Scotsman Newspaper puts swastika on the saltire.

(63 Posts)

Can't bring myself to link to the paper, there is the image of the Saltire in their paper, but with a swastika instead of a cross.

So irrespective of how you will vote, do you think they are wrong to use nazi imagery to attack pro-independence voters?

British nationalism.Good.?
Scottish nationalism.Racist fascism.?

You can't have it both ways, you can't claim all is fair in the no campaign then grumble about a fairly gentle comic typo.

But I apologise if it offended you Sundae. Not hard to apologise or withdraw a negative image, if the Saltire/swastika image is removed and they apologise then maybe we can move on and have an intelligent debate about Scotland's future dependence or independence.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 07-Apr-13 15:31:59

Most nationalist parties and supporters are seen as fascist.

SundaeGirl Sun 07-Apr-13 15:32:18

Eh? None of this offends me. That's my point. Other people get worked up but I see it as Politics (and Newspaper Selling).

Had someone been specified as a Nazi (or as bitter) then I'd be more inclined to be bothered about that.

Skybore Sun 07-Apr-13 19:08:32

It absolutely is not newspaper selling; it is the polar opposite of newspaper selling, ask any of the latest batch of staff facing redundancy at this failing newspaper.

Its not hard to work out why circulation is dropping at The Scotsman. though that will be no consolation to the people losing their jobs there.
Would you pay to have your intelligence insulted every day?

Their rabid anti SNP stance wipes out the market for SNP voters and supporters, and on the evidence of the 2011 Holyrood election there are a lot of them.

The constant twisting of facts and the daily distortions are possibly upsetting to the genuinely neutral readers who would like facts reported accurately and without bias. I would guess there are a lot of people who fall into that camp.

These two groups could possibly account for about 75% of the target Scottish readership. I would say basing your business plan on 25% of the target audience is not a clever strategy.

Today's swastika stunt honestly makes me feel like crying, yet they actually think it is achieving what exactly?

I have family now facing redundancy from this failing paper (circulation under 30000 now, less than half the 2007 figures), and the owners of Johnson Press and their lack of respect for readers intelligence has a large part to play in this.

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 19:22:34

It used to be a good paper too, about 20 years ago.
It's such a shame what's happened to it.

That is a sweeping statement BoneyBackJefferson.

And on holocaust remembrance day too.sad

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:09:22

It's ridiculous and offensive - and dreary and lacking in imagination, and puerile and insulting and tasteless and gimmicky! Nul points Scotsman.

But nationalism - British, English or Scottish - I just can't see any point in it at all. You don't choose where you're born. Why should you be prouder of one part of the world than another?

When Scotland play rugby or football, I support them - sport is a game, so you support your home team.

But someone explain nationalism to me. What is it that you are proud of? Is it anything you have actually had a hand in shaping or working for? Is it something your parents or grandparents did? Is it the scenery, democracy (one vote every 4 years), all the Scottish inventors and writers and scientists and doctors? Is it a shared culture or set of values - if so, what is it that you have actually done yourself to produce this culture or uphold these values? And how are you so sure they are better than anyone else's culture or values?

<Genuinely baffled>

Now, the French and the Egyptians, on the other hand, they had a revolution. They can be proud of that. But no matter how much you admire Keir Hardy or William Wallace, they are just individuals - they could have been born anywhere, and they would still have been outstanding.

All over the world brave people are fighting their governments. They can be proud of that. In other places people are working together for the common good. They can be proud of that. But we are just standing around whinging as our (UK) govt dumps on us from a huge height. I'm not proud of that. <not that I'm doing anything about it>

I agree LadyBeagle - it was a good paper before Andrew Neil did his worst, followed by Johnson Press.

It is sad that good journalists have lost and will lose their jobs, it is such a shame we don't have a decent national newspaper. I don't see that changing in the future, one way or another it would be good to have an open platform to debate the referendum. To me the media, including bbc Scotland is very much pro-union.

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:14:22

What about the Herald? Some excellent journalism there.

Taking part in the referendum is a way of doing something about the government dumping on us all from a great height. I believe with independence we would have a fairer (proportionally representative government) which we don't have just now. Their is no political will to change the voting system in the u.k - the referendum will decide if the people who live and vote in Scotland want to be in charge of their country - irrespective of nationality!

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 20:16:54

Isn't Nationalism just a sense of nation and a sense of who you are?
And I think most nationalities feel it be it the USA, France, Ireland or Scotland to give examples.
It doesn't have to be a negative thing, it's just a sense of identity.

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:28:39

Yes, TapselteeriO, I agree that taking part in a referendum about Scottish independence doesn't have to be about nationalism. But for many people it is. And it's more than that too - it's a chance to show the Westminster govt how much we hate them. But this coalition won't always be in power, and we'll get our chance to vote them out soon.

How do you define who you are, LadyB? Doesn't it depend to a large extent on who you are not? I think it's more constructive to see ourselves as citizens of the world and to look for what makes us human, not Scottish.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 07-Apr-13 20:28:47

Agree with Solo, the Herald has some damn fine journalism.

And I might be a tiny bit in love with Ian Bell and Iain MacWhirter

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:31:23

Ian Bell and Iain MacWhirter - none finer!

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 20:40:02

I used to love the Scotsman cryptic crossword, specially Peter Bee on a Friday.
It's such a long time since I bought it.

claig Sun 07-Apr-13 21:26:18

Can't find it on their website.
But it sounds like a desperate act that will backfire on the No campaign.
People aren't as stupid as these papers think.

Are there any Scottish papers that support the SNP? Are they nearly all Labour supporting papers?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 07-Apr-13 21:28:47

The Scottish Sun came out in support of the SNP at the last election, other than that I think they are either neutralish or unionist.

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 21:29:18

It wasn't on their website this morning, either, claig.

Does one of the redtops not support the SNP?

(fuzzy baby brain)

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 21:29:42

Ah, cross posts. I knew it was in the depths of my mind!

claig Sun 07-Apr-13 21:34:21

'The Scottish Sun'

Is that a Murdoch paper? I heard recently that Murdoch and Salmond may have slightly fallen out but I didn't pay much attention and may have got that wrong.

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 21:36:04

The Sun is Murdoch owned but won't be supporting independence any more: here

ReturnOfEmeraldGreen Sun 07-Apr-13 21:39:05
claig Sun 07-Apr-13 21:41:17

Thanks, Santana

Solopower I don't agree, I am voting in favour of Scotland, not against Westminster. The U.K government, with its first past the post system will never be truly representative though. Still it isn't a major reason for voting yes.

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