The police seem to be unwilling to investigate allegations of rape. Why?

(152 Posts)
Solopower Sat 09-Jun-12 15:46:19

It seems that the police are still not taking rape seriously as a crime. Either they don't believe the victim, or they just think it would be too difficult to prove - but why are they letting (mainly) women down like this?

Solopower Sat 09-Jun-12 15:49:51

How many local police forces have a dedicated team of trained people ready to deal with the aftermath of an allegation of rape? I mean as well as the detectives there should be medical people, psychologists and counsellors on hand, mostly female, as this is a crime that affects mostly women and children.

Shouldn't every police force have a team like this?

And why is the conviction rate so low (7%?)?

Putthatbookdown Sat 09-Jun-12 17:11:49

Most police forces do have specially trained officers-one male and one female will interview both parties. It is not the police but juries who do not convict: the police may well catch up with a rapist but cannot influence a jury. Anyone accused of a criminal offence has to be proven gulity on the basis of evidence : as there are rarely any witnesses to this crime it is one person's word against the other.To make things worse most victims know their attacker -which can be tricky. Also the police will consider the risk to society as a whole with all crimes -hence they will spend months tracking down drugs dealers but say a woman complaining about her ex will not attract the same attention Ultimately it is society to blame . Also rape attracts a stiff penalty and juries will not convict unless there is sufficient evidence-in fact all juries are directed to acquit if there is insufficient evidence. To prove rape the attacker must know the victim did not consent and carried on regardless : this has to be established before a charge can be made. I blame society.

ThatVikRinA22 Sat 09-Jun-12 17:21:28

the force i work within has a specially trained team - though they are not always working when we need them. It is an area i would like to get into.

i have encountered some seriously troublesome views within CID when i have worked on alleged rape cases, though not so much in uniformed officers.

that said - the case in point is a one off and i cannot seriously believe that this (as in the article) happens as a matter of course.

I did quite extensive work with a psychologist from rape crisis - and rape unfortunately is horribly difficult to prove from a police point of view, and often the CPS decide not to run a case if there is little chance of conviction.

Putthatbookdown Sat 09-Jun-12 17:23:17

The law is an ass. Do you remember years ago the guys that broke into the vicar's house nearly killed him and raped his daughter? Then the maximum penalty for rape was life but the attacker only got a few years. I mean he should have got the maximum as they broke into someone's home and raped a person sitting quietly at home. I cannot think of a more "unwilling"victim. I think the original reason was robbery which is bad but lets leave it at that. No one should be hurt-if they are then the max sentence should be given. Perhaps society care more about money than people

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 17:35:41

putthatbookdown what do you think about what the linked article says about the police?

Incidentally (and related) there was some very interesting evidence from brian paddick at the leveson enquiry. He said that when he was the assistant thingy top brass type, he was concerned about rape and the met ordered an enquiry/report into the way rape was handled by the met. He said that the content of the report was that the met were failing badly, it was a really damning report. Apparently the original document was ordered to be watered down significantly, to make it less damning. And then it was quietly shelved and not released to anyone.

Absolutely appalling and the actions of the officers in the article are disgraceful but unfortunately not that surprising.

It is well known that there are fundamental issues in investigation of sex crimes around the world and the UK is no exception. Look at the different levels of "no criming" rape reports around the UK and you will see straight away that something is amiss.

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 17:36:43

And clearly the conviction rate is going to be low if the police aren't investigating properly.

putmybookdown no rape victims are willing.

Putthatbookdown Sat 09-Jun-12 17:57:34

I do not mean that rape victims are willing : I merely pointed out that even in an extreme case where a house was broken into and the evidence is 100% clear that this was rape even then the punishment was not that harsh. Hence if a woman in a less clear cut scenario accuses a man of rape she is going to stand less chance. I have been on a jury in such a case and 2 of my friends were raped. I have seen the reality of it all and the defence will always try to infer the victim was willing to get the guy off. Sadly juries seem to fall for this. No victim is willing. My friends weren't. My friend was raped at a party by her fiance's "friend" She was asked the most ridiculous things like why did she go into the room with him -it was where the coats were. All this was done to plant a doubt in the mind that she was asking for it somehow. The law then permitted such idiotic things backed by some of the judges no doubt

Putthatbookdown Sat 09-Jun-12 18:05:17

Rape is about power.Remember that

mirry2 Sat 09-Jun-12 18:10:42

Now that that DNA evidence means that rapists can't deny that sex took place, they will say the victim was willing and that they believed she or he gave consent. Sadly juries seem to believe them.

Solopower Sat 09-Jun-12 18:18:18

Putthatbookdown I agree 100% that society is to blame - for the attitudes of the police, juries and judges and for the fact that rape happens at all.

As an example, it used to be permissable in court to show as evidence for the defence what a woman was wearing. Is this still allowed? On its own, immediately, just allowing that as evidence sends a message to the jury that it is relevant what the woman wore, and could even mean she was to blame for what the rapist did to her. How can that ever be the case?

But how can we change our culture?

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 18:22:27

The article linked is about the police mishandling rape cases.

Clearly if the police are not doing their job properly it will be difficult to bring successful prosecutions.

kirrinIsland Sat 09-Jun-12 18:22:32

I don't think it's a case of "sadly juries seem to believe them" it's that juries must be convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that a rape has been committed before they can convict, and in a lot of cases the "evidence" is one person saying it was consensual and the other saying it wasn't - it's hard to be convinced beyond all reasonable doubt in such cases, which is why they often don't even get to court.

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 18:24:01

In fact when cases go to court the conviction rate is similar to other crimes at over 50%.

It is the initial handling of complaints and evidence gathering that are problematical.
Police officers treating victims with suspicion.
"No criming" valid complaints.
All that stuff.

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 18:25:17

Recent cases where people were found not guilty include a man who claimed that he did not speak English and thus could not understand that she was saying no.

Certainly there are plenty of cases that seem to indicate that juries are willing to stretch their credulity enormously.

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 18:27:46

A case on here also where a jury believed that a young woman went down an alleyway to have anal sex with a stranger during her work lunch break.

Some of the stories are just preposterous.

there are issues all the way along the chain.

i would have thought addressing the failings with the police would be a good start though.

Oh yes and not doing things like prosecuting women for "falsely retracting" rape accusations.

Solopower Sat 09-Jun-12 18:40:28

Agreed, SardineQueen.

How can this police culture be changed? What interests me is why it's not their default position to believe a woman who comes in saying she has been raped. If someone knocked on my door and said 'I've been attacked' I would take them at their word. It doesn't seem as if the police give the woman the benefit of the doubt but that they start off by suspecting her of making it up.

In fact, surely it shouldn't matter whether they personally believe her or not. Don't the police have to follow it through in the first instance, regardless, right until all lines of enquiry come to a dead end? I understand that some of the time they are not even doing this.

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 18:43:10

I guess because the police are people and are thus as prone to believing "rape myths" as anyone else.

What i find confusing is why someone who is not on the side of raped women would apply to work in that area of the force.

Solopower Sat 09-Jun-12 18:50:04

Well I think it's unrealistic to expect the police to change their culture, so they need someone in charge who takes the lead on this. The problem is that I'm not sure anyone thinks it's important enough to spend resources on training police to deal with rape cases. sad

When things go wrong with the police, generally they investigate themselves and decide that they are not to blame, so at least something is being done about these police officers (in the article).

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 19:04:01

Thing is the article is taking about officers from the sapphire specialist rape unit.

The people who work in there are supposed to be specially trained to deal with these cases. And instead they are doing all this shit. They have been trained.

It's so weird.

Solopower Sat 09-Jun-12 19:58:26

VicarInaTutu thinks they are the exception, not the rule. I hope so.

But I still think there is something about crimes against women that doesn't elicit the same amount of sympathy/empathy/understanding or, more importantly, action to find the perpetrators.

Is the attitude of the police to male rape any different?

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 20:42:46

It keeps happening, over and over and over again though.

I don't know what the police attitude to male rape is, have never seen any reports or read anything in the papers. I wouldn't like to guess.

ThatVikRinA22 Sat 09-Jun-12 22:46:08

i think if you actually had to weed out the number of allegations that turn out not to be true you might well understand why the police default position on most things - not just rape - tends to be believe no one.

that said, when i have worked on an alleged case of rape our uniformed officers (of which i am one) is brilliant.

it tends to be CID that have to pick through the evidence and so they are the ones that often weed out the liars, and there are those women out there who lie, for whatever reason. i know its difficult to grasp....i know. but its true.

so its difficult. we have a brilliant and dedicated team of officers who deal solely with rape and serious sexual offences in my force. Of the cases they get, most are true, and most are believed.

i do not accept that the story in the OP is the norm - it most certainly is not. its quite insulting actually to all those officers out there who work tirelessly and ceaselessly to bring about convictions for rape.

i am almost - almost -at the point of hiding any thread with the word "police" in the title, because the injustice of what people actually believe of most police officers is just distressing when you know you work your arse off, you give your own time, you take the time to do the extra training and the extra work load, just to get slated time and time and time again by people who actually, when it boils down to it, know diddly squat about what a real police investigation entails.

now im off to bed. gnite.

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 23:08:18

The rate of false reports of rape is in line with the rate of false reports of other crimes. ie low

Vicar after warboys, reid, and now this, I think it's reasonable to question WTF is going on in there.

This case is of 2 officers in the sapphire specialist rape unit acting against victims. A few years back reid and warboys (warboys also many women reported to the sapphire unit). To say it's a few bad apples is just not right. Say that and nothing will ever be done to improve things.

ThatVikRinA22 Sat 09-Jun-12 23:31:44

if you believe that false reporting on crime is low then i suggest you spend a week working within the police.

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 23:34:00

Or I could choose to believe the figures compiled by the government.

SardineQueen Sat 09-Jun-12 23:36:48

Certainly false claims of crimes like mugging, and the exaggeration of loss in theft in order to claim insurance are higher than for other crimes. Where there is the possibility of financial gain.

This does not apply to rape.

You sound as if you think a lot of women who report rape a lying. I find that disturbing.

BasilBabyEater Sat 09-Jun-12 23:41:47

Vicar, false reporting on rape is betwen 2 and 6%.

Just because individual police officers are as steeped in rape myths as anyone else, doesn't mean tht women are falsely alleging rape in vast numbers.

It just means that police think they are and therefore don't bother to investigate properly.

I'm sorry but I don't think you have the right to be annyoed about police being criticised for their handling of rape cases. It is disgraceful. Well over 90% of women who report rape, are telling the truth, but most of those cases don't get to court because the police don't believe them and therefore don't investigate them.

Someone here once mentioned an officer in Boston or Chicago I think it was, who had a 95% conviction rate and she got this by getting rapists to confess (not by torture!) Who was it and who is this woman, I think we could all learn from her.

mirry2 Sat 09-Jun-12 23:59:07

My own experience is that the police were brilliant. I was involved in a high profile case and have nothing but admiration for how it was handled by the rape unit police women (forgotten their name now). The court equally supportive. Let down by the crown prosecution service. I won't say more as it may out me.

ThatVikRinA22 Sun 10-Jun-12 00:21:13

actually i do believe most reports of rape are true - and i think the way uniform handle them properly.

we have in our force a dedicated team who do alot to dispel the rape myths within my force and they do dedicated training of all new recruits because there is alot of pre concieved bull shit out there thats true - but i do find it insulting to assume that all police officers are corrupt or do not believe the victim.

i dont know - maybe im just naive - but i am not cynical and i do believe everyone with everything, my default setting is believe, and then investigate.
i find your assumption of me insulting sardine - i have given up my own time to work with rape crisis.
The areas of this work that interest me, and that i have personal experience of as a victim are rape, domestic violence and child abuse.

so i find your assumptions of me disturbing.

what i am saying is that alot of people lie to the police, not necessarily about rape but on many other issues, - the truth usually lies somewhere inbetween what they tell you and what the suspect tells you. Unless you do this job then how can you just dismiss what i am saying? i have no interest in lying on here - im anonymous!

i have heard some things, while on investigations, from officers, that disturb me. and i have said so. but rape is incredibly incredibly difficult to prove much of the time - if the suspect admits sex happened then foresics are no use - it comes down to one word against another, and very often, as sad as this is, the CPS will not run a case with little or no chance of conviction.

that is not to say that reporting should be discouraged or is useless. but i do think that just to say generally that the police are useless, or even as in this case, criminally negligent, is far from the mark, generally speaking.

Putthatbookdown Sun 10-Jun-12 08:00:46

Right let's see this from another angle Eg I am a shopkeeper and someone runs off with some goods from my shop. I phone the police. They come round and say "What were you doing with those things on display?" or something similar You would not be very pleased . So why when rape occurs is the victim treated so unsympathetically treated ? Answer that!!! If a car crashes into another would someone say "Well, you should not have been driving . along that road , at that time ect" No noone would say that would they? See what I mean?

Solopower Sun 10-Jun-12 10:01:30

All Vicar is saying is that not all police react unsympathetically, and a lot work very hard indeed to make the world a better place.

Surely we would all agree with that?

Imo as with all organisations, it's the minority who are actually criminal/criminally negligent, and the majority who maybe don't think too deeply about things and just go with the prevailing culture. No malice but no real thought either. Just doing their job as they are told to do it.

It's the majority culture we have to change and that means changing society. How do we do that??

edam Sun 10-Jun-12 10:10:23

The two cases of incompetent and malevolent officers being investigated at the moment are horrifying. Three YEARS after Warboys, when it finally came to light that the police were ignoring rape victims, and the police promised to take rape seriously, we have two more officers lying about rape victims, forging documents and allowing yet more rapists to go free. WTF?

It's all very well saying most officers are decent human beings who try to do a good job - clearly there are some who are not and there is a culture that allows them to get away with lying and harming victims. This is not a couple of bad apples. We need a McPherson report on institutional sexism.

Solopower Sun 10-Jun-12 10:27:00

We certainly need some external body to investigate. The police cannot police themselves.

kirrinIsland Sun 10-Jun-12 10:35:03

putthat you do, of course, make a valid point. But is there any evidence that the police in general are saying that? It the defence lawyers that come up with that stuff in an attempt to discredit the victim and get their client off. And they may well know that their client is guilty.
It's the cps that decide not to prosecute, and that often come down to what vicar said ^ if the suspect admits sex took place then forensics are useless, it his word against hers, and you just can't convict on just that.
The article is damning and it does suggest that attitudes need to change, but to suggest that all police everywhere are the same as the 2 mentioned in the article is grossly unfair to officers who are working tirelessly help victims of sex crimes.
It is mostly not the police that decide not to pursue a case, and it is mostly done because there is no chance of conviction not because the victim isn't believed.

SardineQueen Sun 10-Jun-12 12:00:06

Look at the reid case
Look at the warboys case
Look at the different rates of no criming rape around the country
look at complaints about bad practice by sapphire specialist officers wrt warboys victims
there is evidence that something is amiss
If only the report that was ordered while brian paddick was there had been released, we would know a lot more.They covered up their ineptitude, they changed the report and then shevled it

NormaStanleyFletcher Sun 10-Jun-12 13:01:54

While I agree with Vicar that there are some fantastic police officers out there, this does seem to point to a problem (with the culture?) within the Saphire Unit.

There are meant to be the rape specialists.
They were taken under central control over the Warboys/Reid fiascos
They were meant to be under closer supervision

And still there are officers closing down rape investigations and pretending that the decision has been made by cps, or that the victim has withdrawn their complaint.

I am glad they have been caught. I hope that this leads to a proper overhaul of the unit, and that some improvements can be made.

BasilBabyEater Sun 10-Jun-12 13:11:12

Actually I don't think you need to change society to change the culture of an organisation.

Obviously, for all orgs, they draw their workers from wider society and so will have people who have bucket-headed ideas about a range of issues. But if an organisation makes it clear what its ethos is and that it will not tolerate certain things within it, then that culture is developed and grows.

The public sector and charities have been very successful in doing this. Obviously there are always gaps, but I've worked for companies where racism, for example, would simply not be tolerated. Sexism is a harder nut to crack because it's still socially acceptable or unnoticed. You can change orgs without changing society though, if you couldn't, masses of org just wouldn't be the sort of places they are.

I do think that the police (and the FA) use "but society is sexist/ racist/ whatever" as an excuse to wash their hands of their responsiblity as organisations, to promote decency within their organisations. Fobbing it off onto the rest of society, is basically saying: "when the world has changed and the messiah has arrived, then we'll implement policies and structures which mean we'll be treating all sections of the community properly. Until then, we refuse to take any responsibility whatsoever, for pro-actively implementing policies and an ethos which will ensure that our culture means this shit won't happen any more, we're just going to carry on being nobs".

I'm not convinced.

Solopower Sun 10-Jun-12 13:34:02

Yes! I hope you're right, BasilBabyEater - and I'm sure you are.

After all, change has to start somewhere.

Putthatbookdown Sun 10-Jun-12 17:49:05

I think it is a good job they have been caught up with as this is a failing service albeit in just ONE area of the country so not overly worried. On the other hand it is the Met and it is of concern that in such a large place there are such failings. I cannot believe the Met des not have the experience to deal with crime as a large city has plenty to deal with but could believe they do not have the number of officers- a different issue.As far as the legal profession is concerned lawyers will defend their clients BUT it is in no-one's interests that a serial offender is let loose. I bet if you are poor, unemployed , of a certain racial origin etc the system will let you down anyway Has anyone broken down the figures?

pattercakes Tue 19-Jun-12 16:28:45

Date rape. One problem is juries are told not to convict when it is one persons word against another. So the CPS tend not to prosecute. New thinking is needed

CrownPrincessOhDearNigel Wed 20-Jun-12 14:01:50

Totally agree with ViaTutus post at at 12:22.

CrownPrincessOhDearNigel Wed 20-Jun-12 14:04:09

Solopwer - we do hve an independant body to investigate us - the IPCC

ALISONJAYNE Thu 02-Aug-12 18:49:43

it is not disturbing to think that people make up lies about being raped, because i am a mother of a 15 yr old boy who has gone through hell after being accused of it by a jealous ex girlfriend, we have gone through months of emotional torture and so has he and he keeps getting rebailed. we know he is innocent, we believe him as we know our son. we find out in october whether they will charge him but he is innocent and this girl is very sick to lie about something so very serious. my son is in bits afraid to go outside the door!! no support for him though so YES women, girls they do LIE!

sancerreity Sat 04-Aug-12 12:01:26

I think the problem is that because of it's nature there are often no witnesses to rape.A juror may believe it is probable that a women was raped, he might believe it is very likely she was raped, but that's not good enough.He has to believe beyond ALL reasonable doubt and that is a very high threshold when there are no impartial witnesses to testify

Denise34 Sun 05-Aug-12 17:11:38

If the police don't question whether the rape really took place, the courts certainly will.

FastidiaBlueberry Tue 07-Aug-12 20:48:17

Actually alisonjayne, there's a 90%+ chance that your son did it. The rate of false allegations of rape is extremely low and men have a much stronger motive for lying about rape, than women do.

All rapists tell their mums they didn't do it.

kimjoy Wed 08-Aug-12 11:15:08

police like getting convictions. Date rape is difficult to get a conviction on

FastidiaBlueberry Wed 08-Aug-12 23:04:15

Yes, especially if you don't look for evidence or investigate in any way at all

ALISONJAYNE Tue 21-Aug-12 10:02:18

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ALISONJAYNE Tue 21-Aug-12 10:17:49

and they have been investigating since april now and the girl whos doing this is sick and insensitive to women you are really raped!! and when it comes back that theres no charge i will be pressing charges on her and taking her to court for her false allegations, she will not get away with what she has put my son through i can assure you!!

NameGames Tue 21-Aug-12 13:14:28

Bindell and Townsend had a piece in the Observer at the weekend on the Met's Saphire unit.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne Tue 21-Aug-12 19:50:18

AlisonJayne, just to say I am so sorry - as the mother of sons I completely understand your anguish - wishing you and your poor boys the very best - hope it is all soon sorted for him sad sad sad

ALISONJAYNE Tue 21-Aug-12 20:48:49

thankyou Mrs Guy, we are struggling to cope but we will get through for our sons sake, its been the worst time of our lives and he has been through hell and will need help afterwards as i expect his view of females now is very low and id hate for this to ruin his life. Rape is terible and should be properly investigated and we are glad they are doing everything and we understand, but he is going through hell i have cried buckets, my lovley son up against this nasty girl but we are strong as he is innocent and god is good and i believe truth will come out thankyou for ur kind words

MrsGuyOfGisbourne Tue 21-Aug-12 20:53:54

AlisonJayne, just sending you hugs, and your lovely boy is lucky he has you to support him - please stay strong.

ALISONJAYNE Tue 21-Aug-12 21:04:03

I will, i have too, just want my boy back happy again not afraid to go outside the door! i will let you know update when we go back and find out. my prayes will have been answered then and i will never moan about anything again as its nothing compared to this. its not always the young girls we need to protect theres a lot of sick people out there as well. thankyou

Childrenofthestones Wed 22-Aug-12 09:14:00

Alisonjayne, I don't know you or your son but for what it is worth, I thought fastidiablues comment was disgusting.
Statistically she/he may or may not be right, but to throw that line at you when you are going through it all is callous in the extreme.
Good luck with your boy.

niceguy2 Wed 22-Aug-12 09:46:21

And why is the conviction rate so low (7%?)

Several reasons (and I'm not condoning these, just stating them as I see it)

1) Rape by stranger is rare. The majority of rapists are known to the victim. And by it's very nature usually no-one else is there meaning there are no witnesses and it often comes down to his word against hers.

2) Forensic evidence is often of little value. The man isn't disputing he had sex, just that it was consensual. Unless he beat her to a pulp, he will simply argue any DNA gathered is as a result of consensual sex. Ripped clothing will be put down to the heat of the moment.

3) Victims often do not report the rape straight away for a variety of reasons. Meaning any physical evidence is often gone and plenty of time for the rapist to get their story straight.

4) Because of the adversarial nature of our court system, the victim has to relive her ordeal again, retelling the moment again and again whilst being cross-examined by a hostile barrister. Any hesitation or doubt is pounced upon as the victim lying.

5) Any conviction must be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Given 1) and the lack of 2) & 3), juries hands are practically tied.

In that sort of context it's probably not that the police don't want to convict a rapist but more they are possibly more realistic on the chances of conviction.

One thing I do think would help matters is if anyone is proven to have falsely claimed rape then the book should be thrown at her. It's people like that who make it 10x harder for genuine victims.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne Wed 22-Aug-12 09:57:55

niceguy - well put.
If rape accusations could be fast tracked, (like they managed with teh riots last year ) with anonymity for both parties this would help immeasurably.
I am disgusted that every man accused of rape appear to be convicted by the 'mumnset jury' - those who are signed up to the 'we believe you' thread - on the basis of no knowledge of the detail - should be barred permamently from jury service.

ShirleyKnot Wed 22-Aug-12 10:05:39

The reason Mners believe rape victims is because the amount of "false" rape charges is so very tiny. About the same for any crime actually.

And I am literally LOL at your crack about jury service. HAhahaha!

NameGames Wed 22-Aug-12 10:24:04

"In that sort of context it's probably not that the police don't want to convict a rapist but more they are possibly more realistic on the chances of conviction.". Doesn't really explain the behaviour reported In the article I linked to. Or things like the lack of early investigation and intervention in the Rochdale scandal does it?

I agree that the points you made can be a part of the low conviction rate. Except for 5. Juries frequently convict in cases where it is the case of a witnesses word. They just need to believe the victim but find the accused implausible. I think this is where our culture really harms women. Things like Galloways - "in the sex game" comment illustrates the assumption of consent to sex that society holds. If, as a society we understood that consent is an active thing not a passive one, if we actually wondered - hold on, how did you know she wanted sex? Instead of, how would you have known she didn't want sex? - I think there would be a lot more justice in rape cases without any need to change anything else.

niceguy2 Wed 22-Aug-12 11:31:49

Yes but NameGames, there are no witnesses. So the jury cannot convict based upon the defendant's word alone. It's the way our court system works.

It would be incredibly dangerous to have a system where the victim's word is given more credibility than the accused's.

As for Galloway, the guy has always been an idiot and it is a feature of democracy that idiots will always say what they want regardless of how unpalatable their words are. I don't for a minute think his opinion reflects most people in this country. Just in the same way that Nick Griffith's is a racist but just because he opens his mouth doesn't mean we have a huge problem with racism.

Can the police do better? I'm sure they could and should. It's how they do so which is the difficult question to answer.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne Wed 22-Aug-12 11:47:30

Clearly in any situation where there are no witnesses or other evidence, ther cannot be a safe conviction. That's just life, cannot expect the police to be able to do anything. Last week a guy drove inot my car. Thee were no witnesses, his word against mine, so how can I establish his fault? I can't - its just bad luck, chalk it up to experience and try to avoid situations like that in the future.

ShirleyKnot Wed 22-Aug-12 11:50:19

So are you saying then that rape can never be proven as there are no witnesses? And that all rape convictions are basically unsafe?

MrsGuyOfGisbourne Wed 22-Aug-12 11:53:50

If it is agreed sex has taken place, and the disagreement is whether the man believed there was consent, then how can you arbitrate as to who is telling the truth?

NameGames Wed 22-Aug-12 11:55:26

niceguy the victim is a witness. The credibility of any witness or defendant is decided by the jury. That is the way our court system works for all crime. I'm saying juries would find rapists' excuses much less credible if society generally (and so most juries) didn't subscribe to the idea that women are in a general state of concent to sex. They would be asking themselves "how did he know she wanted to?" rather than "did she really say no?". And I think that would lead to a lot more justice.

NameGames Wed 22-Aug-12 11:58:36

Courts decide on all sorts of cases where there are no witnesses apart from the victim. Rape is not unique. Theft, assault, criminal damage. These are frequently taken to court without other witnesses or forensic evidence.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne Wed 22-Aug-12 11:58:53

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ShirleyKnot Wed 22-Aug-12 12:06:33

Can you answer my question please? I'll post it again.

So are you saying then that rape can never be proven as there are no witnesses? And that all rape convictions are basically unsafe?

MrsGuyOfGisbourne Wed 22-Aug-12 14:44:04

If it is agreed sex has taken place, and the disagreement is whether the man believed there was consent, then how can you arbitrate as to who is telling the truth?
How you suggest a jury decides?

ShirleyKnot Wed 22-Aug-12 15:03:14

Are we playing a game of asking each other questions and replying with questions?

Meh. I can't even be arsed.

ALISONJAYNE Wed 22-Aug-12 22:04:15

childrenofthestones i agree the comment was nasty and no need for it. i have a son and two daughters and im always there to protect them but i never thought id have to protect my son from a girl, thats what im doing now though! and its very sick and yes it makes genuine rape victims less likely to get convictions, so she is very silly girl.

Margerykemp Thu 23-Aug-12 12:55:04

Maybe trail by jury isn't a good idea for rape trails

RubixCube Thu 23-Aug-12 15:44:18

It happens.I'm proof.I was not believed because of what i was wearing.I said no quite a few times.But they made me feel awful.I was underage that didn't matter either

ALISONJAYNE Thu 23-Aug-12 16:02:01

i know it happens and im very sorry it happened to you truly x i have two daughters as well as my son, but all im saying is there are some false accusers out there too, i know coz my son is going through it real bad and i think it makes it tougher on real rape victims like you to get the real rapists put away, thats why police must investigate fully and they are in my sons case, it has been going on 8 months now but we understand why but again he is innocent .

niceguy2 Thu 23-Aug-12 17:19:33

So are you saying then that rape can never be proven as there are no witnesses? And that all rape convictions are basically unsafe?

No, what I'm saying is that our courts require in criminal cases for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the offence took place.

It is not the job of the defendant to prove his/her innocence. In other words it is down to the prosecution to prove rape happened.

So if there is no other evidence available and the whole thing boils down to one person saying there was consent and another saying there was not. Then I can't see how there is a case.

What I think is dangerous is for juries to start with the premise that a woman should be automatically believed more than a man. As Alisonjayne's example shows, false allegations can & do happen. Would this help her son if the police & juries put more faith in the woman's words just because she's a woman?

Innocent until proven guilty. I've been arrested myself for a crime I didn't commit. Let me tell you that when you are sat in a cell for something you didn't do, you quickly realise the value of this principle. And as hard as it is, I can't see any justification for watering down this principle just to secure a higher conviction rate. Because there's a good chance an innocent person may be sent to prison.

NameGames Thu 23-Aug-12 18:24:50

niceguy2 No one has suggested watering down that principal. They've suggested that currently juries sometimes believe absurd things from defendants that they wouldn't find credible if it were some other crime. And I say they look for evidence that the woman continually and forcefully said no, rather than that the man knew he had consent (which is what the law actually requires). Other crimes are prosecuted when there is no evidence except the testimony of a victim and a defendant. Criminal damage and theft are frequently prosecuted on such grounds.

mayorquimby Thu 23-Aug-12 18:28:41

Yes but NameGames, there are no witnesses. So the jury cannot convict based upon the defendant's word alone. It's the way our court system works

The victim is a witness. They're testimony is treated as evidence, if it is such to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt then they can convict.

mayorquimby Thu 23-Aug-12 18:35:01

"Actually alisonjayne, there's a 90%+ chance that your son did"

I've often seen this repeated and it is a misinterpretation /misre of the statistics.

mayorquimby Thu 23-Aug-12 18:36:54

/misrepresentation *

Margerykemp Thu 23-Aug-12 18:47:04

Alisonjayne- were you there? How do you know he is innocent?

ALISONJAYNE Thu 23-Aug-12 21:47:22

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DuelingFanjo Thu 23-Aug-12 21:52:49

" and the evidence is 100% clear that this was rape"

out of interest, what was the evidence that made it clear?

ALISONJAYNE Thu 23-Aug-12 21:57:12

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ALISONJAYNE Thu 23-Aug-12 22:02:37

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ALISONJAYNE Thu 23-Aug-12 22:04:30

i believe in Karma though

DuelingFanjo Thu 23-Aug-12 22:05:38

sorry, that question was RE the rape at the vicarage mentioned earlier. I have read up on it now and can understand whyit was clear.

niceguy2 Thu 23-Aug-12 22:06:16

Namegames, i find that incredibly hard to believe that even criminal damage and theft are convicted solely on the evidence of the victim. I would suspect that in the case of theft there would be other evidence such as being found with the item by the police or CCTV. Ditto with criminal damage. If there was an independent witness then of course that would be different.

But I doubt I would get very far if I called the police up and claimed <insert local toerag> had scratched my car. They'd want evidence such as a witness, fingerprints, admission of guilt. That would be supporting evidence. If it was my word against his....i doubt they'd even arrest him, let alone charge him.

ALISONJAYNE Thu 23-Aug-12 22:10:58

yes i agree, because the girl is a victim and rightly so if its TRUE , they brought my son in questioned him for about 6 hours then let him go and gave him a date for 6 weeks later to go back evrytime hes been rebailed and he cant take much more, and i am getting angry now. when i find out if hes being charged or if its going to court or if hes not being charged, i am going to press charges on her and drag her name through the mud and make her feel how bad he has but i doubt she will because she clearly does not have a any humanity

ALISONJAYNE Thu 23-Aug-12 22:16:23

to convict a rapist you must have hard evidence, dna and the rest otherwise too many innocent people will be punished for something they did not do, and thats very wrong. a womans word is not enough, thats the facts, and im not saying all women lie of course not, but some do, as i know!

niceguy2 Thu 23-Aug-12 23:03:31

I'd even go as far as to say that chances are that most women are telling the truth. Hence why I think that false allegations small as they may be are having a big disproportionate affect on rape trials.

However, isn't it a fundamental principle of our legal system that it is better than 10 guilty people go free than an innocent one goes to prison? (or words to that effect).

The million dollar question is how do you significantly increase the conviction rate without undermining that principle?

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 08:03:05

sorry nice guy if that one innocent person as you say goes to prison, thats wrong so i dont agree about that. As rape is so serious you need proof and evidence to convict, if police took all womens words and most prob are telling truth but some arent, that disgusting! somebodys life is ruined over it when the woman is actually the sick one in some cases, not all.

mayorquimby Fri 24-Aug-12 13:19:48

", i find that incredibly hard to believe that even criminal damage and theft are convicted solely on the evidence of the victim. I would suspect that in the case of theft there would be other evidence such as being found with the item by the police or CCTv"

But it will still come down to the same principal, it will be only the victims word that they had not consented to the taking of the item, same as with most rape cases the accused won't deny sex has taken place just that it was consensual.
The difference being that there isn't a history of juries ignoring common sense and believing consent was present for theft offences in the same way there is for rape so most accused people won't try that tactic as its doomed to fail.

Margerykemp Fri 24-Aug-12 14:26:23

Alison- rapists dont have horns on them or flashing lights saying 'here's a rapist'

dont you think all mums think 'my boy would never do that'?

you say courts/juries shouldnt take one person's word against another's but that is exactly what you are doing

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 15:59:32

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ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 16:01:18

the police are doing it right for now they want hard evidence as some women lie, well thats fair enough, if you were raped there will be evidence, plain and simple. if your making it up there wont be!

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 16:08:31

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ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 16:13:00

and dont insult my intelligence either.

niceguy2 Fri 24-Aug-12 16:16:45

Alison, i think you may have misread what I said. I'm in agreement with you.

Mayor, without meaning to go completely offtopic consent in cases of theft is very different. Theft is usually done by people unknown to the victim. Chances are the person who breaks into my home and steals my phone will not be known to me.

So it's going to be hard to convince a magistrate or juror that I willingly gave my phone away to a random stranger. They may as well go with the 'i bought it off a man in the pub' defence.

However, let's say the accused was say my exGF and she claimed I'd given it to her as a present, the only way the prosecution could then prove theft is by supporting evidence such as fingerprints, CCTV etc.

It is the same principle and in theory the burden of proof is to the same high standards. That said, we're all human and chances are there's a lot higher burden of proof required to send someone to prison for rape than nicking a mobile phone.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 16:43:13

well said niceguy 2 i agree with you

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 16:54:29

when you living with it and you know its wrong its completely different. come october i will share the good news anyhow that no charges will be brought on my son, and the simple reason for that is that the girl is a compulsive liar and is not right in the head.

ShirleyKnot Fri 24-Aug-12 16:56:21

You know nothing until the investigation by the police is complete.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 17:00:47

well it will be complete early october, im confident, i know my kids i brought them up, they know right from wrong!

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 17:02:25

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OneHandFlapping Fri 24-Aug-12 17:36:12

Alison, I understand that you are very upset about what's happening to your son, but I don't feel this thread is the right place to try and defend your son.

Margerykemp Fri 24-Aug-12 17:40:03

Alison jayne- "if you were raped there would be evidence"

this is a rape myth

there is often witness evidence of the victim and physical evidence of penetration but nothing else

force/bruising is not necessary for an act to have been rape

there was a Mumsnet campaign a few months back about rape myths like this- please dont promote rape myths in this space

ShirleyKnot Fri 24-Aug-12 17:47:15

Well said Margery. I'm astounded actually that these myths and vicious attacks have been allowed to stand.

As I understand it the allegation is of oral rape. Pretty difficult to get 'evidence' of this, but you have to wonder why a 15 year old girl would subject herself to the sort of shit she will be undoubtedly be going through. Lots of police interrogation, no doubt, and the sort of attitudes displayed in this thread. sad

FloraFox Fri 24-Aug-12 18:12:30

Alison's original point on here was pretty straightforward about her son. The vile comment that "Actually alisonjayne, there's a 90%+ chance that your son did it" was what prompted her more forceful defence of her son, so I think it's unfair to round on her now. That statement is totally incorrect and fundamentally misunderstands how statistics work. It is wrong that there is a 90% chance that any particular accused committed the crime. The crime either was committed or it was not - the "chances" are either 0 or 100% - and the point of the investigation and trial is to decide whether there is enough evidence to decide the crime was committed by this accused. There is no trial by statistics. The case has to be considered on its own merits and its own evidence. Where the only evidence is the testimony of the accused and the victim-witness, credibility will be the main issue. Alison knows the people involved and their accounts of what happened and she believes her son. That's not necessarily just a mother's prejudice for her son but a view of the likelihood that this particular accuser and this particular accused are telling the truth. Something none of the rest of us can form a view on.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 18:13:30

im defending false allegations of rape, and i know alot more about it then you as i know the case, you dont. dont make my son out to be a monster and tell me hes guilty before hes even been charged! idiots young girls are just as sick, and once theyve kept a lie going they get into deep and carry it on, justice will be served though i have faith. im done talking to you al now who have told me he probably did do it and aimed it directly at me. thats sick. i will be setting up a campaign about girls who cry rape and a support group for boys and their parents, as i know how it feels. you dont! end of discussion from me.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 18:19:37

thankyou florafox, they are clearly just want to gang up on me because they think im defending rapists?? please!! rapists are monsters who deserve to go to jail, my son isnt one of them, and yes im angry and hurt, but at the same time im not stupid, i believe innocent people dont get charged and i have faith in the police. i am glad they are doing all they can in case it was a genuine rape so for this reason i am going along with it all till they tell me they are not charging. if it goes to court then i will be a witness myself as i was there on the date and i saw her and she was bloody fine and she begged him to be her boyfriend. im not justifying it anymore, i was just saying not every woman or girl that reports a rape is truthful like you all think. and if it was your son and you knew what i know you would feel the same.

chibi Fri 24-Aug-12 18:20:18

there is already a campaign against girls who cry rape and in suport of accused boys. it is called all of human civilisation, at least the ones we know of, for all of recorded history, and you will find it everybloodywhere


mayorquimby Fri 24-Aug-12 18:21:51

That statement is totally incorrect and fundamentally misunderstands how statistics work. It is wrong that there is a 90% chance that any particular accused committed the crime. The crime either was committed or it was not - the "chances" are either 0 or 100% - and the point of the investigation and trial is to decide whether there is enough "

It also misrepresents the statistical data and fails to understand what is meant by false reporting.
False reports are reports made in the knowledge that they are false and with the intention that such a falsehood is believed. It is around the same rate for rape as in all other crimes.
That does not mean that all other reports which are not deemed to be false, are to be taken as evidence of the truth of their contents. Merely that the person making the statement believes its contents and they are made in good faith. As such this does not mean that the 90+% of reported crime which are not deemed to be false reports(for all offences) means the accused did it.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 18:26:50

have any of you had experience in a rape case???? i have for 8 MONTHS!!

ALISONJAYNE Fri 24-Aug-12 18:34:57

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KatMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 24-Aug-12 19:04:50

Evening all,

Just to say that this is an old thread from June 2012 that has been recently bumped into Active.

We also wanted to post a link to our rape myths for those who haven't read them.

Margerykemp Fri 24-Aug-12 21:46:56

Alison- there are quite a few of us on this thread who do know what we are talking about. You are promoting rape myths, we aten't.

It is difficult when a loved one is accused of a crime but there are plenty of women on mn who have been involved in rape cases as the victim and have suffered much more than you in your present situation.

When rape victims have to read your rape myths it opens old wounds and makes recovery more difficult. Surely you can understand that?

ALISONJAYNE Sat 25-Aug-12 08:58:47

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OneHandFlapping Sat 25-Aug-12 09:00:33

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ALISONJAYNE Sat 25-Aug-12 09:01:30

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ALISONJAYNE Sat 25-Aug-12 09:04:54

mumsnet how do i delete so im not part of this group because it disgusts me that you think no women make false allegations, it really does either delete me or tell me how to do it.

scurryfunge Sat 25-Aug-12 09:10:38

You need to report your own post and for your comments to be deleted Alison.

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 25-Aug-12 09:46:31


mumsnet how do i delete so im not part of this group because it disgusts me that you think no women make false allegations, it really does either delete me or tell me how to do it.


We can't delete your registration for you; you need to do it yourself via the 'MyMumsnet' tab at the top of the page.

Drop us a line on if you want step-by-step instructions.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 31-Aug-12 08:58:33

i suggest that mumsnet should respect the fact that every boy or man who is accused of Rape is infact innocent till PROVEN guilty, and as a follow up to this case my son was supposed to go october but instead we were called brought back to police station and told that the girl who has been pursueing these charges after 7 months has now infact CONFESSED that she was telling a lie and it did not happen!! no charges are being brought on my son. so now i am going to see what i can do to make sure she never puts another innocent boy and his family through this. your comments have been disgusting might i add. goodbye

DaniCalifornia Fri 31-Aug-12 09:10:24

Most rape trials never get to court.

Most rapists are actually rapists.

Most women don't lie.

Many women withdraw the allegations because they are sick of being treated like scum or because of bullying and intimidation tactics by the accused and their families.

90 -95% of women DO NOT lie about being raped. Of those who make false accusations, a portion misidentify their rapist and many, many more suffer from serious psychological disorders. That percentage includes women who withdraw their accusations EVEN IF THEY ARE TRUE.

Nearly all rapists lie about being rapists.

Me, i go with the statistics.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 31-Aug-12 09:19:28

go with your statistics i couldnt care less i praise the police and how they have dealt with this and Justice has came in the end and i have alot of respect for them that they do see through a liar when they get one. also im very sorry to all women who are actually raped as this crap makes it harder for REAL rapists to be convicted. keep your nasty comments to yourself as i know alot more than you.

Margerykemp Fri 31-Aug-12 09:32:51

Why do you know more AlisonJayne? Have you been raped?

It isn't your right to tell rape victims how they should feel.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 31-Aug-12 09:37:26


DuelingFanjo Fri 31-Aug-12 09:39:05

The best thing you can do now is help your son not to have a 'low opinion of females'. You can teach him that this is just one woman and it is very rare for women to make false accusations. Hopefully this will help him in the future rather than keep him feeling bitter and negative towards women in general. As a mother you owe him that.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 31-Aug-12 09:42:24

DuelingFanjo yes i agree and that is one of my fears that he never trusts a girl again and they are not all the same but time will heal i expect. thankyou

ALISONJAYNE Fri 31-Aug-12 09:47:12

anyhow im off tonight to celebrate with my family and see my son smile again and nobody on here will stop me. case closed

Margerykemp Fri 31-Aug-12 10:07:52

Alison you are the one who has had posts deleted on this thread for personal attacks on other posters including me.

You are spreading rape myths and are undermining rape victims.

And as for your 'you must not have children' comment that is just weird. This is called MUMS net!

ALISONJAYNE Fri 31-Aug-12 10:17:13

like i said margery, jusctice has been served the girl has admitted it, so please go about your day! goodbye i do not wish to hear ur idiotic views anymore where you think evrybody is guilty before it has even been investigated. your sick not me.

ALISONJAYNE Fri 31-Aug-12 10:22:29

i have an appointment today at the girls school with the police to tell them what sort of girl they have in there now so must dash. not interested in what you have to say as its just bullying as far as im concerned.

ShirleyO Fri 31-Aug-12 10:32:03

I have to say that I find it bizarre in the extreme that a poster stumbles upon an old thread concerning rape and the lack of police interest and BUMPS it up into active before then launching personal attacks on pretty much everyone and doesn't post anywhere else on MN.

DuelingFanjo Fri 31-Aug-12 10:33:13

I am pretty sure she has posted elsewhere, Dwasn't there another thread? Maybe with a slight name change? perhaps I am imagining it and it was this one?

ShirleyO Fri 31-Aug-12 10:34:17

No other posts under this particular shouty name.

Not that I particularly give a shit.


niceguy2 Fri 31-Aug-12 10:46:33

I haven't seen the deleted comments but I have to say Alison sounds pretty genuine.

What I do find disturbing though is the lack of empathy from other women who obviously have no real clue as to the specifics of the case, yet attacking a mother who understandably is beside herself.

Telling her that most women don't lie is simply utter stupid and is totally ignorant. Most people don't steal. Most people don't murder. Does that mean we take those who accuse others of doing so on their word? Do we now have trial by mumsnet?

Like I said earlier, I was once arrested for theft. I can tell you now I didn't do it but it didn't stop the police from breaking down my door in the morning, arresting me, searching my house and putting me in a cell before questioning me. Their 'evidence' was purely circumstantial.

Once you've been sat in a cell for hours for a crime you didn't commit I suspect your position on innocent before being proven guilty will change.

niceguy2 Fri 31-Aug-12 10:47:13

PS. I'm glad it all worked out for you Alison

DaniCalifornia Fri 31-Aug-12 11:29:40

Erm, There is no way the police would be going with you to the girls school to tell them what a nasty liar she is. That would be a massive breach of all sorts of laws. It simply would not happen; particularly since the child is underage and this would be considered a child protection issue since false allegations usually imply one of two things: the child is being raped by someone else and panicked and named someone she wasn't frightened of [which is incredibly common] or she has severe mental health issues. Either way, it would be classed as none of your business and if a police officer did accompany you to the school, they could be looking a professional misconduct case.

floatingquoter Fri 31-Aug-12 12:26:26

difficult to get convictions on so called date rape.

Margerykemp Fri 31-Aug-12 12:40:04

Shirley- what do we call those posters here? Doesn't begin with R or S

ShirleyO Fri 31-Aug-12 13:33:06

Oh no Margery - you don't catch me out that easily. wink

Margerykemp Fri 31-Aug-12 14:23:17


kinafe Thu 13-Sep-12 02:17:42

It seems to be pretty common practice for rape investigations to be negligent, which of course means they won't get to trial. In my case they botched my statement throughout, which I asked to be changed, which made them angry - is it too much to expect police to do their job?!

There were various other mess ups which completely messed up the investigation and allowed the suspect to be be fully fore-warned and prepared,he knows it's me who made the complaint, and this is ongoing; he's now on holiday, then the investigator is on holiday. How relaxing for them. It's two months since I gave the statement and they still haven't interviewed the suspect although he works from home, and he's known to me including address, phone number etc.

I put in a full complaint to the police dept, followed it up with a phone call, and they are assigning a more senior investigator. I will still be meeting with my local MP to discuss this however.

The anger I feel about the rape, and all the trauma that accompanies it, is now increased by the sense of powerlessness this investigation has caused. Therefore I am using that anger as effectively as I can. The fact that women have channelled their anger assertively and effectively is the reason rape laws have been changed for the better. It's not enough to rant, though that helps, we can also all help change the way rape is dealt with.

Lastly, the two initial police officers who took the first report were excellent, and I let the police dept know that.

kinafe Tue 05-Mar-13 04:28:15

I take the point that rape is difficult to prove, it's often hearsay without hard evidence, therefore it will not go to trial.

However, I feel that some commenters here are perhaps unaware of the lax service the police provide in terms of investigation.

Any rape victim who reports rape to the police deserves a decent, professional investigation, but that actually rarely happens. Senior police will only be appointed to a rape case if it involves a child, or there is clear evidence of violence and no confusion in terms of the rape (for example if it was committed by a husband or someone known) and whether or not is is 'historical'. Historical rapes are those in which the rape victim did not complain immediately so there is no forensic evidence.

Speaking for my own experience, it was 'historical', involving someone I've known for 20 or more years, and there was no hard evidence, only hearsay.

Let me be clear - I did not expect it to go to trial, given the circumstances and no hard evidence. However, that does not mean that my case should not be thoroughly investigated. It does not mean that junior incompetent police officers should be assigned to my case, and it should not mean that questioning of the suspect does not take place until 6 months later, even though the suspect was available at home, 99 percent of that 6 months.

It should not take two formal complaints to my local MP over 8 months, to have the police actually meet and speak with me about the lax investigation, and, when they have clearly acknowledged the police officer was junior and incompetent, they should have disciplined that police officer, in the same way that I myself would fully expect to be given a warning if I did not do my job.

I am deeply damaged by the experience. I am moving from my home city because this has ruined my career and social life. It has left me with a sense of anger and mistrust that I don't think will be healed, however much therapy I receive.

Until you, or someone you know has experienced police incompetency, or until you have researched the many, many cases in which women have not received justice, you cannot comment with authority on this subject.

StarsAtNight Wed 06-Mar-13 07:31:29

I wonder if more rape cases could be brought to trial as a group. Often there is a pattern of offending in which com

StarsAtNight Wed 06-Mar-13 07:44:49

Sorry mispost. A pattern of offending in which allegations of assault or rape are made. If they were all properly investigated and recorded then perhaps even if individually it was one person's word against another then maybe they could be tried together. One rape allegation might be a false accusation but you would have to be very unlucky to have several from peo

StarsAtNight Wed 06-Mar-13 07:49:08

People who didnt know one another. Perhaps this is one way of making it beyond reasonable doubt. Many serial offenders seem to get away with it because the individual allegations dont seem to have enough evidence to go to trial and no one links them together. Many apologies for multiple posts from dodgy phone.

MariscallRoad Wed 06-Mar-13 23:43:42

Outragious! I wonder how long this has been happening. I wonder whether the cuts have contributed or caused this to happen.

lrichmondgabber Thu 07-Mar-13 12:05:07

Police and rape? Because on date rape they know it will be almost impossible to get a conviction. On stranger rape I suspect the police are different

lrichmondgabber Fri 15-Mar-13 10:49:33

RAPE is difficult to prove if it is date rape. The police want succesful prosecutions

Domjolly Fri 15-Mar-13 19:30:52

Because it usually boils down to his word agaisnt hers and if the women has lets say a questionable past or was drunk she wont be belived by the jury
Quite simply

It dosnt matter how much we thank it shouldnt happen it dose espically if the people on the jury are women

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