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Here - this has been a majorly divisive issue in France for well over a decade - I remember covering 'La Guerre des Foulards' in my French A Level...

I would really like a reasoned debate about this. Whereas I do think that in many instances it equates to the subjugation of women, surely in many others it is a personal choice and outward statement of faith? I am personally uncomfortable with the idea of an outright ban - despite feeling that a significant number of women who wear the burqa may in fact prefer not to if given a free choice.

I would just like to hear some people's views to advance my own perception of the subject really.

<<drums fingers on desk>>

Just me that's interested in this then?

There was a recent debate about this, after Matthew parris wrote an article in The Times that the burka and covering one's face (for women) was a social/cultural issue rather than a religious one citing that women in Syria/Iran were more lax than some other countries (am happy to be corrected on this summary...)

It just seems that if one is going to say a woman has freedom, then surely that freedom extends to making a decision about how they wish to express their religious belief, even if it goes against the culture.

For instance, I wear a LA Dodgers baseball cap and no one here gets baseball

Good for him. Although it is a bit tricky, seeing a man telling women what they can wear...

It's hellishly complicated. How do you factor in personal freedom to dress as you wish, v. personal freedom not to be made to wear something that your family may wish to enforce against your will, v. the wider impact on society?

Wonder how many women would be bloody glad if France did ban the burqa so it wasn't something that could be forced on them, and how many would be pissed off that they couldn't wear one?

Islam as a religion appears to be in favour of individuals limiting their behaviour for the good of society as a whole... so why not apply this to the issue of wearing a burqa in Western countries, i.e. don't do it?

Aha - good point ilovemydog (how are you by the way ) I actually didn't click on that thread because the title annoyed me ('please uncover your face' iirc) so I guess that shows me something else about my deepest feelings on this.

I suppose the thing is that these women are caught behind a religious culture that may dictate that they don a burqa and the western culture which dictates that they may not. It sucks all round, really.

Is forcing women not to wear it any better than forcing them to wear it?

Of course it is, because there are so many different things you can wear that are not burqas.

So there is clearly the freedom to wear anything that's not a burqa is a greater freedom than being forced to wear one.

No, because anyone who is being forced to wear one will simply either be taken out of the country or made to stay wearing it where no one can see. Those who choose to wear it are forced not to or forced to move.

It will not help those women who are made to wear it.

I kind of get the argument about the headscarves in school - as France is a secular society then religious symbols are arguably not appropriate in that setting, but the wearing of a burqa outside of an institution, in every day life, it is a bloody great step to say 'oi, no, you can't wear that'.

On the other hand I have personally known several muslim women who have come to the UK from the middle east and North Africa and have been pleased to take off their headscarves after just a few days here, so I can see it goes both ways.

I am personally not bothered by women wearing burqas if they want to - but how do you establish if it is an imposition or a personal demonstration of faith?

The choice thing is just one of several reasons they might be banned. It was said on a recent thread (by a muslim) that it could and often was the equivalent of a sign saying "non muslim men keep away!"

After all 'everyone knows' that non muslim men are savages that have to be kept at a distance.

Muslim isn't a race, but the nearest example I can think of would be white women wearing a sign that meant "black men keep away" which would not be acceptable.

It's also a slap in the face to people who are deaf since it prevents them lipreading.

There is also this nonsense about being able to go through customs, collect children from school and other situation where ID is important while wearing a mask.

Agreed, hellishly tricky. I do find it quite offensive on a blisteringly hot day to see a man in cool shorts and tee-shirt, while wife is wearing heavy thick hot black robe from head to foot.
No problem with headscarves.

Message withdrawn

any state that believes itself to be a liberal democracy couldn't really in good conscious 'order' their citizens to wear or not wear anything. Even if they are an oppressed people like many women in Islam.

They could start debate about it though. And keep doing so. Until the message begins to get through and a reformation of sorts begins to happen. But after what's happend in Iran, a massive part pf which is all due to educating women and freeing women from domestic bondage, and especially depending on what does happen - revolution or no - the powers that be may become more conservative.

Whatever happens, women in Islam, the ones who cannot choose rather than those minority who can, could very well be democracy's 5th column - Just how we enable them to liberate themselves is another question altogether.

in good consciousness order their..too many typos, I know...

I just wish the women would do it themselves and burn the burkas, and not have to be told by someone with Small Man Syndrome

I hear you, Riven, but aren't you a teeny bit swayed by the argument that the state is actually giving a message to women that their husbands will not be able to tell them how to dress (or rather to prevent anyone else seeing how they dress)?

I really don't know about this one. From which direction is the greater risk of subjugation coming from? Like MrsGuy says, hellishly tricky.

agree with MT and Riven. Whatever one's feelings about gender politics etc and burqa, I doubt an enforced ban is the way to go about things.

We talked a lot about this over the weekend. When we were driving home last night, we concluded that in fact we wished the burqa were obligatory for all those who failed our rigorous "appearance police" test

BA I do admit to occasionally looking a bit like this ---> when I say hello to the ladies who wear their burqas where I work, when I am having a particularly bad hair day or being treated to a mahoosive spot... but I guess that this is essentially trivialising a very serious issue.

I think we were so bored of this debate (as you can imagine, living in France and being a dual-religion household this is hardly the first time that the subject has been debated fast and furiously and got quite heated ) that we were looking for an elegant solution

Women should be free to wear the burka (or niqab, or headscarf) if they want.
And I should have the freedom to say that I think such traditions are offensive to women and have no place in a civilsed society.
I do occasionally feel under social, not to say legal, pressure to refrain from voicing the latter opinion, which I shouldn't.
Those concerned with freedom shouldn't be restricting cultural expression - they should be promoting the rights of those of us who want to criticise those cultural practices.

i think it's quite a divisive item of clothing. It creates an artificial barrier (intentionally or otherwise) between the wearer and the non-wearer.

As a species, i think we have a collective duty to break down barriers, encourage communication and shared values between different ethnic and religious groups to make the world a more peaceful place; the burka is a physical and psychological barrier to that end because all 90% of communication is non-verbal

Plus, it's not even a religious item of clothing, it's a cultural item originating in Saudi Arabia and associated in the popular imagination, and often in reality, with extremist islam (the kind that doesn't believe a woman has the right to chose what she wears, and so threatens the very values opponents of Sarkozy's proposal would seek to protect) rather than more progressive, moderate muslims, in the same way that the balaclava is now associated mainly with terrorism and violence in northern ireland and britain.

If we were to move to an Islamic country we would be expected to assimilate with their ways and customs, not walking down the street with everything hanging out, so why should foreigners settling in another country not be expected to blend in with the ways and dress?

If you want to be on the outside then don't emmigrate to a non muslim country.

Fair point, sonic, but some of the women who have adopted the burqa in the UK were born here - seems to be a political act, a protest against Bush n Blair and that era. The whole 'axis of evil' invasion of Iraq etc. etc. etc. I can see their point, I just wish they would make it without wearing clothing that represents the subjugation of women. Even if they are subverting it.