Nursery fined for banning boy age 4.

[Jimjams]

Story is here

Not sure what they mean by "a condition similar to AS". Sounds as if he's high functioning autistic and no-one's bothered to diagnose yet.

Anyway I was pleased that the nursery has been fined, because to be honest a lot of nurseries are useless with children on the spectum (or "full" and do real damage (we're still affected by a nursery that ds1 left at 22 months- he's 4 and a half now). No doubt others will disagree so discuss

[Freckle]

From reading the article, it seems that this was a lot more involved than the nursery just expelling the child because of his condition - in fact the judge said that they had not discriminated against him on the grounds of his condition. It seems that it was more a case of the nursery breaching the agreement reached when they agreed to take the child.

I think that a lot of nurseries (and indeed some schools) are useless with children who don't conform, whether through some diagnosed condition or just through individuality. I think many lose sight of the fact that children are children and all behave differently. There is such pressure on children to be "good", i.e. sit still and be quiet, that no allowance is made for those who find this difficult, particularly boys.

Perhaps this case will make a lot of nurseries think twice before simply washing their hands of a child who doesn't conform.

[SoupDragon]

I disagree with the statement "He was only 4 and can?t have hit her that hard". It can be b**y painful being hit by a child wielding a toy!

I can't help feeling that there must be more to the story than is shown in that report though. The nursery seems to have reacted in a strange manner if this was an isolated incident. If it had been the latest in a long line of similar incidents and the mother had refused to help them deal with it, I can see how they might react like that. As it stands, it simply doesn't make sense though (at least not to me).

Obviously as I have no experience of this I can't really discuss this but Jimjams, when you say that "a lot of nurseries are useless with children on the spectum" is the problem not with the nursery as such but more with the support they are given to cope with AS children or any SN children in fact? In reality, can you expect a nursery to immediately be able to cope with any particular SN child they may have without specialist help with how to cope with them?

[coppertop]

I think it seems a bit odd that the nursery would go to the trouble of drawing up a contract with the mother in the first place and then ignoring it. I would be interested to know whose idea the contract was and why. Did the mother suspect that something like this might happen, or did the nursery insist on it?

I think that how well a nursery manages with an autistic child depends on the child themselves and the outlook of the nursery. Ds1 is doing brilliantly at his pre-school and the staff have no specific training in autism and no extra support provided. The key thing is communication between the parent(s) and the staff. The staff need to have an idea of what triggers the child's meltdowns so that they can work around these. They also need to know if there are any other factors involved on that particular day. In the news item the mother mentions that the boy had reacted to some medicine from the night before. I wonder if she had told the staff about this and, if so, whether they took this into consideration before the incident happened.

Some nurseries/pre-schools do expect children to line up nicely, sit down on the floor nicely etc. Not every autistic child can manage this, eg because they can't tolerate being too close too people. A good nursery can work around this by minimising the amount of time spent this way or perhaps allowing the child to sit at the edge of the carpet area so that they are not too close. Ds1 tends to sit right at the back of the carpet area where he feels most comfortable.

I think there is more to this story than just what was in the link.

[Jimjams]

I can talk from my experience and that of my friend's. DS1 went to a nursery at 18 monthss. He had no diagnosis, and wasn't a lot of hassle- he didn't hit other children (or adults) and tended to spend the time lolling in the ball pool or reading books. He was not good a circle time. Before he joined I explained that he found using a spoon difficult. and they said that wasn't a problem (I didn't know he was dyspraxic at the time). So I was rather pissed off to turn up one day to find him howling on the floor becuase he hadn't been allowed pudding because he'd been eating chicken nuggets with his fingers! He hasn't eaten meat to this day. I was even more pissed off to turn up a few weeks later and find him sitting in a room by himself. I won't even go into the accusations the staff made to me (it was my fault he wasn't talking apparently).

Anyway- the point being- you didn't particularly need to be a rocket scientisti to deal with my son- he needed slightly more attnetion that other kids at the time- because was ultra passive. I have heard horror stories from other mother's and was terrified about sending him to nursery again. His nursery now are simply wonderful. They don't have special training but they treat him like a human.

I suspect that Freckle's post has a lot of truth in it. The evil nursery we took him out of was a big chain nursery and I knewother mother's who removed their (NT) children for similar sorts of things (eg one boy took "too long" to potty train- he wasn't even 3).

Read through the SN threads though- it's very common for a nursery to suddenly become "full" (and a school) when they find out the child is autistic. Many nurseries etc just can't be bothered.

Agree with coppertop- communication is the key. School is gooing well as I talk to the LSA every day and as soon as any problems crop up my opinion is asked and we work it out together. Too many places can't be bothered.

[Jimjams]

My friend's little boy left school after he bit his LSA. They took him into assembly FFS! He gave plenty of warning that he was going to bite (by growling). SUrely its not that difficult to recognise distress in a child. Serves the LSA right imo (for being so stupid). The ultimate responsibility came down to the Head though. She refused to allow the autism outreach team to visit, and refused meetings with my friend. This little boy is now being home edded- and about to start an ABA programme at a cost of over 20 thousand a year to the parents. Whilst I'm suire the ABA programme is the best thing for him, and whilst they will try to get the LEA to fund it- it's not right that it comes to this.

[cazzybabs]

Out of interest (and I am sure this has been raised on the inclusive thread) but should every nursery/school take children with SEN? I am not being agressive or anything nasty I am just intersted in your views. I teach and I know that I would struggle with an austic child. If the teacher/nursery nurse is not qualilfied (I did a PGCE and very limited trainning on dealing with SEN although have since read several books and read the posts on here ( - a whole other debate on the rubbishness of teacher training)) is it fair on that child or other children in the school or the teacher to take that child? And what if you take a child on and then find you can't cope with his/her behaviour and its putting other children/your self in danger. You have talked on other treads on how long the statementing process takes - so really turning to the LEA for immediate help is fairly useless I guess. I don't know what the answer is - what would you do if it was your austistic child in a school that was failing his needs? Or your child was in a class with an austic child and you worried for your child's safety and education.

On the other hand I am all in favour if inclusive education before you shout at me

[Freckle]

The key really is communication - open lines of communication between school/nursery and the parents. The mother in the report said she'd had no indication that there was a problem, despite the specific terms of the agreement.

When DS1 started infant school, I thought he might have problems. Nothing specific, just that he was better in small groups, was very bright and needed challenging, etc., and I suspected that infant school probably wouldn't recognise this. I did point it out to them, but, of course, my words were ignored and we ended up with a series of complaints from the school about his behaviour. Now this is a "normal" child - no medical conditions or recognised behavioural problems. When problems did arise, I would discuss them with the school and we would work out a strategy to deal with them (one strategy being that they gave him work commensurate with his ability rather than trying to hold him back with the majority - not a popular proposal with his teacher as it would clearly make her job more difficult), and we eventually overcame any difficulties. However, had the school chosen not to inform me of problems, this wouldn't have been possible.

It is clear that the mother in the report was aware there might be problems - where else have you heard of a contract being drawn up in these terms between a nursery and parent? However, the fact that the nursery had agreed to act in a certain way in the event of problems and then didn't act in that way was clearly the root of the case.

[Jimjams]

crazybabs- every child is entitled to an eudcation "suitable to their needs". Autistic children can be challenging, and they can be aggessive- but they are not necessarily more intrinsically aggressive than any other child- they become aggressive through misunderstandings or becuase they are put in a situation where they feel trapped, or becuase they are unable to communicate in any other way. If their needs are being met the agressive incidents should be few and far between.

When my son started his school they had no experience of a non-verbal child. The first time he met his teacher he slapped her round the face. Once I'd recovered enough to explain that he didn't like queuing- the school were great. Both the teacher and SENCO said that it was their fault and they should have arranged for him to come in seperately- this is the communication that Freckle is talking about. The reason its going so well at school is that they LISTEN. Both to me and to the extra profesionals that go it (autism outreach, SALT, Ed psych and SN IT). A child who is as far along the spectrum as my son wouldn't be starting without help. I know that in the past when the school has taken on AS kids and the help hasn't been in place they have refused to have them full time until the LEA has got its arse in gear. This is the key really. The school taking a positive attitude- "it can work if we do x, y and z" and lots and lots of communication between parents and school. The absolute worse case is a school that pretends to know what its doing and then proceeds to make a complete pigs ear of it. Unfortunately that is extremely common.

[coppertop]

cazzybabs - I think a lot would depend on the child and how well (or not!) they would be able to cope. Ds1 (3yrs 8mths) is at the high-functioning end of the spectrum. If you were to watch him at playgroup for an entire morning you probably wouldn't even guess that he was any different to the other children. So far the professionals who work with him have all been unanimous in saying that he will do really well at school and that he is very easy to teach.

Over the last few weeks I have been to meetings with his future Reception teacher, the playgroup staff and the professionals who work with him (see my thread on "Starting school in September - As usual I need your wisdom!" thread over in the Special Needs section). One thing that seems to have come up over and over again is how the extra measures needed for ds1 would be of enormous benefit to the rest of his class too. For example, ds1 is a very visual learner and likes to know in advance what is going to happen. The Early Years team suggested putting up a timetable on the wall to show what is going to happen on that day, using symbols and words. The Reception teacher thought this would be great for the rest of the class and would help them to settle into their new school routine.

Every child is different though. Ds1 is fairly passive and has never hurt another child at playgroup, even when other children have hurt him. One child bit him so hard that even though ds1 was wearing a jumper and coat, the boys teethmarks were imprinted on his arm for almost a week. Any other child would probably have retaliated or at least shouted. Ds1 just calmly carried on playing. However, if I thought that he would be a danger to other people (including teachers) I would look for somewhere that had experience of this. The problem is that due to new policies, many parents are forced to send their child to a mainstream school and are refused a place at a specialist school.

[cazzybabs]

What I think would be diffcult, especailly for an "experienced" teacher, would be to say I don't know what I am doing.". But I do agree. And to be honset that if the same for any child, SEN or not, parents know their child best and know how to manage their behaviour, how to read them and what inspires them. I just hope that when the day comes and I have to teach an austic child that you lot will all be here to help!!!

[Jimjams]

There was a bit of a survey on one of my autism lists. There were a LOT of children on that list who had been excluded from various pre-school activites. Tumbletots being a favourite. My son was excluded from micro-sports. The session we went to there has to be the most miserable hour of my life so far. This was despite me having quite an indepth talk to the manager before hand (my son had a dx of mild language delay at the time). She assured me there would be no problem if he did x y and z as long as he didn't hit another child (which he didn't and I knew he wouldn't). However within 5 minutes of arriving it was clear that it wasn't going to work- if she had been upfront a lot of upset (mine) could have been avoided and I wouldn't have had to spend several hours of that morning sobbing. If I'm upfront with people I expect them to return the favour really. And I don't expect snide comments (which I got form the evil cow who ran the club).

[Jimjams]

That's when disaster strikes though when a teacher doesn't say they don't know what they are doing. Everyone in my son's school is very clear to say when they are stuck. They also listen to my concerns and we have been known to compromise (they wanted to up his hours- I wasn't keen so we agreed to have a trial week and review at the end- all went fine).

[cazzybabs]

(you can tell have heaps of work to do can't you!!!)

would you rather people were upfront and said I don't think I could cope with X?

I alwyas thought in things like Tunbletots the parent stayed?

At the end of the day its the child that suffers.

Must get back to my eassy!

[Jimjams]

Yeah they do stay- I stayed in micro-sports- we were still excluded!

School have said right from the beginning that they wouldn't be able to cope unless x y and z were in place. That's fine by me. They rang me at 8.15 last MOnday morning and said that his LSA was off sick and they couldn't cope with him without her there. Whilst I was pissed off (as I had to go to the post office- and then couldn't) I would far rather they did that than he went in and ran off.

That's the weird thing about the article- it sounds as if the nursery hadn;t used the extra funding they'd been awarded by the LEA- at least not to support the child in question. (but SN money being used to refurbish computer suites is a another thread )

[coppertop]

Yes, I wonder what happened to the one-to-one the nursery had been given funding for? I also wonder why they didn't bother to reply to any of the mother's solicitor's letters? It all sounds a bit strange.

[mummytojames]

imo it would make everyones life a bit easier people with or without sn to sit down and talk while there child was in there school that way then before the child starts the teacher knows what to expect and so does the parent and if anything cropped up a one to one talk would actualy help the parent teacher and child to find the best way to sort it out and try and prevent it from happening again
but not sticking up for the teachers but the goverment has to take part responceability because the classes are getting larger the children aint getting the one to one they need at certain times and the teachers are getting stressed out which must rub of on the children without realizeing it and its makeing the teachers job harder maybe if the goverment started paying more attensions to the schools and not war maybe the teachers can get a bit of training on how to cope with sn children and with the parents help by talking aswell it would make life for the children happier all round well tmo anyway

[hercules]

I'm a secondary teacher and have had lots of kids in my classes with various sen problems and yet have had no training apart from a couple of hours lectures. There have been many staff meetings where many teachers have complained about our lack of qualifications and skills at dealing with such things and yet we are expected to deal with them. It is madness and certainly not fair on the kids as they are the ones who suffer!