Mumsnet Talk

The old thread was full. It was the first of a few I think.

I believe her.

Seeing what some awful people have put on FB/Twitter is sickening and can make you feel as though we live in a rape culture, but let's take heart:

a) The vast majority of Sheffield fans did not support the 'campaign' for a minutes silence in support of twatface Ched;
b) Clayton Macdonald was almost unanimously booed when he dared show his face at his last match;
c) All the football sites' comments pages I've seen have almost unanimously condemned Evans and expressed support and sympathy for the victim.

So the FA is massively out of touch with real football supporters in its refusal to publicly condemn Evans.

Some other interesting points to chew on:

- The sizeable chunk of female Ched supporters (as well as the sizeable chunk of men supporting the victim) demonstrates clearly that this is not a 'Women's Issue' - it's an issue for all decent people.
- An easy way to refute 'Ched supporters' is this: if a man is too drunk to speak or move, is it okay for Ched Evans to have sex with him?

I do hope his cellmate is not considering getting him blotto to try out this theory. They can get their hands on drink and drugs in porison, can't they?

I still believe her and i always will.

I believe her

Also, if anyone would like to contact Nick Clegg/the LibDems re Liam Elvish's comments, there's an online contact form here.

Sadly there are people who will always trust a convicted criminal.

How many times have we seen famous people get away with a crime or rebuild a career after conviction (or having a big questuion mark against them). People will always forgive the rich and famous. Who would put their necks out for this piece of filth is he was plain old Joe Blow? How many loons write to/marry criminals in jail/on death row? There is definately something not quite right there.

Innocent until proven guilty (is that it?). Therefore 'guilty when judged guilty'.

The Telegraph

Hopefully someone close to her will show her this and point her in our direction.

I believe her x

we have a few continuation threads going, can we blend them and have the one thread linked to discussions of the day, so people know where to find the new thread?

Tried to post this on the old thread, but it was full up. This was in response to the post by AJsDaddy:

AJsDaddy fantastic post <and I think I can guess which premership team you support! >

I have a feeling the vast majority of football fans (Sheffield Utd fans included) think the same as you. Unfortunately the very vocal minority are just vile in their beliefs and also in their obscene victimisation of a young woman who has already been through far too much in her life.

I hope the FA and PFA actually listen to views such as yours so that they can heed public feeling and take appropriate and necessary steps to strip Evans of his recent award and also to give him a lifelong ban from the game. They need to clearly demonstrate that they will not tolerate such behaviour from any of their players.

here
another continuation thread.

want to post on this too, I believe her.

I've emailed the Lib Dems, I wonder if I get a reply?

She was believed in Court. He was convicted. It's so hard to get a conviction no matter how much you're believed. I think that says a lot.
And Berts is right - it's not a male or female issue - it's about common decency or, for some poor deluded souls, lack of).

I believe you

I believe you.

Agreed, great (if long!) post by ajsdaddy. Seemed very heartfelt to me.

The overriding feeling I got was sadness though. Pure and simple sadness at what football culture has become.

I'm getting more and more frustrated trying to make the idiots see reason. Yes, I know it's probably impossible but I won't stop trying. To give up is to accept it and I can't do that.

This is my most recent tweet. Any better suggestions gratefully received, I only joined yesterday so not well practised at being so succinct yet!

@MyDogShitsShoes. So many people spectacularly missing the point. Too drunk to say no = too drunk to say yes! #IBelieveHer

I believe her, and so a jury of her peers.

To AJsDaddy, It must be really hard to be a welsh, a male and a football fan at the moment. I salute you.

Thanks to those who continued the threads.

I actually joined FB just for this cause. I hope she is getting the support she needs in RL.

As for the libdems, well, they showed their true colours in government. That nut is just digging the grave deeper.

I hope football can get back to being a sport of decency and dignity. I thought it was that way when I was a kid. I glorified it... almost... or was i just deluded?

I believe her.

I believe her, knowing what it is like to be questioned by the police in these sort of cases it is highly unlikely that anyone in their right mind would be less than trueful it is so humiliating to go through.

I believe her

I believe her and so did a jury.

I believe her.

And I'm furious. I'm just incandescent with a rage I haven't felt for a long time with all the stupid rape apologists and women haters whose remarks I'm reading. I'm saying to them - put your photos on the internet so all women can avoid ever having a drink with you since you seem to think that excuses rape.

As to the women rape apologists, I feel really sorry for them. When did we feminists fail them so badly that they think this is OK? That they have so little concept of their rights, freedoms, their bodily integrity? Feminists, we've dropped the ball badly on this one. We've cowered behind the pressure to be all cool and not speak out LOUD about the objectification and pornification of women, we've allowed ourselves to accept the proposition that it's OK to buy sexual access to women if you have the money and that rape is an hilarious topic for jokes. And now people aren't ashamed to come out and blame the victim when rape has serious consequences.

We've got to get serious on this one and resist the pressure going on to minimise these things. We see where it's going in the plight of this young woman who is enduring the most disgusting misogynistic attacks and all kinds of questioning of her behaviour when she did nothing illegal.

This has to change. Our collective feet have to go down to put an end to this. I - for one - have had enough. And I suspect all the women and men here have too.

I believe her.

I believe her

I believe her.

I believe her

Just tweeted

I believe her

I believe her

I believe her

I believe you

I had talked to my 14 yr old DS about the case and some aspects of it, and his response was that the man was 'thick because anyone should be able to go out and get a bit drunk and not have to worry about getting raped.'
Proud that at 14 he has far more integrity than Ched Evans..

My DS believes her x

I believe her

Bloody fantastic post apocalypse. I don't remember ever getting this worked up about a "celeb headline".

I'm spewing molten rage all over the shop but i'm struggling to put it into words. I'm finding it really difficult to focus through the anger.

I will NOT quieten down though. I know people are saying this culture will never change but that doesn't mean we stop fighting.

Yes we need to get the message out there to young women not to drink so excessively that they put themselves at risk of harm and to have more respect for themselves than to want to sleep with a "celeb". That's a given.

But I will NOT accept that a vulnerable girl is "fair game" because she made the mistake of getting too drunk to make a sensible decision.

I believe her.

Another voice to add to the list

I believe her .

Yes should not be the automatic answer in your head when shagging someone who is so pissed they can't say no .

Idiot and a rapist Ched .

I believe her

I believe her. And I thank her and admire her courage in prosecuting. To do that and then go through this shit. She's great. You're great. Chin up.

I wanted to say something about the comments on FB and from that Lib Dem about who would say no, or she should have been grateful. It seems to me that there is a problem about sex and sexuality for some people. Sex should be about mutual enjoyment and connection, not having sex because the person is famous or 'so' gorgeous that you are 'lucky' to have the chance. Is this partly the problem with these rapists? They assume consent because they can't believe that a woman wouldn't want to be penetrated by a famous person. Which is sick and wrong.
Sorry, I've ranted a bit, but I was trying to unpick why another woman would support a convicted rapist by saying his victim should be grateful and this is the best I've come up with.

a drunken young woman is still a living being, she has not relinquished her humanity when she passed from sobriety to drunkeness. She is more than an object. Even if she has passed out and feels nothing to treat her like an object there for your gratification and to do this whilst she is being observed and filmed by others is an ugly thing to do.

I really cannot understand women who don't see this. I really really don't understand his girlfriend. Does any woman believe that there are times when she ceases being a full person and becomes just an empty shell, a body lying there to be used for a bit of a lark, a bit of grunting and thrusting?Is there any woman at all who would say under those circumstances, if I had been too drunk to say anything, yes it would have been alright with me?

I believe her.

I believe her

Just want to add my voice: I believe her.

I hope someone shows her these threads so she can see that men and women alike support her.

I believe her. Cannot believe what she's been subjected to! It's disgusting. Football has to change it's misogynist laddish culture. I don't think there is another sport where 'sportsmen' and their players are allowed so much license to behave badly whilst raking in hefty salaries. Never win anything important any bloody how.

Dementedma, there isn't alot to understand. A jury of his peers who have heard and seen all the evidence found Ched Evans guilty of rape. The girl in this case WAS raped, the police believed it, a jury believed it and we all believe it.

A woman is allowed to get falling down drunk she is allowed to get into a cab with a strange man, it does not follow that that strange man or his friends are allowed to put their dicks in her without her say so.

I believe her

I'm glad there is a continuation thread - how can we get mumsnet to link to this rather than the full one?

It's time that clubs discipline anyone present when something like this happened. No person who stands by and does nothing to stop this is innocent, they all bring their club into disrepute.

And I should add that if she was that drunk no decent man would have sex with her even if she begged them. It used to be called 'taking advantage' and it's a shameful way to behave.

I believe you

I believe her.

I believe her.

ok *dollymixtures". I didn't imply it WAS allowed, I don't think.
I was just wondering how one encounter was rape and one wasn't, assuming they happened within minutes of each other with someone who was incapable of giving consent or rejection.
If the guy is guilty of rape then hell mend him. Was just looking for clarification, that's all

Girl gets pissed, goes to kebab shop and falls over, then she gets put in taxi with footballers who then take her back to hotel. Nowhere in any nes reports does it say that she picked up strangers in a bar.

I believe you

I believe her

I believe her

dementadma Both men with in the bedroom were charged with rape, but for some reason only one was found guilty.

five but that's what I mean. Why weren't they BOTH convicted of rape?

Sorry Dementedma, I didn't read your post properly just read/ heard too many people questioning whether/ how this was rape and have got a bit angry.

From what I understand the other guy was acquitted because she got into the taxi with him and therefore obviously agreed to sex too . I really hope there was more to it than that.

I believe her.

Dememntedma, she didnt pick him up in a bar, from what I have read he literally picked her up in the street while she was falling over drunk, called Ched Evans and said "ive got one" or words to that effect, and took her to the hotel room.

I presume he was not found guilty as she went with him therefore he argued consensual sex. I know my opinions on that one.

ok, thanks. just couldn't get my head round how one got off and one got charged!

I think we are on shaky ground to say that he must be guilty because a jury of his peers found him so, but the other guy 'got off' - either we respect the jury system or we don't - especially as it was the same people!

I find it odd too but I assumed there was reasonable doubt in his case so the jury weren't able to conclusively decide he was guilty.

I hope she is ok - those bastards who put her name on twitter deserve a jail sentence

I believe her

whole point about consent is you can withdraw consent at any moment your body you decide not a man

I believe her.

not saying she ever gave her consent though poor girl having gone through that then her name publised bloody disgusting.

Sorry I shouldn't have posted the above.

This thread is not about discussing the case, it is about showing we believe this woman.

I believe her.

I believe her.

The jury believed her, which is the end of the matter. He's in prison and he's having a really horrible time. Suck it up, rapist-supporting assholes.
My theory is this; football is, to certain sections of our society, the new aristocracy. They are at the top of the hierarchy, and as such entitled to total deference; challenging them or holding them to account threatens the natural order of things.
people have always liked hierarchies, of course; but you've got to feel sorry for people who feel the need to look up to pond life like Evans. at least the lord in his manor looked like someone worth admiring.

I believe her.

I believe her.

I believe her.

And MN makes me well up when it is this fantastic.

I believe her

I expect the appeal will be very interesting to watch.

Why are people so stupid that they think they can show contempt to court and get away with it by naming people with anonymity and injunctions etc. on twitter.

I believe her.

I believe her

I believe her.

I believe her/you, I hope she/ you finds courage and strength to keep going thru all this x

I believe her.

DH believes her.

I hope she reads these threads. If you are, don't ever forget my lovely, that decent people BELIEVE YOU. Don't lose sight of that.

why haven't the blogspots/other websites naming her been taken down? Some of the ones I have just seen have been running for several days. Takes one google to locate a blogspot with photo and name of the blogger on it for instance.

I believe her, of course I do!

I have also emailed the LibDems and commented on their FB page about Liam Elvish's disgraceful comments.

I believe her.

I am also so full of rage over how she has been treated, I keep raging about it to anyone who will listen. I wish the woman all the best and think that she has been very brave. She has my respect.

I believe her.

I believe her.

I believe her.

As an older member of MN, am absolutely furious about the reactions to, and the implications of this case. Some of us marched and demonstrated and fought tooth and nail 30+ years ago for women to get their voices HEARD in rape cases, and to overturn the legal and social culture which tolerated and accepted rape.

One of my worst nightmares would be to have a DD who supported the guilty party in this case. What a fucking tragic, delusional representative of womankind that poor brainwashed kid is. Porn-culture personified.

For those of you feeling angry but impotent about this can I second the suggestion from the earlier thread to make a donation to Rape Crisis? Perhaps if that LD idiot wanted to make his 'apology' a bit more genuine he could make a goodly donation too.

I believe her.

I believe her, and thankfully the police/CPS and jury also believe her. I'm astounded that those rape apologist misogynists even exist. Sheesh...

have tweeted and emailed. What a disgusting excuse for a human being is that Elvish 'person'

StrandedBear I totally agree with you, she's in for one shocking epiphany.

As for those asking about how one (mcDondald, is that it?) was found not guilty and the other(Ched) was convicted, I think I understand the jury's point of view:

She got into the taxi with the first guy. she could still (kind of) walk and talk and may have consented to sex. Questionable but plausible. In any case, she was conscious (kind of).

The video, to my knowledge, was an attempt at filming the scene which didn't quite work.

The Ched guy appears on scene to have sex with the now totally legless girl. The jury, in my opinion, are right to think there was no way she was in any state to give consent to anyone at this point. She doesn't know what happened but there must have been evidence of his involvement. He also confirmed that he slept with her.

Basically, of the two that slept with her that night, only one actually saw her (barely) conscious at any point during the night. he got off, barely if you ask me. The other should have walked away if the girl was only garbling by the time he wanted his "share"...

This is what I have gleamed from the discussions. The jury know better they saw the full evidence.

Pff... I just can't believe we still live in this kind of world....

Let's not turn on his girlfriend. I haven't read much about the support for Ched Evans if I'm honest (random comments from colleagues have been bad enough) but given the predatory way he behaved I wondered if actually his girlfriend is all too aware of what he's like. I doubt it's the first time he's behaved like this.

I believe her.

I'm appalled at some of the attitudes around. We're meant to be a civilized society. Appalling that this sort of thing goes on at all, let alone that people think it's OK.

Thanks Geekette. The only ref I've seen to the acquittal of the other chap more or less said he was acquitted because she got in the taxi with him and he's a footballer and what did she expect was going to happen . I have assumed that there was a bit more than this behind the jury's decision <clings on to faith in humanity by fingertips>

Actually I don't feel sorry for the girlfriend one iota. Even if her had 'just cheated' on her it would be wrong. but he didn't, he RAPED someone. \A jury believe it, what's to stand by?

I believe her.

I believe her.

I must admit I too am shocked that the girlfriend is standing by him, and apparently so is the girlfriends father. I suppose it's a 'head in the sand' reaction - they don't want to think that someone they love is capable of something so awful . I even feel some pity for the sister - although all the 'Chedwyn is very down, Ched is still in shock, Ched can't believe this has happened to him' posts from her make me want to shout at her asking how she thinks his victim feels

I have no sympathy what so ever for the Rapist and his scummy friends who thought a drunken girl was fair game. This is like a bloody remake of Jodie Foster's The Accused. But instead of Rednecks jeering the rapists on we have Footballers trying to film it. What the hell goes on in their tiny minds?

I still believe her, and always will.

And so the backlash begins with the Daily Fail and it's misogynistic ways reporting......Bride 'raped by husband on wedding night after she got so drunk she didn't want sex'

How they like a good stir to keep the population at each others throats.

I believe her

I believe her

I believe her and so did the jury. It is VERY hard to get a rape conviction. She did. There must have been plenty of evidence.

I have also emailed the libdems re the twit who said: 'most girls would want to sleep with (Evans) anyway'.
This sort of nonsense from politicians 'normalises' rape. I remember Ken Clarke saying something else simlilar last year.

Let them lie too drunk to speak and get penetrated by multiple strangers and see how they like it!
Is it foolish to get so drunk? Yes.
Do you therefore 'deserve' to be raped? NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
A decent person would put you in a taxi not put his penis in you.

If the girl is reading this, I hope she can hear the support for her, loud and clear - you did not deserve this, and I think you are very very brave.

Ken Clarke said nothing of the kind last year. What he said had a lot of merit and if anything this case shows that what he said was quite pertinent. two accused one acquittal one conviction.

Well, I thought Ken Clarkes remarks last year were offensive

'most girls would want to sleep with (Evans) anyway'.

I doubt that's true anymore. Any woman with a twitter of wit or an ounce of self respect would stay far, far away from this pathetic excuse for a man and his demented family. Personally, I'm not surprised they're supporting him - he didn't lick his attitude towards women off the ground.

I believe her.

I believe her.

I believe her.

And I believe that we need to seriously address the misogynistic culture that we live in which judges women not men, when men rape women.
Too many people condone sexist behaviour, laddish behaviour, and glorify footballers and football. If we have a culture where a group of young men are adulated and paid ridiculous amounts of money and see women as disposable objects, we are creating a rape culture. In a similar way, we have gang cultures, in which young men are given undeserved respect, glorified, who see women as disposable objects, in which gang rape is common place. People need to see the connections here. It is men's behaviour that should be on trial, not rape victims.

I believe her and i've emailed the LibDems about Elvish's disgusting comments

Feel free to do the same here

I know these links were posted earlier but this thread is growing quickly.

Are people saying that they believe she doesn't remember? I've tried to find details of the case and can only find snippets of the trial in which she says she doesn't know what happened and doesn't remember. Was the footballer saying that she did remember and went willingly?

I'm surprised no one has brought up the binge drinking culture which I feel has an awful lot to do with situations like this where men openly take advantage of a woman's impaired judgement or the fact they are so drunk they don't know what's going on. Women are putting themselves in incredibly vulnerable situations and the government is not doing enough to address it.

I'm 31 now and I guess was one of the first wave of adolescents who openly binge drank, my late teens early twenties are a blur of getting drunk in clubs and pubs and on occasion waking up next to men not knowing what had happened.

I hate the way drinking until you pass out is 'normalised' in this country and I am terrified that my children are going to do the same thing.

I believe her. I hope she knows how much support she has.

I see that 9 further arrests have been made re the Twitter abuse this morning.At least it seems to be being taken seriously by the Police.A good article in this weeks Grazia too.

i believe you, and think your very brave, keep strong xx

Kushti women should be able to get so drunk they can barely walk let alone fully register where they are or what is happening to them. They should be able to do so without being raped. And without being blamed for being raped/vunerable/drunk.

I'm not saying it's sensible to do so, but they should be able to do so without risk from rape and victim blaming.

If a drunken man is mugged and beaten how many of his friends do you think would tell him "Well, if you hadn't been so drunk/been flashing your wallet about/looking like you wanted it...." etc? Victim blaming is something that only happens with crime of rape. Being drunk whilst having a crime commited against you is not limited to rape.

I believe her

D0oinMeCleanin - I absolutely agree but I think anyone getting so drunk they don't know what is happening is putting themselves in a very vulnerable situation, especially women.

I am absolutely not saying that it is the victims fault at all just that I wish there wasn't such a culture in this country of young people getting so drunk that awful things happen to them.

I lost my virginity at 14 to a much older man who gave me alcohol and ecstasy, I didn't know what was going on, so yes I hope this ruling will mean men think twice about raping women who are too drunk to know what is going on.

Totally agree. I'm sick and tired of people concealing their wish to control women in this way and limit our rights in this manner.

Stupid morality police mentality punishing women for stepping out of line. If women get drunk they can be punished by rape. Women are in a constant state of consent to sex unless they protest loudly enough. Rape only happens if it's a stranger with an knife in an alleyway who leaves you for dead after you almost allowed yourself to be killed to protect your precious chastity. If you are in the same room as a man, or if you're drunk, well, what do you expect?

Sick of it all. SICK OF IT ALL. THE ONLY COMMON DENOMINATOR BETWEEN ALL WOMEN WHO ARE RAPED IS THAT THEY ARE IN THE PRESENCE OF A RAPIST.

AND IT'S NOT DOWN TO SOME HALF WITTED LOW LIFE TO PUNISH WOMEN WHO DRINK TOO MUCH WITH RAPE.

Why the hell do women go along with this?

I have also emailed the LibDems re Elvishs' hideous comments.

I think the twitter arrests are very important.

I strongly believe most women who are raped are raped twice, once by the rapist and once by the 'system'. I am glad this particular case resulted in one conviction (sadly only one...) but the twitter abuse and the MP/political remarks also need addressing as they normalise rape and make it more 'acceptable'.

Have emailed the lib dems asking for action to indicate they don't welcome rape apologists. We shall see.

I believe her and I have just emailed the lib dems about Liam Elvish too. Thanks to the poster who put the link up.

Give kushti a chance. I think she is trying to combat two societal evils at once.

Kushti the subject of rape is a very sensitive one and brings out people's defences. The history of people "punishing" women for being at a place, at a time, in a state of mind that suited the perpetrator and the woman getting blamed for it by society, leaves nerves raw.

There is an issue with society trying to make us believe that by default women want sexualised objects in them until she says the contrary and sometimes despite her saying the contrary.

There is an issue with binge drinking in the UK.

But trying to use a rape case to show the issue of binge drinking is highlighting that the victim was in a suitable position for the perpetrator to take advantage. That is the nonsense society has been trying to get us to swallow for hundreds of years. Victims are always in a suitable position for the perpetrator to take advantage (or at least have a shot at it).

When all the teens end up in hospital with liver cirrhosis, then you have a case for binge drinking. This one isn't one of them.

And I definitely do not want this girl growing up being afraid of the dark and of men. There are good people out there, binge drinking or not!

I believe her.

I believe her.

I believe her.

I am wondering how many of these people who are supporting a convicted rapist have daughters or sisters? Would they support a rapist who was convicted of raping their daughter or sister.

I understand exactly where you're coming from kushti I don't think anyone on here thinks drinking yourself into unconsciousness is a good thing at all.

But it doesn't negate the crime. Agree completely with those comparing it to mugging. Yes people would say how silly it was to walk down a dark alley at night and make conversation with a stranger. but no one would say you wanted him to mug you.

The point is you shouldn't be vulnerable to rape if you're drunk. You should be able to drink far too much, be unable to stand, lose all your sensibilities and not expect to be "fair game".

Same as you should be able to walk down a dark alley at night without bring mugged.

Look at all the campaigning going on at the moment about knife crime. No one is saying that if you live in a "rough" area that you should expect to be stabbed. Everyone is, quite rightly, saying you should be able to live your life without the fear of bring stabbed. Imagine the uproar if anyone started saying it was an "acceptable risk".

This morning's tweet (i'm still getting used to it so any pointers more than welcome!)
@MyDogShitsShoes nope not shutting up about this. Drinking to excess = naive and vulnerable NOT "up for it". #IBelieveHer

Have just heard back from Lib Dems.
They apologise for the remarks and say they will 'take action'.

Hope they mean it. Apologists for Rape enable Rape to continue.

I believe her.

I will teach both my kids to not make themselves vunerable by drinking themselves comatose. However I will also teach them that, should they be daft enough to do so, they are not 'asking for it in any way shape or form'
and nor should they take advantage of a vunerable person in any way and that they should prevent/report anyone they see doing so.

I believe her.

I believe you.

My response to those women who have libelled and slandered that brave girl-

"There's a special place in Hell for women who do not support other women"

-- Madeleine Allbright --

I have bombarded the LibDems with protest emails too, regarding MrEvil-ish. I urge everybody to do the same.

Agree completely with those comparing it to mugging.

I don't. This is a serious crime against the person, not against property. People don't tend to get mugged in their own homes by people they know, yet that's where the majority of rapes happen. People can secure their possessions or leave stuff they don't want taken from them if they get mugged at home, but we can't detach our vaginas and leave them at home, or secure them in any other way.

I also want to add my support on Twitter. How many people have now added their support here? On Twitter people are saying 180 people on Mumsnet beileve you, but there has to be far more than that now?

MNHQ - do you have a nifty tech way of keeping track of numbers?

I will also be using the link I noticed above to write to the LibDems.

I've contacted the Lib Dems too. I can't believe Liam Elvish's comments, what a bastard.

1468 people 'like' the 'We Believe You' page on FB. Many people who have posted on here say they do not have FB so it's more than 1468 people who support her.

Have emailed the LibDems about Liam Elvish with the suggestion that he should have his membership cancelled. Elvish should join the BNP - they have a similar attitude to rape.

To add to Apocalypse's post, mugging also doesn't entail worrying visits to the clinic, enduring tests, internal exams and general humiliation, followed by weeks of waiting to see if you have contracted an STD.

I believe her, and I hope she realizes how brave she is.

If you google, there's a lot of articles regarding footballers (allegedly) sexually assaulting young women, another one within the last week. It's disgraceful behaviour from men who are supposed to be role models for children. Footballers are people who (most of) our children admire and respect.
The UK seems to have developed a very sexualised attitude which is very wrong. Women are not seen as equals, but as a toy to be discarded once the 'fun' is over. When I walk down my high street I can see images if half naked women, I see posters advertising free lap-dances and it's disgusting. How are parents going to raise responsible and respectful men if their children see images like this?

I don't mean the severity of the crime at all.

Pick any crime. It's about trying to find a way to explain to these people why it's NEVER acceptable to say a victim was asking for a crime to be commited to/on them.

People should be able to leave their houses unlocked without someone taking their things, they should be able to walk down a dark alley, they should be able to get into a taxi with a stranger.

No one should ever "expect" to be a victim of crime. Full stop.

I think i'm just finding it very difficult to put into words because i don't understand why anyone needs it explained to them. Why anyone would defend a rapist is just so mindboggling I don't know where to start.

Savannah, it's the responsibility of the man to ensure that the woman consents also. In cases where the man has pretended that he's the woman's husband in order to have sex with her, the man has been found guilty of rape even though the woman consented. If a woman is unable to consent then it's rape. What would it be if the woman was unconscious and he had sex with her? It would be rape.

I have now written to the LibDems about Liam Elvish's comments. You can too at Contact LibDems. Now going to add my voice to Twitter.

I believe you.

I've emailed the Lib Dems too.

Savannah - what if a girl is on her phone, walks in front of a car and is knocked unconscious. Would it then be OK for a man she'd just met in a pub to have sex with her? After all, it's her own fault for not paying attention to the road.

Sorry x-post (sort of) with LadySybil

Savanna, I'm really sorry for your experience but I think there are some differences:

First, a second guy did not come along and have sex with you whilst you were passed out. If he had, at that point, you would have been too drunk to have consented. The person that you had sex with was the equivalent of Macdonald, who was acquitted, not Evans.

Secondly, as I understand it, Evans part in the rape was filmed, which was probably used in court and showed her lack of consent. Considering the conviction rates for rape are so low, if a jury found him guilty that means something.

Third, you didn't go to the police after did you? This woman did, knowing that what she was doing, bringing a charge of rape against a footballer, would lead to such public scrutiny, yet with no financial gain. My money is on her feeling strongly enough about it because it actually happened.

Lastly, wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a world where a gentleman sees a drunk woman and instead of thinking "woohoo, fair game" puts her in a taxi and sends her home? What kind of sickness is it that these men felt it was ok to take advantage of her in this way? That in itself should be a crime IMO.

I think what I am trying to say is that I don’t believe her I think she got drunk went back with guys and then felt extremely bad for having sex with them and called rape. I fully support his girlfriend and I would do the same if it was my husband.

Ah yes, the well worn excuse that women simply regret having sex so they pretend they were raped. For no reason at all. Then they go through all of the proceedures for making a formal accusation - the internal exams, multiple interviews, all that - and manage to convince the police and the prosecution service and a jury. They waste all that time, effort and face all that humiliation and invasion because they regretted doing something perfectly legal. They keep their story straight under intense pressure and convince multiple people.

That's far more likely than that they've actually been raped as they've claimed.

Also, in this instance, she didn't go back with "guys". The guy who was finally convicted wasn't there by her invitation.

What you came up with is completely diffrent and of course that is rape. I only wanted to tell my story and give my op.

4 players charged with sexual assault and voyeurism. Of course they have only been charged and it will be a while before the case comes to court, so innocent until proven guilty, etc. However, there do seem to be an inordinate amount of stories and allegations of football players being involved with this sort of stuff.

I will say again that the FA need to be absolutely clear of their stance on this. Will they continue to condone such horrendous criminal acts by their members? Or will they put a stake in the ground and say that players found guilty of such acts will not be tolerated (or awarded). I am sure as hell positive that if someone who worked as a project manager or a civil servant would not be allowed his job back following a conviction for rape, much less still be allowed to collect a professional award after his conviction.

Incidents like this have been happening for years, Rindercella.

Just got the following reply from the Liberal Democrats

Thank you for contacting us regarding the comments made by Liberal Democrat council candidate Liam Elvish on Facebook about the Ched Evans case.
I would like to make it absolutely clear that the party does not agree with the views expressed by Mr Elvish. It is completely inappropriate and damaging to make light of offences such as rape. He has now recognised his mistake and has apologised for his remarks.
However, the Liberal Democrats take comments like these very seriously. The local party will be looking into these comments and will take appropriate further action.
Thank you once again for making us aware of your concerns on this matter.
Kind regards,
Rory Belcher
Liberal Democrats

Will keep an eye on the appropriate further action. I hope that this is done before Thursday

I believe her.

I can't get over just how frequent rape is in our society today. Disgusting and depressing.

Savannah

You woke up, and in your own words said you felt that you had not been raped.

Your experience is just that. Your Experience. So don't make the mistake of extrapolating your experience onto that of others.

The court found Evans guilty of rape. It is very hard to secure a conviction of rape. He was found guilty.

I believe her.

I think the thing about all this that's making me so angry is that so many people think it's the victim's fault for "getting themselves into that situation".

I don't know how to explain that it isn't consensual because she didn't say no.

It's rape because she didn't say yes.

I think the thing about all this that's making me so angry is that so many people think it's the victim's fault for "getting themselves into that situation".

Yep, and of course, they don't think about the very tricky road that's going to lead them down. If rape victims are responsible because they're in a situation, is a child responsible for being raped by a family member for being in that family? Is a wife responsible for being raped by a husband because she's in the same house? Is an elderly person in care home responsible for their rape because of their situation?

The fact is this. Nobody has the right to put as much as a finger on another person without their express consent. Being drunk is not consent. Existing is not consent. Being in a room is not consent. Being outdoors is not consent.

You do not touch someone unless they are OK with it. You just don't do it. No grey areas. None.

This thread is to support the woman in the Ched Evans case.

I believe you.

You articulate yourself so much better than I can apocalypse.

I believe her.

I believe her.

I believe her.

Men need to know that they can't rape women.
They can't rape drunk women.
They can't rape women wearing skimpy clothes.
They can't rape women who are their girlfriends and wives just because they are in the same room as them and they think they own them and have the right to!

I believe her

I believe her.
A jury believed her.
A judge believed her.
QED.

SavannaandAddisonmommy think that you're own experience is valid as it is your experience, however your circumstances were different and I think it isn't appropriate to come on a supportive thread for a girl suffering a backlash in the press and in small sections of society to state your belief.
This isn't AIBU.
Have some compassion for that poor girl

The Judge has no say in the verdict. He is the one who passed down the minimum sentence available to him.

Another way of putting what I said it is that young people are deliberately getting themselves into states where their judgement is seriously impaired to the point where they are completely out of control of their own actions on an alarmingly regular basis.

I certainly don't think that a woman deserves to be raped because she's was very drunk, but I do think that she would have seriously impaired judgement, may not be able to walk or talk properly and may even be unconscious. To me that is vulnerable and it worries me sick that my DD will be part of this culture.

Can I ask why the other footballer didn't get a conviction? Surely if she was too drunk to consent to one then she was too drunk to consent to the other?

I believe her.

Getting an obviously pissed women in a car, driving her to a hotel and then having sex with her is rape. They maintained she was in control of her actions, the hotel receptionist maintained that she was not and that hotel receptionist was so concerned that he/she went to the room to check on what was happening. I'm just sad they didn't report it to the police straight away.

To me that is vulnerable and it worries me sick that my DD will be part of this culture.

Mmmm. I think that's a concern for another thread. In light of the remarks that people have made about this woman, I'm sure you can see how it comes across as victim-blaming, even if that's not your intention.

And I also think that a huge number of women have been raped while drunk but don't remember what had happened, or think they have consented when they haven't. This girl's story is only the tip of the iceberg.

Clearly I also think it is disgusting that men think they can get away with rape if the women is paralytic.

Can I ask why the other footballer didn't get a conviction?

Well, as I've said before, I suspect it's down to the whole idea that if she wasn't actually struggling, consent was implied in this case, even if we all know that going to a room with someone is not consent and even if it were, that she would have had the right to withdraw consent. I imagine that the jury decided that going to the hotel showed that she did consent in the first instance, but the manner in which the second man came on the scene didn't imply consent in the same way.

I wasn't on the jury and am not party to any of their deliberations, however, knowing the reasons why women often fail to get a conviction in these cases leads me to suspect that that was what happened.

ApocalypseThen - yes point taken, I do believe her, I am just hoping this thread is also going to highlight ways in which we can begin to combat this

I believe her

Apocalypse makes some good points one of the reasons many VICTIMS of rape abuse etc don't come forward is because of the misconception of being judged by others because they judge themselves.

Their not to blame the perpetrator is you should be able to walk down the street with very revealing clothes , very drunk and be safe reality is that life isn't like that unfortunately.

I believe her x

Kushti, I have been that drunk that I'm sure a lot of people on this thread will have been too. We are responsible mothers who have all got a little carried away at times and I, like others, have found myself in vulnerable situations where I could have been taken advantage of. But believe it or not, it's against the law to take advantage of unconscious women.

You could be lying sprawled out on the pavement with no clothes on and you should be able to expect someone decent to help you home and not to rape you.

This implication that women put themselves into vulnerable situations works on the premise that men cannot control their own dicks and when they come across a pretty but drunk girl, they have to stick their penises in there.

Those two men made a choice on that night. They knew the girl was vulnerable. They had a hotel room booked specifically for the purposes of shagging someone. They didn't ask her consent, they presumed it and knew she was incapable of putting up a fight. They probably hoped she wouldn't remember anything the next morning and would just stay quiet. But the idiots filmed themselves and the hotel receptionist backed up her story.

Men are not children. They are grown up adults who make decisions and choices and now they have to face the consequences. It's a shame we have to drum it into our daughters never to walk home alone, never accept a drink from a stranger, never wear revealing clothes etc just in case some bastard decides he fancies a shag.

I am just hoping this thread is also going to highlight ways in which we can begin to combat this

The only way (to my mind) is to hammer the point about what consent actually is home. I think if we start making women responsible for men's actions by forcing women to change their non-criminal behaviour so as not to give anyone an excuse to go around assaulting us, we're getting into very dangerous territory.

Thank you for explaining that Apocalypse.

I believe her.

anybody going to be emailing Brighton and Hove Albion re their 3 players? Their web site is a total mess! Looks like and over excited teenage boy designed it.

Anyway, it's an absolutely alarming epidemic of casual sex abuse in football atm, or so it seems.

Watched a programme t'other night about the 70's, how women were fighting for equality, pubs with rooms barring women, so sex equality act, equal pay etc. Our mothers' generation fought for so much, and so hard against oppression and injustice, and it honestly feels like in many ways we're worse off now than then

As for the lady in this case, I believe you! I'm grateful that you were strong enough to take a stand. I hope you can feel proud of yourself and the support from so many people.

It's time we took a stand against this.

Just got what seems to be a standard reply from the Liberal Democrats:

Thank you for contacting us regarding the comments made by Liberal Democrat council candidate Liam Elvish on Facebook about the Ched Evans case.
I would like to make it absolutely clear that the party does not agree with the views expressed by Mr Elvish. It is completely inappropriate and damaging to make light of offences such as rape. He has now recognised his mistake and has apologised for his remarks.
However, the Liberal Democrats take comments like these very seriously. The local party will be looking into these comments and will take appropriate further action.
Thank you once again for making us aware of your concerns on this matter.
Kind regards,
Rory Belcher
Liberal Democrats

Very few rapes happen by a stranger attacking someone walking down a street so it should not be a judgement on the victim what they wear where they walk. Most rapes happen within the home within a relationship

An unfortunate surname for Rory there.

I've never considered myself to be a feminist, I do believe in equal rights for men and women though and I'm truly disgusted with what I see around me. Women are still not an equal, we are underpaid, spoken down to, raped, beaten and abused. It's no better in 2012 then it was in 1912 or earlier come to think of it. Something needs to be done. We are not blow up dolls for men to have sex with and abandon. What do I need to join? (sorry for digressing.)

I believe her.

I believe her.

I dislike the genearl Mumsnet "I Believe You" campaign because it implies a presumption of guilt by the third party without trial by peers, against one of the central tenets of British Justice.

However, this woman has had her case heard by a trial of peers and Ched Evans was found guilty. So YES I BELIEVE YOU.

I believe her.

I have just emailed the Lib dems and wonder how on earth they can still pursue him as a candidate. Clearly if we have political candidates or political party members trivialising such an attack and calling Ched Evans sentence excessive we have a serious problem of the people running for government. He should be publicly shamed as should Mr. Evans and not be allowed to play for a professional team ever again. What kind of culture are we living in when celebs think they are one above and believe they can get away with what they do. Now its time to put a stop to this and to show them it is not on.

I believe her.

It takes a lot to get me to un-lurk and post. I think she has been incredibly courageous and hope this show of support helps in some small way.

I believe her.
Elvish hasn't apologies for what he said, that email from LD head office is wrong. He apologised if anyone was offended, which is a passive, crap non-apology.

I believe her.

I believe her.

I have also contacted the libdems about Liam Elvish's appalling comments.

He will probably just issue a mealy-mouthed 'sorry if anyone found my comments offensive'. Thats the worst apology ever.

I received the same bland repsonse from rory Belcher. I have written back to point out his apology was not for the comments but for causing offence.

I just feel I cannot let this one drop, this feels like a watershed moment and I hope so much all this public support for this woman makes a difference.

I've just sent the following to Rory Belcher:

Dear Mr Belcher

As far as I am aware Mr Elvish has only apologised for any offence that he has caused not for his remarks. The two are NOT the same. He is clearly unfit for political office.

Yours sincerely

MammaBrussels

I can't believe the Liberal Democrats aren't taking this more seriously. He should not be standing for election.

I believe her and I hope she stays strong and takes comfort from the fact that everyone with any sense does too.

Think its about time Facebook stopped giving airspace to people who support violence against women and girls. They are directly feeding a culture that leads to only 1 rape in 10 being actually reported because of fear that the victim will be harrassed and repeat attacked and villified on line and in real life. If a woman is too drunk to stand up, then she is too drunk to run away from an aggressor - just as she would be too drunk to fight off a mugger. As a society we have to stand up for people's freedom to enjoy a night out unmolested, not for a rapist to rape or steal with impunity.

I believe her

A lot of posters on here are so eloquent. They are articulating a lot of things that I wouldn't even begin to know how to say so fantastically to the point.

I was attacked and raped (technically) when I was 17. I was drunk and on my own in a cab and I didn't go to the police. A huge part of the reason why I didn't was because I was very drunk and had been seen missing a number of different boys that evening and so I wouldn't look like what society want to see in terms of a victim IYSWIM.

This girl has been very brave and is being, as a PP has said already, raped all over again. This time not by the justice system but by members of the public. To hear that members of political parties are making disgusting comments as well is just the icing on a very sickening cake.

I've said it before, but I'm saying it again:

I believe her.

I believe her

I believe her

So sorry about your experience TwllBach

AJsDaddy ... That AJ is a lucky lad. Well said

I believe her. The judge and jury believe her. According to the petition, over 16,000 people believe her.

it doesn't matter how drunk you are, rape is still rape. that poor girl has suffered enough. i am just wondering if all sides should just let it go. its not our arguement and although i am sure she appreciates the support 1/ we are fuelling arguements from the twats and 2/ she should be allowed to move on. she needs to be able to recover in peace. and just to be clear i completely believe her!

I believe her too.

I believe her too.

Thank you for being brave. I believe you.

I believe her. Because she was telling the truth.

I believe her.

I had a message for savanna earlier on which was eaten by my phone. grr.

savanna, you woke up to find the last person you had been chatting to on top of you.

You did not wake up to that person, some other random bloke you don't know and two other voyeurs.

Can you tell the difference?

By the way I withhold my opinion on the guy who had sex with you whilst you were in and out of consciousness.

Generally, my current thoughts are: Guys know when they want to have sex. Great for them. It is NEVER up to the guy to decide when a woman wants to have sex. Just like he has the right to know when he wants sex, she also has the right to that decision. Once he makes this decision on her behalf and acts on it, there is a question of rape. Well, it is not a question in my mind.

Replace guy and woman depending on the sexuality of the partners as you see fit.

Poor baby, she's just a little girl I believe you get better get strong

I believe her.

She did not consent. That is that. Being drunk, getting into taxis, talking to footballers - none of those things constitute consent to sex.

I believe her.

I hope she feels the support that she's getting from all sane people and ignores those who are standing up for a convicted rapist. I can't even imagine that at 19 I would have been so brave to go through a trial, see this reaction, and not crumble. I hope she understands that so many of us are rooting for her and believe she WILL GET THROUGH THIS.

Also have emailed LibDems. It's heartbreaking.

I believe her.
How can anyone not?
The football world should be so very ashamed.

I bellieve her.
Shame on the lib dems too.

I believe her.

I believe her.

As a mother of a teenage girl who is an ardent Sheffield Utd fan I am not sure what to think about this or to say to her. It is horrible that the girl has been named and vilified but do I tell my daughter that getting so drunk you cannot remember what you did is acceptable? Maybe there are better role models for this campaign?

sylview are you serious? If your daughter was raped when she was drunk would you think it was her fault?

Sylvie, you tell your daughter that NO MATTER WHAT if she gets drunk, or drugged or is stone cold sober NO ONE has the right to have sex with her. Not even a Blades player

#ibelieveher

She's not a role model for any campaign Sylview, she's the victim of a violent sexual assault. Why would you need to tell your daughter that getting drunk is acceptable? Would you not be more concerned with the type of role model the footballers are providing?

Can we stop with the drunk comments please? Aside from all the very valid points already made about her state of drunkeness not being a form of consent the girl in question believes she may have been drugged prior to ending up in the take away. She believes she drank no more than she usually would on a night out without being effected so badly. The take away manager also stated that she was in a state he had never seen her in before.

And again drunk does not equal fair game. Just so we are clear on that. In fact it means the opposite. No real man would want to penetrate a female so drunk that she can barely talk. Only a rapist would do that. Only the rapist would be responible for his actions. Not the victim, not the drink and not anything else.

I believe her.

I was sexually assaulted when I was 14 he was 18. I was out and was very drunk. The victim in this case has my utmost respect for having the guts to report it. Something I could not do but wish I did.

SeventhEverything Of course not but I think we all have a duty of care to our kids - and suggesting if you are drunk you should be safe seems not the right message and as I said before I am not sure what the answer is.

can i just say that if you are raped you tend to sober up very quickly-unfortunately

Sylvie what a stupid thing to say!! Was it my fault when I was assaulted because I was very very drunk? I put myself in a compromising position by going off with him I never asked for what he did though!!

You should be safe from rape if you are drunk. Rapists also rape sober people you know? And people they know. And people in the comfort of their own home.

If you are unfortunate enough to be in the presence of a rapist not being drunk will not keep you safe.

Of course people should not get so drunk they can barely walk. They might stumble into the road and get hit by a car, they might fall into a canal, they might fall asleep in the cold and die of hypothermia. Staying sober enough to be in control can protect you from all of those things. It cannot, unfortunately, protect you from rape. Only the rapist can do that by choosing not to rape you.

I was referring to the 1st comment

Dooin I agree...sadly I learnt that a very difficult way.

Sorry i seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here when I was just asking a question- and seem to have been misunderstood so I will back out

Theglassishalffull, I would argue that you didn't put yourself in a compromising position at all. You went off with another person, that's a normal thing people do, that was not wrong in any way. Yes, you were drunk, that's another normal thing people do. He assaulted you. That is a crime. You are in no way to blame for what he did. You didn't put yourself in any compromising position you were just an ordinary person doing normal things who had the horrible bad luck to come in contact with a criminal. Please don't take any of the blame for it.

If you are drunk you should be safe from rapists sylview, that is the right message to give your daughter. If you don't give her that message then the only other possible message is that if she does get drunk and gets raped then she is partially to blame because she should expect to get raped if she is drunk. Do you want to give her that message?

I believe her.

I have said this already, but it's worth saying again:

I believe her.

I emailed the Lib Dems (the local branch that represents Hellish, sorry Elvish - haven't even had the standard response email back. Pah.

I believe her.

Sylview, if someone were stabbed when drunk, would you say they had been irresponsible, and were not a good role model for a campaign against knife crime? It's precisely the same thing. (And please, don't embarrass yourself yet further by pretending that you would.) Shocking comments from another woman. Shameful and frightening.

As to believing her - it is sad and rather pathetic that that even needs saying. She's brave as hell for taking this all the way, given the way she has been treated and the status of the piece of shit who did this to her. She is a rape victim, and deserves society's complete support. What she's been given instead makes me despair. Thank God for Mumsnet.

I believe her.

I also applaud her, she took on goliath and got a danger to women locked up. A huge achievement, just so brave

I believe her.

And those who named and insulted her on Twitter and other social media sites should be prosecuted - or at least be warned they can be prosecuted. They are treading on very thin ice and could soon be made a precedent of.

If a woman is drunk that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

If a woman is over friendly but refuses to have sex that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

If a woman changes her mind about going ahead with sex that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

If a woman works as a prostitute that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

If a woman is drugged and acting oddly that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

No means no. (And the same applies for male victims - no means no.)

I believe her

I believe her.

I still believe her. Have been reading tweets this morning from Ched supporters who consider him a hero. Don't know whether to feel sickened by them or feel sorry for them.

#IBelieveHer

I believe her.

A friend got very drunk at her 21st birthday party. She went for a lie down in her bedroom and pretty much passed out. Woke up to find some man just finishing up, thank you very much. That is RAPE. (She got pregnant from this too .)

they are not doing him any favours. If they had left the victim alone, who knows how his appeal would have gone. I would say the outcome is fairly clear now though. They must be awfully thick not to realise how much they are damaging his case.

I wish this hadn't happened to this girl, but from society's point of view, I'm glad that the toxic attitudes are getting a decent airing now and everyone can see what feminists have been saying for years - we live in a rape culture where the crime of rape is minimised and the victim is routinely blamed. I've seen so much denial of this, but now it's all out in the open we can tackle it remorselessly.

Just remembered that this also happened to another friend of mine, this time at a party at her boyfriend's house! Neither of these friends reported the rape, as is the case with so many rapes.

The jury must have had overwhelming evidence to convict this footballer. In this hero-worship culture, I would imagine that sadly there would have been plenty of the jurors who would not have believed her otherwise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/aug/12/layla-jailed-after-reporting-sexual-assault?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

This is not a new story but one I've only just read. I am speechless :-(

www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/aug/12/layla-jailed-after-reporting-sexual-assault?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

I believe her.

I posted "I believe her" on that horrible FB group calling for Ched Evans to get a retrial. My post was deleted quite quickly, but not before I received lots of nasty messages from women (!) supporting him...

Goodness I just read the story posted by Longtime I am also utterly speechless. Poor girl.

Longtime, you seem to be happy that the footyball player was sent down, but unhappy about the layla case?

Surely if you beleive the justice system to be wrong in one case it could be wrong in the otehr?

I don't know enough aout either case to comment upon them directly, but in my eyes the cases of viscious women claiming rape is as abhorrent as rape itself and should be dealt with accordingly.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1003683/Jailed-The-evil-21-year-old-seduced-soldier-accused-rape.html

What would have happened to the bloke in this instance? Sent to prison, dodgint the other lags, doging boiling water and sugar, the 'black mark' against his name...

It's been in the news. I hate these imbeciles who feel the need to trawl her name in public.

yay! Great news.

Have just plastered: I believe her #IBelieveHer over that rancid FB page.

Good news on the arrests!

Still waiting for a turn-around from the PFA though... The FA seemed to be outraged by the Sun's headline from yesterday. I assume this to be moral outrage. Couldn't be bothered to read the story. They care more about sun headlines than rape convictions...

Wonder if moral outrage will hit the PFA some time soon.

I believe her

I believe her.

I've signed the petition asking the PFA to remove him from their honours list and liked the Facebook page.

I've given my reasons for signing the petition as being that it isn't good enough for the PFA to say the votes were cast before the guilty verdict. It was irresponsible (at best) to vote for him knowing that a case was pending or a trial was ongoing. And you cannot separate the rape from his profession as they used their status as footballers to pick up women and to claim that women want to have sex with them because of the job they do. Even to claim that that is what this woman did.

Not good enough PFA. His status as a footballer is very much bound up in this case and he does not deserve to be professionally honoured in any way because of that. To keep him on the list dishonours every other person on that list and any decent sportsman on it should ask to be removed from it if YOU keep Ched Evans on it because YOU ARE condoning what he did to this woman.

And sorry if this has already been posted but these are the contact details for the PFA if anyone wants to email them directly to request his removal from their honours list.

I believe her !!

I can't believe this has passed me by for so long. Must have been hiding under a rock.
I believe her!
And have signed the PFA petition.

Guardian reporting on an international echo - ugly response by a so-called journalist (perhaps he is, perhaps he is not, apparently they wish to protect his anonymity) on the English language kremlin steered Russia Today:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/02/russia-today-ched-evans-rapeRussiaToday

sniff. I can do links, really I can

here

at least have the guts to use your name

I believe her

I believe her.

Have emailed PFA.

I believe her. So did the jury.

20 thousand signatures now asking for Ched to lose his place in the team of the year.

I believe her... as do 1609 people (and rising) on Facebook.

Great news re: the petition

I imagine because I have "liked" the We Believe You page on FB - I'm now getting the "Securing and Immediate Retrial" page under "recommended pages" which seems rather dubious . Anyone else? Worth taking up with FB do you think?

maristella said:

"I also applaud her, she took on goliath and got a danger to women locked up. A huge achievement, just so brave"

This, this, and this again. If there is any way Mumsnet can get that message to her from the members here - that she has made the world a little safer for each and every one of us by doing this, and our daughters, too, and that we know it and are grateful to her - I hope they do. She deserves to know her courage is not unrecognised and not unappreciated.

Are you, Bramshott? I do think it's very much worth taking up with Facebook. Is anyone else having this problem?

I've sent my email to the PFA too. If I get a reply I will post it here.

The PFA are using the excuse they have to support him through his appeal, it seems, as they're his union...

I believe her.

Discussing this with my 15 year old, he said the men should have looked after her when they knew she was very drunk and then unconscious and helped her get safely back home. What sort of mental age has Ched Evans? What sort of men film an act like this instead of helping her?

This brave woman deserves all our support. I hope she's made aware of this.

Mapleleef, that sounds like a very sensible DS you have.

I believe her, and well done to her for doing the right thing by society and reporting it to the police. She may well have done other women a big favour.

I just want to say to any rape survivors out there reading girlpancake's post that if you didn't report your rape you didn't do the "wrong thing" and it is your choice whether to report or not. When you've gone through something like that there is no "right thing" to do and you are under no obligation to do anything you don't want to do.

I suppose it could be because I looked at the page before (when it was linked from this thread). I certainly don't want it "recommended" though.

I believe her

Any updates / anything more we can do?

This ......... notes: 1. Ched Evans of Sheffield Utd and three other men were involved in the rape of a young woman. 2. Supporters of Sheffield Utd and Ched Evans unlawfully named the woman and perpetuated a series of rape myths on social network sites, for which some have been arrested. 3. This ......... further notes the prevalence of rape and sexual assault in Britain, affecting 25% of women resulting in only a 6% conviction rate. 4. This ........ further notes TUC policy on violence against women. 5. This ........ further notes that the PFA is affiliated to TUC. 1. This ......... calls on the TUC to require affiliates to use appropriate disciplinary procedures against members acting in contravention of TUC policy on violence against women. 2. To produce educational materials on the law relating to sexual violence and consent, in collaboration with Rape Crisis; to be distributed to fans through publication in match programmes, adverts shown at grounds, televised matches and the national press. 3. These actions to start with immediate effect.

Please note - we don't yet have the OK from Rape Crisis, but you could delete that bit and replace with 'Women's Committee'' or similar.

If you're in a union or know someone who is, contact your branch secretary to get this on the agenda of the next meeting. Get the TUC to actively suppo/rt their own polic ies!

I have the "we believe her" on my facebook - some of the article have "Trigger warnings" what does that mean?

On what grounds is Ched Evans appealing?

Trigger warnings is a warning for victims that it may trigger memories its not nice when you come across them.

I believe her.

Thanks for posting that link to the PFA NoOnesGoingTo.

The other person it might be worth getting in contact with, is Clarke Carlisle, the chairman of the PFA. According to one of the posters on the We Beleive You Facebook page, he made a statement of support for the White Ribbon campaign and he's an ambassador for Kick It Out. So really, he should have somethng to say about this. Here's his blog site:

www.realbuzz.com/blogs/u/Clarke_Carlisle/clarke-carlisle-s-blog/

I believe her.

Thanks Dotty - oh and i forgot to say - i believe her!

bramshott I got the same, I was not impressed at all!

I believe her, of course I do.

Thanks Casserole. I've emailed.

And I believe her.

Is this actually how you want justice in the UK to be handled?

One lot of people saying they don't believe, and another lot saying they do.

We have a perfectly good system, that works this sort of thing out.

The courts.

I believe her

I believe her.

No, we don't have a perfectly good justice system, FourSquare.

We have a justice system that is set up to enable rapists to rape women and get away with it.

The vast majroity of rapes go unreported because victims know that there is no point going through the humiliation and trauma of reporting.

Of the tiny minority of rapes which are reported, only 6% end in a conviction , even thought the rate of false accusations is between 2-8%.

And even when a woman brave and determined enough is able to get a conviction, she is named and vilified and subjected to a bloody vicious hate campaign online. Some men who posted, threatened to rape her again if they ever met her. And they know who she is.

Anyone who starts crying justice when it comes to rape, just hasn't been concentrateing. There fucking isn't any.

How do you work that out FourSquare slap on the wrist for the perpetrator and a fucking life sentence for the victim and humiliation of them in the process.

I was violently raped aged 12 by a 45year old man, my step father, who was repeatedly sent home from court after being let off GBH charges as it was domestic violence.

There's no difference between a 12 year old sober child being raped than a drunk woman. It's the ultimate soul destroying, sickening violation.

I believe her and I would say to her, she's not alone in being hated, I have been, stay strong, you know who the sick people are

And yes I have a life sentence, horrific flashbacks of a violent rape and high levels of dissociation because of the trauma.

The rapists should get life.

FormSquare you don't seem to have any understanding of what this thread is actually about.

This isn't how we want justice in the UK to be handled. At all. That's the point. Threads like these, Facebook pages like these, they shouldn't be necessary. A vile crime was committed and the perpetrator has been sentenced. That should be the end of it.

But it isn't. So we are trying to make ourselves heard to make a fucking difference to the way rape victims are treated both politically and in the media.

And suggesting that we have 'a perfectly good system' when it comes to cases of sexual violence is a frighteningly ignorant thing to say.

Me to coffee knowing what a rape/abuse victim goes through when they go to the police imho no-one in their right mind would lie its to damn horrible she is honest.

Form - we are saying 'I believe her' because she has been raped, and the rapist has been convicted, but disgusting creeps on Twitter thought it was funny to abuse her, to post horrible, horrible comments about her and to break the law by naming her. The woman has not only suffered by being raped, but by being abused in public and by losing her legally-guaranteed anonymity. We are sending a message that the disgusting creeps who have attacked her are in the minority and there are lots of decent people who DO believe her.

I believe her

FormSquare, the courts have found this man guilty of rape.
His victim is being villified, whilst he, the rapist, is being held up as a sports hero and a wrongly-accused scapegoat.

Some of the comments about this woman is beyond belief.
Some of the rape myths being flung around would make your skin crawl.

Lots of people want to make a stand and show that they will not let this go unchallenged.

Showing victims of rape that they are believed is a vital statement, which reaches far beyond this individual case.

I believe her.

FormSquare

The #ibelieveher campaign (here, Facebook, twitter and anywhere else) is a reaction to the way this woman has been treated, even after "justice" was served. She's been vilified. she's been named. She's been silenced.

We're showing there's people on her side, and as admin of the FB page can tell you, we seem to be bringing other women out of silence too, even if it's only in a PM to the page. "I Believe her" can repair what the claims of the Ched supporters seek to silence

Formsquare - with all due respect, yes there is a system in place. But even the people who work WITHIN the system - the judges, barristers, solicitors, etc will say that the system does not work perfectly and sometimes does not work well. It will only work as well as the people within it are able to. Justice for rape victims and the fair handling of a rape case has come a long way even in the last 20 years, and is vastly different to how it was 50 years ago. Until one has had direct experience of the situation, one cannot begin to comprehend how much of it is stacked unfairly against the victim in the first place.

Utter shock and repulsion at what happened to Layla Ibrahim.

I believe her too.

I believe you

I believe her

I believe her.

So an internet based 'mob' is acceptable?

How many people putting 'I beleive her' are doing it to look cool on the t'interweb (like those rubber bands you see everyone wearing now adays in a desperate attempt to look caring) or even know the first thing (from primary source) about that case? Or Layla's?

I can't find a link now, but certanly one young lad was forced to leave home and hide due to a 'hue and cry' style mob and a false accusation of rape. Even AFTER the girl involved retracted, admitted she wasn't raped and the evidence (including CCTV evidence) as released. She walked around not a care in the world, he wasn't able to attend a family funeral!

The link I put in above had a young lads life wrecked for 15 months, the woman who accused him of rape got 12 months in nick. And there were no end of campagning for her name to be withheld... no such protection for innocent men, merely accused of being a rapist.

Rape cases are such an issue that, quite frankly, the Police MUST be absolutely sure that they are doing the right thing. Not just listening to some made up story from a mental case. The bloke is going to suffer in a big way, for hte rest of his life. Even if it turns out that the accuser was talking rubbish.

It isn't all about the raped woman. Her rights don't suddenly trump all because she claims rape. Jilted lovers, turned down women and utter nutters have all made false claims. And the way our society is once a mans name is in the papers with the word 'rape' then he may aswell go jump off a cliff.

Do carry on with your e-Mob.

"It isn't all about the raped woman. Her rights don't suddenly trump all because she claims rape".

I don't understand what your point is, but then you don't seem to understand the point of this thread either.

No-one is saying that her rights trump all.

Lots of people ARE saying that the victim of a convicted rapist deserves to remain anonymous, in accordance with the law.

Lots of people ARE saying that the victim of a convicted rapist does not deserve to be villified and become the focus of a hate campaign.

And they are saying that by grouping together to say it as loudly and in many places as possible, because this shit has gone on for way too long, and it is time things changed.

Do you understand what this thread is about, Formsquare? It is a support thread for a victim of rape (the rapist was TRIED AND CONVICTED) who has had to suffer her right to anonymity being removed.

It has nothing to do with false allegations of rape, which are of course deplorable, and everything to do with support for a young woman.

I object to your post on the grounds of irrelevance, and general decency. It reads as an apology for rapists.

Could you please stop repeating rape myths on a support thread for a rape victim FormSquare.

The police do not have to be any more careful with rape allegations than they do with the allegation of any other crime, becasue women do not lie about rape any more than anyone else lies about any other crime and the life and welfare of someone accused of rape, is not more valuable than the life and welfare of someone accused of any other crime.

To state or imply that this is the case, is to promote rape myths and on a thread to support the woman Ched Evans raped, that behaviour is disgraceful.

Please keep your misogyny off this thread.

FormSquare, you are quite misunderstanding the situation. The girl in the Ched Evans case was raped and her rapist was found guilty. What are you referring to?

So an internet based 'mob' is acceptable

No it isn't. The Internet based mob that vilified a poor young girl that was raped are disgusting human beings that need to be punished.

How many people putting 'I beleive her' are doing it to look cool on the t'interweb

Very few - none I know. Although by the same token how many of the disgusting specimens that villified this poor young girl and spread lie after lie about her are doing so to look cool to other Blades fans?

I can't find a link now Ohh theres a surprise.

but certanly one young lad was forced to leave home.... and certainly one young girl was vilified on the internet and in her home town called a slag and a slut, accused of lying, accused of doing it before, accused of crying rape because she opposed a rival football team. Is her treatment worse?

no such protection for innocent men, merely accused of being a rapist and no such protection for the victime of Ched Evan whose named was released, and was accused of lying about being raped.

the Police MUST be absolutely sure that they are doing the right thing They were sure, so was the CPS and so was the jury that conviced Ched Evan.

It isn't all about the raped woman yes it is - and glad to see you admit that she was raped.

And the way our society is once a mans name is in the papers with the word 'rape' then he may aswell go jump off a cliff and if the man is conviceted of rape - well frankly I hope he does.

Do carry on with your e-Mob Thank you, we will

I believed her then, I believe her now, I will always believe her. Ched Evan admitted he had sex with her, and admitted that she was drunk and incapable. He may not think that was rape - but thankfully the law does.

Take heart my love, if you are reading this, FormSquare is not a representative of the decent women and men on this site We believe you

FormSquare does not misunderstand. FormSquare is making a cynical effort to derail the thread and misrepresent it as a "mob".

How about you start a thread of your own, FormSquare, to air your opinions regarding the "made up stories of mental cases" and how they threaten the freedom of Britain's young men? This thread is clearly not the place for that particular discussion.

Excellent post LtEveDallas

FormSquare - as you yourself have stated, we have a justice system to deal with this kind of thing.

The Justice System found Ched Evans guilty of rape.

He is, therefore, a rapist. So your link to one woman who falsely accused someone of rape is not relevant. This woman has been put in front of a judge and jury and she was declared to be a rape victim whilst he was declared to be a rapist.

No doubt they trawled through lots of CCTV and evidence to reach their conclusions. We have an excellent justice system in the UK and they found him guilty.

What is happening now is that the case is being used by an ignorant section of society who do not believe in the justice system. Some of these people think that is a woman is too drunk to even stand up, then she is fair game to have sex with. Some have even described it as a "typical one night stand", which makes you wonder how many women they themselves, have raped.

If a man was so blatantly drunk that he could barely stand, and a group of homosexual men came across him, put him in a taxi, took him to a hotel room and then two of them had sex with him whilst others filmed it - would this be classed as rape? Because I'm damn sure that if that man woke up, feeling sore in his arse, with no clothes on and no memory; if he had to piece together what happened from the hotel receptionist and if the police seized footage of the incident on the perpetrators phones, what do you think would happen?

Why is this being seen as different because she is a woman?

What this campaign is doing is to highlight the rape myths circulating around this case. It is highlighting ignorant attitudes and it is sending out a clear message that if you have sex with someone who is not in a state to give consent - that is rape. Pure and simple. The UK Justice System agrees wholeheartedly with that. Hopefully by making this abundantly clear, women who were previously too afraid to report their attacks to the police may come forward and we can get more rapists off our streets.

This is not about falsely crying rape. She was exonerated in the courts. So any comparison to a single case involving a false accusation is completely and utterly irrelevant.

ooh, great letter Rowan.

Will be interesting to see what they come back with.

CherryBlossom, thank you

Rhubarb: This- Some have even described it as a "typical one night stand", which makes you wonder how many women they themselves, have raped terrifies me. I was horrifed at how many times I saw that sort of shit written down when all this blew up. Bloody good post.

Rowan, excellent letter, lets hope MN gets a decent reply.

Great posts Basil, Eve and Rhubarb.

One of the most disturbing tweets was the one that said something like "not premeditated but he gets 5 years for lack of consent". How can they not see that lack of consent is the definition of rape?!

And great letter MNHQ.

Yep, I think it shows just how common casual rape of women is.

And most women don't report it, becasue they put it down to "bad sex", or a mistake on their part, or they know it's rape but they won't get a conviction so they put it behind them and move on.

And the internet mob which has conducted a hate campaign against Ched Evan's victim, is bloody furious that one woman has managed to get justice for the casual rape they want to be free to carry on committing. They're scared that one day, they and their son's won't be able to do this anymore without being called to justice and that their daughters will be free from the threat of this.

Shows how much they love their daughters, doesn't it.

That's their favourite argument isn't it, what if it was your son? I'd be ashamed to be his mother if it was.

If it were my son, I'd be distraught.
And I'd feel mortified that our family had brought up a human being who could even begin to think that what he did was in any way acceptable.

I would think I had failed as a mother, to echo that woman in Strictly Ballroom.

Thank you for sending that letter MN.

I believe her.

Some have even described it as a "typical one night stand"

OMFG

I am just so very very sad for my daughter and all the other girls who are growing up in a world that presumes if you have a vagina, you're fair game.

My son will be brought up to respect the rights of everyone and should he ever ever cross the line, I'll be in court on the side of the prosecution.

the vilification of the victim, the words used to insult her, the identification of her by name on the net, the threats made towards her, the dismissal of the rape as something "we have all done", "just a another one night stand" and the "there but by the grace of God" type comments have stunned me. I hadn't realised the extent of this type of hatred. I hope a very clear message will be made in the way those offenders tracked down are prosecuted.It is very important to deal with this seriously.

Further down the thread someone posted 25% of women experience rape of sexual abuse. I don't know how this estimate was made but if that is realistic that is 1 in 4 women. THe chances that your dds or a woman you know personally could be subjected to it are very high if the figures are correct.

Ched Evan's parents are going through a very hard time. I don't personally wish anything bad on them or condemn them. What strikes me as important here is that our society needs changing so it is a safer place for women, we need more awareness of what constitutes rape (apparently a great deal of men and even women don't seem to know) and we need better support for victims of rape from the time they report through to post court procedure trauma. If rape cases so rarely come before the court and from those that do so few achieve a prosecution, perhaps we need a department that recognises this and provides support right the way through the process.

To my knowledge I know one victim of rape only. She was raped 10 years before I met her. She would still break down regularly because of it, she worked alongside her regular job to support victims of rape but she herself needed more than a shoulder to cry on. It has horrible long term effects. It is a terrible terrible thing to do to someone.

There was a comment on the other thread that is really worth repeating:

NorfolkNChance
'This idea of women being in a constant state of consent really concerns me. Unless we explicitly say no we are up for anything.'

Some people seem to have distorted the 'No means no' message in their tiny minds to such an extent that they actually believe it isn't rape unless the woman says no - unconscious people CAN'T SAY NO. IT IS STILL RAPE.

Sex is something that requires active consent.

^ Exactly what Puffin said ^

Exactly what NorfolkNChance said. The emphasis needs to be placed on proving that consent was given not proving that there was no consent.

Yes yes, I hate the way that some people think you have to literally say 'no' for it to be rape. It should be 'no until we say yes', not the other way around.

That's my reservation about that slogan NarkedPuffin. That it assumes No - it puts the onus on a woman, who may be scared, socialised to be polite, unbelieving that this is happening to her, to make sure a man doesn't rape her "by accident" instead of putting the onus on a man not to rape a woman "by accident" by ensuring that she actually wants him in her body. The onus should be on the person who is bigger and stronger and about to enter another person's body , to ensure that he's welcome there.

Here's a blog post about the reality of No which I think says it all:

fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/

I believe her

and thats a very good letter MNHQ.

I believe her

If the action of intoxicating a woman to such an extent that she is incapable of making a rational decision exempts a man from being found guilty of rape then that is surely giving men who are that way inclined carte blanche to ply any woman he desires with alcohol (or other substances) until she is at his mercy, or hunt out women who have themselves become drunk enough to be preyed upon.

Those women out there who have commented along the lines of "sounds like a normal one night stand" have an incredibly warped perspective on what is right and wrong, and sound themselves vulnerable for this type of abuse as a result.

I believe you,

I think the no means no message needs to change. It's been taken too literally for years now.

No does mean no but not saying no does not always mean yes, unless the woman actively says yes or likewise or is actively participating in the act then not saying yes or no also means no.

There are many reasons a woman may not say no. Fear of further violence, shock, lack of consciousness or inabilty of coherent speech owing to alcohol/medical reasons, simply not being able to find the words/power of speech because of what is happening etc.

There are men who get just as blotto on a night out and yet they aren't in fear of being raped.

I believe her.

Originally, No means No was part of a wider slogan:

Yes means yes, No means no
However we dress,
Wherever we go

The yes means yes bit has been well and truly dropped, hasn't it?

That's exactly the message I was trying to tweet the other day.

It isn't consensual because she didn't say no. It's rape because she didn't say yes.

I also tried too drunk to say no = too drunk to say yes

Apparently that means that "in my eyes that must mean that most of the population has been raped at some point then".

I managed to silence him with a reply of it's nothing to do with my eyes, it's the law. It's also basic human morality.

Funnily enough even an mra didn't have a comeback to that one.

Seriously though, the views of these people are both terrifying and unbearably sad in equal measure.

When did it become presume yes unless she says no? It's just heart breaking.

Hi I don't know if any of you have an app called Flipboard? It's very USA based, but the I Believe You campaign is currently one of its cover stories. The word is getting out there!

One warning the Page does lead to a You tube page about a photo project that maybe triggery but is vey moving.

I really hope that the letter to the PFA is noted and they actually remove Ched Evans from this honours list.

Football is basically the national sport in this country and footballers are in a position of responsibility whether they like it or not as they are heroes to many. They need to set an example and be good role models.

Rape is a very serious crime and it needs to be acknowledged. I can't understand why it is not always seen as such in the UK. There are so many myths about rape, it really needs to be brought to people's attention again.

I also think it would be hugely beneficial to have some sort of education about this in schools so that teenagers know what is right from wrong and if they ever do become victims of this crime they know there is support. They also need to be advised on how to look after themselves e.g. Not accepting drinks from strangers. It may seem over the top, but looking at the statistics, if so many people are victims of this crime then we need to be educating kids to help them avoid this.

I believe her

I've just sent a blistering reply to Roy Belcher/Nick Clegg for that awful reply, saying that Mr Elvish has no right to apologise for the offence I take at his comments - they were offensive and need to be retracted in full. The Libdems had a real opportunity to speak out now and say that Mr Elvish's comments were totally unacceptable and so is anything that anything which tries to make excuses for what happened, and they have blown it.

I really welcome this 'campaign' - it is more than time to stand up and be counted on this issue, and for women everywhere to be able to speak out loud and clear. Also welcome the reminder above that we can all contribute something to Rape Crisis too. Will be sending off a donation.

A one night stand?? - I believe when one has a one-night stand, one is entitled to choose who she has it with. The victim was pounced upon by two random men.

This isn't an e-mob; nobody is bombarding Mr Evans' email or Facebook account or crashing any websites at parliament or the football clubs. We are voicing our opinions peacefully and in an orderly manner.

Typo : "who she has it with" should read "whom he or she has it with".

Just had a response from Mr Belcher:

Thank you for contacting us regarding the comments made by Liberal Democrat council candidate Liam Elvish on Facebook about the Ched Evans case.

I would like to make it absolutely clear that the party does not agree with the views expressed by Mr Elvish. It is completely inappropriate and damaging to make light of offences such as rape. He has now recognised his mistake and has apologised for his remarks.

However, the Liberal Democrats take comments like these very seriously. The local party will be looking into these comments and will take appropriate further action.

Thank you once again for making us aware of your concerns on this matter.

Kind regards

DH also emailed last night and he's had exactly the same answer. We are at receiving stock, mass produced responses.

I am also not happy with the assertion that Mr Elvish has apologised for his remarks. He didn't. He apologised if he offended anyone but qualified this 'apology' by stating that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.

Not impressed.

Elvish came bottom of the poll in his ward - a derisory 100 votes. Still 100 too many. Can only assume he has a lot of relatives - who else would vote for a twat like that?

Can't make the link work for some reason, but here are the figures.

Candidate Votes
Conservative Elaine Still 900
Independent Jo Walke 735
Labour Ann Chapman 183
Liberal Democrat Liam Elvish 100
Rejected ballots 8

Turnout 1926
Conservative hold

Good.
Now he needs to apologise and get removed from their candidate list.

I believe her.

"This was a disgraceful verdict. So much for British justice. Ched has played brilliantly this season. Could anyone genuinely guilty of rape perform their job to such a high standard, especially one in the public eye? No way! Most people would hide away. Lets hope the appeal is successful and justice is finally done".

^^ from someone on the 'free ched evans' fb page. So they are conflating being able to play football well with whether you are a rapist or not? Beggars belief it really does

#Ibelievehere

Good GRIEF

Are these people in possession of a standard human brain?
And not one that was destined for some sewer amoeba or similar?

It says something about the education system in this country, that people can write something so utterly devoid of critical thinking.

It's so randomised - you can't be a rapist if you're good at football. What a very odd idea. What else can you not be a rapist if you're good at? Cooking? Ski-ing? Carpentry? And what's the scientific connection between whatever it is you're good at and that meaning that you can't be a rapist?

Do these people really believe this, or are they just dumbing down to bond with their peers? If they really believe it, tbh you have to feel a bit sorry for them, the world must be an extraordinarily confusing place for them. They must anticipate all sorts of connections that just don't exist and go through life in a fog of incomprehension.

Where have all these extra Puffins come from?

Jolyonsmummy this is what Daily Mail reported at the time "that before Evans became involved, McDonald got up and closed the curtains because a 'couple of lads' were watching through the window. ".

sylview, perhaps you should rely on more reputable news sources, as it might aid your understanding of matters. The Daily Mail famously described the scene and then quoted reactions on the spot from numerous sources when initially reporting that Amanda Knox's appeal had failed. It had succeeded. They made things up.

One of "the lads" was Ched Evans' own brother, and they claimed they were invited to join in by Macdonald. This is from contemporaneous legal reporting in the Guardian: Evans told police he went to the Premier Inn with his brother Ryan Roberts and "associate" Jack Higgins after he received a text from McDonald saying he had "got a bird". He claimed that after entering the hotel room, McDonald said: "Join in."In interview, McDonald told police that when he met the woman she asked him where he was going and told him she was going with him. He said she had not appeared to be drunk but admitted that others watched through the window.Philpotts said that while the attack happened Jack Higgins and Roberts had watched through a window. Video recordings found on Higgins's phone showed that he had been filming or trying to film the incident.

It's interesting that Macdonald denied she appeared drunk to police, because the Premier Inn receptionist testified that he was so concerned about her level of drunkeness that when he left he asked her to be aware that the girl in the room needed an eye kept on her.

"A receptionist at the hotel described the woman, who was 19 at the time and worked in a restaurant, as "extremely drunk" and said she was "stumbling" and "slurring" and occasionally grabbing hold of McDonald to steady herself.

The receptionist said he saw the two men who were waiting outside watching what was happening in the room through the window.

Afterwards, McDonald came through to reception and said: "You know that girl I was with? Keep an eye on her. She's sick." Philpotts said: "He knew how intoxicated the complainant was, dangerously intoxicated, so that she needed to be kept under observation for her own safety."

So yes, they did know. They were invited, they were involved. They are to an extent culpable.

This whole thing is depressingly redolent of a film called The Accused. It seems sod all has changed in 20 years.

FormSquare, I'm interested that you said this: "Rape cases are such an issue that, quite frankly, the Police MUST be absolutely sure that they are doing the right thing."

Because, you know, in this case the police were "absolutely sure" they were "doing the right thing". That's why the police put the case forward for prosecution.

And, you know what? The police believed her. The CPS believed her. The jury believed her. And a big pile of people here believe her.

I believe her.

Perfectstorm The daily mail account is taken from the questioning of the defendants and appears also on the BBC and several other online papers. The Guardian article is taken from the prosecutors case. The Guardian does not seem to have covered the defendants case as there is no article between the one you quoted and the verdict that comes up on their online search which I find strange.

You're ignoring two facts:

1) "two lads watching" does not reflect the fact that both were invited and one was the convicted rapist's brother
2) Evidence from the receptionist is not somehow solely prosecution evidence. It is witness evidence.

Though given your earlier comments, I'm not really interested in debating this (or indeed any other subject, now or in the future) with you. My time for rapist's apologists is exceedingly limited.

Oh - and citing SOLELY THE CONVICTED RAPIST'S OWN WORDS in your comment, without even acknowledging that that is what you are doing in that comment... words fail me. He was convicted. That means the jury did not believe him. Do you understand that?

sylview in a million years, there is no way, someone picks up a drunk and calls his/her friends over to share sexual activity with the drunk and it is ok. Curtains or no curtains.

Consent may have been given to the original person who picked the drunk up. Questionable at best but that consent does not transcend down a phone line unless the drunk is the one making the call or is screaming down the line for group sex as well...

I know you don't want your daughter going out and getting drunk. But excusing a rapist and thereby, letting a rapist go free to protect your daughter is absolutely one of the most dangerous acts a mother can commit.

Your daughter is a sheffield fan. She needs to know that what those boys did was absolutely bang out of order! She needs to learn not to drink herself into a stupor but she also needs to learn that the people she looks up to are also human and they do do stupid things to and have to face the consequences.

I find the whole topic very distressing and cannot read some of the experiences given on here without crying but I am getting nowhere nearer understanding the case or my daughter's reaction to it so I think i will stay away from mumsnet for a while.

I believe her. And it is totally depressing that in the year 2012 in the UK, people could be so utterly vitriolic towards the victim of a horrific crime. I thought we had moved on, but I fear we have not.

I know a young girl who was abducted and raped, and will have to face her attackers in court. I am sick at the thought of what she will go through, and terrified that she might not get justice. And after all this, I'm horribly frightened that even if she does, there will still be those who doubt her.

Treacle she shouldn't have to face her attackers trial should be done under special measures either video-link or screen if mine doesn't plead guilty its a video-link

I posted on the earlier thread that I believe her (though it bears repeating).

Getting a bit irate at reading rape-apologist sentiments on this of all threads, ffs.

Thoughts still with the victim, hope she's coping OK day-to-day.

Feak.. I wrote to Nick Clegg and got exactly the same response as you, word for word.

It at least confirms that they must have had a lot of correspondence on the subject if they had to draft a common response, but like you and your DH I am still

I also contacted lib Dems and had the same response. I replied to them that it showed the values of the party if they let him stand .. And that maybe they'd listen to the electorate. Didn't get a response to the second email.

I can't believe they think that's an apology.

I believe her.

Alcina
FormSquare, I'm interested that you said this: "Rape cases are such an issue that, quite frankly, the Police MUST be absolutely sure that they are doing the right thing."

Because, you know, in this case the police were "absolutely sure" they were "doing the right thing". That's why the police put the case forward for prosecution.

And, you know what? The police believed her. The CPS believed her. The jury believed her. And a big pile of people here believe her.

I believe her.[/quote]

I have actually stated that I was avoiding comment on this case. All I have read is the papers, as have the majority of people on this site (and others) supporting her (this 'I beleive her' rubbish is not neccessary because of the fact the CPS, jury etc did... how about 'we support her'?). The majority of those 'believing' ched have also only access to secondary (at best) if not much more remote sources on the case.

I stated that the police have to be absolutely positive that they are doing the correct thing in response to another poster who bemoaned that the Police appear to be interested in finding out hte truth of the matter, rather than just popping around to the accused, popping a sign around his neck saying 'rapist' and leaving him in the high street.

My post was also considerd to be an 'apology for rapists'; it was not. It was a stand up for those innocent people who have had their lives destroyed by a slur, later PROVEN to be false. People who, incidentaly don't get vast swathes of the t'nterweb put aside for 'i beleive you' campagnes... or even 'sorry, we was wrong' from the Police.

Look around this thread, and others and you can see the emotion that this crime stirs up. I feel one must be careful that such emotions do not conjure up terrible consequences for others or indeed this case.

What terrible consequences?

Thankyou MNHQ for taking this up. Great letter!

I still believe her, so does DP and so do all my work colleagues.

I've had a couple of tweets from Chad &#8207; @FreeChedwyn

@ChAoTic_JCat no, he made love to a girl who can't remember, apparently. She is not alleging rape, is she? Many girls would be honoured

and

@ChAoTic_JCat um, how do you know she was unable to consent, were you there? I think not! She may have relished it, instigated it.

"Many girls would be honoured"

Jesus

'many girls would be honoured'.

Alas, there REALLY is a sub-culture who think like that. Football players, and I suppose a whole raft of other celebs, really are seen as 'the catch' by some girls.

This is possibly where the support for Ched is coming from at the moment. The fact that daft young girls will do all they can to 'snag' a man. I am sure one of the papers ran a thing on WAGs and the girls who follow football for such antics. It included 'wingmen' (in male parlence) who would delay the football players girlfriend in order to allow their mate to make a play (parden the pun) on the targetted bloke.

Likewise a witness reporting a girl phoneing all her mates after having some sort of group thing, and boasting they had been told they were 'good' in bed or similar.

A rotten, murky world from what we can gather.

Wannabe WAGs don't deserve to be raped any more than anybody else.

A fight between the two camps???

The judge setting him free because of the publicity??

I don't think it's me that needs to " Use that little thing between your ears, and behind your eyes."

FormSquare if you also used that little thing between your ears, and behind your eyes you would most likely someday be able to tell what the argument is, be able to focus and not drag discussions all over the place. Just seems like you are trying to score points .

Yes, there are girls who cry "wolf". This discussion is not about a girl who cried wolf. This story is about a girl who a jury "believed" did not cry wolf and we are saying "I believe her" to say we believe she did not make this up. So no point taking us down the road of the "what if", "not fair if she had done", "we are trying to change the justice system to suit her and other girls who eventually cry wolf".
No, we are not. We are saying that if a jury believes she did not cry wolf, then no one should publicly humiliate her and if they do we will not stand by and watch it happen. If you have a problem with us standing up for her then this is the thread for that.

On the other hand, if you want to stand up for those innocent people who have had their lives destroyed by a slur then please start a thread on a judgement which concerns one of them. This is not that case! Stop mixing discussions up! This is a discussion where a jury has found that the crime was actually committed.

WAGS, snagging, wingmen, sub-cultures... there are a lot of sexually oriented moral evils in the world. Lumping them all into one discussion just seems like an attempt to belittle the crime which has been committed.

I think you'll find, as I have indeed mentioned, I have not commented one way or the other on the actual subject of the thread. As mentioned I responded to other sposts (ie the layla post and someone bemoaning how hard it was o get the police to do anything in a rape case).

I have pointed out that the jury and what not believed her. This 'I believe her' nonsense seems to be indicating that she wasn't beleived...

The only people who seem to 'not beleive' are those who support the convicted rapist.

This 'I believe her' nonsense is tied in to the MN We Believe You campaign established to help support survivors of rape. This thread is specifically designed to add support to Ched Evans' victim. It was not designed to discuss the ins and outs of the very small number of men wrongly accused of rape. It seems particularly distasteful to do this on a thread of support for a specific person, where your points are entirely irrelevant. I suggest if you find the whole poor men being accused of rape an interesting subject to discuss then you start your own thread about it.

I do realise I am not the thread police, but I really really object to your attempted derailment of this thread formsquare.

"The only people who seem to 'not beleive' are those who support the convicted rapist."

And aren't they more than enough? They're certainly very vocal - why do you object to MN 'using' the We Believe You campaign in this case?

I'm with Rindercella, not great form to to jump onto a support thread for a rape victim and call the other posts 'nonsense'

Your earliest comment may have been about layla's case and effectively connected then to a case of a wrongly accused young man but your "e-mob comment" was a direct attack on the "i believe her" campaign which you then connected to layla's case and which you in turn connect back to cases of slander. And you are now sticking to your destruction of the campaign on this thread based on those connections. Hence you are making a comment on the actual subject of this thread.

I can follow discussions pretty damn well and I can see when someone is connecting dots based on hypotheses which are not applicable.

Layla's case was mentioned as someone who may also need support. You were the one who attempted to connect the two cases together. Sorry, most of us can actually read. We can still see that one case had a conviction and that is the case we are campaigning for here. Layla's case has a seperate FB campaign going if you want to join in.
You were the one who made the comment on the "perfect justice system" then causing others to comment on how hard it is to actually get the system to work (get the police to do anything).

This 'I believe her' nonsense (definitely no direct comments on the actual subject of the thread eh?) seems to be indicating that she wasn't beleived...
The only people who seem to 'not beleive' are those who support the convicted rapist.

Glad you finally noticed, and the non-believers are shouting it loud and clear (and their intention is clearly to influence the case, if you want to take on a justice changing mob, go talk to them about it).

As much as you don't want it to be a slanging match, which i think was originally the point you wanted to make before heading off in all directions, the young girl must actually feel quite bad about stepping forward and she does need all the support she can get and it should also be loud and clear. My intention, is not to influence the case, but to give her all the personal support she needs. I do not know her personally and therefore have no other way to show my intentions.

Until the "perfect justice system" can make sure that the victim does not have a life sentence of grief, shame and finger pointing, then I am glad that there are people who can continue to give her a reason to live.

"My post was also considerd to be an 'apology for rapists'; it was not. It was a stand up for those innocent people who have had their lives destroyed by a slur, later PROVEN to be false. "

a) How dare you come to a support thread for the victim of a rapist and start going on about innocent people who have had their lives destroyed by a slur - by which I presume you mean men who have been falsely accused of rape - when this thread is actually to support the innocent woman whose life could well be destroyed by a slur - well hopefully it won't, because she'll get the support she needs, to ensure that rapist Ched Evans and his accomplices and supporters, don't destroy her life.

b) The rest of the internet and the world, constantly "stands up" for that tiny little anthill of men who are falsely accused of rape, while ignoring the Mount Everest of women who are actually raped and have their lives, or years of their lives, dstroyed by the experience.

Let's repeat the figures:

1 in 4 women get raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetimes.

90% don't report because they know there is no chance of justice.

Between 2 and 6% of rape allegations are false. That means between 92 and 98% are true.

Only 6% of rape reports end in a guilty verdict. Most rapists walk free. Most don't even get reported.

The rest of the world, focuses on that tiny number - between 2 and 6% of REPORTED rapes and in doing so, ensures that most rape victims don't report and that when they do, most don't get justice.

On this thread, we are focusing on the need to support this rape victim and all rape victims. But you feel you have to come here with the usual myths.

That is why your posts are rape apologia and have no place on this thread.

If you had any decency at all, you would not be here. Say what you have to say in a more appropriate venue.

"This 'I believe her' nonsense seems to be indicating that she wasn't beleived...

The only people who seem to 'not beleive' are those who support the convicted rapist."

Dear christ, do you actually read what you write? So is she being believed or not (according to you)?

This thread has become rather emotive to say the least and lacking balance in many ways.

Lacking balance was fine as it started out as a I believe you so that the victim could feel encouraged.

Saying I believe without having sat through or perhaps even seen the reporting of evidence is being supportive which is a good enough nature to have but it is only being empathetic.

I hope if you all actually were called to jury service you would sit and listen to all the evidence and guidance given from the judge rather than sit solely with an I believe state. I

There is still the prospect of an appeal in this case so it is by no means done and dusted so whilst some may celebrate the victory for it is not yet over.

Some posts on here have posted cuttings of evidence that support the prosecution case no doubt to support their I believe, belief so i only post the following to add a little bit of balance.

Some newspapers did report that there was no evidence of alcohol during testing in the victims system when she was tested after her allegation but there was evidence of cannabis and cocaine use. She also was reported as saying she usually drinks a lot more than on that night without being drunk. Now I and you can only ever take this at the word of reporters and from the agenda their newspapers cover as unfortunately full transcripts of court proceedings in the UK are not published therefore not allowing the public to read and weigh the evidence as portrayed to the jury.

We should perhaps all avoid taking sides before the final outcome of a trial is complete and that includes the appeal.

Rape cases like this are sensational but the unfortunate reality is far more rapes happen to woman by their spouses/boyfriends, people who are already close and well known to them and these cases are far more difficult to convict and for woman to guard against.

This thread isn't supposed to be "balanced". It is supposed to be emotive support for the victim. She was raped, her rapist was convicted, which is incredibly rare and she is being villified. There is nothing wrong with being emotive about that.

As Basil said, if you and FormSquare, NovackNGood, have a problem with the conviction, take it elsewhere.

Thanks Puffin for the quote from the old thread.

Have MNHQ heard anything back from the PFA yet?

Novack - on what grounds could Ched Evans appeal?

The LibDems appear to feel they are off the hook for their appalling response to Liam Elvish's comments, because he failed so badly and achieved so very few votes in the election.
I still think they should be made to respond properly, and prove they take a firm stance on the issue, but it seems to be par for the course - bunch of wishy washy apologists!

As for a retrial for Ched Evans - on what grounds?
I'm fairly certain that "Sheffield United aren't playing very well, so could we please have him back" won't be enough.

He deserves the same rights as every other convicted rapist, of course, and I sincerely hope due process is firmly adhered to, although it won't make any difference to the opinons of those blinded by footballer worship.

We should perhaps all avoid taking sides before the final outcome of a trial is complete and that includes the appeal.

The people who abused and continue to abuse her on social media should have thought of that first.
This thread isn't for balance. it is reactionary. it is for support. Naming and shaming her was the breaking point and that should NEVER have happened. The balance was upset right there.

I will not standby and watch a convicted rapist's victim be socially punished just because he is appealing the judgement.

I hope if you all actually were called to jury service you would sit and listen to all the evidence and guidance given from the judge rather than sit solely with an I believe state.

I know I would but would you? Would football fans go in without their rape myth preconceptions and wannabe wag bias? It is great to fight for an ideal but we currently do not live in a utopia.

"I hope if you all actually were called to jury service you would sit and listen to all the evidence and guidance given from the judge rather than sit solely with an I believe state."

Why are you patronising everyone who supports the woman Ched Evans raped?

Did you not see what I posted?

Over 90% of men accused of rape, walk free even though most of them did it.

The majority of rapists are never even accused, let alone convicted.

You don't need to worry about intelligent women on Mumsnet being able to use critical thinking and giving men a fair hearing.

You need to worry about the majority of jurors who bend over backwards to let rapists walk free. And you need to worry about the knuckle draggers who don't believe rape victims even when they do manage to get a conviction.

You also need to respect that this is a support thread for a rape victim and for rape victims in general and restrain yourself from talking down to women who are supporting a rape victim by implying that we would be irresponsible jurors because we don't subscribe to the usual rape myths. And you need to respect that this is a support thread.

Thank you for doing the letter MNHQ

Of course they condone rape, just like they are pro porn, pro prostitution and pro lap dancing. The lib dems hate women even more than the Tories.

euh??? porn, prostitution and lap dancing are potentially things which a woman (or man) can choose to do. Rape is definitely something which is never the victim's choice.

Pretty far fetched to call them women haters by lumping all those together. And dragging that into a support thread is a bit

Doing my best to get the message back into the thread: I believe her.

That is the message. Not that we hate the libdems or any other party... In the spirit of that message, we are trying to get people to change or at least think. Not go for political propaganda.

If you haven't already 'liked' the Facebook page would you PLEASE do so here. Really need to keep momentum up on this. Thank you

Was any action been taken against Sky News for naming the victim?

I don't think the police are looking in to this any further. They showed a tweet with the victim's name on it rather than naming her in, say, a news bulletin. Someone dropped a bollock (to use on of DH's favourite phrases) but I doubt any further action will be taken.

I had a reply saying he didn't speak for the party and he apologised. but I have no idea to who and where he apologised!

it said on the news that the name could be read if somebody was a very fast reader so it must have been on there somewhere! shocking. This just show the medias view of women.

Just read there have been more arrests for twitter naming, inc same person being arrested twice, and police anticipate yet more arrests. Can these people. It get into their heads they can't do this? Really hope they are severely punished. Shows total contempt both of the victim of course but for the law and society as a whole.

People think that 'they have free speech' and forget yes you do, and we have contempt of court, libel laws and plenty of other legislation to protect us from their hate speech too.

As stupid as rioters last summer.