Mumsnet Talk

Just wanted to mention that there is a new petition to try and stop the pilot badger culls:

epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/38257

More info at www.badger.org.uk and www.defra.gov.uk/animal-diseases/a-z/bovine-tb/

Please sign if you think the cull should be stopped. Obviously if you think it should go ahead you won't be signing!

Thanks

Thanks for the link. I'll sign.
I think the cull is a joke.
All the evidence, even from the government scientist, has shown, repeatedly, that a cull not only doesn't really help much but increases bovine TB occurrences.
For a cull to have any effect, it needs to be country-wide (as in remove 95% of the UK's badgers) and should probably also include deer, at the very least.
When will they stop pumping money into a scheme that everyone who has any evidence for it has said is a waste of resources, and start spending that money on something that might actually turn out to be constructive?

I have signed- it's inhuman, impractical and bad science. There's better ways to support dairy farmers- like paying them a decent price for their milk.

Ive signed.

Have already signed and sent to as many people as possible.

I am a smallholder and live in a part of Pembrokeshire, that was a Intensive Action Pilot Area 3 years ago. We set up an Action Group against the Cull, and worked bloody hard. The Welsh Assembly Government (WAG) got as far as surveying everyones land, and i know the realitys of what happened to those that refused entry.. The WAG at that time spread the rumour that we were Animal Rights activists, and for a while the surveyors arrived wearing banaclavas for 'protection', even to the front door of an OAP who lived by herself and owned land. I know a 76 year old that was arrested for refusing entry. I don't mean to scaremonger, but that period of time was hell on earth.

The Badger Trust won their appeal at the High Court, and the bill was overturned. Thank god at the last election the WAG was Labour lead, or we would be fighting again..This Summer We all had our badgers vaccinated in the whole of North Pembrokeshire. it was very easy, (i observed every step on my land) and brilliantly organised by WAG, and i completely applaud them!

How can the English government order this cull? It goes against all the scientific evidence, and will make TB cases worse in the surrounding areas. At best they can only hope to reduce TB by 16% in the first few years. Deer, rats, sheep and even dogs carry the virus, the bacteria even lives in the Slurry produced by infected cattle. I could go on..

When a suggestion of a cull was here, the WAG were going to bait the cages, and kill them with one clean guaranteed shot, causing as little distress to the animal as possible. Now i would be interested to know HOW the English government can guarantee killing their badgers in a humane way, while free shooting in the dark, it's disgusting.

The whole idea of a cull is illogical, inhuman and very very scarey.

Thank you for linking RedMolly!

bump

Blimey Jellykat. I know it came close to the wire in Wales but had no idea those sort of tactics were used. Really glad so many people seem to be getting behind this - been contacting folk all day and so far haven't had a negative response.

bump

Oh yes RedMolly, it was horrific for us landowners.. What scares me the most about the English situation is that 'if' they decide the trials due to be carried are 'successful' (which i'm afraid to say they will inevitably have to, in order to warrant the costs) the cull will be rolled out across the whole of England, for many years to come.

Keep fighting it, there are so many public figures against the cull, as well as many many Action groups....sadly it doesn't look like the majority of MNers are supportive of our wildlife it has to be said

Where are all the people on the wildlife top trumps threads?

We have a pair of badgers who live either in our back garden or in the field at the back, they trundle past the French windows at night, inches away! It's magical to see them. I know they are considered pests but DP and I would miss Mr and Mrs Badger

Bump.

My sil is a scientist and ecologist and says the Tories are only doing it to appease the farmers. From a science pov it makes no sense.

Who knows barbarian, am flummoxed as have had many positive discussions on here re. these particular furrys..

Oo the petitions reached over halfway, have to say its moving fast..

Maybe we should just chat (and therefore keep bumping)

Done. I feel very strongly about this. I've put it on my FB and re-tweeted the link lots too.

Okay Jellykat, let's chat about dairy farms. We have a dairy farm a mile away. The barns and sheds are in pieces, slurry runs down the road and chews holes in the hardcore, the cows limp between shabby fields. In winter the yards are a swamp. I found a dismembered calf in a field this summer. I know very little about farming but some people on this thread clearly do, so how is it allowed to function? Are there no hygiene checks? Why are the RSPCA so helpless to do anything?

Signed and shared on Facebook.

I know I am probably thick but....

We are an island. Why can't we vaccinate cattle/badgers for a few years and just eradicate TB totally? Obviously it will cost, but so will killing badgers.

Another bump. It's bad science people and even if killing badgers for no scientific reason doesn't bother you, what about the enormous public expense? Sil's ecology consultancy has already been paid an enormous amount to advise the government on this, and she has concluded that it is a political policy and the consultation was a sham. Don't let the government lie to us and spend our money on useless projects (meanwhile dismantling our health services and cutting public services everywhere)

Thats exactly what originally happened here mummy.. it also has to be said that better cattle control measures (some of which were so blatantly obvious and simple it was ridiculous) here have greatly reduced the TB figures over the last 2 years.

I also have to add there has never been a case of Bovine TB in my immediate area, i am surrounded by small farms, no intensive farming i can see every day really clean conditions and happy healthy cattle.. i have 3 setts and was told there are 16 setts in the woodland below me..

Yes Barbarian, there are lots of farms like the one you describe, but i tell you after WAG introduced measures around here, farmers had to pull up their socks bloody fast.
You think how quickly TB could be spread from the farm you describe, cattle with poor immune systems, rats carrying the disease. as well as possibly infected slurry sitting around for everything and everyone to walk through..

Our badger vaccinators sterilised their boots between every farm, that shows one aspect of how the disease can be spread.

Yes, Itsallgoing we can vaccinate badgers now, i think the cattle vaccine will be ready in 2015.. There is importing of cattle, but that's not the badgers' problem.
There are many that question the testing process anyway.

That's interesting Jelly where do you live

I've signed and forwarded. There is NO accurate scientific evidence to support this cull of a so-called protected species. I have a friend who works at DEFRA on this issue and agrees wholeheartedly that this is a big mistake.

It's devastating.

Oops, my last sentence should read - There are many that question the TB testing process anyway..

I live in North Pembrokeshire mummy.

How do other countries, eg France manage re. tb in the dairy herds?

Ah, I see. Well let's keep bumping and spreading word about the petition.

But surely as we are an island we could easily screen cattle prior to import?

If tb cattle infected milk gets mixed in with non infected milk does pasteurisation destroy the risk to human consumers.

I think the tests (the skin prick tests that are currently widely used here) don't always detect early stages of Bovine TB, some animals can carry but not develop it full blown for sometime.

barbarian Yes it would.. Have just read that in the last decade only a handful of humans have contracted TB from animals.

This was in the news a couple of days ago.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19623703
This is all about appeasing the farming community. I can only imagine how devastating TB can be if you have it in your herd, but this cull seems to fly in the face of scientific findings.

Thing is, I understand farmers' desire that 'something should be done' and it seems to me that is the Govt's motivation - to be seen to be doing something (as with so much political meddling and muddling). But, if I was a farmer i'd read the evidence and feel deeply condescended to by a govt that thinks I'd rather have something ineffective and potentially harmful done than wait for the cattle vaccine. Especially as doing this costs money and takes up people's time.

I don't think the desire to be doing something, sense of being ineffectual while waiting and perhaps the Govt's desire to encourage people to take their frustrations out by shooting something (as they won't be wasting parliamentary time lifting the hunting ban this term) should be underestimated.

Have a read of

www.badgerall.com/blog/the-self-perpetuating-price-of-culling-a-tale-from-ireland

this is the reality of a cull.

Read the link Jellykat

After the extensive culling of 2011, what is the situation now? Strangely (and coinciding with the science), bTB is now RAMPANT in this area.

It is all so utterly pointless isn't it?

Is there any chance of getting this thread moved to somewhere where it may get a bit more traffic, or added to discussions of the day? I haven't started many posts so am a bit clueless how to go about it. If anyone knows and thinks it is a good idea, please feel free to do what's needed and prevail on the powers that be mn.

Just want as many people as possible to be made aware of this. The petition was over 62000 this morning - would be a shame to lose the momentum.

DEFRA have a consultation on bovine tb strategy that runs until 19 October (see link in op) if anyone would like to comment.

What is the National Trust's stance on this? I know all the wildlife charities, RSPB etc. are against. And some supermarkets, sadly not Sainsburys so I had to go to the co op yesterday which was full of very slow walking people (and badgers of course).

I'm from a farming family though we haven't farmed dairy at any point in our history and I'm so torn on this one.

I personally can't find any evidence (and I've been following this on and off for some years now) that a badger cull will make any difference and I just can't understand why vaccination is not implemented. Furthermore there seems to be no conclusive evidence about the dangers of TB infected milk being any danger to humans whatsoever. Llke an earlier poster said surely pasteurisation would do the job- or would we end up with a BSE style veto on all british dairy products if it was found that TB infected milk was in the system? I would imagine we would.

The only serious reason I can see for farmers backing a cull is that they personally would perhaps be expected to foot the bill for vaccinating their cattle rather than it coming from the public purse. But would the cost of vaccinating be any more than the cost of implementing a cull from public/EU money? The cost of paying for vaccs on the average dairy herd would surely kill the dairy industry completely, it is on its knees anyway with the cost of keeping each cow normally higher than the amount it generates anually. As it is and most farmers carry on in dairy because their families have traditionally farmed dairy and this is their skillset - other forms of farming they may not be so familiar with and the costs of switching may be prohibitive. IF this isn't the case to be profitable they are forced to run mega-dairies which are controversial in their own right. Hence when an earlier poster asked how the cows were allowed to be kept in such as state the answer is probably that the farmers simply cannot afford to keep things in a decent manner.

Yet I also see the devastation that TB causes to the farmers that have to put up with it reappearing in their herd time and time again. Most of the farmers I know are sensible and decently educated people so I can't understand where widespread support for a cull comes from when there is clearly some seriously large pieces of the puzzle missing. I have also talked to some close friends who farm, again they are non dairy but they seem a bit non-plussed too...

I would love to see on here if anyone is from a dairy background and has any input on this.

Signed.

Signed.

Agree RedMolly - i'd love to see this get some more air time but like you have no idea how to go about it!

What is the National Trust's stance on this?

The NT has a tendency to sit on the fence (see their policy re hunting). I think as far as badgers go they were initially against the cull, then in 2010 changed their minds and said they would back it if certain conditions were met, but i think they are now vaccinating all the badgers on their land. Will try and find something a bit more concrete later.

So how does a badger pass TB to a cow ?

I'd be happy to pay more for a pint of milk if it meant decent standards in farming and welfare, a living wage for dairy farmers and a vaccination programme for TB instead of a cull.

TB is an airborne disease, so presumably proximity between an infected animal and uninfected ones could spread it.

frumpet the TB gets transferred when the badger sneaks into the fuel and steals the milk from the teat of the cow...

Signed and shared.

Signed.

I watched Countryfile about this on Sunday. Interesting discussion from both sides, prob on iplayer if anyone is interested.
It showed some farmers having target practice training and they were stressing how it had to be a clean shot so as to minimise suffering. But, the badgers will be moving targets. Horrible.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - I thought that was just a myth.

"So how does a badger pass TB to a cow ?"

Everyone here is talking about 'bad science' but nobody is actually describing WHY it is 'bad science'.

Someone has asked the question, and so I will answer it:

It is clearly known how this vector works. How many of you live in the countryside and know what badger shit consists of? Badgers are omnivores: therefore, their dung is remarkably similar to ours (more fibre though). Badgers make areas called 'latrines' and you will find a an area where they have dug holes and filled them.

So: what happens, is that the badgers will either visit the dairy yard because of the spilled grain fed to the cows, and sh t there, or the cows will graze the grass around the badger latrines. Either way, the cows ingest the badger sh t and become infected. Because they live in close proximity to eachother in a humid environment (cow shed), and they are already stressed by intensive lactating, they pass it on to eachother.

I do support badger culls. Not because I hate badgers or support TB cows or any other such thing. I have never ever done anything to hurt a badger. None of this is the point, in my opinion.
I support a cull because we humans have interfered so badly in the ecosystem that it is all out of balance. Badgers are at the top of the food chain (apex predators), and have been protected for years. There are simply too many of them. The impact this overpopulation has on the rest of wildlife, can no longer be ignored. Badgers have a tremendous sense of smell, and eat anything. Their over large numbers are now hurting other less sexy/cute/cuddly/fashionable species and sending them to extinction: nightingales, hedgehogs (a favourite snack), bumblebees (which nest in mouseholes, a nice little morsel of grubs and honey), ground nesting birds. I have not heard a nightingale for over 15 years, and it dawned on me the other day I haven't seen a hedgehog for some time either. We are overrun with badgers in our area (secret, and no I have never hurt them. I just observe with my eyes).

Sentimentality is not good for nature and we humans have put it out of balance. We must respect all of it, live in balance and not impose our misty eyed views on it.

(Any volunteer who doesn't want them shot, but would rather implant with contraceptives, is fine by me. But any acknowledgement that there are too many of them and other wildlife needs protecting too, has to be the first honest step).

I don't know if there are excessive amounts of badgers or not, but they are (cull outwith) a protected species; but I'd suggest some of the declines you've mentioned - honeybees, skylarks, etc, are more to do with the changes and intensification of farming methods rather than by predation by badgers.
I do agree though, that we have to live in a way that balances our needs with those of wildlife too.

Abitwobblynow, please point me to a reputable conservation organisation that agrees with you about the need for a cull of badgers to protect other wildlife. (hint, they don't).

This is not why the cull is happening.

There is no scientific concensus on the transmission routes of btb from badgers to cattle or from cattle to badgers for that matter. There are theories.

Regarding population size, even the DEFRA website states:

The relationship between bovine TB in badgers and in cattle is highly complex, and the rate of transmission between species is not in direct proportion to badger density.

For the record i live in the countryside, have done all my life, and am an ecologist by profession. I worked for a govt regulatory authority in this field and spent many years liaising between wildlife groups and farmers. Intensive farming practices have had a far more negative impact on the species you mention than badgers. I am not the save the cute furries brigade. Culling does not work, and the tax payer is expected to foot the bill.

Signed. Will link on FB again too.

I'll sign too, though I don't think petitions ever help
But the cull is so utterly wrong, I've seen no evidence at all to let this go ahead.

Abitwobblynow As Beamur correctly said there are many many reasons why species are struggling - intensive farming and loss of habitat in countryside, increasing use of pesticides and climate change. The later is affecting our seasons which in turn is affecting many food sources and hibernation patterns.
If Badgers are so supposedly riddled with TB in vast numbers, surely a helluva lot will be dying from the disease, no? If that is the case no need to worry about excessive overpopulation then...

Have also just read on DEFRAs website there is a drop of TB reactors in cattle in the last 6 months in comparison to last year.

The petition is now over 91000. Not many more needed to generate a debate in parliament. Come on folks!

signed.

It's a bit rich of human beings to try to blame badgers for the decline in hedgehogs and other species. It's our fault. The decline in hedgehog numbers is (no-one's sure of the exact reason) probably down to factors such as the environment - farming practices and in urban/suburban areas, less shelter and the popularity of decking, so they can't cross from area to area as they used to.

Wow thats good RedMolly, and all in about 1 week...

At least if the debate is booked for a ridiculous time in the house (i.e when most MPs aren't there) it does really show how many people are opposed.

Ony another 2500ish signatures needed, that's gone so quickly!

100,777 reached

Great! Might get letter writing to my MP too, I think she would be the sort to ask awkward (but in this case common sense) questions in the commons.

Good thinking Jammy
During our campaign in Pembs, we had an AM called Peter Black (Lib Dem) at the Welsh Assembly on our side. He attended quite a few of our meetings and verbally pummelled the Agricultural Minister at every opportunity, it really made a hell of a difference.

Great stuff. There is a template letter on the Wildlife Trusts site if that helps anyone:

www.wildlifetrusts.org/badgers-and-bovineTB

http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2010/09/15/control-bovine-tb/

I think this sums it up well, I agree with the cull and also think there are too many badgers.

The petition has helped and it has assisted in getting a debate in Parliament today.

Just heard that the cull has been postponed for a year!

Good, good, but where did you hear that? I thought announcement not till 12.30.

Fear farmers will privately kill anyway- have heard 90% of 'roadkill' badgers killed and later dumped.

It was on R4 news. There was an Archers storyline a few years ago when David Archer was prosecuted for dispatching and dumping a badger - so hard to prove who was responsible in rl unfortunately.

I also heard on the news that the cull has been postponed for a year. And then somebody came on and said that didn't mean it wouldn't happen. But I expect it won't happen in a year's time. I don't agree with culling.

Well. We got the debate. The vote was overwhelming! Just a shame it is not legally binding, but let's hope it is the beginning of the end of the road for the cull, and everyone can unite behind developing a workable vaccination programme.

My husband has lost over a third of his dairy herd to badgers. Having seen a badger close up, in one of cattle buildings, they are viscous and far from cuddly. DH has 12 badger sets on his farm. The countryside is overrun with badgers. Not seen a hedgehog for years.

I am pro cull.

Did anyone say they were cuddly?

Oohlaalaa firstly hello fellow dairy farmer, we are lucky that we are tb free at the moment but I have seen the deverstation tb has caused, I no a farmer who has killed himself because he lost everything. And I agree something needs to be done!