We Believe You - continued

(419 Posts)
Frontpaw Tue 01-May-12 16:58:14

The old thread was full. It was the first of a few I think.

Berts Tue 01-May-12 17:04:22

I believe her.

Seeing what some awful people have put on FB/Twitter is sickening and can make you feel as though we live in a rape culture, but let's take heart:

a) The vast majority of Sheffield fans did not support the 'campaign' for a minutes silence in support of twatface Ched;
b) Clayton Macdonald was almost unanimously booed when he dared show his face at his last match;
c) All the football sites' comments pages I've seen have almost unanimously condemned Evans and expressed support and sympathy for the victim.

So the FA is massively out of touch with real football supporters in its refusal to publicly condemn Evans.

Some other interesting points to chew on:

- The sizeable chunk of female Ched supporters (as well as the sizeable chunk of men supporting the victim) demonstrates clearly that this is not a 'Women's Issue' - it's an issue for all decent people.
- An easy way to refute 'Ched supporters' is this: if a man is too drunk to speak or move, is it okay for Ched Evans to have sex with him?

Frontpaw Tue 01-May-12 17:08:09

I do hope his cellmate is not considering getting him blotto to try out this theory. They can get their hands on drink and drugs in porison, can't they?

carernotasaint Tue 01-May-12 17:10:06

I still believe her and i always will.

EggyMcEggMcSandwich Tue 01-May-12 17:10:42

I believe her

Berts Tue 01-May-12 17:12:18

Also, if anyone would like to contact Nick Clegg/the LibDems re Liam Elvish's comments, there's an online contact form here.

Frontpaw Tue 01-May-12 17:14:35

Sadly there are people who will always trust a convicted criminal.

How many times have we seen famous people get away with a crime or rebuild a career after conviction (or having a big questuion mark against them). People will always forgive the rich and famous. Who would put their necks out for this piece of filth is he was plain old Joe Blow? How many loons write to/marry criminals in jail/on death row? There is definately something not quite right there.

Innocent until proven guilty (is that it?). Therefore 'guilty when judged guilty'.

MrsAlexanderSkarsgard Tue 01-May-12 17:31:45

The Telegraph

Hopefully someone close to her will show her this and point her in our direction.

I believe her x

ZZZenAgain Tue 01-May-12 17:33:25

we have a few continuation threads going, can we blend them and have the one thread linked to discussions of the day, so people know where to find the new thread?

Rindercella Tue 01-May-12 17:37:55

Tried to post this on the old thread, but it was full up. This was in response to the post by AJsDaddy:

AJsDaddy fantastic post <and I think I can guess which premership team you support! grin>

I have a feeling the vast majority of football fans (Sheffield Utd fans included) think the same as you. Unfortunately the very vocal minority are just vile in their beliefs and also in their obscene victimisation of a young woman who has already been through far too much in her life.

I hope the FA and PFA actually listen to views such as yours so that they can heed public feeling and take appropriate and necessary steps to strip Evans of his recent award and also to give him a lifelong ban from the game. They need to clearly demonstrate that they will not tolerate such behaviour from any of their players.

ZZZenAgain Tue 01-May-12 17:38:46

here
another continuation thread.

OracleInaCoracle Tue 01-May-12 17:38:59

want to post on this too, I believe her.

SuePurblyingoodVOICE Tue 01-May-12 17:41:42

I've emailed the Lib Dems, I wonder if I get a reply?

lisaro Tue 01-May-12 17:46:35

She was believed in Court. He was convicted. It's so hard to get a conviction no matter how much you're believed. I think that says a lot.
And Berts is right - it's not a male or female issue - it's about common decency or, for some poor deluded souls, lack of).

Hippihipster Tue 01-May-12 17:56:44

I believe you

WyrdMother Tue 01-May-12 18:34:53

I believe you.

MyDogShitsShoes Tue 01-May-12 19:10:29

Agreed, great (if long!) post by ajsdaddy. Seemed very heartfelt to me.

The overriding feeling I got was sadness though. Pure and simple sadness at what football culture has become.

I'm getting more and more frustrated trying to make the idiots see reason. Yes, I know it's probably impossible but I won't stop trying. To give up is to accept it and I can't do that.

This is my most recent tweet. Any better suggestions gratefully received, I only joined yesterday so not well practised at being so succinct yet!

@MyDogShitsShoes. So many people spectacularly missing the point. Too drunk to say no = too drunk to say yes! #IBelieveHer

SchnitzelVonKrumm Tue 01-May-12 19:18:34

I believe her, and so a jury of her peers.

geekette Tue 01-May-12 19:21:06

To AJsDaddy, It must be really hard to be a welsh, a male and a football fan at the moment. I salute you.

Thanks to those who continued the threads.

I actually joined FB just for this cause. I hope she is getting the support she needs in RL.

As for the libdems, well, they showed their true colours in government. That nut is just digging the grave deeper.

I hope football can get back to being a sport of decency and dignity. I thought it was that way when I was a kid. I glorified it... almost... or was i just deluded?

Fluffymule Tue 01-May-12 19:21:08

I believe her.

dottyspotty2 Tue 01-May-12 19:24:14

I believe her, knowing what it is like to be questioned by the police in these sort of cases it is highly unlikely that anyone in their right mind would be less than trueful it is so humiliating to go through.

fivegomadindorset Tue 01-May-12 19:24:51

I believe her

luzluz Tue 01-May-12 20:07:21

I believe her and so did a jury.

ApocalypseThen Tue 01-May-12 20:08:54

I believe her.

And I'm furious. I'm just incandescent with a rage I haven't felt for a long time with all the stupid rape apologists and women haters whose remarks I'm reading. I'm saying to them - put your photos on the internet so all women can avoid ever having a drink with you since you seem to think that excuses rape.

As to the women rape apologists, I feel really sorry for them. When did we feminists fail them so badly that they think this is OK? That they have so little concept of their rights, freedoms, their bodily integrity? Feminists, we've dropped the ball badly on this one. We've cowered behind the pressure to be all cool and not speak out LOUD about the objectification and pornification of women, we've allowed ourselves to accept the proposition that it's OK to buy sexual access to women if you have the money and that rape is an hilarious topic for jokes. And now people aren't ashamed to come out and blame the victim when rape has serious consequences.

We've got to get serious on this one and resist the pressure going on to minimise these things. We see where it's going in the plight of this young woman who is enduring the most disgusting misogynistic attacks and all kinds of questioning of her behaviour when she did nothing illegal.

This has to change. Our collective feet have to go down to put an end to this. I - for one - have had enough. And I suspect all the women and men here have too.

SeaHouses Tue 01-May-12 20:16:26

I believe her.

frownyface Tue 01-May-12 20:19:21

I believe her

CailinDana Tue 01-May-12 20:29:45

I believe her.

Gigondas Tue 01-May-12 20:30:20

I believe her

MyCatIsAStupidBastard Tue 01-May-12 20:31:38

Just tweeted

I believe her

I believe her

EverybodysSleepyEyed Tue 01-May-12 20:42:04

I believe her

Narrowboat Tue 01-May-12 20:42:29

I believe you

KisMittz Tue 01-May-12 20:42:31

I had talked to my 14 yr old DS about the case and some aspects of it, and his response was that the man was 'thick because anyone should be able to go out and get a bit drunk and not have to worry about getting raped.'
Proud that at 14 he has far more integrity than Ched Evans..

My DS believes her x

MarathonMama Tue 01-May-12 20:42:56

I believe her

MyDogShitsShoes Tue 01-May-12 20:50:17

Bloody fantastic post apocalypse. I don't remember ever getting this worked up about a "celeb headline".

I'm spewing molten rage all over the shop but i'm struggling to put it into words. I'm finding it really difficult to focus through the anger.

I will NOT quieten down though. I know people are saying this culture will never change but that doesn't mean we stop fighting.

Yes we need to get the message out there to young women not to drink so excessively that they put themselves at risk of harm and to have more respect for themselves than to want to sleep with a "celeb". That's a given.

But I will NOT accept that a vulnerable girl is "fair game" because she made the mistake of getting too drunk to make a sensible decision.

I believe her.

travellingwilbury Tue 01-May-12 20:52:07

Another voice to add to the list

I believe her .

Yes should not be the automatic answer in your head when shagging someone who is so pissed they can't say no .

Idiot and a rapist Ched .

MissVforVendetta Tue 01-May-12 20:58:43

I believe her

I believe her. And I thank her and admire her courage in prosecuting. To do that and then go through this shit. She's great. You're great. Chin up.

I wanted to say something about the comments on FB and from that Lib Dem about who would say no, or she should have been grateful. It seems to me that there is a problem about sex and sexuality for some people. Sex should be about mutual enjoyment and connection, not having sex because the person is famous or 'so' gorgeous that you are 'lucky' to have the chance. Is this partly the problem with these rapists? They assume consent because they can't believe that a woman wouldn't want to be penetrated by a famous person. Which is sick and wrong.
Sorry, I've ranted a bit, but I was trying to unpick why another woman would support a convicted rapist by saying his victim should be grateful and this is the best I've come up with.

ZZZenAgain Tue 01-May-12 21:04:21

a drunken young woman is still a living being, she has not relinquished her humanity when she passed from sobriety to drunkeness. She is more than an object. Even if she has passed out and feels nothing to treat her like an object there for your gratification and to do this whilst she is being observed and filmed by others is an ugly thing to do.

I really cannot understand women who don't see this. I really really don't understand his girlfriend. Does any woman believe that there are times when she ceases being a full person and becomes just an empty shell, a body lying there to be used for a bit of a lark, a bit of grunting and thrusting?Is there any woman at all who would say under those circumstances, if I had been too drunk to say anything, yes it would have been alright with me?

dementedma Tue 01-May-12 21:04:30

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RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 01-May-12 21:06:59

ZZZenAgain

we have a few continuation threads going, can we blend them and have the one thread linked to discussions of the day, so people know where to find the new thread?

Hi there,

Unfortunately, we can't blend threads but we have now made this one the discussion of the day.

Best wishes
MNHQ

VolkswagenBeetle Tue 01-May-12 21:08:49

I believe her.

I believe her

StrandedBear Tue 01-May-12 21:13:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Just want to add my voice: I believe her.

I hope someone shows her these threads so she can see that men and women alike support her.

TheMistsOfAvalon Tue 01-May-12 21:16:31

I believe her. Cannot believe what she's been subjected to! It's disgusting. Football has to change it's misogynist laddish culture. I don't think there is another sport where 'sportsmen' and their players are allowed so much license to behave badly whilst raking in hefty salaries. Never win anything important any bloody how.

dollymixtures Tue 01-May-12 21:17:51

Dementedma, there isn't alot to understand. A jury of his peers who have heard and seen all the evidence found Ched Evans guilty of rape. The girl in this case WAS raped, the police believed it, a jury believed it and we all believe it.

A woman is allowed to get falling down drunk she is allowed to get into a cab with a strange man, it does not follow that that strange man or his friends are allowed to put their dicks in her without her say so.

tigerdriverII Tue 01-May-12 21:19:25

I believe her

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ellisbell Tue 01-May-12 21:20:45

I'm glad there is a continuation thread - how can we get mumsnet to link to this rather than the full one?

It's time that clubs discipline anyone present when something like this happened. No person who stands by and does nothing to stop this is innocent, they all bring their club into disrepute.

dollymixtures Tue 01-May-12 21:22:09

And I should add that if she was that drunk no decent man would have sex with her even if she begged them. It used to be called 'taking advantage' and it's a shameful way to behave.

ApocalypseThen Tue 01-May-12 21:22:27

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LazySleepy Tue 01-May-12 21:23:01

I believe you

MyAuntFanny Tue 01-May-12 21:23:53

I believe her.

I believe her.

dementedma Tue 01-May-12 21:26:17

ok *dollymixtures". I didn't imply it WAS allowed, I don't think.hmm
I was just wondering how one encounter was rape and one wasn't, assuming they happened within minutes of each other with someone who was incapable of giving consent or rejection.
If the guy is guilty of rape then hell mend him. Was just looking for clarification, that's all

fivegomadindorset Tue 01-May-12 21:26:43

Girl gets pissed, goes to kebab shop and falls over, then she gets put in taxi with footballers who then take her back to hotel. Nowhere in any nes reports does it say that she picked up strangers in a bar.

I believe you

ReneandGeorgetteMagritte Tue 01-May-12 21:28:37

I believe her

minsmum Tue 01-May-12 21:32:25

I believe her

QuickLookBusy Tue 01-May-12 21:34:08

dementadma Both men with in the bedroom were charged with rape, but for some reason only one was found guilty.

dementedma Tue 01-May-12 21:34:15

five but that's what I mean. Why weren't they BOTH convicted of rape?

dollymixtures Tue 01-May-12 21:37:03

Sorry Dementedma, I didn't read your post properly blush just read/ heard too many people questioning whether/ how this was rape and have got a bit angry.

From what I understand the other guy was acquitted because she got into the taxi with him and therefore obviously agreed to sex too hmm. I really hope there was more to it than that.

jellylegs Tue 01-May-12 21:40:40

I believe her.

Modan Tue 01-May-12 21:40:47

Dememntedma, she didnt pick him up in a bar, from what I have read he literally picked her up in the street while she was falling over drunk, called Ched Evans and said "ive got one" or words to that effect, and took her to the hotel room.

I presume he was not found guilty as she went with him therefore he argued consensual sex. I know my opinions on that one.

dementedma Tue 01-May-12 21:42:21

ok, thanks. just couldn't get my head round how one got off and one got charged!

EverybodysSleepyEyed Tue 01-May-12 21:43:09

I think we are on shaky ground to say that he must be guilty because a jury of his peers found him so, but the other guy 'got off' - either we respect the jury system or we don't - especially as it was the same people!

I find it odd too but I assumed there was reasonable doubt in his case so the jury weren't able to conclusively decide he was guilty.

I hope she is ok - those bastards who put her name on twitter deserve a jail sentence

I believe her

dottyspotty2 Tue 01-May-12 21:43:59

whole point about consent is you can withdraw consent at any moment your body you decide not a man

happypotter Tue 01-May-12 21:44:13

I believe her.

dottyspotty2 Tue 01-May-12 21:45:40

not saying she ever gave her consent though poor girl having gone through that then her name publised bloody disgusting.

QuickLookBusy Tue 01-May-12 21:46:15

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QuickLookBusy Tue 01-May-12 21:48:29

Sorry I shouldn't have posted the above.

This thread is not about discussing the case, it is about showing we believe this woman.

DoUntoOtters Tue 01-May-12 21:48:47

I believe her.

BillyGoat Tue 01-May-12 21:49:04

I believe her.

ReactionaryFish Tue 01-May-12 21:52:50

The jury believed her, which is the end of the matter. He's in prison and he's having a really horrible time. Suck it up, rapist-supporting assholes.
My theory is this; football is, to certain sections of our society, the new aristocracy. They are at the top of the hierarchy, and as such entitled to total deference; challenging them or holding them to account threatens the natural order of things.
people have always liked hierarchies, of course; but you've got to feel sorry for people who feel the need to look up to pond life like Evans. at least the lord in his manor looked like someone worth admiring.

I believe her.

Anomaly Tue 01-May-12 21:55:13

I believe her.

feralgirl Tue 01-May-12 22:00:27

I believe her.

And MN makes me well up when it is this fantastic.

follygirl Tue 01-May-12 22:01:41

I believe her

NovackNGood Tue 01-May-12 22:04:44

I expect the appeal will be very interesting to watch.

Why are people so stupid that they think they can show contempt to court and get away with it by naming people with anonymity and injunctions etc. on twitter.

mamatomoo Tue 01-May-12 22:04:46

I believe her.

NormaStanleyFletcher Tue 01-May-12 22:05:04

I believe her

wearytraveller Tue 01-May-12 22:05:37

I believe her.

toomuchmonthatendofthemoney Tue 01-May-12 22:12:29

I believe her/you, I hope she/ you finds courage and strength to keep going thru all this x

LittleEsmeWeatherwax Tue 01-May-12 22:13:58

I believe her.

DH believes her.

I hope she reads these threads. If you are, don't ever forget my lovely, that decent people BELIEVE YOU. Don't lose sight of that.

ZZZenAgain Tue 01-May-12 22:14:18

why haven't the blogspots/other websites naming her been taken down? Some of the ones I have just seen have been running for several days. Takes one google to locate a blogspot with photo and name of the blogger on it for instance.

I believe her, of course I do!

I have also emailed the LibDems and commented on their FB page about Liam Elvish's disgraceful comments.

StrandedBear Tue 01-May-12 22:16:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

johnnycomelurky Tue 01-May-12 22:17:45

I believe her.

I am also so full of rage over how she has been treated, I keep raging about it to anyone who will listen. I wish the woman all the best and think that she has been very brave. She has my respect.

Catmint Tue 01-May-12 22:19:01

I believe her.

Idlegirl83 Tue 01-May-12 22:24:08

I believe her.

I believe her.

As an older member of MN, am absolutely furious about the reactions to, and the implications of this case. Some of us marched and demonstrated and fought tooth and nail 30+ years ago for women to get their voices HEARD in rape cases, and to overturn the legal and social culture which tolerated and accepted rape.

One of my worst nightmares would be to have a DD who supported the guilty party in this case. What a fucking tragic, delusional representative of womankind that poor brainwashed kid is. Porn-culture personified.

dollymixtures Tue 01-May-12 22:24:38

For those of you feeling angry but impotent about this can I second the suggestion from the earlier thread to make a donation to Rape Crisis? Perhaps if that LD idiot wanted to make his 'apology' a bit more genuine he could make a goodly donation too.

boogiewoogie Tue 01-May-12 22:29:43

I believe her.

AnonyMaw Tue 01-May-12 22:32:03

I believe her, and thankfully the police/CPS and jury also believe her. I'm astounded that those rape apologist misogynists even exist. Sheesh...

angry

gettingagrip Tue 01-May-12 22:36:35

have tweeted and emailed. What a disgusting excuse for a human being is that Elvish 'person'

besmirchedandbewildered Tue 01-May-12 22:59:18

StrandedBear I totally agree with you, she's in for one shocking epiphany.

geekette Tue 01-May-12 23:05:47

As for those asking about how one (mcDondald, is that it?) was found not guilty and the other(Ched) was convicted, I think I understand the jury's point of view:

She got into the taxi with the first guy. she could still (kind of) walk and talk and may have consented to sex. Questionable but plausible. In any case, she was conscious (kind of).

The video, to my knowledge, was an attempt at filming the scene which didn't quite work.

The Ched guy appears on scene to have sex with the now totally legless girl. The jury, in my opinion, are right to think there was no way she was in any state to give consent to anyone at this point. She doesn't know what happened but there must have been evidence of his involvement. He also confirmed that he slept with her.

Basically, of the two that slept with her that night, only one actually saw her (barely) conscious at any point during the night. he got off, barely if you ask me. The other should have walked away if the girl was only garbling by the time he wanted his "share"...

This is what I have gleamed from the discussions. The jury know better they saw the full evidence.

Pff... I just can't believe we still live in this kind of world....

dollymixtures Tue 01-May-12 23:08:49

Let's not turn on his girlfriend. I haven't read much about the support for Ched Evans if I'm honest (random comments from colleagues have been bad enough) but given the predatory way he behaved I wondered if actually his girlfriend is all too aware of what he's like. I doubt it's the first time he's behaved like this.

musicposy Tue 01-May-12 23:16:47

I believe her.

I'm appalled at some of the attitudes around. We're meant to be a civilized society. Appalling that this sort of thing goes on at all, let alone that people think it's OK.

dollymixtures Tue 01-May-12 23:17:31

Thanks Geekette. The only ref I've seen to the acquittal of the other chap more or less said he was acquitted because she got in the taxi with him and he's a footballer and what did she expect was going to happen hmm. I have assumed that there was a bit more than this behind the jury's decision <clings on to faith in humanity by fingertips>

tinymouse Tue 01-May-12 23:39:22

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lisaro Tue 01-May-12 23:52:25

Actually I don't feel sorry for the girlfriend one iota. Even if her had 'just cheated' on her it would be wrong. but he didn't, he RAPED someone. \A jury believe it, what's to stand by?

DeathByChocolate01 Wed 02-May-12 00:32:59

I believe her.

I believe her.

LtEveDallas Wed 02-May-12 06:10:18

I must admit I too am shocked that the girlfriend is standing by him, and apparently so is the girlfriends father. I suppose it's a 'head in the sand' reaction - they don't want to think that someone they love is capable of something so awful sad. I even feel some pity for the sister - although all the 'Chedwyn is very down, Ched is still in shock, Ched can't believe this has happened to him' posts from her make me want to shout at her asking how she thinks his victim feels angry

I have no sympathy what so ever for the Rapist and his scummy friends who thought a drunken girl was fair game. This is like a bloody remake of Jodie Foster's The Accused. But instead of Rednecks jeering the rapists on we have Footballers trying to film it. What the hell goes on in their tiny minds?

I still believe her, and always will.

NovackNGood Wed 02-May-12 06:17:45

And so the backlash begins with the Daily Fail and it's misogynistic ways reporting......Bride 'raped by husband on wedding night after she got so drunk she didn't want sex'

How they like a good stir to keep the population at each others throats.

Mummyinthedark Wed 02-May-12 06:32:25

I believe her

upsydaisysexstylist Wed 02-May-12 07:54:57

I believe her

imogengladheart Wed 02-May-12 07:56:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

imogengladheart Wed 02-May-12 08:01:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NovackNGood Wed 02-May-12 08:07:30

Ken Clarke said nothing of the kind last year. What he said had a lot of merit and if anything this case shows that what he said was quite pertinent. two accused one acquittal one conviction.

imogengladheart Wed 02-May-12 08:10:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ApocalypseThen Wed 02-May-12 08:22:31

'most girls would want to sleep with (Evans) anyway'.

I doubt that's true anymore. Any woman with a twitter of wit or an ounce of self respect would stay far, far away from this pathetic excuse for a man and his demented family. Personally, I'm not surprised they're supporting him - he didn't lick his attitude towards women off the ground.

BiscuitNibbler Wed 02-May-12 08:37:39

I believe her.

stillfrazzled Wed 02-May-12 08:52:38

I believe her.

Jacquetta Wed 02-May-12 09:06:52

I believe her.

And I believe that we need to seriously address the misogynistic culture that we live in which judges women not men, when men rape women.
Too many people condone sexist behaviour, laddish behaviour, and glorify footballers and football. If we have a culture where a group of young men are adulated and paid ridiculous amounts of money and see women as disposable objects, we are creating a rape culture. In a similar way, we have gang cultures, in which young men are given undeserved respect, glorified, who see women as disposable objects, in which gang rape is common place. People need to see the connections here. It is men's behaviour that should be on trial, not rape victims.

Casserole Wed 02-May-12 09:08:58

I believe her and i've emailed the LibDems about Elvish's disgusting comments

Feel free to do the same here

I know these links were posted earlier but this thread is growing quickly.

Kushti Wed 02-May-12 09:12:58

Are people saying that they believe she doesn't remember? I've tried to find details of the case and can only find snippets of the trial in which she says she doesn't know what happened and doesn't remember. Was the footballer saying that she did remember and went willingly?

I'm surprised no one has brought up the binge drinking culture which I feel has an awful lot to do with situations like this where men openly take advantage of a woman's impaired judgement or the fact they are so drunk they don't know what's going on. Women are putting themselves in incredibly vulnerable situations and the government is not doing enough to address it.

I'm 31 now and I guess was one of the first wave of adolescents who openly binge drank, my late teens early twenties are a blur of getting drunk in clubs and pubs and on occasion waking up next to men not knowing what had happened.

I hate the way drinking until you pass out is 'normalised' in this country and I am terrified that my children are going to do the same thing.

LIttleMcF Wed 02-May-12 09:16:18

I believe her. I hope she knows how much support she has.

TheGreatScootini Wed 02-May-12 09:24:58

I see that 9 further arrests have been made re the Twitter abuse this morning.At least it seems to be being taken seriously by the Police.A good article in this weeks Grazia too.

i believe you, and think your very brave, keep strong xx

D0oinMeCleanin Wed 02-May-12 09:34:36

Kushti women should be able to get so drunk they can barely walk let alone fully register where they are or what is happening to them. They should be able to do so without being raped. And without being blamed for being raped/vunerable/drunk.

I'm not saying it's sensible to do so, but they should be able to do so without risk from rape and victim blaming.

If a drunken man is mugged and beaten how many of his friends do you think would tell him "Well, if you hadn't been so drunk/been flashing your wallet about/looking like you wanted it...." etc? Victim blaming is something that only happens with crime of rape. Being drunk whilst having a crime commited against you is not limited to rape.

shoesies Wed 02-May-12 09:36:11

I believe her

Kushti Wed 02-May-12 09:45:38

D0oinMeCleanin - I absolutely agree but I think anyone getting so drunk they don't know what is happening is putting themselves in a very vulnerable situation, especially women.

I am absolutely not saying that it is the victims fault at all just that I wish there wasn't such a culture in this country of young people getting so drunk that awful things happen to them.

I lost my virginity at 14 to a much older man who gave me alcohol and ecstasy, I didn't know what was going on, so yes I hope this ruling will mean men think twice about raping women who are too drunk to know what is going on.

ApocalypseThen Wed 02-May-12 09:49:16

Totally agree. I'm sick and tired of people concealing their wish to control women in this way and limit our rights in this manner.

Stupid morality police mentality punishing women for stepping out of line. If women get drunk they can be punished by rape. Women are in a constant state of consent to sex unless they protest loudly enough. Rape only happens if it's a stranger with an knife in an alleyway who leaves you for dead after you almost allowed yourself to be killed to protect your precious chastity. If you are in the same room as a man, or if you're drunk, well, what do you expect?

Sick of it all. SICK OF IT ALL. THE ONLY COMMON DENOMINATOR BETWEEN ALL WOMEN WHO ARE RAPED IS THAT THEY ARE IN THE PRESENCE OF A RAPIST.

AND IT'S NOT DOWN TO SOME HALF WITTED LOW LIFE TO PUNISH WOMEN WHO DRINK TOO MUCH WITH RAPE.

Why the hell do women go along with this?

imogengladheart Wed 02-May-12 09:52:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

stillfrazzled Wed 02-May-12 10:03:32

Have emailed the lib dems asking for action to indicate they don't welcome rape apologists. We shall see.

EllenParsons Wed 02-May-12 10:16:08

I believe her and I have just emailed the lib dems about Liam Elvish too. Thanks to the poster who put the link up.

geekette Wed 02-May-12 10:19:05

Give kushti a chance. I think she is trying to combat two societal evils at once.

Kushti the subject of rape is a very sensitive one and brings out people's defences. The history of people "punishing" women for being at a place, at a time, in a state of mind that suited the perpetrator and the woman getting blamed for it by society, leaves nerves raw.

There is an issue with society trying to make us believe that by default women want sexualised objects in them until she says the contrary and sometimes despite her saying the contrary.

There is an issue with binge drinking in the UK.

But trying to use a rape case to show the issue of binge drinking is highlighting that the victim was in a suitable position for the perpetrator to take advantage. That is the nonsense society has been trying to get us to swallow for hundreds of years. Victims are always in a suitable position for the perpetrator to take advantage (or at least have a shot at it).

When all the teens end up in hospital with liver cirrhosis, then you have a case for binge drinking. This one isn't one of them.

And I definitely do not want this girl growing up being afraid of the dark and of men. There are good people out there, binge drinking or not!

DuchesstheCat Wed 02-May-12 10:27:59

I believe her.

Boyonce Wed 02-May-12 10:30:26

I believe her.

frownieface Wed 02-May-12 10:32:22

I believe her.

I am wondering how many of these people who are supporting a convicted rapist have daughters or sisters? Would they support a rapist who was convicted of raping their daughter or sister.

MyDogShitsShoes Wed 02-May-12 10:46:11

I understand exactly where you're coming from kushti I don't think anyone on here thinks drinking yourself into unconsciousness is a good thing at all.

But it doesn't negate the crime. Agree completely with those comparing it to mugging. Yes people would say how silly it was to walk down a dark alley at night and make conversation with a stranger. but no one would say you wanted him to mug you.

The point is you shouldn't be vulnerable to rape if you're drunk. You should be able to drink far too much, be unable to stand, lose all your sensibilities and not expect to be "fair game".

Same as you should be able to walk down a dark alley at night without bring mugged.

Look at all the campaigning going on at the moment about knife crime. No one is saying that if you live in a "rough" area that you should expect to be stabbed. Everyone is, quite rightly, saying you should be able to live your life without the fear of bring stabbed. Imagine the uproar if anyone started saying it was an "acceptable risk".

This morning's tweet (i'm still getting used to it so any pointers more than welcome!)
@MyDogShitsShoes nope not shutting up about this. Drinking to excess = naive and vulnerable NOT "up for it". #IBelieveHer

imogengladheart Wed 02-May-12 10:56:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

madnortherner Wed 02-May-12 10:59:18

I believe you.

Atreegrowsinbrooklyn Wed 02-May-12 11:00:31

My response to those women who have libelled and slandered that brave girl-

"There's a special place in Hell for women who do not support other women"

-- Madeleine Allbright --

I have bombarded the LibDems with protest emails too, regarding MrEvil-ish. I urge everybody to do the same.

ApocalypseThen Wed 02-May-12 11:06:09

Agree completely with those comparing it to mugging.

I don't. This is a serious crime against the person, not against property. People don't tend to get mugged in their own homes by people they know, yet that's where the majority of rapes happen. People can secure their possessions or leave stuff they don't want taken from them if they get mugged at home, but we can't detach our vaginas and leave them at home, or secure them in any other way.

madnortherner Wed 02-May-12 11:08:32

I also want to add my support on Twitter. How many people have now added their support here? On Twitter people are saying 180 people on Mumsnet beileve you, but there has to be far more than that now?

MNHQ - do you have a nifty tech way of keeping track of numbers?

I will also be using the link I noticed above to write to the LibDems.

EauRouge Wed 02-May-12 11:12:39

I've contacted the Lib Dems too. I can't believe Liam Elvish's comments, what a bastard.

D0oinMeCleanin Wed 02-May-12 11:14:00

1468 people 'like' the 'We Believe You' page on FB. Many people who have posted on here say they do not have FB so it's more than 1468 people who support her.

SavannaandAddisonmommy Wed 02-May-12 11:14:04

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

LimburgseVlaai Wed 02-May-12 11:14:05

Have emailed the LibDems about Liam Elvish with the suggestion that he should have his membership cancelled. Elvish should join the BNP - they have a similar attitude to rape.

messyisthenewtidy Wed 02-May-12 11:15:30

To add to Apocalypse's post, mugging also doesn't entail worrying visits to the clinic, enduring tests, internal exams and general humiliation, followed by weeks of waiting to see if you have contracted an STD.

I believe her, and I hope she realizes how brave she is.

LadySybilDeChocolate Wed 02-May-12 11:17:01

If you google, there's a lot of articles regarding footballers (allegedly) sexually assaulting young women, another one within the last week. It's disgraceful behaviour from men who are supposed to be role models for children. Footballers are people who (most of) our children admire and respect.
The UK seems to have developed a very sexualised attitude which is very wrong. Women are not seen as equals, but as a toy to be discarded once the 'fun' is over. When I walk down my high street I can see images if half naked women, I see posters advertising free lap-dances and it's disgusting. How are parents going to raise responsible and respectful men if their children see images like this?

MyDogShitsShoes Wed 02-May-12 11:20:31

I don't mean the severity of the crime at all.

Pick any crime. It's about trying to find a way to explain to these people why it's NEVER acceptable to say a victim was asking for a crime to be commited to/on them.

People should be able to leave their houses unlocked without someone taking their things, they should be able to walk down a dark alley, they should be able to get into a taxi with a stranger.

No one should ever "expect" to be a victim of crime. Full stop.

I think i'm just finding it very difficult to put into words because i don't understand why anyone needs it explained to them. Why anyone would defend a rapist is just so mindboggling I don't know where to start.

LadySybilDeChocolate Wed 02-May-12 11:20:56

Savannah, it's the responsibility of the man to ensure that the woman consents also. In cases where the man has pretended that he's the woman's husband in order to have sex with her, the man has been found guilty of rape even though the woman consented. If a woman is unable to consent then it's rape. What would it be if the woman was unconscious and he had sex with her? It would be rape.

madnortherner Wed 02-May-12 11:22:40

I have now written to the LibDems about Liam Elvish's comments. You can too at Contact LibDems. Now going to add my voice to Twitter.

I believe you.

MaloryMad Wed 02-May-12 11:22:42

I've emailed the Lib Dems too.

LimburgseVlaai Wed 02-May-12 11:25:33

Savannah - what if a girl is on her phone, walks in front of a car and is knocked unconscious. Would it then be OK for a man she'd just met in a pub to have sex with her? After all, it's her own fault for not paying attention to the road.

LimburgseVlaai Wed 02-May-12 11:27:09

Sorry x-post (sort of) with LadySybil

messyisthenewtidy Wed 02-May-12 11:27:56

Savanna, I'm really sorry for your experience but I think there are some differences:

First, a second guy did not come along and have sex with you whilst you were passed out. If he had, at that point, you would have been too drunk to have consented. The person that you had sex with was the equivalent of Macdonald, who was acquitted, not Evans.

Secondly, as I understand it, Evans part in the rape was filmed, which was probably used in court and showed her lack of consent. Considering the conviction rates for rape are so low, if a jury found him guilty that means something.

Third, you didn't go to the police after did you? This woman did, knowing that what she was doing, bringing a charge of rape against a footballer, would lead to such public scrutiny, yet with no financial gain. My money is on her feeling strongly enough about it because it actually happened.

Lastly, wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a world where a gentleman sees a drunk woman and instead of thinking "woohoo, fair game" puts her in a taxi and sends her home? What kind of sickness is it that these men felt it was ok to take advantage of her in this way? That in itself should be a crime IMO.

LadySybilDeChocolate Wed 02-May-12 11:28:17

smile

ApocalypseThen Wed 02-May-12 11:29:32

I think what I am trying to say is that I don’t believe her I think she got drunk went back with guys and then felt extremely bad for having sex with them and called rape. I fully support his girlfriend and I would do the same if it was my husband.

Ah yes, the well worn excuse that women simply regret having sex so they pretend they were raped. For no reason at all. Then they go through all of the proceedures for making a formal accusation - the internal exams, multiple interviews, all that - and manage to convince the police and the prosecution service and a jury. They waste all that time, effort and face all that humiliation and invasion because they regretted doing something perfectly legal. They keep their story straight under intense pressure and convince multiple people.

That's far more likely than that they've actually been raped as they've claimed.

Also, in this instance, she didn't go back with "guys". The guy who was finally convicted wasn't there by her invitation.

SavannaandAddisonmommy Wed 02-May-12 11:30:01

What you came up with is completely diffrent and of course that is rape. I only wanted to tell my story and give my op.

Rindercella Wed 02-May-12 11:30:12

4 players charged with sexual assault and voyeurism. Of course they have only been charged and it will be a while before the case comes to court, so innocent until proven guilty, etc. However, there do seem to be an inordinate amount of stories and allegations of football players being involved with this sort of stuff.

I will say again that the FA need to be absolutely clear of their stance on this. Will they continue to condone such horrendous criminal acts by their members? Or will they put a stake in the ground and say that players found guilty of such acts will not be tolerated (or awarded). I am sure as hell positive that if someone who worked as a project manager or a civil servant would not be allowed his job back following a conviction for rape, much less still be allowed to collect a professional award after his conviction.

LadySybilDeChocolate Wed 02-May-12 11:31:26

Incidents like this have been happening for years, Rindercella. sad

Just got the following reply from the Liberal Democrats

Thank you for contacting us regarding the comments made by Liberal Democrat council candidate Liam Elvish on Facebook about the Ched Evans case.
I would like to make it absolutely clear that the party does not agree with the views expressed by Mr Elvish. It is completely inappropriate and damaging to make light of offences such as rape. He has now recognised his mistake and has apologised for his remarks.
However, the Liberal Democrats take comments like these very seriously. The local party will be looking into these comments and will take appropriate further action.
Thank you once again for making us aware of your concerns on this matter.
Kind regards,
Rory Belcher
Liberal Democrats

Will keep an eye on the appropriate further action. I hope that this is done before Thursday

Bartiimaeus Wed 02-May-12 11:32:49

I believe her.

I can't get over just how frequent rape is in our society today. Disgusting and depressing.

Atreegrowsinbrooklyn Wed 02-May-12 11:33:02

Savannah

You woke up, and in your own words said you felt that you had not been raped.

Your experience is just that. Your Experience. So don't make the mistake of extrapolating your experience onto that of others.

The court found Evans guilty of rape. It is very hard to secure a conviction of rape. He was found guilty.

ZuzuandZara Wed 02-May-12 11:46:52

I believe her.

MyDogShitsShoes Wed 02-May-12 11:52:02

I think the thing about all this that's making me so angry is that so many people think it's the victim's fault for "getting themselves into that situation".

I don't know how to explain that it isn't consensual because she didn't say no.

It's rape because she didn't say yes.

ApocalypseThen Wed 02-May-12 11:57:16

I think the thing about all this that's making me so angry is that so many people think it's the victim's fault for "getting themselves into that situation".

Yep, and of course, they don't think about the very tricky road that's going to lead them down. If rape victims are responsible because they're in a situation, is a child responsible for being raped by a family member for being in that family? Is a wife responsible for being raped by a husband because she's in the same house? Is an elderly person in care home responsible for their rape because of their situation?

The fact is this. Nobody has the right to put as much as a finger on another person without their express consent. Being drunk is not consent. Existing is not consent. Being in a room is not consent. Being outdoors is not consent.

You do not touch someone unless they are OK with it. You just don't do it. No grey areas. None.

discophile Wed 02-May-12 12:05:04

This thread is to support the woman in the Ched Evans case.

I believe you.

MyDogShitsShoes Wed 02-May-12 12:06:51

You articulate yourself so much better than I can apocalypse.

I believe her.

MadeInChinaBaby Wed 02-May-12 12:31:53

I believe her.

ohanotherone Wed 02-May-12 12:35:37

I believe her.

Men need to know that they can't rape women.
They can't rape drunk women.
They can't rape women wearing skimpy clothes.
They can't rape women who are their girlfriends and wives just because they are in the same room as them and they think they own them and have the right to!

chocolatecheesecake Wed 02-May-12 12:38:11

I believe her

imogengladheart Wed 02-May-12 12:45:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CowboysGal Wed 02-May-12 12:59:26

shock shock SavannaandAddisonmommy think that you're own experience is valid as it is your experience, however your circumstances were different and I think it isn't appropriate to come on a supportive thread for a girl suffering a backlash in the press and in small sections of society to state your belief.
This isn't AIBU.
Have some compassion for that poor girl

NovackNGood Wed 02-May-12 13:00:12

The Judge has no say in the verdict. He is the one who passed down the minimum sentence available to him.

Kushti Wed 02-May-12 13:00:52

Another way of putting what I said it is that young people are deliberately getting themselves into states where their judgement is seriously impaired to the point where they are completely out of control of their own actions on an alarmingly regular basis.

I certainly don't think that a woman deserves to be raped because she's was very drunk, but I do think that she would have seriously impaired judgement, may not be able to walk or talk properly and may even be unconscious. To me that is vulnerable and it worries me sick that my DD will be part of this culture.

TheRhubarb Wed 02-May-12 13:06:46

Can I ask why the other footballer didn't get a conviction? Surely if she was too drunk to consent to one then she was too drunk to consent to the other?

I believe her.

Getting an obviously pissed women in a car, driving her to a hotel and then having sex with her is rape. They maintained she was in control of her actions, the hotel receptionist maintained that she was not and that hotel receptionist was so concerned that he/she went to the room to check on what was happening. I'm just sad they didn't report it to the police straight away.

ApocalypseThen Wed 02-May-12 13:08:13

To me that is vulnerable and it worries me sick that my DD will be part of this culture.

Mmmm. I think that's a concern for another thread. In light of the remarks that people have made about this woman, I'm sure you can see how it comes across as victim-blaming, even if that's not your intention.

Kushti Wed 02-May-12 13:09:34

And I also think that a huge number of women have been raped while drunk but don't remember what had happened, or think they have consented when they haven't. This girl's story is only the tip of the iceberg.

Clearly I also think it is disgusting that men think they can get away with rape if the women is paralytic.

ApocalypseThen Wed 02-May-12 13:11:24

Can I ask why the other footballer didn't get a conviction?

Well, as I've said before, I suspect it's down to the whole idea that if she wasn't actually struggling, consent was implied in this case, even if we all know that going to a room with someone is not consent and even if it were, that she would have had the right to withdraw consent. I imagine that the jury decided that going to the hotel showed that she did consent in the first instance, but the manner in which the second man came on the scene didn't imply consent in the same way.

I wasn't on the jury and am not party to any of their deliberations, however, knowing the reasons why women often fail to get a conviction in these cases leads me to suspect that that was what happened.

Kushti Wed 02-May-12 13:11:34

ApocalypseThen - yes point taken, I do believe her, I am just hoping this thread is also going to highlight ways in which we can begin to combat this sad

mrspepperpotty Wed 02-May-12 13:11:40

I believe her

dottyspotty2 Wed 02-May-12 13:13:56

Apocalypse makes some good points one of the reasons many VICTIMS of rape abuse etc don't come forward is because of the misconception of being judged by others because they judge themselves.

Their not to blame the perpetrator is you should be able to walk down the street with very revealing clothes , very drunk and be safe reality is that life isn't like that unfortunately.

spatchcock Wed 02-May-12 13:14:06

I believe her x

TheRhubarb Wed 02-May-12 13:16:15

Kushti, I have been that drunk that I'm sure a lot of people on this thread will have been too. We are responsible mothers who have all got a little carried away at times and I, like others, have found myself in vulnerable situations where I could have been taken advantage of. But believe it or not, it's against the law to take advantage of unconscious women.

You could be lying sprawled out on the pavement with no clothes on and you should be able to expect someone decent to help you home and not to rape you.

This implication that women put themselves into vulnerable situations works on the premise that men cannot control their own dicks and when they come across a pretty but drunk girl, they have to stick their penises in there.

Those two men made a choice on that night. They knew the girl was vulnerable. They had a hotel room booked specifically for the purposes of shagging someone. They didn't ask her consent, they presumed it and knew she was incapable of putting up a fight. They probably hoped she wouldn't remember anything the next morning and would just stay quiet. But the idiots filmed themselves and the hotel receptionist backed up her story.

Men are not children. They are grown up adults who make decisions and choices and now they have to face the consequences. It's a shame we have to drum it into our daughters never to walk home alone, never accept a drink from a stranger, never wear revealing clothes etc just in case some bastard decides he fancies a shag.

ApocalypseThen Wed 02-May-12 13:17:11

I am just hoping this thread is also going to highlight ways in which we can begin to combat this

The only way (to my mind) is to hammer the point about what consent actually is home. I think if we start making women responsible for men's actions by forcing women to change their non-criminal behaviour so as not to give anyone an excuse to go around assaulting us, we're getting into very dangerous territory.

TheRhubarb Wed 02-May-12 13:22:13

Thank you for explaining that Apocalypse.

Astr0naut Wed 02-May-12 13:23:44

I believe her.

ErnesttheBavarian Wed 02-May-12 13:25:08

anybody going to be emailing Brighton and Hove Albion re their 3 players? Their web site is a total mess! Looks like and over excited teenage boy designed it.

Anyway, it's an absolutely alarming epidemic of casual sex abuse in football atm, or so it seems.

Watched a programme t'other night about the 70's, how women were fighting for equality, pubs with rooms barring women, so sex equality act, equal pay etc. Our mothers' generation fought for so much, and so hard against oppression and injustice, and it honestly feels like in many ways we're worse off now than then sad

As for the lady in this case, I believe you! I'm grateful that you were strong enough to take a stand. I hope you can feel proud of yourself and the support from so many people.

It's time we took a stand against this.

LimburgseVlaai Wed 02-May-12 13:25:22

Just got what seems to be a standard reply from the Liberal Democrats:

Thank you for contacting us regarding the comments made by Liberal Democrat council candidate Liam Elvish on Facebook about the Ched Evans case.
I would like to make it absolutely clear that the party does not agree with the views expressed by Mr Elvish. It is completely inappropriate and damaging to make light of offences such as rape. He has now recognised his mistake and has apologised for his remarks.
However, the Liberal Democrats take comments like these very seriously. The local party will be looking into these comments and will take appropriate further action.
Thank you once again for making us aware of your concerns on this matter.
Kind regards,
Rory Belcher
Liberal Democrats

NovackNGood Wed 02-May-12 13:26:29

Very few rapes happen by a stranger attacking someone walking down a street so it should not be a judgement on the victim what they wear where they walk. Most rapes happen within the home within a relationship

TheRhubarb Wed 02-May-12 13:26:36

An unfortunate surname for Rory there.

LadySybilDeChocolate Wed 02-May-12 13:36:14

I've never considered myself to be a feminist, I do believe in equal rights for men and women though and I'm truly disgusted with what I see around me. Women are still not an equal, we are underpaid, spoken down to, raped, beaten and abused. It's no better in 2012 then it was in 1912 or earlier come to think of it. Something needs to be done. We are not blow up dolls for men to have sex with and abandon. What do I need to join? (sorry for digressing.)

Quenelle Wed 02-May-12 13:38:15

I believe her.

bubbles12 Wed 02-May-12 13:46:50

I believe her.

I dislike the genearl Mumsnet "I Believe You" campaign because it implies a presumption of guilt by the third party without trial by peers, against one of the central tenets of British Justice.

However, this woman has had her case heard by a trial of peers and Ched Evans was found guilty. So YES I BELIEVE YOU.

NRaven31 Wed 02-May-12 14:06:05

I believe her.

misriko Wed 02-May-12 14:09:51

I have just emailed the Lib dems and wonder how on earth they can still pursue him as a candidate. Clearly if we have political candidates or political party members trivialising such an attack and calling Ched Evans sentence excessive we have a serious problem of the people running for government. He should be publicly shamed as should Mr. Evans and not be allowed to play for a professional team ever again. What kind of culture are we living in when celebs think they are one above and believe they can get away with what they do. Now its time to put a stop to this and to show them it is not on.

I believe her.

It takes a lot to get me to un-lurk and post. I think she has been incredibly courageous and hope this show of support helps in some small way.

I believe her.
Elvish hasn't apologies for what he said, that email from LD head office is wrong. He apologised if anyone was offended, which is a passive, crap non-apology.

Alutek Wed 02-May-12 14:58:30

I believe her.

musttidyupmusttidyup Wed 02-May-12 15:15:43

I believe her.

I have also contacted the libdems about Liam Elvish's appalling comments.

Frontpaw Wed 02-May-12 15:35:37

He will probably just issue a mealy-mouthed 'sorry if anyone found my comments offensive'. Thats the worst apology ever.

Modan Wed 02-May-12 15:37:39

I received the same bland repsonse from rory Belcher. I have written back to point out his apology was not for the comments but for causing offence.

I just feel I cannot let this one drop, this feels like a watershed moment and I hope so much all this public support for this woman makes a difference.

I've just sent the following to Rory Belcher:

Dear Mr Belcher

As far as I am aware Mr Elvish has only apologised for any offence that he has caused not for his remarks. The two are NOT the same. He is clearly unfit for political office.

Yours sincerely

MammaBrussels

I can't believe the Liberal Democrats aren't taking this more seriously. He should not be standing for election.

AppleHEAD Wed 02-May-12 17:05:22

I believe her and I hope she stays strong and takes comfort from the fact that everyone with any sense does too.

Vickiw1 Wed 02-May-12 17:22:10

Think its about time Facebook stopped giving airspace to people who support violence against women and girls. They are directly feeding a culture that leads to only 1 rape in 10 being actually reported because of fear that the victim will be harrassed and repeat attacked and villified on line and in real life. If a woman is too drunk to stand up, then she is too drunk to run away from an aggressor - just as she would be too drunk to fight off a mugger. As a society we have to stand up for people's freedom to enjoy a night out unmolested, not for a rapist to rape or steal with impunity.

wisecamel Wed 02-May-12 18:15:44

I believe her

TwllBach Wed 02-May-12 18:20:06

A lot of posters on here are so eloquent. They are articulating a lot of things that I wouldn't even begin to know how to say so fantastically to the point.

I was attacked and raped (technically) when I was 17. I was drunk and on my own in a cab and I didn't go to the police. A huge part of the reason why I didn't was because I was very drunk and had been seen missing a number of different boys that evening and so I wouldn't look like what society want to see in terms of a victim IYSWIM.

This girl has been very brave and is being, as a PP has said already, raped all over again. This time not by the justice system but by members of the public. To hear that members of political parties are making disgusting comments as well is just the icing on a very sickening cake.

I've said it before, but I'm saying it again:

I believe her.

banditqueen Wed 02-May-12 18:22:56

I believe her

redshoes Wed 02-May-12 18:23:48

I believe her

So sorry about your experience TwllBach sad

Sonotkylie Wed 02-May-12 18:57:25

AJsDaddy ... That AJ is a lucky lad. Well said

muminthecity Wed 02-May-12 19:32:42

I believe her. The judge and jury believe her. According to the petition, over 16,000 people believe her.

wicketter Wed 02-May-12 19:42:26

it doesn't matter how drunk you are, rape is still rape. that poor girl has suffered enough. i am just wondering if all sides should just let it go. its not our arguement and although i am sure she appreciates the support 1/ we are fuelling arguements from the twats and 2/ she should be allowed to move on. she needs to be able to recover in peace. and just to be clear i completely believe her!

I believe her too.

happyhev Wed 02-May-12 20:30:22

I believe her too.

Snapespeare Wed 02-May-12 20:38:52

Thank you for being brave. I believe you.

Lorelilee Wed 02-May-12 20:38:59

I believe her. Because she was telling the truth.

BitchyHen Wed 02-May-12 20:42:09

I believe her.

geekette Wed 02-May-12 20:49:31

I had a message for savanna earlier on which was eaten by my phone. grr.

savanna, you woke up to find the last person you had been chatting to on top of you.

You did not wake up to that person, some other random bloke you don't know and two other voyeurs.

Can you tell the difference?

By the way I withhold my opinion on the guy who had sex with you whilst you were in and out of consciousness.

Generally, my current thoughts are: Guys know when they want to have sex. Great for them. It is NEVER up to the guy to decide when a woman wants to have sex. Just like he has the right to know when he wants sex, she also has the right to that decision. Once he makes this decision on her behalf and acts on it, there is a question of rape. Well, it is not a question in my mind.

Replace guy and woman depending on the sexuality of the partners as you see fit.

Ghanagirl Wed 02-May-12 21:00:57

Poor baby, she's just a little girl I believe you get better get strong

iheartdusty Wed 02-May-12 21:04:03

I believe her.

She did not consent. That is that. Being drunk, getting into taxis, talking to footballers - none of those things constitute consent to sex.

LavenderCakes Wed 02-May-12 21:14:49

I believe her.

I hope she feels the support that she's getting from all sane people and ignores those who are standing up for a convicted rapist. I can't even imagine that at 19 I would have been so brave to go through a trial, see this reaction, and not crumble. I hope she understands that so many of us are rooting for her and believe she WILL GET THROUGH THIS.

Also have emailed LibDems. It's heartbreaking.

Oblomov Wed 02-May-12 21:16:27

I believe her.
How can anyone not?
The football world should be so very ashamed.

ohnevermind Wed 02-May-12 21:24:37

I bellieve her.
Shame on the lib dems too.

Brianstorm Wed 02-May-12 21:25:33

I believe her.

I believe her.

sylview Wed 02-May-12 22:06:01

As a mother of a teenage girl who is an ardent Sheffield Utd fan I am not sure what to think about this or to say to her. It is horrible that the girl has been named and vilified but do I tell my daughter that getting so drunk you cannot remember what you did is acceptable? Maybe there are better role models for this campaign?

sylview are you serious? If your daughter was raped when she was drunk would you think it was her fault? confused

LtEveDallas Wed 02-May-12 22:14:15

Sylvie, you tell your daughter that NO MATTER WHAT if she gets drunk, or drugged or is stone cold sober NO ONE has the right to have sex with her. Not even a Blades player

#ibelieveher

She's not a role model for any campaign Sylview, she's the victim of a violent sexual assault. Why would you need to tell your daughter that getting drunk is acceptable? Would you not be more concerned with the type of role model the footballers are providing? confused

D0oinMeCleanin Wed 02-May-12 22:21:39

Can we stop with the drunk comments please? Aside from all the very valid points already made about her state of drunkeness not being a form of consent the girl in question believes she may have been drugged prior to ending up in the take away. She believes she drank no more than she usually would on a night out without being effected so badly. The take away manager also stated that she was in a state he had never seen her in before.

And again drunk does not equal fair game. Just so we are clear on that. In fact it means the opposite. No real man would want to penetrate a female so drunk that she can barely talk. Only a rapist would do that. Only the rapist would be responible for his actions. Not the victim, not the drink and not anything else.

Theglassishalffull Wed 02-May-12 22:23:36

I believe her.

I was sexually assaulted when I was 14 he was 18. I was out and was very drunk. The victim in this case has my utmost respect for having the guts to report it. Something I could not do but wish I did.

sylview Wed 02-May-12 22:24:02

SeventhEverything Of course not but I think we all have a duty of care to our kids - and suggesting if you are drunk you should be safe seems not the right message and as I said before I am not sure what the answer is.

wicketter Wed 02-May-12 22:25:42

can i just say that if you are raped you tend to sober up very quickly-unfortunately

Theglassishalffull Wed 02-May-12 22:28:21

Sylvie what a stupid thing to say!! Was it my fault when I was assaulted because I was very very drunk? I put myself in a compromising position by going off with him I never asked for what he did though!!

D0oinMeCleanin Wed 02-May-12 22:29:50

You should be safe from rape if you are drunk. Rapists also rape sober people you know? And people they know. And people in the comfort of their own home.

If you are unfortunate enough to be in the presence of a rapist not being drunk will not keep you safe.

Of course people should not get so drunk they can barely walk. They might stumble into the road and get hit by a car, they might fall into a canal, they might fall asleep in the cold and die of hypothermia. Staying sober enough to be in control can protect you from all of those things. It cannot, unfortunately, protect you from rape. Only the rapist can do that by choosing not to rape you.

Theglassishalffull Wed 02-May-12 22:30:44

I was referring to the 1st comment

Theglassishalffull Wed 02-May-12 22:33:14

Dooin I agree...sadly I learnt that a very difficult way.

sylview Wed 02-May-12 22:36:40

Sorry i seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here when I was just asking a question- and seem to have been misunderstood so I will back out

CailinDana Wed 02-May-12 22:36:41

Theglassishalffull, I would argue that you didn't put yourself in a compromising position at all. You went off with another person, that's a normal thing people do, that was not wrong in any way. Yes, you were drunk, that's another normal thing people do. He assaulted you. That is a crime. You are in no way to blame for what he did. You didn't put yourself in any compromising position you were just an ordinary person doing normal things who had the horrible bad luck to come in contact with a criminal. Please don't take any of the blame for it.

CailinDana Wed 02-May-12 22:39:13

If you are drunk you should be safe from rapists sylview, that is the right message to give your daughter. If you don't give her that message then the only other possible message is that if she does get drunk and gets raped then she is partially to blame because she should expect to get raped if she is drunk. Do you want to give her that message?

EllieG Wed 02-May-12 22:40:22

I believe her.

MinnieBar Wed 02-May-12 22:48:29

I have said this already, but it's worth saying again:

I believe her.

I emailed the Lib Dems (the local branch that represents Hellish, sorry Elvish - haven't even had the standard response email back. Pah.

mightycheeks Wed 02-May-12 23:01:51

I believe her.

perfectstorm Wed 02-May-12 23:14:43

Sylview, if someone were stabbed when drunk, would you say they had been irresponsible, and were not a good role model for a campaign against knife crime? It's precisely the same thing. (And please, don't embarrass yourself yet further by pretending that you would.) Shocking comments from another woman. Shameful and frightening.

As to believing her - it is sad and rather pathetic that that even needs saying. She's brave as hell for taking this all the way, given the way she has been treated and the status of the piece of shit who did this to her. She is a rape victim, and deserves society's complete support. What she's been given instead makes me despair. Thank God for Mumsnet.

maristella Wed 02-May-12 23:18:57

I believe her.

I also applaud her, she took on goliath and got a danger to women locked up. A huge achievement, just so brave

kipperandtiger Thu 03-May-12 03:40:26

I believe her.

And those who named and insulted her on Twitter and other social media sites should be prosecuted - or at least be warned they can be prosecuted. They are treading on very thin ice and could soon be made a precedent of.

kipperandtiger Thu 03-May-12 03:44:36

If a woman is drunk that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

If a woman is over friendly but refuses to have sex that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

If a woman changes her mind about going ahead with sex that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

If a woman works as a prostitute that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

If a woman is drugged and acting oddly that doesn't give anyone the right to rape her.

No means no. (And the same applies for male victims - no means no.)

I believe her

PtCatalyst Thu 03-May-12 08:14:07

I believe her.

RalphGnu Thu 03-May-12 08:40:44

I still believe her. Have been reading tweets this morning from Ched supporters who consider him a hero. Don't know whether to feel sickened by them or feel sorry for them.

#IBelieveHer

Longtime Thu 03-May-12 08:45:45

I believe her.

A friend got very drunk at her 21st birthday party. She went for a lie down in her bedroom and pretty much passed out. Woke up to find some man just finishing up, thank you very much. That is RAPE. (She got pregnant from this too sad .)

ZZZenAgain Thu 03-May-12 08:48:50

they are not doing him any favours. If they had left the victim alone, who knows how his appeal would have gone. I would say the outcome is fairly clear now though. They must be awfully thick not to realise how much they are damaging his case.

ApocalypseThen Thu 03-May-12 08:51:24

I wish this hadn't happened to this girl, but from society's point of view, I'm glad that the toxic attitudes are getting a decent airing now and everyone can see what feminists have been saying for years - we live in a rape culture where the crime of rape is minimised and the victim is routinely blamed. I've seen so much denial of this, but now it's all out in the open we can tackle it remorselessly.

Longtime Thu 03-May-12 08:59:14

Just remembered that this also happened to another friend of mine, this time at a party at her boyfriend's house! Neither of these friends reported the rape, as is the case with so many rapes.

The jury must have had overwhelming evidence to convict this footballer. In this hero-worship culture, I would imagine that sadly there would have been plenty of the jurors who would not have believed her otherwise.

Longtime Thu 03-May-12 09:07:27

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/aug/12/layla-jailed-after-reporting-sexual-assault?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

This is not a new story but one I've only just read. I am speechless :-(

Longtime Thu 03-May-12 09:07:41
efffy Thu 03-May-12 09:59:54

I believe her.

CurlsRUs Thu 03-May-12 10:02:17

I posted "I believe her" on that horrible FB group calling for Ched Evans to get a retrial. My post was deleted quite quickly, but not before I received lots of nasty messages from women (!) supporting him...

efffy Thu 03-May-12 10:05:45

Goodness I just read the story posted by Longtime I am also utterly speechless. Poor girl.

sad

FormSquare Thu 03-May-12 10:14:56

Longtime, you seem to be happy that the footyball player was sent down, but unhappy about the layla case?

Surely if you beleive the justice system to be wrong in one case it could be wrong in the otehr?

I don't know enough aout either case to comment upon them directly, but in my eyes the cases of viscious women claiming rape is as abhorrent as rape itself and should be dealt with accordingly.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1003683/Jailed-The-evil-21-year-old-seduced-soldier-accused-rape.html

What would have happened to the bloke in this instance? Sent to prison, dodgint the other lags, doging boiling water and sugar, the 'black mark' against his name...

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 03-May-12 10:17:46

Morning all.

We thought you might be interested to hear that the police have now arrested 13 people in connection with the naming on Twitter of the woman at the centre of the Ched Evans' trial.

FormSquare Thu 03-May-12 10:18:58

It's been in the news. I hate these imbeciles who feel the need to trawl her name in public.

noseynoonoo Thu 03-May-12 10:24:35

yay! Great news.

Have just plastered: I believe her #IBelieveHer over that rancid FB page.

geekette Thu 03-May-12 10:39:08

Good news on the arrests!

Still waiting for a turn-around from the PFA though... The FA seemed to be outraged by the Sun's headline from yesterday. I assume this to be moral outrage. Couldn't be bothered to read the story. They care more about sun headlines than rape convictions...

Wonder if moral outrage will hit the PFA some time soon.

Bumblefeck Thu 03-May-12 11:06:01

I believe her

I believe her.

I've signed the petition asking the PFA to remove him from their honours list and liked the Facebook page.

I've given my reasons for signing the petition as being that it isn't good enough for the PFA to say the votes were cast before the guilty verdict. It was irresponsible (at best) to vote for him knowing that a case was pending or a trial was ongoing. And you cannot separate the rape from his profession as they used their status as footballers to pick up women and to claim that women want to have sex with them because of the job they do. Even to claim that that is what this woman did.

Not good enough PFA. His status as a footballer is very much bound up in this case and he does not deserve to be professionally honoured in any way because of that. To keep him on the list dishonours every other person on that list and any decent sportsman on it should ask to be removed from it if YOU keep Ched Evans on it because YOU ARE condoning what he did to this woman.

And sorry if this has already been posted but these are the contact details for the PFA if anyone wants to email them directly to request his removal from their honours list.

sillyrubberduck Thu 03-May-12 12:22:33

I believe her !!

frumperina Thu 03-May-12 12:49:47

I can't believe this has passed me by for so long. Must have been hiding under a rock.
I believe her!
And have signed the PFA petition.

ZZZenAgain Thu 03-May-12 12:50:38

Guardian reporting on an international echo - ugly response by a so-called journalist (perhaps he is, perhaps he is not, apparently they wish to protect his anonymity) on the English language kremlin steered Russia Today:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/02/russia-today-ched-evans-rapeRussiaToday

ZZZenAgain Thu 03-May-12 12:51:58

sniff. I can do links, really I can

here

at least have the guts to use your name

mrswarthog Thu 03-May-12 12:52:30

I believe her

Imperfectionist Thu 03-May-12 12:54:16

I believe her.

imogengladheart Thu 03-May-12 14:37:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

surfsister Thu 03-May-12 15:18:11

20 thousand signatures now asking for Ched to lose his place in the team of the year.

FrothyDragon Thu 03-May-12 15:26:22

I believe her... as do 1609 people (and rising) on Facebook.

Great news re: the petition

Bramshott Thu 03-May-12 15:58:40

I imagine because I have "liked" the We Believe You page on FB - I'm now getting the "Securing and Immediate Retrial" page under "recommended pages" which seems rather dubious hmm. Anyone else? Worth taking up with FB do you think?

perfectstorm Thu 03-May-12 16:08:32

maristella said:

"I also applaud her, she took on goliath and got a danger to women locked up. A huge achievement, just so brave"

This, this, and this again. If there is any way Mumsnet can get that message to her from the members here - that she has made the world a little safer for each and every one of us by doing this, and our daughters, too, and that we know it and are grateful to her - I hope they do. She deserves to know her courage is not unrecognised and not unappreciated.

FrothyDragon Thu 03-May-12 16:16:57

Are you, Bramshott? sad I do think it's very much worth taking up with Facebook. Is anyone else having this problem?

I've sent my email to the PFA too. If I get a reply I will post it here.

FrothyDragon Thu 03-May-12 16:29:03

The PFA are using the excuse they have to support him through his appeal, it seems, as they're his union... hmm

mapleleef Thu 03-May-12 16:45:34

I believe her.

Discussing this with my 15 year old, he said the men should have looked after her when they knew she was very drunk and then unconscious and helped her get safely back home. What sort of mental age has Ched Evans? What sort of men film an act like this instead of helping her?

This brave woman deserves all our support. I hope she's made aware of this.

FrothyDragon Thu 03-May-12 16:49:19

Mapleleef, that sounds like a very sensible DS you have. smile

girlpancake Thu 03-May-12 16:54:29

I believe her, and well done to her for doing the right thing by society and reporting it to the police. She may well have done other women a big favour.

CailinDana Thu 03-May-12 16:58:10

I just want to say to any rape survivors out there reading girlpancake's post that if you didn't report your rape you didn't do the "wrong thing" and it is your choice whether to report or not. When you've gone through something like that there is no "right thing" to do and you are under no obligation to do anything you don't want to do.

Bramshott Thu 03-May-12 18:02:36

I suppose it could be because I looked at the page before (when it was linked from this thread). I certainly don't want it "recommended" though.

poppops10 Thu 03-May-12 18:37:40

I believe her

Casserole Thu 03-May-12 18:39:24

Any updates / anything more we can do?

JuliaScurr Thu 03-May-12 18:45:13

This ......... notes: 1. Ched Evans of Sheffield Utd and three other men were involved in the rape of a young woman. 2. Supporters of Sheffield Utd and Ched Evans unlawfully named the woman and perpetuated a series of rape myths on social network sites, for which some have been arrested. 3. This ......... further notes the prevalence of rape and sexual assault in Britain, affecting 25% of women resulting in only a 6% conviction rate. 4. This ........ further notes TUC policy on violence against women. 5. This ........ further notes that the PFA is affiliated to TUC. 1. This ......... calls on the TUC to require affiliates to use appropriate disciplinary procedures against members acting in contravention of TUC policy on violence against women. 2. To produce educational materials on the law relating to sexual violence and consent, in collaboration with Rape Crisis; to be distributed to fans through publication in match programmes, adverts shown at grounds, televised matches and the national press. 3. These actions to start with immediate effect.

Please note - we don't yet have the OK from Rape Crisis, but you could delete that bit and replace with 'Women's Committee'' or similar.

If you're in a union or know someone who is, contact your branch secretary to get this on the agenda of the next meeting. Get the TUC to actively suppo/rt their own polic ies!

lucyellensmumnamechange Thu 03-May-12 19:01:19

I have the "we believe her" on my facebook - some of the article have "Trigger warnings" what does that mean?

PoorAudreyHorseface Thu 03-May-12 19:04:47

On what grounds is Ched Evans appealing?

dottyspotty2 Thu 03-May-12 19:12:56

Trigger warnings is a warning for victims that it may trigger memories its not nice when you come across them.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Thu 03-May-12 19:24:33

I believe her.

BasilEatsFoulEggs Thu 03-May-12 19:52:29

Thanks for posting that link to the PFA NoOnesGoingTo.

The other person it might be worth getting in contact with, is Clarke Carlisle, the chairman of the PFA. According to one of the posters on the We Beleive You Facebook page, he made a statement of support for the White Ribbon campaign and he's an ambassador for Kick It Out. So really, he should have somethng to say about this. Here's his blog site:

www.realbuzz.com/blogs/u/Clarke_Carlisle/clarke-carlisle-s-blog/

Vev Thu 03-May-12 20:10:28

I believe her.

lucyellensmumnamechange Thu 03-May-12 20:17:00

Thanks Dotty - oh and i forgot to say - i believe her!

Empusa Thu 03-May-12 20:28:37

bramshott I got the same, I was not impressed at all!

EllenJaneisnotmyname Thu 03-May-12 20:46:11

I believe her, of course I do.

FeakAndWeeble Thu 03-May-12 20:50:27

Thanks Casserole. I've emailed.

And I believe her.

FormSquare Thu 03-May-12 21:07:20

Is this actually how you want justice in the UK to be handled?

One lot of people saying they don't believe, and another lot saying they do.

We have a perfectly good system, that works this sort of thing out.

The courts.

Igmum Thu 03-May-12 21:08:45

I believe her

Avver Thu 03-May-12 21:36:23

I believe her.

BasilEatsFoulEggs Thu 03-May-12 21:38:11

No, we don't have a perfectly good justice system, FourSquare.

We have a justice system that is set up to enable rapists to rape women and get away with it.

The vast majroity of rapes go unreported because victims know that there is no point going through the humiliation and trauma of reporting.

Of the tiny minority of rapes which are reported, only 6% end in a conviction , even thought the rate of false accusations is between 2-8%.

And even when a woman brave and determined enough is able to get a conviction, she is named and vilified and subjected to a bloody vicious hate campaign online. Some men who posted, threatened to rape her again if they ever met her. And they know who she is.

Anyone who starts crying justice when it comes to rape, just hasn't been concentrateing. There fucking isn't any.

dottyspotty2 Thu 03-May-12 22:01:23

How do you work that out FourSquare slap on the wrist for the perpetrator and a fucking life sentence for the victim and humiliation of them in the process.

CoffeeAhorlicksAnonymous Thu 03-May-12 22:05:04

I was violently raped aged 12 by a 45year old man, my step father, who was repeatedly sent home from court after being let off GBH charges as it was domestic violence.

There's no difference between a 12 year old sober child being raped than a drunk woman. It's the ultimate soul destroying, sickening violation.

I believe her and I would say to her, she's not alone in being hated, I have been, stay strong, you know who the sick people are sad

CoffeeAhorlicksAnonymous Thu 03-May-12 22:08:42

And yes I have a life sentence, horrific flashbacks of a violent rape and high levels of dissociation because of the trauma.

The rapists should get life.

FeakAndWeeble Thu 03-May-12 22:18:07

FormSquare you don't seem to have any understanding of what this thread is actually about.

This isn't how we want justice in the UK to be handled. At all. That's the point. Threads like these, Facebook pages like these, they shouldn't be necessary. A vile crime was committed and the perpetrator has been sentenced. That should be the end of it.

But it isn't. So we are trying to make ourselves heard to make a fucking difference to the way rape victims are treated both politically and in the media.

And suggesting that we have 'a perfectly good system' when it comes to cases of sexual violence is a frighteningly ignorant thing to say.

dottyspotty2 Thu 03-May-12 22:23:48

Me to coffee knowing what a rape/abuse victim goes through when they go to the police imho no-one in their right mind would lie its to damn horrible she is honest.

edam Thu 03-May-12 22:42:13

Form - we are saying 'I believe her' because she has been raped, and the rapist has been convicted, but disgusting creeps on Twitter thought it was funny to abuse her, to post horrible, horrible comments about her and to break the law by naming her. The woman has not only suffered by being raped, but by being abused in public and by losing her legally-guaranteed anonymity. We are sending a message that the disgusting creeps who have attacked her are in the minority and there are lots of decent people who DO believe her.

I believe her

pinkpyjamas Thu 03-May-12 23:34:22

FormSquare, the courts have found this man guilty of rape.
His victim is being villified, whilst he, the rapist, is being held up as a sports hero and a wrongly-accused scapegoat.

Some of the comments about this woman is beyond belief.
Some of the rape myths being flung around would make your skin crawl.

Lots of people want to make a stand and show that they will not let this go unchallenged.

Showing victims of rape that they are believed is a vital statement, which reaches far beyond this individual case.

Frideswide Fri 04-May-12 00:24:26

I believe her.

FrothyDragon Fri 04-May-12 00:38:34

FormSquare

The #ibelieveher campaign (here, Facebook, twitter and anywhere else) is a reaction to the way this woman has been treated, even after "justice" was served. She's been vilified. she's been named. She's been silenced.

We're showing there's people on her side, and as admin of the FB page can tell you, we seem to be bringing other women out of silence too, even if it's only in a PM to the page. "I Believe her" can repair what the claims of the Ched supporters seek to silence

kipperandtiger Fri 04-May-12 02:49:16

Formsquare - with all due respect, yes there is a system in place. But even the people who work WITHIN the system - the judges, barristers, solicitors, etc will say that the system does not work perfectly and sometimes does not work well. It will only work as well as the people within it are able to. Justice for rape victims and the fair handling of a rape case has come a long way even in the last 20 years, and is vastly different to how it was 50 years ago. Until one has had direct experience of the situation, one cannot begin to comprehend how much of it is stacked unfairly against the victim in the first place.

Utter shock and repulsion angry at what happened to Layla Ibrahim.

Fenouille Fri 04-May-12 06:04:43

I believe her too.

jumblejam Fri 04-May-12 06:55:19

I believe you

Hopefullyrecovering Fri 04-May-12 07:41:09

I believe her

motn Fri 04-May-12 07:57:00

I believe her.

FormSquare Fri 04-May-12 08:05:41

So an internet based 'mob' is acceptable?

How many people putting 'I beleive her' are doing it to look cool on the t'interweb (like those rubber bands you see everyone wearing now adays in a desperate attempt to look caring) or even know the first thing (from primary source) about that case? Or Layla's?

I can't find a link now, but certanly one young lad was forced to leave home and hide due to a 'hue and cry' style mob and a false accusation of rape. Even AFTER the girl involved retracted, admitted she wasn't raped and the evidence (including CCTV evidence) as released. She walked around not a care in the world, he wasn't able to attend a family funeral!

The link I put in above had a young lads life wrecked for 15 months, the woman who accused him of rape got 12 months in nick. And there were no end of campagning for her name to be withheld... no such protection for innocent men, merely accused of being a rapist.

Rape cases are such an issue that, quite frankly, the Police MUST be absolutely sure that they are doing the right thing. Not just listening to some made up story from a mental case. The bloke is going to suffer in a big way, for hte rest of his life. Even if it turns out that the accuser was talking rubbish.

It isn't all about the raped woman. Her rights don't suddenly trump all because she claims rape. Jilted lovers, turned down women and utter nutters have all made false claims. And the way our society is once a mans name is in the papers with the word 'rape' then he may aswell go jump off a cliff.

Do carry on with your e-Mob.

pinkpyjamas Fri 04-May-12 08:19:25

"It isn't all about the raped woman. Her rights don't suddenly trump all because she claims rape".

I don't understand what your point is, but then you don't seem to understand the point of this thread either.

No-one is saying that her rights trump all.

Lots of people ARE saying that the victim of a convicted rapist deserves to remain anonymous, in accordance with the law.

Lots of people ARE saying that the victim of a convicted rapist does not deserve to be villified and become the focus of a hate campaign.

And they are saying that by grouping together to say it as loudly and in many places as possible, because this shit has gone on for way too long, and it is time things changed.

Hopefullyrecovering Fri 04-May-12 08:19:56

Do you understand what this thread is about, Formsquare? It is a support thread for a victim of rape (the rapist was TRIED AND CONVICTED) who has had to suffer her right to anonymity being removed.

It has nothing to do with false allegations of rape, which are of course deplorable, and everything to do with support for a young woman.

I object to your post on the grounds of irrelevance, and general decency. It reads as an apology for rapists.

BasilEatsFoulEggs Fri 04-May-12 08:21:14

Could you please stop repeating rape myths on a support thread for a rape victim FormSquare.

The police do not have to be any more careful with rape allegations than they do with the allegation of any other crime, becasue women do not lie about rape any more than anyone else lies about any other crime and the life and welfare of someone accused of rape, is not more valuable than the life and welfare of someone accused of any other crime.

To state or imply that this is the case, is to promote rape myths and on a thread to support the woman Ched Evans raped, that behaviour is disgraceful.

Please keep your misogyny off this thread.

SundaeGirl Fri 04-May-12 08:51:33

FormSquare, you are quite misunderstanding the situation. The girl in the Ched Evans case was raped and her rapist was found guilty. What are you referring to?

LtEveDallas Fri 04-May-12 09:42:08

So an internet based 'mob' is acceptable

No it isn't. The Internet based mob that vilified a poor young girl that was raped are disgusting human beings that need to be punished.

How many people putting 'I beleive her' are doing it to look cool on the t'interweb

Very few - none I know. Although by the same token how many of the disgusting specimens that villified this poor young girl and spread lie after lie about her are doing so to look cool to other Blades fans?

I can't find a link now Ohh theres a surprise.

but certanly one young lad was forced to leave home.... and certainly one young girl was vilified on the internet and in her home town called a slag and a slut, accused of lying, accused of doing it before, accused of crying rape because she opposed a rival football team. Is her treatment worse?

no such protection for innocent men, merely accused of being a rapist and no such protection for the victime of Ched Evan whose named was released, and was accused of lying about being raped.

the Police MUST be absolutely sure that they are doing the right thing They were sure, so was the CPS and so was the jury that conviced Ched Evan.

It isn't all about the raped woman yes it is - and glad to see you admit that she was raped.

And the way our society is once a mans name is in the papers with the word 'rape' then he may aswell go jump off a cliff and if the man is conviceted of rape - well frankly I hope he does.

Do carry on with your e-Mob Thank you, we will

I believed her then, I believe her now, I will always believe her. Ched Evan admitted he had sex with her, and admitted that she was drunk and incapable. He may not think that was rape - but thankfully the law does.

Take heart my love, if you are reading this, FormSquare is not a representative of the decent women and men on this site We believe you

DirtyMartini Fri 04-May-12 09:43:49

FormSquare does not misunderstand. FormSquare is making a cynical effort to derail the thread and misrepresent it as a "mob".

How about you start a thread of your own, FormSquare, to air your opinions regarding the "made up stories of mental cases" and how they threaten the freedom of Britain's young men? This thread is clearly not the place for that particular discussion.

CherryBlossom27 Fri 04-May-12 09:52:50

Excellent post LtEveDallas

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 04-May-12 09:55:10

Hello,

We just wanted to let you see the text of a letter that was sent to Gordon Taylor, Chief Executive of the PFA, a couple of days ago. The letter was co-signed by Justine, Holly Dustin of the End Violence Against Women coalition (one of our 'I Believe You' partners), and teacher Leo Hardt, whose Change.org petition to ask the PFA to remove Ched Evans from its League 1 Team of the Year has nearly 22,000 signatories.

The letter reads:

"We write to you expressing our concerns at Ched Evans' inclusion in your League One team of the year, just two days after his conviction for the rape of a teenage girl.

A change.org petition calling for Evans' removal from the list currently has almost 15,000 signatures. Campaigns on Facebook, Mumsnet, Twitter and numerous other websites are growing on an hourly basis, supported by thousands who believe that you have acted wrongly in this instance.

It is not good enough to say that the decision to keep a convicted rapist on an award list such as this one can be attributed solely to performance on the pitch, with complete disregard for such a serious criminal conviction.

Football holds a privileged position in the UK's national psyche; you have a responsibility to ensure that footballers make a positive contribution to the sport and wider society. This means ensuring that a footballer who commits a serious crime and is convicted for that offence, is not then the recipient of an honour or award. We urge you to reconsider your decision and withdraw the award from Ched Evans.

We note your previous statement that the PFA does not seek to condone Evans' actions by including him in this list, but it is obvious from the strength and volume of opposition to this award that this sentiment is disingenuous at best.

Over recent years we have seen positive action taken across the footballcommunity to tackle the issue of racism in the game and among some supporters. We feel the issues of sexism and sexual violence now requires similar attention and effort.

Last week you were quoted as saying 'If he had been removed from the team it would have created more of a storm.' We hope that the response from thousands of people across a number of social networks has sent a clear message - Ched Evans has no place in your team of the year.

We request a response from you as a matter of urgency."

And some further quotes from Justine and Holly:

"Mumsnet users feel very strongly that the PFA were wrong to honour Ched Evans only two days after his conviction for rape. They were also disgusted that his victim was outed online and many hundreds posted their support for her. Our 'We Believe You' campaign aims to expose the type of rape myths perpetuated by some of Ched Evans' supporters and we very much hope the PFA will listen to the strength of feeling both on Mumsnet and expressed via this petition." (Justine Roberts)

"The PFA must think again about its decision to include convicted rapist Ched Evans in its end of season honours list.

Football fans, and especially young people, look to successful football players as role models. Such recognition from the PFA sends a message that off the pitch behaviour, whatever it be, does not matter, when it clearly does.

We want the PFA and FA to show leadership by running an ongoing 'kick sexism out of football' campaign. This case also shows the urgent need for football authorities and individual clubs to work with women's groups to run anti sexual violence programmes. PFA and FA leaders should have a vision of the sport as one which is fully inclusive and safe to watch and play for all members of the community." (Holly Dustin, EVAW Coalition Director)

Thanks
MNHQ

TheRhubarb Fri 04-May-12 09:57:54

FormSquare - as you yourself have stated, we have a justice system to deal with this kind of thing.

The Justice System found Ched Evans guilty of rape.

He is, therefore, a rapist. So your link to one woman who falsely accused someone of rape is not relevant. This woman has been put in front of a judge and jury and she was declared to be a rape victim whilst he was declared to be a rapist.

No doubt they trawled through lots of CCTV and evidence to reach their conclusions. We have an excellent justice system in the UK and they found him guilty.

What is happening now is that the case is being used by an ignorant section of society who do not believe in the justice system. Some of these people think that is a woman is too drunk to even stand up, then she is fair game to have sex with. Some have even described it as a "typical one night stand", which makes you wonder how many women they themselves, have raped.

If a man was so blatantly drunk that he could barely stand, and a group of homosexual men came across him, put him in a taxi, took him to a hotel room and then two of them had sex with him whilst others filmed it - would this be classed as rape? Because I'm damn sure that if that man woke up, feeling sore in his arse, with no clothes on and no memory; if he had to piece together what happened from the hotel receptionist and if the police seized footage of the incident on the perpetrators phones, what do you think would happen?

Why is this being seen as different because she is a woman?

What this campaign is doing is to highlight the rape myths circulating around this case. It is highlighting ignorant attitudes and it is sending out a clear message that if you have sex with someone who is not in a state to give consent - that is rape. Pure and simple. The UK Justice System agrees wholeheartedly with that. Hopefully by making this abundantly clear, women who were previously too afraid to report their attacks to the police may come forward and we can get more rapists off our streets.

This is not about falsely crying rape. She was exonerated in the courts. So any comparison to a single case involving a false accusation is completely and utterly irrelevant.

BasilEatsFoulEggs Fri 04-May-12 10:09:56

ooh, great letter Rowan.

Will be interesting to see what they come back with.

LtEveDallas Fri 04-May-12 10:13:36

CherryBlossom, thank you smile

Rhubarb: This- Some have even described it as a "typical one night stand", which makes you wonder how many women they themselves, have raped terrifies me. I was horrifed at how many times I saw that sort of shit written down when all this blew up. Bloody good post.

LtEveDallas Fri 04-May-12 10:14:38

Rowan, excellent letter, lets hope MN gets a decent reply.

OptimisticPessimist Fri 04-May-12 10:19:11

Great posts Basil, Eve and Rhubarb.

One of the most disturbing tweets was the one that said something like "not premeditated but he gets 5 years for lack of consent". How can they not see that lack of consent is the definition of rape?!

OptimisticPessimist Fri 04-May-12 10:19:38

And great letter MNHQ.

BasilEatsFoulEggs Fri 04-May-12 10:19:38

Yep, I think it shows just how common casual rape of women is.

And most women don't report it, becasue they put it down to "bad sex", or a mistake on their part, or they know it's rape but they won't get a conviction so they put it behind them and move on.

And the internet mob which has conducted a hate campaign against Ched Evan's victim, is bloody furious that one woman has managed to get justice for the casual rape they want to be free to carry on committing. They're scared that one day, they and their son's won't be able to do this anymore without being called to justice and that their daughters will be free from the threat of this.

Shows how much they love their daughters, doesn't it.

OptimisticPessimist Fri 04-May-12 10:21:04

That's their favourite argument isn't it, what if it was your son? I'd be ashamed to be his mother if it was.

pinkpyjamas Fri 04-May-12 10:24:23

If it were my son, I'd be distraught.
And I'd feel mortified that our family had brought up a human being who could even begin to think that what he did was in any way acceptable.

BasilEatsFoulEggs Fri 04-May-12 10:26:10

I would think I had failed as a mother, to echo that woman in Strictly Ballroom.

SardineQueen Fri 04-May-12 10:29:45

Thank you for sending that letter MN.

I believe her.

SardineQueen Fri 04-May-12 10:30:57

Some have even described it as a "typical one night stand"

OMFG

TheRhubarb Fri 04-May-12 10:39:56

I am just so very very sad for my daughter and all the other girls who are growing up in a world that presumes if you have a vagina, you're fair game.

My son will be brought up to respect the rights of everyone and should he ever ever cross the line, I'll be in court on the side of the prosecution.

ZZZenAgain Fri 04-May-12 10:48:29

the vilification of the victim, the words used to insult her, the identification of her by name on the net, the threats made towards her, the dismissal of the rape as something "we have all done", "just a another one night stand" and the "there but by the grace of God" type comments have stunned me. I hadn't realised the extent of this type of hatred. I hope a very clear message will be made in the way those offenders tracked down are prosecuted.It is very important to deal with this seriously.

Further down the thread someone posted 25% of women experience rape of sexual abuse. I don't know how this estimate was made but if that is realistic that is 1 in 4 women. THe chances that your dds or a woman you know personally could be subjected to it are very high if the figures are correct.

Ched Evan's parents are going through a very hard time. I don't personally wish anything bad on them or condemn them. What strikes me as important here is that our society needs changing so it is a safer place for women, we need more awareness of what constitutes rape (apparently a great deal of men and even women don't seem to know) and we need better support for victims of rape from the time they report through to post court procedure trauma. If rape cases so rarely come before the court and from those that do so few achieve a prosecution, perhaps we need a department that recognises this and provides support right the way through the process.

To my knowledge I know one victim of rape only. She was raped 10 years before I met her. She would still break down regularly because of it, she worked alongside her regular job to support victims of rape but she herself needed more than a shoulder to cry on. It has horrible long term effects. It is a terrible terrible thing to do to someone.

NarkedPuffin Fri 04-May-12 11:57:40

There was a comment on the other thread that is really worth repeating:

NorfolkNChance
'This idea of women being in a constant state of consent really concerns me. Unless we explicitly say no we are up for anything.'

NarkedPuffin Fri 04-May-12 12:02:04

Some people seem to have distorted the 'No means no' message in their tiny minds to such an extent that they actually believe it isn't rape unless the woman says no - unconscious people CAN'T SAY NO. IT IS STILL RAPE.

Sex is something that requires active consent.

^ Exactly what Puffin said ^

Exactly what NorfolkNChance said. The emphasis needs to be placed on proving that consent was given not proving that there was no consent.

EauRouge Fri 04-May-12 12:17:28

Yes yes, I hate the way that some people think you have to literally say 'no' for it to be rape. It should be 'no until we say yes', not the other way around.

BasilEatsFoulEggs Fri 04-May-12 12:19:56

That's my reservation about that slogan NarkedPuffin. That it assumes No - it puts the onus on a woman, who may be scared, socialised to be polite, unbelieving that this is happening to her, to make sure a man doesn't rape her "by accident" instead of putting the onus on a man not to rape a woman "by accident" by ensuring that she actually wants him in her body. The onus should be on the person who is bigger and stronger and about to enter another person's body , to ensure that he's welcome there.

Here's a blog post about the reality of No which I think says it all:

fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/

Liskey Fri 04-May-12 12:32:49

I believe her

and thats a very good letter MNHQ.

AllOverIt Fri 04-May-12 14:00:34

I believe her

CuppaTeaAndAJammieDodger Fri 04-May-12 14:06:13

If the action of intoxicating a woman to such an extent that she is incapable of making a rational decision exempts a man from being found guilty of rape then that is surely giving men who are that way inclined carte blanche to ply any woman he desires with alcohol (or other substances) until she is at his mercy, or hunt out women who have themselves become drunk enough to be preyed upon.

Those women out there who have commented along the lines of "sounds like a normal one night stand" have an incredibly warped perspective on what is right and wrong, and sound themselves vulnerable for this type of abuse as a result.

I believe you,

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 04-May-12 14:30:15

I think the no means no message needs to change. It's been taken too literally for years now.

No does mean no but not saying no does not always mean yes, unless the woman actively says yes or likewise or is actively participating in the act then not saying yes or no also means no.

There are many reasons a woman may not say no. Fear of further violence, shock, lack of consciousness or inabilty of coherent speech owing to alcohol/medical reasons, simply not being able to find the words/power of speech because of what is happening etc.

TheRhubarb Fri 04-May-12 14:40:21

There are men who get just as blotto on a night out and yet they aren't in fear of being raped.

I believe her.

BasilEatsFoulEggs Fri 04-May-12 15:40:48

Originally, No means No was part of a wider slogan:

Yes means yes, No means no
However we dress,
Wherever we go

The yes means yes bit has been well and truly dropped, hasn't it?

MyDogShitsShoes Fri 04-May-12 16:40:35

That's exactly the message I was trying to tweet the other day.

It isn't consensual because she didn't say no. It's rape because she didn't say yes.

I also tried too drunk to say no = too drunk to say yes

Apparently that means that "in my eyes that must mean that most of the population has been raped at some point then".

I managed to silence him with a reply of it's nothing to do with my eyes, it's the law. It's also basic human morality.

Funnily enough even an mra didn't have a comeback to that one.

Seriously though, the views of these people are both terrifying and unbearably sad in equal measure.

When did it become presume yes unless she says no? It's just heart breaking.

Smellslikecatspee Fri 04-May-12 17:01:54

Hi I don't know if any of you have an app called Flipboard? It's very USA based, but the I Believe You campaign is currently one of its cover stories. The word is getting out there!

One warning the Page does lead to a You tube page about a photo project that maybe triggery but is vey moving.

CherryBlossom27 Fri 04-May-12 17:03:38

I really hope that the letter to the PFA is noted and they actually remove Ched Evans from this honours list.

Football is basically the national sport in this country and footballers are in a position of responsibility whether they like it or not as they are heroes to many. They need to set an example and be good role models.

Rape is a very serious crime and it needs to be acknowledged. I can't understand why it is not always seen as such in the UK. There are so many myths about rape, it really needs to be brought to people's attention again.

I also think it would be hugely beneficial to have some sort of education about this in schools so that teenagers know what is right from wrong and if they ever do become victims of this crime they know there is support. They also need to be advised on how to look after themselves e.g. Not accepting drinks from strangers. It may seem over the top, but looking at the statistics, if so many people are victims of this crime then we need to be educating kids to help them avoid this.

ifeellove Fri 04-May-12 17:04:55

I believe her

Longtallsally Fri 04-May-12 17:15:20

I've just sent a blistering reply to Roy Belcher/Nick Clegg for that awful reply, saying that Mr Elvish has no right to apologise for the offence I take at his comments - they were offensive and need to be retracted in full. The Libdems had a real opportunity to speak out now and say that Mr Elvish's comments were totally unacceptable and so is anything that anything which tries to make excuses for what happened, and they have blown it.

I really welcome this 'campaign' - it is more than time to stand up and be counted on this issue, and for women everywhere to be able to speak out loud and clear. Also welcome the reminder above that we can all contribute something to Rape Crisis too. Will be sending off a donation.

kipperandtiger Fri 04-May-12 17:41:52

A one night stand?? - I believe when one has a one-night stand, one is entitled to choose who she has it with. The victim was pounced upon by two random men.

This isn't an e-mob; nobody is bombarding Mr Evans' email or Facebook account or crashing any websites at parliament or the football clubs. We are voicing our opinions peacefully and in an orderly manner.

kipperandtiger Fri 04-May-12 17:42:51

Typo : "who she has it with" should read "whom he or she has it with".

FeakAndWeeble Fri 04-May-12 18:25:24

Just had a response from Mr Belcher:

Thank you for contacting us regarding the comments made by Liberal Democrat council candidate Liam Elvish on Facebook about the Ched Evans case.

I would like to make it absolutely clear that the party does not agree with the views expressed by Mr Elvish. It is completely inappropriate and damaging to make light of offences such as rape. He has now recognised his mistake and has apologised for his remarks.

However, the Liberal Democrats take comments like these very seriously. The local party will be looking into these comments and will take appropriate further action.

Thank you once again for making us aware of your concerns on this matter.

Kind regards

DH also emailed last night and he's had exactly the same answer. We are hmm at receiving stock, mass produced responses.

I am also not happy with the assertion that Mr Elvish has apologised for his remarks. He didn't. He apologised if he offended anyone but qualified this 'apology' by stating that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.

Not impressed.

grimbletart Fri 04-May-12 18:53:10

Elvish came bottom of the poll in his ward - a derisory 100 votes. Still 100 too many. Can only assume he has a lot of relatives - who else would vote for a twat like that?

Can't make the link work for some reason, but here are the figures.

Candidate Votes
Conservative Elaine Still 900
Independent Jo Walke 735
Labour Ann Chapman 183
Liberal Democrat Liam Elvish 100
Rejected ballots 8

Turnout 1926
Conservative hold

SardineQueen Fri 04-May-12 19:15:56

Good.
Now he needs to apologise and get removed from their candidate list.

UniPsychle Fri 04-May-12 20:13:25

I believe her.

Puffinsaresmall Fri 04-May-12 21:29:26

"This was a disgraceful verdict. So much for British justice. Ched has played brilliantly this season. Could anyone genuinely guilty of rape perform their job to such a high standard, especially one in the public eye? No way! Most people would hide away. Lets hope the appeal is successful and justice is finally done".

^^ from someone on the 'free ched evans' fb page. So they are conflating being able to play football well with whether you are a rapist or not?hmm Beggars belief it really does angry

#Ibelievehere

SardineQueen Fri 04-May-12 21:34:52

Good GRIEF

Are these people in possession of a standard human brain?
And not one that was destined for some sewer amoeba or similar?

BasilEatsFoulEggs Fri 04-May-12 21:44:52

It says something about the education system in this country, that people can write something so utterly devoid of critical thinking.

It's so randomised - you can't be a rapist if you're good at football. What a very odd idea. What else can you not be a rapist if you're good at? Cooking? Ski-ing? Carpentry? And what's the scientific connection between whatever it is you're good at and that meaning that you can't be a rapist?

Do these people really believe this, or are they just dumbing down to bond with their peers? If they really believe it, tbh you have to feel a bit sorry for them, the world must be an extraordinarily confusing place for them. They must anticipate all sorts of connections that just don't exist and go through life in a fog of incomprehension.

NarkedPuffin Fri 04-May-12 21:58:31

Where have all these extra Puffins come from?

Jolyonsmummy Fri 04-May-12 22:46:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sylview Fri 04-May-12 23:40:23

Jolyonsmummy this is what Daily Mail reported at the time "that before Evans became involved, McDonald got up and closed the curtains because a 'couple of lads' were watching through the window. ".

perfectstorm Sat 05-May-12 01:54:37

sylview, perhaps you should rely on more reputable news sources, as it might aid your understanding of matters. The Daily Mail famously described the scene and then quoted reactions on the spot from numerous sources when initially reporting that Amanda Knox's appeal had failed. It had succeeded. They made things up.

One of "the lads" was Ched Evans' own brother, and they claimed they were invited to join in by Macdonald. This is from contemporaneous legal reporting in the Guardian: Evans told police he went to the Premier Inn with his brother Ryan Roberts and "associate" Jack Higgins after he received a text from McDonald saying he had "got a bird". He claimed that after entering the hotel room, McDonald said: "Join in."In interview, McDonald told police that when he met the woman she asked him where he was going and told him she was going with him. He said she had not appeared to be drunk but admitted that others watched through the window.Philpotts said that while the attack happened Jack Higgins and Roberts had watched through a window. Video recordings found on Higgins's phone showed that he had been filming or trying to film the incident.

It's interesting that Macdonald denied she appeared drunk to police, because the Premier Inn receptionist testified that he was so concerned about her level of drunkeness that when he left he asked her to be aware that the girl in the room needed an eye kept on her.

"A receptionist at the hotel described the woman, who was 19 at the time and worked in a restaurant, as "extremely drunk" and said she was "stumbling" and "slurring" and occasionally grabbing hold of McDonald to steady herself.

The receptionist said he saw the two men who were waiting outside watching what was happening in the room through the window.

Afterwards, McDonald came through to reception and said: "You know that girl I was with? Keep an eye on her. She's sick." Philpotts said: "He knew how intoxicated the complainant was, dangerously intoxicated, so that she needed to be kept under observation for her own safety."

So yes, they did know. They were invited, they were involved. They are to an extent culpable.

This whole thing is depressingly redolent of a film called The Accused. It seems sod all has changed in 20 years.

Alcina Sat 05-May-12 03:14:33

FormSquare, I'm interested that you said this: "Rape cases are such an issue that, quite frankly, the Police MUST be absolutely sure that they are doing the right thing."

Because, you know, in this case the police were "absolutely sure" they were "doing the right thing". That's why the police put the case forward for prosecution.

And, you know what? The police believed her. The CPS believed her. The jury believed her. And a big pile of people here believe her.

I believe her.

sylview Sat 05-May-12 09:12:40

Perfectstorm The daily mail account is taken from the questioning of the defendants and appears also on the BBC and several other online papers. The Guardian article is taken from the prosecutors case. The Guardian does not seem to have covered the defendants case as there is no article between the one you quoted and the verdict that comes up on their online search which I find strange.

perfectstorm Sat 05-May-12 09:28:28

You're ignoring two facts:

1) "two lads watching" does not reflect the fact that both were invited and one was the convicted rapist's brother
2) Evidence from the receptionist is not somehow solely prosecution evidence. It is witness evidence.

Though given your earlier comments, I'm not really interested in debating this (or indeed any other subject, now or in the future) with you. My time for rapist's apologists is exceedingly limited.

perfectstorm Sat 05-May-12 09:29:55

Oh - and citing SOLELY THE CONVICTED RAPIST'S OWN WORDS in your comment, without even acknowledging that that is what you are doing in that comment... words fail me. He was convicted. That means the jury did not believe him. Do you understand that?

geekette Sat 05-May-12 09:51:24

sylview in a million years, there is no way, someone picks up a drunk and calls his/her friends over to share sexual activity with the drunk and it is ok. Curtains or no curtains.

Consent may have been given to the original person who picked the drunk up. Questionable at best but that consent does not transcend down a phone line unless the drunk is the one making the call or is screaming down the line for group sex as well...

I know you don't want your daughter going out and getting drunk. But excusing a rapist and thereby, letting a rapist go free to protect your daughter is absolutely one of the most dangerous acts a mother can commit.

Your daughter is a sheffield fan. She needs to know that what those boys did was absolutely bang out of order! She needs to learn not to drink herself into a stupor but she also needs to learn that the people she looks up to are also human and they do do stupid things to and have to face the consequences.