Latest attack in Syria

(428 Posts)
Jammybean Wed 21-Aug-13 22:11:31

Just watching BBC news, they were frantically trying to save a toddler who was convulsing . I feel physically sick.

holidaybug Fri 06-Sep-13 18:20:28

I'm not too proud to admit that having looked at the picture on the Daily Mail (as much as I don't like that newspaper), it did make me re-assess my views on Syria and intervention. Whilst I think I still stand by my views and support intervention, it just highlights the lows that people stoop to in times of war and that there is evil on both sides.

Kungfutea Fri 06-Sep-13 11:59:22

On phone so can't link but article said that captured soldiers cellphones had videos of the soldiers raping and looting. Who knows the truth?

But i don't think they're 'as bad as each other' by any means. That's just a simplistic and childish way of looking at a very complex situation.

bemybebe Fri 06-Sep-13 04:45:50

but canoot see anything about 'filming themselves' maybe too early

bemybebe Fri 06-Sep-13 04:44:40
Kungfutea Fri 06-Sep-13 01:41:26

Wannabe

The NYTimes said the soldiers had filmed themselves looting and raping so the rebels had sentenced them to death.

Never trust the daily fail. Sloppy journalism as always.

WetAugust Fri 06-Sep-13 00:40:17

Yes Wannabe. it's barbaric.

I hope it makes those who want to support <either side> reconsider.

There are no good guys in this.

Wannabestepfordwife Thu 05-Sep-13 22:53:26

Has anyone seen the latest on the mail- really wish I could link.

A rebel defecter has given footage to the New York Times showing the rebels executing 7 soldiers who are stripped, bound and appeared to have been tortured as the soldiers had filmed the rebels raping civilians.

I really don't believe the innocent Syrian civilians would be safer under the rebels than under Assad.

bemybebe Thu 05-Sep-13 14:42:42

What exactly from this film we were not told? I actually knew most of this from the 'lying' Western media. That is why this decision is so difficult and why I personally against the proposed strike action.

ElenorRigby Thu 05-Sep-13 13:55:32

The Syrian War What You're Not Being Told

An informative short film that concisely pulls together many of the points I and others have made and one that thus far I dont has been mentioned but that's certainly been on my mind.

noddyholder Thu 05-Sep-13 13:17:38

US not involved? Really?

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 13:11:37

Agreed Merry. But there's no civil war. They have transferred hostilities to what they perceive to be 'the occupying force' - the foreign military stationed there.

As they did in Iraq

As they would wherever we try to put boots on the ground to assist them

EldritchCleavage Thu 05-Sep-13 13:07:27

Russia has a naval base in Syria and would be expected to rotate ships in and out of their, so having ships there is not necessarily an escalation on their part.

merrymouse Thu 05-Sep-13 13:04:09

Not sure that there is really what you could call peace in Afghanistan though.

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 12:54:39

Kosovo was a civil war in FYR ended by NATO intervention when it bombed Serbia.

Afghanistan was also a civil war between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance, ended by NATO heavily supporting the Northern Alliance with air support.

merrymouse Thu 05-Sep-13 12:45:27

I think a clear difference with Yugoslavia is that it followed the break up of the soviet union rather than millennia of conflict in the region, and that the countries involved did not have a long history of negative feeling towards the west. There was a political point to coming to the negotiation table with the Europeans. The leader who could make a deal with the west had power. This is not true of Syria.

ElenorRigby Thu 05-Sep-13 12:42:11
niceguy2 Thu 05-Sep-13 12:41:14

Sierra Leone/Yugoslavia both had boots on the ground.

The latter was pretty piss poor at first due to the fact it was a UN peacekeeping force that couldn't do anything other than watch helplessly. Only after NATO arrived did things.

The takeaway lesson there seems to be if you want them to stop, you have to have someone in between them willing to shoot back.

Right now everyone has ruled out boots on the ground so we arrive back at the original question. What's the point?

bemybebe Thu 05-Sep-13 12:19:43

Yugoslavia? I tend to say yes, successful.

bemybebe Thu 05-Sep-13 12:18:32

"Its not conspiracy theory to say that individuals almost always act in their own self-interest."

Actually I do not agree with this to start with. I am surrounded by wonderful generous people who I can clearly see, balance their own self-interest against that of their family, friends, community and the world as a whole. We do not always agree on everything, but they are good people basing their decisions on their own ideas of morality.

I am a free market monkey yet i see plenty of examples where market forces do not work as well (at least in the short term).

I think your view on humankind is a bit grim.

EldritchCleavage Thu 05-Sep-13 12:15:46

merrymouse, I suspect that has generally happened only where a larger power used the opportunity to invade, e.g. Roman empire invades kingdom where a civil war is being fought over who gets the throne and crushes everyone into submission.

Even in the modern era I am struggling to think of more than one example of anyone intervening successfully, certainly on a short or medium term basis: Nigeria (Biafra), Angola, Cote d'Ivoire, Mozambique, Somalia, Western Sahara, Congo, Chad, Rwanda, all no, and that's just in Africa. The UN is actually doing well in Congo and Somalia apparently, but it is a bitterly long haul and there will have to be a long political process even if there is military victory. France has intervened in Mali, successfully for now, but hopes are not high for the future. The French will leave, and there is every prospect fighting will start again when they do.

One can be more optimistic about Libya though, but there the societal split was less entrenched. Ethiopia/Eritrea played itself out, as did Sudan/South Sudan, until the two sides negotiated.

Lebanon no, Irag and Afghanistan no, Yemen no.

Yugoslavia yes, I suppose, the peacekeeping plus bombing concentrated minds and lo and behold the warring sides were ready to talk at Dayton.

Kungfutea Thu 05-Sep-13 12:10:07

British intervention in sierra Leone went well iirc

bemybebe Thu 05-Sep-13 12:07:47

merry not as far as I know.

MiniTheMinx Thu 05-Sep-13 12:00:42

Its not conspiracy theory to say that individuals almost always act in their own self-interest. It is not conspiracy to say that corporations, whose main interest is in lining the pockets of shareholders and extending their dominance over the market also act out of self-interest. If you are a free market monkey you would understand this, I'm not and I do, so where is your excuse ?

Adam Smith proposed that rational self-interest and competition can lead to economic prosperity. In a free market economy everyone acts in self interest. Those that have the greatest wealth have the greatest social/political power in which to extend conditions that perpetuate their own dominance and economic prosperity. Whether that be through ownership of the media, lobbying, getting into unelected positions within politics, setting up trusts and charities, controlling huge share portfolios, having controlling interests within the banking sector or going directly into politics.

These individuals be they people or individual institutions/corporations have not only self interest but class interest. The only conspiracy is on us, when we fail to understand the complex social relations and their effect on our own lives and that of others......like the Syrian people because the intentions of others are hidden to us. The conspiracy is on ordinary people who's lives are not worth peanuts. This ignorance makes monkeys out of all us.

I'm reading this at the moment www.amazon.co.uk/The-Atlantic-Its-Enemies-Personal/dp/184614275X a history of the cold war. This is written by a free market ideologue. I shall have to bleach my brain grin

merrymouse Thu 05-Sep-13 11:55:39

Is there any example in history where a civil war has been ended by another country?

Kungfutea Thu 05-Sep-13 11:44:27

Mini

That's as maybe but the idea that the us is involved or not in Syria because of the Golan heights is laughable and really quite ridiculous.

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