Shannon Matthews Mother arrested !!!!!

(1003 Posts)
kay1981 Mon 07-Apr-08 09:22:21

They have arrested her on perverting the course of justice - which i think means lying to the police under oath doesnt it?

Is it at all possible that they knew where she was all the time?

Perhaps cahnnel 4 should now re-show the documentary on shannons family and see how it is received knowing what we know.

kay1981 Mon 07-Apr-08 09:22:57

Doh - CHANNEL 4

scanner Mon 07-Apr-08 09:24:33

I sky+'d the documentary and then didn't watch it because I thought it would be too depressing. I wish I had now.

It looks very fishy.

edam Mon 07-Apr-08 09:24:54

blimey. This case gets curiouser and curiouser.

Callisto Mon 07-Apr-08 09:29:36

She probably lied about her boyfriend's whereabouts. I can't imagine she knew where Shannon was hidden - although it speaks volumes that she hasn't been allowed any contact with her daughter since she was found, and doesn't seem bothered about not seeing her.

Callisto Mon 07-Apr-08 09:30:43

In fact I wonder if Shannon had refused to see her? (madly speculating here obviously)

BetteNoir Mon 07-Apr-08 09:31:20

I saw on BBC24 at 2am that a 32 year old woman had been arrested, and wondered if it was Shannon's mother.

Pennies Mon 07-Apr-08 10:27:15

I understand that from quite early on there has been the suspicion amongst the police that the whole abduction was a set up. The suggestion is that they were hoping that a fund Find Madeleine one would generate some ££.

Poor kids. Though in some way I can't help but feel that this situation is perhaps the best thing that's happened to them because it might get them somewhere better. sad

kay1981 Mon 07-Apr-08 10:30:11

Pennies - yeah, i think thats what the "abductor" told the police, that they set it up, hoping to get £1 million like the mccanns. sad for those kids though.

Twinkie1 Mon 07-Apr-08 10:30:57

DH mentioned that he thought this was a money making exercise from the off - now he is being all 'Told You So!'

Thought the documentary on Channel 4 was incredible - I can't believe people live like that to be honest - but I have never been to a sink estate - it is so sad for those children - they need somewhere warm and safe and clean, somewhere with boundaries and love and affection not somewhere used as a doss house by all and sundry with people loafing around and smoking and stuff near them - appalling!

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 10:31:49

I wonder if she will be demonised to the same extent as Maxine Carr now.

Greyriverside Mon 07-Apr-08 10:37:34

Any time someone says "oh I have had a terrible tragedy, this is where to send me money - we accept cash, paypal and all major credit cards" they stop getting any sympathy from me and I start looking for how they arranged it.

tiredemma Mon 07-Apr-08 10:41:35

I watched the documentary on Ch4 ( which was almost like watching a car crash in slow motion) and immediatly picked up on the obsession with the McCanns etc.

The Mccanns sent them a message of congratulations when Shannon was found and stated that it had enhanced their faith in finding their own daughter. For that alone I find the actions of the Matthews family abhorrent ( if all this specualtion is true of course.....)

Callisto Mon 07-Apr-08 10:45:58

It is too bizarre. It is almost beyond belief that a mother would exploit her own child in this way. I haven't really been following the case so these revalations are extraordinary. Poor Shannon.

agree money making exercise is soo sad and the poor children in the family. Although having worked on such estates I can semi understand the desperation when all you do have open to you is to keep trying for money any way you can.
I missed the documentary on ch4 and was gutted as would have liked to have seen it both then and now!!

soapbox Mon 07-Apr-08 10:51:53

Poor child - imagine growing up knowing that your family faked your abduction for money!]

I think it is now perfectly clear why the press weren't touching this story with a barge pole - so much for all the 'press aren't interested in working class families whose kids go missing!'

CrackerOfNuts Mon 07-Apr-08 10:54:16

But Nemo why would they have been that desperate for money just because they live on a rough estate ?

At the end of the day they'd have been getting all they were entitled to i'm sure, and although it isn't alot, other people manage, without having to fake their daughters kidnapping, if that is indeed what they did.

LynetteScavo Mon 07-Apr-08 10:54:51

I thought there was something fishy going on when the mothers 999 call to the police was made public.

NatalieJane Mon 07-Apr-08 10:55:04

The main thing I picked up about the documentary was that on one hand they were saying they didn't get all the money press coverage that the Mccanns got, but then on the other hand they were swearing at the jounalists for being outside the house.

tiredemma Mon 07-Apr-08 10:57:26

How do you mean Lynette?

cracker but where they getting all they were entitled to?
I have known of people to have no idea about CTC and WFTC they knew they could get child benefit but thats it.
I am not saying just because they were on a rough estate as some people on the same estates have more disposable income than we do despite DH working long hard hours.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 07-Apr-08 10:59:14

It is possible I suppose, but even so, you'd think they'd find out if they were missing out rather than fake a kidnapping.

The whole thing is just very weird.

sweetgrapes Mon 07-Apr-08 11:00:07

Dh is going to be unbearable now. He said that it's a money making spin and I pooh poohed and told him off for being so cynical...

Lots of ITYS (I told you so's) coming up. Lemme go bury my head in the sand....

nametaken Mon 07-Apr-08 11:03:37

But if it was a money making scam then what on earth was going to become of Shannon? Would she have been missing forever?

littlerach Mon 07-Apr-08 11:11:59

Has it actually been reported that it is linked to her abduction?

Dh remarked that it may have been linked to the step father's arrest, which I understand is non rleated?

Or have I missed soemthing?

elesbells Mon 07-Apr-08 11:12:07

If the money making scheme is true, I can't understand why it was shannon they used and not one of the younger children who wouldn't of been able to tell them where they've been when they were found - it makes no sense whatsoever to me tbh.

elesbells Mon 07-Apr-08 11:13:27

I thought the same littlerach..

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 11:15:26

i suppose shannon had the best excuse for being out on her own, whereas the little ones would have to have 'gone missing from home'

cosima Mon 07-Apr-08 11:17:44

cracker they are desperate for money because they don't want to live on a rough estate. i work with families like these and i see things which are like victorian britain, not even an exaggerated oliver twist set could come close to the squalor and deprivation that i see. plus living conditions like this exacerbate mental illness and incomprehensible behaviour

Pennies Mon 07-Apr-08 11:18:27

Lynnette - what was the 999 call like then - I never heard it?

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 11:18:54

it's all very dodgy.

The only thing that makes me wonder though is that Karen Matthews said quite early on that she believed that the person who had shannon knew her. Also that someone had taken Shannon to get at her. Surely by doing that she was limiting her chances of anyone throwing money at the family? If they did this as a money-making exercise then it would have been far more benefitial to them to use the paedophile angle?

CrackerOfNuts Mon 07-Apr-08 11:21:51

Fair enough Cosima, but as I said, I do know people who live on sink estates, half my family were brought up on one and are single parent familes etc, and they still wouldn't behave in that way so I don't think that where they live can be blamed entirely.

StripeyMama Mon 07-Apr-08 11:22:04

Eh?????

Where's this idea it was a 'money making scam' come from - have I missed something?

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 11:24:15

yes this is about Shannon's disappearance

"Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice can cover a wide range of actions but one suggestion is that when Shannon first disappeared, Ms Matthews may
have known more about her daughter's whereabouts than she told police."

There was also some speculation in the press yesterday that Karen Matthews was having an affair with the uncle.

Mercy Mon 07-Apr-08 11:27:46

I haven't really been followign the case since the girl was found - it's all rather bizarre tbh.

Tommy Mon 07-Apr-08 11:28:35

I hae tried not to get too interested in thei case TBH but I remember hearing the interview on R4 when Shannon's mum said that someone had done it to try and "get" at her. Te interviewer said "Who do you think has done it?" and the Mum said she didn't know. Presumably, if you thought "someone" had done something like that, you would have a good idea who that might be.

It did make me a bit hmm at the time and I wonder whether the police asked R4 to do the interview in order to find a few more things out.

It's all very sad as they children are the ones who are the centre of it all

So sad.
I only hope it was all for money and that Shannon was unharmed during her 'abduction'.

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 11:30:11

one thing i thought was strange was the fact that karent matthews didnt make the 999 call until the evening. it had been dark for ages and she was due home direct from school, a bit strange to leave it so late.

cosima Mon 07-Apr-08 11:30:45

oh i know that the living conditions aren't the sole problem, they must be very dubious people, what i meant was these awful living conditions harbour such tragedy and its a shame that such appalling conditions still exist, particularly when some people are buying million pound homes

LynetteScavo Mon 07-Apr-08 11:34:39

re the 999 call, I thought it was odd that she didn't call the police earlier, and that she dialed 999, rahter than the police station, but DH doesn't agree with me.

I didn't actually pay much attention to the 999 call, I jsut thought it was an unusual step for the police to take, something they would only have done if they suspected the mother was involved. Pure speculation on my part, though.

soapbox Mon 07-Apr-08 11:35:05

Cosima - I watched the C4 documentary and aside from a bit of dirt and dubious painting schemes, the house was absolutely fine and fit for purpose.

The family had TV, freezers, fridges, computers etc etc

What exactly about these living conditions need to be improved upon? Other than perhaps a bit more cleaning needing to be done (understandable if your child is missing that you might not feel up to it)!

I think it is hugely insulting to people who are poor to even suggest that the fact this family is poor, is in some way mitigating circumstances from faking your own child's disappearance!

tiredemma Mon 07-Apr-08 11:37:59

I have visited families in far, far worser homes than shannons, I am yet to come across anyone, mentally ill or not who would fake their own childs disappearance for financial gain.

Twinkie1 Mon 07-Apr-08 11:44:53

Maybe the mum was having an affair with the uncle and he kidnapped Shannon when she said she didn't want to leave the step dad to be with him?

Or maybe not!

notjustmom Mon 07-Apr-08 11:45:12

Message withdrawn

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 11:45:49

if they had tv and computers they weren't exactly living in poverty were they? hmm.

abouteve Mon 07-Apr-08 11:51:21

The truth will come out soon enough. Its obvious that something is a miss in the family. Just hope the poor child is OK.

I missed the channel 4 programme but its does not sound like the family were living in squalor. Poverty yes as I have read that a child is deemed to be in poverty if the family can not afford school trips and other non essential things that other children can expect hmm.

cosima Mon 07-Apr-08 11:53:22

i'm not justifying what they did at all! I think its totally abhorrent, I'm just lamenting that there is so much tragedy in the world, ..squalor AND people with dubious morals. its just such a sorry state of affairs when this is how people carry on

tiredemma Mon 07-Apr-08 12:09:56

items regarded as necessities by at least two-thirds of adults surveyed for the TV series 'breadline britain 1990's'

- Self contained damp free accom with an indoor toilet and bath

- a weekly roast joint for the family and three daily meals for each child

-two pairs of all weather shoes and an warm waterproof coat

- sufficient money for public transport

- adequate bedrooms and beds

- heating and carpeting

- a refridgerator and washing machine

- enough money for special occasions - ie xmas

- toys for children

Poverty in this programme was defined as people having to live without three or more of the items regarded as 'necessities'.

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 12:13:23

but why, fi they thought they lived in poverty, did they keep adding to the situation by having more kids?

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 12:13:40

If not fi !!

nailpolish Mon 07-Apr-08 12:16:38

people dont always have children because they want to

it can be for a number of reasons - lack of knowledge about contraception/pregnancy

religious reasons

ignorance

Divastrop Mon 07-Apr-08 12:17:22

the only people ive known to live in squalor or poverty(and let their children live that way)are drug addicts and alcoholics,whi spend all their benefit money on their addictions and have nothing left for food and bills.

and only a sick twisted mother would fake her own daughters kidnapping.i dont think being sick and twisted has anything to do with where you come from or how much money you have.

abouteve Mon 07-Apr-08 12:20:31

That list makes sense. I read somewhere that they also included money for school trips. Notice it didnt include mobile phone contracts, plasma tv's and laptops (though I think computers are deemed an necessity nowadays for school children).

More kids mean more benefits and for longer.

Divastrop Mon 07-Apr-08 12:21:20

chocfest-maybe they thought 'great-another kid=more benefit money' and were too thick to realise another kid=more money to pay out?

tiredemma Mon 07-Apr-08 12:22:38

That list was early 1990's though- It would be interesting to see what the population would class as 'necessities' now.

Im sure mobile phones would appear somewhere, aswell as internet.

nailpolish Mon 07-Apr-08 12:24:32

surely mobile phones would not be deemed necessary hmm we didnt have a house phone til i was 12 and we survived

im not sure about computers either tbh

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 12:26:58

yes diva, sounds more like it. Surely she cannot be ignorant of the ways of getting pregnant!! You would begin to ask yourself questions of how it always happens to her and not others!!

If she were religious, I dont know of any religeon that involves the ever increasing speculation that she was in some way involved in her childs alleged abduction.

nailpolish Mon 07-Apr-08 12:28:06

chocfest i wasnt specifcially talking about her

you know, some women dont ahve any choice when it comes to getting pregnant. for lots of reasons. others just dont care

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 12:30:41

soz nailpolish, i was looking at it from her situation

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 12:30:45

computers are not necessary. Most towns have a library with access to the internet. mobile phones definitely not necessary either.

Having grown up in Africa, my definition of what constitutes poverty differs widely from that of most I think.

But agree with chocfest re not continuing to have children. There is no reason why people need to keep having children in this day and age, none. contraception is readily available, presumably Karen Matthews will have been told about contraception at some point after the birth of one of her several children, in fact given that many children she would have been entitled to sterilisation so as not to have to use contraception all her life.

I know some people seem to think they should be allowed to keep on having as many children as they want, but not if they can't afford to pay for them, and the care system is now picking up the pieces they shouldn't.

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 12:32:52

your dead right wannabe, i would loved to have had more children, but financially 3 was our limit, to raise without relying on anyones financial assistance.

tiredemma Mon 07-Apr-08 12:38:07

( I was being sarcastic about the mobiles and internet- could you live without your mnet???)

rebelmum1 Mon 07-Apr-08 12:45:02

what about the child porn they found? I missed this documentary when was it?

JeremyVile Mon 07-Apr-08 12:45:03

Unless we want to live in a society where women (particularly poorer women) have their fertility policed then I think we just have to accept that some will always choose to have children when they cannot afford them.
We are privileged enough to live in a country that can sustain this.

Maybe she just kept having kids because she loved doing so? And if you have been raised with low career/financial expectations then, really, why not keep having kids if thats what you find fulfilling?

I just find it uncomfortable when people who scrape by (because that's what they do, they're not living the life if Riley) are derided as thick/greedy/lazy etc.

Some may be all of those things and more, who knows, but they are also among the least privileged in our society. Bit of an easy target really.

horseshoe Mon 07-Apr-08 12:46:28

I cant see how they were THAT poor. A few days after Shannon went missing they were filmed coming home from shopping and all I could see were crates and crates of lager!

It was at that point I did question the family, rightly or wrongly.

Perverting the course of justice could just mean that she was aware that there was a "monster" within the family and failed to notify police.

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 12:47:11

"We are privilieged to live in a country that can sustain this"

I'm not sure about that bit

JeremyVile Mon 07-Apr-08 12:48:33

But why did you question them HorseShoe?
What has their finances to do with anything?
Because buying beer didn't fit in with the impression you had of them?

JeremyVile Mon 07-Apr-08 12:49:21

What are you questioning? The sentiment or just my dodgy spelling? wink

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 12:49:56

who me?

JeremyVile Mon 07-Apr-08 12:50:56

Yes...

DeeRiguer Mon 07-Apr-08 12:50:57

i dont see that it this crime is anything to do with class..
charles lindbergh anyone?

there are evil feckers, male and female, in every strata of society

where and if it still exists, of course..

horseshoe Mon 07-Apr-08 12:53:31

I just thought for me personally I would be out pounding the streets. Going shopping for that much alcohol would be the last thing on my mind if my DD went missing and insinuates that the family unit was not stable at that moment in time. Looked like they were about to have a PARTY!

Financially my point was that in order to afford that much...they could NOT be scraping the bottom of the barrell as has been suggested. I believe he worked

horseshoe Mon 07-Apr-08 12:55:47

By no means am i suggesting anyone is guilty although we know someone within the family unit is!!! Theres alot more to this case than the press have been given access to and I think the police knew it from the start.

I have never heard of the mother being kept away from a child even if another family memeber has been involved.

nailpolish Mon 07-Apr-08 12:56:27

i agree with horseshoe tbh

if my child was missing id not be at the supermarket. id not be drinking alcohol.

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 12:59:43

not the spelling, did you see how i spelt privilidges!

No, just the bit that this country can sustain it. I dont think it can.

I would much rather my taxes were spent on healthcare, and helping childless couples concieve, the fight against cancer etc,a million other good causes, including getting genuine poverty stricken families the help they deserve.

this is going right off the thread tough i think!

Strange how a story with what seems like a happy ending - Shannon being found alive and well - is now getting worse and worse! It occurs to me that Shannon's youngest sister is now in the unenviable position of having had both her parents arrested. Poor little mites sad

rebelmum1 Mon 07-Apr-08 13:00:52

Wannabe it's not the care system that's picking up the pieces it's us and our tax money. The money that I pay that means I have to work harder and longer hours which means I spend less time with my dd. I'm not having anymore kids because I cannot afford to take the time off work. It's perverse.

fiodyl Mon 07-Apr-08 13:01:41

i agree horseshoe there has to be something very wrong to not even alow supervised contact.
my gut feeling is that shannon has said she doesnt want to see her mother because she is scared of her because she has 'told' police about what really happened

elesbells Mon 07-Apr-08 13:06:27

I thought she has seen her? A couple of days last week it was reported she had been to visit - The day of the stepfathers arrest was one iirc

elesbells Mon 07-Apr-08 13:07:56

*had

Miggsie Mon 07-Apr-08 13:13:45

Do you think Shannon knew of this supposed plot and thought it would be a laugh?
Or has she suffered days of incarceration and then found out her mum was willing to have her stuffed into a divan bed drawer for financial gain?
Either option is really really dire.
It is too terrible to think about.

Once they held Shannon and the mother didn't want/was not allowed to visit: yes, that's when alarm bells ring.

horseshoe Mon 07-Apr-08 13:14:25

It was fleeting visits. She has only previously been able to see her through one way glass.

fiodyl Mon 07-Apr-08 13:22:41

of course the police could have been with holding contact with shannon as a way of trying to get the mother to talk i.e 'tell us the truth and we'll let u see your kid'
kinda nasty tho- think im just suspicious of everyone

nailpolish Mon 07-Apr-08 13:24:20

what a ridiculous thing to say!

ahve you been watching too many Ashes to Ashes

Iklboo Mon 07-Apr-08 13:26:39

And I thought I was being a cynical, nasty piece for thinking the whole 'doing it for the money' angle

fiodyl Mon 07-Apr-08 13:29:34

blush i must remember not to put my strange random thoughts down in text for other people to read in future

wheresthehamster Mon 07-Apr-08 13:33:26

I wonder if those friends and neighbours who rallied round and spoke in the documentary are feeling a bit irked at the moment. hmm

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 13:41:31

“why not keep having kids if thats what you find fulfilling?”. Because she can’t afford them. It really is as simple as that.

But we live in a society where people seem to think they have a right to have whatever they want, whenever they want it, regardless of the cost. Debt in this country is spiralling out of control because people keep borrowing beyond their means. Want a new tv? Don’t have the cash? Never mind, you can always put it on the credit card. So poor you can’t afford a foreign holiday? Never mind, just stick it on the credit card. Can’t afford to pay off the credit card? Never mind, just get a IVA and half the debt will be written off, then you can start all over again. Want another child but can’t afford it? Never mind, just get another credit card.

Some people live beyond their means because their means just can’t keep up with their needs, but some just seem to think that the rest of society should pick up the pieces because they should be as entitled to do what the hell they want as everyone else.

Imo it’s simple, if you can’t afford something you go without. It’s not as if Karen Matthews needed to have 7 children, once she had one she was already in a more fortunate position than someone who is unable to have many. I don’t see why she should keep having more children just because that’s what she wants. I’d love a yacht and a mantion but sadly I can’t have those because <shock horror> I can’t afford them.

chocfest Mon 07-Apr-08 13:42:27

well, if it comes out that all these people are involved in one way or another, I should think they would be bloody fuming, and rightly so.

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 13:56:49

I read an interesting piece on this the other day

here

"At the moment, neighbours “can’t believe” that Craig Meehan is guilty of anything. He must have been fitted up, naturally.That will be for a court to decide.
But if he’s found guilty, don’t be surprised if these same neighbours now professing their shock and support, decide to torch his house."

No1ErmaBombeckfan Mon 07-Apr-08 14:06:39

Am I just imagining things but SM was already in the radar of SS and was about to be taken away from her parents before she went missing...

horseshoe Mon 07-Apr-08 14:08:27

Just a random thought but looking at the step-dad, even though he is young he has a very child-like appearance to him. Cant help wondering if he was himself subjected to some sort of sexual abuse from same uncle as a child and history is repeating himself.

fiodyl Mon 07-Apr-08 14:11:44

yeh i heard she was already on the child protection register- although its not specified what for- children with disabled parents etc can be on it so that ss can keep an/school/docs can kep an extra eye out 4 them

fiodyl Mon 07-Apr-08 14:14:39

thing is if she was already involved with ss, the whole financial gain idea would be even more ludicrous cos her mother would have known she risked losing her children if caught

mousehole Mon 07-Apr-08 14:18:18

if she found having children so 'fulfilling' then why do the majority of them not live with her. Are ANY of the children's relatives working at all - or is the whole extended family on benefits?

Divastrop Mon 07-Apr-08 14:25:45

wannabe-sometimes its not just as simple as 'oh i think ill have lots of kids and live off the taxpayer' though.sometimes relationships fail and when you meet somebody new you may want to have a child with them.she may have believed that every new man was 'the one'.

and not everyone has the option of getting steralised.

fiodyl Mon 07-Apr-08 14:30:19

on more than one occasion ive thought ' if i have another baby now, the council will have to rehouse us'

TwoIfBySea Mon 07-Apr-08 14:31:19

Ah money, when it raises its ugly head there are always going to be people who wonder how they can get their hands on it. Shocked and appalled if it is true but then again I thought the McCann fund was in bad taste. Much more could have been accomplished had people given their money to proper charities who were experts in searching for missing children.

Just like the whole neglect thing, so many people are going to see this and say "well if they can do it!" Sorry state of affairs but not totally unexpected.

Glad that Shannon is out of that situation now though, poor lass.

mousehole Mon 07-Apr-08 14:36:08

...the McCann fund ( I guess) was set up so that the cheques that the money which was given directly to them could be clearly seem as a charitable donation. It would not have been the right decision for the McCanns to hand over the money to other charities when the giver did not wish this..

I think that in the McCanns position they handled the whole thing brilliantly and bravely - I'm sure I couldn't have carried on fighting the police and searching and setting up a charity to deal with the huge donations in the exemplarly way they did. Nothing they have done can ever be considered in 'bad taste' in view.

kay1981 Mon 07-Apr-08 16:49:09

I think the next thing we will be reading is that the Matthews family can not return to Dewsbury for fear of reprisels (sp?). For those who watched the documentary, the two or three young lads in the house were talking about paedophiles - that they should be "strung up and castrated!" and then the police find child pornography on the computer! hmm

I was unsure whether she had been arrested linked to the case of his pornography pictures, but it seems its to do with the disappearance of shannon!

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 17:21:06

“Nothing they have done can ever be considered in 'bad
taste'”. hmm. Personally setting up a “find Madeleine” fund made me lose what little respect I might have had for the Mccanns (and I have little respect for anyone who leaves their three children unattended while they go out to dinner.). This was a couple who earn more than the average person, who are clearly financially well off, and yet who, within weeks of their child going missing had set up a fund for people to give them money! Money which they used to pay the mortgage on their £600000 house shock angry.

In fact I find it most bizarre that anyone caught up in the horror that must surround losing a child in those circumstances would have the capacity to think “oh I know, let’s set up a fund, then the public can give us money to help look for our child.”. If my child went missing I would do everything in my power to find him,I would use every penny I had before going cap in hand to the public.

So no, actually I think everything the Mccanns did is in extremely bad taste.

JeremyVile Mon 07-Apr-08 17:27:04

Jesus. Do you really believe this shite Wannabe?

You are so black and white about things I actually find it hard to tell if you're having us on.

I think the only good thing about this whole sorry situation is that IF Shannon's mother knew where she was the whole time and IF the whole thing was a money making set up then Shannon is probably less likely to have been abused, sexually or physically, although the emotional abuse cannot be overlooked. Shannon and her siblings will now, hopefully recieve the help they need.
As for Madeleine McCann and her parents, I think that leaving their 3 toddlers was abhorrent and stupid but I think that their setting up their find maddie fund was simply the actions of an intelligent and desperate couple, they knew that to have the best chance of finding her they needed publicity and resources, they had the know-how to set these things up. They might be doctors but they may not have had much spare cash, mortgages, pensions, NI, IVF, nursery fees, car payments etc all add up and most of these would have been bought before maddie went missing.

MsHighwater Mon 07-Apr-08 18:29:11

My goodness but there is some awful middle class tripe being spouted on this thread. I'm pretty sure I'm middle class myself but I've been stunned at some of the casual bigotry displayed by some posters.

I wholeheartedly agree with JV's comment way back about being glad that we live in a society that can sustain those people who have more kids than they can afford, or who have different priorities about what to do with what cash they come by. After all, what is the alternative?

I find I am reminded of an edition of Who Do You Think You Are? featuring Jeremy Paxman. He discovered that his female forebear, who lived in Glasgow and was left widowed at an early age with young children and no income, was supported for a time by parish poor relief - the only form of welfare state that existed at the time. Her support, and that of her family, was summarily withdrawn after the board were informed that she had borne an illegitimate child.

That is what the kind of society that can't/won't sustain people with less conventional life choices would look like.

Pennies Mon 07-Apr-08 18:39:33

wannaBe - not wanting to turn this whole thing into another MM debate, but your information is totally wrong. The money that was sent to the McCanns was not asked for. When people are in extreme situations a basic reaction of the public is to try and help in the only way they know how and that is by sending money (and we've seen it before here on MN when some of us have got into difficult situations). That's what happened in this case and public sympathy was so great that the fund is a considerable one.

The Find Madeleine fund money is ringfenced and can only be used for the purposes of finding her - so that includes PR, travel expenses, website maintenance, private detectives etc etc. It is governed by named individuals and has an appointed Fund Administrator to ensure that all transactions are transparent and accountable. To have done anything else with the donations would have been inappropriate. It has not been used for their mortgage.

However, your belief that the donations to the Find Madeleine campaign have been spent for personal uses does go to illustrate that Shannon's mum / stepdad could have felt that they too would receive money which may have been welcome given their financial situation and this could have been a motivation for the whole sorry affair.

donnie Mon 07-Apr-08 18:41:39

some of you are bloody obsessed with this stuff. Weirdos.

mousehole Mon 07-Apr-08 18:46:32

well said pennies smile

mousehole Mon 07-Apr-08 18:54:07

ms highwater - I don't think that the view that 'having more children than you could ever hope to support and relying totally on the state to fund your lifestyle' is simply a middle clss viewpoint.

The subject is far to complex, however, the fault really lies with Shannon's poor education and lack of investment in dewsbury...dating back to the 70's when Shannon's mum was a child when the work ethic began to disappear.

It hard to break the destructive cycle. Its also hard to have a good fair benefits system which doesn't end up destroying the work ethic for some (hopefully the minority).

CrackerOfNuts Mon 07-Apr-08 18:57:57

My mum said that on tv this morning they said that a woman had come forward and said that she was Shannons real mum and not Karen.

Did anyone else see that or did my mum dream it ?

llareggub Mon 07-Apr-08 19:06:31

crackerofnuts...that is truly bizarre

Greyriverside Mon 07-Apr-08 19:21:59

Pennies, are you sure about that? I thought that part of the point WAS to pay their expenses. It says so on the website you know.

Pennies Mon 07-Apr-08 19:40:56

Yes, living expenses whilst he was on unpaid leave. The expenses in detail are specific to monies spent trying to find her, so that includes travel, possible childcare arrangements for the twins etc. I know that the accounts are public at the end of the financial year and I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't be people out there crawling all over the info so I would be gobsmacked if they've spent it on luxuries.

Greyriverside Mon 07-Apr-08 19:47:08

ok ty Pennies

I haven't followed it really, but you can't avoid it entirely.

I did hear some guy Clarance mitchell? was going around claiming they were using it for mortgage payments, but there are always troublemakers. How would he know anyway? who is he?

CrackerOfNuts Mon 07-Apr-08 19:48:09

Tbh I think my mum did dream it, cos I have googled and haven't found one single story relating to that.

lemonstartree Mon 07-Apr-08 19:55:44

just HAVE to put in my 2p's worth here ( and I know that is completely sad)

I SO SO agree with wannaBe about the expectations of individuals who contribute sweet fa to this country's wealth bu expect to have what ever they want,

that is totally totally different to people who become unwell, or are made redundant etc who have worked and contributed.

i would LOVE o see the benefits system seriously tightened up - like in France where welfare is generous for SAHM, the sick and disabled but not available for people worming on the black matrket or 'just arrived' or simply to lazy to work.

and none of this has anything to do with Shannon Matthews. I have no idea what has been going on, all I do know is that a 9 year old child has no responsibility whatever her family has done and I so hope she gets the support, care and love she clearly needs.

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 19:58:49

no some of the fund was definitely used to pay their mortgage.

here

"A month later, they were again forced onto the defensive when Clarence Mitchell, their spokesman, admitted that the fund had been used to fund two mortgage
payments, adding: "The fund has always had the ability to assist the family financially if necessary."".

hmm.

JeremyVile Mon 07-Apr-08 20:01:20

But Wannabe....Why do you care? How can you manage such negativity towards two people you are only aware of due to the disappearance of their child?

Tiggerish Mon 07-Apr-08 20:06:02

Interesting twist to the tale here

moreJellothanJlo Mon 07-Apr-08 20:12:25

Shannon, meanwhile, has made it clear she would rather live with her foster parents and the cat police gave her than go home.
taken from that link

how sad is thatsad

krang Mon 07-Apr-08 20:36:57

Hmmm. Do I want to live in a society where only people who can 'afford' children are allowed to have them?

*thinks for one second*

Christ, no.

Greyriverside Mon 07-Apr-08 20:54:33

Krang I think to myself "what kind of irresponsible person has kids when they know they can't look after them"

Then I think "but hang on. Even people who do their best are often poor just because that's how companies/governments want them to be. Do I think they should be forbidden to reproduce? Of course not!

Tricky isn't it.

krang Mon 07-Apr-08 20:57:29

Not in the least tricky for me.

Having children is the most basic human right we have.

If only people who could 'afford' them could have them, well, that would mean my non-existence for a start.

I sometimes wonder whether people realise what kind of ugly road they are going down when they think that society would actually be better for these kind of fascistic reproductive restrictions.

nancy75 Mon 07-Apr-08 21:03:35

this case doesnt really seem to be about people being able to aford kids, more if they can be bothered to look after them.

i do think that in this case there is good cause for a doctor to at least suggest sterilisation (and no before anyone gets their knickers in a twist i dont mean anybody should be forced in to that decision)
after all this woman is 32, has seven kids (by various dads) does not live with all of her children and seems fairly unable to look after the ones that do live with her.

Divastrop Mon 07-Apr-08 21:11:43

as i said before ,steralisation is not an option for all women.

do we actually know how old the children who didnt live with karen matthews are?

nancy75 Mon 07-Apr-08 21:13:29

on the channel 4 documentary she said she had her first at 20 - so the oldest can only be 12, and i think that 1 lives with her, so younger than 12

lemonstartree Mon 07-Apr-08 21:13:58

Diva -they cant be that old - she is only 32!

TheBlonde Mon 07-Apr-08 21:28:49

link for kids info

SnowieBartFast Mon 07-Apr-08 21:31:31

looking at that link perhaps Shannon just wanted to live with her dad, as that is "what the other children" of her mother's did!
she is only 9 after all.

Kimi Mon 07-Apr-08 21:34:01

It gets worse and worse.

Poor children, I really do think ALL the children would be better off away from these really f*%$^d up and sick adults.

i can't believe she was in on abduction.
looking at her on news.. doubt she woudl be that good an actor

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 21:35:26

So what happened? Did they stage the abduction because they thought they could get a big fund like the McCanns (not dissing the mccanns here, feel v.sorry for them).

Also, Karen was having an affair with a man SHE KNEW HAD ABUSED HER PARTNER!!

WHAT A STRANGE WOMAN.

Kimi Mon 07-Apr-08 21:40:28

I don't think strange is touching the tip of the iceberg, this is a whole bunch of very sick people with not a lot going on up top and very few morals. And by god is there a man that woman has not slept with 7 children by 5 dads (and not raising them) shows she is not really fussy where she gets it.

And in the wake of all this there are 7 children who have gone through god knows what.
I hope they all rot and are never allowed near those children again, otherwise it will just be another lost generation.

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 21:42:29

No-one said that people should be forced into sterilisation. And no-one said that people should be forced not to have any more children if they can’t afford them. However surely there has to be a level of personal responsibility here.

When we have children, it is our responsibility as parents to ensure the welfare of those children, to ensure they grow up in a happy, healthy environment where their needs are met.

So if you’re not in a position to do that, then surely having more children at that point in time is irresponsible. No-one would argue with that, surely?

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 21:43:28

um, where does it state that the uncle abused the partner?

Kimi Mon 07-Apr-08 21:43:34

I have to agree with you wannabe.

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 21:44:44

when i mentioned sterilisation earlier it was as an alternative to contraception. something which the woman has clearly never heard of.

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 21:44:53

I presume by reading this thread that she has been tried and convicted by a jury hmm

Divastrop Mon 07-Apr-08 21:47:36

so sleeping with 5 men in the space of 12 years is immoral ?

i suppose the men she slept with had no choice in the matter,and i assume as the woman,she was responsible for contraception?

nancy75 Mon 07-Apr-08 21:48:54

2shoes, i dont pressume to know if she is guilty of whatever she has been arrested for, but after watching the tv programme that they did i will say that in my opinion the woman is a bad mother. she has children living all over the place, her house was rotten, her kids were filthy and surrounded by people smoking, swearing and ranting about what they would like to do to child molesters her daughter was missing and she didnt seem to give a toss.

Kimi Mon 07-Apr-08 21:49:04

What ever way you look at it these are a bunch of very f*ed up people who do not seem to know how to be parents and have god knows what going on in their lives.

And from the very very off there was something fishy about this whole thing.
I think the only innocent people involved are the poor children, the adults are a bunch of dysfunctional toxic people

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 21:50:19

good point nametaken...

?

Divastrop Mon 07-Apr-08 21:50:36

i never said anything about forced sterilisation either,just that it isnt an option for all women,even if they want it.and maybe she has heard of contraception but it failed?or she wanted a baby with her new partner?

i dont even remember reading that they were on benefits,in fact,didnt craig meehan work?

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 21:51:32

Wannabe, that was reported when Shannon first turned up. Before all this other stuff came out.

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 21:52:27

if she didn't want any more children then yes, she was responsible for contraception. If my dh said he didn't want any more children then it would be down to him to see to it that a pregnancy did not occur. similarly if I decided I did not want to fall pregnant it would be down to me to ensure that did not happen.

And while sleeping with 5 men in 12 years is personal choice, having children by each of those men is questionable imo. In fact, two of the children she refers to as twins because they had the same father shock.

Kimi Mon 07-Apr-08 21:53:00

Worked on the fish counter of a supermaket did'ent he?

Kimi Mon 07-Apr-08 21:53:55

If she wanted her children so much then why do most of them not live with her?

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 21:55:14

Oh god, that's sad and funny about 'the twins'.

Kimi Mon 07-Apr-08 21:56:56

I do feel so sorry for the children but I think the rest of them are vile, nasty people who are not fit to raise phlegm let alone children.

Divastrop Mon 07-Apr-08 21:58:24

i am not standing up for karen matthews,btw,i think the fact that shannon doesnt want to go home and some of the others live with their fathers speaks volumes about the woman.i just have a problem with the general judging that is going on on this threadsad

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 22:00:33

"maybe she has heard of contraception
but it failed?"

7 times? hmm.

I have no idea whether this abduction was faked or not, or whether it was a money-making exercise, or whether she had an affair with the uncle who is aledged to have abused the stepfather. But what is true is that there are 7 children in this, three of whom do not live with their mother - why? the other 4 of whom have now been taken into care. So regardless of whether this woman had anything to do with her daughter's disappearance, she has obviusly played a part in screwing up the lives of 7 children, and for that alone I think she is worthy of judgement.

Pennies Mon 07-Apr-08 22:01:51

Divastrop - isn't your post not even in the teensiweensiest little bit judgemental in itself then? You certainly don't seem to like KM very much.

I love a bit of judgement myself - never understand why people get so het up about it on here.

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 22:05:16

it is human nature to judge.

we all do it. If not on this subject then something else.

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 22:06:37

I think so too. I think she has been far too cavalier bringing children into the World.

If all 7 children did have different Dads but they were all happy, well-behaved and at school, then nobody would be rushing to judge her.

But her life is chaos, and her children are being dragged up.

Pennies Mon 07-Apr-08 22:10:56

Of course it's human nature to judge. Agree with wannaBe at 22:00:33.

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 22:17:03

how strange though that everyone is happy to rip these people to threads. but the mm's are treated like saints.

sleepycat Mon 07-Apr-08 22:18:12

come on! MM parents are nothing like shannons parents are they? No child porn on their computer etc

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 22:18:59

no just left 3 small children alone

sleepycat Mon 07-Apr-08 22:20:24

but it is all very different and IMO impossible to compare the 2 different situations

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 22:22:12

The McCanns made a mistake, but they had not been bad parents over the last 4 yrs.

The media treated the McCanns badly too (at times).

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 22:22:39

i am not comparing the 2 situations just the weirdnest of this thread tbh

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 22:23:45

I certainly don't think the mccanns are saints, in fact have said as much on this thread as well.

but the difference betweeen the mccanns and karen Matthews is that the mccanns neglected their children but were excused because they were seemingly educated/inteligent and because it was done on holiday "everyone does it" (except most don't).

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 22:23:58

What? discussing somebody who is on the news, on the 'In the news' board?

I may be thick but I don't understand the weirdness.

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 22:25:29

Wannabe, I did it. I left my dd in a hotel room in Cornwall. Madness, now I know. I was downstairs in the hotel's restaurant. But still. Can't believe I did it now. Never would again obviously.

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 22:26:23

weird as in how everyone seems to know everything about these people.
from what I have seen on the news they are odd. but then i felt the same about the mccanns.

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 22:27:37

mc but in reality we don't know that do we? They left those three children alone every night of that holiday, how do we know they didn't do the same at home?

IMO the mccanns brought a lot of the media attention on themselves, not through any fault of their own necessarily, but by virtue of the fact they sought to saturate the media so much with their story, that once the media got bored of no news, they went looking for some. If you sup with the devil....

Goodness this thread has taken some odd turns!

MadameCh0let Mon 07-Apr-08 22:32:37

Yes, wannabe, I feel for them, but they were not the first people to lose a child. And when it began to seem as though their child was more important than all the other lost children put together..... well, I guess they should have sensed that they needed to drop their campaign. Not saying I could have faced up to it either, but after about 4 days it was obvious the child wasn't coming back..

Pennies Mon 07-Apr-08 22:42:38

wannBe - I can't help but feel that you're rather expoliting this thread to have a pop at the McCanns which is hardly relevant.

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 22:44:52

I think it is relevant. every one seems so keen to have apop at this family(myabe they deserve it but as no one has been convicted of anything....)
yet with the mccanns everyone was so sorry for them yet they did wrong and neglected their children. but oh that is ok.

didnt the mccann's get some criticism?
they did here
and in the papers
and on street corners

Pennies Mon 07-Apr-08 22:48:07

Of course they got critiscised, but that's done and dusted here. As a Natioanl Sport it's so last season.

We've got a whole new set of negligent parents to judge now.

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 22:48:45

not to this extent
no one has been convicted of anthing yet. but they have been found guilty on here.

VeniVidiVickiQV Mon 07-Apr-08 22:49:07

oh good lord that's not how I remember talk of the McCanns. They were slated, speculated about and demonised all over the place - particularly so on here. Also by the papers - hence The Daily Express having to apologise unreservedly recently for publishing over 100 articles that were based on anything but fact.

The McCanns have faced far more scrutiny if only because their daughter remains missing, nearly a year down the line.

The Shannon Matthews case is certainly unfolding in the most bizarre manner, and all credit to the Police and SS for continuing to support the child(ren) in this matter and trying to do whats best for the children and the children alone. As for all the other stuff - well, I'm going to sit and wait for the charges and subsequent court case before I pass my judgement.

VeniVidiVickiQV Mon 07-Apr-08 22:49:09

oh good lord that's not how I remember talk of the McCanns. They were slated, speculated about and demonised all over the place - particularly so on here. Also by the papers - hence The Daily Express having to apologise unreservedly recently for publishing over 100 articles that were based on anything but fact.

The McCanns have faced far more scrutiny if only because their daughter remains missing, nearly a year down the line.

The Shannon Matthews case is certainly unfolding in the most bizarre manner, and all credit to the Police and SS for continuing to support the child(ren) in this matter and trying to do whats best for the children and the children alone. As for all the other stuff - well, I'm going to sit and wait for the charges and subsequent court case before I pass my judgement.

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 22:49:11

Pennies good post

sleepycat Mon 07-Apr-08 22:51:24

2shoes nobody has been convicted but it was her extended family holding her prisoner and it was her stepfather that had child porn on his computer, these are facts...people are bound to judge them becasue of these facts.

LOOBYLOU2 Mon 07-Apr-08 22:51:40

Back to original point of thread ....
I remember wondering why on earth the police played the 999 call on the news and why it took her so long to call....

2shoes Mon 07-Apr-08 22:52:57

before I go to bed. can someone explain something to me. why is he called her step father as I though he wasn't married to the mum(or did I get that wrong)

wannaBe Mon 07-Apr-08 22:54:19

I think it is relevant.

When Shannon went missing there were a lot of comparisons with the Mccanns in terms of how this was reported. How the press weren't reporting as much because she was from a working class background. When the documentary was made there was a lot of talk of the Mccanns, how they had been given money etc etc. And now the implication (I say implication because nothing has been proven yet) is that this abduction was faked because the family thought that people would give money as they had done to the mccanns.

People see fit to judge this family (me included), and yet when Madeleine went missing people who dared say anything against them were shouted down, told they should be ashamed of themselves for daring to judge a poor innocent family who had lost a child, and how was Kate Mccann supposed to feel if she logged on to mn and read all this. And yet the mccanns are guilty of neglect. They left those children alone but for some reason they are vindicated by the fact that one of those children disappeared, something which would not have happened if they had been looking after her properly in the first place.

So why is it deemed ok to judge one person and not another? Bearing in mind that the Mccanns are still suspects in the disappearance of their daughter, so no less innocent than Karen Matthews and her family.

LOOBYLOU2 Mon 07-Apr-08 22:57:17

agree 2shoes - why didn't they say "her Mums current boyfriend"

Rowlers Mon 07-Apr-08 22:57:45

Hasn't the abductor uncle been taken to hospital for "harming himself"?
Curiouser and curiouser...

VeniVidiVickiQV Mon 07-Apr-08 22:59:29

Well, under Portugese law yes, they are official suspects.

In this country it's innocent until proven guilty isnt it?

S'why I said I'd sit back and wait to see what charges were generated and what comes up at the court case.

I have to say though - I found the two cases difficult to compare. The McCanns made a stupid stupid mistake. The Matthews - if what we have been led to believe is true - no mistake has been made, it's all been deliberate, and the child seemingly doesnt want to go back. They are very different cases which, if I'm going to be drawn on it at all - I'd say would have very different outcomes. The greatest difference with them being the fact that the British Police seem to be doing a much better job thus far........

edam Mon 07-Apr-08 23:06:41

sleepy, those things are not facts, they are allegations. No-one has been convicted of anything, yet.

The mother's boyfriend has indeed been charged but he has not been convicted. So it is not a 'fact' that he is responsible for child porn on the computer. And it is not a 'fact' that her extended family were 'holding her hostage'. We have to wait for the trial(s) and verdict(s).

know what you mean wannabe.
one rule for one not for anotehr.

snobs.
we are all judgemental snobs that's what it is,

Mamazon Mon 07-Apr-08 23:08:27

I may be a little less than curent on this but as far as i was aware the mother has only been arrested for perverting teh course of justice. she has not been charged with anything.

being arrested means very little. just that you will be formally questioned, under caution.

perverting the course of justice could be over something like givng her partner a false alibi, maybe she lied about how involved the uncle was with her partner.

It aggrevates me how a small piece of information can be twisted and stretched into such speculation.

edam Mon 07-Apr-08 23:09:09

Wannabe, the McCanns were declared suspects by an incompetent copper who made a shambles of the investigation, is under investigation himself for his handling of another missing child case, and has been replaced. So I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Mamazon Mon 07-Apr-08 23:11:21

2shoes - step father isn't really a legal term.
he is referred as Shannons step dad as he is living in teh family home and acting as a parental figure to the children.

sleepycat Mon 07-Apr-08 23:11:27

mmm ok it may not have been his choice of images on his own PC but it was a member of her extended family in the divan bed with her...fact

anyway I am not arguing was just getting my facts mixed up sorry!

night!

Rowlers Mon 07-Apr-08 23:11:47

judgemental snobs or a bunch of fishwives grin

edam Mon 07-Apr-08 23:24:33

Yup, it appears she was found with a member of the extended family BUT he has not been found guilty of kidnapping or any other crime yet. Wait for the trial.

Quattrocento Mon 07-Apr-08 23:44:44

I am appalled by the missing apostrophe in the thread title. More appalled by that than Shannon Matthews' Mother.

Heated Mon 07-Apr-08 23:47:26

The more is degenerates into Shameless the harder it is to control the inner snob.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 08:39:41

Reports today that Karen Matthew's was arrested on sunday night due to admitting to a Police Liaison Officer that she KNEW where shannon was all along!!

This is incredible if it has an ounce of truth in it. I gather cops have been granted more time to question her...

edam Tue 08-Apr-08 08:44:05

The papers (The Times, before anyone starts accusing me of believing the Daily Mail) are saying the mother was trying to leave the stepfather for the uncle who has been arrested but got cold feet. And the uncle snatched Shannon off his own back. But the mother worked it out PDQ - so it seems current thinking is she didn't plan the abduction but knew what was going on. Blimey.

Reminds me of that morality tale we used to get when I was little about how if you told one lie it would lead to more lies and more lies and get completely out of control. Until the whole world exploded or something.

If this theory is true, I'm surprised the mother hasn't got a better way to leave a relationship, she's had enough practice.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 08:47:41

So, does that mean that she felt she couldnt say that she thought shannon was with the uncle because it would blow her affair into the open?

OMG!

And does it mean that she was trying to send a message to him saying in the media it is 'someone I know' 'trying to get back at me'

Crikey, what sort of mum would do that, knowing her child was missing from, and would leave her there to save her own skin?

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 08:49:23

should say missing from 'home'

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 08:50:33

Message withdrawn

edam Tue 08-Apr-08 08:51:42

Maybe she knew her boyfriend's uncle was OK as in would look after her daughter reasonably well and was just too scared to 'fess up in front of the police world's media? Very wrong and stupid but can see how it might have happened.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 08:55:42

sky news saying there could be more arrests and that the police are very interested in Karens movements during the 24 missing days, strange, maybe she was in touch with shannon, but surely nobody would be that daft?!

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 09:05:23

Message withdrawn

Veraduckworthshandbag Tue 08-Apr-08 09:10:44

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 09:11:45

yes, just thought not many could be that thick!!! But you are right, they dont look like they are playing with a full deck!

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 09:13:32

Lovely choice of words there.
Very Classy hmm

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 09:14:03

Thats to veraduckthingy

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 09:18:41

Message withdrawn

Pennies Tue 08-Apr-08 09:19:51

Step away from the McCanns... Step away from the McCanns...

Can't anyone see that the more we learn about this case the less and less it has to do with them and yet any opportunity to bang on the drum and off we all go....

hmm

ROSEgarden Tue 08-Apr-08 09:23:21

agree with you jeremy, unnesessary language and phrase to usesad

Veraduckworthshandbag Tue 08-Apr-08 09:32:22

By riven on Tue 08-Apr-08 09:18:41
can't believe you said that Trolley. Do you judge cognitively disabled people with the same sneer about IQ's?

Could I just point out how very boring it is that no one can have a opinion about anything here without someone from the "I have no life PC mob" turning it in to something else....

Some people ARE thick as shite and saying so is not a slight at a person who has a disability, some people just never bothered going to school or trying to make anything of them self, some people are just stupid.

Its the same as when someone of a minority is spoken about it always turns in to someone shouting raciest.

It is of no help FFS it is just sad that some people see any bad thing said about someone black/ disabled what ever as nasty, to my mind if they see hate where there is none then they must be the ones who think that way and say saying someone is a sandwich short of a picnic is comparing them to a person with a disability is how they think.

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 09:34:21

Message withdrawn

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 09:38:54

Eurgh @ last 2 posts.

ROSEgarden Tue 08-Apr-08 09:41:19

my problem was the way your described what happend to the children in the photos..nothing else!

Panino Tue 08-Apr-08 09:41:22

Vera - you are demonstrating that you are as vulgar as the target of your bile. If not more so, as you 'should know better'.

<< extends nose as long as possible then looks down on Vera..grin>>

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 09:43:53

is it 'usual' behaviour for a mother to call 2 children by the same father 'twins' when they are not the same age?

Speaks volumes............

Veraduckworthshandbag Tue 08-Apr-08 09:47:05

Panino my love, I am nothing like these vile people.
I am married to the father of my children (and was before we had them)
I have 6 O levels 5 A levels a good job and work hard.

My children are well cared for have the things they need and I know where they are at all time

and they are not hidden under the dad of some bloke I might be having sex with at the time, (I do not sleep around either)
Also I know what soap if for.

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 09:47:28

But WHY do any of you care???

Assuming todays reports are true and the mother knew where Shannon was the whole time then is there not enough in that to sink your teeth into? (Never mind that no-on ehas been tried yet)

Why so much vitriol about intelligence levels etc?

TheFallenMadonna Tue 08-Apr-08 09:48:36

Is it really OK to look down on, "hate" even, people who are not intelligent? Bearing in mind that it's not really something you can do much about.

Ignorance on the other hand...

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 09:48:53

<Round of applause for foulmouthed Vera>

hmm

Panino Tue 08-Apr-08 09:48:54

All of that doesn't stop you being vulgar.

No1ErmaBombeckfan Tue 08-Apr-08 09:51:50

My issue with this is that when/if KM's mum is found guilty and she has served the time for the crime, the tax payer will once again have to fork out more money to protect the new identity she will be given ...

Who really are the stupid ones in this case???

Osyth Tue 08-Apr-08 09:53:28

5 A levels and you can't spell. shock

Jeez, these people may be 'stupid' and not live life with the same 'morals' you do but the horrid way you're preaching and believing yourself to be above them is much more skin-crawling IMO.

Oh, and if you want to brag about your education, I suggest you get more than some A levels, there are people on MN with Masters degrees FGS, maybe they'll come and look down on you for being 'stupid'.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 09:54:13

well, we care because we should care about children who are brought up within thiese dysfunctional families.

We care about where our hard earned taxes go, and im sure you agree that watching them being spent on crates of beer by the matthew family was rubbing salt into the wounds of those who work damn hard for what they have and it may not include the luxury of sitting on ones arse knocking back the alhohol paid for by someone else.

We care, because unless something is done to help the children involved here, history will repeat itself and a few years down the line there will be another generation the same.

If we care, those children will have a chance of a fresh start within a stable enviroment.

I think its sufficient reason as to why some of us on here care.

And extremely sad that quite obviously some don't.

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 09:54:47

Oh God, my head is about to explode.
Not feeling articulate enough this morning (though I 'd be in good company)
<hovers over the 'Hide' button>

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 09:55:06

It would be a sad day if we did not care, Jeremy.

If only we, as a society, cared more, perhaps this train wreck would not have happened.

Not to mention that the police investigation has cost an outrageous amount of tax payers' money to date.

There is caring about what happens to children and there is being spiteful.

Veraduckworthshandbag Tue 08-Apr-08 09:55:52

As I said I know what soap is for and the only photos on my PC are nice family holiday ones not the vile filth these people with their I.Q smaller then Shannon shoe size.

I think they should be locked up just for what was on the PC let alone anything else.
And there is no nice way to put it, children exploited for sexual pleasure is vile and vulgar or do you not think so!

Oh, and all this 'care' you all seem to have is based around your 'hard-earned' taxes, is that really care?
Or just greed?
So they may be on benefits, but that is just a factor of ther life, not what determines their whole being.

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 09:57:08

Message withdrawn

Panino Tue 08-Apr-08 09:57:31

yes VS, I DO hold two degrees, 10 years apart, and obtained a research post-degree qualification in my field.
Didn't wish to mention them at all. Till now.

Formal education, marriage, having children blah is no antidote to demonstrating a lacking in taste on a forum.

<< IMVH yet over-educated Opinion grin>>

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 09:57:43

Well said, Chocfest

Pennies Tue 08-Apr-08 09:59:13

JV - I suppose we care / are interested because at the heart of this is the plight of some children and as parents we are trying to make some sense of how / why those kids have ended up in the mess that they are in.

Because of the life they lead and the choices they've made it's not unreasonable to question their intelligence or levels of ignorance. Why's that so strange?

Furthermore, in this case we're all affected by it because we've been vicariously paying for it via our taxes / their benefits and this whole scenario is costing the taxpayer yet more. OK, money's not the MAIN issue but it has been mentioned here so it also goes to explain why some people are showing vitriol and judgement. Again, for me , that's not surprising.

FWIW I also think Riven's a bit too PC. Trolley's comments were obviously no slight on those who are mentally disabled so let's not start slinging mud at someone for drawing an analogy.

vera, you're disgusting. I'm hiding this thread. Glad you know what soap is for though hmm (sounds like something my long-dead granny would have said)

meemar Tue 08-Apr-08 10:00:34

ooh, glad to see this thread hasn't kicked off yet

grin

No1ErmaBombeckfan Tue 08-Apr-08 10:01:48

ha ha Meemar... should we check their bins for Nestle wrappers and fruit shoots???

piratecat Tue 08-Apr-08 10:03:09

Some more speculation from me.

Maybe Karen was being blackmailed by her lover? Who knows. She could be mentally ill, she could be under the influence of drugs or anything. They all could be to some extent.

Who knows what devastating circumstances lead to this situation, when you take into acocunt even the few detials we know about the family, the abuse etc...

Communities or people pushed together by lack of status, addiction,abuse can't always stand back and be clearheaded and suddenly coherent. We have no idea what is behind this, or who is covering for who.

Panino Tue 08-Apr-08 10:03:16

nah. One or two people on this thread "care" so they can crawl up their own bottoms and feel very smug about themselves by getting all pointy-fingered about other people. Insecure little folk, so they are.

right. need to take my brain the size of a planet off to do something useful.

Veraduckworthshandbag Tue 08-Apr-08 10:03:42

Never said I was a rocket scientist, just pointing out I am nothing like this bunch of low life breeders for benefits, with their children here there and everywhere by god knows who, and their let the state pay mentality.
Also I got my A's and O's despite dyslexia.

How ever you look at it these people are everything that is bad about England today, and everyone mollycoddling then and their life choices just adds to the problem.

piratecat Tue 08-Apr-08 10:03:52

helllo meemarr, you must have been connecting with me!!!

But people who are not particularly intelligent are normally not that way because they chose to be!

If you really want to get down to it maybe we should blame karen's mother, or her mother, or her mother, because people don't just suddenly become unintelligent and have lower morals than some of us may feel necessary, it's a way of life that they were bought into as children once and have not got either the inclination or capability to change their situation.

We are already seeing the possibility of Criag Meehan having been abused, who is to say Karen wasn't treated less than desirably? For all we know she may have been doing what she felt was best for her children, whether it be dishonest or not.

Freckle Tue 08-Apr-08 10:04:29

Actually, when this whole mess first hit the press, it was reported that Craig Meehan was to be commended because he had been supporting the family for the last 4 years through his full-time job. So maybe they weren't in receipt of benefits to the extent that some believe, possible just child benefit and tax credits (which a lot of people on here claim too - well, we all get child benefit).

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 10:05:08

That makes it all OK then, VS hmm

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 10:06:05

thanks scienceteacher.

Victorian - I care about the children involved, I also care about my taxes being spent in this way.

My greed does not come into it, and if it did, I would stop work today, call the benefits office, and when the first payment comes through, head to the supermarket to stock up on alcohol. Then of course, I would sit at one of my 2 computers, chat away on my mobile phone, watch a bit of tv, go for a drive in my car etc etc
Not a bad life really, if you could live with your conscience.

Others use their benefits as they were meant for, necessities for their families, and those are the ones I feel sorry for, the GENUINE people who need ehlp.

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 10:06:15

Craig Meehan worked on the fish counter in a supermarket.

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 10:06:52

"well, we care because we should care about children who are brought up within thiese dysfunctional families."

Dysfunctional families always have and always will exist. We dont license who can reproduce.

"We care about where our hard earned taxes go, and im sure you agree that watching them being spent on crates of beer by the matthew family was rubbing salt into the wounds of those who work damn hard for what they have and it may not include the luxury of sitting on ones arse knocking back the alhohol paid for by someone else."

I dont much care tbh. I paid higher rate tax for years, but have always just felt privileged to live in a country that has a decent benefits system. And I accept that along with a decent benefit system will come SOME who dont use it as we would wish.

"We care, because unless something is done to help the children involved here, history will repeat itself and a few years down the line there will be another generation the same. "

The same as what? Thick? Scummy? or just scroungers? Maybe so, poverty is a hard cycle to break.

"If we care, those children will have a chance of a fresh start within a stable enviroment."

No, not 'if we care'. We have a wonderful Social Services that are already on it.

"I think its sufficient reason as to why some of us on here care.

And extremely sad that quite obviously some don't. "

Yes, YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT.
i DONT CARE ABOUT THE FACT THEY ARE ON BENEFITS.
I dont care that they drink beer.
I dont care that they look dirty.
I dont care whether they have ever read a book or not.
I dont care how many men KM has slept with.

TheFallenMadonna Tue 08-Apr-08 10:07:42

I think being of very low intelligence is pretty disabling in our society.

I have no idea about the intelligence of this family. Or about what actually happened to Shannon Matthews. But I know that some of the comments on here have depressed me profoundly.

None of it is ok, but it's even less ok to sit here and slag off a family that we know nothing about.
There are a million and one people selling tidbits of information to the papers, but because the family can't articulate themselves well enough they must all be paedophiles and scroungers, of course.

We don't know what happened yet, no-one does, what we do know is Shannon is now safe and IMO that it all that really matters.

Nice to know you got close enough to smell whether they use soap or not as well Vera hmm

piratecat Tue 08-Apr-08 10:08:07

no it doesnt make it ok, but molycoddling is different to compassion.

i cannot understand people who are so bitter they have no copmpassion.

and no compassion does not mean condoning

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 10:08:27

or even 'help'!

Right must head off and get my 'triplets' aged 13,11 and 7 out into the sunshine!

Freckle Tue 08-Apr-08 10:08:37

So, just possibly, it was Craig's wages that paid for the beer?? Just a thought.

Enid Tue 08-Apr-08 10:09:47

lol @ 'competitive caring'

this is what happened on here over Madeleine McCann

soooooooooooooo predictable

piratecat Tue 08-Apr-08 10:11:58

sorry, and having compassion, does notmean condoning.

arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Panino Tue 08-Apr-08 10:12:24

Enid. But I do care!! Really!!! I care more than..erm...Princess Diana, Mother Teresa, Ghandi...whoops, they're all dead....erm.....

Panino Tue 08-Apr-08 10:13:28

pirate...we knew what you meant and just waited for you to come back.grin

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 10:14:06

I know a girl called Shannon. She has freckles too.
So I can say, in all honesty, that I care more than ANYONE ELSE. ok?

2shoes Tue 08-Apr-08 10:27:07

"FWIW I also think Riven's a bit too PC. Trolley's comments were obviously no slight on those who are mentally disabled so let's not start slinging mud at someone for drawing an analogy."
I suggest you check facts. the one thing yopu can't call riven is pc. But I tottally agree with her comment on this thread.

edam Tue 08-Apr-08 10:34:37

Where does all this slagging them off for living on benefits stuff come from? As others have said, the stepfather works - newspapers say he's a fishmonger.

Is the 'benefit cheats' thing just jumping to conclusions out of sheer prejudice? "Ooh, they are working class and live on a council estates, they must be scum?" Presumably the father pays taxes just like the people who are claiming moral superiority...

This case is murky enough without anyone inventing supposed crimes.

SixSpotBurnet Tue 08-Apr-08 10:38:38

Excellent posts, JeremyVile and edam.

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 10:51:29

PMSL chocfest and the triplets aged 13,11,7 !

meemar Tue 08-Apr-08 10:52:58

edam I agree, it's amazing how stereotypes so easily get blended together.

Single mother = council estate = living on benefits = benefit cheat

In the same way that immigrant = asylum seeker = bogus asylum seeker/ illegal immigrant/ benefit cheat

The media in this country have a lot to answer for.

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 10:56:03

must get trained up to be a fishmonger, never realised there was so much money in it!

TotalChaos Tue 08-Apr-08 10:56:53

excellent post JV. jibes about low IQ are a lot less funny if your child has been through ed psych testing for learning difficulty with the possibility they might be found to have a low iq. terribly easy to moan about PCness when it's not you or your family that are in the minority being judged.

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 10:58:10

You have to admit though that her behaviour is questionable - 7 children by 5 fathers at age 32 is not conventional.

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 11:00:05

They must have had sight problem

meemar Tue 08-Apr-08 11:03:28

yes her behaviour regarding perverting the course of justice is questionable.

Whether she has 7 kids by 5 fathers has nothing to do with it. Why can't people see that?

krang Tue 08-Apr-08 11:03:40

God, what a wonderful world it would be if some of the posters here were in charge of who has children...

PLEASE FILL IN THE FOLLOWING FORM. DO NOT LIE, OR YOUR RIGHT TO REPRODUCE WILL BE REMOVED. YOU WILL ALSO BE SUBJECTED TO HALF AN HOUR'S TUTTING.

1. Have you ever left your children alone for more than five minutes? YES/NO

2. Do you use your benefits to buy Morally Wrong Things like Strong Drink? YES/NO

3. Did you get a telly on credit when you could have spent the money on Wholesome Nourishment for the Babes?
YES/NO

4. How much do you CARE?
a. Loads! More than anyone
b. Not that much
c. Not at all, I am an evil benefits scrounger responsible for an entire feral generation

5. How Irresponsible are you on a scale of one to ten? Please take into account a/number of people slept with b/number of children by different fathers c/hairstyle

6. Have you ever done anything that anyone anywhere might consider Irresponsible? (Disclaimer: please take into account anything you have ever done with your children, ever. Bear in mind that we may not necessarily be able to define Irresponsible Acts of Bad Motherhood until they have occurred and their consequences have been fully investigated.)

TotalChaos Tue 08-Apr-08 11:04:32

krang grin. I love the "how much do you care" question.

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 11:07:03

If the answer is YES to questions 1,2,3, feel free to be involved in the alleged abduction of your own child, and some on MN will sympathise with you!

flight Tue 08-Apr-08 11:11:32

Oh what a load of rubbish. 'they must have had sight problem' I mean fgs. Like we want to teach our children that what you look like is all that counts if you want to be liked.

Krang that is fantastic grin

Scienceteacher, what has the number of children and/or fathers got to do with any of this??

edam Tue 08-Apr-08 11:12:15

jolly, Karen Matthews would say 'no' to Question 2 as her boyfriend works for a living, as several posters have pointed out. Whatever the Matthews' are - and they may well be very strange indeed - they do not appear to be on benefits.

edam Tue 08-Apr-08 11:13:27

eek, incorrect use of apostrophe as I changed what I was going to say, fear I will be drummed out of the pedantry club!

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 11:15:23

edam - watch this space on whether they are on benefits..........

a sight problem, well maybe not, but perhaps the other option is that there are very few women who live there!

flight Tue 08-Apr-08 11:16:32

Oh it's just not funny. That's just really crap 'humour'.

SixSpotBurnet Tue 08-Apr-08 11:17:13

krang grin

edam shock grin

edam Tue 08-Apr-08 11:20:13

so far, all the info in the public domain suggests not - why would they be on benefits if the boyfriend works? Apart from tax credits and I haven't seen anyone suggesting recipients of credits are 'benefits scum'.

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 11:20:38

ah, well, the truth will out...

edam Tue 08-Apr-08 11:21:45

ooh! Asked my mate on the Daily Mail a while back but he claimed not to have any inside info (is on a different desk).

krang Tue 08-Apr-08 11:22:40

7. Are you:

a. Middle Class, Rich and Smug
b. Working Class, Poor and Dirty
c. Middle Class, But a Bit Hippie Looking with Socialist Leanings. Also Poor.
c. None of the above. My superb parenting skills breach any class divide!

Oliveoil Tue 08-Apr-08 11:24:52

Do you not all have ironing that you could be getting on with or something?

flight Tue 08-Apr-08 11:26:38

tjg what on earth are you on about? Do you actually know something or are you as ignorant of the facts as the rest of us?

meemar Tue 08-Apr-08 11:29:30

Surely the point is that it doesn't matter whether they are on benefits or not. Legitimately or not.

What has any of that got to do with what happened to Shannon?

Someone pleeeeeeeease explain, my head is hurting!

krang Tue 08-Apr-08 11:31:42

What is this 'ironing' of which you speak?

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 11:32:54

if the situation had been reversed and craig meehan had 7 children by 5 different women would people still be saying it doesn't matter? Because somehow I don't think so.

People judge because having that many children by so many different men is not the norm, and should never be considered to be the norm.

Whether this family are on benefits or not is neither here nor there, but it is a sad day when people see bringing children up in such an unstable environment as normal, or acceptable.

flight Tue 08-Apr-08 11:38:00

wannabe it could have been completely stable but for other factors...evidently it wasn''t in this case but why does the number of children/fathers make it that way...there may well be people with several children by different men, whose family lives are good and happy. I know of one personally and my children also have different fathers.
You might as well say it was a disaster because she has pierced ears or bad shoes.
Yes the situation is not good but that's not because of the fathers thing, is it? It's because things were fundamentally wrong in other ways.

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 11:39:15

just had to pop out to pass a few of the kids over to their dads, so I can have some more........

Oliveoil Tue 08-Apr-08 11:41:29

7 children by 5 people is outrageous however you look at it tbh

I'm so pleased all of you have never made a mistake and had a child by the wrong man.

I had two by an absolute cunt and am now having my third by my new partner.

I'd like to think this relationship will last as I'm very happy, and I also doubt I'll have anymore children but it's nice to know if it did all fall apart tomorrow and I had another child, with another man I'd be eligible for the worst mother of the year award.

So she didn't make the best choices in her relationships, let's hang her.

meemar Tue 08-Apr-08 11:42:57

agree with flight. In the same way that being on benefits is irrelevent to the case, so is the number of children to different fathers.

A dysfunctional family with 2 children of the same father could still have produced this sad drama.

What about the man who killed his son in greece by throwing him from the balcony. They were married, both children were his.

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 11:45:14

because bringing that many men into children's lives certainly does not promote stability. let's look at it this way...

Karen Matthews has been with Craig Meehan for 5 years and they have one child together. Her eldest child is 12. so that means that she has had 6 children with 4 different men in the space of 7 years. Sorry but I would consider that out of the ordinary whoever it was. And I certainly don't think that having that many children by that many men should be promoted as ok.

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 11:47:08

especialy as she palmed them all off with the dads cos it got a bit crowded i supposed. Could have just got a new divan....

Palmed them off to the Dad because it got a bit crowded?
How do you know why they live with their Dads?
Why shouldn't some of them live with their fathers?
If this was a man whose children lived some with him and some with their mothers it wouldn't be an issue.

flight Tue 08-Apr-08 11:48:55

But Wannabe that's missing the point, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HAS HAPPENED!!!!!!

It is another thing about the family, that's all. It didn't predetermine the fact that things would fuck up.

I object to people loading factor after factor onto this in a blithwe fashion as though it all means that of course there would be trouble.

I reckon there were predisposing aspects of their lives that led to these events but also perhaps led to the number of partners, children etc and whether she drinks beer or not.

You are confusing cause and effect.

Why is it that the woman always gets the blame?

V mysogynist sad

It takes two to make a baby

JulesJules Tue 08-Apr-08 11:50:08

Krang - grin grin
And - heated, how perspicacious of you, the news today is saying that KM did indeed get the idea from "Shameless".
Right, I'm off to do some of this "ironing" of which you speak...

ScoobyDoo Tue 08-Apr-08 11:51:56

Sorry but a women that palms her children of with there fathers & then goes on to have more children, says what kind of a women she really is.

Jollygardener i think your sick sense of humour is going a bit to far now !!

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 11:53:12

ok scooby - point taken, I too shall away to this 'ironing' they all speak of

Exactly flight.

What caused this woman to have low ambition for herself and her family?

What caused her to have 7 children with different men?

What caused her to possibly lie about an abduction it seems she may have known more about than she let on?

What caused her to get together with a teenage lad when she was already a mother of 6 and in her late twenties?

I bet if Shannon Matthews grows up just like her mum half of you would be spouting 'What do you expect look at the role model she grew up with'. Maybe we should rewind 20 years.

Greyriverside Tue 08-Apr-08 11:55:32

Krang, I like your questionnaire!

I see that now we have established that they are not on benefits we have also declared it irrelevant. But it was relevant when we thought they were

As for having children by different parents that is anti christian I agree and they should be stoned.
However while they are under UK law perhaps that should be applicable instead? Also are we saying that muslims with multiple partners or mormons are evil?

Like many of you I do suspect it's an indication of a certain lack of judgement, but it could easily be just the way life works out.

For that matter she could even turn it around and say that unlike some she wasn't prepared to put up with a bad relationship out of laziness.

krang Tue 08-Apr-08 12:17:14

Are you:

a. Wannabe
b. Someone else

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 12:20:04

Message withdrawn

Perhaps we should get some pitchforks, round them up and burn them all at the stake?

Opnion is one thing, but some fo you are judge and jury. We don't even KNOW whether they are charging her?

God forbid that the CPS should take a charge to trial, that a jury should find her innocent, and you lot then harp on about ohw nfair it is that people on these sink estates are tarred with being lawless benefits cheats.

It does look bad on the face of it, but we only know what the MEDIA are telling us, and we KNOW v little of her genuine history, or her emotions, or her realtionships.

Ok, people make bad choices. its sad.

Doesn't Ulrika Johnson have several children by different fathers? Shall we burn her at the stake too? Oh no, she has MONEY.

GRRRRRRRRRR

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 12:24:09

Message withdrawn

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 12:33:54

Message withdrawn

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 12:46:01

Yes people make bad choices. But there comes a point when people have to take responsibility for their own actions. I don’t think the circumstances of Karen Matthews’ childhood/upbringing have been made clear, but even if she did come from a dysfunctional family, she is now an adult, presumably with the capacity to make her own life decisions/choices, so if those choices are the wrong ones then the only person responsible for that is her.

I don’t think it matters whether benefits are spent on beer/television/broadband, but I do think it makes a difference when people claim to be living in poverty. If you can afford television/computers/mobile phones you are not living in poverty. Therefore poverty cannot be used as a reason why families like Karen Matthews’ end up in the positions they are in.

At the end of the day, all that matters is that there is a little girl out there who would rather be in care than at home with her mother.
All I care about is that she goes to a loving, stable home, be it with her biological father or with a permament foster family.
Thats the only thing we should care about.
It does not matter whether this family was on benefits, whether it was all a ploy for money, whether this mother has children by several fathers.

Divastrop Tue 08-Apr-08 12:49:26

so what we can learn from this thread that any child who is not being brought up by nice middle-class christian parents who feed them organic food and dress them in boden are is actually being neglected and should be taken away by ss?

bollocks.the only difference between these sort of people and the middle class snobs in this country is that the former arent conducting their questionable lives in secret.

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 12:51:52

Message withdrawn

Because they don't read they are unfit parents?

I agree they may not be the best role models but we don;t know how they treated the children, which IMO is how you determine a good/bad parent.

Oh and we had books in my house, tons of them, whilst I was locked in my room 12 hours a day and having to piss in the corner of my room like a dog I was given plenty of fucking books.

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 12:56:10

Message withdrawn

flight Tue 08-Apr-08 12:56:24

Trolleydolly I am sorry to say this but you are talking utter shit. Stereotypes are not to be reiled on. Judging people in this manner is just ridiculous. How the fuck would you know if they went to the library or not, and why is it any of your business? angry
Comments like that are stupid and ignorant.

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 12:57:25

Message withdrawn

I think you are only safe as a mother if you are:
married (God forbid that you could be a better parent singally than in an unhappy marriage)

sahm (because, of course, women should only have the job of wife and mother)

educated (because obviously you are then passing on that wealth of knowledge to your child who can become a brilliant human being)

loving (because obviously only sahm married women can be loving)

correct weight (because being over weight is not condusive to having a happy child)

hmm

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 12:59:45

Message withdrawn

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 13:00:30

Message withdrawn

oh yes.

Married to a rich man...

BetteNoir Tue 08-Apr-08 13:09:34

What a shame. sad

This thread has turned out to be the sounding board for all those people who spouted shit about the MM case, and surmised that the mother was to blame.

Sadly for them, this was not the case, so their mindless blitherings ran aground somewhat.

But hey, now they've got Shannon's mother to fling their unfounded allegations at.

It's unfortunate that they can't see that being smug and self-righteous is much more deeply unpleasant and offensive than being a bit scruffy.

Greyriverside Tue 08-Apr-08 13:22:20

Krang when you said

>>Are you:

a. Wannabe
b. Someone else>>

Was that to me? if so I am definitely me and have never namechanged nor plan to.

In case of misunderstanding the first part of my post was to you and wasn't sarky. I really did like the questionaire. The other parts were aimed more generally

No1ErmaBombeckfan Tue 08-Apr-08 13:22:31

There is evience suggesting that KM knew where Sharon was and wasn't a missing child as reported...

If this is true, it will impact on future child abductions...

KM has to live with herself and the consequences of her actions

What and how she lives, dresses, chooses to live with, spends her benefits or reads is of no consequence...

I do hope that Shannon comes out of this all relatively unscathed and can achieve a bit more in her life than what her mum has done...

CoteDAzur Tue 08-Apr-08 13:25:29

I would take "smug and righteous" over "made 7 kids by 5 men, then hooked up with 18 yr old boy into child porn, and complicit in own daughter's kidnap" any day.

Sorry if that offends anyone.

TBF, I'd imagine all missing child enquiries immediately focus on the family so probably won't have that much of an impact.

CoteDAzur Tue 08-Apr-08 13:26:54

VictorianSqualor sad

CoteDazur, we don't know that she had any idea of Craig's porn collection.

I know, it's horrid, but from what I can gather most children hurt or abused are by someone they know so would be the most reasonable place for the police to look.

BetteNoir Tue 08-Apr-08 13:28:23

But hey, don't let a little thing like evidence stand in your way. hmm

Greyriverside Tue 08-Apr-08 13:28:28

Just a thought on kids 'being better off in care'. As a last resort that can sometimes be true. However I've been there and can say that it's not all pink and fluffy.

Also there were those kids sent to the Isle Of Wight home for their own good...

True GRS, My foster mother was more barmy than my own.

CoteDAzur Tue 08-Apr-08 13:33:03

Maybe she knew about his pedophilia, maybe she didn't. Maybe she suspected.

sad for your earlier post, by the way, not the latest one.

CoteDAzur Tue 08-Apr-08 13:35:02

Bette Noir - Is your understanding that Shannon's mother has just been unlucky in life?

<confused>

The thing about the child porn though is so terrible I'd prefer to give anyone whose partner was discovered to have it the benefit of the doubt wrt knowing because unfortunately every one of us on here could one day discover that our loved ones had such a collection.

Isle of Wight>

Do you mena Jersey?

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 14:02:33

By wannaBe on Tue 08-Apr-08 12:46:01
"Yes people make bad choices. But there comes a point when people have to take responsibility for their own actions. I don’t think the circumstances of Karen Matthews’ childhood/upbringing have been made clear, but even if she did come from a dysfunctional family, she is now an adult, presumably with the capacity to make her own life decisions/choices, so if those choices are the wrong ones then the only person responsible for that is her."

In what way is she not taking responsibility? The care of her children seems to be split between her and the fathers and her partner works.

"I don’t think it matters whether benefits are spent on beer/television/broadband, but I do think it makes a difference when people claim to be living in poverty. If you can afford television/computers/mobile phones you are not living in poverty. Therefore poverty cannot be used as a reason why families like Karen Matthews’ end up in the positions they are in.

When did she claim to be living in poverty? Or that her daughters disappearance (whatever the circumstances) was due to poverty?

So WHAT is your point? You seem to shift the focus of your actual gripe constantly. If you simply find the thought that she was complicit in Shannons 'abduction' abhorrent then I dont think you'll find anyone disagreeing. But that has NOTHING to do with any of the above. Yet that's what you're still bangning on about.

BetteNoir Tue 08-Apr-08 14:10:28

"Bette Noir - Is your understanding that Shannon's mother has just been unlucky in life?"

No, my understanding is that some people have nothing better to do than make up spurious claims about people they don't know, without stopping to bother about facts and evidence.

Sky News appears to be the viewed as the font of all knowledge on these types of thread.

Every rumour, every interview with the three cousin twice removed, is reported as fact.

It is highly unlikely that everything will be true.

BetteNoir Tue 08-Apr-08 14:11:10

third

CoteDAzur Tue 08-Apr-08 14:30:05

Bette Noir - Maybe you would like to start a new thread on your grievances re people who talk about other people. This thread appears to be on Sharon Matthews & family.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 14:42:03

I'm back from a lovely walk with my triplets aged 13, 11 and 7 and have read over todays posts.

If we go back to the beginning of all this Shannon missing saga, how will those who feel that Karen Matthew's has done nothing wrong explain the following.

9 year old daughter goes missing at 3.30 ish.

7pm her mother telephones police...

The child is just 9, it has been dark for hours, its winter, and her mother knows nothing of her whereabouts for at least 3 and half hours?

To me that says alot.

My eldest gets off the school but at approx 4pm, (3 minute walk) if she is not in the house by quarter past, I am wandering down the road to see where she is.

The first hours of a child going missing are vital to the investigation.

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 14:54:43

To be fair, chocfest, KM did say that she phoned around all the possible places for Shannon to be. If they had lots of friends and family within walking distance, it could have taken her, oh 45minutes to sort out?

My quins and I have had a lovely time sorting out the garden for spring

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 14:57:59

Soooooooooo, that brings us to 4.15ish....

Quins! How lovely, did you breastfeed them?! And what ages are they now?

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 14:59:07

Yes - including tandem nursing. I must have breastfed for 14 years without a break. They range from 16 to 6 (yesterday).

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 15:06:06

(grin)

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 15:07:53

thats hilarious, i cant even put one of those grin thingys on!! Is it the wrong brackets i am using?!!

mousehole Tue 08-Apr-08 15:08:50

square brackets choc

flight Tue 08-Apr-08 15:09:18

Grey I think Krang was adding a 'question 8' to her earlier masterpiece, I hesitated at the time but don't now think she was addressing you personally smile

BetteNoir Tue 08-Apr-08 15:11:47

"Bette Noir - Maybe you would like to start a new thread on your grievances re people who talk about other people. This thread appears to be on Sharon Matthews & family."

CoteDAzur, I don't have any particular "grievances" actually. I was merely expressing my opinion.

I also don't see the need to start another thread, as my comments were perfectly relevant to this one, but thank you for your helpful suggestion. hmm

But hey, you go right ahead with your assumptions and judging, and I'll hide the thread.

Job done. smile

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 15:12:31

right, here goes again

grin

thanks in advance if it works mouse

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 15:12:44

Maybe we should switch to discussing Bianca Jackson, then it would all be hypothetical.

meemar Tue 08-Apr-08 15:13:54

chocfest - I don't think anybody has said that Karen Matthews has done nothing wrong if the allegations/speculation is are true.

I think the point being made, certainly by me, is that being on benefits (which she may or may not be), or having 7 children by 5 fathers has nothing to do with it.

Greyriverside Tue 08-Apr-08 15:22:04

Flight, Ah I see it now - thanks. I got the wrong end of the stick didn't I

Shrinkingsagpuss, ty, yeah I meant to say "those kids sent to the Jersey childrens home for their own good"

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 15:26:33

I dont think people were saying there was anything wrong with being on benefits itself?

It was more of the way she appears to lead her life, lots of kids, lots of different fathers (anyone can make mistakes) but 5 times over?

Then it is looking like she had had enough of this one and at some stage had planned to leave craig for the next.

She takes hours to call the police when one of her children are missing..

Doesn't seem to me that she has ever considered the impact any of this will have on her children, and therefore, based on the facts we do know about her, she does not seem a dreadfully responsible mother IMO.

The benefits bit was more of an anger of people who do work and pay taxes, dont like to see it being spent on luxuries the workers cannot afford themselves, in otherwords, working very hard, to enrich someone elses life which we may like to enhjoy ourselves from time to time. Def not a thread about all benefit claimees.

Heated Tue 08-Apr-08 15:31:06

JulesJules - blimey I was 'perspicacious' in my Shameless comment last night but now very worried I could work for the Daily Mail blush!

Actually I've never seen the Shameless episode referred to, but ppl last night and today were veering between lofty judge and ye shall be judged versus the inner snob.

Which probably makes me a lofty snodge...but the fence sitting strain on the cheeks is started to hurt, I'm going to have to get off.

meemar Tue 08-Apr-08 15:51:57

(in answer to chocfest) yes, but the point is the benefits, the children by various fathers, the fact that she is 'thick', the fact that she is 'dirty' were all used as reasons for the Shannon abduction/scam.

This is a very rare type of case (thankfully). It resulted because of serious dysfunction in that family, but other terrible things happen in other families that have different problems.

Shannons abduction happened because of the awful actions of the individuals involved, including probably Karen. Those individuals happen to be of low education, from a broken family and of low economic status.

To suggest that this happened to Shannon because of the family status is insulting to anyone who comes from a similar background.

God, she has now admitted she did it and knew where Shannon was all the time

sad

ROSEgarden Tue 08-Apr-08 15:59:34

yeah apparently that was in paper mum read today!??

popsycal Tue 08-Apr-08 15:59:44

Where was this reported?

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:00:36

Message withdrawn

ROSEgarden Tue 08-Apr-08 16:01:16

smile..well if it was reported by my mum it will have been the star or the local gazettesmile

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:01:50

Message withdrawn

Divastrop Tue 08-Apr-08 16:14:08

trolly-why are you assuming that KM was incapable of a healthy relationship?where did you get that information?

I saw in the Times that she had apparently told a police liasion officer she knew where shannon was.
But it also said about Craig Meehans job so it was probably a bunch of lies...

Flight Tue 08-Apr-08 16:15:56

Diva, Trolley has no information or at least has not admitted to having any. She is speculating massively about lots of things. It makes me feel a bit ill just reading stuff like that.

I suppose it's the fact that she has children by different fathers again, she didn't choose that way, she is just incapable of a decent relationship hmm

Yes, I believe if those pictures did belong to Craig he is an unfit parent, but still don't see where Karen's parenting has been proven.

What people are seeming to forget is that if she knew where Shannon was she knew Shannon was 'safe' so maybe that explains her actions?

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 16:19:34

*trolly-why are you assuming that KM was incapable of a healthy relationship?where did you get that information?*

Uuuummmmm.....5 men, 7 children. Does that not smack of a problem with forming relationships?

kaz33 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:20:52

Haven't read all of this thread but get the general idea:

- hurrah shannon matthews is ok and its great it was all a scam if it was and she wasn't abused and murdered and dumped in a canal

- of course the Matthews want all the latest gadgets, the world we live bombards you with advertising, cheap credit etc..

- lots of kids grow up in undesirable circumstances but not all of them follow in their parents footsteps

- do we really think that being in care is a better place for the Matthews kids (didn't see the documentary) assuming that they won't be long term fostered or adopted. At least at home they will be with their siblings and maybe they will just stay under the radar

- there will always be some people who take the piss but lets not tar everyone on benefit with the same brush

- the government spends my taxes on loads of things I don't agree with - faith schools, bombs, M25 expansion, terminal 5. And I would much rather that the govt spends its money on welfare payments where it might actually help some people and their families rebuild their lives

CoteDAzur Tue 08-Apr-08 16:20:54

Google and you will see that there are quite a few sources saying mother confessed to knowing where Shannon was all along.

I thought it was common knowledge when I wrote this:

By CoteDAzur on Tue 08-Apr-08 13:25:29
I would take "smug and righteous" over "made 7 kids by 5 men, then hooked up with 18 yr old boy into child porn, and complicit in own daughter's kidnap" any day.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 16:22:14

i think it is plainly obvious that KM was incapable of a healthy relationship!!!

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 16:23:34

Not having books does not make you a bad parent.

Having had more than one partner does not necessarily make you a bad parent.

Not earning a fortune does not make you a bad parent, neither does living on benefits.

But imo having 4 of your children taken into care does raise some questions over your suitability as a parent.

Rightly or wrongly, when you allow the media into your life, you also open yourself up to the fact that they will uncover things about you you wouldn’t necessarily want published in the national papers.

How Karen Matthews lived her life would presumably have remained her business, except that she then decided to stage the abduction of her daughter, and in so doing she invited the media into her home, and thus into her private life, and the number of children/partners she had then became public knowledge, and that, coupled with the fact she seemingly played a part in her daughter’s disappearance, means that people will have judged her based on all that.

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:23:34

Message withdrawn

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:24:12

Message withdrawn

I suppose at the very least she had sex 7 times. And 7 times was daft enough not to use contraception, and happened to fall pregnant.

I've had sex more than 7 times, and with more than 5 people. (not all at once grin), but just have enough education not to be pregnant.

Not sure about these "new" claims that she "knew" all about it - I'll reserve judgement on that one. But can we please drop the whoel "7 children by 5 dads unfit mother thing" .

Flight Tue 08-Apr-08 16:26:01

I didn't imply or say anything whatsoever about Craig, Trolley.

I don't agree that it is Ok to speculate until all the facts are common knowledge.

I didn't say your opinion had to be kept secret, just that it was wrong to speculate. There is a big difference. You are saying stuff as though it were fact, which is just not the case.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 16:26:49

At the end of the day (even before she was taken in for questioning) this fabulous mother of 7, has NONE of them under her care.

Some with their fathers, and the rest taken into care.....

Flight Tue 08-Apr-08 16:28:44

I'm leaving this thread now because there are too many ridiculous implications and statements on it. I hate reading it.
I can't stop people saying things they 'presume' or 'reckon' about this family so I think I'll just leave them to it.
Prejudice is very hard to conquer at times. sad

ruty Tue 08-Apr-08 16:29:03

Nasty misogynistic stuff on here. Yuck.

I didn't say she was a fabuous mother. I don't know her, or her circumstances well enough to judge either way.

I wonder how many people we know and see eveyr day have had their children in care for a short period, for some reason or another? there are people on this website woh have mental health problems who may have needed care for their children at one point or naother. Who's to say the fathers aren't financially in a position to provide a higher standard of living?

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:29:57

Message withdrawn

Were they not taken into care after the whole child porn thing came out?
That may have had nothing to do with her?

If she staged the kidnapping then she was a prat, and probably a desperate prat to believe that she wouldn't be found out and would get money for it, but her daughter came to no harm, and could've been well looked after during the 'abduction' so how does that make her a bad mother?

Whether she has 20 children by 20 dads or one by one she has (probably) been involved in a fake kidnapping in which it has come out that her partner (possibly the man of her dreams, who are we to judge love?) has child porn on his computer, but she has done nothing more than be 'stupid' enough to think her plan would work, or decide not to tell the police her possible lover actually had her daughter once she knew he did.

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 16:32:22

karen matthews knew where she was
according to the times which is one of the less sensationalist papers.

They have also said on the bbc that the trustees of the madeleine mccann fund have been contacted by police to confirm claims that they were approached several times for a large cash donation.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 16:33:43

Well, as soon as this has been proven to be a huge mistake, that craig does not have porn on his pc, that karen was not involved in the alleged abduction, or knew where her daughter was all along, or was planning to leave dad number 5, for maybe dad number 6, and that they have been completely misunderstood, I shall be the first to invite this delightful couple into my home.

BUT I WONT HOLD MY BREATH.............

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 16:35:37

but when the child porn thing came out craig meehan was arrested and kept in custody, so with him out of the picture presumably the children were not at risk from him.

ROSEgarden Tue 08-Apr-08 16:37:01

so sad(about trying to get money from madeleine mccann's fund)..her parents must be astounded that these people can 'fake' their own daughters abductionsad

CrushWithEyeliner Tue 08-Apr-08 16:37:27

"If she staged the kidnapping then she was a prat, and probably a desperate prat to believe that she wouldn't be found out and would get money for it, but her daughter came to no harm, and could've been well looked after during the 'abduction' so how does that make her a bad mother?"

You are kidding? How does staging a kidnapping of your own daughter and leaving her somewhere she "might" come to no harm make you a bad Mother?

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:39:12

Message withdrawn

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 16:40:05

not so much a desperate prat but a greedy prat.

CrushWithEyeliner Tue 08-Apr-08 16:40:06

KM obviously does not put her children before her Husband(S) and that imo makes her a bad Mother and pretty messed up.

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 16:40:51

but apparently shannon was close to being taken into care before all this happened

here
so really this isn't just about a fake kidnapping is it?

unbelieveable that some people think that staging a kidnapping in order to potentially extort money from others really isn't that bad. If she could be complicit in faking her own daughter's abduction, what else could she be capable of?

How is it?
'Shannon, you're going to stay with uncle whoever for a little while ok.'
'Sure mum'.

It doesn't have to have been a bundling in the back of a van at midnight y'know.
Mum was supposedly visiting Shannon at the house and if the whole flipping family knew then they probably visited her too.
Ah, she wouldn't have got much exercise though would she.

Hulababy Tue 08-Apr-08 16:42:27

I am shocked that some people appear to be justifying what she has done (IF she is later found guilty of knowing where Shannon was that is). There can surely be no justification for this?

Think of the huge amount of tax payers money that went into the search for Shannon - serveral thousands of pounds worth of YOUR money - and of the wasted police time, when they could have been doing other stuff! Police worked round the clock, not going home, foregoing holidays and family time.

If this woman knew where her daughter was then of course she has acted illegally and very very wrong, and should be punished for her crime.

I hope they found that she didn't have anything to do with it or knew where she was. If she did she has behaved apallingly.

Crush, by might've not come to harm I don't mean KM was unsure, I mean we do not know if she was well looked after.

Of course there is no justification, she has broken the law, which is unexcusable.

But it doesn't mean she is devil's spwan.

Ok, she might not have physically suffered but I can't imagine the emotional impact that is going to have on her as she grows up.

Really hope that the whole family get some help now....

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:44:35

Message withdrawn

CrushWithEyeliner Tue 08-Apr-08 16:45:31

Oh come on - that must have been terrifying to be away from home, sensing all the negative energy, not allowed to watch TV or read a paper, kept indoors for fear of a sighting, and let's face it how on earth do we know she was in a place of safety with a Mother whose judgement sucks as mush as KM. Not even touching on morally how disgusting for S when she is old enough to digest what her mother really did..
Poor poor girl, poor children

jesuswhatnext Tue 08-Apr-08 16:45:41

frankly, i'm appalled at some of the comments on here, in this country we presumed innocent until found guilty!

we DON'T know this woman, we DON'T know ALL her circumstances, we only know what has been reported in the media, and for that, mostly the red-tops, whose editors are desperate for a muck-raking story at the best of times (remember the apologies to the macanns?)

fwiw - i could have 4 dcs by 4 differant husbands (i like weddings grinbut suffered a few mc)) however, KM could, just by looking at me, decide that i am a rich, snooty cow with a big house and more money than i know what to do with. i guess i'm not putting this very well, what i mean is, i will wait until she has been found gulity of something before i presume to make a judgement on her, her family and her way of life.

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 16:45:45

not to mention the cost of this 24 day hunt, the hours of police manpower must have cost an absolute fortune.

And if she knew about it, that is sicker than sick

ScienceTeacher Tue 08-Apr-08 16:46:14

I am also very shocked, Hulababy

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 16:47:08

Message withdrawn

Who said she couldn't watch Tv, and how many 9 year olds would be bothered about the paper?

Hulababy Tue 08-Apr-08 16:50:09

She may not be "devil's spawn" but I would hardly consider her Mother of the Year, or anywhere remotely close! She is a criminal (if found guilty) when all is said and done. This offence carries a possible custodial sentence - I know of people in prison who have done far less wrong than that!

If she was such a good mother this would not have occured. her daughter's welfare would have been priority. Her daughter would not have spent 24 days in a locked house, not going to school, not playing out, not seeing her friends and hiding under a divan bed. However, these things did happen to Shannon - and if t is found that her mother knew about it and did nothing, then she has not done right by her child and has not behaved as a good mother should/would.

ruty Tue 08-Apr-08 16:50:13

it is the speculation that is distasteful, especially the 5 children by 7 fathers, she should have been sterilized, etc.
It is like Ulrika Jonsson has 4 children by 4 fathers she gets jumped upon as a loose woman, whereas when Ken Livingstone reveals a similar situation no one bats an eyelid.

Hulababy Tue 08-Apr-08 16:51:13

There you go then - $£5 million of OUR money, wasted for nothing. If that is the case and that woman knew where she was ... how can she not be a criminal and treated as such?

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 16:51:33

I am really shock Victorian, that you are stocking up for KM so much.

I understand the posters who have said 'innocent until proven guilty' but saying she was well looked after whilst being abducted is beyond me!

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 16:51:56

sticking

meemar Tue 08-Apr-08 16:53:11

I haven't seen anyone justifying what happened to Shannon on this thread.

The only defence of Karen Matthews is from against people arguing that she is not scum, just because she is poor, uneducated and has 7 children with 5 fathers.

If she is guilty then her behaviour is appalling and I hope she is dealt with rightly, and her other children are made safe from further harm.

I am not justifying what she did, or sticking up for her.
Merely painting another possible side to this story that we have no idea to.

Is it really possible that we live in a society where it would occur to someone to use the supposed abduction of their child to play on the sympathies of the nation for an assumed finacial gain? If - and it's a massive 'if' that is what has happened then I really think as a nation we need to consider how it is possible for a person or people to be so lacking in empathy and compassion that they could put uninvolved family,friends and the wider community through such an experience. Not to mention the many, many parents who have lost children and who probably found the loss of Shannon to bring back distressing memories of their own. To do such a thing, to be so desperate or so cold - very,very sad sad

ruty Tue 08-Apr-08 17:04:01

yes quite meemar. Having 5 children by 7 fathers would be quite a feat. grin

We know so little about the case but it doesn't stop people indulging in horrible gossip.

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 17:18:52

vs, there is no "other side" to this story though. Either Karen Matthews was involved in Shannon's disappearance or she wasn't. If she wasn't, then that will presumably become apparent in time, but if she was then there is no justification. none. It doesn't matter whether Shannon was well cared for or not, the fact is that if Karen Matthews had a hand in this, then she played on public sympathy, gained credibility in the media, kept the police away from potentially real crimes, and if Shannon had not been found when she was, would have potentially gone on to gain from this financially.

There is a member of Karen Matthews' family who has come on to this site and has said that she is glad that those children have been taken into care. That speaks volumes IMO.

So yes, if Karen matthews is found guilty of involvement in Shannon's disappearance, then she is scum, along with anyone else who was involved.

I didnt say it was justified FGS.
I just said Shannon may not have been at all harmed by it!

JeremyVile Tue 08-Apr-08 17:20:54

Oh but Wannabe, you decided she was scum long before any suggestion she played a part in this.

CoteDAzur Tue 08-Apr-08 17:25:58

VS - Did you just say even if she staged her own daughter's abduction, how does that make her a bad mother??? shock

If that doesn't make you a bad mother, what on earth is a 'bad mother'?

Even if (a big IF) nothing else happened during her 'abduction' - She was stuck in a bed (fgs) and pulled out by the police who crashed through the door. Now the whole world is talking about her. And why did her mother put her through this trauma? Money.

And you think this does not make her a 'bad mother'?!? shock hmm

By VictorianSqualor on Tue 08-Apr-08 16:31:53
If she staged the kidnapping then she was a prat (...), but her daughter came to no harm, and could've been well looked after during the 'abduction' so how does that make her a bad mother?

TBH I don't think Shannon's family can use their class and financial status as any justification if they did indeed stage the whole sordid affair,or even know/have the faintest inkling what had happened to her.
As for having 7 hildren by 5 fathers, well to me its not the fact that she was sleeping with all these different men but the fact that it seems to be indicative of a woman who seems to regard having a child so lightly, you would think after 2/3/4 children she would have not wanted to have any children with random men unless she was married/in a stable longterm relationship AND financially able to support any subsequent children. To me her her lifestyle choices speak of a woman who isn't emotionally as healthy as she could be. Ultimately if Shannon ends up being raised by loving foster parents instead of starting the cycle over again in ten years (which statistically she would have been very likely to do) then maybe she will have a happier life, money doesn't make you happy, but it can alleviate some of the causes of unhappiness, it can give you options and choices.

And no, I don't believe it is responsible to have children when you are relying on other peopleto support them, I would have had my 4th child much sooner after I had my 3rd but for the fact that it took three years until me and DH could afford to maintain the lifestyle we would want AND have another child.
I say this as a mother of 6 children by one man who is more than able to support us all financially.

mousehole Tue 08-Apr-08 17:38:28

northernlurker - we all live in a society where hugely despicable things go on - this is fairly mild in comparison to some.

Listening to R4 in the car this morning was heartbreaking (Shy Keenan (sic)). What happened to her was far worse it seems than anything that KM and her family have done - at least lets hope so - and the fact that social services didn't appear to care.

In this case at least social services seem to be on the case so to speak. I just hope that the media pressure on them and this particular case doesn't mean they inadvertantly take their eyes off the balls of other cases.

Divastrop Tue 08-Apr-08 17:44:49

scienceteacher etc-i will repeat,how do you know she had problems forming relationships?where does it say that she kicked the bloke out as soon as she'd mated with them?maybe they turned out to be cheating arseholes but as they werent middle class cheating arseholes she didnt see the need to stay with them so she could keep her nice house and car?hmm

personally,i think that bigoted snobs should be banned from having kids,as we certainly dont need another generation of them

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 17:48:04

Sky news now reporting that Karen has admitted talking to the alleged abuductor just before shannon went missing.

Police said, if they had known this info at the beginning then it would have led them straight to her............

fin54 Tue 08-Apr-08 17:49:58

This is about a nine year old child, who should have been safely looked after by her parents, not left to come home from school on her own while her mother “probably was sitting on her fat arse drinking tea/coffee “entertaining halve the council estate she lives in, (I also live in council estate but my children have always been well looked after and provided for)
KM looks what she is, a mother who doesn’t give a dam about the kids she brought into the world, she should be sterilised and not be allowed to have any more children who are left to walk home alone “and probably left to roam the streets and annoy everyone else”
If you can’t look after children don’t have them.
I will probably be linched for this posting, but CHILDREN are the most treasured thing anyone can ever have.

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 17:54:07

Message withdrawn

sarah293 Tue 08-Apr-08 17:54:22

Message withdrawn

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 18:00:36

not exactly the same situation as in the single mums Riven. Looks like KM had just about time to tidy up her bikini line before the next man was on the scene!

chocfest Tue 08-Apr-08 18:13:57

police now got til tomorrow to continue questioning KM.

PABLOP Tue 08-Apr-08 18:23:49

Calendar, local news channel has just reported that the CPS will be making an announcement within the net hour direct from Dewsbury police station.

MadameCh0let Tue 08-Apr-08 18:38:17

I agree with Peapod.

I also thinks it's terribly sad that the next time a little girl goes missing, from a working class family, some people will be doubting the parents story, thinking that this INSANE woman and her strange men friends are somehow representitive of the average working class person. I think they are exceptionally cold-hearted and KM has betrayed her daughter, so sickeningly.

Working class girls will go missing again though, and unfortunately Karen Matthews might be mentioned in the next breath sad

Thank God Shannon has been placed with a foster family.

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 08-Apr-08 18:40:21

Well, this wouldnt be the first staged kidnapping in history, would it?

Am ROFL at Krang's Questionnare....

"By krang on Tue 08-Apr-08 11:03:40
God, what a wonderful world it would be if some of the posters here were in charge of who has children...

PLEASE FILL IN THE FOLLOWING FORM. DO NOT LIE, OR YOUR RIGHT TO REPRODUCE WILL BE REMOVED. YOU WILL ALSO BE SUBJECTED TO HALF AN HOUR'S TUTTING.

1. Have you ever left your children alone for more than five minutes? YES/NO

2. Do you use your benefits to buy Morally Wrong Things like Strong Drink? YES/NO

3. Did you get a telly on credit when you could have spent the money on Wholesome Nourishment for the Babes?
YES/NO

4. How much do you CARE?
a. Loads! More than anyone
b. Not that much
c. Not at all, I am an evil benefits scrounger responsible for an entire feral generation

5. How Irresponsible are you on a scale of one to ten? Please take into account a/number of people slept with b/number of children by different fathers c/hairstyle

6. Have you ever done anything that anyone anywhere might consider Irresponsible? (Disclaimer: please take into account anything you have ever done with your children, ever. Bear in mind that we may not necessarily be able to define Irresponsible Acts of Bad Motherhood until they have occurred and their consequences have been fully investigated.) "

If Shannons mother was involved, then I think that is very sad.

I still that the main issue is the welfare of Shannon. I hope she ends up with a family who love her, whether it be with her father or with a foster family.

fircone Tue 08-Apr-08 19:04:55

I simply don't understand people on here justifying Karen Matthews's behaviour.

They would be the first people to slate the social services if Shannon, who was about to be removed from her home before any of this happened, had come to any harm.

The child should have our sympathy, not a useless mother. I'm sure some people were most understanding about Victoria Climbie's home circumstances and quite ready to accept that different folk/different strokes etc, and look what happened there.

Judy1234 Tue 08-Apr-08 19:11:22

She's certainly not done the image of working class mothers much good, has she?

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 08-Apr-08 19:11:27

fircone - we dont know exactly what she's done though, do we? Not yet.

Oh, and something I forgot to post earlier...

The child's name is Shannon not Sharon....

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 08-Apr-08 19:12:08

I dont think they could go lower in your estimation Xenia, could they????

fin54 Tue 08-Apr-08 19:57:07

Riven at no time did I criticize or say anything about single mother, KM quiet clearly is not a single mother (all be it she probably would have been better being one) I was one myself many years ago.
Totally agree with chocfest and Xenia, she has done nothing for the responsible single mothers of this country, although there are many good single mothers who care for their children brilliantly

CrackerOfNuts Tue 08-Apr-08 20:00:08

Xenia, that would depend on wether you judge each working class mother seperatly, as you should, or wether you just judge them all by someone else mistakes.

CoteDAzur Tue 08-Apr-08 20:07:40

How do you define 'working class' to include Shannon's mother?

How often do you think she worked full-time in the past decade to have children aged 11, 10, 9, 7, 6, 5, and 2?

thejollygardener Tue 08-Apr-08 20:19:58

Looks as though KM has been a 'working girl' but not a 'working class working girl'

Trolleydolly71 Tue 08-Apr-08 20:38:58

Message withdrawn

goblinvalley Tue 08-Apr-08 20:41:54

Her mother has been charged with 'perverting the course of justice'.

WHY would you do this to your child? A very sad strange set of affairs.

harman Tue 08-Apr-08 20:42:41

Message withdrawn

Heated Tue 08-Apr-08 20:43:30

Is she not part of an underclass in today's Britain?

Heated Tue 08-Apr-08 20:45:15

Victorian Squalor's MN name put me in mind of the C19th women prostituted their children for gin or sold their youngest to be sweeps to feed the rest.

So is this the modern day equivalent, prostituting your child to the press, using her for financial gain, whatever the emtotional cost to the child?

Let's hope not.

Divastrop Tue 08-Apr-08 20:49:12

nobody is defending karen matthews.the best thats been said about her is 'innocent untill proven guilty'.its just that some posters(myself included)object to the judging of a woman on the basis of her relationship history and what her house looks like.

and what the hell is wrong with a 9 year old walking home from school by themself?

fin54 Tue 08-Apr-08 21:09:12

Everything is wrong with a 9 year old walking home from school in today's society, gone are the days when children are safe and why would any decent loving mother take the chance with their children’s lives, more so when like KM they are sitting in the house entertaining their boyfriends or halve the estate they live in. Most working mothers make arrangements for their children to be picked up from school by responsible adults, she was sitting on her arse doing sweet f**k all by the looks of it, or maybe she was doing her bikini line.

moreJellothanJlo Tue 08-Apr-08 21:13:38

what a stupid post fin, what planet do you live on?

mousehole Tue 08-Apr-08 21:18:32

I might allow my ds (nearly 9) walk home on his won - he's plays out with his friend by themselves but certainly wouldn't have him coming home to an empty home. You HAVE to allow you children to grow up and have small amounts of responsibility otherwise you'll have major problems later.

KM has been charged with child neglect - I personally think this is so they can hold her and question her further to possibly make a case for her aiding and abetting the kidnap.

snowleopard Tue 08-Apr-08 21:21:25

I think that's wrong Fin - I've seen several reports that have pointed out that the number of child abductions/murders by strangers has actually not increased over the last 30 or 40 years. It remains pretty steady. The streets aren't more dangerous than they were.

There is a little boy who lives near me who is allowed to go to the shop by himself and has been since he was about 5 or 6 - I think his parents are sensible in letting him learn to be independent - knowing that we ive in a close-knit community and everyone looks out for each other's kids. Children have to learn to cope on their own - if not at 9, then when? Let's face it, if someone really wants to abduct you, they can - at any age. But learning to be streetwise is important. Otherwise we'd be letting clueless 18yos out onto the street never having crossed a road on their own.

That's not a comment on this particular case though - it all seems very murky and who knows who was involved and why.

Hulababy Tue 08-Apr-08 21:22:05

There is, of course, nothing wrong with a 9yo child walking home froms chool on their own so long as it is a safe route, and it is in dayligh hours, and the child is f the nature to be sensible and come straight home.

I certainly walked home by myself, or at least with friends, at that age. And really the dangers regarding strangers or abduction are no worse, although the increased traffic is certainly a conern on some routes.

wannaBe Tue 08-Apr-08 21:22:34

Hmmm. Actually I don’t think the world is any more dangerous now than it ever was, it’s just that there is more news which paints the world as a more dangerous place. And at 9 I was certainly allowed out to play on my own/go to my friends’ houses, I didn’t walk home from school but that was because I went to boarding school.

There does have to come a time when we let our children have that little bit more freedom, and for some that time comes sooner than for others, but I don’t think 9 is completely too young to be allowed to walk home from school, provided the walk home isn’t too far/across too many main roads etc.

MH I would imagine that if KM has been charged with perverting the course of justice she will be remanded in custody for her own safety if nothing else. Imagine feelings will be running high amongst her neighbours.

wheresthehamster Tue 08-Apr-08 21:30:21

KM charged here

TheMoistWorldOfSeptimusQuench Tue 08-Apr-08 21:30:40

By thejollygardener on Tue 08-Apr-08 20:19:58
Looks as though KM has been a 'working girl' but not a 'working class working girl'

tjg - really? Has she been outed as a prostitute as well?

Golly gosh.

Or is this another example of your, err... "wit"?

<<confused emoticon>>

fin54 Tue 08-Apr-08 21:32:14

moreJellothanJlo, I know what is more important to me.

My children or entertaining the street,
My children would have to came first and I live on the SAME PLANET as you but maybe my priorities are more important to me than yours, as when doing the school run I see mothers collecting p7 children every day and they are not 9 years of age.

How could anyone do that to their own child and for what? money!!

ScoobyDoo Tue 08-Apr-08 21:35:42

You know what, now she has been charged i am glad her friggin kids have been taken away, maybe they can now have a settled, loving life instead of living amogst a friggin mess, stupid cow i hope she goes to prison,.

fin54 Tue 08-Apr-08 21:41:09

Couldn't agree with you more ScoobyDoo, these poor children will be better off with decent loving people who will maybe give them a better chance at a decent li