Jeremy Bamber - Is this the worst MoJ in British criminal history?

(258 Posts)
HoGo1 Wed 22-Jan-14 15:41:27

I watched a prog on C5 a few weeks ago re the above. I've also spent a fair bit of time researching the case (there's a mountain of docs on the 'Jeremy Bamber Forum') I have a feeling we will be hearing much more about this in the not too distant future wink Does anyone else think he might be innocent?

nennypops Thu 20-Feb-14 16:43:55

HoGo, that last post is full of speculation which doesn't take this discussion any further and doesn't support your case in any way.

HoGo1 Thu 20-Feb-14 14:48:42

Even excluding sentences in pre-abolition of capital punishment days, I would still put the Kiszko and Clarke cases higher in any league table of worst miscarriages of justice.

Based on what? Surely the severity of a MoJ is best measured by the defendant's loss of liberty in terms of days? I appreciate that Sally Clarke and Stefan Kiszko suffered mentally and physically and also appear to have met early demises as a result of their MoJ's.

If you haven't investigated where there is any correlation between majority verdicts and miscarriages of justice, don't suggest that there is one

I did not suggest there was one. I said I wondered if one existed. As with most things judicial there appears to be a distinct lack of transparency and accountability. Sally Clark 10 - 2, Stefan Kiszko 10 - 2, Stephen Downing unanimous. I will need to look at many more to establish whether or not a correlation exists.

Agreed, the initial investigation was incompetent because of the immediate assumption that Sheila Caffell was guilty. But that incompetence worked as much in Bamber's favour as against him, because it is highly likely to have led to the destruction of more incriminating evidence against him.

Then that is a failing on the part of the police and other professionals involved eg pathologist, ballistics. Justice should not be served based on the ability of those investigating to act competently.

That would be the first failed appeal. Your comments about closed shops and old boys networks might stand up were it not for the fact that that "closed shop" regularly does allow appeals, including ones based on bias by the original judge

I think some might wonder, I certainly do, whether judges judging the decisions of other judges are able to act impartially from a number of perspectives. wink.

They saw much more than you have. They also had the inestimable advantage of seeing and hearing the witnesses and argument. They clearly found Julie Mugford, for instance, more credible than Jeremy Bamber.

As no transcript of the trial exists it is difficult to determine exactly what the jury heard/saw. I understand much was held back from the defence to bolster the prosecution's case? Why is so much held under pii? And why when the police were told not to do so did they destroy exhibits? According to Geoffrey Rivlin QC he had great difficulty cross examining Julie Mugford as she continually broke down in tears.

JakeBullet Thu 20-Feb-14 11:06:47

Just re-read the appeal for this woman. the appeal judges did not prder a re-trial but with many misgivings. They stressed that this woman's case was different from those of Sally Clarke and Angela Cannings. That there was compelling evidence against her but that when it came down to experts fighting over statistical evidence it weakened the Crown s case. Therefore yhey said "with regret" they did not order a retrial and apparently this has not been asked for.

I still believe she got away with murder. ...unless you count the few years she served.

JakeBullet Thu 20-Feb-14 10:52:47

I think miscarriages of justice are difficult. I was involved with a fairly high profile case several years ago where a woman was found guilty of killing two of her babies. She was sentenced to life imprisonment and then released due to the faulty expert evidence of Roy Meadows.

I think most of the women released on this basis WERE indeed innocent...Sally Clarke for instance.....I remain however, convinced of this particular woman's guilt.....from my involvement in the care of both children. As were many others involved in their care......the fallout from her release amongst those of us who had cared for these babies was enormous.

Life moves on though....am not sure where she is now but I hope to God she has not had any further children.

Interestingly the appeal court judges made the comment that there was compelling evidence in her case that the decision to convict had been the correct one, I am at loss to understand why there was not a retrial....in her case....not in anyone elses.

So I don't believe all miscarriages of justice .....are such.

Then you have the case of Stefan Kizko......where DNA evidence finally exoneratee him.

nennypops Wed 19-Feb-14 22:15:28

Even excluding sentences in pre-abolition of capital punishment days, I would still put the Kiszko and Clarke cases higher in any league table of worst miscarriages of justice.

If you haven't investigated where there is any correlation between majority verdicts and miscarriages of justice, don't suggest that there is one.

Agreed, the initial investigation was incompetent because of the immediate assumption that Sheila Caffell was guilty. But that incompetence worked as much in Bamber's favour as against him, because it is highly likely to have led to the destruction of more incriminating evidence against him.

The first appeal was based on the judges summing up. Some appeal process where one judge judges another judge. Lol. Sounds a bit of a closed shop to me/old boys network

That would be the first failed appeal. Your comments about closed shops and old boys networks might stand up were it not for the fact that that "closed shop" regularly does allow appeals, including ones based on bias by the original judge.

Did the jurors see ALL the evidence?

They saw much more than you have. They also had the inestimable advantage of seeing and hearing the witnesses and argument. They clearly found Julie Mugford, for instance, more credible than Jeremy Bamber.

There put that in your pipe and smoke it Nennypops

The 50s called. They want their cliché back.

JakeBullet Wed 19-Feb-14 22:03:01

Ah....I have recently found the UK Justice Forum too. Joined the JB Forum some time ago but never got round to posting there. ....just reading.

Fascinating to read the different opinions.

HoGo1 Wed 19-Feb-14 21:41:27

I base it on things like, for instance, people who were hanged.

Agreed that's why I have been using the word 'modern' ie worst MoJ in modern British criminal history.

Well, yes. It's called the British justice system, and it's the way the courts operate all day every day. Do you assume that everyone in prison must be wrongly convicted because they have been convicted by "only" 12 jurors, or indeed "only" one judge?

No, but I would like to see if a correlation exists between majority verdicts and MoJ's. Also I think Bamber's case is unique in many ways. All concerned eg police, pathologist, ballistics were satisfied that they were dealing with 4 murders/1 suicide for the first month. As such the SoC was not treated as it would have been with an ongoing investigation. Evidence that might well have proved Bamber's innocence was lost or destroyed. Bamber's extended adoptive family were able to exert undue pressure on the police to change the investigation to five murders with Bamber being the perpetrator. The suggested motive for the crime was supposedly Bamber fast forwarding his inheritance - the estate being valued at circa 436k in 1985. After his conviction the extended family then went on to successfully claim the estate. Much information was held from the defence and remains under pii. Why?

It is also clear that the judge showed bias, and in fact misled the jury, in his summing up. The first appeal was based on the judges summing up. Some appeal process where one judge judges another judge. Lol. Sounds a bit of a closed shop to me/old boys network. I do not like the lack of transparency/accountability here at all. I'm sure when Bamber's conviction is quashed it will change the face of British justice forever.

And it's not good enough to dismiss those people as if they were tossing a coin. They are the ones who have seen all the evidence (not just what Bamber's supporters choose to put up on his website) and actually saw and heard the witnesses give evidence, and who have heard the arguments of counsel instructed on his behalf who I am quite sure put his case - including the issues you refer to - as forcefully as possible. No-one is saying that the system is infallible, but they have a better chance of knowing the truth than someone reading documents on a selective website.

Did the jurors see ALL the evidence? I am led to believe much was held back, lost or destroyed.

FYI I posted on 'The Jeremy Bamber Forum' for some 20 months under the username 'Naughty Nun' but on 31st October 2013 I was banned for life for winding up posters/supporters. I currently post on the 'UK Justice Forum' which is very anti Bamber. There put that in your pipe and smoke it Nennypops. grin

nennypops Wed 19-Feb-14 20:11:05

How would you define 'worst' in terms of MoJ? I base it on length of sentence served to date.

I base it on things like, for instance, people who were hanged.

You are happy to let a man's liberty rest on ten jurors and a handful of appeal court judges.

Well, yes. It's called the British justice system, and it's the way the courts operate all day every day. Do you assume that everyone in prison must be wrongly convicted because they have been convicted by "only" 12 jurors, or indeed "only" one judge?

And it's not good enough to dismiss those people as if they were tossing a coin. They are the ones who have seen all the evidence (not just what Bamber's supporters choose to put up on his website) and actually saw and heard the witnesses give evidence, and who have heard the arguments of counsel instructed on his behalf who I am quite sure put his case - including the issues you refer to - as forcefully as possible. No-one is saying that the system is infallible, but they have a better chance of knowing the truth than someone reading documents on a selective website.

lastcowboy Wed 19-Feb-14 19:53:38

Everyone goes on about the fact that Sheila was so clean. Jeremy didn't have a mark on his body (Julie Mugford's words) and the sniffer dog at the SOC took no notice of Jeremy. It's quite ludicrous that he would murder 5 members of his family just for money. To read books is to judge this case on someone else's opinion. He was not a playboy as commonly depicted but someone who grew to love the farm life. There was no fight in the kitchen, the sugar on the floor and broken glass was caused by the TFU as they stormed through the kitchen...this they acknowledge. ACC Peter Simpson issued a statement to the press saying that a sound moderator had been removed from WHF on the day of the tragedy...apart from David and Robert Boutflour's also seized by the police...so you see that there were 4 Sound moderators taken by the police...again backed up by police statements. These facts are not opinions or make believe but undisputable facts. These are only a very small amount of facts documented by the police...too many to mention. The cover up is full of holes and with the new evidence recently uncovered I'm very confident that when the submission is complete then it'll result in Jeremy's release.

HoGo1 Wed 19-Feb-14 18:44:34

HoGo, I think we have already established that, if this were a miscarriage of justice (in my book MoJ is definitely Ministry of Justice and nothing else), it still isn't the worst miscarriage of justice in modern history.

Lets not split hairs over acronyms. MoJ = Ministry of Justice and Miscarriage of Justice. FSA is Financial Services Authority and Food Standards Agency. How would you define 'worst' in terms of MoJ? I base it on length of sentence served to date.

I answered your direct question about whether I could produce proof beyond doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family. That answer being inconvenient to you, you have tried to turn the question into a different one

You did not even attempt to provide any evidence. You are happy to let a man's liberty rest on ten jurors and a handful of appeal court judges. Not good enough when the soc was treated as 4 murders/1 suicide for a month and much 'evidence' destroyed. Where much of the info still remains under pii and many exhibits destroyed by the police when they were told not to do so.

Bamber's supporters have been saying for years that the conviction was about to be quashed. Last time round, his barrister started out by making very confident assertions about his case which he had to abandon before the end of his arguments. Therefore I'm not going to hold my breath about the likelihood of the conviction being quashed any time soon

I would not describe myself as a 'Bamber supporter' in that I am not actively involved. No Nennypops don't you go holding your breath I am told the wheels of justice grind slowly BUT exceedingly fine wink

JakeBullet Wed 19-Feb-14 18:17:12

The call ID's on the forms I have seen are the same informant ID...ie Jeremy Bamber which seems to suggest that JB phoned the police and the local station then phoned it through to a more central station.....with info that there was an incident at "White House Farm, daughter gone beserk."..based upon JB's info to the local station.

JakeBullet Wed 19-Feb-14 18:14:46

Depending on which view you read in other forums....

Neville Bamber made the call as Jeremy said he did....

or

Jeremy made the call to his home phone from White House Farm nd then simply cancelled the call when he got home. After around 2 mins the line would have cleared and he could then have phoned.....his girlfriend/the police...again depending upon whicch view you read.

VivaLeBeaver Wed 19-Feb-14 18:14:42

I don't think that phone records back then were as efficient as in modern day.....so there's no proof afaik about where the phone calls were made from.

Phone calls to the police were recorded but the tapes were destroyed and never heard as evidence in court. Which is odd as you'd think it would be a really crucial bit of evidence. Did Jeremy make both calls to the police, pretending to be his dad in the first one? Or was it really his dad which would support Jeremy's claim of innocence.

JakeBullet Wed 19-Feb-14 18:12:33

Hi Hettie, unfortunately not, the technology presumably was not available at that time for household phones.

Its one of the things Jeremy said during a police interview...that they could check the phone but they told him no they couldn't and his response came across as one of surprise. I lean towards the guilty verdict and his response in that interview suggested to me that he had planned for there to be proof of a call from White House Farm...and was surprised when he was told that they could not confirm/deny a call made at that time.....but of course I could be wrong.

HettiePetal Wed 19-Feb-14 18:06:29

Interesting thread.

This might have been covered and I missed it, but do the phone records support JB's claim that his father called him that night?

nennypops Wed 19-Feb-14 17:40:36

HoGo, I think we have already established that, if this were a miscarriage of justice (in my book MoJ is definitely Ministry of Justice and nothing else), it still isn't the worst miscarriage of justice in modern history.

I answered your direct question about whether I could produce proof beyond doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family. That answer being inconvenient to you, you have tried to turn the question into a different one.

Bamber's supporters have been saying for years that the conviction was about to be quashed. Last time round, his barrister started out by making very confident assertions about his case which he had to abandon before the end of his arguments. Therefore I'm not going to hold my breath about the likelihood of the conviction being quashed any time soon.

HoGo1 Wed 19-Feb-14 17:31:08

Hi HoGo...just put [[ ]] around your links....then they should work

Many thanks. I should have read the instructions below properly. Makes me wonder what else I might be missing/not reading properly wink

JakeBullet Wed 19-Feb-14 17:25:13

sad....awfully sad case.

Presuming nobody else had a motive to want the family dead though.

I am addicted to the for and against forums now......reading, re-reading etc.

JakeBullet Wed 19-Feb-14 17:22:43

Hi HoGo...just put [[ ]] around your links....then they should work.

HoGo1 Wed 19-Feb-14 16:47:31

Grateful if anyone can explain why my links don't work? confused

HoGo1 Wed 19-Feb-14 16:46:00

JakeBullet

Very sad example of a father killing his wife and their two sons. He then spent some 24 hours at the family home, including washing his car, before committing suicide.

Apparently he wasn't having an affair he had become depressed about a miscarriage his wife suffered.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2072921/Pudsey-family-murder-suicide-Was-killer-father-Richard-Smith-having-affair.html

If Sheila was responsible I think she must have showered and changed her clothes. Then committed suicide in the position she was found in.

HoGo1 Wed 19-Feb-14 16:35:36

I don't have to. The prosecution has already provided evidence that satisfied a jury beyond reasonable doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family, and in two subsequent appeal hearing his lawyers, with access to all the documents you have seen, failed to demonstrate that there was anything unsafe about his conviction

The above does not mean that Jeremy Bamber's conviction is not the worst MoJ in modern British criminal history?

Two jurors were not convinced. The CCRC obviously had their doubts hence the referral to the CoA. Only 2.97% of applications submitted to CCRC have been referred to CoA. All of this will just make the case even more sensational when the conviction is quashed in the not too distant future.

Any ideas about why so much information is held under pii? Or why Essex Police destroyed many exhibits when they were told not to do so?

AchyFox Wed 19-Feb-14 16:33:00

He doesn't deny the phone call, just the content.

There were flatmate witnesses her end of the call.

She is a criminal too and shouldn't have been cut the deal the police did.

HoGo1 Wed 19-Feb-14 16:21:51

Which account? The one she gave to the police the day after the murders where she makes no reference to Bamber's involvement. Or the one she gives a month later when he dumps her and she makes all sorts of claims about Bamber planning the murders for over a year. In the intervening period between the two statements she identifies the five victims at the morgue, including the two little boys she read a bedtime story to and put to bed the Saturday prior to the tragedy, and shares Bamber's life and bed.

nennypops Wed 19-Feb-14 16:13:31

Are you able to provide any evidence that proves beyond doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family?

I don't have to. The prosecution has already provided evidence that satisfied a jury beyond reasonable doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family, and in two subsequent appeal hearing his lawyers, with access to all the documents you have seen, failed to demonstrate that there was anything unsafe about his conviction.

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