Hillsborough. Police did doctor evidence in a bid to avoid blame.

(523 Posts)
Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 01:21:14

A report in the Independent about the cover up. RIP to the people who lost their lives on 15th April 1989.
And condolences to the families who are still suffering.

www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/exclusive-hillsborough--police-did-doctor-evidence-in-bid-to-avoid-blame-8126233.html

randomfemale Wed 12-Sep-12 01:35:07

My FIL was a serving police officer at Hillsborough - now retired. He maintains it was all the fault of the Liverpool fans and that their behaviour was less than honourable. His accounts of the day are quite shocking and I would not post them on here as they are his and I can't verify.

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 09:36:48

My brother was a Liverpool supporter at Hillsborough. He maintains he saw the wounded and dying on the pitch being attended to by only fellow supporters using advertising boards as makeshift stretchers.

His friend was in the stand to the side of the Leppings Lane. He had taken a camera, and when he realised the incident was serious, he started to take photographs. He thought the photos would be significant to any future investigation, so had an extra set developed and took them to the police.

He heard no more about it, and later got in touch with the police who said they had an overwhelming amount of evidence so did not need his photos. He asked for them back, but was told they were lost.

When the Hillsborough families started to dispute the ruling on the 3.15 time of death, suggesting all the dead were dead by this time, he looked again at his own set of photos. They had the stadium clock on them, and it was later than 3.15 when he started taking the photos. He handed the pictures to the Families Support Group and gave evidence at the later enquiry.

I would say that it was less than honourable to lose a piece of significant evidence such as that. I would also call it less than honourable to amend the statements of junior police officers present.

It could quite easily have been me going to Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral today. So it is not just an issue for the families that are.

It could also have been happening in any other Cathedral in England, because any team could have got through to that semi final and that ground was not fit to host it. So it is not just an issue for the people of Liverpool.

It could have happened at any public event in the country. So it is not just an issue for football fans.

And if the evidence to be released today shows that there has been a significant cover up involving the police, the media and the government, it if definitely an issue for us all.

campergirls Wed 12-Sep-12 09:51:46

The line taken by the South Yorkshire police was discredited by Lord Justice Taylor's official report just months after the disaster. It would be very hard indeed to find documentary evidence to verify police accounts that seek to shunt the blame for the disaster onto Liverpool fans.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 10:00:20

The idea that the fans were to blame and behaved disgracefully was totally repudiated by the report and no trace of the reported bad behaviour was ever found on the CCTV footage, or the tv footage.

Blaming the fans and telling stories about them is bloody disgraceful.
Absolutely shameful.

Kaloobear Wed 12-Sep-12 10:02:43

God, I didn't know that much about the Hillsborough disaster-I just read up about it and am horrified. I can't imagine how terrified those poor people must have been sad

bottleofbeer Wed 12-Sep-12 10:10:04

As dishonourable as pushing dying men, women and children back into those pens? As dishonourable as not allowing more than 40 ambulances onto the pitch because "they were still fighting" in there? As dishonourable as chanving statements and asking the bereaved parents of CHILDREN how much they'd had to drink? I'd go on but these action and lies will have the lid blown off today. JFT96.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 10:19:52

The real shocker for me was how quickly the senior police decided to blame the fans to cover their arses.
David Duckenfield gave the disastrous order to open the side gate and within the hour told FA officials that the fans had smashed the gate open.
While the disaster was unfolding he ordered a line of police to prevent the Liverpool fans reaching the other end of the stadium where most were trying to reach help/ambulances. He also stopped a whole line of ambulances entering.out of something like 40 deployed and siting outside only two were allowed to tend the dying.

Just awful.

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 10:22:17

JFT96

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 10:22:45

A doctor there who attended the wounded has just been on BBC News. He, and all other medical staff, were 'chucked out' (his words) of the gym which was being used as a makeshift hospital at 5 o'clock, and it was locked down by the police for a debrief. He says there was a similar debrief session involving the ambulance service.

I find this a beyond shocking account of the day.

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 10:35:31

Andy Burnham is saying on the news, prepare to be even more shocked, at the scale of the lies and the cover-up.

randomfemale Wed 12-Sep-12 10:39:14

I take it all you lot were actually there on the day then? hmm

SwedishEdith Wed 12-Sep-12 10:45:50

Were you random?

Mymumsdaughter Wed 12-Sep-12 10:46:18

JFT96

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 10:47:09

My FIL was a serving police officer at Hillsborough - now retired. He maintains it was all the fault of the Liverpool fans and that their behaviour was less than honourable. His accounts of the day are quite shocking and I would not post them on here as they are his and I can't verify.

And that opinion has been proven in law to be false and malicious. The only question now is how far the police went with their false and malicious actions and accounts of the day.

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 10:48:43

My brother was random - and his friend, with his camera. The doctor I just spoke of was as well. He has just stood in front of TV cameras to give his account.

You don't have to believe them of course. You don't have to believe Lord Justice Taylor. You may start to find it hard to not believe today, if the weight of evidence is as huge was seems to be promised.

JFT96

bottleofbeer Wed 12-Sep-12 10:51:12

Thankyou to those outside of Liverpool for taking the time to find out the truth. Sadly thse misconceptions are still widely accepted as the truth. These were normal people, normal families like yours and mine. They went to a football match on a sunny Saturday afternoon and died horrifically, they begged the poilce to help them and the police shook their heads and walked away. There were children in those pens. They began getting over the fence, they were pushed back in. Duckenfield had such a clear view of those pens you could see the time on people's watches. He knew what was happening but rather than give the order to open the gates into the adjoining and almost empty pens he called it a pitch invasion, he however DID give the order for the side gate to be opened allowing 2000 more fans into already overcrowded pens; when he realised the magnitude of that decision and what it caused he outright LIED and said fans stormed the gate. What he should have done was just pure common sense: delay the match until the people were safely in the grounds, instead he gave that fatal order. CCTV of th incident went missing from a locked room.

They eventually break through the pens and begin giving help and rescucitation to the injured and dying. Still most of the police stood around like lemons. One fan who ripped some of the hoarding off to use as a makeshift stretcher was told "you can't just vandalise the place". 40 ambulances with life saving equipment on board were not allowed onto the pitch because - as I said they were told "they're still fighting in there" - it was known now and fully evident this was not a pitch invasion, they were not fighting, they were trying to save their fellow fans lives. it was all about arse covering, blame the fans till the very end even if it means that people are dying right now. Distraught families treated like dirt and not being allowed to touch their dead loved ones as they were now "the property of the coroner" and being aggressively questioned minutes after identifying the body. "What were they drinking?" again, to perpetuate the biggest myths of the 20th century.

Officers have come forward to admit they followed orders to change their statements. And then the biggest kick in the teeth; the headline of that rag, The Sun.

The cut off point of 3:15pm, meaning it was DECIDED, despite plenty of evidence to to the contrary that everyone who died was dead by then. Yet police officers were saying "no, this person died in my arms at 4pm". Their inquests were therefore a load of bollocks. He was dead by 3:15 madam, accept it even though you've been told he was alive long after that time, he doesn't get a proper inquest. Go away, stop bothering us.

So, to those who wonder what justice means, what do they still want after all this time? they want an apology, they want to expose the cover up that believe me most assuredly happened. They want the truth to be known, they want their loved ones to stop being blamed for their own deaths when all they'd done was attend a terribly managed football match. They want some accountablity. Afterall, isn't that the crux of the word 'justice'?

Let's hope that today, 23 years later, they get some peace. They bloody deserve it.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 10:58:12

I also think that people forget that the man in charge on the day, Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, has admitted in court that he lied and made false statements about what actually happened.

bottleofbeer Wed 12-Sep-12 11:06:13

I think people involved, especially some of the police officers HAVE to tell themselves these lies. It'd be too hard to live with, to admit to your part in it. Imagine it, you're dying, horribly and painfully and you know it. You see an officer just feet ahead of you, you catch his eye. Thank God! he's there to help, it's his job! and you mouth "help us" to him. He looks you in the eye, shakes his head and walks away. This is just one of the accounts of a survivor. You make it out of those pens injured, but alive. How justifiably angry do you feel? you've had the weight of dead people on your back, they didn't help any of you, in fact; they made it worse.

Then, as if all of that isn't bad enough they blame you! they're 100% culpable but they're blaming you. Imagine it was one of your children. Anybody still a bit vague about the reasons they seek justice?

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 11:07:09

I hope it all comes out. What happened was a totally preventable tragedy. The cover up that followed was an insult to the dead and their families. The fact that it's taken so long for the truth to come out is an utter disgrace.

A United fan here hoping for JFT96.

stressheaderic Wed 12-Sep-12 11:16:07

Excellent post, bottleofbeer.

I hope the bereaved families get some true answers today. They have been fobbed off for long enough. JFT96.

drummerswife Wed 12-Sep-12 11:22:54

random
my nans friends 2 grandsons were there and they never came home
thinking of the families and those who tragically lost their lives that day

Upsy1981 Wed 12-Sep-12 11:30:48

Some really excellent posts. It shocks me how little people from outside the area know about the accounts of that day and probably think that its these scousers raking up old wounds just for the sake of it. I really hope these families finally feel vindicated today, although I know they will not feel victorious.

boschy Wed 12-Sep-12 11:33:32

My thoughts go out to all those bereaved families, and the injured who are still living with the effects of that day. I do feel sorry too for those emergency services staff involved, especially those who were coerced into the cover up.

What does JFT96 mean please?

Upsy1981 Wed 12-Sep-12 11:34:54

Justice for the 96

boschy Wed 12-Sep-12 11:36:53

thank you upsy - makes sense!! I'm not a football fan, nor a Liverpudlian, but god I still remember the horror of that day. Was watching the news this am with my 2 teenagers, they couldn't understand how it could have been allowed to happen.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 11:37:20

Bottleofbeer

I really struggle with the fact that people believe the lies told about that day but I agree without gator many of the police - having watched the horror unfold and been either helpless to stop the deaths or worse, having been instructed to do things that made it worse - the urge to reinvent that day in your head must ave be overwhelming.

Randomfemale
Your FIL may have many understandable reasons to deny the awful truth that the force he worked for woefully letown the people they were meant to serve. But you do no one any service when you perpetuate things that have been proven to be lies and which are unimaginably awful for the still grieving families.

boschy Wed 12-Sep-12 11:45:00

Why did police officers who were asked to change their statements do so, and then stick with their statements? Job security? not allowed to talk to the press?

bottleofbeer Wed 12-Sep-12 11:47:59

Thanks smile I'm taking my kids to town this afternoon for the vigil, to help support the families and survivors. Yeah we've got a habit of holding a minute's silence because "me great auntie Elsie's budgie died yesterday" but I feel it's important to show solidarity on a day like today.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 11:50:13

I think the urge to not be responsible was huge. I think the backdrop of hooliganism made the possibility that fans were involved seem likely and it took a change of gear hard.

Very quickly senior police and the press had blamed the fans, swathes of police were sticking to the story. I suspect being a loan voice that said 'hang on,that was a lie' must ave been difficult.

And most of the police were pawns in the whole thing. Their choice was blame the fans or align yourself with those who saw police as evil.

Upsy1981 Wed 12-Sep-12 11:53:46

I don't think they were given much choice. It seems to have been a complete whitewash from the top down. How can a PC with a family at home to feed be expected to fight against that? If you are interested I read Hillsborough The Truth by Phil Scraton. Really informative book and got my blood boiling especially over the issue regarding the time of death.

I know 3 people who were there, one being my dad. He was slightly injured and very shocked but it could have been a lot worse. I was only 8 and saw it unfold on the tv knowing my dad was at the match. I know now that my mum kept a lot of the panic hidden from me as you would. And the effects are still with those people today.

Upsy1981 Wed 12-Sep-12 11:55:25

Bottleofbeer, that made me laugh about the budgie!

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 11:59:48

One of the things in the link that stands out is the lack of police radios. It's hard to imagine now in the age of mobile phones, but most of the police were completely out of touch with each other.

Those making decisions (on the turnstiles) were doing so without being able to see the effect of them (people being crushed) and when chaos errupted there was a total lack of leadership or direction and the individual police officers were inclined to disbelieve/distrust the fans and to actually blame them. In the abscence of leadership and information prejudice took over. Then the cover up swept into action when the senior officers realised what they had caused to happen.

bottleofbeer Wed 12-Sep-12 12:00:20

Ahhh, Upsy, this must be so important to you and your family today. I'm the black (red) sheep of the family, a loooong line of blues. It could have been any team that day.

boschy Wed 12-Sep-12 12:10:40

Yes, I agree that for the average PC it must have been totally overwhelming, very frightening, no leadership, no communications. And then perhaps if you are asked questions afterwards in the right (well, actually, wrong) way you start to question your own judgement about what you saw, and then start to believe what you are told to believe or perhaps what you want to believe.

I will look out that book upsy.

RIP and condolences again.

threeOrangesocksmorgan Wed 12-Sep-12 12:16:18

so glad that at last the families are getting answers.
blaming the fans is sick imo.
there was a woman on the tv who had lost 2 children. one was 15

threeOrangesocksmorgan Wed 12-Sep-12 12:19:29

bottleofbeer amazing post

amothersplaceisinthewrong Wed 12-Sep-12 12:21:18

I remember watching on TV, with my six month old son and was totally shocked.
I hope the families of the bereaved and the survivors get some proper answers.

How anyone can believe what the police say happened that day is beyond me.

We saw the fans driving to Sheffield that morning, scarves and flags waving, happy as larry to enjoy FA Cup football on a lovely clear day.

We saw them coming home too. No flags, no scarves, no noise. Just the shocked faces of those who had witnessed a totally preventable tragedy.

JFT96

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 12:32:08
Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 13:08:12

They tested the alcohol levels of dead children in order to try to blame them for their own deaths. Shocking.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 13:12:25

David Cameron has just given a full, profound and sincere apology on behalf of the government and the previous governments in the house.
The independent inquiry has vindicated entirely all the concerns expressed by the victims families.
The report reveals attempts by many including the police to blame the entirely innocent victims.

There may now be a fresh enquiry.

Kayano Wed 12-Sep-12 13:13:56

So what happens now? Is that it or start over?

Accept the police were to blame or launch another enquiry? I hope it gets resolved soon sad

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 13:20:30

I think the original has to be scrapped. They have to start over.

The extent of the over up being revealed is shocking tbh.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 13:37:16

The families want proper, factual and truthful inquests into the deaths of their loved ones. They want the genuine cause of death and time of death recorded, not convenient made up ones. They don't want to be told everyone was dead by 3.15 when they know full well their loved one was still alive. They want to know the precise details of every factor which contributed to their loved one's death.

Rockchick1984 Wed 12-Sep-12 13:39:08

Random I hope you never lose a loved one only to then be told it was their own fault, despite glaring evidence to the contrary. It's sick individuals like your FIL who have changed their statements to make it look like they were not at fault to save their own necks at the expense of grieving families. It's people like yourself believing these evil lies who have disparaged the evidence and perpetuated the view that these victims somehow "deserved" what they got. Have my first ever biscuit

I am so pleased with the findings today, I just sincerely hope the new inquest is granted. Both the individuals AND the overall bodies who covered this up need to be held accountable for their devastating actions.

JFT96

Doyouthinktheysaurus Wed 12-Sep-12 13:42:12

My thoughts are with the families and friends of the 96 and the survivors of the disaster today.

The actions of the Police have been an absolute disgrace and the fact that it has taken 23 years to get to this point is unbelievably shocking.

boschy Wed 12-Sep-12 13:43:05

I think Dave was sincere; I hope the enquiry is now a proper resolution.
Terrible rain in Liverpool...

LittleBlackDress Wed 12-Sep-12 13:49:26

random my DH and his father were there that day. They could not disagree more.

My DH had a little cry when he heard the announcement and apology live on the radio today.

JFT96

Losingitall Wed 12-Sep-12 13:57:31

Random has disappeared then?

Good!angry

Kewcumber Wed 12-Sep-12 13:58:42

I think there were police officers who gave evidence saying that they were way undermanned, had insufficient radios and queried certain orders. I don't think all the police statements of the day were changed by the officers involved. I only say this based on what i have read subsequently.

I have no idea if all the officers were aware their statements had been changed though.

TheSmallPrint Wed 12-Sep-12 14:10:37

I'm no football fan and I'm from the south but I remember this happening and hearing this today is bringing tears to my eyes. I cannot believe what those poor people had to suffer and then be balmed for it.

I'll add my name for JFT96.

Flisspaps Wed 12-Sep-12 14:10:48

randomfemale his accounts are not only shocking, but fictional.

DH's uncle was there (or so I believe) and he is one of the lucky ones who came back home that day. He is one of those people that had disgusting lies told about them by the police and the media.

Fantastic vindication, at last for the survivors and the bereaved families. So admire the unrelenting strength, patience and determination of those campaigning for the truth.

JFT96.

Kayano Wed 12-Sep-12 14:14:13

Can you ever get the full facts? I dot think you would be able to get the correct time of death for everyone.

The police were in the wrong
There has been an apology
Stadium safety has been improved so so much since

I just hope the families can get some peace after the next enquiry. The problem is that yes there was a cover up and lies but some people wrongly have different memories.

I can imagine it was overwhelming for the individual police officers at the scene who might have seen the absolute devastation as threatening, they might have not realised what was happening at first due to the fighting to survive this terrible incident being perceived as just fighting

Iyswim?

I don't think even with all this new evidence you can ever get the full truth

Or get what the families really want which is justice and convictions.... Who would you convict? The individual police or the ones who did the covering up?

I don't think t will ever get laid to rest unfortunately

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 14:20:38

I think that is a huge misunderstanding of what the families ave even fighting for.

The families (as I understand it) simply want an understanding of what happened.
You may never get at the entire facts but, for example, a proper inquest covering the period post 3.15 would help some families get information about the deaths of their loved ones.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned 'convicting' anyone. But as long as people were still able to think that the victims were even partly to blame, finding out what really happened could finally put those lies to rest.

JFT96 YNWA

thebestisyettocome Wed 12-Sep-12 14:28:36

People should be VERY careful about what they post on this thread. The account RandomFemale's fil gave has CLEARLY been proven to be lies. David Cameron described it as a false narrative of hooliganism.
I've listened to the coverage on Radio Merseyside and it's heartbreaking. One man knew and father and son who travelled to H'boro on the coach together but only had one ticket. The father sat on the coach listeing to the coverage on the radio and heard the terrible events unfurl. The son was crushed to death. Imamgine the pain of that.

Vagaceratops Wed 12-Sep-12 14:43:16

I hope they have a new inquest and the families can get some comfort from that.

lovelychops Wed 12-Sep-12 14:44:33

Random

I wasn't there, but my DP was. I can assure you his account of what happened are drastically different to those of your FIL.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Wed 12-Sep-12 14:45:49

JFT96

YNWA

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 14:47:33

Kayano you are misunderstanding what the families want. They want the truth. If the truth is 'we don't know the time you child died' them that's what they want. If it's 'your brother died somewhere between 3.30 and 4.30' then that's what they want. What they don't want is what they've been given for 23 years which was lies and dishonesty, being told they were all dead by 3.15 when they know full well that was not the case.

They were all told their loved ones all died of traumatic asyphixia. That was lies. The autopsy results showed that many of them had no signs of this. Those families want to know why they really died. Perhaps they'll never know. But they want the chance to try and fit as many pieces together as they can, something they couldn't begin to do while they were being decieved.

Losingitall Wed 12-Sep-12 14:51:41

Anyone else that had committed perjury would be subject to the criminal justice system.

Wonder if ever they will be brought in front of the courts!

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 14:51:42

Now for a new inquest.

And Kayano this enquiry has been totally different to the usual ones where people are called to give evidence. This one has focused on documents. It has focused on fact not opinion. It's about the truth of what happened.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 14:53:01

The inquest stated that 41 victims were still showing signs of life at 3.15 and it is possible that at least some of them could have beensaved.
If one of them were my child i think i might wantto know.
Someone instructed alcohol testing on the victims, including a tenyear old. I want to know who gave that order.
I want to know why Kelvin McKenzie was confident enough to publish the lie that fans urinated on the dead. I want him to explain why.ohyes I do.

lovelychops Wed 12-Sep-12 14:53:06

The families involved with the tragedy have behaved with dignity throughout the whole campaign.

It's ignorance coming from posters like Random who are proof that it's time to clear the names of all who were there on that day 23 years ago.

Today the truth has come out, I really hope justice will follow.

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 14:55:04

Pagwatch those lies have been traced back by the enquiry to a briefing given by the police to a specific Sheffield news agency.

Kayano Wed 12-Sep-12 14:55:43

That's exactly what I am saying

I don't think they will get the exact truth but I hope they get what they can from the new enquiry because they have all been through some much

To be fair to random she didn't actually post what her FIL said because she didn't know what happened, only stated he had a different story

Who knows what it is? It could be 'I was assaulted by a Liverpool fan' when really what happened could have been a Liverpool fan slapping him out of sheer distress and frustration to pull himself
Together and try and save some lives
Iyswim?

I'm on your side btw

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 14:57:12

Thankyou narked.
I am going to spend an afternoon reading the documents tomorrow if I can.

Kelvin McKenzie is very quiet suddenly.

Kayano Wed 12-Sep-12 14:57:54

I know that narked. I think it's fantastic that they did this and hope the new inquest sheds new light for the families

I just feel so sad for them

noddyholder Wed 12-Sep-12 14:59:42

The more you read the worse it gets. Shocking. Kelvin McaKenzie is indeed very quiet But really what can he say?He is awful at the best of times but this is the lowest

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 15:01:23

There is a possibility that 41 people could have been saved. This is very shocking. We could never have been expected to hear that kind of evidence. Just awful for the families.

VivClicquot Wed 12-Sep-12 15:02:25

Sky have just said that Kelvin Mackenzie is going to issue a statement shortly. Should be interesting to see what the lying toad says.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 15:02:49

Kayano
Tbh I think Randoms 'were you there hmm ' comment was the more irritating one.

Yes, I said that I think individual police officers on the ground were screwed tbh and many have commented on how great some of them were.

But I don't think anyone is 'after' the police on the ground.
it is the systematic cover up, lying to the press, lying about opening the gate, trying to find evidence of criminal records amongst the victim so they could slur them, refusing to let the ambulances through, re-writing sttements etc etc , by the senior police and - it seems- the ambulance service - that people want exposed.

kdiddy Wed 12-Sep-12 15:03:37

My DH was there with FIL as a Nottingham Forest fan. He was very clear that Liverpool fans were trying to help each other, whilst ambulances sat outside and police did very little. He has always said that it was clear the 3.15 cut off was totally false and people were obviously still alive but in trouble. In the main the police do a marvellous job and they are very different today than 23 years ago, but sadly here they appear to have used their authority to peddle utter fictions which anyone in the stadium could have told you were rubbish.

I am totally disgusted it has taken so long to reach the conclusions the panel have but I hope justice is finally going to be done.

OrangeKipper Wed 12-Sep-12 15:03:44

Sammy the original report didn't say they all died before 3.15pm.

It said all the injuries were caused before 3.15 pm.

And that medical assistance after that time would not have reversed the injuries. It's this second bit that the new report disagrees with.

I only mention this because a lot of people here and in RL are obviously really distressed by the "blatant lie they were all dead by 3.15 pm", whereas that - of all the awful things that happened - is actually a misunderstanding. But it doesn't change the big picture, and God knows there no shortage of actual lies that were actually told.

Profoundly glad to see today's report and that a fresh inquest may be held.

Do you think Kelvin McKenzie will apologise now too?

Kayano Wed 12-Sep-12 15:06:39

Ah. I missed the 'were you there' comment sorry.

I think the cover up was disgraceful. Children tested for alcohol.

Kayano Wed 12-Sep-12 15:08:24

I think he will. He knows he was wrong and believing all the lies

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 15:10:07

He's known it was bollocks for years. If he ever actually believed it.

Kayano Wed 12-Sep-12 15:12:50

I know he knows it was bollocks for years. He apologised years ago too.

He was so wrong and I think he will apologise again today. As well he should

Kayano Wed 12-Sep-12 15:14:04

Apparently he just has

It's so horrible sad

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 15:14:10

Any apology from him is meaningless.

VivClicquot Wed 12-Sep-12 15:17:15

He's apologised for the headline - said he should have headlined his piece 'The Lies' rather than 'The Truth'. What a spineless piece of shit.

Greythorne Wed 12-Sep-12 15:18:41

What was the motivation for the police claiming the dead were all dead by 15.15?

I am very keen to hear McKenzie's statement.

I admire the people of Liverpool so much for boycotting The Sun for all those years. On MN, there are constant refrains of 'sorry, it's a DM link' and 'oh, the DM is so anti-women' but the circulation and page impressions go up. But on Merseyside, they bloody well did it. Stuck by the boycott of a scum newspaper. Scourges get a lot of stick for being over-emotional, but they stick together and are loyal. Kudos.

MysteriousHamster Wed 12-Sep-12 15:20:45

JFT96

41 people might have been saved.

randomfemale I have no words for you. Read David Cameron's full statement. Read the news stories. Read the facts. The Liverpool fans were human beings that day just trying to stay alive and help one another. Why on earth you would choose to believe anything else in the face of all this evidence is honestly beyond me. I am appalled. Don't blindly believe one relative who would have his own reasons for denial.

The police lied. Evidence was covered up. The pathologists didn't do their job properly. The fans were wrongly blamed.

This search for justice has not been about wallowing in grief (I cannot stand this line of thought), it has been about being able to get a proper, full understanding of what happened so that people can begin to grieve properly.

I am so sad, and so angry, reading all about it.

Greythorne Wed 12-Sep-12 15:22:12

Orangekipper
X post
You have answered my question about the 3.15 issue

Sorry kelvin too little too late. I am proud to be a scouser and proud of the families of the 96 who died, they have all behaved with dignity and I hope they will now get the answers they deserve.

Dawndonna Wed 12-Sep-12 15:23:20

JFT96.

The South Yorkshire Police, among others, effectively murdered 41 people.

ilove Wed 12-Sep-12 15:23:43

JFT96. YNWA

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 15:24:16

OrangeKipper you're splitting hairs. The fact is that the cut off time of 3.15 was false. The new report says 'the notion of a single,
unvarying and rapid pattern of death in all cases is unsustainable'. The coroner was wrong in his assumption that nothing would have made a difference after this time. The new report says 'Some of those who
died did so after a significant period of unconsciousness during which they might have been able to be resuscitated, or conversely may have succumbed to a new event such as inappropriate positioning.' The families want to know the truth.

Greythorne Wed 12-Sep-12 15:26:34

Scousers get a lot of stick

lovelychops Wed 12-Sep-12 15:26:43

I don't think for one minute Kelvin McKenzie is sincere. It was only a few years ago he said "I'm not sorry then and I'm not sorry now".

The BBC need to stop including him on their programmes and take a stand.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 15:26:47

What was the motivation for the police claiming the dead were all dead by 15.15?

It got them off the hook for stopping the ambulances getting to them. IE lessened their culpability, because it wouldn't have made a difference any how. Except now the truth is out and we know it could have made a difference.

MarthasHarbour Wed 12-Sep-12 15:28:42

randomfemale take this biscuit

I remember this day, i was 16 years old and working in a shop on the Saturday, a customer came in and told us what was happening. When i got home i sat and watched the news all night crying. I lived in Northumberland at the time, no football connections, no ties to any of the families, just empathy. My dad is a retired police officer and can be a bit of an arse and prejudicial a-lot at times. Even he is disgusted by the police cover up.

I remember going into school on the Monday morning, someone had a copy of the Sun and was looking at the big picture on the front of people trapped in the pens. Our Biology teacher made him throw it out, i will never forget his words 'most of those people in that picture are dead'

I am no fan of David Cameron, but he has made me proud today.

JFT96 God Bless the families x

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 15:29:26

Trevor Hicks just said that they will stop dealing with the BBC if thy on't stop dealing with Kelvin McKenzie
I think lowlife was the phrase he used.

CaptainHoratioWragge Wed 12-Sep-12 15:31:21

On R4 this morning one of the family members said:

"can you imagine if 96 people had been killed in a stadium in the olympics this summer, the police deciding to blame the victims"

I can't imagine it, it is unthinkable that they would be allowed to do that, and it is unthinkable that they were allowed to do it at hillsborough,

AND for more than 20 years the police have not had to answer criminal charges for their unbelievable actions that day.

My heartfelt respect goes to the victims families who have sacrificed so much to get this report out.

I hope new inquests, verdicts and criminal charges for the police follow.

OrangeKipper Wed 12-Sep-12 15:34:12

Sammy, agree completely that the cut off time of 3.15 has been shown to be hopeless, and that the new report says that action after 3.15 might have saved them. A future inquest must do the job properly.

But you have specifically been saying that people are distressed by being falsely told their loved ones were dead by 3.15. When that's not what was said. I think this detail will matter to those affected. As you yourself said, every detail of the deaths matters.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 15:34:23

It's also worth remembering that as well as the 96 souls lost, 766 people were injured of which 300 were so serious they were admitted to hospital, some of whom are still there. sad

lovelychops Wed 12-Sep-12 15:34:54

just saw that Pag. Lowlife is far too polite for McKenzie.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 15:37:06

So I didn't express myself properly OrangeKipper, but you knew what I meant and are still just splitting hairs. Go and argue with someone else on a different thread. I'm really not in the mood for it here and now.

SuperB0F Wed 12-Sep-12 15:51:58

Accounts like this one show the lengths that the families have had to go to to get answers about how their loved news died. They show how cruel it was to deny them the dignity of a decent inquest.

Kevin was fifteen when he died. If the other forty three waiting ambulances had been allowed into the ground, if he had been taken to hospital, if if if...it is entirely possible he would be alive today.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 15:52:29

I grew up on Great Homer Street and remember my first school trip to Anfield in the 1970s. I still have photos of us lined up pretending to run out of the players tunnel and sitting on the managers bench.

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 16:04:46

For those who don't know and those too young to remember this is what happened at Hillsborough:

Most football grounds in 1989 had fixed metal fencing at the front of stands (between the crowd and the pitch) due to hooliganism in football. Sturdy, solid stuff. Grounds had standing areas rather than the all seater stadiums we now have in football - essentially really wide, concrete steps with the odd metal railing here and there and fixed, concrete sides. So basically, you had an enclosed space with fixed boundaries, and tiny entrances/exits. Because of this, the numbers allowed in had to be watched very carefully, as unlike now it wasn't a case of one person for every seat and then it's full. There was the potential for overcrowding and death.

Hillsborough was a big ground that was used for FA cup semi final matches. It was chosen for capacity and it's ability to host big matches (it was neither teams home ground.)

The police were manning the entrance to the stands. There were a lot of Liverpool fans who had been stuck in traffic and so, just prior to kick off, lots of people were trying to get into the ground through a very small entrance, resulting in a big mass of people outside the turnstiles.

The police took the decision to open gates into an already full area to ease the build up. People flooded in. Those going in had no idea of the situation in the stand as they had no view of it as they entered the gates. Those already in the stand were pushed forward by the flow of people into the metal fencing. They were being crushed to death. People continued to pour in.

And it was the fans who realised what was happening. It was the fans who tried to save their fellow fans lives

96 died. Hundreds more were injured.

MysteriousHamster Wed 12-Sep-12 16:05:24

I had to walk past a plaque for Kevin every day I was at secondary school, SuperBOF, I will never forget sad

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 16:07:33

I was almost 16 when the events at hillsborough occured. Im not from Liverpool. I am from and live in Essex but i remember watching it on the news that day and being utterly horrified.
I could be remembering this wrong but im sure some of the tv news initially reported it as hooliganism and vandalism.
I remember watching it on the news in total shock and despair. I knew it wasnt hooliganism or vandalism.
The cover ups the corruption. That bastard McKenzie printing his LIES.
Printing a complete fabrication when people including children had lost their lives.
And today i hear on the news that they even tested alcohol levels in the children so desperate were they to shift the blame. Christ almighty!
The relatives have shown determination and dignity. I send them my condolences and my support. JFT96.

Insignificunt Wed 12-Sep-12 16:11:59

Shit. Just fucking hell.

I was 9 when this happened and living in the south. I had NO idea what it was all about and suspect my parents kept the news images away from me.

I've never really read more than the headlines about inquiries/anniversaries since. Until today. I'm beyond horrified that this happened. I cannot even begin to imagine the fear and pain that those poor people went through.

I'm ashamed of my 23 years of ignorance now. And disgusted at the 23 years of lies families and injured people have had to endure.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 16:14:21

I remember watching it unfold on tv with my family in our new(ish) home down south as tickets were like gold dust. There was a hammering at the front door and my sister went to open it. The parish priest ran in, looked around the room at everyone, burst into tears and said 'I thought you'd all gone'.

SpudtheScarecrow Wed 12-Sep-12 16:25:17

I vividly remember sitting down with my mum top watch the match, I was 13, both of us big football fans tho not Liverpool supporters. I remember thinking it was hooliganism at first and then sitting and watching the horror of it all unfold.

Now, as parent of kids who love football and I can only imagine taking/sending your kids to a match with them all excited about their team being in a semi-final and then them not coming home. To then have them blamed is beyond appalling.

I don't have much time for Cameron but he has done the right thing today. I hope this is the start of justice. I have so much respect and admiration for the families and their refusal to give up

OrangeKipper Wed 12-Sep-12 16:29:26

Wot Bof said. sad

fridakahlo Wed 12-Sep-12 16:33:11

I was seven, lived in the south and had no interest in football, no tv but I still remember when it happened. I don't know how but I do.
Glad that the right answers are starting to be given.

Hulababy Wed 12-Sep-12 16:37:06

I hope the families get the information they need. To live without knowing the truth must be so hard, and to live being told lies even harder.

Hopefully today goes someway in bringing them that truth, so that they can start to grieve properly, after all these years.

Hard reading for them, but essential to know.

It is, I think, also important to remember to that it wan't ALL of the police and ALL of the emergency services in Sheffield that were to blame, not even all of those who were in attendance. It will be down to key figures in those services, not really the ordinary officer/ambulance person, etc.

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 16:41:27

Pond life Kelvin McKenzie was on Any Questions on Radio 4 just two months ago. Owen Jones had a go at him and said he should apologise. Mckenzie refused to aplologise then too.

OneLastSoul Wed 12-Sep-12 16:46:19

RandomFemale I suggest you read some of the accounts of fans who were there on the day. There's one on the Liverpool Echo website right now; a fan who was being crushed, trying to escape the pen, a policeman pushing him back in and calling him a 'fucking twat'.

Nice to know that the PM has apologised, Kelvin MacKenzie has apologised, the current head of SY police has apologised....and yet people like your FIL are still trying to blame innocent people. Disgusting.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 16:47:19

It is, I think, also important to remember to that it wan't ALL of the police and ALL of the emergency services in Sheffield that were to blame, not even all of those who were in attendance. It will be down to key figures in those services, not really the ordinary officer/ambulance person, etc.

This is very true. Anne Williams would not have known anything but the official lies if some of those who tried to save her son hadn't told her the truth. She says the the WPC who was with him when he died told her that his final word was "Mum" at 4.00pm. How utterly heartbreaking that the official line was that this never happened because he died before 3.15. sad

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 16:49:22

One thing I would say is, listening to the statement and Q&A session from the families, is they were such normal people. They are not people with great legal minds or with access to unlimited resources.

It has taken them 23 years, but they took on a massive machine of cover up and lies by the establishment, often under suspicion themselves, and they have eventually won.

I didn't believe today would ever come.

I'm so glad the truth has finally come. Now
I hope the families get the justice they and their loved ones deserve.

Jft96. Ynwa.

bleedingheart Wed 12-Sep-12 16:54:23

That 96 people died in the most horrible circumstances is shocking enough, that their families have had to wait 23 years for the truth and apologies is just shameful.

I don't know anyone involved, I was 9 when it happened and saw it unfold on television after coming hime with my mum to find my dad with tears in his eyes watching but I feel do proud and respectful of those families who have fought and fought for this day.
JFT96

saltnpepashere Wed 12-Sep-12 16:54:23

Can I just ask, why did the police open the gates into an already full part of the football ground?

bleedingheart Wed 12-Sep-12 16:55:06

And The Sun is still boycotted by my family.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 17:03:15

Saltnpepa - I think this would be one of the questions that needs a truthful answer.

According to the programme that was on the other night, there was no filtering system of fans outside the ground as there had been the year before, when Liverpool also played at Hillsborough.

Which meant that (copied from Narked's post above):
^The police were manning the entrance to the stands. There were a lot of Liverpool fans who had been stuck in traffic and so, just prior to kick off, lots of people were trying to get into the ground through a very small entrance, resulting in a big mass of people outside the turnstiles.

The police took the decision to open gates into an already full area to ease the build up. People flooded in. Those going in had no idea of the situation in the stand as they had no view of it as they entered the gates. Those already in the stand were pushed forward by the flow of people into the metal fencing. They were being crushed to death. People continued to pour in.^

I think lack of communication between inside and outside was an issue, but cannot be the full answer.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 17:04:31

And by lack of communication, I mean among police, not fans, who cannot be expected to see through concrete walls and know what is going on. People who should know are those sitting with CCTV footage, or above the action in police surveillance boxes.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 17:08:01

Also the pen where the crush happened was down a massive tunnel which is right in front of you when you enter. The entrances to the less busy pens were less visible and to the sides. People unfamiliar with the ground wouldn't have known there was any other way to go than straight on.

There were a lot of Liverpool fans who had been stuck in traffic

The trains were delayed by the police stopping and searching them three times.

Can I just ask, why did the police open the gates into an already full part of the football ground

Part of that was because the match was being televised and there had been complaints by various sources about the kick off times being held up.

The police were pandering to other sources rather tahn carryout their public safety duties

That is one reason, anyway.

I had numerous friends there, one died, i watched the tradegy unfold on television.

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 17:09:17

Growlithe they deliberately destroyed evidence. Thank God your brothers friend kept another set of the photos.

I vividly remember that day, although I was only a child. We were watching on the tv. I had been taken to football matches by family before that and this was the first tragedy that really touched me. This could have been my family at any stadium.
The behaviour and mismanagement of the authorities that day was disgusting but the lies and treatment of the bereaved in the years after is unforgivable. Let's hope justice will finally be made.

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 17:12:10

Salt the terrace was divided into pens, for crowd control purposes. The middle pens were accessed by a tunnel. They were already almost to capacity when the decision was made to open the gate to relieve pressure on the road outside. The tunnel should have been closed off at that point, to disperse the crowd to the side pens. It wasn't, and the weight of the crowd behind pushed people into the tunnel. Massive human error.

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 17:15:57

Sorry Birds. I wasn't trying to get into the details of what happened before or after, just trying to explain how people came to be crushed IYSWIM.

As a proud scouser (although a blue one) I am shocked & disgusted that there are still those (randomfemales FIL) who seek to perpetuate the myth that the fans were responsible for the tragedy that day. I just hope that now the papers have been published that kind of remark becomes a thing of the past.

I have 2 friends who are survivors of Leppings Lane & although they were not physically injured the memories of that day will live with them forever. Let's just hope a new inquest is granted & the original accidental death verdicts overturned to reflect what really happened.

And don't even get me started on MacKenzie & the scumbag Sun.

JFT96 YNWA

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 17:20:21

It was a totally preventable tragedy, and once it had happened, the police set about blaming the fans for causing it and lying about their behaviour to cover up that fact.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 17:21:49

When you look back there were so many signposts to a tragedy.
My grandad went to Hillsborough to watch Spurs play a couple of years before.

He came back and said "I'm never going there again - it's a disaster waiting to happen". There had been some similar issues of overcrowding but the response was different - they got people out of the pens and sat them on the ground round the edge of the pitch. He said then, why on earth doesn't someone do something? And was staggered that they continued to use the ground for these big matches.

My uncle went to the '89 game as a Forest fan. He said it looked like crowd trouble for all of five minutes - and he didn't have a good view. After that, it was clear it was a tragedy happening. He has always said the police, at least those sitting in the viewing boxes above, must have known, right from the outset, if he, sitting a way away with dodgy eyesight, knew.

My sister and I are a few years younger than the two Hicks girls, Sarah and Victoria, who died. We also grew up attending football matches (not Liverpool though!). The first few years of matches I attended were when it was standing room only on the terraces by the pitch, so the story of the Hick's girls could so easily have been ours. I first came across their story when I was about 15 - the same age as the younger girl when she died. Since then, I have never attended a match without thinking of them - two girls, who set off so excited, just like we did every other week, but who never came home.
I heard their Dad being interviewed a few years ago - he found both girls, side by side on the pitch, the ambulance came and he went in it with his younger daughter, believing another would be along for his older girl. It never came as no more ambulances were allowed on to the pitch. I hope he finally gets some justice, along with the other families.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 17:24:31

I am struggling to decide what part of today's conclusions are the more shocking tbh.

The fact that 146 policemen altered their statements is pretty high. The extraordinary speed with which the authorities moved to blame the fans is too.
I think checking the blood alcohol of a 10 year old is the hardest to process. People thought this was valid.

BitOutOfPractice Wed 12-Sep-12 17:27:22

And I am struggling to believe that a MNer here today is still trying to blame the fans. Shame on you random angry

JFT96

Abra1d Wed 12-Sep-12 17:27:53

These days mobiles and iPhones would establish immediately what was happening and allow the fans to bypass the police and call for help, sending photos and film.

We take this technology for granted, don't we? sad

Greythorne Wed 12-Sep-12 17:30:02

McKenzie is a foul individual. I think it is truly pathetic that even when apologising, he blames the local news agency (Whites) and a police press release. What it shows, actually, is his complete bias. He got some very weird, implausible and shocking "info" about Liverpool supporters and rather than say, "hang on, let's get this corroborated, this is extraordinary" he just leapt to print "The Truth" as a headline. It shows his utter contemot for ordinary people, his bias against Liverpool fans and his fucking pigheadedness to stick by his decision for so many years. I would like to call him spineless but that would be too polite.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 17:30:25

Ah but you see he was a football fan Pagwatch. That tells you all you need to know, doesn't it? sad

Greythorne Wed 12-Sep-12 17:31:01

I would love to know if McKenzie has any supporters.

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 17:33:49

I watched it unfold on TV as a 16 year old, then went to both Uni and lived in Liverpool where the grief was and still is palpable. I'm a Sunderland fan , but stood on the Kop quite a few times one of which was when Tony Bland died.
I'm quite choked up today - JFT96.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 17:34:05

Hope the irony comes through in my last post.
I still come across people who say things like 'I wouldn't go to a football match - too dangerous - all those fans who cause trouble.'
I've attended football matches for just over 25 years and have only seen 'trouble' once - and that turned out to be nothing, but it was dark and we couldn't see what was happening so thought there was an incident.
It was just the conclusion that the press, especially, loved to reach. My mum tells of going to matches, getting in the car to drive home, and hearing reports of violence at the match and thinking "Where? We didn't see it and we were there the whole time." So it was easy to blame the fans because that was the prevailing idea at the time - that fans were all there for trouble.

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 17:34:56

Abra I've been thinking about that today. Our family wouldn't have had to wait hours to hear my brother was ok, after the kind people of Sheffield started letting people into their homes to phone home.

Also, pictures would be all over FB and Twitter. The world is a more transparent place these days.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 17:35:46

And why did the police carry out CRB checks on all the victims?

MrsVamos Wed 12-Sep-12 17:36:09

JFT96

YNWA

QuickLookBusy Wed 12-Sep-12 17:37:47

Not amongst anyone I know Greythorne but he seems to have a few amongst tv producers, as he seems to regularly appear sharing his vile views.

I really hope people stop employing him now.

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 17:40:27

McKenzie has a massive contempt for the working classes which has always been shown in his attitude.

VintageEbonyGold Wed 12-Sep-12 17:44:03

JFT96

I saw it on the news as a child and the sheer horror will stay with me. As a child it was obviously not football violence. Shame on those who didn't help and those who covered it up.

Deepest sympathy to those who were/are affected by this.

TheHeirOfSlytherin Wed 12-Sep-12 17:44:14

Was there not a huge and vast increase in hooliganism in the 70s and 80s though? I would imagine the atmosphere would be one of anticipation - the police perhaps were waiting for something to kick off and when it seemingly did they were heavy handed thinking they were just responding to hooliganism, once they realised what was really happening then their earlier actions had already caused too much damage - hence the lies to try and save themselves.

I grew up being told of hillsborough as my mum is a football fan and from Liverpool, she said that it was inevitable though, she remembers being crushed by crowds at other matches (like sometimes happens at music concerts) and her dad having to hold the crowds off them both.

I hope everyone gets the answers they are looking for after so long sad

Hulababy Wed 12-Sep-12 17:49:59

TheHeir - there was indeed a huge amount of football hooliganism in this era. Not at this match and it was definitely not the cause of the tragic events, but sadly football at this time was still very much overshadowed by the significant majority who were intent on violence and hooliganism.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 17:50:03

Heir - there were issues with hooliganism, yes.
However, the stories were also good value as news and vastly overblown - I wrote this just above:

I still come across people who say things like 'I wouldn't go to a football match - too dangerous - all those fans who cause trouble.'
I've attended football matches for just over 25 years and have only seen 'trouble' once - and that turned out to be nothing, but it was dark and we couldn't see what was happening so thought there was an incident.
It was just the conclusion that the press, especially, loved to reach. My mum tells of going to matches, getting in the car to drive home, and hearing reports of violence at the match and thinking "Where? We didn't see it and we were there the whole time." So it was easy to blame the fans because that was the prevailing idea at the time - that fans were all there for trouble.

The press are culpable for painting all football vans as violent thugs. There was hooliganism, but it was nowhere near as bad as people would have you believe.

spoonsspoonsspoons Wed 12-Sep-12 17:51:41

Liverpool in particular were marked because of what happened at Heysel.

Of course, the fact that violence happened at other times does not condone what happened at Hillsborough.

OrangeKipper Wed 12-Sep-12 17:52:24

At the risk of getting snapped at again, I have heard the explanation for the blood alcohol tests on children.

Again I'm only putting this in because people seem distressed by this specific point. Take it how you like.

A few years ago I saw an interview of the supervising pathologist(?) who had ordered this test, who was upset that he had upset people.

IIRC, he was called in from another part of the country to be an outsider unconnected with the local police. Because he was aware it was a major incident, before he even packed his bags to get there he issued instructions for the dead to be treated with the respect given to murder victims and be given a full standard autopsy package, not some skimped measure.

The full standard autopsy package included blood tests for chemicals and alcohol.

He was not even aware at that stage that there were children among the dead.

When he realised the true situation and that he'd increased the distress of bereaved parents, he was mortified.

The unspeakable actions of those police, politicians and press who tried hard to portray the dead as "drunk fans" then gave a horrific spin to what was originally an attempt to ensure justice was done to the dead.

I hope I've remembered that right. I'll willingly stand corrected if not.

NovackNGood Wed 12-Sep-12 17:52:34

And if you check out The Suns online page no mention of the fact that it was The Sun that did the lions share of the blaming the fans.

SuperB0F Wed 12-Sep-12 17:52:39

There had been incidents of violence by "casuals" (a sort of culture based around gangs, fashion etc, a bit like skinheads sort of thing) which involved young blokes attached to particular teams meeting for fights, which had largely been dealt with after the early eighties. I think that the police generalised their approach from these experiences, and ended up showing contempt and mistrust for all football fans and working-class crowds generally. That's my opinion on it, anyway, and I suppose we are getting into conjecture now, but what cannot be disputed about Hillsborough is that it was NOT connected to hooliganism or crowd violence, and that the police were well aware of this from very early on. They wanted to keep the focus off their own catalogue of errors, and blaming the fans was the way they did it.

OrangeKipper Wed 12-Sep-12 17:53:43

Huge sympathy to all those here who lost someone or had someone personally affected.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 17:54:16

By that, I don't mean that violence didn't take place, nor that the consequences didn't have the potential to be horrific if it did. I meant more that it seemed to be a given that it would happen at every match - which was just not true -and that it was all that fans wanted - which wasn't true either, for the vast majority of us.
And therefore, people were quick to blame fans, and it was easy to do so, because the prevailing idea was one of crowd violence. If some perspective on the actual versus the imagined scale of hooliganism had been kept, generally, in the press, then maybe it wouldn't have been quite so easy to blame fans at Hillsborough.

chrisdriver Wed 12-Sep-12 17:57:26

I'm just stunned that it has taken so long to get to this point. It really makes me question my faith in "the system".

So very sad for anyone involved.

Hulababy Wed 12-Sep-12 17:58:14

babybythesea - some of the violence from football hooliganism WAS indeed very bad at times. I have spoken to one such man - he was a particularly unpleasant man in his days as a football hooligan from what I could gather, and from his accounts he was still on the outside of it all, not right int he centre. His friends were all involved. It was small pockets of people who got together with a lot of intent to cause violence. And trouble they did indeed cause and a lot of violence - people being stabbed, punched, beaten up...and deliberately. I should add that I never knew this man at the time, only knew him due to circumstances afterwards, have seen videos that back up his stories. He is now no longer alive. He was also from Sheffield.

All irrelevant to this particular event however. And in no way to blame for what happened that day.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 17:59:43

Babybythesea

Without altering anythingll that I have said previously..

There was a hideous legacy football hooliganism through the 70s and 80s which was the backdrop which allowed otherwise rational and ompasionate people to question, in those early days, whether some of the fans were a contributing factor.

I was 27 in 1989. I had experienced many episodes of football violence including a group of young men banging on my door, covered in blood, and hiding from a mob of fans chasing them. I have ever been more terrified as they piled through a residential area throwing bottles and missiles at our homes. I had two boys from my school imprisoned for gbh as they used to plan attacks on opposing fans. It was an awful time for the sport I grew up loving.

So you are absolutely right that people wondered about the fans. And itwas completely wrongly. But many of them were not ignorant and anti-football. There was a recent history that gave this incident a context that the police and the sun ruthlessly and shamelessly exploited.

TheHeirOfSlytherin Wed 12-Sep-12 18:03:27

Thanks Hulababy and Babybythesea for clarifying smile

sunflowersfollowthesun Wed 12-Sep-12 18:03:53

Not to suggest that hooliganism was to blame for the Hillsborough tragedy but football hooliganism was rife at the time. It was in fact the reason why the stands were penned in the first place.

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 18:04:49

Just watching Trevor Hicks now. What a man.

TheHeirOfSlytherin Wed 12-Sep-12 18:04:53

And thanks to pag too, cross posted sorry.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 18:06:10

The full standard autopsy package included blood tests for chemicals and alcohol.

The report says that this is not true, that is wasn't normal procedure and that there was no justification for it. The Prime Minister said the same in his statement and apologised for it. Stop making excuses for liars.

spartafc Wed 12-Sep-12 18:06:21

My FIL was a serving police officer at Hillsborough - now retired. He maintains it was all the fault of the Liverpool fans and that their behaviour was less than honourable. His accounts of the day are quite shocking and I would not post them on here as they are his and I can't verify

Amazing. Just amazing.

What will it take to convince some people of the fans' innocence? An independent panel studying 400,000 documents? An apology from the PM? Oh no. Because your FIL says it was all the fault of the Liverpool fans.

All their fault.

You, and your FIL, disgust me.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 18:07:57

I really can't believe that there are posters on this thread still trying to excuse the behaviour of officials who have now been proven to be in the wrong. Unfuckingbelievable.

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 18:09:48

Sammy the intention there might be to turn it into a "bunfight" so the thread gets pulled. So im trying not to rise to it for that reason even though i agree with you.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 18:10:36

I don't mean to say that violence did not occur - it did. Nor that it wasn't a serious issue - it was.
But I don't think it occurred on the scale that people seemed to imagine.

As I said, my Mum attended matches through the whole of the seventies and eighties. She regularly heard reports of violence at matches that she had attended, where none had been evident and certainly not of the magnitude that the press would gleefully report.

I had people ask me whether I was frightened to attend matches due to all the fighting - it's that kind of image I think did the damage - the idea that violence was prevalent at every game. It's just not accurate. And that is why i think it was easy, for so long, to get away with blaming the fans - because the over-riding assumption, especially of non-footie fans, was that matches were an excuse for people who loved fighting. Obviously, the stereotype had to start somewhere - it didn't just spring out of nothing -but it was allowed to get out of hand and become the prevailing idea of what a football fan attending a match was like.

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 18:10:37

There is bad behaviour at 99% of football games every Saturday and Sunday. Does that mean people deserve to die and be blamed for it,? Does it bollocks!

NovackNGood Wed 12-Sep-12 18:13:32

I was thinking the same sammy.

Every investigation should be investigated on it's merits and this goes t show how not only was it the MET that had big problems. Turns out that the police are as bent as 1970's dramas would have you believe except it was not the plod on the beat it was their bosses.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 18:14:27

Sammy the intention there might be to turn it into a "bunfight" so the thread gets pulled. So im trying not to rise to it for that reason even though i agree with you.

You're probably right and are doing a better job than me. I'd better walk away before I implode.

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 18:15:52

But what do you mean by bad behaviour, KenDoddsDad?
Do you mean swearing, which certainly happens, or full on violence, which I've never seen inside a stadium despite 25 years or so of attending matches?

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 18:16:04

Dominic Mohan current Sun editor is blaming the police their story. Obviously nothing to do with MacKenzie or his bent journos then? hmm

OrangeKipper Wed 12-Sep-12 18:16:14

Sammy, if you've read the report, and it says that blood tests weren't part of the standard autopsy package, then I believe you.

NCForNow Wed 12-Sep-12 18:17:09

My friend who was only 15 held up a grown woman who had seen her husband crushed to death. He saw things that day that have left a mark on him and people like randomfemale should not be posting on a thread like this since she was not there.

RIP all those who lost their lives.

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 18:17:47

OrangeKipper David Cameron said this today:

The Coroner took blood alcohol levels from all of the deceased including children.

The Panel finds no rationale whatsoever for what it regards as an "exceptional" decision.

sunflowersfollowthesun Wed 12-Sep-12 18:18:27

Nobodies suggested any such thing KenDodds, but those of us who were around at the time know that football hooliganism was a massive problem at the time. We were the scourge of European football, no one wanted the English teams to visit because of the violence that accompanied the fans. Police attitudes were also much less "politically correct" at the time too. Haven't you ever watched The Sweeney? So, expectation of trouble, pens and no communication anything like we have now. A recipe for disaster compounded a thousand times by the appalling cover up.

TheHeirOfSlytherin Wed 12-Sep-12 18:19:45

I hope the comments about trying to start a bunfight aren't directed at me because I wasn't. The atmosphere at the time of the event regarding attitudes to football fans is relevant to the discussion.

TunaPastaBake Wed 12-Sep-12 18:20:07

In 1989 I was a young police officer with 3 years service - the police communication in those days were like this [http://www.qsl.net/gm8aob/pages_2/be439.htm here]]

On a normal shift sometimes you would have enough radios let alone a major public event.

I am embarrassed by the whole cover-up by lets not say it was 'the Police' it was Senior Officers who didn't have a clue and as always the blame should be with Senior Officers not the bobby on the beat.

The only good thing to come out of the Hillsborough disaster was the improvement in Senior Officers training for major events and disaster control.

OrangeKipper Wed 12-Sep-12 18:20:34

Yep, seen that one now. Like I say, I'll go with what the new report says, which Sammy has read.

And I'm absolutely not trying to turn anything into a bunfight.hmm

TunaPastaBake Wed 12-Sep-12 18:20:50
LadyBeagleEyes Wed 12-Sep-12 18:22:27

I knew there had been a cover up, but I'm speechless at the sheer scale of it.
23 years for those poor families that have finally been vindicated shock sad
Is the Sun still boycotted in Liverpool?

Hulababy Wed 12-Sep-12 18:22:38

kenDodds...afaik noone on this thread has ever said such a thing at all. However, it was put out that maybe violence amongst football hooliganism was not as bad as the press made it seem. It was there discussed...although in most posts it was also pointed out that although their was a history of violence amngst some football fans that this was not the cause or blame for Hillsborough.

MoreBeta Wed 12-Sep-12 18:23:55

I am old enough to remember the decision to put up those metal fences at football grounds. I said at the time it would lead to people being crushed and it did in horrible circumstances at Hillsborough.

The police will be heavily criticised today but in risk managment theory it is well known that a series of seemingly unrelated decisions, actions and chance events often over a long period of time often lead to the final disaster.

I know the fences were taken down shortly after Hillsborough but I do wonder if the Govt of the day were also keen to also avoid blame and legal liability. The initial inquiry came up with a conclusion that was rather convenient for a lot of people who had an interest in blaming the fans.

ChristineDaae Wed 12-Sep-12 18:24:12

random your FIL is disgustingly wrong. I hope he has watched the news today and feels thouroughly ashamed of the lies he is telling himself and others. As a soused who was only about 6 months old when this happened I can tell you iv NEVER read the S*n and never will. An apology... Like the last one he issued but admitted he didn't mean? Absolute scum. JFT96

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 18:25:01

Babybythesea

Honest to god, I am not trying to argue with but really, there was a lot of trouble and very bad it was too.
My family were immersed football, my brothers played and we went to matches - arsenal, tottenhm, Chelsea, Oxford, reading, derby.
It was awful for a while. If your mother missed much of it she did well.

It has nothing to do with hillsborough. But I would rather think that the previous years of hooliganism was the reason why people doubted the real story for a while rather than some irrational snobbery about football.

And of course it wouldn't have mattered if ootball hooligans were rampaging throughout the land - it had nothing to do with the totally innocent victims at hillsborough who did nothing wrong.

Growlithe Wed 12-Sep-12 18:25:59

Yes The Sun is and always will be boycotted in Merseyside. Trevor Hicks went so far to ask if there were any representatives from The Sun at the press conference, saying if there were would they please leave.

I would urge anyone who has been shocked by today's revelations to boycott The Sun.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 18:27:53

Yy morebeta

I recall the discussions about putting fans effectively in cages and it being a recipe for a tragedy

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 18:28:59

It was post the Bradford fire too wasn't it.

Badvoc Wed 12-Sep-12 18:31:04

Jft96

TheWonderfulFanny Wed 12-Sep-12 18:31:30

JFT96

spartafc Wed 12-Sep-12 18:33:03

But I would rather think that the previous years of hooliganism was the reason why people doubted the real story for a while rather than some irrational snobbery about football.

I think another reason people believed the lies told is that they were being told to us by people we would normally trust - the Police, the Government, the press (who we probably trust less, but certainly to some extent).

Even if football had never been plagued by hooliganism (which it undeniably has) I think it would still be understandble, to a point, if some people said they believed the lies were facts. It was a campaign of deception.

I went to school with a boy who died at Hillsborough, and latterly I worked with his Mum. She was a shell of a woman. She talked about her lovely son all the time. I hope she finds some peace today, at long last. But I somehow doubt it. She knew it was all lies, she knew her boy was alive past 3:15pm. Perhaps it will help that now everyone knows.

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 18:33:18

I didn't say anyone had suggested it on this thread... It was used by the media as an excuse to blame the fans.

OrangeKipper Wed 12-Sep-12 18:34:12

The Hillsborough Family Support Group also gave a statement to the Leveson Inquiry about the unhealthy relationship between press and police. Sadly, nothing seems to have changed.

Pagwatch Wed 12-Sep-12 18:37:20

Yes. There was a stronger sense that the police etc wouldn't lie than there is now.

That poor woman Spartfc.
It is impossible to imagine the grief and anguish of losing a child and then hearing slurs about them. I hope this helps just a little

Upsy1981 Wed 12-Sep-12 18:41:09

So pleased with today's news. Just watching Andy Burnham MP speak at the vigil now. When he spoke at the memorial service a few years ago and the crowd started chanting it moved me to tears and you could see him realising how important this was to the people of Merseyside. And yes, The Sun is still most definitely boycotted in Liverpool. I'm not sure i've ever seen anyone reading the Sun in Liverpool.

LouMacca Wed 12-Sep-12 18:43:33

Just catching up with the news and feel sick to my stomach.

Utterly heartbreaking sad

JFT96 x x

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed Wed 12-Sep-12 18:49:14

I'm a Liverpool fan, but was 12 weeks pregnant the day of the disaster so watched on television. It was obvious from the very next morning that the real events were being misrepresented because the news coverage and official statements were so at odds with what I saw. They were reporting things that I knew weren't true because I'd seen the exact opposite. That's one thing that's always puzzled me - why did they think they could tell so many lies about an event that happened live on national television? Do they really think people are that stupid?!

I'm glad the truth is finally coming out, I hope it leads to the families getting the justice they deserve. They've suffered for far too long, and through it all have shown enormous dignity.

JFT96 YNWA

Eggrules Wed 12-Sep-12 18:52:34

I agree with Growlithe I would urge anyone who has been shocked by today's revelations to boycott The S#n.

Like ChristineDaae, I never have and never will.

spoonsspoonsspoons Wed 12-Sep-12 18:53:02

Thank goodness the cages weren't there in Bradford Pagwatch

MrsCampbellBlack Wed 12-Sep-12 18:53:40

I am pleased the truth is now out there.

And sad that some people still choose to believe liars.

ThatVikRinA22 Wed 12-Sep-12 18:54:25

agree with tunapasta
having said that i would rather have lost my job than join in a cover up. i am a serving officer.
i hope the families can begin to find some peace. Its all so very sad.

Hanleyhigh Wed 12-Sep-12 18:55:42

There is a theory that the Thatcher government did not dig too deeply into the actions of South Yorkshire Police as they were aligned with them after the support they'd shown the same government in the early/mid 1980s. Don't know what anyone thinks about this.

It's a small detail but it has always bothered me that such a big match was held in a club/ground with no safety certificate, I mean it's not subjective, it's black and white that it hadn't been done. The football people involved (as opposed to police) were allowed to climb the ranks within football and I don't understand that either.

Dave Conn writes well about this subject.

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 19:01:50

I would very much like to know whether the cover-up was so hideously successful for so long because it was in some way sanctioned by Thatcher.

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 12-Sep-12 19:02:59

I've never bought the Sun.
As for Kelvin Mackenzie, why does he appear all over the tv now as some sort of media pundit?
His views have not changed over the years , he just directs his bile at others.
I would love to never, ever see his face again.

Hanleyhigh Wed 12-Sep-12 19:03:58

The notes from the Thatcher government meetings have not yet been released IIRC. Hopefully they will be now.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 19:07:04

I know the fences were taken down shortly after Hillsborough but I do wonder if the Govt of the day were also keen to also avoid blame and legal liability. The initial inquiry came up with a conclusion that was rather convenient for a lot of people who had an interest in blaming the fans.

I wondered that too. Especially seeing as the courts ruled that police officers involved could claim compensation for their distress but that the families couldn't.

skyebluesapphire Wed 12-Sep-12 19:07:51

I live in Devon, I was 17 when Hillsborough happened and I had two friends there that day who were season ticket holders and travelled from Devon to every game. I watched it unfold on tv with the wife of one friend and we feared for their lives.

Thankfully they were ok but they were both traumatised and received counselling. The marriage of one broke up and the other still cries to this day when talking about it.

They attended inquests and hearings and gave evidence and were disgusted at how they had been portrayed as fans.

Today the truth is out. The police changed their statements in order to blame the fans. Yes, maybe some of them had a few pints before the match but that didn't mean that they deserved to die and then be blamed for causing their own death.

The government and police at that time should hang their heads in shame.

Justice for the 96

RIP

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 19:08:59

Also, I think that it was/is the city council that had/has the legal responsibility for ground safety.

Hanleyhigh Wed 12-Sep-12 19:10:59

Hmmm...still wonder why no one was held responsible for that. Surely having all your documentation up to date is a pre-requisite?

babybythesea Wed 12-Sep-12 19:12:03

Pagwatch - I understand what you're trying to say, and I'm not trying to minimise the extent of the hooliganism. Stereotypes appear for a reason, and English teams were also banned from Europe for a reason.
But, were you in fear of your life from the violence at every game? If so, why did you continue to go? I had people ask me if I wasn't scared to attend - they genuinely believed that violence was a part of every single game, because that is what they were told. They believed that fans weren't that interested in the match but went along for the fighting and couldn't understand why my parents were being so irresponsible taking me and my sister (from the ages of 8 and 6) along.
It was bad, but it wasn't a given at every game, and neither was every fan automatically a thug.

It was that kind of attitude though, that I do think helped the cover-up. If you believe that every fan is a violent person, intent on a good scrap, you are less likely to question the official line when told the fans were causing trouble.

Vev Wed 12-Sep-12 19:14:19

Justice for the 96 and I would say it is about time.

I was getting my then weeks old son ready and the match was on in the background. I watched it unfold, wondered what the hell was going on, it was truly horrific. It carried on until the match stopped.

I can't see in any way how the fans could ever be blamed, they were at the front innocently watching the match, ignorant of the tragedy to happen. sad

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 19:18:03

Hanley all the government papers have been released now, including the cabinet ones. They reveal lack of action in the government's response but clear them of being complicate in the cover up. The main points it makes about the government are:

86. In documents disclosed to the Panel it is evident that the primary concern of the Government at the time was the potential impact (positive or negative) on the Parliamentary passage of the planned Football Spectators Bill.

87. Following the publication of the Taylor Report, the Prime Minister was briefed that ‘the defensive – and at times close to deceitful – behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar’. The Government did not seek to protect the SYP Chief Constable and it was considered inevitable that he would resign. His resignation, however, was rejected by South Yorkshire Police Authority.

88. Access to Cabinet documents reveals that in an exchange about her Government ‘welcoming the Report’ the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, expressed her concern that the ‘broad thrust’ of the Taylor Report onstituted a ‘devastating criticism of the police’.

Quoted from the Hillsborough Report

Hanleyhigh Wed 12-Sep-12 19:18:52

Thanks.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 19:31:07

*complicate? Where did that come from, it should have been complicit.

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 19:35:00

There will (or ought to be) 41 new inquests and I hope that Michael Mansfield will be able to test the adequacy of Thatcher's response, especially given her knowledge about the actual events of that day.

Jux Wed 12-Sep-12 19:47:49

It was so obvious at the time that it was a darn sight more than just unruly fans. I remember it so clearly, and the papers the next day.

RIP 96 and justice and truth may at last be served.

catherinea1971 Wed 12-Sep-12 19:50:14

An emotional day here in Liverpool.
The families of the 96 are at last being given the truth, hopefully they will have justice soon too.
JFT96.

YNWA

AGoldenOrange Wed 12-Sep-12 19:55:34

I was still in nappies at the time of Hillsborough, never knew much about it apart from that it was a tragedy.

Just been looking at the news on-line and I'm shocked at the scale of the cover up.

My heart goes out to all the families involved.

HiHowAreYou Wed 12-Sep-12 19:55:58

RIP those poor people.
This took too long. I hope the families gain some peace now.

I was listening to the matches that day on the radio, in the car. My team was in the other semi final. I'll never forget it. What a tragedy.

I am also astounded that random's FIL dares to peddle such cowardly lies, still. Disgusting.

Are there many people here who actively need to boycott The Sun?

Disgusted but relieved that the fans and victims have been vindicated.

JFT 96 YNWA

getrealandgetalife Wed 12-Sep-12 20:21:08

I have read every one of the 215 messages on here, and cried all the way through it.

I'm from Liverpool, and although I didnt go to the match I know loads who did. Luckily noone i knew died. but the people i did know were changed forever by what they saw. i'm changed by seeing one chap on Friday in work, there were about 8 of them going, then on Monday he came into work.. Haunted is the only word for it... I was warned not to speak to him about it... he was hollow. He never came back to work after that... he couldnt face the surviours guilt.

These were normal family men. just normal, nothing outstanding, not sterotypical thugs.

the s*n has done everything to get back into liverpool, even opening the news international printing place there. I wouldnt wipe me bum with the s*n, not then, not now.

and before they say, we printed what we were told to be true..... Get REAL! people saw it live on TV, did anyone see what was claimed? People said they saw scousers stealing from dead bodies, when in reality they were looking for identification.....

shame on those who easily believed the cover up. and just remember next time there is a huge story.... Make up your own mind.

JFT96

Working my way through the report in disbelief. I expected there to be major issues, but not to this extent. Horrifying.

To those discussing hooliganism in the 80s, my own perspective is that aged 15 - 16 I was allowed to go to home matches and stand in the Kop, with a couple of other girls my age, all of us with the kind of parents where you had to submit requests in triplicate with supporting evidence if you wanted to do anything as risky as go shopping. Yes, it was a bit rough - you made sure you stood right in front of one of the rails so you didn't get pushed about when we scored (which happened a lot more often in those days) - but never particularly intimidating. This was around 1984-5.

Having said that, I have no doubt that those already spoiling for a fight would know where to go to find one, but we always managed to avoid any trouble. NOT that it has any bearing on today's news.

Enormous respect for the families who have conducted their dignified fight for the truth for 23 years. You never have and never will walk alone.

JFT96.

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 12-Sep-12 20:34:30

I can feel the rage and grief from Liverpudlians on this thread.
I so don't blame you.

SuperB0F Wed 12-Sep-12 20:42:19

It's still so deeply felt, LBE. I think we all remember, and many of us were personally affected, either through friends and family, or in a there-but-for-the-grace-of-God way. I was fifteen, and came back to the house of a boy in Formby I was friends with to see it unfolding on television. My father had gone to the game, and we didn't hear for hours that he was alright. I felt numb all day, just waiting. That boy I was talking about earlier, Kevin, came from Formby, same age as I was then. His family down the road must have been going through the same horror of waiting; for them, it has never ended sad

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 20:53:30

My bunfight comment was directed at random female.

HorsesDogsNails Wed 12-Sep-12 21:18:30

I actively boycott the s*n and I will continue to do so.

I have stood at the Hillsborough Memorial at the Shankly gates and I have been to Hillsborough and stood at the entrance to the tunnel at Leppings Lane...... Both of those are massively emotional for me. I cannot believe it has taken so long for the truth to out. It must be so hard for Steven Gerrard to see the memorial every day as his cousin was the youngest victim of the tragedy......

JFT96 YNWA

The findings are what everyone knew they would be but utterly disgraceful all the same. The level of lies and cover ups is staggering though. I sincerely hope that all those who ordered the cover up and were complicit at a senior level are swiftly brought to justice. That includes the MP who fed the lies to The Sun and the senior officers in SYP. One of whom is now Chief Constable in my county. He should resign and soon. He does not deserve to still have a job in the police force quite frankly.

As for football hooliganism in the 70s/80s it was bad. Well that depends where you lived but as a Leeds girl it was bad. The Leeds 'Service Crew' had a dreadful reputation and I can remember the city centre being declared off limits by my parents on a Saturday afternoon as can DP even though his DF used to take him to some games. Shops used to board up windows near the station and ground and there was police everywhere. Particularly if Leeds were playing a particular rival such as Chelsea. It was horrible and I am so glad we seem to have moved on from that.

Football grounds in the 70s/80s were often health and safety nightmares and death traps. I know that. I lost 3 relatives at Valley Parade but at least we know that that was just negligence. It was an old wooden stand, rubbish had built up underneath it, it just took one fag end etc etc. As tragic and preventable as it was it wasn't compounded by such a massive and disgusting cover up by those who caused it and by blatant attempts to say it was the fan's own fault they got burnt to death.

And randomfemale if I were you I'd be looking at my FIL in a whole different light. Methinks he is a lying fucker.

Dawndonna Wed 12-Sep-12 21:28:34

I was 31. Watched it on the television. I have family in Liverpool. We didn't lose anyone, we were lucky. The police were bastards, the sun were bastards, the government were bastards.

Vev Wed 12-Sep-12 21:58:00

The officials used the hooliganism excuse to cover up the tragedy to their cost 23 years too late. The sun should hang it's head in shame.

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 22:04:17

Just found this comment on the Guardian site and thought it was relevant as it shows why some members of society were so ready to believe the lies.

in the house?

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RuralRides
12 September 2012 9:09PM

How terrible it all is. But it's all of a part with a much bigger picture: the demonisation of working class people by the establishment, aided by the media.

Whether its riots, deaths in police custody, benefits claimants, strikes or the causes of the financial crisis, it's the working classes who are lazy, drunken, feckless, cheating and grasping. Or so we're told.

The report today confirms what any sensible person knows: that ordinary people are overwhelmingly decent and honest. Whenever there are extreme events, to blame them on 'the people' (usually the victims) is nothing more than an (oh so routine) attack by the powers that be. Yet listen to any news bulletin from the wonderfully impartial BBC, read any edition of any newspaper - yes even the 'facts are sacred' Guardian - and the same narrative is being pushed.

I'm not suggesting there's any kind of plot; everyone knows there's not.

BoerWarKids Wed 12-Sep-12 22:43:55

Hope this doesn't sound ageist but what strikes me is how young most of the victims were sad younger than I am now. I keep thinking about Jon-Paul, the youngest at 10, he must've been so scared, my heart hurts just thinking about it.

I'm not sure if anyone has ever, or even can, quantify the entire devastating legacy. It's not, sadly, just the 96 and their loved ones.
What of the survivors lives blighted by injuries, depression, PTSD, marriage breakdowns, and the subsequent fallout as a result of these?

I'm haunted by reading that Trevor Hicks, for months afterwards, couldn't get the taste of his daughter's vomit out of his mouth.

Sorry if I'm rambling, I've been listening to 5Live and feel really upset and emotional.

ThatVikRinA22 Wed 12-Sep-12 22:43:56

may i just point out that the majority of the police on the ground on that day will have done their level best to help people.

i know that many of the officers involved were deeply affected by what they saw that day. There is no training on how to deal with disasters such as this on a personal level, those officers have been living with the after affects of this, and some have spoken out, and good for them that they have.

i feel so so deeply for the families concerned, but SYP is a different force altogether from that of 23 years ago. I hope very much that now the truth is out that the families can start to find some peace and justice for their losses.

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Wed 12-Sep-12 22:48:45

i saw someone make a comment in the Guardian site that the Mail apparently ditched McKenzie as a columnist about a month ago.

spartafc Wed 12-Sep-12 22:48:50

and some have spoken out, and good for them that they have.
According to Newsnight - that's not the case. Apparently there haven't been any whistleblowers at all from SYP.
I know there was one SYAS employee who came forward.

ThatVikRinA22 Wed 12-Sep-12 23:27:12

some have.
i have to be very careful what i say, but some have. One retired officer gave evidence to the enquiry.

it is a very bleak day for SYP. It had to happen, its right that it has happened, but i fear that this tars the reputation of a force, my force, 23 years too late.

im disappearing back into obscurity now - i NC a while back and only reverted back so it didnt look sock puppety on these threads.....

im glad the families might now get their justice.

Tanith Wed 12-Sep-12 23:34:58

I once went to a first aid training course where Hillsborough was discussed. The trainer said that there were St. John Ambulance volunteers at the stadium, as there often are at these events. Some were cadets as young as 10 years old, fighting to save lives in a situation totally out of their control or experience.

I never believed the Sun even when the report first came out and would have boycotted them, had it not been for the fact my dad despised it and refused to have it in the house.

Something I remember, that seems to have been forgotten after the appalling lies printed in the Sun, is the fury towards all the papers, especially the tabloids, for taking and publishing photographs of the dead and dying. I wasn't very old at the time and I remember that as my first shocked realisation that the media didn't care so long as they got their story.

spartafc Wed 12-Sep-12 23:40:01

It's a shame that there's still a need for secrecy.
I suppose that's one of the reasons it has taken 23 years for the truth to come out.
I do think that for the majority of people the possibility that the reputation of SYP might be tarnished is not a prime concern - after what has been revealed today.
I do agree though, it must have been horrific for the officers working there that day. I don't see how anyone could get over it.

Dear Vicar. You really don't have to defend the current day SYP. If I remember correctly you have only been with them a couple of years or so. And I have no doubt that it is a very, very different force from 1989.

Same as WYP. No one here blames the rank and file coppers for the idiotic decision to take the Geordie Ripper tape so seriously, the same as how the junior officers at Hillsborough cannot be blamed for the actions of their senior officers. My DM's friend's husband spent years on that investigation and saw things he still cannot forget and he's been retired for years. He was powerless to influence the direction of the investigation but he still feels guilty about it.

Growlithe Thu 13-Sep-12 06:27:39

Vicar I hope that SYP is a different force than 1989.

I am finding it hard to buy the defence argued on here that junior officers with families would have wanted to keep their jobs, and were pressurised into accepting the alterations to their statements. If that is accepted as an excuse, then it is also acceptable to allow Random's FIL to keep pedalling the lies.

We are talking about the Police Force here. Surely someone who becomes a Police Officer should have certain personality traits which would give them to have a thirst for the truth and a strength in the pursuit of it. Surely a main drive for taking up a position would be empathy with and a desire to protect the innocent. I'd expect that from a Police Officer, even in 1989.

These Officers protected their own backs, from the Senior ones right down to those accepting the alterations to their statements. I'm disappointed with their lack of strength to do the right thing. Even if it was 1989. Shame on them.

I hope every Police Officer in the country studies that report as an example of how not to behave.

KenDoddsDadsDog Thu 13-Sep-12 08:10:41

Great post Growlithe.

SuperB0F Thu 13-Sep-12 08:17:44

I agree with you, and I'm glad that I know Vicar a little bit, and that is exactly the kind of officer she is. Let's hope that there are many more of them today.

SammySquirrel Thu 13-Sep-12 08:18:37

I thought the guy who runs SYP today is one of those named and shamed in the Hillsborough report as being instrumental to the coverup (in the role he had back then).

SammySquirrel Thu 13-Sep-12 08:38:23

Sorry, just read he's now chief of WEST Yorkshire Police.

KenDoddsDadsDog Thu 13-Sep-12 09:11:11

Still in charge of a police force and many more involved will still be there. Thank god for vicar and people like her.

I've read the whole thread and have looked at lots of news websites and am just horrified at the level of cover up and deceit, those poor, poor families sad

I remember watching the tv reports on the day, I was 11. I was cross initially that fans were destroying the advertising boards by tearing them down until my Dad explained why blush I am nowhere near Liverpool but this event has stayed with me since it happened.

JFT96 YNWA

VoldemortsNipple Thu 13-Sep-12 09:38:33

I've heard reports from police officers on the ground that day. It sounded like they had very little instruction and were very confused as to what was going on.

However, you only have to watch the footage to see that they could have done more from the outset.

Fans desperately trying to climb over the barriers being pushed back in. They could see the people crushed against the barriers, they could see they were dying, they could see reporters taking photos of these poor people. They still pushed them back!

When the pitch began to fill, it was the fans who took control to try and help the dying. The police tried to stop them "causing damage" when they ripped off the boards to use as stretches. Many police seemed to be walking around aimlessly.

There were police who did there level best to help. They tried to resuscitate the dead, that sat with the dying. They did their best in a bad situation.

After the event, they were led to believe that they all did a good job and it wasn't the fault of the force they belonged to. They were even compensated and offered councilling. Something the fans were denied.

It's unfortunate that todays SYP will be tarred by the actions of those in charge 23 years ago. But things have to be put right and I hope and pray that they are charged and convicted with corparal manslaughter.

stressheaderic Thu 13-Sep-12 09:54:01

The force of the boycott of the Sun is powerful in Liverpool.
I won't touch it, I won't look at its headlines, I turn over when its advert comes on, I would never go on a Sun holiday or take up any of their other offers. Same goes for most people on Merseyside, certainly those who are old enough to remember Hillsborough or who were told about it by older relatives.
Kelvin MacKenzie acted with utter disrespect with his repugnant actions and I hope he rots.

Yesterday was an emotional day here. I watched Granada Reports at 6pm and at the end, they showed a black and white reel of photos of all the victims, with YNWA playing over it. DP and I were eating dinner, and we just stopped. So many. 96 people, young and old. I hope they can now truly rest in peace.

Eggrules Thu 13-Sep-12 09:55:57

JFT96
John Alfred Anderson (62)
Colin Mark Ashcroft (19)
James Gary Aspinall (18)
Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16)
Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)
Simon Bell (17)
Barry Sidney Bennett (26)
David John Benson (22)
David William Birtle (22)
Paul David Brady (21)
Andrew Mark Brookes (26)
Carl Brown (18)
David Steven Brown (25)
Henry Thomas Burke (47)
Peter Andrew Burkett (24)
Paul William Carlile (19)
Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)
Gary Christopher Church (19)
Joseph Clark (29)
Paul Clark (18)
Gary Collins (22)
Stephen Paul Copoc (20)
Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23)
James Philip Delaney (19)
Christopher Barry Devonside (18)
Christopher Edwards (29)
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34)
Thomas Steven Fox (21)
Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)
Barry Glover (27)
Ian Thomas Glover (20)
Derrick George Godwin (24)
Roy Harry Hamilton (34)
Philip Hammond (14)
Eric Hankin (33)
Gary Harrison (27)
Stephen Francis Harrison (31)
Peter Andrew Harrison (15)
David Hawley (39)
James Robert Hennessy (29)
Paul Anthony Hewitson (26)
Carl Darren Hewitt (17)
Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16)
Sarah Louise Hicks (19)
Victoria Jane Hicks (15)
Gordon Rodney Horn (20)
Arthur Horrocks (41)
Thomas Howard (39)
Thomas Anthony Howard (14)
Eric George Hughes (42)
Alan Johnston (29)
Christine Anne Jones (27)
Gary Philip Jones (18)
Richard Jones (25)
Nicholas Peter Joynes (27)
Anthony Peter Kelly (29)
Michael David Kelly (38)
Carl David Lewis (18)
David William Mather (19)
Brian Christopher Mathews (38)
Francis Joseph McAllister (27)
John McBrien (18)
Marion Hazel McCabe (21)
Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21)
Peter McDonnell (21)
Alan McGlone (28)
Keith McGrath (17)
Paul Brian Murray (14)
Lee Nicol (14)
Stephen Francis O'Neill (17)
Jonathon Owens (18)
William Roy Pemberton (23)
Carl William Rimmer (21)
David George Rimmer (38)
Graham John Roberts (24)
Steven Joseph Robinson (17)
Henry Charles Rogers (17)
Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23)
Inger Shah (38)
Paula Ann Smith (26)
Adam Edward Spearritt (14)
Philip John Steele (15)
David Leonard Thomas (23)
Patrik John Thompson (35)
Peter Reuben Thompson (30)
Stuart Paul William Thompson (17)
Peter Francis Tootle (21)
Christopher James Traynor (26)
Martin Kevin Traynor (16)
Kevin Tyrrell (15)
Colin Wafer (19)
Ian David Whelan (19)
Martin Kenneth Wild (29)
Kevin Daniel Williams (15)
Graham John Wright (17)
Tony Bland (22) - died in 1993

Liverpudlians and supporters have proudly fought a long battle to uncover despicable untruths. Reading news reports is shocking and heartbreaking. Amends must be made.

There will always be ignorant people that will refuse to be believe what the country now knows to be the truth. They will always believe Liverpudlians are "wallowing" in their "victim status" with a side of stealing. hmm.

Reading through the report now. Shocked to find that the "pens" were added after the near disaster a few years earlier!!

Oh and I saw KMs statement. Seems he thinks hes as much of a victim in this as the fans... hmm

Lovecat Thu 13-Sep-12 11:01:54

My matchgoing experiences from 82-86 (before I moved to London) were much the same as FranticBanana's - there just wasn't that sort of atmosphere inside the ground. I'm not denying that there was violence of any kind, but we never saw it inside or felt in danger walking back from Anfield to the Pier Head to get the ferry home.

Never bought the Sun since (we were a Mirror family anyway, but before that sometimes it would sneak its way in if the shop was sold out) and never will agan - Kelvin MacKenzie can take his 'apology' and stick it somewhere painful.

Growlithe Thu 13-Sep-12 11:09:44

My brother put this on Facebook last night:

I've just got home from St George's Plateau. I was there with my brother, who was at Hillsborough on that day. He survived, but you can tell there are wounds he keeps to himself. He now is finding it difficult to take in what came out today. People he never thought would do such a thing, contributed to what he saw that day. He, they, went to watch a football match. 96 never made it home because people got it wrong. But those people never admitted to getting it wrong. They blamed people like my brother for the death and injury on that day. And they've continued to blame them for 23 years, with the collusion of government and media. 23 years of people blaming you for the death of a 10 year old, a 21 year old, all ages up to 67. Then you find out you weren't to blame, this time decent, honest people tell you. It was your accusers who were to blame. It's hard to take in. I hugged him

Pagwatch Thu 13-Sep-12 11:18:08

I wonder if your experiences are based around specific clubs. The many places I experienced trouble were not often at the bigger clubs which, by the 80s, were heavily policed.
The day I had to hide fans in my home I was living in Leyton.
The boys I knew who went to prison were part of the 'Oxford aggro'

Growlithe Thu 13-Sep-12 11:52:53

Sir Norman Bettison has issued a statement www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19583260

ThatVikRinA22 Thu 13-Sep-12 11:55:35

the current chief of SYP, David Crompton has never had anything to do with SYP prior to becoming the chief constable in April of this year.

I believe he has responded openly, and totally correctly to the report.

(and thanks bof) smile
i try.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Thu 13-Sep-12 11:58:39

I know Vicar, I said sorry, I got me Yorkshires mixed up.

limitedperiodonly Thu 13-Sep-12 12:06:31

I've just noticed that Boris Johnson is 'very, very sorry' for his comments made in 2004 blaming Liverpool fans for Hillsborough.

No doubt it was all a bit of a joke.

Luckily for him he's not interested in being Mayor of Liverpool.

Growlithe Thu 13-Sep-12 12:16:29

I can't believe Bettison is still saying the behaviour of the Liverpool fans outside the ground was a contributory factor.

They had gone to an FA Cup semi final, been delayed on the way, and were doing what any supporter would be doing, trying to get into the game. The kick off should have been delayed. It would have stopped the panic outside.

These people weren't trying to cause trouble. They'd have spent a fortune getting to that game. It wouldn't have crossed their mind that there was a safety issue inside the ground. Why would it? There shouldn't have been. And it was the job of the Police to control the situation.

This is one police officers statement that should be changed.

BTW Vicar I'm not having a go at you. I still have faith in the police. I just think those involved should have all admitted that mistakes were made, and not tried to shift the blame. Its not up to you as a police officer to defend the actions of other police officers 23 years ago.

ItsNotUnusualToBe Thu 13-Sep-12 15:06:11

To the survivors, to their families, to the bereaved: I believe you.

I am appalled that I live in a country where when 'mistakes' are made, you can tamper with/ misdirect the investigation despite tens of thousands of eye witnesses. If you are in a position of power and influence.

Yesterdays news is only a step towards the truth. I sincerely hope that those who need a more honest account of how their loved ones sufferred are able to, at last, twenty three fucking years later, begin to get the truth. The why is happenned can only come after the how and then the justice.

I believe you.

MarthasHarbour Thu 13-Sep-12 16:57:44

I was listening to five live in the car earlier, i didnt hear anything i hadnt heard yesterday but it is just depressing me so much.

Like itsnotunusual i too am disgusted to live in a country, and to have lived in that era as a teenager, where this cover up could have been allowed to happen.

I keep seeing the image of that lone ambulance, i can see it vividly and am still willing those others to get through sad

lovelychops Thu 13-Sep-12 18:11:29

Growlithe your brothers words are heartbreaking and touching. We were at the vigil yesterday, and when one of the family members told the survivors to stop blaming themselves, I looked at DP and he was sobbing next to me.

Still feel so angry and sad today.

I hope in some ways threads like this can educate those who didn't know the facts, or the reasons not to buy the Sun. I would have liked to have seen more coverage about it on MN, but hey, it's a start.

limitedperiodonly Thu 13-Sep-12 18:32:21

Sir Irvine Patnick, former MP for a Sheffield constituency, has just expressed his regret for any impression that people at the match were at fault for getting the life slowly squeezed out of them.

This is the man who's been belatedly caught for being one of the people providing so-called evidence that resulted in The Sun's abominable The Truth headline.

Apparently he didn't realise then or in the 23 intervening years. Sorry mate, the equally despicable Kelvin McKenzie got there first because he's a lot more fly than you.

People have said Patnick should be stripped on his knighthood. If he ever shows his face on Merseyside that won't be all he's stripped of.

I don't live anywhere near Liverpool and have never even been there but if I see him down my way I'm available to do the honours.

lovelychops Thu 13-Sep-12 18:42:02

Well said Limited smile

edam Thu 13-Sep-12 20:16:37

limited, he was known locally as Irv the Perv. Can't remember why but let's just say he wasn't the most popular guy in town, even before making such a despicable attack on the dead.

johnhemming Thu 13-Sep-12 20:56:32

The UK, however, has loads of cover-ups. Some happen even through court order.

SuperB0F Thu 13-Sep-12 21:05:08

Can we leave this thread for the Hillsborough families, please? If you want another one on your pet topic, you should really start your own. I think it is disrespectful to hijack this one.

SuperB0F, exactly what I was about to say.

I remember Hillsborough vaguely and for years I thought that although the Police didn't help the situation, it was the fans that were at fault. Then about ten years ago I heard more about it, read into it and realised that the subsequent cover up was a double tragedy for all the families involved. I'm so relieved that at last the truth has come out. I remember a thread on here just a few months ago where the majority of posters showed a complete lack of understanding of why LFC refuse to play a game on the anniversary of Hillsborough - perhaps now they understand that it wasn't wallowing in grief, it was showing solidarity with the families of the 96 and everyone else who was affected that day.

Kenny Dalglish attended every funeral and every inquest of the 96. When Rafa Benitez left LFC he donated £96,000 to the Hillsborough support group and visited them in person to say goodbye. They got it. Now perhaps everyone else does too.

A very, very good editorial from June 1989.

www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1152-september-2012/8991-post-hillsborough-disaster-editorial

Written from the fans point of view it shows how football fans were viewed and treated at the time, and draws a lot of conclusions that the establishment are only accepting now.

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 22:36:34

A genuine question- if it was nothing to do with there being too many fans (I.e. more there than tickets sold) then how was it there was enough people to cause a crush?

I mean, if a room holds 20 people, and 20 turn up, then its fine. But if 100 turn up, desperate to get in, with those at the back not knowing what's happening at the front, then the crush will happen.

I'm not placing blame, I'm too young to remember Hillsborough, I've just been reading this to try understand. And I'm stuck on that. Surely there must have been more there, than was supposed to have been?

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Thu 13-Sep-12 22:37:48

To the famillies the survivors and the bereaved. I believe you and i always have.
I went into town today. I live in a small town in Essex. Im nowhere near Liverpool but i was heartened slightly by the fact that piles and piles of the Sun were left untouched in our local supermarkets.
However i did buy the Mirror and the Independent today and i found out a couple of things i didnt know.
One young man lived for 4 years in a persistent vegetative state after being at Hillsborough until his feeding tube was removed in 1993.
By the time of the tenth anniversary 3 of the survivors had commited suicide and one had been in a psychiatric unit for 8 years.
Justice must be swift now. The families have waited and endured ENOUGH.

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 22:38:06

My DP is a season ticket holder, his family are all massive football fans, so I'm definitely not placing any blame or casting aspersions.

ItsNotUnusualToBe Thu 13-Sep-12 22:42:33

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964

The diagrams at the bottom of this bbc report (and I've read elsewhere) suggest that the fans were not directed into the empty pens.

EyEy Thu 13-Sep-12 22:44:25

The Establishment must be rotten from the core.

Police getting MPs to mislead the press so that their reputation remains intact. Coroner shuts down a whole line of enquiry by creating a notional time of death.

I cannot put into words how much I admire the dignity of the families for fighting the Establishment for so long to get to the truth.

As a British Citizen I am ashamed to think that such a cover-up could happen in this country. There needs to be justice. Those who conspired to denigrate the dead and to hide the truth should be held to account.

Those who altered witness statements and those who went along with false evidence under oath should face perverting the course of justice charges. Those who were rewarded by the Establishment with honours/knighthoods should have them removed because they have dishonoured everything that British people value - truth, honesty, decency.

Final salary pensions for the senior officers who failed in their public duty should be withdrawn. How dare this level of corruption be permitted and rewarded.

I am very very angry. I saw Kirsty Wark question the current Chief Constable on Newsnight yesterday and she asked him exactly what I wanted to know, which is how could take 23 years for the truth to come out. How could so many police officers sit on the knowledge that their statements/evidence had be altered so as to protect the police's reputation. How can this happen in a democratic society?

I am furious.

ItsNotUnusualToBe Thu 13-Sep-12 22:44:31

From wikipedia

The disaster happened because most of the fans entering the terraces headed for the central pens 3 and 4 as directed by the large notice pointing them that way above the tunnel. Normally a police officer or steward would direct fans away from full pens, but on that day this did not happen. There were no stewards in that area at all. The official capacity of these pens was around 2,000, but the Health and Safety Executive later found that this should have been reduced to around 1,600 as the crush barriers did not conform to the Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds 1986. It is estimated that more than 3,000 people were in these pens shortly after kick off at 3:00 pm. This overcrowding caused the fatal crush.[34][35]

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 22:49:56

Reading Wikipedia it seems like police were afraid of a crush outside, so opened a gate, and people rushed in?

And I've been doing some YouTube digging watching reports- there are videos of fans hitting the police horses, so the idea they were all gentle souls isn't true.

The whole cover up/changing statements is appalling, I'm not denying that.

edam Thu 13-Sep-12 22:54:17

Scheherezade, the FA, the football club, the police and everyone else knew the stadium was dangerous. There had been crush injuries at a previous high-profile match - fortunately for those involved, that time it was broken bones rather than multiple deaths. Tragically the authorities couldn't give a toss and allowed it to happen all over again.

Sadly there are regular stories about people being crushed to death, such as that nightclub in Northampton a few months ago. Every year it seems there are stories about pilgrims being killed at religious events. Anywhere you have crowds, you have to guide them and to have escape routes that allow people to disperse. At Hillsborough, there wasn't anywhere for people to go - they were forced up against the fences and crushed.

edam Thu 13-Sep-12 22:57:06

this is the official report that has just been released. Please read it before you make any statements that blame the dead and the injured. The independent panel has had access to all the evidence and has gone through it painstakingly. They are very clear that the fans were not to blame.

SuperB0F Thu 13-Sep-12 22:58:56

Putting it simply, it wasn't about ticketless fans storming the turnstiles (as was portrayed), but major delays in Liverpool fans arriving, due to a) roadworks on the Snake Pass; and b) trains being stopped by the police three times for passenger searches. It was decided to not delay the kick-off. This proved disastrous.

My dad remembers (having arrived by car with friends) parking about a mile from the ground. He and and his friends saw hundreds of police at that distance from the ground, ushering fans every few feet along the route, anticipating trouble, but progressively fewer as they approached the ground on foot.

There were only 23 (I think) turnstiles admitting people into the Leppings Lane end, which jammed frequently.

Inside, people were funnelled into one major entrance to the ground, as stewards were absent.

Then Dukenfield ordered a gate opened. The crush ensued. Nobody could tell they were being directed into an already over-crowded area.

That is my understanding of it.

limitedperiodonly Thu 13-Sep-12 23:01:44

Ditto superBOF from above

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 23:08:53

Sorry, I don't mean the victims were hitting horses, just the people outside the stadium trying to get in.

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 23:12:06

Fences are (were) such an obviously stupid thing, you'd think anyway.

DP wants terraces back, but I guess this is why they introduced all seating.

I've been to quite a few premiership matches, never had any problems or felt intimidated, but that could be that tickets are.so expensive now!

Growlithe Thu 13-Sep-12 23:15:22

Scheherezade

The summary of Chapter 1 of the report would, I think, answer your question:

Based on documents disclosed to the Panel, this chapter assesses the impact of the 1981 crush on crowd safety at Hillsborough. It considers the decisions taken between 1981 and 1989 by SWFC, its safety consultants, the local authority (Sheffield City Council) and the South Yorkshire Police (SYP) regarding modifications to the Leppings Lane terrace and their consequences for the safe management of the crowd.
It is evident from the documents disclosed to the Panel that the safety of the crowd admitted to the terrace was compromised at every level: access to the turnstiles from the public highway; the condition and adequacy of the turnstiles; the management of the crowd by SYP and the SWFC stewards; alterations to the terrace, particularly the construction of pens; the condition and placement of crush barriers; access to the central pens via a tunnel descending at a 1 in 6 gradient; emergency egress from the pens via small gates in the perimeter fence; and lack of precise monitoring of crowd capacity within the pens.
These deficiencies were well known and further overcrowding problems at the turnstiles in 1987 and on the terrace in 1988 were additional indications of the inherent dangers to crowd safety. The risks were known and the crush in 1989 was foreseeable.

1. In 1981 before the FA Cup Semi-Final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers there was serious congestion at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and crushing on the confined outer concourse. It resulted in the opening of exit Gate C to relieve the crush. The disclosed documents indicate that entry into the stadium was managed by South Yorkshire Police (SYP) officers on duty and Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (SWFC) stewards.
2. What followed was a serious crush on the terraces in which many people were injured and fatalities narrowly avoided. At that time lateral fences did not divide the Leppings Lane terrace into pens, and fans were able to move sideways along the full length of the terrace; others escaped onto the perimeter track through the narrow gates in the perimeter fence.
3. The disclosed documents show that police officers located on the inner concourse, between the turnstiles and the rear of the terrace, restricted access to the central tunnel under the West Stand, diverting fans to the side access points to the terrace, thus relieving pressure at the centre. Crowd density figures available to the Panel demonstrate that the maximum capacity for the terrace was significantly exceeded.
4. The disclosed documents demonstrate that, following the 1981 incident, there was a breakdown in the relationship between SWFC and SYP. SWFC refused to accept the seriousness of the incident and held SYP responsible for the mismanagement of the crowd. SYP considered that the maximum capacity for the Leppings Lane terrace, set at 10,100, was too high, a view strongly contested by SWFC.
5. On the recommendation of SYP the construction of lateral fences in 1981 created three pens, with movement between pens limited to a small gate at the head of each lateral fence. According to SYP these gates were used to manage segregation at league matches but were not ‘stewarded’ by the police.
6. From the earliest safety assessments made by safety engineers commissioned in 1978 by SWFC, it was apparent that the stadium failed to meet minimum standards under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 and established in the Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds (known as the ‘Green Guide’), 1976. Documents released to the Panel confirm that the local Advisory Group for Safety at Sports Grounds carried out inadequate and poorly recorded inspections. There is clear evidence that SWFC’s primary consideration was cost and, to an extent, this was shared by its primary safety consultants, Eastwood & Partners.
7. Following the near tragedy in 1981, Hillsborough was not used for FA Cup semi- finals until 1987. During this period the Leppings Lane terrace underwent a series of significant modifications and alterations, none of which led to a revised safety certificate. The introduction of further lateral fences created two central pens accessed via the tunnel beneath the West Stand. Recommendations to feed fans directly from designated turnstiles into each pen, thus monitoring precisely the distribution of fans between the pens, were not acted on because of anticipated costs to SWFC.
8. Consequently, the turnstile counters were rendered irrelevant. Although they provided a check on the overall numbers entering the terrace, there was no information regarding crowd distribution between pens, each of which had an established maximum capacity.
9. It is evident from the disclosed documents that SYP were preoccupied with
crowd management, segregation and regulation to prevent potential disorder. SWFC’s primary concern was to limit costs. The Fire Service, however, raised concerns about provision for emergency evacuation of the terraces. As the only means of escaping forwards was onto the pitch, concern was raised specifically about the width of the perimeter fence gates which was well below the standard recommended by the Green Guide. The gradient of the tunnel under the West Stand leading down onto the terrace also significantly breached the Green Guide’s recommendation.
10. While modifications were made inside the stadium, the issue of congested access to the turnstiles outside the stadium remained unresolved. As Lord Justice Taylor’s Interim Report noted, of the stadium’s 54,000 capacity, over 24,000 fans were channelled through 23 turnstiles feeding the North Stand, the West Stand and the Leppings Lane terrace.
11. Following alterations, the safety of the existing maximum capacity for the Leppings Lane terrace was questioned repeatedly yet the decision was taken by the Club and the safety engineers not to revise the figure.
12. From the documents disclosed to the Panel, key issues – positioning of safety barriers, elevation of the tunnel, adequacy of the perimeter fence gates – were not discussed or recorded at the annual safety inspections. Following the delayed kick- off at the 1987 FA Cup Semi-Final and the crushing at the 1988 FA Cup Semi-Final, it is evident that debriefings held by all parties were inadequate. Crucial information arising from these events was not shared within SYP, nor was it exchanged between SYP and other agencies. There is no record provided by SWFC of debriefings held between Club stewards and their managers. The Club denied knowledge of any crowd-related concerns arising from the 1987 or 1988 FA Cup Semi-Finals.

limitedperiodonly Thu 13-Sep-12 23:15:42

Shereherzade I understand it as a failure of crowd control - which is quite obscene. Police and lots of other bodies deal with crowd control every day.

You know how many tickets have been sold, you can calculate the likely number of ticketless fans who are going turn up, you know what time the trains are arriving and you can monitor the traffic on motorways.

If there are any difficulties you deal with them by deploying an adequate number of staff and creating time-absorbing diversions.

I can see that it's complicated about that but it's a job. South Yorkshire Police failed utterly.

Someone above, forgot her name - sorry - said she didn't pay much attention at the time. Neither did I. I believed the police and the Establishment. I am so angry that they caused these deaths and used me.

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 23:16:36

Bof- that's what I mean, if all the people were meant to be there, late or not, there would have been room for them.

So if they were all in the main pens, the side ones must have been obviously really empty, if they were missing 1-2000 people meant to be there?

limitedperiodonly Thu 13-Sep-12 23:17:32

Not just failure of crowd control but contempt for ordinary people attending a 'downmarket' event.

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 23:19:20

Yes limited that makes sense. I just can't believe that every single person outside the stadium, wanting to get in, was a ticket holder. Even now people turn up on the day hoping to get one on the gates.

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 23:20:13

Thanks growlithe I couldn't open the report as on phone.

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 23:23:27

- I've turned up at music festivals on the day to get a ticket at the gates.

limitedperiodonly Thu 13-Sep-12 23:23:50

Don't know for sure but I think the 24,000 people ushered though 23 gates in a short space of time all had tickets.

Then Duckenfield ordered the extra gate to be opened...

Maybe it wouldn't have happened if the kick-off had been delayed or a number of other things.

That's not for me to say. That's for him. He was in charge.

Is he as dead as those poor people now?

limitedperiodonly Thu 13-Sep-12 23:25:05

For gates read turnstiles

Scheherezade Thu 13-Sep-12 23:42:11

I watched a football focus thing on YouTube, with interviews with the mum and dad of the two young girls that died.

No words sad

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Thu 13-Sep-12 23:50:34

Not just failure of crowd control but contempt for ordinary people attending a 'downmarket' event
THIS. I totally agree!

Growlithe Thu 13-Sep-12 23:51:18

The thing with outside was:

1. Those outside had bought tickets, paid for transport. Not cheap.
2. Those outside wanted to see the game, because Liverpool FC mean everything to them, and they want them to get through to the FA Cup final and win it.
3. The kick off was not delayed.
4. Those outside would have been thinking, its getting packed out here, but it will be ok once we are inside
5. Those outside, and inside, and everyone who has ever been to a public event, would have expected it to be safe for the number of tickets sold.
6. The gate was open, Those outside would have thought 'great decision - let's get in as soon as we can because we need to see the match', here we go, this sign says go down this tunnel..... '

joanofarchitrave Thu 13-Sep-12 23:54:44

Scherezade, looking at some of the film of the event - like the Football Focus documentary linked to above - it's clear that the spaces involved were claustrophobically small. It is almost beyond belief that anyone thought that 24,000 people could safely arrive in a short time and use those spaces without extremely close attention being paid. In 4 years of use for major matches - 1981, 1987, 1988 and 1989 - there was 1 serious incident and 1 catastrophe. In the words (roughly) of Nick Hornby - 'there was no plan; they really had been riding their luck all that time.'

Growlithe Fri 14-Sep-12 00:05:27

Darkesteyes Tony Bland was indeed a man that made history. Not only was he involved in this disaster, but he suffered severe brain damage that left him in a persistent vegetative state. The consequence of this was that the hospital, with the support of his parents, applied for a court order allowing him to 'die with dignity'. As a result he became the first patient in English legal history to be allowed to die by the courts through the withdrawal of life-prolonging treatment including food and water.

Triple tragedy for this family. YNWA

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Fri 14-Sep-12 00:08:38

Oh Growlithe I have no words. JFT96 YNWA

SabrinaMulhollandJones Fri 14-Sep-12 00:47:43

I'm neither a football fan or a Liverpudlian, I'm from down south, but I remember that day so vividly. I never believed the lies in sun, even at the time - long may that boycott continue. I have shed tears over what the families and the surviving fans must have suffered. I hope they get justice now.

JFT96

CinnabarRed Fri 14-Sep-12 09:10:10

I would like, here and now, to offer my sincerest apologies to the victims of Hillsborough, their friends and families and the people of Liverpool.

Prior to the issuing of Wednesday's report, I believed the essence of the police reports.

It was inconceivable to me that the authorities would lie at all, let alone on this scale.

I didn't ever think that the Liverpool fans caused the tragedy, nor even that the vast majority heightened it. I simply accepted it was a matter of awful human error, much like the Bradford fire. But, to be honest, I didn't really think about it much at all.

Now we know the truth.

Liverpool, I am so very, very sorry.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Fri 14-Sep-12 09:12:13

It also worth pointing out that previous matches at Hillsborough used crowd control methods and filtering systems outside the ground. None of these were used on the day in question. This is why there was chaos and a crush beginning outside the ground. Duckenfield fatally ordered the gates open to counteract serious errors he had already made.

CinnabarRed Fri 14-Sep-12 09:19:02

But why weren't there crowd control methods or filtering systems on that day? I don't understand why that decisions would be made. Was it as simple as Duckenfield not understanding crowd control on a very basic level? Was it, for example, his first time in charge of such a major event? (Not trying to excuse. Just understand.)

Growlithe Fri 14-Sep-12 09:28:40

I would encourage anyone with an interest in this to have a look at the actual report. It's a hefty document but the summary is superb. It makes very 'easy' reading - not in it's content of course but in the fact that it explains everything in layman's terms. The panel have done a good job.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Fri 14-Sep-12 09:29:58

I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was his first time, but I couldn't swear to it. It's answers like this that the family want. So long as the official line was that it was the fans fault, the real reasons couldn't be fully explored.

Growlithe Fri 14-Sep-12 09:38:27

This is in the report:

13 The SYP decision to replace the experienced match commander, Chief Superintendent Brian Mole, and appoint Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield who had minimal experience of policing at Hillsborough, just weeks before an FA Cup semi-final, has been previously criticised. None of the documents disclosed to the Panel indicated the rationale behind this decision.

And this:

19. From the documents disclosed to the Panel, the management roles and responsibilities of senior SYP officers were unclear, particularly the lines of communication, decision-making and information exchange between those responsible for policing outside the stadium and the ground commander inside the stadium.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Fri 14-Sep-12 09:44:14

Thanks, I thought I read it someone.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Fri 14-Sep-12 09:44:36

*someone? SOMEWHERE!

donnie Fri 14-Sep-12 09:44:45

Coming to this thread rather late, I can only reiterate what others have said about the awfulness of the corruption involved here, quite apart from the incompetence which led to the deaths in the first place. I have also been reading past threads on a MN search on 'Hillsborough' which are interesting.

It should come as no surprise that the Government , in slimy cahoots with the Police and the press, especially the Murdoch press, conspired to suppress the truth and propogate a mass of lies whcih have taken years and years to expose. It should come as no surprise because it is still happening today. David Cameron in bed with Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson, who are in bed and chucking bungs - five figure bungs I expect - to coppers who will sell them details of Milly Dowler's mobile phone. They are all in it together. They are utter, utter cunts. They were utter, utter cunts.

Thatcher and Murdoch were determined to crucify those people, those lefties. And the police helped them doit. Like Wapping. Like the miners. Utter utter bastards of the highest order.

They should be charged with perverting the course of justice and go to fucking prison.

JFT96.

bottleofbeer Fri 14-Sep-12 10:33:24

I always feel a bit of a fraud when people apologise to this city as a whole, I wasn't directly affected. We all knew someone who lost somebody, we all knew a traumatised survivor... I simply lucked out because my family is almost entirely blue (which makes for uhmmm...interesting banter on derby day!)

I was at the vigil and the families thanked us all, and again I wondered why. But I've realised it's because we didn't question it, it was just the truth and we all knew it. It must have meant so much to them in the face of the doubters, in the face of certain Chelsea fans cheering through the minute's silence. In the face of certain Man U fans spitting on the memorial. But that's ok because the fans were just murdering scum and Liverpool wallows in self pity and enjoys it's perceived victim status.

Not so much now, eh?

When we can afford it we take our LFC mad 14 year old to matches, and I think "thank god you're a generation later because that could have been you"

We saw those children on the big screen, no different from my boy. So many times I've been involved in Hillsborough discussions in various forums, the belief in those lies in general was staggering. I'd get so bloody angry my fists would involuntarily clench with frustration and time and again I'd spell it out, as it really was. I'm still seeing stupid posts, spouting the same old shit but now I shrug, that's just your ignorance, pal. Usually from LFC haters who don't have the intelligence to grasp that this isn't a football issue. It's a human tragedy issue. Whatever team made that semi final and was allocoated the Leppings Lane end would have been the victims of Hillsborough but in the past they've told themselves their fans are/were better behaved and they brought it on themselves.

Now they're just pissing in the wind. Cranky little voices...but...but...but...

No buts anymore. JFT96.

Rhubarb78 Fri 14-Sep-12 11:28:35

bottle I know what you mean, all I felt that I did was sign that e petition but I always knew the truth and as you say, maybe thats what they are thanking us for. I havent read the whole thread (my 6 month old wont let me) but i hope to. I personally want to thank the families of the 96, they have fought for 23 years to clear the names of the fans and restore the reputation of the city. A family member of mine was there and has never gotten over it. To know that 96 people died and that some people think its your fault must be hard to live with, at least those people can now rest assured that it is there in black and white, it wasnt your fault.
Ann Williams said that lawyers told her she wouldnt get an inquest into her sons death because 'it would open a can of worms', the can is well and truly opened now, i hope she gets her inquest. JFT96

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Fri 14-Sep-12 16:18:00

And still Norman Bettison is spouting shite! His self justifying 'apology' lacked any sincerity - he needs to resign as soon as possible. Sorry just been reading the Echo in Mums & his statement really angered me - horrible man is still trying to blame fans even after the report states otherwise.

LineRunner Fri 14-Sep-12 16:34:41

Bettison's probably bricking it about his pension.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Fri 14-Sep-12 16:46:20
Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Fri 14-Sep-12 17:09:40

Thanks for the link Sammy. i remember watching it on tv back when it was originally shown 16 years ago.
Im actually half expecting itv to give it a repeat showing but i would understand if they didnt so as not to upset the families further.
However it would also help to ram home the fact even more that there HAS to be prosecutions over this and those original inquest verdicts HAVE to be quashed. JFT96 and for the survivors and their familes and friends.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Fri 14-Sep-12 17:18:10

It'll also ram home the fact that we've known the truth for a long, long time but it has been denied. I'm watching it again now. Started crying as 14 year old Adam walked into the tunnel with his dad and haven't stopped since. sad

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Fri 14-Sep-12 17:25:50

Sammy ((((hugs)))) x

MarthasHarbour Fri 14-Sep-12 17:53:14

I too remember watching that Jimmy McGovern film at the time. I also thought this week that the level of corruption is truly depressing but not surprising (depressing in itself)

I work in Manchester with footie fans of various teams. A spectacularly thick and single minded Man City fan offered an Everton fan his read copy of the Sun. Said Everton fan said he wouldnt wipe his arse with it. Man City fuckwit fan said 'what you talking about - it wasnt your team was it? you should be happy to read it!'

Seriously, that echoes bottleofbeers theory that some fuckwits think it is just a football issue. Myself (Newcastle Utd fan) and Everton fan both proceeded to tell him what an uneducated piece of shit he was (in so many words!)

This was months ago too, it is the ignorance which has always pissed me off.

JFT96

limitedperiodonly Fri 14-Sep-12 17:55:42

That Brian Reade piece is really good.

this is a contemporary report from When Saturday Comes and spot on about the eventual findings

I was going to say uncanny but there's nothing uncanny in recognising the way football fans were and still are treated because they're the kind of people who don't matter.

LineRunner Fri 14-Sep-12 18:15:16

It is becoming clear to me that Bettison appears prepared to say anything to keep his job. Now he is clarifying his clarifications.

Growlithe Fri 14-Sep-12 18:19:41

Changing his statement. Ironic

limitedperiodonly Fri 14-Sep-12 18:24:23

I don't think he can withstand this.

LineRunner Fri 14-Sep-12 18:25:57

He is clinging on to his knighthood, his job and his pension with a fierce greed tenacity.

SuperB0F Fri 14-Sep-12 18:33:01

This is a blog by a doctor who was at the match and saw the cover-up unfold. So many people knew the truth, but their voices were ignored and pushed aside.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 14-Sep-12 18:38:22

That's shocking BOF.
Like you say, so many people knew the truth but it took 23 years till it became official.
I can't imagine the frustration and anger the families have been feeling.

Growlithe Fri 14-Sep-12 18:45:40

He was on BBC before the report came out on Wednesday BOF - talking about the police debrief in the gymnasium and the ambulance service debrief after.

I had a feeling the report was going to be bigger than we imagined when they had him on saying what he was saying.

I made it 42 mins into the itv programme without crying...
Then a police interviewer asked a man if his son was drunk, and he replied "i hope so, so he didnt know he was going to die"
and then I sobbed and sobbed
sad

Thanks for posting that BOF. Absolutely disgusting but I'm not surprised.

I just hope that our Chief Cuntstable does the decent thing very soon and resigns. He isn't fit to be leading a police force. They - the decent officers I know we have - and we, the people of WY deserve better. And I hope those responsible face criminal charges. The cover up and smear campaign is absolutely unforgiveable. And all to save their own arses. Cowardly cunts!

Badvoc Fri 14-Sep-12 20:45:22

Hell be gone by next week.
That's my prediction anyway.
Am desperately sad and angry and upset by all of this.
I remember watching the news and seeing people being carried away by the players on the advertising boards.
It was surreal...
The bravery of the families of the people who died is inspiring and humbling.
JFT96
YNWA

Growlithe Fri 14-Sep-12 20:58:07

One the positive side, I feel a shift here.

You know the way that advances in DNA have now started to bring people to justice years and years after they thought they'd got away with their crimes? Well, all this documentary evidence is like the DNA of an event. Now it has been proven that with the right resources to check and cross check it can be used as such.

The net is closing in. If there were other cover ups, and there are hints to this effect, then we may just find out about them.

The Hillsborough families may have lifted the lid on a massive massive can of worms.

With the Leverson Inquiry also taking place this year, I think 2012 may be historically important for the UK for more reasons than the Olympics and the Golden Jubilee.

joanofarchitrave Fri 14-Sep-12 20:59:38

I really don't think I can watch the Jimmy McGovern drama again... it was devastating, I remember everyone who'd seen it looked a bit shellshocked the morning after.

What must it have been like actually to be there. sad

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Fri 14-Sep-12 20:59:48

Agree Growlithe. Great post.

LineRunner Fri 14-Sep-12 21:16:14

Growlithe Absolutely. That's brilliantly expressed, thank you.

VoldemortsNipple Fri 14-Sep-12 21:34:58

Jimmy McGovern's docu-drama was shown around the time of the 20th anniversary. I recorded it and then sat my three DCs down to watch it. They were 13, 10 and 7 at the time. As sad and distressing as it was, I told them they need to know what happened that day and understand what the reason for the continuing fight for justice was for. The Seven year old wandered off to play but the older two watched it all. They had many questions afterwards and my ten year old understood why they sang jft96 when he was in the c
Kop.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Fri 14-Sep-12 22:12:33

I said this on another thread but want to repeat on here. Some people have suggested that the families let it lie and that it has been so long... We all need people like the brave families to fight because it makes the Police better, the Courts better and it makes us all safer. Stephen Lawrence's family changed the British Courts. I hope this changes the press, the Police and the feeling that it is better to lie than to admit culpability.

I have spent a lot of the last couple of days thinking about the families. I hope the report gives then some measure of peace.

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold Fri 14-Sep-12 22:58:30

A while ago DH was watching Coppers on Channel 4. A couple of them spoke directly to camera (it wasnt secret filming) about their contempt towards a certain estate and the people who lived there.
There seems to be an utter contempt shown towards the working classes from the Government and most sections of the media and from some people in the police. Its part of the reason so many were ready to believe the worst of football fans. Like someone said upthread it was working class people attending a "downmarket" event. This is the kind of attitude that is still shown towards the working classes today and the people showing these attitudes need to be weeded out of these professions. It has to stop.

M0naLisa Sat 15-Sep-12 00:02:24

It was a terrible day in football history.
96 people went to a football match and never came home sad

It makes me angry when I hear/read people still say it was the fans fault angry

No it bloody hell wasn't.

I was only 3 when it happened so don't remember it but have read a lot about it and being a LFC fan its heartbreaking seeing the flowers on tv at Anfield every year knowing that what happened should NEVER EVER have happened sad

saltnpepashere Sat 15-Sep-12 08:10:55

I am so glad this report has come out now and has blasted so many myths and lies about the behaviour of the fans that day. I hope that those lying bastards are dragged over the coals for this and every detail of their lies are exposed. The police utterly failed to do their job of keeping the public safe and then lied about it. How awful for the families involved, I cannot imagine how scary it would have been being at the front of that crowd that day.

However, what I don't really understand is why zero contempt has been shown for the small but highly significant number of football fans whose animalistic behaviour in the years leading up to hillsborough meant that:

A) innocent football fans were caged in pens (the thinking at the time was that seated stadiums would ruin the atmosphere)
B) the police may have thought that there was a pitch invasion going on and therefore tried to hold back people because they didn't realise what was really going on.
C) the police/govt/media were able to orchestrate an enormous cover up and have many people believe it.

The fans were absolutely not to blame in any way for what happened that day. However, it some football fans (NOT just Liverpool fans) had not behaved so despicably before that day, it is highly likely that the hillsborough disaster would have never happened.

Growlithe Sat 15-Sep-12 08:48:47

I disagree. There was a crush in the 1981 semi final. There were no pens then, people were able to move width wise, and get out to the perimeter track through the a number of narrow gates.

It sounds as if that situation was better policed, but people were injured and fatalities narrowly avoided.

The lateral fences added later of course did not help, but if they were not there, given all the other factors, it would probably still have happened.

It was not the fault of previous hooligans. It was the fault of the FA, for picking a ground with no valid safety certificate. It was the fault of SWFC, for not installing dedicated turnstiles for each pen which would have limited the amount of people in each. It was the fault of the Ambulance Service and their slow response to the situation. And of course it was the fault of the Police and their catalogue of failures.

Yes there had been football hooliganism in this country, but that is not a reason for there to be an ingrained bad attitude of the police to all passionate football fans.

I was 21 then. I had been going to the see Liverpool at home on the Kop since I was 13. My dad wouldn't let me go to certain games, but I remember going to see them against Notts Forest, so he mustn't have thought there was any issue there.

Families went to that match. Would Trevor Hicks had taken his two teenage daughters there if there was a whiff of trouble?

Why didn't the police have the same attitude as Trevor Hicks and my dad? A sensible attitude to assessing the risk of hooliganism on a match by match basis, and reacting accordingly.

donnie Sat 15-Sep-12 08:57:53

I think perhaps I agree with Growlithe that there is a kind of shift taking place; but, going back to my earlier post, what is most appalling is the way that the government has worked in tandem with the police and the right wing press to suppress truth and propogate lies. This is precisely what happened to the Miners and also at Wapping.

MY friend's dad was a sacked printworker who went to what he thought would be a peaceful , legitimate demonstration with his wife and daughter (my friend who was about 17 at the time). What happened was that the demonstraters, who had been summarily sacked by Rupert Murdoch in his relentless quest for profit, were charged by police on horseback and loads of them ended up in hospital. My friend and her mother ran for their lives. When they went to get the numbers of some of the offending officers they saw that they had all removed their epaulettes so they couldn't be identified. They were also famed for removing their epaulettes during the Miners' strike.

And then they were dragged through the mud by the Murdoch press.

How is it it that these people can get away with it? how can this level of corruption be sustained?

Ian Tomlinson
Hillsborough
Jean Charles de Menezes
Bloody Sunday

So many more.

saltnpepashere Sat 15-Sep-12 09:35:53

I am presuming that the parents of the 2 kids who died at heysel didn't think that there would be trouble and that their children would never come back from that match. I am sure that people have inadvertently taken kids to matches where the has been hooligan trouble. Sometimes you never know what might kick off.

I agree that there were multiple people and agencies to blame, many of whom disgustingly lied and placed the blame squarely on those who were not responsible. However, If there hadn't been the need to fence in football supporters because of previous trouble and pitch invasions, then hillsborough would have been different.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Sat 15-Sep-12 09:45:14

So we have another ignorant fuckwit still pissing on the dead. This is how the lie was kept alive for 23 years, because no matter what the truth some prefer to believe the lie.

saltnpepashere Sat 15-Sep-12 09:49:50

Which particular lie is it that I am believing here?

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Sat 15-Sep-12 09:51:55

You are still trying to shift blame onto the fans. The blame likes squarely and solely with the authorities who mismanaged the event. That has now been proven. Perpetuating the myth that the fans were somehow responsible is an disgrace. Unfuckingbelievable.

saltnpepashere Sat 15-Sep-12 10:01:35

I am not suggesting the fans were to blame for hillsborough. I am suggesting that the putting up of fences to pen fans in contributed to the deaths of people that day (and it did, because if the fences had not been there people would have been able to escape) and am discussing the reasons that those pens were installed in the first place. I think they should never have put those fences up in the first place as it was a disaster waiting to happen, but given the opposition from many for seated stadiums, it is hard to see what the alternative was.

I should have known that the suggestion that each and every football fan ever to have walked this earth is not a saint, makes me an 'ignorant fuckwit'

Growlithe Sat 15-Sep-12 10:03:38

The ground did not have a valid safety certificate. Not before and not after the installation of the lateral fencing. That was not the fault of any fans, hooligans or not.

saltnpepashere Sat 15-Sep-12 10:10:44

No, and therefore the match should never have been held there, and whoever made that decision is partly to blame for 96 deaths. However, even withiut a safety certificate, in the exact same stadium, just without the fencing, people would have been able to escape on to the pitch.

Growlithe Sat 15-Sep-12 10:13:37

Look at the report and what happened in 1981. Its in there, and its important.

limitedperiodonly Sat 15-Sep-12 10:29:16

saltnpepa I don't know whether you are deliberately blaming the fans but that is what you are doing.

I wasn't even born when this happened. I am so desperately sad about it sad Im sat here nearly crying. I hope family and friends get the answers they deserve.
Can any one tell me where I can read about it?

VoldemortsNipple Sat 15-Sep-12 10:40:35

There were defiantly pockets of the country in the 1980s that "caused to much trouble" for Thatchers government. The dockers and factory workers of Liverpool, and the mining communities of the north east were constantly vilified as feckless wastes of space, only interested in causing trouble. In reality they just wanted to work and provide for their families. They were not scared to kick up a fuss and fight for their rights. They certainly didn't take things lying down.

Can you imagine taking a group of children to the beach to find that shops would close in fear of these children looting the shop. Being tailed by security guards because they heard your accent. Constant referrals on tv about scousers being thieves and scoundrels. This was my childhood. A young well behaved and polite child being treated like scum for setting foot outside Liverpool.

This was the climate when Hilsborough happened. This is the reason that the city closed ranks around the families and the survivors. We knew the lies to be true, because we had been treated this way for years. The police that day were not worried about football hooligans causing trouble, they were worried about scousers causing trouble. By 1989 they had been drip fed for years that scousers, and therefore Liverpool fans were trouble. I find it hard to believe that the aftermath of the initial tragedy would have had such devastating consequences if it had been a southern team.

SuperB0F Sat 15-Sep-12 10:42:55

I'd watch the YouTube link of Jimmy McGovern's reconstruction posted up the thread: it's based on known facts and testimony. It's not an easy watch though.

I agree that the police and authorities had wholly responded to the perceived problem of hooliganism (which was never a normal feature of most football games, especially 'family' ones like this semi-final) in a way which was only ever likely to exacerbate trouble and would almost inevitably end in tragedy. You simply cannot treat the vast majority of football supporters as though they are animals, and expect crowd safety not to be compromised.

VoldemortsNipple Sat 15-Sep-12 10:45:21

We new the lies to be lies!

VoldemortsNipple Sat 15-Sep-12 10:46:37

Or even we knew the lies to be lies

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Sat 15-Sep-12 11:32:32

CherryCheesecake as well of the film linked up thread, which is accurate, you read the Hillsborough Report itself. There is a summary of the events starting at page 7 and is very well written and easy to read (ie not official gobbledygook type English).

saltnpepashere Sat 15-Sep-12 11:41:18

Why the need to refer to 'football fans' as one homogenous grouP who all act the same? The vast majority of fans at this time were good, law abiding people who just enjoyed a good game of football. But there was a group of 'fans' whose behaviour in the 70s and 80s totally ruined it for everyone else.

saltnpepashere Sat 15-Sep-12 11:48:07

And it was because of those 'fans' that those death trap fences were installed.

edam Sat 15-Sep-12 11:49:04

When Jimmy McGovern's film came out, there were yells of 'trial by media' - as if the victims hadn't been tried and wrongly convicted by the Sun, ffs. Now we know he was right and the film was justified.

Growlithe Sat 15-Sep-12 11:49:30

I think that was my point Salt - why did the police not take manage the risk of trouble on a match by match basis?

VoldemortsNipple Sat 15-Sep-12 12:03:21

Ok let's refare it to 9/11. We know that the terrorists were Muslim. We know there are pockets of Muslims who spout the beliefs of the terrorists. However the vast majority of Muslims are law abiding citizens who are kind and caring who strongly disagree with the actions of terrorists.

So what is the right way to deal with it? Do we tar all Muslims with the same shitty stick. Of course we don't because that is wrong.

Football fans were tarred with the same shitty stick as the hooligans looking for trouble. Nowadays, its different. There are still hooligans who like to go to matches and cause trouble. We use police survelence (sp) to keep track of known trouble makers, anybody causing trouble inside a ground is usually issued with a lifetime ban.

edam Sat 15-Sep-12 12:04:35

BOF, thank you for posting the link to the BMJ blog - very moving. Stunning detail that the impromptu death certificates he pinned to the dead were removed - wonder if that was due process (replacing impromptu certificates with proper ones) or already a cover up - replacing the findings of a doctor who was there on the spot with doctors who weren't there and were influenced by the official view of the fans?

CinnabarRed Sat 15-Sep-12 15:01:43

One thing that has really struck me after reading the details of the Hillsborough Report is just how bloody the '80s were in terms of preventable human tragedies - the Bradford Stadium fire, Kings Cross, the Herald of Free Enterprise, the Manchester airport disaster, Hillsborough - and those are just the ones that come to mind without thinking.

The '90s and '00s have been far safer. The '90s rail disasters marked a systemic failure in what used to be British Rail, but even there the improvements made have been wholesale.

Next time I hear someone complain about health and safety gone mad, or the Human Rights legislation - I will remember Hillsborough, and an awful time when certain lives were counted as inconvenient and expendable.