Italian court makes stuff up again (re Meredith Kercher)

(31 Posts)

Guardian report

"It is a matter of fact that at a certain point in the evening events accelerated. The English girl was attacked by Amanda Marie Knox, by Raffaele Sollecito, who was backing up his girlfriend, and by Rudi Hermann Guede, and constrained within her own room,"

Fact???

The report in the DM includes the same quote as the Guardian but also says:

"The court said there was ample evidence of a bad relationship between the two roommates, despite Knox's attempts to play down differences in court.
It cited statements by Guede under police questioning that Kercher had blamed Knox for taking money from the British student's room"

But at the start, & for months after his arrest, Guede said that AK & RS weren't there that night - didn't he?

ReallyTired Wed 30-Apr-14 13:46:53

Italy is not a tin pot third world state. It is part of the european union.
The US needs to extricite Amanda Knox so that she can face trial and be punished if she is guilty. Trial should be done by jury and not media or mumsnet.

Meredith Kercher was a British citizen and the UK should put pressure on the US to excridite Amanda Knox. Even if she is innocent she is a key witness and should be forced to give testomy.

I would have more respect for Amanda Knox if she did not act like a coward and flee to the US.

dilys4trevor Wed 30-Apr-14 13:51:36

I was a bit confused about this story also. On page 3 of the Metro it said that an Italian court ruled that the three of them held her down and AK dealt the killer blow, also that the whole thing was because of a stolen money accusation, not a sex game gone wrong.

I haven't been following it in detail but this all sounds like massive news to me and I was surprised to see it languishing on page 3.

Then again, I should read a proper newspaper.

BoomBoomsCousin Wed 30-Apr-14 23:43:20

Really Why would the UK government put pressure on the US government to extradict someone to Italy when Italy have not yet requested that person be extradited? Surely we should be putting pressure on Italy? They are the ones who appear to be unable to put anyone behind bars for this.

BookABooSue Thu 01-May-14 12:00:18

The Italian courts consider it a fact that they are guilty. You may disagree but that doesn't mean they are 'making things up' and the reason they are suggesting for the argument at least fits with witness statements from the time about the rent, etc.

nennypops Thu 01-May-14 12:48:28

Seems to be a seriously flawed judgment which the higher courts may well choose to overturn again because of some blatant errors. See www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/01/amanda-knox-retrial-new-report-italian-court

AKeyFox Thu 01-May-14 12:59:31

So it goes back to the high court, for another ruling.
One more year.

Seems insane.

PortofinoRevisited Thu 01-May-14 13:05:19

Um - someone IS behind bars for this crime - the one that did it. The one who left his palm print in blood and his DNA on Meredith's body. The rest is all a load of bollocks.

BookABooSue Thu 01-May-14 14:15:12

nennypops the Guardian article is written by the co-author of Sollecito's book. He's hardly unbiased hmm

nennypops Thu 01-May-14 14:18:47

Well, he makes that clear - it's no secret. However, the facts speak for themselves.

BookABooSue Thu 01-May-14 14:37:28

I think the most important fact is that Meredith was murdered and deserves justice. I'm sure there will be copies of the court documents online that present the reality of the court's case and decision making process.

I have no idea what happened that night but I am supportive of the Italian justice system and have more faith in its processes than I have in pr articles.

AKeyFox Thu 01-May-14 14:39:32

Why do you have faith in the Italian justice system, it seems deeply flawed ?

nennypops Thu 01-May-14 17:56:40

But she has justice: the person whose DNA was all over the place and who confessed to killing her is in prison. It really is not credible, as the Italian judgment seeks to assert, that Knox and Sollecito managed to clean up each and every molecule of their DNA whist leaving masses of Guede's intact.

beccajoh Thu 01-May-14 18:06:06

Tbf Knox didn't run away to the US. She was cleared of the charges and went home as, I suspect, most people would do.

I've no idea if she's guilty or not. I wasn't there when the crime happened. The whole thing has been a bit of a farce and a right cock up by the Italian Police.

BookABooSue Thu 01-May-14 18:07:12

Nennypops the Kerchers don't feel they have justice as they believe there was more than one attacker and the court documents I've read seem to support that. Furthermore, I believe the DNA reports which include Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp, and Amanda and Meredith's on the knife. I struggle with your implication that some of the DNA results are to be trusted (ie those that convict Guede) and that others (those that convict Sollecito and Knox) are false readings or caused by contamination.

AKeyFox I'm not a solicitor but I have friend who are and they don't feel the Italian justice system is flawed. If this is ever proven to be a huge miscarriage of justice then I'll be the first to admit I was wrong but it's worth remembering that even the US hasn't taken that position over this case.

BookABooSue Thu 01-May-14 18:08:46

^ a friend^ sorry that should say friends! I have more than one and they all consider the convictions sound.

ohmymimi Thu 01-May-14 19:43:41

I'm afraid that Meredith's family is unlikely to get the full justice they deserve. And I don't think Knox will ever set foot on Italian soil again.

PortofinoRevisited Thu 01-May-14 19:56:38

This about face-saving. No more, no less. The whole thing is ridiculous. The only 'evidence' they had was shown to be unreliable. The proposed motives - and they have changed over time - are highly unlikely. Mignini, the prosecutor, was already up on charges of corruption before this happened. It was a trial of Amanda Knox by Daily Mail. An attempted burglary/sex attack by a black man does not sell papers in the way that 2 young, white, mc students does. I feel terribly for Meredith's family as this goes on and on and stays in the papers when it should have been resolved 7 years ago.

nennypops Thu 01-May-14 20:43:13

BookaBoo, the DNA argument goes both ways. But there's a difference between a tiny bit of DNA on a knife, and a total lack of two people's DNA in the room where the prosecution has to prove they were if any conviction is to stick.

BookABooSue Thu 01-May-14 20:47:03

Portofino we'll have to agree to differ yet again. I struggle with your inconsistency - choosing to trust one judgement from the court (the acquittal) whilst not respecting its other judgements is extremely similar to 'believing' one set of DNA results and not the others.

I doubt the Italian courts were influenced by the Daily Mail and the extensive press coverage is a direct result of the Knox family's decision to hire a PR firm.

BookABooSue Thu 01-May-14 20:48:42

Portofino we'll have to agree to differ yet again. I struggle with your inconsistency - choosing to trust one judgement from the court (the acquittal) whilst not respecting its other judgements is extremely similar to 'believing' one set of DNA results and not the others.

I doubt the Italian courts were influenced by the Daily Mail and the extensive press coverage is a direct result of the Knox family's decision to hire a PR firm.

PortofinoRevisited Thu 01-May-14 21:53:28

I am not inconsistent on this. There is no fucking evidence. None. There is no plausible motive. There is evidence that Rudi Guede committed the crime, however. And he had previous for breaking and entering and knife carrying. Even he, who was without doubt present that night, said that the other 2 weren't there. Until much, much later when he was thinking about his own prison term.

PortofinoRevisited Thu 01-May-14 21:58:43

He will be released soon, you know, whilst the fecking press keep going on about AK and Meredith's family not getting justice. It makes me furious.

PortofinoRevisited Thu 01-May-14 22:05:01

I didn't agree with the original judgement, and I don't agree with this recent one either. No inconsistency there. The DNA. Ah. Well RG was identified by his palm print - and arrested after he had fled the country. There were multiple instances of his DNA at the crime scene - but none from the other 2. Apart from the bra clasp which had been knocking round in the dust for weeks and also contained the DNA of 3 other unidentified people. This is not guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Floraclare Fri 02-May-14 15:15:53

It's shocking that even more nonsense has been made up. It would also seem that they have been convicted due to 'facts' that were created at Guede's trial - a trial at which neither Knox or Sollecito had no legal representation and it was also a fast track trial, which misses out the evidence stage and relies on just the prosecutions assertions. The recent report even uses claims made by Rudy Guede during police questioning as evidence, even though his claims have never been cross- examined by a court. I'm continually amazed that people are not outraged by this

People also have a huge misunderstanding of DNA evidence. The evidence presented did not involve conventional DNA tests, but involved low copy number DNA - LCN DNA is where you can't determine what substance the DNA came from and can be transferred easily by touch. This makes it incredibly easy to transfer by secondary and even tertiary means and you need to take special care and use special techniques to use LCN DNA. None of this was done and the independent experts strongly stated that the findings from the first trial, which claimed that Meredith's DNA was on the knife and that Sollecito's was on the bra clasp were severely flawed. Again I am amazed that people are not outraged that evidence that was widely criticised by independent experts, is being used again.

Guede was not found guilty just on DNA evidence, but due to his palm prints and footprints. As he had also not spent time at the cottage and had no recent contact with Meredith, LCN DNA has more validity as he had no reason to be at the cottage.

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