Britain NOT a “Christian county” – since when??

(203 Posts)
Isitmebut Tue 22-Apr-14 14:59:00

Generally speaking, when taking a snapshot of any country there are several nation traits most people just know about us that is made up of from a rich history and traditions, and Britain is no exception.

We have a monarchy, we speak English, our currency is the English Pound Sterling (lol), we still eat fish and chips out of a newspaper - and if you asked what our religion is, whether they knew about Henry VIII’s spat with the Pope or not, without the need to be specific they’d say we were ‘Christian’ – ask anyone.

Well not everyone, and certainly not the 55 ‘public figures’ that have accused Cameron for daring to point out the bleedin’ obvious, after nearly 1,000 years of international and domestic wars/conflicts, fought in the name of a ‘Christian’ religion – who accuse him of “mischaracterising” Britain, “fostering alienation” and argue that members of an elected government have no right to “actively prioritise” religion or any particular faith. Wh-at????
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10777270/David-Cameron-fuelling-sectarian-division-by-bringing-God-into-politics.html

They argued that, apart from a “narrow constitutional sense”, there is no evidence to justify describing Britain as Christian, mainly because the 2011 Census saw a dramatic fall in those tick boxing ‘Christian’, wh-at???

Forgetting God for a moment, after several years now most citizens still won’t acknowledge that we have a honking great budget deficit and national debt - and that there has been the greatest recession since the 1930’s, yet there is far more historical and current evidence out there that it all exists - so don’t use dumb statistics of a Census that included those ticking ‘Jedi’ as a religion, to diss 1,000 years of our history.

Now I have no cares for looking into (and then trying to label) their political motives, but it seems rather ‘Leftie’ to me – and far too similar to this little bit of ‘social engineering’, designed to QUOTE “rub the Right’s nose in diversity”, by the last government.

“Labour wanted mass immigration to make UK more multicultural, says former adviser”

“Labour threw open Britain's borders to mass immigration to help socially engineer a "truly multicultural" country, a former Government adviser has revealed.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

So is this YET MORE ‘nose rubbing’ by Lefties into Righties in the name of ‘diversity’, as Cameron was not ‘doing down’ the other religions, who themselves would resist any notion that their OWN countries were secular, so rightly acknowledge that the UK is a ‘Christian’ country.

“David Cameron Christianity claim backed by religious groups”
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27105023

Religious groups have backed Prime Minister David Cameron's assertion Britain is "a Christian country".

Hindu Council UK said it was "very comfortable" with the description. The Muslim Council of Britain said the UK was a largely Christian country.

So based on our proud history as an ethnic religiously TOLERENT nation and the role that ‘The Protestant Work Ethic’ had on our prosperity, who is to TELL OUR GOVERNMENT that we are NOT a ‘Christian’ country, or indeed that Christianity still has a role in today’s society - to help solve some of the work ethic problems that have grown within our society, now all the money has gone?

“Niall Ferguson - Killer 'apps': the ideas that propelled the west to world domination (see list at bottom of this link)”
www.theguardian.com/books/2011/feb/20/niall-ferguson-interview-civilization

6. Work ethic: As Max Weber noted a century ago, Protestantism was a form of Christianity that encouraged hard work (and just as importantly, Ferguson adds, reading and saving). It isn't a coincidence, he says, that the decline of religion in Europe has led to Europeans becoming the "idlers of the world" (while the more religious US has remained hard-working). Interestingly, Ferguson also argues that China's embrace of hard work is partly because of the spread there of Protestantism.

We had 13-years of ‘Lefties’ running our government, their Quangocracy, most of our media, our education system, the police etc etc etc.

So (from a lapsed CoE ‘weddings and funerals only’ citizen) god help us as a monarchy, an individual State with proud traditions/rights and our prosperity, when they get back in and finish off the destructive job to the British way of life they started in 1997, and left as a work in progress, in 2010.

Isitmebut Tue 22-Apr-14 16:52:42

Floiseme...you asked me a question, I replied, I know that we are a Christian country, my post is about the ones who don't..

member Tue 22-Apr-14 16:52:58

Ever considered starting a blog Isitmebut?

Isitmebut Tue 22-Apr-14 16:59:15

Nah member...I understand ttosca writes one, and I guess you then have to go for quantity over quality of opinions, even if those reading your 'pearls' don't appreciate them. lol

claig Tue 22-Apr-14 18:38:30

I don't think Cameron can be taken seriously. We are a Christian country, but it almost looks as if Cameron is trying to be conservative to win back some votes. Next, he'll probably tell us that he is conservative.

"In an article for the Daily Mail, Lord Carey says many Christians doubt the PM's "sincerity" when he pledges to protect their religious freedoms and accuses ministers of "aiding and abetting" discrimination against believers.

He points to Government plans to legalise gay marriage as evidence of an "aggressive secularist and relativist approach" and argues that Mr Cameron has fed Christian "anxieties" more than "any other recent political leader".

...

Lord Carey expresses alarm about Labour MP Chris Bryant's campaign to turn the 700-year-old Parliamentary chapel of St Mary Undercroft into a multi-faith prayer room so that gay couples can get married there.

Chris Bryant
Lord Carey slammed Chris Bryant's campaign for gay marriages in Parliament

But he also directly calls into question the Prime Minister's actions, saying: "I like David Cameron and believe he is genuinely sincere in his desire to make Britain a generous nation where we care for one another and where people of faith may exercise their beliefs fully.

"But it was a bit rich to hear that the Prime Minister has told religious leaders that they should 'stand up and oppose aggressive secularisation' when it seems that his Government is aiding and abetting this aggression every step of the way.

"At his pre-Easter Downing Street reception for faith leaders, he said that he supported Christians' right to practise their faith. Yet many Christians doubt his sincerity.

"According to a new ComRes poll more than two thirds of Christians feel that they are part of a 'persecuted minority'. Their fears may be exaggerated because few in the UK are actually persecuted, but the Prime Minister has done more than any other recent political leader to feed these anxieties.

"He seems to have forgotten in spite of his oft-repeated support for the right of Christians to wear the cross, that lawyers acting for the coalition argued only months ago in the Strasbourg court that those sacked for wearing a cross against their employer's wishes should simply get another job."

news.sky.com/story/1071641/lord-carey-attacks-david-cameron-on-religion

Floisme Tue 22-Apr-14 18:42:41

Ok op, I just thought you might be interested in discussing whether it was actually good for democracy. Clearly I was wrong, cheerio.

claig Tue 22-Apr-14 18:42:45

And as for Cameron saying that Jesus started the Big Society. This is from the Telegraph

"This plan is directly based on the successful community organising movement established by Saul Alinsky in the United States and has successfully trained generations of community organisers, including President Obama."

That statement, which beggars belief even in the political fairground we now inhabit, is not taken from some far-out Trotskyite samizdat, but from the official Conservative Party introduction to David Cameron’s Big Idea – the creation of a “Neighbourhood army” of 5,000 full-time community organisers to implement his grotesque fantasy called “Big Society”. If you ever doubted that, under Cameron, the Conservative Party has become ideologically and culturally deracinated, has lost its political compass and is occupied by an alien clique that has disfigured it beyond recognition, here is the incontestable evidence.

Saul Alinsky is here openly acknowledged as the inspiration behind Cameron’s “Big Idea”. Alinsky was the lifelong cultural revolutionary and political subversive whom Barack Obama formerly claimed as his “spiritual mentor”; since Obama hit mainstream politics, however, his supporters have expended a vast amount of effort on trying to conceal that embarrassing history. The aggressively amoral Alinsky believed there was no right or wrong in politics, only what was necessary to seize power (well, Dave and his gang would buy that).

Yet the Conservative Party blurts out this admission in the launch document of Big Society. There is a pedantic debate over whether Alinsky was technically a Marxist, or by-passed Marx as old-hat. What is beyond question is his project to overthrow capitalist society and to do so through infiltration of political parties, institutions and, above all, by the use of “community organisers”. Anybody who thought claims on this blog of Cultural Marxism influencing even the Tory Party were exaggerated can now think again. Alinsky was the first begetter of ACORN, the sinister organisation that tried to gerrymander the American electorate.

What is going on here? Who is running the Cameronian Party – Common Purpose? How is it conceivable that even the most bland, politically correct, centre-right “conservative” party could derive its flagship policy from the thinking of Alinsky, whose seminal work Rules for Radicals was dedicated to Lucifer ?

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100032381/david-camerons-big-society-is-a-grotesque-fantasy-inspired-by-leftist-subversive-saul-alinsky/

ttosca Tue 22-Apr-14 18:46:33

Isitmebut-

> Slug....we are a Christian country, it is good to hear that will remain so with Cameron.

You don't quite get it, do you? You can't make a country Christian or any other religion by decree.

Of course the UK has a strong Christian heritage. That's undeniable. Modern Britain is much more diversified, and has the letter indicates:

"Repeated surveys, polls and studies show that most of us as individuals are not Christian in our beliefs or our religious identities. "

yougov.co.uk/news/2012/02/17/britain-christian-country/

I think that's probably the most important thing - whether its people identify as Christian - when considering whether a country is 'Christian' or not - don't you think?

Follow the link. 50% of people don't consider themselves to have any religion - nevermind Christianity.

ttosca Tue 22-Apr-14 18:48:23

Also, David Cameron is not Christian either. He is using Christianity to shore up support from Christian conservatives.

He's a cunt:

David Cameron's constituency office calls police on food bank campaigners Bishop of Oxford and Reverend Keith Hebden

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-constituency-office-calls-police-on-food-bank-campaigners-bishop-of-oxford-and-reverend-keith-hebden-9274303.html

Isitmebut Tue 22-Apr-14 22:45:44

ttosca….it appears that most of the real ‘lefties’ don’t identify themselves with the values and traditions of Great Britain, especially ones with a ‘potty mouth’ like you – who STILL refuse to link Labour’s policies to encourage welfare dependency, Labour’s ‘open door’ immigration that let in a net 2.5 million of mainly NON EU citizens to UK jobs, and Cameron’s food bank claimants – for what, a Miliband-esk (Oxbridge/Marxist debating society) social engineering experiment, the non EU general election votes to keep their sorry ar$es in power, or both??????

Can you still not tell me WHY the Labour in 2004 with over 500,000 16-24 years old unemployed and a housing shortage back then, made worse by Brown’s ‘no more boom or busts’ financial lending explosion - thought that this would help the then multi cultural people of the UK get jobs and homes SO THEY WOULD NOT NEED FOOD PARCELS when Labour’s reckless spending HAD to be reigned in, on the first major recession?

Come on ttosca, what was the ‘joined up policy thinking’ of Labour’s policies on immigration and the indigenous population without jobs and homes consequences of which. were dumped on Cameron?

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/long-term-international-migration-flows-and-uk
“Please note that the LTIM estimates used in this briefing are being revised by the ONS. In their 'Quality of Long-Term International Migration estimates from 2001 to 2011' report published on 10th April 2014, the ONS has revised the total net migration estimates for 2001-2011; this suggests that the total net-migration between 2001 and 2011 was underestimated by 346,000 net-migrants.”

New migration therefore is changed over a decade from just under 2.2 million to over 2.5 million.

Table 1... Inflows (thousands)…...EU……….Commonwealth………Other…...
Average 1991 – 1999……………...60,000………...87,000…………..….86,000
Average 2000 – 2003……….…..…62,000……….101,000………… ...120,000
2004……………………………......…..130,000……….215,000…………..…155,000
2005………………………………........152,000……….180,000………….….137,000
2006………………………………........170,000………..201,000…………….143,000
2007……………………..........….....195,000……....174,000………….…131,000

And here is the report that ADDS to the above EU figures.
“Immigration from eastern Europe was massively underestimated, says official report”
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10757336/Immigration-from-eastern-Europe-was-massively-underestimated-says-official-report.html

Or was the "rubbing the rights nose in diversity" really for the votes as EU citizens cannot vote in UK General Elections?

“Million foreign voters could sway result of next general election, warns report”

“A million Commonwealth citizens living in England and Wales should be stripped of the right to vote because they could significantly influence the outcome of the next general election, according to a new report”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10268870/Million-foreign-voters-could-sway-result-of-next-general-election-warns-report.html

“MigrationWatch UK said the general public would be “astonished” to learn how many non-Britons are permitted to take part in elections.”

“The group, which campaigns for tighter immigration, said it was a “hangover from the days of Empire” that citizens from 54 independent sovereign states, including Australia, Canada and India, can register on the electoral roll as long as they have an address in Britain.”

“MigrationWatch’s report said: “One possible reason why Lord Goldsmith’s report was largely ignored by the Labour government of the day is that voters from black and minority ethnic communities, some of whom will be Commonwealth citizens, are far more likely to vote Labour than Liberal Democrat or Conservative.”

“A report last year by the Runnymede Trust showed 68 per cent of black and Asian people backed Labour in the last general election, said the study, which also suggested the Commonwealth vote could be influential in the referendum on European Union membership.”

It makes you wonder why a potential 500 million from Europe wasn't good enough for Labour.

Isitmebut Tue 22-Apr-14 23:02:30

P.S. ttosca is this your ‘leftie’ part in APPEALING to that vote, pathetically citing several dopey Conservative councillors as “the Modern Conservative Party”?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/politics/2052280-Modern-Tories-on-rape-Down-syndrome-Pakistani-children-and-black-people

For years under Labour ‘we the people’ were accused on being racist if daring to THINK, never mind write, that Labour’s policies on immigration and everyone else’s religion bar Christianity, was tilting the wrong way for British society.

The damage to Britain’s financial and social infrastructure by Labour is unforgivable, as none of this existed in 1997 when Labour took over, yet you drop the ‘c-bomb’ on Cameron rather than most of the Labour administration currently in opposition? Idiot.

Isitmebut Wed 23-Apr-14 00:45:56

Claig, claig, claig…I can’t believe that you or Ukip would have the (national) front to accuse any mainstream politician, never mind Cameron, of not being able to be taken seriously – as Ukip is an empty shell of policies and integrity, who cynically oppose everything for votes and as SHOULD it stand on any issue as it cannot change anything, it is just a ‘protest party’ – and no matter how successful they are in the Euro Elections, that can not change,

So why get so carried away critising the other parties when Ukip have nothing to offer the electorate but ‘protests’, and it wasn’t so long ago they fought a whole General Election on a religious issue, well the burqa, does that count as Ukip’s current moral compass on all things religious?

“Ukip Founder Alan Sked Says The Party Is 'Morally Dodgy' And 'Extraordinarily Right-Wing'”

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/26/ukip-founder-alan-sked-morally-dodgy_n_2190987.html
David Cameron has been under fire for dismissing the UK Independence Party (Ukip) as a party of "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists", in a now-notorious radio interview in 2006.

However, he may have won support from an unusual quarter - the founder and former leader of Ukip, Professor Alan Sked, says the party he launched in 1993 has become "extraordinarily right-wing" and is now devoted to "creating a fuss, via Islam and immigrants. They've got nothing to say on mainstream issues."

"Its extraordinary," Sked told the HuffPost UK, "that at the last general election, with the country facing the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, [Ukip's] flagship policy was to ban the burqa."

"They're not an intellectually serious party. Their views on immigrants and on [banning] the burqa are morally dodgy."

And looking at their current poster campaign, having opposed the Conservative mobile advertisements, giving telephone help numbers to those that may want to leave the UK, has anything changed for the one-trick-pony-party????????????

P.S. What is Ukip’s version of ‘The Big Society’ and religion, the same as their cynical view on Syrian Refuges when they thought they could score political points – initially ‘Let Syrian Refugees in’, then when the ex BNP followers of Ukip went vocal, it was ‘as long as they are Christian’. Marvellous.

Boudica1990 Wed 23-Apr-14 00:55:24

I find its very simple to see what religion governs you country or what religion it associates with most.

Walk in to your town centre.... Look at what is smack bang in the middle of the town square....ahhh yes a fricking church hmm

Walk down a street in Afghanistan or Pakistan, wait listen....ahhh yes the call to pray is sounding off.

The head of state is head of the church, in the census report a large proportion registered themselves as Christian. Many of UK law is based on Christian values, we have Christian public holidays.

As for other countries they have their religious holidays are based on that countries main religeon.

As much as a secular Britain is great, it really is. Stripped back to its hard bones its a Christian nation in principle.

Custardo Wed 23-Apr-14 01:07:11

religion should have no place in government. the unelected bishops in the house of lords was a very good point raised that you failed to address

Isitmebut Wed 23-Apr-14 01:13:01

Good points....and in my view NOT to acknowledge that we are principally a Christian nation, is going down a slippery slope, especially as it emboldens other nations/religions to try and force their laws into ours - which no doubt the Lefties would encourage, probably campaign for..

fidelineish Wed 23-Apr-14 01:14:34

What a bizarre thread.

OP if you don't mention bishops, no=one else can? Is that the rule you are attempting to impose?

CorusKate Wed 23-Apr-14 01:28:33

OP, have you considered toning down the formatting a little? Your posts are tricky enough to read as it is.

Isitmebut Wed 23-Apr-14 01:36:18

Custardo…are you talking to me on ‘the bishops’, as I didn’t raise the issue and said so – however if there was a point put to me I didn’t get it.

FYI I am a supporter of the upper house, or Lords, as it provides checks and balances to the lower house, just imagine a Labour government with 100-seat majorities in parliament WITHOUT them, by now they’d only need 10% of the vote to get elected.

Re the Bishops-in-der House, I have no objections as we need bright Lords, we can’t have a Lords full of thick ‘class warriors’ intellectually incapable of scrutinising complex legislation.

Re mixing religion in government, I have my own views on that, starting with getting them up to speed on what a Great Recession is - and breaking it to them that there are ‘poor people’ who spend more on fags and booze and tech equipment than food - and having had a child solely as a means to an end of obtaining a social home, often their pets eat better than their children. IMO.

Isitmebut Wed 23-Apr-14 01:41:25

CorusKate ...no.

fidelineish .....if that's the best you can do, I'm going to bed, knock yourself out with your picky $hit with someone else.

fidelineish Wed 23-Apr-14 01:42:20

I get emails resembling these posts when my lovely bi-polar friend has problems with her meds. (Which is meant to be an illuminating rather than offensive observation and well, sod it look at the time it is).

If you could slow down, post more sparingly and, as corus says, dimplify formatting, it really would help smile

CorusKate Wed 23-Apr-14 01:43:47

Oh god, don't tell her to dimplify it; she'll find a way to get a recessed effect or something, too.

fidelineish Wed 23-Apr-14 01:44:29

X post.

Maybe it is actually the aggression it looked like, after all [confused[

fidelineish Wed 23-Apr-14 01:46:11

My typos are getting worse blush

But, hey, texturised posts might be interesting! I'm not going to hold my breath for intelligible on this one, so interesting would be something.

CorusKate Wed 23-Apr-14 01:48:31

Possibly, fidelineish - I wouldn't worry too much about the mental well being of someone who one minute criticises others for having a "potty mouth" and dropping the "c-bomb", and the next spouts aggression directly at someone and uses the word "shit" (yes, it's still shit even if you use a dollar sign, just like c**t is simply an alternative spelling of cunt - it all decodes to the same thing).

CorusKate Wed 23-Apr-14 01:49:24

I like dimplify, as a word.

Isitmebut Wed 23-Apr-14 01:52:07

fidelineish...it's funny how you read about trolls who try to stifle anti-leftie views, the measure of them is the quality of their argument or input on a number of issues - and funny old world I don't remember you - so frankly I don't give a flying what you think.

And the more comments/insults I get like that from the bottom-wipes, the more I know I getting my message across - and feel a strong need to get more things off my chest.

Everyone worry about their own input, if you don't like mine, don't read it.

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