Any reaction to the death of Ariel Sharon?

(15 Posts)
Chippingnortonset123 Sat 11-Jan-14 22:35:01

I know that he has been incapacitated for a long time but the Palestinians will never forget Sabra and Shatilla.

ohmymimi Sun 12-Jan-14 00:42:22

At times like these I wish that I was not an atheist, then I could comfort myself that he is suffering the eternal fires of Hell.

Backinthering Sun 12-Jan-14 08:41:00

My thoughts exactly.

telsa Sun 12-Jan-14 19:06:26

Agreed

specialsubject Mon 13-Jan-14 10:26:35

it is difficult to get an unbiased view of all this.

The Sabra/Shatila massacre was carried out by a group known as the Christian Phalangists. It seems Israeli forces under Sharon's command did not do enough to stop it, although there is another source that says the Phalangists were ordered by the Israelis to behave as a 'dignified army'

the actual leader of the massacre was blown up by a car bomb in 2002.

as usual, no-one wins here and all the ancient hatreds continue. Israel has requested no rocket attacks while Sharon's funeral is in progress.

it never ends. At least if you are an atheist you will never kill for religion.

donnie Mon 13-Jan-14 11:33:54

He was a terrorist. Why mourn him?

justasecond Mon 13-Jan-14 14:59:12

An evil man. Glad he is dead. Hope he rots in hell.

ButThereAgain Mon 13-Jan-14 15:12:46

It is very uncomfortable to hear the tributes being paid to him by British politicians. He was severely implicated in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and many other oppressive events.

I would have hoped that our leaders would at least have had the decency to say nothing at his death and funeral, if they didn't find it politically convenient to say something honest.

Chippingnortonset123 Mon 13-Jan-14 16:22:38

The situation in the camps is appalling. They don't have enough to eat, have little work and are imprisoned behind the separation wall. They have more chance of visiting London than visiting Jerusalem. They are subject to fixed and flying checkpoints and live a life of daily deprivation and fear. They want a two state solution.
The third Intifada is inevitable under these conditions.
This is NOT an ancient problem. It dates from 1948 and 1967.

Chippingnortonset123 Mon 13-Jan-14 16:25:48

Most of the Palestinians I know are Christian or moderate Moslems. Living in refugee camps and under repressive occupation, surrounded by huge illegal settlements is the most likely thing to radicalise them.

specialsubject Tue 14-Jan-14 14:36:20

actually Jew-hating is an ancient problem, and the desire for everyone to live in one dusty corner of the world and hate everyone else who does is due to the ancient superstitions. That's what started all this.

the Palestinians can't just up and move because there are things called visas, they can't live where they want. The way they are treated is indeed bad, but as their 'forces' keep shooting at the Israelis there is little incentive to sort it out. The state of Israel was founded to give Jews somewhere to live where they would be safe from a change of government leading to an extermination policy.

as always, the civilians suffer. The answer is for everyone to just get on, agree to forgive past crimes and not worry about each others' beliefs, but sadly it seems human nature isn't like that. Heck, even the two halves of Christianity hate each other in some parts of the world a LOT nearer than Israel.

here's to a solution one day.

ButThereAgain Tue 14-Jan-14 15:12:30

I don't think we need to view the alleged war crimes and oppressive policies of Sharon just in the context of some kind of tragic balance of ancient hatreds, though. Any more than we have to regard the alleged criminality of the US drone programe or detention at Guantanamo in such a light. These are real, contemporary injustices that can be addressed in modern political terms, To assimilate them to an epochs-long story of hate is to be too fatalistic I think. As if international justice were less applicable to Palestinians than to other parts of the world

Chippingnortonset123 Tue 14-Jan-14 16:47:25

Jew hating has been, traditionally, a European problem, not a Middle Eastern problem.
The Palestinians want a two State solution but are currently living in deprivation and terror.

Mimishimi Thu 16-Jan-14 00:45:36

I think Sharon had a change of heart toward the end though. He started dismantling a lot of the illegal settlements. Hardliners probably saw his stroke as divine vengeance for that. I do think he was a war criminal unfortunately and not just because of what happened in Lebanon but more recent events which have had a devastating effect on the Middle East (and Western countries too). Those actions have exacerbated those ancient hatreds and I believe that was his intention too sad

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Fri 17-Jan-14 16:27:11

This conflict didn't start with superstition and to continue to hide behind the religious conflict ignores the system on which it continues to be based.

It started with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, which many say was pushed by several Western governments, whose land was cut up by the French and the British for their own purposes, including the Mandate for Palestine. During the fall, Ottoman sided with the British against the Germans during WW1. There were deals made during that time - for the population at that time. Afterwards Balfour promises it as the land of the Jewish people. Until the end, it was being promised to group after group, much in return for aid or support in war efforts. In the end the UN (and America) back a modified Balfour's proposal and the British withdrew after very limited support in actually moving or helping people.

Afterwards, America backs the Jewish state of Israel for...disturbing reasons (the religious Christians of America, who have a lot of political power, believe that once most Jews live within Israel, then their Messiah will return). It backs it financially, politically, and with arms.

It's a conflict based on broken promises and Western ambitions, they don't care about the separate buses or the current proposals of Christian Arabs going to be given more rights than Muslim ones (that likely pleases them) or the forced birth control on African refugees or outright racist remarks from their government, or the number of Palestinian children in jail or babies who die at border crossing from women trying to get to hospitals. Even Mizrahi Jews and African Jews are being oppressed in poverty. It's systematic and it's purposeful, the superstitions are just a veneer over much bigger roots.

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