ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
Britain NOT a “Christian county” – since when??(203 Posts)
Generally speaking, when taking a snapshot of any country there are several nation traits most people just know about us that is made up of from a rich history and traditions, and Britain is no exception.
We have a monarchy, we speak English, our currency is the English Pound Sterling (lol), we still eat fish and chips out of a newspaper - and if you asked what our religion is, whether they knew about Henry VIII’s spat with the Pope or not, without the need to be specific they’d say we were ‘Christian’ – ask anyone.
Well not everyone, and certainly not the 55 ‘public figures’ that have accused Cameron for daring to point out the bleedin’ obvious, after nearly 1,000 years of international and domestic wars/conflicts, fought in the name of a ‘Christian’ religion – who accuse him of “mischaracterising” Britain, “fostering alienation” and argue that members of an elected government have no right to “actively prioritise” religion or any particular faith. Wh-at????
They argued that, apart from a “narrow constitutional sense”, there is no evidence to justify describing Britain as Christian, mainly because the 2011 Census saw a dramatic fall in those tick boxing ‘Christian’, wh-at???
Forgetting God for a moment, after several years now most citizens still won’t acknowledge that we have a honking great budget deficit and national debt - and that there has been the greatest recession since the 1930’s, yet there is far more historical and current evidence out there that it all exists - so don’t use dumb statistics of a Census that included those ticking ‘Jedi’ as a religion, to diss 1,000 years of our history.
Now I have no cares for looking into (and then trying to label) their political motives, but it seems rather ‘Leftie’ to me – and far too similar to this little bit of ‘social engineering’, designed to QUOTE “rub the Right’s nose in diversity”, by the last government.
“Labour wanted mass immigration to make UK more multicultural, says former adviser”
“Labour threw open Britain's borders to mass immigration to help socially engineer a "truly multicultural" country, a former Government adviser has revealed.”
So is this YET MORE ‘nose rubbing’ by Lefties into Righties in the name of ‘diversity’, as Cameron was not ‘doing down’ the other religions, who themselves would resist any notion that their OWN countries were secular, so rightly acknowledge that the UK is a ‘Christian’ country.
“David Cameron Christianity claim backed by religious groups”
Religious groups have backed Prime Minister David Cameron's assertion Britain is "a Christian country".
Hindu Council UK said it was "very comfortable" with the description. The Muslim Council of Britain said the UK was a largely Christian country.
So based on our proud history as an ethnic religiously TOLERENT nation and the role that ‘The Protestant Work Ethic’ had on our prosperity, who is to TELL OUR GOVERNMENT that we are NOT a ‘Christian’ country, or indeed that Christianity still has a role in today’s society - to help solve some of the work ethic problems that have grown within our society, now all the money has gone?
“Niall Ferguson - Killer 'apps': the ideas that propelled the west to world domination (see list at bottom of this link)”
6. Work ethic: As Max Weber noted a century ago, Protestantism was a form of Christianity that encouraged hard work (and just as importantly, Ferguson adds, reading and saving). It isn't a coincidence, he says, that the decline of religion in Europe has led to Europeans becoming the "idlers of the world" (while the more religious US has remained hard-working). Interestingly, Ferguson also argues that China's embrace of hard work is partly because of the spread there of Protestantism.
We had 13-years of ‘Lefties’ running our government, their Quangocracy, most of our media, our education system, the police etc etc etc.
So (from a lapsed CoE ‘weddings and funerals only’ citizen) god help us as a monarchy, an individual State with proud traditions/rights and our prosperity, when they get back in and finish off the destructive job to the British way of life they started in 1997, and left as a work in progress, in 2010.
Noting Ukip’s prominence come this election and the frightening thought that Farage believes that Ukip could hold the balance of power in the next General Election.
IF repeat IF the UK politically felt the need to change it’s ‘Christian’ designation for votes now and in the future (see link below), on some misplaced view that people in this country don’t care, it would be a grave mistake for the obvious reason.
“Ethnic minorities 'could be almost a third of UK population by 2050', claims think-tank”
Do not forget that it was the open door immigration issue, EU and other more ‘secretive’ agendas from Labour that gave Ukip (and initially the BNP with splinter groups setting up since) their growing support and where we find our self today, having to listen several times a day to a political party with dodgy motives and few real policies.
So I can’t think of a better future Recruitment Sergeant for the likes of Ukip than a UK government deciding that society ‘needs’ to change Britain FROM a Christian religious umbrella where all other religions are free to worship, to something far more convoluted – needing time consuming constitutional change – especially if sprung on the electorate mid term, rather than applying for a mandate through a general election manifesto.
Furthermore, what religious can of worms would be opened if each non Christian religion were to somehow be represented in, say, parliament, as there are many cases here and throughout the world where there is strife intra religion, just think of the time consuming political bun fights both intra and inter, as they al vie for position as the Uk tries to fix what ain’t broke - as If schooling is the issue, people are free to set up their own.
Seriously some of these comments are fabulous. I remember a long rambling post about what would happen if you were raptured away while driving your car.
The verdict was that it wouldn't matter because the people left behind would clearly be sinners so crashing into them would be irrelevant.
The best thing about the site is that you get the direct links to the crazy fundie forums.
Thank you for that link. Any chance I ever had of getting off the internet at some point this year has just gone.
May I direct your attention to this fabulous website?
Hours of fun/horror/disbelief.
It's rather appropriate in the context of this thread.
>I am not interested in talking about the Labour Party. Why do you keep trying to change the subject?
well, the subject is on the card (ie in the OP) ... most of the posters on this thread are interested in a serious debate about the opening gambit of 'Christian country', from a secularist perspective - but the OP has a general anti-'leftie', anti-immigration agenda.
I think she has seized on the 'Christian country' thing in an 'us vs them' way. In fact, the various non-Christian faith bodies are happy to keep the status quo of religious privilege - because they get a part of it. They get a seat on 'interfaith' groups; they get to open their own religious schools; the rules currently allow for schools to be converted to faith status by a governors coup; they get representation which the large proportion of religiously unaligned don't benefit from.
If she wants to defend against fundamentalists, she would do better to espouse the secularist cause and do away with all this privilege and discrimination.
re the 60% Christian. My understanding is that about 60% described themselves as Christian, yes, but when asked a supplementary question "are you religious" that figure fell to 29%. I think from that it is clear that people call themselves Christian because they feel that this is a Christian country, rather than that they have a faith and belief in Jesus as their personal saviour. iyswim.
If you don't find it strange that not a single person has come along to back you up then fair enough. You are however contradicting yourself when you state that there is 'no democratic reason to change'. You acknowledged several pages back that the current system is undemocratic but you said, ''I DON'T CARE' (your caps not mine).
I am not interested in talking about the Labour Party. Why do you keep trying to change the subject?
What evidence do you have to state that there is no democratic reason to change our religious status
Most people in this country are not Christian.
So why should Christianity have such power?
Why should faith schools receive state funding?
Why should we have Bishops in the House of Lords?
Why should the PM choose senior Bishops?
Why should the Monarch be Head of the CofE?
Why should schools have a daily act of collective worship of a mainly Christian nature?
If you could answer those - without a rant about Labour and immigration, that would be interesting.
Floisme….frankly I don’t care who “supports” me, especially if other posters either accept my basic view that there is no democratic reason to change our religious status, or I might have upset them on other issues elsewhere. Lol
As I said I’m not big on any of the changes being hoisted on this country due to bad political judgement; from basic economic incompetence, the selling of our already small gold reserves, any political attacks on our monarchy, giving up our sovereignty by being in the EU superstate without knowing all the facts from both sides - and losing Scotland from within the UK, although totally accept if that is their will, it has been democratically arrived at.
But what seriously bunches my undies, even more than not being given a vote on serious issues that I know about, is a far reaching governmental policy that as they know it will be ‘unpopular’, they decide to keep it secret amongst themselves.
So the rest of my points ON THIS POST/THREAD re immigration and Labour, were a warning to those who share my views with some FACTS (not blind political hatred as ‘spun’) on the last administration, as they have form on attacking things British for political and/or power gains.
We know in 2001 at the latest that Labour had chosen mass immigration to add diversity to this country and make a political statement to the Right and the increased non EU immigrant figures I’ve already given here on a table, despite our domestic shortages of jobs and homes at the time – which funny old world, also enhances their re election chances.
Yet no one has either justified or excused this policy TO ME e.g. the 2000’s social benefits of that ‘in touch’ Labour policy, or the jobs/homes shortages consequences – and I find that more telling than ‘the meek’ , standing up against those with louder and deflecting voices, on here.
“The rise of religious fundamentalists with a 'deep intolerance' to other people's views has made Christians reluctant to express their beliefs, Dominic Grieve warns”
“Christians are increasingly reluctant to express their religious views because they are being “turned off” by the “disturbing” and “very damaging” rise of religious fundamentalism, the Attorney General has said.”
Is Gabbyloggon back?
Gabby is that you??
We are not on trial for all things Christian for hundreds of years before,
Well, OP you tried to take credit for 1000s of years of Christian activity so it's a little late to back out of it now.
Btw I'm pretty sure the Labour Party traveled back in time and killed Jesus if you want another reason to hate them.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
"All these pages of replies and no-one's pulled OP up on the "still eat fish and chips out of a newspaper" statement? Good analogy for Christianity in today's Britain though..."
It's funny, actually, I remember intending to respond to that but didn't. When did chip shops stop using newspapers to wrap up fish and chips? It must have been years and years ago. Still, one quality the OP doesn't possess (among a lot of others) is a sense of historical perspective.
I know quite a few Christians, including one Vicar, who are members of the National Secular Society because they oppose the damage that privileging Christianity above other faiths or none does to UK society.
All these pages of replies and no-one's pulled OP up on the "still eat fish and chips out of a newspaper" statement? Good analogy for Christianity in today's Britain though...
60% consider themselves Christian?
I take it that's based on the census - you seem to be ignoring more reliable survey data.
What real difference will it make to our lives if we don't have a State religion?
Maybe - children won't be expected to do an act of collective worship.
Maybe faith schools won't be able to take state funding and exclude children who aren't born to religious parents.
Maybe the Monarch will not be the Head of the Church. Perhaps that could fall to the Archbishop of Canterbury rather than a Monarch.
I'm sure our country is perfectly capable of joining the rest of most of the modern world in not having a state religion.
Op there are a number of regular posters who hold anti-secular, anti-immigration or anti-labour party views (although not necessarily all 3 together). Yet I don't think a single of of them has come on here to support you, even though this thread has been running for several days. I wonder why not? Please think about it.
You're doing a pretty good job of discrediting yourself TBH OP.
Are only "mental patients" (not my words) with or without nurses on meds?
Interesting how some people try to discredit people for their views, radical or political, I wonder.
I'll take my "state-imposed religious privileges" (yeah right) elsewhere, or from from this thread anyway,
>our Christianity does not affect non Christians within this country
You appear to be trying to speak on behalf of all non-Christians. Thanks but we can manage that for ourselves. Individual believers Christianity does not significantly affect me; state-imposed religious privileges do.
>I would suggest that if we even half consider changing our Christian status, as we are a democracy we include the definitive question in the next Census.
Of course, the answer would depend on exactly what question was posed - 'Christian status' could mean various entirely different things. No-one is wanting Christian culture to be discarded as far as I'm aware.
The specific question might be 'should the Church of England be disestablished' but unfortunately I'm not sure many people would really understand what it meant. Simpler, more specific,questions might glean different answers, but they're not the sort of thing that the census gets into (.
How about this:
'Should any group be either discriminated against or privileged on the basis of any religious belief.'
Also I've reported your comment to Corus because that was personal and offensive - especially you have previously had a go at other posters for making personal comments.
our Christianity does not affect non Christians within this country
Only it does. Church and state are intertwined. Schools, for example, include religious education, because of this. It affects me because I would give my right arm for my DC to be bought up without any suggestion of a religious education which pushed one religion over another. RE is good; learning about all the different religious is good; a school, a state, saying this is what you should believe, this is what our country says is the default religion and you should learn more about than other religions... I don't like that at all. That affects me.
I think this should stop now. It is beyond embarrassing.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.