Was anyone taken in by Project Utter Crap today?

[claig]

It is said there are 200 pages of it. It could probably win the Cooker Prize for Fiction. It is the sort of thing that was probably cooked up by one of the Oxbridge teams.

How dense do they think we are? They are asking us whether we want the Norway model, the Canada model or the Papa New Guinea model? All we want is out and as soon as possible!

"One backbencher said that the Remain campaign's 'Project Fear' approach had 'turned into Project Utter Cr**'. "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3545348/Osborne-rails-dishonest-Brexit-supporters-warns-quitting-cost-family-4-300.html

[StrumpersPlunkett]

All I know is a v good friend works at the treasury and has done for 20 years
He is an international economist and works on trade agreements

No axe to grind

He is adamant we should stay in as coming out would cause terrific long term financial hardship for the country

[claig]

Well, I'm not an expert on the Treasury, but this is what Kwasi Kwarteng said today

"Another Tory, Kwasi Kwarteng dismissed the document as 'intellectually dishonest'.

'I think these figures are absurd, frankly,' he told the BBC's Daily Politics. 'The Treasury were the same people who said at the beginning of the last parliament that we would have eliminated the deficit by 2015. The deficit has not been eliminated.

'The Treasury did not predict the 2008 credit crunch, neither did they predict the Greek blowout and so, for a bunch of officials and economists to say they can describe within a pound what the state of the British economy and people's economic wellbeing will be in 2030, 14 years' time, is simply absurd.'

---

I think Kwasi was being a little unfair because they probably did predict the MPs' 11% pay rise.

[claig]

'so, for a bunch of officials and economists to say they can describe within a pound what the state of the British economy and people's economic wellbeing will be in 2030, 14 years' time, is simply absurd.''

It's the Theatre of the Absurd and the waxworks at Madam Tussaud's combined and that's without PM's Question Time which is a cross between a farce, a film noir, the Commedia dell'Arte and a Frank Spencer Christmas Special.

[ReallyTired]

When we agreed to the eu it was a small number of countries and now we have 28. The U.K. is being swamped by unskilled eu migrants. The problem will get worse if Turkey joins the EU.

Working class British people have been screwed by immigrants completing for low level jobs. Housing costs have been pushed up by immigration. We do not have enough school places or doctors for our increasing population.

Having immigrants doing jobs for a pittance maybe good for the middle classes, but it means that great swathes of the British population are dependent on benefits. Employers can be picky and reject anyone with a less than perfect work history.

It used to be that young people could find jobs easily and you could live on an unskilled job.

[claig]

It's on Newsnight now. Our best minds (most probably Oxbridge) are all on to put their oar in.

Evan Davis just asked the audience to put their hands up if they trust the Treasury "analysis". No one's hand went up and the converstaion moved on swiftly. BBC Oxbridge editors were probably too slow with their finger on the button to cut that part out of the public broadcast.

[claig]

BBC now doing one of their docudrama type "nightmare" scenarios about what happens in the future if we leave. It's classic Oxbridge, bull and bush. Audience probably now all turning over as they understand the game.

[Brokenbiscuit]

So Claig, aside from your frustration with Oxbridge-educated journalists, how do you see the trade agreements working if we pull out?

It's all very well to say that it doesn't matter, we just want out, but it does matter. So what is the model that you anticipate?

[claig]

'how do you see the trade agreements working if we pull out?'

I think they won't change because the Europeans sell more to us than we sell to them so they will leave them as they are. The "experts" told us on the BBC that we would suffer because our standards would diverge, but there is no reason for our standards to diverge if we don't want them to and aanyway China has to meet our health and safety standards and we have to meet Japan's so varations in standards is not a major problem for an adaptive economy. We would also be able to negotiate our own trade deals with China etc on a one-to-one basis that suit our own individual requirements rather than having to fit in with EU requirements that have to satisfy 28 countries' requirements.

Finally, Trump will tear up the free trade deals like TTIP and will negotiate one-to-one deals so that is something our wonks will have to get used to.

' So what is the model that you anticipate?'

One to one deals that meet our own requirements, not a committee meeting Gordon Brown style Big Conversation with 28 countries' bureaucrats, functionaries and all expenses paid flunkeys.

[MrsHathaway]

Wouldn't Oxbridge have you?

[claig]

Fortunately not.

[AnnaForbes]

On LBC this evening they were virtually begging for someone to call in who supported Osborne's dodgy report.

[claig]

'On LBC this evening they were virtually begging for someone to call in who supported Osborne's dodgy report.'

Didn't anyone from the Treasury ring in either? There are probably more holes in the 200 pages than in swiss EFTA free trade cheese.

[claig]

Channel 4 News was in Stoke-on-Trent today and apparently they could find hardly anyone who wanted to stay in.

Reports must have got back to Establishment HQ and they are probably working on Project Utter Crap With Bells On to try and pull a rabbit out of the hat. CVs are probably being faxed from HQ to all sorts of taxpayer funded charidees, NGOs and quangos looking for work after the fallout on June 24th.

[Limer]

Project Utter Crap is laughable. This week's buzzwords are obviously "economic shock" - in big letters in the propaganda leaflet and being trotted out by every Stayer being interviewed.

Once the UK leaves, the EU won't just carry on in the same way - others will leave too. There'll be a rump of German-centred countries left, still striving for ever-closer union, but trade will continue - when did capitalism ever take any notice of politics?

[PigletJohn]

"I think they won't change "

A marvellous bit of blind faith.

[pratiaalba]

GB leaving EU will be the unravelling of the EU, that's why they're so desperate for us not to leave.
The money GB brings to EU finances is too great to lose- look at the tax they brought in on financial transactions to milk money from the city of London.

Other countries will question why and how they will make up the funding shortfall once GB goes, and there will be a domino effect.
Basically, Europeans are fed-up of paying for Germany's prosperity (and France's unemployment problem).


They have destroyed Greece. Utterly destroyed it. The world's oldest democracy has been brought to its knees not by a despot but by bureaucrats. I really, really feel for young people in Greece, they're going to suffer their whole of adult lives with this burden.

I don't want it to happen in GB. Young people already have it bad enough with the housing situation, and having to pay for university.

[PigletJohn]

"look at the tax they brought in on financial transactions to milk money from the city of London"

Brought in? When?

Or are you thinking of the proposals, which the UK, as a major and influential member of the EU, blocked? The proposals which a non-member will have no vote on, and will not even be in the conference chamber next time it comes up? The proposals which, if the EU decides to implement, any non-EU country wishing to provide financial services to EU members will be obliged to obey? Including a country whose financial sector is bigger than the whole of its manufacturing sector, and which will be desperate to maintain its foreign earnings from EU customers?

[sportinguista]

DH and I were discussing this and the truth is with each option you have no absolute certainty. The EU in 10/20 years time is most likely not going to be the same or mean the same or even operate in the same way as now. A UK out of the EU is not going to be the same as now either. So either way you are voting for change, one might be more gradual but it will still be change and it's not guaranteed to be positive for all, but neither is the other, it may be more dramatic in terms of intial change.

The key thing for me is no one is saying what are the directions of both, what are the aims, where do we see ourselves in 10 years time with each. That is something I'd like to hear from both.

[Lookingagain]

The key thing for me is no one is saying what are the directions of both, what are the aims, where do we see ourselves in 10 years time with each. That is something I'd like to hear from both.

I agree completely sportinguista.

[claig]

As Dan Hannan said on BBC Newsnight last night, everything is a risk - leaving or staying in - but it is better to take that risk while having full control of our own policies and laws rather than being subject to Brussels.

We are a great country with great people - the fifth largest economy in the world. There is nothing we can't achieve if we run our own affairs and determine our own future rather than leave it in the hands of an unelected bunch of bureaucrats and a band of bankers.

[ouryve]

There's a lot to be said for being on the inside, pissing out...

[Lanark2]

Anyone intelligent knows how many laws, financial agreements, legal services, subsidy programmes, are emeshed with European Law. Coming out will give great jobs to lawyers tax officials and accountants for about 20 years. Instability anyway will damage the pound, but instability for 20 years will damage it further. All the stupid racists, and the guffawing anti French public school Tossers want out. Sensible in, mentals out.

I'm a sensible

[claig]

'There's a lot to be said for being on the inside, pissing out...'

No because it doesn't suit the British people, it only suits the gravy train Oxbridge bureaucrats, bigwigs and bankers with their all expenses paid charges as they negotiate our sovereignty and right to control our borders with a bunch of here today gne tomorrow politicians from Latvia to Luxembourg.

[claig]

'and the guffawing anti French public school Tossers want out'

Isn't Jeremy Clarkson with our Prime Minister for staying in?

[claig]

They have circled the wagons, the Establishment is desperate, all their cronies have come out of the woodwork, it's their last stand because the people are going to have their say.

"No Mr Delors, we ain't gonna take it anymore, we want to make our own law"