What's a supervision order? And is anyone else surprised by this sentencing?

[roisin]

I'm shocked by this.

[donnie]

agreed roisin, it is awful. The victim Shanni sounds like the worst type of bully and the attacker sounds screwed up too. Apparently she is from Somalia and had been subjected to susutained racist bullying by Shanni and many others.
I wonder who the real victim is?
How awful that these things happen in our schools.

[roisin]

It certainly sounds horrific, and is clearly a complicated story. But surely a stronger message (sentence) should have been given for use of a blade in school ...?

[SenoraPostrophe]

sentences aren't about sending a message though. it sounds like she was desperate and she was only 12 - don't see what a young offenders' institution would acheive in the circs. (there's a cultural argument too, but I leave that for now)

[edam]

Well, the judge did say that he couldn't send her to prison because she had been convicted of the lesser charge, which obviously doesn't carry a prison sentence. Have a bit of sympathy for the offender as the victim of bullying, but not impressed by the 'cultural' excuse.

[crunchie]

Reading the story I am not suprised. When we first heard the story This girl was slashed in an unprovoked attack. I am glad some of the truth came out TBH The victim finally fought back.

[Callisto]

We excuse women for killing abusive husbands after years of mental and physical bullying. I feel so sorry for the girl who did this as it was a last resort and she probably just snapped.

[roisin]

But she didn't just snapped. She thought about it and deliberately brought a razor blade into school. If that's not pre-meditated, what is?

[Blu]

I think the cultural argument is a non-starter, but as for the apparant pre-meditation, that's how women get done for murder where men get done for manslaughter. If she was physically weaker and outnumbered by her attackers, she had no choice for defending herself but through pre-meditation. And that doesn't mean she was calm - she was probably beside herself, but on a desparate slow-burn rather than cold-hearted planning.

Being publicly attacked by 100 girls isn't 'bullying', it's serious asault. You can' condone the use of a balde under any circumstrances, but obviously what the judge heard in evidence (and what we haven't been given the details of) had a big impact.

[shimmy21]

They also said on radio 4 that facial 'scratching' is a traditional Somali women's way of sorting a dispute. I'm not for a minute suggesting that that makes it OK and what she did was certainly a hellova lot more than 'scratching'. But it does help to put in to context why at the end of her tether after several years of vicious bullying and a particularly nasty incident the day before (witnessed by more than 100 kids) the girl did what she did.

[soapbox]

No - not at all shocked, just thankful for a sensible jury who was able to see that there was more than one victim in this scenario.

The assualt my Shanni on the attacker sounded incredibly vicious and there had from the evidence in court been a sustained degree of violent bullying by Shanni.

I think that there is a temptation to automatically think of an attack with a blade as being a worse crime that one without one, but in fact both assaults sounded incredibly vicious in their own ways, except that one left scars that are visable and one left scars that are not visable.

Sensible decision as far as I am concerned!

[shimmy21]

here here, soapbox

[roisin]

Well, I'm still surprised.
I work in a secondary school, and - like most staff - can quickly separate kids who are starting to fight just by shouting. But the thought that one of those kids might have a blade (not really part of the culture here, thank goodness) is just terrifying: because a blade can do so much damage so quickly.

So yes, Soapbox, to me an attack with a blade is automatically far more serious.

[hulababy]

Have read lots of this as all over local press. The "victim" of the blade attack sounds like she was a really nasty bully towards the offender. Just the day before she was seen by teachers and pupoils to hit the offender several times so hard her head banged against a wall.

When this story first broke the victim was made out to be an innocent little girl, and it being a totally unprovoked attack. That no longer seems the case at all.

Although the girl did intend to take the blade - which was actually part of her school pencil sharpner, not a knife - and to approach this girl, the information ggiven suggests that she did not intend to hurt the victim so badly. The info given suggests she meant to warn and scratch the girl.

This offending girl is a Somalian who was orphaned when she was very young. It would appear she has suffered several sustained attacks of verbal and phsyical bullying at the hands of the "victim" and others at school and outside of school. I think she just cracked under the pressure and felt she had to just do something to make the bullying stop.

Not sure what other sentence could be givem. I don't think a custodial sentence would help the girl, and what message would that give to the bullying victim too? IMO both girls should be punished equally - if what is being published if correct anyway.

[edam]

Agree with Blu, the incident where the girl who ended up on trial was attacked by 100 (seriously?!) kids was itself a criminal assault. If that had been reported to the police and taken seriously, perhaps the knife attack would never have happened.

[hulababy]

This school is in a particularly bad area of the city and the area has many many problems. This is not a typcial secondary school for the area at all.

[hulababy]

Just to clarify - it wasn't a blade as such - not in the obvious knife tyoe of way. She didn't go to school carrying a knife. It was the blade from a pencil sharpener.

[soapbox]

The teachers evidence for the defence spoke volumes to me though Roisin.

It was clear that the teacher had had no hope of getting Shanni off the girl when she was attacking her - her description in court of that attack was pretty shocking TBH.

I place a fair degree of trust in the views of the teachers in this scenario. It really wasn;t a straightforward case unfortunately

I think what we are seeing is a case where the school failed to take the bullying of this child seriously and failed to ensure her safety. In extremis she took matters into her own hands - but she had been badly let down, I believe!

[hulababy]

At the school I worked at there is no way a lone teacher could break up every type of fight that occured there. Some were vicious, and yes - sometimes some form of weapon was used. We were generally advised not to attempt to break up a fight on our own, but to call for help.

[edam]

So why didn't the teacher call the police, when she saw Shanni assaulting the other child? I have heard teachers say that schools tend to keep stuff in the school. But it was clearly a criminal assault (they were both over 10). And if it had been reported, maybe the wounding would never have happened.

[hulababy]

edam - I think you have it in one there. Schools do tend to kee everything in school as school business and seem very reluctant to go to external agencies, like the police. They would then have to admit they had a problem they could't/weren't dealing with i guess. When I was assaulted, as a teacher by a pupil, it was very much treated lightly by the school and it was expected it would go no further. Unless the girl's guardians had wanted it to go further - if they knew the full extent that is - then maybe it would have. Left to the school alone it is unlikely IME.

[Blu]

In the report in the Guardian today it says that the defendant girl - the somali girl - has learning difficulties. They think she has an IQ of 45. She has few friends. She came to the country alone and as an orphan. Poor poor kid. And now she has Shanni's family baying for a review and a custodial sentence. She must have felt so alone, afraid and desparate.

ffs, 100 kids looked on while Shanni hit her repeatedly so hard her head crashed into a wall, and not one person came to her aid.

[LadyScumofScumford]

What a very sad story. I think the judge's decision was a good one.

[JanH]

I read the Guardian report of this (v brief) and was surprised at the degree to which the "victim" seemd to have provoked her attack, but then went searching the other papers and all I found was this in the Mirror - granted it could just be her trying to defend herself, but if she is a proven bully wouldn't she just keep quiet? There must be loads of kids/parents at the school willing to give the other side if there is one? (If they already have I can't find anything so could someone please post a link?)

[hulababy]

Janh - I doubt it TBH. In that area violence and crime is pretty much the norm. Bullying wouldn't be seen out of place, especially of someone who was so easy to victimise as a young orphaned,, isolated girl unable to speak clear English.

[Caligula]

What stands out for me, is that if this girl was so isolated and unable to cope with the demands of school (low IQ) what was she doing being thrown to the wolves in a mainstream school with no support in the first place? The fact that this is a standard way to settle disputes in Somalia is neither here nor there; it's not here and someone should have explained that to her and supported her through the bullying - or there should not have been such bad bullying to begin with because the school should have been dealing with it. Or she should not have been in an environment where she was vulnerable to it. What's coming across is that a culture of violence is being allowed to flourish in this school and that children with special problems like her, are just not receiving the support from the LEA they so obviously need. I'm glad I don't live in the catchment area.