Andrew Mitchell needs to resign.(117 Posts)
Honestly he does......calliing a serving police officer "a pleb".
What an utter twat of the highest order....spoilt rich scumbag.
I'd rather Cameron had the balls to sack him.
Either of the above would do for me. Is utterly consistent with the reports I heard of his attitudes to staff in his last job. He sounds like a vile character.
Apparently he denied using the word "pleb", has apologised profusely to the officer concerned & been given a dressing down.
Stupid prat, totally out of order but the officers have (I'm sure) heard worse & in his defence he was only trying to do what he'd done loads of times before & suddenly the rules changed.
Absolutely no excuse for the tirade,but none of us is perfect, & he's not the first person to mouth off after a bad day at the office.
Bloody bad timing after the tragic news of this week, but as the original story came from The Sun I'm not sure the accuracy of the exact wording of the story can be verified, although the incident did happen.
Just listening to the news now, and it seems that the police officer has verified the sun's account.
It happened on Wednesday so a day after the two police officers were murdered when the Govt were falling over themselves to say how much they appreciate the police.
Poor timing and he sounds like a nasty piece of work.
Michael Really? In that case I agree that puts a different light on it. Wasn't sure how much was Sun-Spin. IYSWIM.
His timing is as about as bad as it can get when they must have all been feeling shaky poor sods.
Cameron is bloody furious with him, it does not reflect well.
Bet Mitchell would not have been so rude if he needed their protection. Arse.
He should resign - it is a disgrace
my DH works for the met, has worked constantly and tirelessly over the summer fir the jubilee and the olympics. Has annual leave and rest days cancelled at a moments notice, has to fight for overtime so that he can actually investigate cases and charge people, has had transport perks taken away and yet is still exoected to stand up and act when off duty and as we have seen this week unfortunately puts his life on the line everyday when he goes to work.
My DH is not a pleb he is a bloody hardworking man with great morals who wants to make the community he works in better. Yes he has been called worse at work but that just shows the incredible amount of disrespect that society & particularly this government have for the police force.
he should be gone
He needs to resign or be sacked, he cannot stay.
Sorry about the spelling mistakes (iphone) & rant!
It may make him rethink his actions, but certainly won't change the mind set .... More sorry that he was caught rather than contrite ..
I dont think the story has that much milage tbh. Im playing devils advocate here but if the awful events hadnt happened this week im not quite sure the story would be that big. And since when did everyone take the Suns word as gospel!!!!!
Why should he resign?
They should have opened the gate for him, he gave them some lip and then they went running to the media. I'm sure the police hear much worse every day.
He should not have been rude, but his job is to shout at people, it's not like he's minister for hugs & kisses - he is chief whip, chief enforcer, and it's difficult to see how this affects that.
His timing was terrible - verbally attacking a police officer when the news is full of the murder of two policewomen... would be bad enough in normal circs but in context, given he's a senior politician, what a twonk.
Apparently he's known as 'Thrasher' for his obsession with corporal punishment. :-0
Tories love that kind of thing, a 'hard man'. Gah. Repulsive.
He won't be sacked, he just made a mistake blurting out what they all think.
Have no truck with him - he's obviously a nasty piece of work, but - either the police should have arrested him, if it was an arrestable offence, or stayed schtum if it was just rude and unpleasant, not gone bleating to the Sun.
yes- if he'd been one of us 'plebs' he'd have ended up on the floor with his hands behind his back
I hate the political point scoring that insists on turning molehills into mountains. Man who is probably a bit of an arse gets lippy with police when he is having a bad day and he feels that they are being jobsworths, the end. I wouldn't expect to get sacked for that so I don't see why he should either, a dressing down and an apology seems sufficient. I consider being sacked a massive deal, but in politics it is almost treated like a game by some people who want to see sackings for the most minor of cock ups!
As for calling someone a pleb, I wonder how many people shouting about it being typical of Tory arrogance are guilty of referring to people they consider beneath them as "chavs"? Surely a worse insult than pleb, but it gets wheeled out all the time (including by lots of people on this site). All rather depressingly hypocritical!
Well Bluegrass if I called the security guard at my work a f***ing chav I'd expect to be sacked tbh. I'm kind of surprised you don't.
And no I don't call people chavs for your info. How sad that you assume everyone does. Presumably because you do?
The reality is that i most companies whether you were sacked in those specific circumstances would depend on how senior you were, how valuable you were, and whether a moment of ill temper should be allowed to blot an otherwise good career.
And whilst you might not call people "chavs" (I'll take you at your word in spite of your digs at me) this country is rife with it. "Typical Tory arrogance" just holds a mirror up to a society in which the majority seem to want to find someone to look down on so that they get to feel a bit superior.
Doesn't sound to me like a Tory bully has had 'an otherwise good career'. But I guess he does what it says on the tin: he 'whips' people. The police should have been exempted from that and he should not receive preferential treatment for seniority. In fact as a politician he should be held to a higher standard of behaviour.
It's bizarre that you think people who actively object to the word 'plebs' would use 'chavs'. Really bizarre.
Increasingly I'm amazed at the level of cynical indifference in your post...I guess to you politicians are just CEOs eh? That's the 'real world'? Rubbish. They have standards to live up to and this guy just fell way below them.
Why should they have opened the gates for him? The police are in charge of security at Downing Street over him.
I'm sure that quite rightly they feel every time the main gate is opened it makes the street a bit more vunerable for the time the gate is opened. Someone could take that opportunity to ram through with a car and a suicide bomb. If such a car kept driving past waiting for such an opportunity then the more times the gate is opened the more likely they are to get the timing right.
Yes its unlikely, but perfectly possible.
So I can see why the police would prefer cyclists to use the smaller gate.
He shouldn't have called them plebs or sworn at them. Such behaviour demonstrates the contempt he hold ordinary people in and exposes his delusions of granduer. I hate all these politicans who feel they're so much more important than us, don't have to follow the rules, they're untouchanble, etc. Its wrong.
Now, by denying he said these things he's calling that police officer a liar. Again very wrong. He should have the courage to admit to his mistake and take the consequences. Instead he's a spineless worm who would happily see another person be sacked instead. After all if he's saying the police officer is a liar then the police officer's senior officers will have to look at investigating this officer!
^ what Viva said. Exactly.
He needs latin lessons from Boris J if he did use that word (which he seems to deny). It's prole not pleb. The plebians were quite well off.
The fact is that the police are pretty working class so that's not inaccurate and if he'd always been allowed to drive that way it is bit much suddenly to change the rules but no one should ever be rude to anyone. In fact the way we all treat the proletariat is the best way to judge people and those of real class are polite in particular to those well below them who cannot in any sense help them. It's a key indicator to me of how good a person is - how they treat proles etc...
Also people should try never to lose their temper however badly they feel. It's a key skill. However awful you feel just don't go shouting at others.
I want to see the CCTV footage. Mumsnetters should put in an FOIA request to view it.
Ugh. Xenia, please don't talk about 'the proletariat' like that. I'm no doubt one of them in your eyes and I find that bloody offensive.
'polite to those well below them'
ugh, ugh, ugh
Viva has put it perfectly. He revelaed his contempt for those working to support him, which is a very unpleasant thing. Also, Skippy (I think) Mitchell's job is not 'to shout at people', it's to get them on side - may sometimes involve pressure but shouldn't mean he just gets to shout at people all day!
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Why should he resign? Because he should be setting an example and he's clearly crossed the line for something which really shouldn't have been an issue.
If he can't control his temper because of something petty like this, how do we trust he can operate at a senior level in running the country?
They should have opened the gate for him, he gave them some lip and then they went running to the media. I'm sure the police hear much worse every day.
Maybe they should have yes. But they didn't and the met are responsible for security. I'm sure a person of his authority would be able to escalate to a senior officer without too much difficulty.
And just because oiks abuse police every day doesn't mean he should be forgiven. If anything it makes it even worse that he holds in such contempt, the very thin blue line he expects to protect him.
Well I think it is generally regarded that the whips do work on threats and shouting.
And yes, the gate should be opened. Either it can be opened or it can't, they'd already opened it 3 times that day for him.
Absolutely niceguy. Politicians are under a duty to serve. They are not entitled to run around shouting 'do you know who I am f***iing pleb' etc. And if CEOs etc do that and get away with it, it's further proof of what a sad money-driven monoculture we live in.
Oh gosh, what fun.
I certainly was not suggesting rudeness was ever justified. Perhaps the proof might be in analysis of comments he has made to others. Has he muddled plebs with proles before? We need to know. It is so important for the good of the nation.
He certainly sounds like one of those full of his own importance but not that great at dealing with people jumped up nothings who would be a nightmare to be married to and constantly losing his temper. This is what happens when Cameron puts men not women in charge. We need at least 50% of the cabinet and leading roles at that to be female. Chief whip could be female too.
If he cannot cope with stress he needs to stay home and be a househusband and then he can simply take out his frustration on the loo when he wields the lavatory brush ready for his wife to check he did it properly when she gets back from her GP surgery.
Apparently boris is often sent through the smaller gate and never complains when directed that way.
I hope from now on there's some official policy that all cyclists have to use the smaller gate.
Telegraph diarist at the weekend recounted a story of introducing Mitchell to his (the diarist's) girlfriend when they were both at Oxford. Diarist explained that his girlfriend was doing teacher training at Homerton in London. Mitchell sneered 'and which secondary modern did you go to?'.
I've been through those gates a few times, btw, and while it'd be easier for a cyclist to ride through the main gates, it's not terribly inconvenient to wheel your bike through the side gate. Hardly the biggest issue of the day. Irritating if he was already on the bike a fairly minor issue. In fact quite good for politicians not to be treated like Lord High Almighty once in a while.
I don't think cyclists should be told they are pedestrians. I doubt the police would be too impressed if he carried on cycling out the gate on the pavement.
I certainly wouldn't be.
Cyclists should not be lower status than motor vehicles.
Just remembered I met him a few weeks back, at a big do for international development (before he got the Chief Whip job). He seemed perfectly pleasant but it's easy to give that impression at a party where you don't have to do anything other than nod and smile.
I had more fun with his then junior minister, Alan Duncan, who got quite heated on the topic of Ed Balls winding up the Tories...
It is unfortunate that his Latin phrase wasn't sufficiently apposite for the specific kind of rudeness he was trying to convey - on the other hand, lovely use of the subjunctive. Well done Mr Mitchell
Well I think it is generally regarded that the whips do work on threats and shouting.
It's one thing to threaten an MP with a sanction for not towing the party line and/or voting as directed. It's totally another to abuse a member of the police for doing his job.
I dont hold mps or police up as moral beacons tbh. I am feeling a bit icky about the political point scoring in this. Its like they are flogging and flogging this story, desperate for the public to jump on board and be outraged. I dont think most of them are if twitter or emails to news channels are anything to go by. I know its very sensitive at the moment and i fear thats why the police fed are continuing with this TORY mp and also the Sun taking this up for our police force, after the dreadful week they had last week re Hillsborough. It seems to me a bit of a non story but the trial by media continues and the police fed or Sky news wont be satisfied until he has been sacked or resigns.
No he should not have said whichever variation of words your chosen newspaper says he said. Being rude is hardly crime of the century however.
If he does a good job for his constituents then an episode of obnoxiousness towards an obstructive policeman is of very little relevance.
I feel really weird siding with an arsehole like Mitchell but I think the officers were trying to get a rise and it worked.
Presumably that gate has been opened for him before, otherwise, how did he get in? He shouldn't have shouted and sworn. But it's not unheard of. He's grovelled, which is more than you usually get from a minister, and he's apologised to the officer concerned and she apparently has accepted his apology. That really ought to be the end of it.
The Met Police Federation are playing this like a fiddle because they oppose the cuts proposed by the Coalition. So do many people, but they don't usually get such sympathy from The Sun.
Federation chairman John Tully came over very badly about this on morning news bulletins. He sounded like a union leader despite prissily insisting the the police don't have unions because it's against the law.
Oh yeah, it is, and junior officers aren't allowed to talk to the press either but somehow the contents of their notebooks ended up on the front of The Sun.
When Tully called for an official inquiry on Sky News the emails and tweets were all groaning: 'Oh no, not another one. How much will that cost?'
Again, can't believe I'm sticking up for Mitchell, but this is clearly an attack on proposed cuts to public sector workers by their 'union'. Again, not something I'd normally disagree with. But lots of us are suffering Goverment cuts too and we don't get special treatment.
Doesn't matter - losing your temper is one thing (though however unreasonable I felt they were being, I don't think I'd ever feel safe in losing it with a police officer!), but it's the language you use when you lose it that counts.
If your recourse is to unacceptable language, the issue is no longer about your temper but about your attitudes. However cross you were, or however long your day, can you imagine yourself calling someone a black bastard, a paki, a stupid whore...?
He didn't call him a paki though?
When my two were younger, if I found one howling and rubbing her head and the other defiant and angry, the recount of what happened would often go:
'Well I said she shouldn't have put it there, and she put it there anyway and she called me an idiot..... and then I can't remember what happened' (ie, then I hit her).
I think Mitchell is essentially using what is now well-known in our house as the 'then I can't remember what happened' defence, and it's unconvincing.
No skippy my point is that some language is unforgiveable no matter how cross you are or how unreasonable you consider someone else.
The use of the word 'pleb' is so telling though. Just adds to the impression of government by an out-of-touch elite who regard everyone else with contempt. Whether he said it or not (and it's an odd word for police officers to make up) or whether there are ministers who respect state school educated non-millionaires, it's another nail in their coffin, after Nadine Dorries' summary of them as posh boys who don't know the price of a pint of milk, and Cameron's 'calm down dear'.
No steaming I can't imagine doing that.
But however much we dislike Mitchell and however much I'm sure the word 'pleb' does pour from his lips, the notes of two police officers on duty together while their union is fighting job cuts aren't exactly corroborative evidence.
My father refers to pushy car drivers as 'peasants'. I don't think this means he wants to bring back the feudal system.
Mitchell obviously gets wound up quite easily.
That has manifested itself in him being rude to an obstructive policeman. Not great, but a better response than punching people for example, which was no barrier to being Deputy PM.
Why is blood wanted? The public are not buying it because they know its a non story and imo it stinks
(and an ignorant elite - all that expensive education and yet, as people have said, he doesn't understand the position of the plebians in Rome nor apparently the origins of the word 'plebiscite' despite being a politician).
Well I'm no keener on your father calling people peasants than on Mitchell calling them plebs, Skippy.
me neither skippy. That's a pretty unpleasant insult, but at least he's not shouting it in their faces as Mitchell did.
Hands up everyone who really believes that there is no sound recording on the security cameras.
Well I don't think it's a statement on their financial background, since the kind of drivers who do this are most commonly found driving BMWs and the like.
I don't think he believes that they are going home to till their rented strip of arable land.
I have no idea why Mitchell might use the word 'pleb', but people have their favourite epithets I suppose.
No, nobody is accusing your father of being a confused literalist.... I personally don't like the idea of calling people 'peasants': I think it's quite unpleasant. Same goes for pleb or prole.
Silly men (it's usually men which is whjy we need many more women in this type of role and more men like him at home cleaning the bathrooms all day) often do lose their tempers and use stupid language. An anger management course might do him good. I pity his family. I bet he's always losing his temper at home.
Who gave this so called evidence to the Sun?
They're probably phone tapping again.
Some CCTV do have sound capability. Whilst waiting to go into a prison once I was waiting for aages and so burst into my version of "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" - full length with feeling. It amused me at the time - as well as the CCTV operators. Round of applause at the end.
The fact he will not be accountable and say exactly what he said indicates the contempt he and many of his 'colleagues' hold the public in.
one law for the rich, and one for the poor
He's got a point.
piglet I don't think Gemmell should have been jailed for swearing. It was a political over reaction that people were happy to go along with without thinking that in certain circumstances they might find themselves in court after an altercation with the police.
That was the conclusion of a judge very recently. I'll dig it out if anyone really wants me too.
In Gemmell's case the officer may have genuinely felt threatened but a night in the cells works wonders.
In his case, and Mitchell's, 'run along sonny' is usually sufficient.
Anyway, it's gone to the Met Commissioner and he doesn't want it going any further. I think those officers were very badly advised by their police Federation rep and the newly-appointed head of the Chief Supts' Assoc who wanted to make a name for themselves.
I think all of them have been told to wind their necks in. The officers on duty at the time will be the ones who come off worst for opening their notebooks to The Sun. I'll be flabbergasted if they're still waving Dave through tomorrow.
limited, that'd be a shame. The public needs to know what kind of people are running the government on our behalf. If we only ever see the shiny PR spin, we aren't getting a true picture.
Interesting to see the relationship between The Sun and the Met hasn't been damaged by all that norty phone-hacking...
Just for a different perspective, here's a self-important arsehole policeman cutting up a cyclist.
The arrogance comes oozing from every pore.
The cyclist speaks to him appropriately, but it's easy to see how you could lose your cool.
edam At the risk of being cliched, they're all in it together, aren't they?
The first police officer, a Met chief inspector, was charged yesterday for allegedly passing information to the News of the World. It's taken long enough. I wonder if she'll appear in court with NoTW executives. I would have thought that was logical. I wouldn't like to think that people were trying to stagger prosecutions so they fail.
Yes, people do need to know about the kind of people in any govt, but the paramount responsibility of union reps is to protect their members. Quite often that's against rash things the members do to themselves like breaching employment conditions that could lead to minor disciplinary action right up to instant dismissal for gross misconduct. It looks like there's been a serious breach of the Met's rules here. If it happened it was tempting and even understandable but dangerous.
I'm aware that John Tully of the Met Police Federation and his fans on this site don't like to call him a union rep. But as I said in a different discussion the other day: if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
I think he's been incredibly stupid and glory-hunting and has served these officers very badly. As has Chief Supt Irene Curtis of the Police Supts' Assoc who also stuck her oar in. That's also not a union, I was assured in the same discussion. Unions aren't allowed in the police, so obviously they don't exist, not even under names like federations and associations.
He's said sorry, but still doesn't admit he actually said it.
That's not much of an apology is it?
Oh and AFAIK the Met's commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe is Teresa May's pet.
When the previous commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson had to step down last year through ill-health - nothing to do with his embroilment in the NI scandal - May had the untempting choice of three senior officers who were likely to be a bit difficult to handle.
Tim Godwin, who'd been doing the job in Stephenson's sick leave, Stephen House who I don't really know much about and the front-runner Sir Hugh Orde, former Chief Constable of Northern Ireland who had a high profile and said to be very popular with the rank and file and tabloids.
There was talk of a pact between the three whereby they'd refuse to bitch about each other making it difficult for May, and Boris Johnson who had his pawprints all over the resignation of 'difficult' Sir Ian Blair, someone else who was trashed in The Sun and the Mail for being too PC, to choose a puppet.
Suddenly Hogan-Howe, nicknamed Haagen-Dazs by officers in Merseyside because he allegedly melts in the heat, streaked ahead.
It's Hogan-Howe who's ridden to the rescue of the govt by refusing to take this any further.
At least one of the officers may face disciplinary action.
"My father refers to pushy car drivers as 'peasants'. I don't think this means he wants to bring back the feudal system."
Your father is not (I assume) running the country nor meant to be representing the public.
That he chooses to direct such ignorant language towards members of the public in the privacy of his car is none of our business.
That an elected MP does is. It's absolutely appalling that he has such attitudes.
The quote (from The Independant) is:
'Best you learn your f**** place ... you don't run this f**** government ... you're f**** plebs.'
It's not just the word, it's the whole context, I can't see that his position is tenable.
It's crap, for sure - but only to be expected. They are toffs. But, fatally, pretending not to be.
I wish so much all the sound and fury could be spent on looking at the real , real, appalling, lasting damage to society this government is wreaking.
Of course the report is true - it's the 'pleb' word. Few bobbies would invent that. Fewer still readers of a mass market paper under age 30 would understand the spectrum of offensive implications but of course that's not the point.
Few bobbies would invent that. Fewer still readers of a mass market paper under age 30 would understand the spectrum of offensive implications but of course that's not the point.
alicetrefusis I may or may not agree with you but that's an offensive thing to say.
Just like calling people plebs, in fact.
It's the gulf between what Mitchell said in his mealy-mouthed apology, and what the policeman said Mitchell said, that is the issue for me.
This is not a 'difference of recollections'. There is a clear statement by a police officer serving at Downing Street that Mitchell was warned about being arrested for his behaviour. Mitchell on the other hand has been less clear and appears to be dismissing that event as a frippery of his day.
Do I believe that police officers sometimes lie? Yes. Do I believe Mitchell on this occasion? No. He is the one who is not credible.
linerunner the police, politicians and The Sun have form for making things up for a splash. It's barely two weeks after the 'definitive' Hillsborough report.
No one comes out of this well.
Why should he resign!!!! Has anyone resigned over Hillsborough? Has anyone resigned over the shooting of Charles de Menzes? I agree with last poster noone will come up smelling of roses.
Poor old MPs - can't ever makes can they.
Can't ever make mistakes can they - I mean!
I don't want him to resign. I despise this Government and he's yet another example of its incompetence and evidence of Dave's propensity of making friends of weasels and inept bullies
Mitchell has no credibility as a chief whip any more, if a chief whip whose main weapon is to shout obscenities ever had. The nickname 'Thrasher' doesn't exactly conjure up a silky Machiavelli.
Let Dave and Mitchell twist in the wind.
But as I said, the police do not come out of this terribly well either.
It is very depressing the way many of the posters on this thread view the police.
The truth is the met police is being horrendously squuezed, they have to may 500m savings by 2014. Officers are losing jobs, having to work longer hours for less money, have annual leave cancelled at last minute. The majority of officers have just been on high alert for the last 3 months for the Olympic rota which means my DH has literally worked constantly over the summer with no increase in pay and no thanks. Promotion prospects have been cut and morale is at a horrendously low ebb.
Then 2 police officers are lured to their murder with a grenade & gun attack. . .
Then a high level government official feels it is acceptable to speak in such an inappropriate & disparaging way to a police officer - can you understand why the police fed are so pissed off?
This government shows no respect for the police force and this is unfortunately indicative of society as a whole (many disparaging remarks about police officers have been posted on this thread - not understanding the word pleb/ not reading certain newspapers/ working class etc)
Mitchell should resign and people should fight against the obvious lack of respect the government has for the police. The budget cuts are massive and are going to have a massive impact on policing in London no matter what they say.
The met police is so under funded at the moment that they still use cassette tapes in interviews - and they want to cut that funding by another 500million.
Mostof us admire and respect the police but the fact your husband has worked all summer is no different from the rest of us expect he will also get a pension unlike many of us and has a right to retire after 30 y ears of service even if that is age 49 rather thanworking to 67+ as many of us will be doing.
The fact is that police officers are both better paid, and have a much lower risk of occupational death or injury than many other professions.
There are 50 people a year killed in the construction industry. A slightly smaller number in agriculture. How many in the police?
It is absolutely ridiculous to say that because two police were shot in Manchester, that that should affect how you talk to someone in London.
You wouldn't get a builder saying that someone got killed in Liverpool yesterday so he's not going to do his job in Plymouth.
There are many shitty jobs which don't get public respect. I am not convinced that being a police officer is one of them.
Xenia you have no idea.
My SIL worked pretty much a whole month without a break (no weekends of days off) because of the Olympics.
Officially she had a "day off" between two massive shift patterns, but the timings of the shifts meant it wasn't a full day, and all she had time to do was sleep. Some day off!
I don't care how stressful you think your job is in the financial world, it has nothing on what the police can experience day in and day out.
And I expect you have weekends off, no?
I'm not someone who blindly stands up for the police btw! In my hometown they've got a reputation for being corrupt and I certainly don't trust them blindly. Skippy makes a good point also.
However Xenia your comments are very out of touch IMO.
I want the police to be well rested and able to make good decisions, not stretched to their limits. How does that help anyone?
Actually I often work 7 days a week and I take 2 weeks holiday a year and have done that over 30 years and without maternity leaves either, but I am sure it is very very different from the work of the police and I am certainly not in competition in who works the hardest.
Market forces will always prevail. When the police pay and conditions are worse than police can find in jobs available in the private sector then the state will have to improve the terms again. At the moment there are no jobs to be had for love nor money in just about any sector sop there is very little we can do to public sector pay and conditions which is likely to cause too many people to leave.
So Xenia this summer you have:
Worked literally everyday
Had your annual leave cancelled at a days notice
Worked the entire summer having had all annual leave from june to october cancelled
Put on a stab vest everyday
Worked with aggressive & violent members of the public
Been spat at and abused in your workplace
Put yourself in dangerous and aggressive situations
put yourself at risk of harm throughout each and everyday
Erm - no I though not. You said it's not a competition but you think that your summer has been the same - sod off!
Yes my husband gets a good pension (well it used to be, god knows what it will be like when he actually retires) but he works bloody hard for it and that is one of the reasons why he went into the police force. Nothing is stopping you from signing up is there - it should be a piece of cake given the work you do - what is it again?
Oh and thanks for the stats skippy I can sleep easily now I know that it's actually more dangerous to be a farmer than a policeman
Use your common sense lady
No I don't wear a stab vest. Obviously the market determines the worth of people so you can usually go by their pay as to their worth and value. Those jobs few can do are better paid. If policemen don't like their job they can try other jobs. Obviously most of us admire the hard work that they do but they are not on some kind of sainted platform.
We had a week abroad this summer. I have genuinely worked every other day but it is at a computer and often at home even if the hours are pretty long. Any policeman who thinks they can set up my business and run it is free to do so - it's a free country thankfully.
I don't want to be a policeman but many do a good job although obviously not all as in any profession. The country does not haev the money to pay for things. Frank Field on Radio 4 this morning was making that piont - that for decades, not just now, we have spent more than we have and that has to change.
'you can usually go on their pay as to their worth & value'
well I think that says everything about you that we need to know, what a digusting and very sad sentiment
I will leave you to your hard work in your wonderful home - I hope that if you ever really need the police you treat them with more respect
Cleaners are usually very badly paid but I would suggest that their worth and value in an organisation is rather high Xenia. Not everything and everyone can be given a monetary value you sad person.
I can guarantee that a policeman or nurse or teacher or librarian will be doing something of more value than you at your PC.
Anyway - back to that MP...
A right storm in a teacup if you ask me.
Everyone on this thread has chosen to live under capitalism. You could try to make your way in north Korea or Cuba or parts of South America if you do not like how capitalism values things. I simply say what is true - the market decides. The pretty girl gets the good looking rich man. The girl with nothing to offer finds it harder to find a man. Ditto with work and our talents. Most of us can clean a floor so the pay is pretty poor. Few can play football like Beckham hence the pay differential.
Socialism has been shown to have failed wherever it has been tried.
Marxists on this thread might like the final episode next week of this series as it will be about Marx www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01n2rpx/Masters_of_Money_Hayek/ The Hayek episode which I just watched of course is likely to be the best given my own free market views.
Xenia - oh for goodness sakes - go kiss your kids goodnight and read them a story!!
They are wonderful children but rather large. One is out at lacrosse so I can hardly cuddle her now. I have been lucky enough to spread motherhood over 28 years now but even I who adore bed time stories with them cannot quite manage it with teenage boys (the youngest). I was turned down when I offered to read a bit of the book of one's homework reading to him in bed when he was complaining about some tiny chunk of text to be read.
The Hayek programme was really interesting. Just as every good Communist on this thread would tell me we don't know if communism works as it's never been properly tried, nor have Hayek's free market ideas been tried. In 2001 we kept interest rates down, we interfered in markets, we never let them free. Whoever is in power want to have power and keep it.
Plenty of policemen go into private security and some forces people on retirement go off to Africa to provide security, arms, private armies - the free market and security is a fascinating issue. Perhaps we should add sale of guns and provision of private soliders in Africa to the ideas on the women who earn £1k a day thread.
"utter twat of the highest order."
"spoilt rich scumbag"
"sounds like a vile character."
"nasty piece of work"
"Apparently he's known as 'Thrasher'"
"Tories love that kind of thing"
"obviously a nasty piece of work"
"posh boys who don't know the price of a pint of milk,"
Judging from this thread, I'd say petty name-calling is fairly common throughout society. Should we have a list of those for whom it is OK and those for whom it is not? Who gets to decide?
You watched television, Xenia? How did you manage to find time for that, what with your oh-so-demanding job and everything?
I think there's a difference between name calling on a forum where the person isn't going to read it/be affected and that person has done something to cause people to have such opinions of him and name calling a person to their face simply for doing their normal job.
You can't really compare the two.
As I said upthread, my personal issue is that it looks like Mitchell isn't being upfront about what happened. If he'd just admitted it and said sorry that's one thing. But saying sorry whilst simultaneously fudging what he actually did and said just seems shallow.
You don't see mAny police officers on MN repeatedly telling us all day long that the best thing a mother can do for her children is become a police officer, do you?
You don't see many computer programmers doing that either.
All a bit of a storm in a teacup. Surely there are more important issues in the world to get worked up about...
I find it possible to care about more that one thing at a time, though. Especially when chatting on a parenting website. I don't imagine I'm heading up a United Nations World Problem Prioritisation Summit.
Well I try not to.
Oh, I would say most people have the ability to multi-task. Maybe, I should be clearer; I would say that currently there are probably thousands of issues more important than this.
Plump middle aged man on fairly lowish income who thinks he is great shouts at the police and swears... there are a lot of them about. They litter all classes.
What I look for is people who are polite to others - that is what class is about.
But then he didn't go to Eton did he? Just Rugby.
LOL at the attempt to differentiate between Eton & "just Rugby"!!!! Does that make a difference?
It might do. Eton is academically superior and perhaps teaches better manners and when AM was there I doubt Rugby was that good. It has got a bit better recently although he is not a great example of the manners one hopes one pays school fees in part to engender.
Or you could argue that parents should have perhaps taught better manners? Surely, we are not expecting schools to have to do everything - even such esteemed insitutions as Eton & Rugby (despite any reservations about their actual ability to educate, even though the fees are extortionate)?
Andrew Mitchell's father was an MP himself, I can't believe he wouldn't have set a stirling example for his son to behave exactly how he himself would have done!
If Eton's so academically superior, how come Cameron didn't know what Magna Carta means? And thought Elgar wrote Rule Brittania (only a couple of centuries out...)
It is very hard to get into Eton and most of the boys are very clever. Rugby is a bit easier and was probably even easier in Mitchell's day.
Xenia, I'm just not getting the connection with cleverness & rudeness? I must be too thick - please explain?
Having spent most of my career amongst ex public school boys I can tell you that many have appalling manners (not talking about how to hold a knife and fork, but how to treat other people) - and old Etonians are the worst.
frilly, that's interesting. The OEs I have known mostly have beautiful manners but some are terribly arrogant. There are some who are aware that they are ridiculously privileged and try to contribute something to society, and some who take that privilege as their right and have contempt for anyone who doesn't have the same advantages.
My sister's old Etonian boss used to send her out for tomato sandwiches on Mother's Pride. He also gave her his PINs. Nice man. Emotionally and socially stunted. Bullied by his underling who'd been to Harrow. Both in positions of enormous privilege in the City. They'll be retired now but did more than okay.
Bears of average brain despite what anyone says.
It is academically much harder to get into Eton than Rugby. The best schools in the private sector and state teach children manners. Mr Mitchell should not be rude to policemen.
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