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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8118828.stm
I am in two minds about this decision. I have always thought that the Jewish school referred to in the decision was standing on very shaky ground on their admissions criteria. I understand that the Jewish faith is passed down by the mother but I have never felt this was an acceptable use of the admissions criteria. Basing admissions on the practise of faith rather than matrilineal birthright seems to be a 'fair' way of assessing admissions, although I do understand that it is difficult to assess.
I do agree that they should not be allowed to base admissions on whether or not a childs mother was born into the Jewish faith as opposed to a practising Jew, however the article states:
<It was clear that Jews constituted a racial group defined principally by ethnic origin and additionally by conversion.
To discriminate against a person on the ground that they were or were not Jewish was therefore to discriminate on racial grounds.
"The motive for the discrimination, whether benign or malign, theological or supremacist, makes it no less and no more unlawful."
They said: "The refusal of JFS to admit M was accordingly, in our judgment, less favourable treatment of him on racial grounds.>
I find this quite troubling since I don't believe Judaism is an ethnicity. It is faith practised by millions of people across the world, many of whom have very little in common in terms of language and cultural practise - such as the divisions between the Sephardi and Ashkenazi communities across Europe.
I think its only using the kind of racial theory that Informed Nazism that you can define a faith group which might have an ethnicity associated with it solely as an ethnicity buys into the discourse of racism. I find it very troubling that we are still circumscribed by the discourse of Jew=race and not Judaism as a faith.
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Jewish schools admissions declared unlawful. |
(69 Posts) |
cantfindafreenickname : there's a new Jewish school, JCoSS, opening in East Barnet - and it gives priority to Jewish children denied entry to other Jewish schools. In other words, your kids would be top of the list.
I see myself as ethnically Jewish and I go to a reform synagogoue for my children's sake and for the communal aspects. But i don't really believe in any of it.
I went to JFS and most of the kids were completely non-religious. The orthodox bit used to annoy me but apart from Jewish Studies lessons, you didn't really notice it.
The worst part of Jewish schools is that Jewish people in the UK are very homogenous and you're not mixing with any kids who don't look like you. Hardly reflects London life. For that reason, I think it's sad that there's also Sikh and Hindu state schools now.
That said, I'm completely hypocritical because I'd totally send my kids to JFS if they didn't get into any other good schools or I couldn't afford private. The education there is first class - but we better join a synagogoue jsut in case because they obviously can't rely on their luck that I happen to be Jewish to get in now (quite right too I think) [hmmm]
I see myself as ethnically Jewish and I go to a reform synagogoue for my children's sake and for the communal aspects. But i don't really believe in any of it.
I went to JFS and most of the kids were completely non-religious. The orthodox bit used to annoy me but apart from Jewish Studies lessons, you didn't really notice it.
The worst part of Jewish schools is that Jewish people in the UK are very homogenous and you're not mixing with any kids who don't look like you. Hardly reflects London life. For that reason, I think it's sad that there's also Sikh and Hindu state schools now.
That said, I'm completely hypocritical because I'd totally send my kids to JFS if they didn't get into any other good schools or I couldn't afford private. The education there is first class - but we better join a synagogoue jsut in case because they obviously can't rely on their luck that I happen to be Jewish to get in now (quite right too I think) [hmmm]
surely if JFS base the criteria on membership of an orthodox synagogue then that would do the job. The orthodox synagogue would do the selection process for them !!
incidentally, JFS once refused entry to someone whose mother converted to judaism in ISrael and whose conversion was recognised by the Chief Rabbi of Israel. Apparently the child wasn't jewish enough for them.
but what really pees me off, is that because my own mother converted in the reform synagogue, my children are denied access to most jewish schools. This is despite the fact that we practise the jewish faith. we only have access to one local school that recognises us as jewish yet come admission application time and all of the "orthodox recognised" jewish families join the reform synagogue to get the places.
The distinction that is being made between Jews of different synagogues in this country is tearing the religion apart. Now that this ruling has happened we need to take note and take a warning and unify as one religion.
incidentally, JFS once refused entry to someone whose mother converted to judaism in ISrael and whose conversion was recognised by the Chief Rabbi of Israel. Apparently the child wasn't jewish enough for them.
but what really pees me off, is that because my own mother converted in the reform synagogue, my children are denied access to most jewish schools. This is despite the fact that we practise the jewish faith. we only have access to one local school that recognises us as jewish yet come admission application time and all of the "orthodox recognised" jewish families join the reform synagogue to get the places.
The distinction that is being made between Jews of different synagogues in this country is tearing the religion apart. Now that this ruling has happened we need to take note and take a warning and unify as one religion.
Thunderduck I think people who convert to Judaism are Jewish. (And often more Jewish than those who are born into it!!)
In this case what defines them as Jews is their religion, as opposed to non-religious Jews who are Jewish by ethnicity or cultural identity.
In this case what defines them as Jews is their religion, as opposed to non-religious Jews who are Jewish by ethnicity or cultural identity.
And where does that leave converts to Judaism Seriouscat?
Chaya - with all respect - this country is so far removed from a christian country as its possible to be.
True Christians are raised above the bonds of culture and race, it is not important, what is important is the unity of the body of Christ - based on the truth of the Bible and not mans traditions.
True Christians are raised above the bonds of culture and race, it is not important, what is important is the unity of the body of Christ - based on the truth of the Bible and not mans traditions.
Oh and the school was being ridiculous! And discriminatory.
I have an issue with faith schools on the whole - so I expect to be unimpressed with their behaviour - but this is by far the worst I've heard yet!
I have an issue with faith schools on the whole - so I expect to be unimpressed with their behaviour - but this is by far the worst I've heard yet!
I think that cultural identity is a sensible way of describing being Jewish, and preferable to race or religion.
Interestingly, my father (who is a complete atheist, but obsessed with Jewish history) told me something interesting ages ago. Apparently they have found with DNA studies that all Jews: ashkenazi, sephardim, mizrahi, etc., are genetically linked and descended from common Middle Eastern ancestors. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew#Genetic_studies Despite being in Europe for thousands of years, European Jews are genetically distinct from non-Jewish Europeans. So - I suppose you could say it is an ethnicity too. (race is a loaded and provocative word)
HerBeatitudeLittleBella much like you described: My family was completely non-religious going back generations... but I still see myself as Jewish. Why? It was our family's cultural identity - if not religious one. Plus, it's in my looks, it's in my mannerisms, and importantly, it's in my family history, (particularly as a decendent of holocaust survivors). When my non-Jewish friends question why I say I'm Jewish (knowing I'm not religious), and I am often unable to articulate exactly why I feel that I am.
Interestingly, my father (who is a complete atheist, but obsessed with Jewish history) told me something interesting ages ago. Apparently they have found with DNA studies that all Jews: ashkenazi, sephardim, mizrahi, etc., are genetically linked and descended from common Middle Eastern ancestors. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew#Genetic_studies Despite being in Europe for thousands of years, European Jews are genetically distinct from non-Jewish Europeans. So - I suppose you could say it is an ethnicity too. (race is a loaded and provocative word)
HerBeatitudeLittleBella much like you described: My family was completely non-religious going back generations... but I still see myself as Jewish. Why? It was our family's cultural identity - if not religious one. Plus, it's in my looks, it's in my mannerisms, and importantly, it's in my family history, (particularly as a decendent of holocaust survivors). When my non-Jewish friends question why I say I'm Jewish (knowing I'm not religious), and I am often unable to articulate exactly why I feel that I am.
To add: I agree with your cultural identity terminology, eminently sensible.
onagar not quite sure what gave you the impression that I didn't "understand" the thread. I read the link with interest, then saw your comment (amongst others):
"well it would help if Jewish people called themselves Israeli or something because the same word is also used to speak of their ethnic origin."
Chaya at 16:44:20 responded to this much more eloquently than I did, but I'll take it on the chin that I have been a tad childish in my response. It got my goat at the time.
SGM I agree with the judgement FWIW, although I do think it is problematic that the judges should find that "Jews constituted a racial group defined principally by ethnic origin and additionally by conversion". Let's say you are an indigenous Papuan, you don't suddenly become part of the Jewish ethnic group because you convert to Judaism. But your children should be eligible to attend a Jewish school providing they too are following the Jewish religion, and they shouldn't be discriminated against because they aren't ethnically Jewish. Just my opinion.
"well it would help if Jewish people called themselves Israeli or something because the same word is also used to speak of their ethnic origin."
Chaya at 16:44:20 responded to this much more eloquently than I did, but I'll take it on the chin that I have been a tad childish in my response. It got my goat at the time.
SGM I agree with the judgement FWIW, although I do think it is problematic that the judges should find that "Jews constituted a racial group defined principally by ethnic origin and additionally by conversion". Let's say you are an indigenous Papuan, you don't suddenly become part of the Jewish ethnic group because you convert to Judaism. But your children should be eligible to attend a Jewish school providing they too are following the Jewish religion, and they shouldn't be discriminated against because they aren't ethnically Jewish. Just my opinion.
I don't actually believe in categorising people by 'race'. I think once we start to identify people by race we are already working within a racial discourse that presupposes the inherent superiority or inferiority of specific groups. The word ethnic has now replaced the word race in general discourse without looking at why the word race is problematic. Ethnicity assumes a common genetic heritage as opposed to the practise of identity which is why I use cultural identity.
The prevalence of the genetic mutation of Tay-Sachs occurs in 3 specific groups : Ashkenazi, French-Canadian, and Cajun [Louisiana]. Yet, we talk about Tay-Sachs as a 'Jewish' disease when it isn't genetically. It doesn't occur in Jewish people of Sephardi descent. It isn't associated with Jewish communities in Israel who aren't descended from the Ashkenazi It is specific to people of Eastern European Jewish descent. [Since the genetic testing was developed in the 1970s, T-S has been almost eradicated especially amongst descendants of the Ashkenazi]
The prevalence of the genetic mutation of Tay-Sachs occurs in 3 specific groups : Ashkenazi, French-Canadian, and Cajun [Louisiana]. Yet, we talk about Tay-Sachs as a 'Jewish' disease when it isn't genetically. It doesn't occur in Jewish people of Sephardi descent. It isn't associated with Jewish communities in Israel who aren't descended from the Ashkenazi It is specific to people of Eastern European Jewish descent. [Since the genetic testing was developed in the 1970s, T-S has been almost eradicated especially amongst descendants of the Ashkenazi]
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