Police Officer killed during arrest

(262 Posts)
AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 12:38:27
marquesas Tue 18-Sep-12 12:43:32

The BBC are reporting injuries only

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19635239

Let's hope Sky are wrong

AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 12:45:01

I hope sky are wrong then

fingers crossed

StinkyPig Tue 18-Sep-12 12:47:16

sad

The police are heros. It really annoys me when they get slated. They put their lives on the line daily to protect us and catch scum like this.

Thinking of the family. So sad.

AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 12:48:41

BBC have confirmed the death sad

VicarInaTutu Tue 18-Sep-12 13:10:19

oh great. sad

this job is pants. it is dangerous, we deal with things everyday which are unique - i saved someones life yesterday, and now today hear this.

and the people who make the decisions, the government, are making this job more and more unsafe day by day - our numbers on our shift are shocking

if you need specialist services like firearms or tazer they are often no where near.

the police service is being decimated.

may the pc that died rest in peace and my thoughts are with both of those officers families today.
it could be anyone of us.

Thank god u are ok Vicar. You were first person I thought of when I heard the news.

So sad for officers involved though sad

Hoping the other officer pulls through. sad

RIP.

AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 13:18:48

I hope you are ok Vicar

AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 13:22:44

The other officer is fighting for her life sad

I really hope she pulls through

ziggers Tue 18-Sep-12 13:28:08

I work in Tameside so this feels close to home. It's just so sad, my thoughts are with the families of the police officers involved and also all the police in Tameside at this difficult time.

Timeforabiscuit Tue 18-Sep-12 13:28:17

An absolute and tragic loss, hope her partner pulls through. At least he's in custody, but I'd hate being an officer outside his cell.

bureni Tue 18-Sep-12 13:29:42

Its about time that English police were armed, the level of violence the police have to deal with merits this imo. Also time the courts stopped pussy footing around and handed out proper sentences and stopped tying police officers hands behind their back with the joke human rights act.

VicarInaTutu Tue 18-Sep-12 13:31:08

im ok thanks guys, - im just going to do my stint in a minute. Things like this just bring home the stark realities of the job.

i NC but popped back as "me" for this thread. thank you for the concern, im fine.

see you all later.

niceguy2 Tue 18-Sep-12 13:35:29

Its about time that English police were armed, the level of violence the police have to deal with merits this imo.

Personally I'm on the fence about this one. But I do know though that the first time someone gets accidentally shot as a result of routine arming, the press will have a field day.

Not sure we're ready for the inevitable innocents being shot. Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago in New York where the police accidentally shot more people than the suspect they were trying to shoot? Does anyone actually want that here?

Maybe it's about time though that our officers were all given tasers. That may be a good compromise. Not sure it would have helped here. Too little information at the moment but it does make you wonder if the officers knew who they were dealing with? I suspect they didn't. sad

Second officer has died sad

AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 13:40:30

Oh no sad

bureni Tue 18-Sep-12 13:40:56

Niceguy, the PSNI are armed 24/7 with a sidearm and/or light machine guns this includes female officers on and off duty. People tend to show the police a lot more respect when they are armed plus it is a good deterrent, this is the reason why N.I has the lowest crime rate in the U.K plus they have access to superior equipment including proper riot control gear. Police officers should not be put in a situation where they cannot defend themselves and as such should have access to deadly force which is basically what they have to face on a daily basis.

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 13:42:26

FUCK sad

and no no NO to police being armed

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 13:43:36

STay safe Vicar xx

(DH is a cop, just about to leave, for all the all-too-obvious reasons)

sad

bureni Tue 18-Sep-12 13:43:49

Jodie, they already are in N.I so why not the rest of the U.K where the crime rate is higher?

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 18-Sep-12 13:44:40

The man that did it had grenades and guns.
Even they had been armed I don't think it would have helped.
I've just heard the other woman pc has died too.
So shocking.

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 13:44:41

all the obvious reasons bureni - you will have heard the argument before so no need for me to go into it.

Theresa May 'This is a deeply shocking incident and a terrible reminder of the risks that police officers face every day to keep our communities safe." angry

PoppyWearer Tue 18-Sep-12 13:45:00

Just awful.

But I still don't believe our police should be armed.

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 13:45:07

And by the way ROFL at the idea of NI being a model of law-and-order.

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 13:46:02

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

bureni Tue 18-Sep-12 13:48:36

Jodie, N.I has the lowest crime rate in the U.K by a clean mile which proves that arming police does work.

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 13:49:13

No, no really. Correlation does not equal causation blah blah.

chipstick10 Tue 18-Sep-12 13:51:10

saying someone can DIE is pretty nasty imho. shock

WinklyFriedChicken Tue 18-Sep-12 13:51:24

Let's not have this thread.descend into a bunfight about arming officers.

Two women have put themselves out there for the public and been murdered. Tragic.

Thumbwitch Tue 18-Sep-12 13:52:06

That's awful. sad

But I agree that arming the police is not necessarily the way to go, it can just escalate violence. Armed police in Australia don't reduce gun crime.

Doyouthinktheysaurus Tue 18-Sep-12 13:52:09

What a tragedysad

The Police have such a tough job, this is absolutely shocking!

bureni, if NI was safe how comes police officers over there are not supposed to tell neighbours their job because of the risk & English officers are warned not to bring their warrant cards over/tell NI people their jobs?

chipstick, the changes she's forcing through will mean Police deaths increase...she can go play in traffic for all I care.

Anyway, don't think this is the right thread to go into it, hope the families didn't have to find out via the news.

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 13:53:28

Yes, true chipstick. It's a saying, not a genuine wish, but a thoughless one.

She is, however, evil to the bone, and personally responsible for the decimation of the police force, the destruction of the morale of police officers nationwide, putting the public's safety at risk and, ultimately, endangering the lives of countless police officers.

Die is too strong but by God I'd see that woman in the stocks.

Winkly also is right. APols for derailing.

teejwood Tue 18-Sep-12 13:54:44

bureni NI's low crime rate can't be linked to guns imho; it is a combination of more rural population/slightly more deferential society (though that has changed a lot over the years) and the fact certain communities self-police/certain groups control the criminal activity that does occur which inevitably has an impact on recorded levels of crime.

Personally I would rather have more unarmed police (in suitable protective clothing) than fewer police with guns.

Vicar so pleased you are OK - it is dreadful these wpc's have died and my thoughts go out to their families.

Fwiw - the alleged murderer handed himself in after shooting the officers. He was not arrested until he had handed himself in. Anyone else think he did this to protect himself?

The helicopters are over my house and the road that they keep showing as ROAD CLOSED i have to drive down to get my son. The poor officers and their families, absolutely tragic. It was reported as a routine call to a disturbance. I don't live on the estate but it was an empty house we pass most days between my mum's and mine.

Terrible day.

niceguy2 Tue 18-Sep-12 13:56:13

Bureni, personally speaking I'd be ok with an armed police force. But I know many (including a lot of officers) wouldn't want it.

Part of my job means I travel to many countries and I've yet to see one outside of the UK where police are not armed. It certainly would bring a lot of benefits in terms of deterrence. I agree on that.

My hesitation is really because like I say, as a nation I don't think we're ready for it because of the way we seem to pillory officers for decisions they had a split second to make. Remember the De Mendez case? Duggan? I just don't think it's fair to give the police a gun then string them up when they use it in good faith but later find out it's a genuine mistake.

As a nation we don't support the police enough. Back when I lived in the US, one of the things I really took away was the genuine respect your average american had for law enforcement & armed forces. Something sorely lacking in this country.

It's so sad to hear this. Especially as a close friend of mine is also a police officer. You sort of know this is a risk but this sort of incident really brings the dangers home.

Narked Tue 18-Sep-12 13:57:20

Read what else he's been arrested for. The poor police officers were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

creighton Tue 18-Sep-12 13:57:35

he handed himself in because he has nowhere to hide now. no one to protect him. this is the guy who threw a hand grenade into a house a few weeks ago isn't he and killed somone?

AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 13:59:53

If anyone wants a bun fight can they take it elsewhere. Two women went to work this morning and they won't be coming home

creighton Tue 18-Sep-12 14:01:05

niceguy2 people respect the law and the police but don't automatically respect police officers who they think are not behaving correctly.

these murders are rare, thank goodness, we don't need the police to be armed. the criminals will see it as and excuse for shootouts in the street.

teejwood Tue 18-Sep-12 14:01:29

creighton yes, that's what I was getting at - nowhere to hide now, police probably would have been given carte blanche to use all possible means to protect themselves (using guns) while arresting a man who was armed, dangerous and didn't give a shit who he hurt.

AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 14:01:48

He was wanted in connection with the murder of a father and son.

MissMogwi Tue 18-Sep-12 14:02:59

Absolutely awful. Poor, poor women and their families and colleagues.

VicarInaTutu Tue 18-Sep-12 14:03:04

Theresa May can go swivel as far as im concerned.

and no to us being armed - i wouldnt want that at all - id leave. there are armed response officers - that should be enough if we had use of them but they are now usually tied up with routine work cos there are not enough of the rest of us

short memories - the riots started cos of an armed incident. (even though on the news today it is confirmed that he had the gun when he was shot - it makes no difference - when the police shoot people public opinion turns against the police)

i would not want arming. if i wanted arming id go into armed response.
anyway.

very sad to learn of the second officers death. how awful for their families and colleagues. sad

right. really off now....gonna be late.

WinklyFriedChicken Tue 18-Sep-12 14:03:32

Every single day, but for the grace of god, that could be me, or dh, or any number of close personal friends. This has really thrown me today.

VicarInaTutu Tue 18-Sep-12 14:05:06

nb - any routine job can go tits up in seconds - we often go and do routine arrest attempts without any back up.

not sure of the back story so wont even begin to speculate....but its horrendous.

meditrina Tue 18-Sep-12 14:05:06

They have now announced with sadness that the second officer has died.

It seem the event (possibly involving a grenade) came out of nowhere during a routine call on an ordinary patrol. They where not involved in the hunt for Creegan (who has handed himself in now), and it seems they encountered him by bad luck.

ShobGiteTheKnid Tue 18-Sep-12 14:06:27

sad

bassetfeet Tue 18-Sep-12 14:07:11

Awful news and my heart goes out to the officers and their families .
Stay safe Vicar ............I always read your posts with great respect before your name change .

Agree that this govt are decimating the police forces and causing great stress on the service and our officers on the front line .
Have family member in the force and am horrified at the lack of numbers on shift ....and the awful people they have to deal with so often .
Whether arming our officers would make it safer ? I just dont know ..
so sad .

bureni Tue 18-Sep-12 14:07:25

Niceguy 100% agree that the police need more public support and a lot more support from the government who tie their hands behind their backs. Personally I support my police force in any way I can, they are a brilliant bunch of people who deserve our utmost respect at all times. Like yourself I know a few police officers and have also lost a family member due to gun crime while serving with the police.
This thug is a total coward who is now seeking the protection of the police after he shot 2 of their officers, I would like to see him try that in some other countries where the police and legal system was less tolerant.

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 14:12:05

Heh. You're right there Bureni - says a lot about our polive force that he knows he'd be safer in the custody of the friends and colleagues of the women he murdered.

So, so dreadful. I have lived in terror of getting THe Call for eight years now, and thank God come November I needn't fear it anymore.

Donkeysdontridebicycles Tue 18-Sep-12 14:12:43

Dreadful news, so sorry for their families.

DogsCock Tue 18-Sep-12 14:15:04

terribly sad news.

EldritchCleavage Tue 18-Sep-12 14:15:14

This is dreadful, and I agree the suspect most likely handed himself in for self-protection.

More pressing than whether to arm police is the question of police numbers. I think we were already under-policed (in sheer numbers terms) before the Tory cuts and I cannot see how policing can possibly do all the things the politicians say they want it to do if numbers are reduced further.

It does not seem that greater police numbers would necessarily have made a difference to this terrible incident, but shouldn't we want the officers who do serve to feel adequately supported?

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 14:19:57

Eldritch - this was a revealing piece: [[http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/10/frontline-police-jobs-cut-election?newsfeed=true 6,800 front-line police officer posts have been lost since the general election]

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 14:20:27
EldritchCleavage Tue 18-Sep-12 14:24:53

Thanks, Jodie, it was interesting.

TribbleTuckandDismount Tue 18-Sep-12 14:39:25

How sad sad.

My thoughts are with their families.

NoBloodyMore Tue 18-Sep-12 14:40:51

He handed himself in but they think he's left grenades in a vehicle near the police station, it's awful armed police everywhere, bomb disposal units. He's absolute scum shooting at 2 unarmed officers who weren't even Looking for him. RIP to the 2 policewomen involved

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 14:42:56

As a serving police officer of 17 years and a mum of two, I am very sad today and I do not want to hear Theresa May's views on how valuable the Police Service is. angry

EldritchCleavage Tue 18-Sep-12 14:43:09

Probably one of those repellent 'legend-in-his-own-head' twats like Raoul Whatsit who shot poor David Rathband. He will swagger about loving the reputation he gets from all this mayhem.

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 14:45:16

And despite this tragedy and despite the Government ripping the arse out of our pensions, I will keep doing the job I love. But if we were routinely armed I would quit in a heartbeat!

Terrible. RIP to the two officers sad

I personally am glad that the police aren't armed. Not because I think it would result in more shootings, but because I like to think that as a society our gun toting scum criminals are the exception rather than the norm. I realise this makes me idealistic and naive.

SharonGless Tue 18-Sep-12 15:01:38

Rip to my brave colleagues. Two more stars shine brightly tonight girls. Too upset to post more but Vicar, Jodie's DH and others about to start their shift stay safe

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 15:07:01

Thanks Sharon. You too thanks

meditrina Tue 18-Sep-12 15:07:10

From what they are saying about the incident, I do not think it could have been anticipated/prevented even with the most highly resourced police force. Cuts may be a subject worthy of debate, but it doesn't appear on news released so far to be relevant to this event.

sad

JodieHarsh Tue 18-Sep-12 15:11:50

My husband has just posted on FB regarding this incident. I won't cut and paste directly but - there are a lot of calls citing firearms as a factor. The protocol would normally state that only armed police should respond. However, there are not enough. So they have to do a kind of risk analysis and determine whether it is indeed a real thread of an armed incident or one of the (many) mistakes or hoaxes. If the latter, unarmed police (such as my DH) will attend.

He has attended many which he ought not to have done. One one occasion, he had to beg to be allowed to take riot squad officers with him to arrest a man known to be dangerous. His Sgt made it very clear he thought DH rather cowardly, not going on his own, but in the end conceded, and a team went with him,

It is good they did, since there was an acid attack (on the news at the time) and 17 officers ended up in hospital. If DH had gone alone, the very best outcome would have been total blindness and years of facial reconstruction surgery.

Of course, effective funding if police posts will not guarantee total safety for all. but make no mistake: this event could be prevented if the police were adequately funded, and had not lost 6,800 posts since the Tories came to power.

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 15:16:19

Meditrina - this may have been prevented if GMP had been able to dedicate enough resources to arrest this man in the last few weeks that he has been on the run!

It is relevant.

NoBloodyMore Tue 18-Sep-12 15:45:02

I don't think GMP had a hope of catching him, they're under resourced and he's one of the main gang leaders in one of the big gangs up this way his so called friends would never have revealed his whereabouts. He was also in a completely different area than they were expecting so there was no reason to believe the officers were in danger. The bastard had wired his car up as well they've just carried out a controlled explosion.

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 15:54:36

I'm just watching the news conference and having to distract my children with CBeebies so that they don't worry about mummy every time I go to work. sad

NoBloodyMore Tue 18-Sep-12 15:57:10

He phoned & reported a burglary from that address and then shot the officers dead when they arrived. Utter utter bastard

He is scum. Utter fucking scum. Deliberately did this to satisfy
His own fantasies of being "a legend". Bastard. Why did you do this? Hasn't this area got enough bad connections without more area holes like you bringing it back down.

RIP Fiona and Nicola, you did not deserve this, two officers doing your job. The whole area mourns you along with your colleagues. The church overlooking the scene is flying it's flag at half mast.

I would like to add this everyone knew that Cregan was on the estate and GMP
Making out they didn't know is bs. The chopper has been up over and over again in the search for him. Morning, noon and night.

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 16:09:12

The Chief Constable made reference to some people's view of 'Folk Heroes' involved in this type of shooting. As Edithcleavage said he was no-doubt seeking this type of notoriety. How sick is that.

TribbleTuckandDismount Tue 18-Sep-12 16:09:35

NoBloodyMore Seriously?! Thats horrid, those poor officers and their families.

sad What an utterly disgusting person.

The officers & staff in the custody suite must all be sitting on their hands.

Giving all the other MN Job families massive unMN ((hugs)).

RIP PC Hughes & PC Bone. A candle will be lit for you both here tonight.

Ninjahobbit Tue 18-Sep-12 16:16:50

Ive just found out the news

RIP to those poor officers and what a horrid thing for the families to go through sad

NoBloodyMore Tue 18-Sep-12 16:17:23

Oscar his mum and sister live on the estate and they've raided several addresses on Hattersley the police seemed to think he'd only been there overnight, I suppose they must get loads of routine burglary reports and it just wouldnt be practical to send armed officers to them all. The people who've been hiding him should be utterly ashamed but I suspect they're scumbags from the same mould as him

I Know but the press Conference just tried to make out that GMP had no idea he was connected to the estate!

Whoever had been harbouring him are
Just as bad as him.

We just drive past the cordon on our way home. It's just so bloody awful. Those officers deserved to go home tonight.

BlackberryIce Tue 18-Sep-12 16:26:35

How awful!

I left the force years ago, my dad says it was one of the happiest days of his life. Ge hated me in that job, worry, worry, worry.

Just horrible, feel for their families.

susiedaisy Tue 18-Sep-12 16:29:15

What an fucking absolute bastard!! Feel so sad for the two officers and their families sad

NoBloodyMore Tue 18-Sep-12 16:29:16

We're near the police station, still bomb disposal experts all over his car, I really hope that's the end of all this gang war now but I doubt it.

Nbm please stay safe. Have they let the college pupils out yet?

Sadly I doubt this will be the end of gang warfare. The idiots in gangs respect shit like this and will carry on.

AGoldenOrange Tue 18-Sep-12 16:33:21

What an evil bastard. Let's just hope that there is a special place in hell waiting for him

NoBloodyMore Tue 18-Sep-12 16:36:33

As far as I know the cordon ends before the college and it was evacuated this aft, as was the day nursery facing it, the car is near the park entrance

bleedingheart Tue 18-Sep-12 16:49:20

Cowardly evil bastard! What is heroic about luring two unarmed officers to their deaths? He didn't 'best' them in a gunfight, he ambushed them.
I am so sorry for the families and colleagues of these brave young women and so sad for the law-abiding citizens living amongst these gangs.

You can't pay the police enough in my eyes, the bravery every day, never knowing what they face, unbelievable.

EldritchCleavage Tue 18-Sep-12 17:02:25

I do think it is important not to focus on him too much, even for the purposes of denigrating him. People like him do thrive on notoriety and condemnation. He's nothing really. I'd like to hear more instead about the officers who died-who they were. I remember thinking the same when Sharon Beshenivsky (spelling?) was killed.

I worry about my dh every time he goes to work, I never know if something will happen, if he will come home again.

My thoughts are with their families.

As for Cregan, he's lower than scum.

ColouringIn Tue 18-Sep-12 17:40:26

You know what? I have always been against the arming of police officers but I am leaning more and more the other way. Two women have died just because they happened to be doing their jobs, they were not armed and there is no indication they made any threats. This nasty scumbag faked a burglary call and then cold bloodedly murdered them both.
I can't stop thinking about their families tonight....and as for him.....I don't believe there is wide scale police brutality but let's hope he bangs his head once or twice in the next few days and weeks. Not nice of me but then he is not a nice person.....scumbag.

Horrific news.

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 18:09:16

I don't agree with you on either count colouring - routine arming of police would not save the lives of officers in a planned ambush such as this. I also do not agree that meting out 'summary justice' will not serve anyone well and will only serve to reinforce the view in certain circles that this man is some sort of folk-hero.

SecretCermonials Tue 18-Sep-12 18:12:25

Im so so saddened to hear these poor women have been killed in the line of their duty, its unfair and the person who did this just highlights the scum that seems to dominate the headlines.
RIP to two brave officers, and thank you to all of you who are police officers or are in the services / forces. And also my thoughts are with your families it must be hard for them too.

I hope the "man" that did this is punished

ColouringIn Tue 18-Sep-12 18:16:12

It's an emotional response .....he is a scumbag and if he were to fall in front of a train tomorrow he'd do everyone a favour.

I am so pacifist and anti death penalty, anti guns etc but this has made me so angry today.

Maybe tomorrow I'll feel more rational....doubt the families of these two officers will though.

MOSagain Tue 18-Sep-12 18:22:14

So very sad reading the news today and my thoughts are with those officers and their familes sad

I was a police officer for 7 years before a bastard in a stolen car decided he would rather run me over than be nicked for the theft. I spent 10 weeks in hospital, my spine is now held together with metal pins and I had to leave the job I loved. Ironically, he got a longer sentence for the drugs he had on him at the time of his arrest than he did for running me over hmm

Be that as it may, I do not believe that all police officers should be armed. I think if I was still in the job and all officers were armed I would leave.

PanofOlympus Tue 18-Sep-12 18:23:16

Ihave no idea where you get your info from, Oscar, but the police have been keeping up a presence and search-parties all over Tameside, esp. Droylesden, and a bit of Beswick. I see them massing sometimes first thing in the morning at Mottram round-a-bout.

You will know how big Hattersley estate is, and the fact Creggan could be 'on the estate' means probably thousands of acres and tens of thousands of homes. I also have no idea why you are implying that GMP are being dishonest.

The back story briefly is that for about 10 years there has been a family/gang feud bewteen the Shorts and another family 'supported' by Creggan and others. Organised crime is the root of the dispute and why it suddenly flared up with multiple tragic consequences.

PanofOlympus Tue 18-Sep-12 18:24:47

Arming police? The police (at all grades) don't want it and have repeatedly said so.

AmberLeaf Tue 18-Sep-12 18:33:35

What a bastard. They didn't stand a chance. sad

SharonGless Tue 18-Sep-12 18:37:18

I personally would leave the job before I would carry a firearm. It isn't what I signed up to do.
I hope those who assisted him are also brought to justice.
Pan, spot on

I can't watch news with DC as I already have a child with anxieties _this would tip him over the edge.
Many colleagues are seriously considering their future in the police, especially as the terms and conditions have changed since we signed up

RIP tonight Fiona and Nicola-gone but never forgotten

PanofOlympus Tue 18-Sep-12 18:41:39

Sharon -I was also a PC years ago, and I would never have joined up if they were going to give me a gun. Giving PCs guns may well attract the wrong crowd into the police service.My small wooden baton, a big torch and a willingness to be reasonable with people were the best 'weapons' imho.

SharonGless Tue 18-Sep-12 18:44:48

Yup, totally with you there.
We police by consent, not force.
The police in USA are armed, has that improved the gun situation? Think not.

I have 18 years in and have seen some truly awful things including having a firearm pulled on me. I am one of the fortunate ones, I am home to ought with my family

Pan they said it on the GMP press conference. That's why I called BS.

PanofOlympus Tue 18-Sep-12 18:51:41

Oscar - I've seen the press conferences - the reference by the Chief Constable was that they had no intelligence about that particular address - no reports, no reason to suspect it - it hadn't appeared on any way on the enquiry. He didn't say Creggan had no connection to the estate - that would have been a lie.

mumof3teens Tue 18-Sep-12 19:56:01

Terrible terrible news - DS1 is a Dr at Tameside hospital where they took one of the girls. So sad.

ColouringIn Tue 18-Sep-12 20:07:50

I made a very emotional response earlier.....fwiw, I hear what people are saying and agree that arming police would not have prevented the situation today...so so sad though. Those poor women, and their poor families.

TribbleTuckandDismount Tue 18-Sep-12 20:22:52

The police don't need to be armed in this country, Tasers maybe. Not guns though, its a tough enough job as it is. It wouldn't have changed today, they were ambushed going to what was supposed to be a routine call. I think I read on BBC news that the house had been empty for a few months (this may have been said by a witness, but please don't quote me on that one).

We shouldn't focus on the coward who shot them, we should focus on those women and the people that go to work everyday to police our streets who often go into situations that would make grown men weep.

scottishmummy Tue 18-Sep-12 20:24:53

just heard this
condolences to family,colleagues friends
police it's a hard job,and today just made it wee bit harder

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 20:28:11

colouring your emotional response was understandable in the circumstances. thanks

SharonGless Tue 18-Sep-12 20:34:29

Colouring - no offence taken. There are men and women
Up and down the country who share your sentiments.
I believe the net was closing in and he was desperate therefore wanted to go out with a bang. He will have more kudos in prison being a "cop
Killer" sad
Where does it all stop?

Online book of Condolence set up by GMP.

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 18-Sep-12 21:13:53

Will he really have kudos in prison for killing two young women in cold blood Sharon?
Surely even most prisoners would think that was beyond the pale?

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 21:21:21

Thanks AWCH

SharonGless Tue 18-Sep-12 21:32:28

Thanks for linking - posted mine earlier
Unfortunately within certain sections of prison societies then yes he will

scottishmummy Tue 18-Sep-12 21:34:43

unfortunately for a particular grop individuals there will be kudos
no honour amongst crims
plenty thugs hough

Lifeisontheup Tue 18-Sep-12 21:56:38

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of these two officers and with all police officers everywhere. sad It looks like it was a hoax call purely designed to lure them into a trap, pure evil.

Without the police I wouldn't be able to do my job, they watch my back and are always there when we need them, supporting,protecting and helping us.

ColouringIn Tue 18-Sep-12 22:08:30

I have so much time for police officers, without a doubt they are used and abused yet still they are when we need them. This has really affected me today.....and tonight when I was bemoaning a bit of a stressy day I actually stopped myself and thought about it...I rapidly got a grip on my so called stressy day.

It's horrific to think this man will have any kudos for gunning down two unarmed women in such a cold blooded and premeditated way.

Plomino Tue 18-Sep-12 22:23:24

Well , I'm going to be the one going against the grain. Because I would carry a gun if told to . I certainly wouldn't leave . I have had colleagues shot on my own team . I still remember the day like it was yesterday . Today brought it all back .

Armed response is always TOO far away . Even in London . God knows how long it takes our county colleagues to get help , but I know that waiting for it even in Central London feels like a fucking eternity . Out there in the sticks , it really is. How many colleagues shot dead or seriously injured were on routine calls ? Sharon beshevnisky , to a panic alarm . Patrick Dunne delivering a message ? David Rathband , parked on a roundabout ? It's always the routine calls where we get seriously hurt , because they're the ones we never send armed response to .

Fuck that . I'm sorry , I'm fucking furious because I've just been listening to the platitudes from those wankers in government saying how special we all are , so to convey their thanks, they're going to fuck up my pension, make me chase fuckers like that murdering bastard when I'm 60 , treat me like any other employee , but without any other employees rights . Well , no . I'm planning an exit strategy , and then they can take the cost of turning me into a very highly trained and professional police officer , and shove it up their arse . Then they can fuck off some more .

PanofOlympus Tue 18-Sep-12 22:32:46

I think 'kudos' is the wrong word in response from other inmates. There may be a teeny number who will want to be associated with him. Certainly fear, as one doesn't operate in he world he has without being practiced in terror. (some of the incidents associated with this 'fued' are utterly barbaric re bodily harm, and Creggan will no doubt be involved in some of them). He will very probably be housed far away from Manchester after sentence.
He won't see the light of day ever again, which means for the prison authorities, he has nothing to lose.

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 22:47:52

Plomino I understand your anger. Our views differ in some respects, but I totally agree about government platitudes in the face of what they are doing to the police service.

I didn't think this would affect my determination to do my job until I realised I had to explain a bit about the risks to my 6 year old daughter (as she is bound to pick up something about this). It made me wonder whether it is all worth it - for the first time ever.

Plomino Tue 18-Sep-12 22:55:53

We were at the dinner table tonight , when this came on . Tonight , my DD said to me ' I don't want you to get shot Mummy ' at bed time . Can I , in all honesty , say it won't ?

They could have been any one of us . Any one at all . I've done the routine calls that have turned out anything but. I've been that person hanging on for dear life to a door handle, stopping the screaming knife wielding suspect from getting loose . So have so so many of us . How can I say it will never ever happen to me ? DH retired last year , but even he gave me a huge hug tonight and said ' please be careful ' . This from my hardened cynical , non emotional DH .

This is just horrible. What disgusting, evil thing to do. To actually lure police officers there just to kill them? Those poor women and their families, friends and colleagues. No one should go to work and never come home again, no matter what they do.

But I don't want to see routinely armed police on our streets. I don't the UK to become like the USA, which I fear it would. The criminals who don't already use guns would simply upgrade I think and more officers and civilians would end up dead or injured. I might be wrong, I don't know.

I'm in West Yorks where POs John Speed, Ian Broadhurst and Sharon Beshenevsky were shot dead and I knew - although not well - Special Constable Glenn Goodman who was shot dead by the IRA in North Yorks in 1992. He was a very nice man who just wanted to give his kids the best life he could so became a SPC in the hope of becoming a PC. I've never forgotten how shocking all those incidents were to our whole community. Ian Broadhurst was based at my local police station and it was just horrifying that something so awful happened so close. I still remember seeing the flag at the station at half mast and thinking that he'd arrived there that morning and had just gone out doing his job. Just horrific.

Sorry that was long and rambly. RIP brave officers.

vigglewiggle Tue 18-Sep-12 23:13:37

Busters- I believe I walk your beat! Ian Broadhurst worked at my station. The community support at these terrible times means everything.

ladygoingGaga Tue 18-Sep-12 23:16:18

I've been brought to tears today on hearing the news, I was just shocked beyond belief.
I've not let my DS watch TV tonight, I won't put the radio on tomorrow morning in the car as I drive him to the CM, before I turn up dutifully for work in my uniform.
I can not protect him forever, so I am preparing some comforting words for when he hears about it, I will of course tell him mummy will be fine, she won't ever be hurt.
For the first time in my career, I don't believe that, i have no idea what I will walk into everyday and I don't have the faith my colleagues will be there when I need them as the thin blue line is near invisible.

Plomino Tue 18-Sep-12 23:36:26

And why do we always get compared to the US ? Why not compare us to , let's say , all the other armed European police officers , who seem to do ok? The French are armed , as are the Spanish , Italian officers . Even that hotbed of crime and disorder , Switzerland . Don't get me wrong , I wouldn't voluntarily apply to become an armed officer , but if it came right down to it , and everyone was , then yes I would carry a firearm . Better that than have my kids at my graveside , because armed response were 30 seconds too late .

I still have my calm response ( honest ! ) , I can still talk ninety percent of angry people down , but the criminals , and yes they are criminals, not 'custody clients ' are becoming more violent . To each other , to the public, and to us .

iffysquiffy Tue 18-Sep-12 23:42:10

What a terribly sad day for everyone concerned. I couldn't agree more with comments about Theresa May, she makes me sick. Two young girls go out to work and their lives ended by this violent unthinkable act. My heart goes out to their families and their colleagues.

scurryfunge Tue 18-Sep-12 23:43:35

Just finished a late shift. A very sad day. RIP brave officers.

suburbophobe Tue 18-Sep-12 23:49:18

N.I has the lowest crime rate in the U.K

Well, that's debatable of course... (but let's not get into that now).

Yes, so sad to hear of this and still don't understand why the British police are not armed when called out.

(Also don't understand when they are, as in the case that started the London riots, or the Brazilian that got shot in the underground).

Crazy world we live in.

scurryfunge Tue 18-Sep-12 23:55:45

Suburbophobe - those killed would have been killed whether armed or not. You can't always plan for someone intent on killing regardless.

VicarInaTutu Wed 19-Sep-12 00:06:35

also home safe and sound having just finished my late shift - no meal break though and im knackered.

ive not yet read any news but i suspected he did this for the status it would give him in prison. taking out a few of the 'enemy' will give him status. and he had nothing to lose

fwiw, every week, i and my colleagues go to incidents where firearms are mentioned, and every week, our 'force incident manager assess the risk from his nice chair in the office and sends us to "assess in the first instance".....this could have been any single one of us serving officers today. it could be us tomorrow. i hope the policy of sending unarmed officers to reported firearms incidents will now change. i went to a very similar incident last week - gun shots reported - FIM assessed and let 2 unarmed and single crewed cars go to "asses"

this has to stop. The FIM isnt the one on the end of a potential gun.

VicarInaTutu Wed 19-Sep-12 00:22:14

oh just seen it was reports of burglary.....sad i thought they were responding to sounds of gun shots.

i cant see how anyone could safeguard against what happened - we respond to reports of burglary every day. You never think you are going to get shot doing it.

they only had a bit more service in than me.....pause for thought there, and they were so young.

so sad

Narked Wed 19-Sep-12 00:32:40

Is it not possible that someone was trying to show the police to where the man was hiding by giving a false crime report? Is it definite that they were lured there to be attacked? It's vile beyond belief.

scurryfunge Wed 19-Sep-12 00:39:16

Narked, who knows what the motivation for the call was.

Hello Viggle I thank you for it. I really do. You do a job I couldn't do. And I'll never forget seeing that flag at half mast. Thanks for being there for us xx

Narked Wed 19-Sep-12 00:58:06

If that really was premeditated it's the kind of thing that I could support a death penalty for. To deliberately kill police officers is an attack on society as well as the murder of innocent human beings. If that isn't addressed then the whole system falls down and no-one is safe.

VicarInaTutu Wed 19-Sep-12 01:00:57

ive signed the book of condolence. may they both rest in peace and i wish their family, friends and colleagues the strength to get through the coming weeks and months.

(have to say i am wondering what pic of me my lot have got of me for such events....hope it wasnt a bad hair day....)

Tiredtrout Wed 19-Sep-12 04:51:48

It's terrible news, I'm so sorry for the rest of their shift along with their friends and family. It doesn't sound like them being armed or not would have made any difference.

Both of the officers looked so young it's just a waste.

He seems a very cowardly man to have done this

ColouringIn Wed 19-Sep-12 06:29:23

I signed the book of condolence too...am glad that has been set up and I hope it gives their families some comfort in the future.

I am so grateful to our police officers in this country and so sad about yesterday. It makes all the crap about pensions and employment benefits even more pertinent now. Why should these men and women have their employment benefits slashed when they are going out to such danger. Let's be honest, it could have been anyone on shift at that station yesterday.

Will the public get behind the police now in their fight to secure their pensions. Sadly I fear the response will be "not bloody likely".

All I hope for Cregan is that he comes to know the enormity of what he has done and then lives with the horror of it in his heart and mind. There would be o better consequence because how could you love with yourself knowing you had done such a terrible thing.

SunWukong Wed 19-Sep-12 10:07:17

I hope this doesn't lead to some stupid knee jerking, shit happens. You can't change that, no amount of tazers, guns etc can account for the fact that every so often shit happens that no one was expecting.

MissMogwi Wed 19-Sep-12 10:15:08

I hardly think 'shit happens' is an appropriate response.

I live in the Tameside area, and do not want any knee jerk reactions to this.

However, it is an appalling crime, committed by a despicable thug, and people are rightly horrified and understandably questioning the system.

TunaPastaBake Wed 19-Sep-12 10:23:25

'Shit happens ' hmm

Good one SuWuKong - I bet that will give the officers families some comfort - 'ah well shit happens - anyone for a cup of tea' tosser

I really dont think many if any police leave their homes in the morning not expecting to return. It is absolutely horrific what has happened to the police officers and their families have my total and utter sympathy. But I dont think the police should be armed and I dont think many police want to be either.

`Shit happens` what a moronic statement.

SunWukong Wed 19-Sep-12 10:53:22

Not moronic, just the truth, same applies to all, if you drive alot you may be involved in a accident because shit happens, if you join the army you may get killed because shit happens.

Same applies for the police, and what they expect when they walk out the door depends on the area they work in.

TunaPastaBake Wed 19-Sep-12 10:56:43

SunWuKong - JUST STOP ! angry

Alot of police officers , ex officers (including myself) and officers families on this thread.

Someone getting killed in line of duty whatever their job is not ' Shit happening'

SunWukong Wed 19-Sep-12 10:59:24

Why isn't it?

Random attack by someone who targets authority figures, sure sounds like it to me.

TunaPastaBake Wed 19-Sep-12 11:00:15

biscuit

JodieHarsh Wed 19-Sep-12 11:03:03

Sunwukong you are an ignorant fucking offensive cunt. Cunt off elsewhere. Ta.

<waves at MNHQ>

<points at delete button>

TunaPastaBake Wed 19-Sep-12 11:05:10

Here here Jodie !

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 19-Sep-12 11:07:14

Yes Jodie.
Sunwukong, Fuck Off.
You are offensive.

SunWukong Wed 19-Sep-12 11:09:52

So you are saying he knew those two where coming and it wasn't a random attack on them?.

Whatever. Random shit happens and the police should no go mad over it, if they armed them all deaths would become regular.

niceguy2 Wed 19-Sep-12 11:11:22

I wanted to leave a message of condolence. But what can I say? It all seems so tragic. It really has made me sad this.

Sunwukong, great philosophy in life. Let's hope the next time you are a victim of a crime the police officer you report it to doesn't shrug their shoulder and say 'shit happens' eh?

scurryfunge Wed 19-Sep-12 11:13:22

Sunwukong- it's not random shit. Someone made a deliberate decision to murder.

niceguy2 Wed 19-Sep-12 11:13:45

Of course it wasn't bloody random. 'Someone' called in a fake burglary to a house which was vacant. Even if that wasn't him, do you seriously think he just happened to be mooching around the abandoned house with a loaded gun and grenade and fired them all at the police because he was 'surprised' by them?

Idiot.

VicarInaTutu Wed 19-Sep-12 11:16:24

even knowing "shit happens" does not really mean that you expect to go to work one morning and get killed doing it.

i am really well aware that any job can go tits up, no matter how calm or prepared you are, but ambushing and shooting dead two unarmed women who you have called to the location which you have planned to kill them at doesnt really come under the "shit happens" banner....

There will be no "knee jerk" reactions because the powers that be really dont give a shit.
i feel like cannon fodder. I feel used and abused with no pay back. This week my son went off to university, and i now have less than £90 to last me until pay day because, while i used think the job was well paid and well rewarded, i pay over £200 per month into a pension that is now slashed, i pay fed subs to the toothless tigers that our plastic union, i pay insurance to the hilt just in case i do get killed in service so my family are not left financially out of pocket, and i pay £200 a month in petrol. I earn about £400 more per month than i did when i worked 23 hours per week in a gp surgery - where the worst that happened was i got shouted at a bit by irate patients. I know work 6 days a week, some 10 hour shifts, with no breaks, and i risk getting killed doing the job.

go figure.

ColouringIn Wed 19-Sep-12 11:16:35

Sunwukong

This was a targeted and offensive attack on two unarmed women.....not an accident in a car where you could say "one of those things". Two women went to work and had an absolute right to go home again at the end of their shift. They didn't....not because "shit happens" but because a nasty offensive excuse for a human being got the idea in his head of killing a police officer or two.

That is not "shit happens", that is utter and outright premeditated murder. I hope he rots away in the full knowledge if what he has done....sad thing is that peopl like that don't regret their actions.

I am still raging about this....and I am anti death penalty, anti guns, anti violence but I am struggling with my beliefs today.

TunaPastaBake Wed 19-Sep-12 11:17:04

I am at a loss at what to say really at 'random shit happening ' - except that some people are complete tossers and need to fuck off back under the stone they crawled from under.

teejwood Wed 19-Sep-12 11:20:01

No, not "shit happens". This was completely deliberate. Shitty person does completely shitty thing because he knows the basic humanity shared by a significant proportion of the rest of the population will ensure he gets to live out his life in relative comfort nomatter what - and even if he is jailed for life he will probably be out in too short a time. Also shitty that frontline policing is now so strained and that we are going to lose a lot of good officers because they realise it's simply not worth the risk any more.

Un-mn {{}} and thanks to all those serving or who have served, or whose partners/friends/family members do so.

SunWukong Wed 19-Sep-12 11:20:03

But he didn't know what police would be sent, he didn't ask for them by name thus it was a random attack on authority figures. He was just looking for any one in a police outfit to kill.

ColouringIn Wed 19-Sep-12 11:20:05

"the police should not go mad over it"

You really ARE in a planet of your own aren't you sunwukong

ColouringIn Wed 19-Sep-12 11:21:04

Oh he was just looking for anyone in a police outfit to kill...

Well that's okay then ....hmm

scurryfunge Wed 19-Sep-12 11:21:16

Unbelievable sunwukong.Stop spouting shit.

SunWukong Wed 19-Sep-12 11:22:01

Shit happens just means something random that happens. That's all, that be west London talk.

TunaPastaBake Wed 19-Sep-12 11:23:43

Well just fuck right back to West London then !

SunWukong Wed 19-Sep-12 11:27:27

VicarinaTutu do you think being armed would make you feel safer?

Round here you'd be targetted just by people who want a free gun, a cheap handgun would just be laughed at by the drug gangs here they carry little Russian machine gun things. It would just cause more death.

TunaPastaBake Wed 19-Sep-12 11:29:44

Not gone yet then ?

OhDearNigel Wed 19-Sep-12 11:30:44

Hi Vicar x I see you've come out of undercover grin

A black day for the police as a whole and the most terrible thing for the officer's shift colleagues. One of my colleagues was nearly strangled to death by a known police-hater, she was only a few seconds from death when they got the monster off her. We have been talking about it in the office this morning, we are all horrified. I felt sick when I saw the news yesterday.

Some comments on here do not deserve to be dignified with a response

ColouringIn Wed 19-Sep-12 11:31:52

Most of the police on this thread are not asking to be armed Sun......read the thread why don't you.

VicarInaTutu Wed 19-Sep-12 11:36:56

ive already stated on this thread (can you read sun? ) that i do not want to be armed

what is your crusade you idiot. go away. or learn to read and stop doing some "knee jerking" of your own.

OhDearNigel Wed 19-Sep-12 11:38:24

God knows how long it takes our county colleagues to get help

Ages, ages and ages. Especially if the controller isn't paying attention. I had been in about a year when I was faced with a suspect in the street that may or may not still have been armed. He had threatened someone with a shotgun, I was taking a statement from the victim and it must have been about 2 hours after the original incident. Firearms had been called and were looking for the offender. I went outside to try and find a piece of plastic that the victim mentioned and the offender was about 10m from me. No idea if he was still armed. I had the victim with me to point out where things had happened

I remember the feeling of absolute terror 7 years later, feeling turned to stone with fear, panicking about putting the victim in further danger and calling up for a firearms unit and getting no response from the radio.

OhDearNigel Wed 19-Sep-12 11:39:56

Being armed only helps in a situation where you are expecting to go into a high risk environment. It would make no difference to someone answering their door to what you think is a simple burglary and them shooting you in the head.

I don't know a single colleague that wishes to be armed.

VicarInaTutu Wed 19-Sep-12 11:41:14

i have done a days training with the armed response officers - they do not carry "a little handgun"

they do have hand guns, but they also carry machine guns and rifles. It was a very strange feeling holding, and pointing a gun, even at a target.

but i do not want our police force routinely armed. no.

i want a government to treat us fairly, to stop decimating our service to the point that it is unsafe on a daily basis, but arming me wouldnt stop that no.

i cant believe that following the shooting and furore following the shooting of Mark Duggan, that anyone is now saying arm us! the moment any officer actually did shoot someone there would be uproar. there already is. even when a suspect is armed, the officer is hung out to dry and the country riots....

so no. i dont want a gun. mine would go back with my warrant card and a request for my P45.

teejwood Wed 19-Sep-12 11:46:40

Sunwukong I take it you have told your local police all you know about the local drug gangs and the weapons they possess? You being a good, reasonable citizen and all.

Jux Wed 19-Sep-12 12:06:25

Terribly, terribly sad. I couldn't post yesterday - nothing I could think of to say which seemed adequate. Was v worried about Vicar smile but I had no idea there were so many of you on MN. My heart goes out to you all; am so proud that our police officers still turn up for work despite everything, and in spite of the Government's lamentable attitude.

RIP. Thank you to the rest of you.

MOSagain Wed 19-Sep-12 12:09:36

Totally agree with vicar and as I said earlier up thread. If I was still in the police force and they brought in changes that meant all officers would be armed, I would immediately resign.

TunaPastaBake Wed 19-Sep-12 12:13:48

Ditto MOSagain - I would resign too .

I have been a firearms officer and to routinely arm all officers would be the wrong thing to do.

Nancy66 Wed 19-Sep-12 12:27:00

There's a large variety of 'fly on the wall' style documentaries about the emergency services on TV at the moment.

The amount of abuse they suffer on a daily basis from absolute low life is staggering.

Feel so sorry for the families of these poor women.

vigglewiggle Wed 19-Sep-12 15:14:29

Though I totally disagree with the call to routinely arm all front-line police officers - I take some comfort from the fact that the public is so outraged by the murder of these two officers that they are looking for any possible solution to prevent anything as tragic as this from ever happening again.

I think the answers lie more in - tackling gang-culture; ensuring that justice is properly served; sentencing appropriately; properly funding (not cutting) police budgets; and adequately rewarding officers for the work we do.

There's a vigil at Ashworth lane tomorrow at 7pm if anyone would like to attend. It's to support GMP and the residents of the area.

InspNameChange Wed 19-Sep-12 17:45:42

Had to name change otherwise I would out myself.

Those poor, poor women. I feel so sorry for their families. I sincerely hope that this is going to result in the community in that area having the courage to stand up and provide evidence against these crime gangs. Was listening to the news this morning that despite the £50k reward offered by GMP, that no-one had turned this guy in.

FWIW I am armed, and whilst I can agree with the arguments for not arming police routinely, I know that having a firearm has saved my life.

On a routine call to a stolen vehicle, a guy came running at me with an axe. It was only when I drew my firearm that he stopped in his tracks. I have no doubt that he planned to maim me (at the very least).

It's true though that a firearm will not help in many other circumstances - I have had cars driven directly at me, been shot at, a colleague standing in the same spot I had been 5 minutes before was shot dead sad. Having a firearm wouldn't have helped in those circumstances.

I was on a thread a few months ago where there was a lynch mob about the fab hmm pensions that police get. A lot of comments about why should police get gold plated pensions when nurses don't etc. They certainly aren't gold plated, and have the highest contribution rate in all of the public sector (at 13.5% of gross pay). Even those officers who do make it to retirement have a much lower life expectancy than the general population.

Plomino Wed 19-Sep-12 18:28:47

Just about to come back for work , waiting for my car sharing colleague . Very very quiet day , with a very subdued team indeed .

We get 'mad over this ', this slaughter of innocents , because we are a team . One big team . From England to Wales , Scotland to Ireland . We are all on the same side , and we always watch each other's backs . I couldn't count the number of times I've had some agitated bloke stopped , and then noticed afterwards the TSG carrier parked just where they can keep an eye on me . If I have to deal with something on the train on the way home , I've rarely got to my feet alone . And I do the same for any other colleague . We all do .

I never met those girls , but I feel I knew them all the same . Every team has the irritatingly cheerful one at 5.30am , whether male or female . Every team has the quiet dependable one . They will be missed immeasurably .

Lifeisontheup Wed 19-Sep-12 19:10:36

Plomino That was the most touching tribute to those two officers and indeed to all those who have been killed doing their job.
You have my utmost admiration. I work for the ambulance service in frontline and would like to add me and my colleagues shock and disgust. We consider that the police are part of our team and we work together understanding the challenges we both face in a way which the general public sometimes find hard to fathom.
Please stay safe, all of you, wherever you are.

OhDearNigel Wed 19-Sep-12 19:47:07

to all the response officers on this thread, i wish you all a Q shift tonight and stay safe. DH has been kept on late for about the 18th early shift on the trot dealing with a sexual abuse case involving a 2 year old angry. I really don't think the general public realise what awful fiends there are out there masquerading as human beings

PanofOlympus Wed 19-Sep-12 20:15:45

Oscar - where exactly on Ashworth La. is the vigil? I will be over at Mottram at tea time with dd, at the corner with Broadbottom Road, so would like to go along.

Was at a meeting at a central Manchester Fire Station this morning. We all willingly trooped out into the front yard for 1 mins silence at 11am.

Hopefully at the park, but GMP and organiser are having a meeting in the morning to confirm details. There is a facebook group to keep updated. I don't know if I'll be able to get online during the day tomorrow, but will do my best to update you.

PanofOlympus Wed 19-Sep-12 22:02:55

thanks v much.

Warming to see that twitter hastag #covergmp is being used to register police volunteers from around the country who are volunteering to work the streets and stations whilst GMP staff go off for the funerals.

UPDATE on vigil.

GMP have cancelled it for now, local MP has just tweeted.

GMP are hoping for Monday or Tuesday for the vigil.

PanofOlympus Wed 19-Sep-12 22:42:06

It's probably wise to delay. With a few day's notice there will be thousands and thousands wanting to show up.

PanofOlympus Wed 19-Sep-12 22:44:57

#covergmp has 2,000 police volunteers from across the UK in under two hours. I've volunteered for any civilian jobs on the days, whenever they are.

VicarInaTutu Thu 20-Sep-12 00:46:28

i agree with viggle on the way forward, that rather than arming us routinely perhaps more preventative measures to tackle gang culture, that rather than budget cuts we should be adequately funded (we are struggling at the moment with a lack of vehicles and a lack of computers- just as our systems have all gone computertised they took our computers away) and pay us fairly.

i was also on the pensions thread - i think i may have ended up hiding it in the end though i was heartened by the responses on that aswell - as i am on this one.

very often i feel undervalued, unappreciated and shat on from a great height.

ive just got in from another difficult shift, again with no break and i was late off to boot. i do it, for nothing, time and time again because i care about what i do.

it is heartening that the public are so outraged, and that people are united in the sense of shock and anger. We were just saying today that it could have been any of us, those girls would have been us, talking rubbish in briefing, taking the piss out of each other, then looking at our watch and saying wed best get to that job.....
we do it every day. only they didnt come back.

https://www.facebook.com/events/145712672239044/

Looks like it should be monday now.

Manicmaria Thu 20-Sep-12 20:17:21

Niceguy2

Sunwukong, great philosophy in life. Let's hope the next time you are a victim of a crime the police officer you report it to doesn't shrug their shoulder and say 'shit happens' eh?

Sorry, but the last time I was a victim of crime, thats exactly the impression the police did give me i.e. shit happens. Condolences to all families of Fiona and Nicola, I hope the evil scum gets whats coming. On a different note, I do wish the media would stop referring to the victims as heroes. They wern't hero's, they were just bloody unlucky.

bassetfeet Thu 20-Sep-12 20:20:04

Vicar and all police officers reading
I hope the legacy that is left from this atrocity will be a government re think and a fast one . You are respected and valued by the decent folk of this country believe me ..........I know from my family in the force the crap that has been forced on your workload and working conditions . I will make my voice heard .
Stay safe as you can ....sometimes impossible as we have seen this week .
But never ever feel undervalued by us the public who rely on you for so much from crimesolving to supporting us through the other awful stuff like death informed and rape etc . I dont think many people have that strength of character and empathy to deal with such a wide scope of work .
I hope that the other thread in AIBU did not distress you . I was appalled.
Thinking of you as well as the families of the officers .

vigglewiggle Thu 20-Sep-12 20:26:48

Manicmaria - could you give me an idea of what your definition of a hero would be?

Manicmaria Thu 20-Sep-12 20:36:16

vigglewiggle

Actually, thats a very fair question. Rather than show myself up. I decided to refer to my trusted dictionary. 'Heroine', a woman admired for her brave deeds. Now, perhaps you could now explain to me what is brave about responding to a random burglary call. Afterall, they clearly didn't expect to be faced by someone with a gun, because if they did, then armed police would have responded instead.

PanofOlympus Thu 20-Sep-12 20:36:59

I haven't seen much 'hero' talk at all. Fairly balanced admiration and recognition of tragedy.

scurryfunge Thu 20-Sep-12 20:40:19

Bassett, thank you for your post. The other thread did not distress me. Nice to know decent people value the police.

vigglewiggle Thu 20-Sep-12 20:52:04

I did hear Theresa May use the term today - at least I think that was what she said, but I was busy throwing things at the television so I could be mistaken wink.

Manicmaria - I take your point about the job in question, but to put yourself in a position where you never really know what you are being sent to, or what you may come across, but sign up to do the job anyway is fairly heroic in my view.

I am biased, it is a job I have done for 17 years.I have walked into an armed robbery, had a knife pulled on me by a woman with schizophrenia, stood on a very thin blue-line between two groups of football hooligans etc etc. I put myself in that position because I accept it is part of the job I signed up for and I would never describe myself as heroic. I have to admit though, if the worst happened to me i would hope that the general public I had served would think I had been pretty brave to choose the job that I did.

claig Thu 20-Sep-12 21:25:00

I think police officers are heroic for being prepared to put themselves at risk for the service of the public. Putting service to the public above concerns for personal safety is heroic.

RIP to these two brave police officers. We all feel so much for their families and loved ones. The despicable coward who did it is beneath contempt.

SharonGless Thu 20-Sep-12 21:25:16

Hear hear viggle

SharonGless Thu 20-Sep-12 21:33:48

It's not something you consciously think about day in, day out but the fact is you just never know what you are walking into. The mere fact that you turn up for duty in your uniform and walk out there amongst people who have no respect for law and order and can't help the people who need it most is heroism. Those who haven't done it can have no idea of how it affects you,

I have had to step away from the other thread, and thread about a thread tonight.

Scurry - I get what you are saying on general terms on the others thread but truly Ian Hanson is a good guy who walked in that press conference straight from 3 hours of comforting grieving colleagues. Too emotional maybe, but not dissing those officers.

It gives a little bit of comfort about the public feeling, even though graffiti has to be cleared off the estate in support of Cregan.

He has been charged tonight witha number of offences. Let's see if he is man enogh to admit it incourt

scurryfunge Thu 20-Sep-12 22:02:06

Sharon, I've no doubt intentions are good. Such a desperately sad situation and quite triggering. The police family support their colleagues and I am proud to be part of that family. RIP brave officers x

SharonGless Thu 20-Sep-12 22:05:20

Have you seen on twitter #covergmp and the offers of support pouring on from all over the country to cover the funerals. Overwhelming.
I too am proud to be part of the police family.

vigglewiggle Thu 20-Sep-12 22:07:28

Sharon - they've just mentioned it on the 10 O'clock news! I will certainly be putting my name forward.

Manicmaria Thu 20-Sep-12 22:14:27

I see 'IT' has been charged.

SharonGless Thu 20-Sep-12 22:16:06

It honestly means so much. We have just had collection buckets brought round at work - donations going through the roof. Practical help is what's need.
Just wish they would double crew all officers for next few nights so they feel a little safer

EldritchCleavage Thu 20-Sep-12 22:25:45

I was wondering if a good way of showing support would be for everyone to write to their MPs and sign online petitions asking for the police budget and numbers cuts to be reversed.

SharonGless Thu 20-Sep-12 22:41:45

It would be brilliant if decisions on budgets could be reversed. There also needs to be a culture change within the cops and get more people back onto the response teams

PanofOlympus Thu 20-Sep-12 22:48:49

fwiw, the Manchester Evening News published a wildly inaccurate and damning article about the community of Hattersley/Mottram 'hiding' Cregan.

For the record, nothing of the sort took place. It implied that the people living in that community were 'anti-police'. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've worked in and around Hattersley for years. I see from Oscar's fb link that residents have challenged the MEN's account,and good for them. MEN just thought it would sell papers, on the back of the killings. Bastards.

SharonGless Thu 20-Sep-12 23:06:09

Unbelievable.

When ACC Shewan has been talking tonight about rebuilding the community after the murders.

Words fail me

PanofOlympus Thu 20-Sep-12 23:14:12

Sharon - he was talking about Droylesden/Clayton/other suburbs in East and North Manchester ( and he was right) which are scarred by the 10 yr old 'fued' which has been medieval and barbaric at times. Without saying too much on-line, Hattersley was where it was acted out.

SharonGless Thu 20-Sep-12 23:20:34

Oh I know, apologies head not really with it still.
The media have a lot to answer for.

PanofOlympus Thu 20-Sep-12 23:21:35

'acted out' - I mean ended. The vigil next Monday will probably show the quality of difference in the neighbourhoods. The families of the police officers shouldn't believe they were gunned down by members of an anti-police community.

SharonGless Thu 20-Sep-12 23:27:05

I don't think they will tbh.
However there are
There are lots of rumors doing the rounds as cops have families who live in Hattersley, which the MEN article is feeding

PanofOlympus Thu 20-Sep-12 23:36:34

Hattersley was an 'overspill' estate for M/c City Council - miles from the City - which suffered the usual problems in the 1980s/1990s - poor infrastructure, poor employment, drugs. It was awful. But in recent years it has revived, lots of investment and activity, and a serious drop in crime-related issues. I'd buy a house on Hattersley/Mottram easily now with little worry. A friend lives in Abbey Gdns and heard the events, but saw nothing.

I guess I am trying to say that Cregan was not a Hattersley/Mottram man - circs led him there. And that community should not be blighted by the association. IYSWIM.

Manicmaria Thu 20-Sep-12 23:39:54

PanofOlympus

A friend lives in Abbey Gdns and heard the events, but saw nothing.

Oh dear. Her / him and a load of others. Thats the problem, is it not?

PanofOlympus Thu 20-Sep-12 23:42:38

Not sure what you mean there Manic?? I mean she heard the shots and the explosion. It's a small cul-de-sac.

The MEN have done an absolute hatchet job. Bastards. I'm not on the estate but am in Mottram, my mum worked at a school on the estate for donkeys there are some bad people granted, but he vast majority are decent, law abiding, good people who happen to live somewhere notorious.

The vigil, which I hope is covered by the press, will show that fundamentally this is a good area and none of us have asked for this to be brought here.

I took some flowers tonight and it's devastating to actually tangibly realise exactly what's happened. I'm sad and furious in equal measure. Hattersley is going through massive regeneration and finally shaking off the stigma if it's past and now this happens! angry

PanofOlympus Thu 20-Sep-12 23:57:41

Oscar - I am at the other end of Mottram Moor, but can say I played a part in the 're-design' and investment. And yes there is/was a dreadful legacy and history which others still associate with the area.

VicarInaTutu Fri 21-Sep-12 05:13:42

thanks basset from me aswell....and the other thread didnt offend me at all

there has been a serious shooting incident where i work tonight sad where the hell are people getting guns from? im really shocked - you dont get much quieter than where i am usually.

ColouringIn Fri 21-Sep-12 06:31:02

I am still thinking of these two women and their families, friends and colleagues.sad.

I am glad that Cregan has been charged.....hope he will plead guilty in court.

For all the police officers on this thread....stay safe, I cannot put into words how much you are appreciated by the majority of the public so Thank You for being there for us.

NoBloodyMore Fri 21-Sep-12 09:19:13

I'm going to lay some flowers in Mottram today sad

Vicar glad you're ok xx

birdofthenorth Fri 21-Sep-12 10:15:15

There's a service of reflection on the week's events in Mottram Church at 4 pm this Sunday, in case any locals here are interested (open to all faiths and none)

Thanks Bird, we will try and attend. DS1 is off on camp this weekend and due back about 4 on sunday.

Flobbadobs Fri 21-Sep-12 11:38:09

I went into Manchester yesterday. Saw a couple of PC's walking through the centre and 4 people went up them and shook their hands. I was a bit far away but can only think it was people sympathising with them. A nice touch I thought.

niceguy2 Fri 21-Sep-12 12:59:48

Just seen on the news the heavy police presence bringing Cregan to court. Have to admire the police for the restraint and professionalism being shown. I doubt many people would shed a tear if heaven forbid some unfortunate accident happened.

EldritchCleavage Fri 21-Sep-12 13:47:26

I doubt many people would shed a tear if heaven forbid some unfortunate accident happened

It is very very important that no such accident happens. That's how you sort things out in Cregan's world, and I don't want to live in Cregan's world. I want to live in a world with stability and the rule of law.

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 14:21:07

There's no doubt all will be done exactly by the book. Breathless with rage maybe, but the faultless convictions are far more important.

ColouringIn Fri 21-Sep-12 16:04:52

Just turned on the news to see what Andrew Mitchell has said to a serving police....the real opinion of a true Tory about the police. He needs to resign NOW!

EldritchCleavage Fri 21-Sep-12 16:37:42

I'd like to know quite how Andrew Mitchell thinks 'Knowing your place' (as if that still existed) is compatible with effective policing.

Thumbwitch Fri 21-Sep-12 16:46:25
ColouringIn Fri 21-Sep-12 16:59:25

Yeah..it's that term "know your place" which really pissed me off....who the hell does he think he is? And the use of the term "plebs" was just unforgivable in my opinion. In a week when two serving officers have been so horrifically murdered and the Govt have been singing the praises and speaking of "appreciation" of police officers they need to put their money where their mouth is and hoof this idiot to kingdom come.

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 19:44:23

Just been up to Ashworth La on way home to lay flowers.
Tried to read all of the floral memorials, but it's difficult when you have to keep wiping your eyes. The personal messages hit you like a truck. I got about half way through.

If you live within travelling distance of there, go along? There is a newly open 24 hour supermarket near by so you can get some flowers if you so wish. Will return over weekend with dd. She will learn from it.

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 19:45:27

Mitchell/Cameron/May are total arses.

seeker Fri 21-Sep-12 19:50:23

"I doubt many people would shed a tear if heaven forbid some unfortunate accident happened"

Well, people should, it is incredibly important that justice be done and be seen to be done. And impeccably.

Don't sink to the level of the bad guys.

SharonGless Fri 21-Sep-12 21:03:12

Pan, thank you for doing that.
The support from the public reminds us why we joined in the first place.

Seeker, I totally agree.
To sink to their level means the bad guys have won.

I would shed a tear, but for the cop turned bad who would have brought shame on the justice system

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 21:52:15

S'okay Sharon. Going back with dd at 12 noon on Sunday. She is 12 yo and is mesmorised by the media focus. Seeing the tributes will be a balance.
<fwiw the shame bad cops brought on the CJS is why I left years ago>
Ashworth La. is poignant and a bit eerie at the moment. The service on Sunday and the vigil should provide a focus for grief.

Yes, when the cops behave as badly as the thugs then we have anarchy, and nobody is safe.

Manicmaria Fri 21-Sep-12 22:03:13

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 21:52:15
S'okay Sharon. Going back with dd at 12 noon on Sunday. She is 12 yo and is mesmorised by the media focus.

Thats good. Will you be taking a picnic? Sorry, but words really do fail me.

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 22:09:02

I'll ignore all of that. Take your bitterness elsewhere, thanks.

Manicmaria Fri 21-Sep-12 22:12:55

PanofOlympus

Look, if your taking your daughter out of morbid curiousity then please have the guts to admit it. Family, colleagues I can understand, but why would anyone else wish to make a family excursion out of it?

For those of us who are living this right now we have taken our children to help them process what they are seeing in their daily lives and in the news, newspapers and hearing on the radio.

My sons school was locked down on Tuesday FFs and he wants to understand why. He heard the helicopters all day Tuesday, he has said prayers for the murdered officers that's why I've taken him to see the flowers and hep lay ours. angry

SharonGless Fri 21-Sep-12 22:15:20

Pan lives and works in the area and is showing respect IMO

scottishmummy Fri 21-Sep-12 22:23:40

not in m'ter but have discussed with dc. and I'm moved

we have v close police friends,this has provoked why questions
I work with police professionally,and have v good polce friends personally.I value and respect their hard job,even more at times like this. tbh if pan takes his daughter then that IMO is a v decent thing. and it's difficult to address harrowing stuff with dc,but necessary

Manicmaria Fri 21-Sep-12 22:25:40

Fair enough. What next, burger bar maybe?

scottishmummy Fri 21-Sep-12 22:27:08

ok,what are you aggrieved about
what's on your mind
manic

Manic what's your point?

SharonGless Fri 21-Sep-12 22:30:05

Pan has already posted about how he has been involved in the regenerationin the area.
He is showing respect to fallen officers and explaining to his daughter.
Fine with me

Manicmaria Fri 21-Sep-12 22:30:38

scottishmummy

Ok, its the old 'Diana' mania, isn't it? What happened to those police women was terrible. However, I did not know them. Theres condolence sites set up. Why would anyone want to drag their daughters / sons along if they didn't actually know them. Morbid curiousity, thats all.

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 22:31:38

thanks, Oscar and Sharon and sm - I was ignoring manic's stuff. At 12 it's oddly 'glamorous' and exciting - until you witness the grief that's attached to it.
<wouldn't wish manic to derail tho'>

scottishmummy Fri 21-Sep-12 22:34:19

thanks for reply
but if one is respectful and explains the difficult circumstance of fatalities
IMO,that's responsible,and not overly intrusive.no it's not a rubbernecking fest

Manic did you actually read what I have written! This is real it has affected MY community. I live in Mottram. I have to drive ashworth lane most everyday of my life my children are with most if the time.

Put yourself in our shoes.

scottishmummy Fri 21-Sep-12 22:42:35

manic 12.22 is my reply to you
are you concerned about mawkish behaviors?

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 22:55:23

Oscar knows about this stuff because she actually lives there. Sharon knows this stuff because she is a serving GMP officer. sm knows this stuff because she talks with friends/colleagues about the ramifications. I know this stuff because I was a GMP officer, live 2 miles away and had worked for 7 years on Hattersley and Mottram until last year, and have visited the site tonight.
We all know this stuff because we are also parents.

manic - for me, I have tried to ignore you, because you don't know this stuff. Clearly.

Manicmaria Fri 21-Sep-12 23:01:03

I think its best if I do not comment any further. It was not my intention to offend anyone. However, I remain resolute in what I have said.

PanofOlympus Fri 21-Sep-12 23:05:25

Well, you were offensive, but yes lets let it go.

Hopefully this thread will last for a few days yet, until the service and vigil have passed at least.

Thumbwitch Fri 21-Sep-12 23:15:59

Manic - I don't think that you can compare the two. There was only one Diana, and while she did a good job of what she did, she wasn't gunned down in active service.
These two policewomen aren't just people, they are representative of all serving police officers in the country (world, even) who were doing their job when they were shot. This affects many many more people, not just because of the loss of their lives but because of the "there but for the grace of God" feeling. Family members, friends, officers that are well known in the community - there are very few people in the country who wouldn't have some kind of attachment to a police officer, I would think.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to come and pay respects to them. And for their families to realise that people are truly shocked and saddened by what can happen to police officers doing their daily job. So no, it isn't mawkish in the same way that the whole Diana thing was.

scottishmummy Fri 21-Sep-12 23:17:00

certain jobs never get the recognition they're due
predominately public sector
just think,imagine hearing seeing things most folks would think no fuckin way,boak and run from.then go do that,and try fit in school pick,do I have enough milk or pick up way home,did I submit that document,make headspace forcself, family but process what you have seen done. look no one in these jobs expects plaudits,but at dark times when it's dreadful an acknowledgment of distress...well that would be helpful

vigglewiggle Sat 22-Sep-12 05:46:22

Thank you SM and TW- just up for my early shift and as I head off to work it is important to know that people care about the deaths of my colleagues. I think it is also important for the local community that they demonstrate that the vast majority are caring and pro-police and did not support or assist this murdering b***tard. I'm sure I would want my children to take part in that process if it had happened in my neighbourhood. Blankets of flowers is just how we do it these days.

SharonGless Sat 22-Sep-12 06:59:51

Vw-stay safe

SharonGless Mon 24-Sep-12 17:10:56

Pan. Oscar
The vigil is tomorrow at 10.45 with minute silence at 10.58. Family, friends, colleagues and members of public welcome

PanofOlympus Mon 24-Sep-12 17:36:55

ah thanks Sharon - was up there yesterday lunch time with dd, and will be working tomorrow. Just been past on way home and the flowers have been covered with some plastic to keep the liquid sunshine off them.

SharonGless Mon 24-Sep-12 17:40:21

They have removed the cards to keep for the families so they didn't get soggy in the rain
I'm going tomorrow - we are doing a march back to the police station to bring them home as it were.

There's another vigil at 7, so I'm going to try and get to that one. I'm in University in the morning. I saw them covering the flowers yesterday.

vigglewiggle Wed 03-Oct-12 12:55:16

Should be asleep after a night shift, but I can't sleep and I feel like I should be there in spirit if not in body. Feeling so sad but also proud watching the tributes to this young woman.

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