American but lots of UK martial arts clubs do it.

I've just looked on the Coventry one and they are still doing the things I said about.
I remember dd being told about going with people we know too.

MrsSalvoMontalbano Wed 10-Oct-12 10:55:55

Agree about the family passowrd. We have one.

Tryingtothinkofnewsnazzyname Wed 10-Oct-12 11:03:30

I like the password idea but as Greythorne says, it only really works above a certain age. My DS runs and tells someone anything we say is a 'secret' at the moment (it's quite sweet as he whispers to them that it's a secret, but still... ) There really is no easy way to deal with all this.

DuelingFanjo Wed 10-Oct-12 12:07:41

The BBC are saying "Mr Bridger, from Machynlleth, is also charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice. The latter charge refers to the unlawful disposal and concealment of a body."

so this is not to do with him trying to blame another person or head the police off in the wrong direction? Just that theybelieve he has hidden the body.

NanaNina Wed 10-Oct-12 12:18:21

This has been discussed and clarified up thread DF

scaevola Wed 10-Oct-12 12:49:42

According to the BBC, MB has now appeared in Crown Court by video link and has been remanded in custody. Next appearance is 11 January for plea and case management hearing.

Sadly, still no news in the search for April.

DuelingFanjo Wed 10-Oct-12 12:57:15

Ah right - I wasn't sure it had been clarified. Just pointing out that now he has appeared in court (via link) the charges are more clear so there is no confusion between the google and legal definitions.

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