Have we got immigrant paranoia?

(277 Posts)
Jac1978 Mon 25-Mar-13 10:20:02

David Cameron is vowing to end benefits for EU migrants after six months. Around half a million migrants come into the UK every year, one in five from the EU but half return home every year. Only 6% of benefits claimants are foreign born - is Cameron wrongly targetting a minority and just responding to media paranoia about immigrants or is it a real problem and is he right to make things harder for them? Are we blind to the benefits of immigration? Are Brits who emigrate abroad any better?

Callisto Mon 25-Mar-13 18:46:23

You quoted Kevin Peel.

ttosca Mon 25-Mar-13 18:46:54

*Callisto and alemci*-

Look at the list.

Less population dense nations include: Israel, Belgium, The Netherlands, Singapore and Monaco.

It is only slightly more population dense than Germany - which, btw, has the strongest economy in europe, less wealth inequality, better infrastructure, and lower unemployment.

ttosca Mon 25-Mar-13 18:49:03

Callisto-

> You quoted Kevin Peel.

Who cares?! What are you worried about, that he's from the opposing team?

I don't even know who Kevin Peel is, and the figures are from the DWP.

Talkinpeace Mon 25-Mar-13 18:50:39

@Talkinpeace: okay, I am referring to the "public funds", like child benefit, council houses, tax credits, etc. These are not available to me, or to my British citizen husband. Perhaps it was different several years ago? I wasn't issued an NI number on my 16th (was in America at the time, and moving hadn't occurred to me). Won't be handed ILR either - my Scottish husband and I both have to prove we don't claim anything.

I have always been able to access the NHS, but I first came over here as an international student, paying several times what a Scottish or European student paid for her course, and therefore helped support Glasgow Uni. ;) And seven months into that course, I got a job and started to pay tax and NI. At this point, I might well have paid more into the system than a Scottish friend of mine who had three children too quickly after finishing her degree, and opted to stay home with them rather than get her career off the ground.

A lot of the anti-immigration talk does descend into racism. Agreed about that.

Callisto Mon 25-Mar-13 18:52:12

I don't care, look at your own posts.

ttosca Mon 25-Mar-13 18:53:06

> I don't care, look at your own posts.

What does this even mean?

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 25-Mar-13 18:54:24

These threads are so depressing. People seem to be convinced that the problem is immigration and won't be happy until we're kicking everyone not suitably Anglo-Saxon out of the country.

But they're not being racist. hmm

alemci Mon 25-Mar-13 18:56:00

Tosca we are much smaller than Germany and an Island. I am a bit tired of the social and cultural argument. Do we really need any more people in London and the South East? Can't we just stop for 10 years' and let things settle down. What about all the future children who will be born.

You haven't really commented on my remarks about resources. I know some newcomers are a real asset and my grandparents were immigrants

Callisto Mon 25-Mar-13 18:58:40

Jesus Ttosca - you cut and paste a great big article or whatever, quoting Kevin Peel. I've no idea where you got it from and I don't much care. We have opposing viewpoints that won't change no matter how many facts we chuck at each other so I'm out of here.

ttosca Mon 25-Mar-13 19:01:55

alemci-

Population density is a measure of population/area. That means the number of people PER square meters. So population density is comparable between the UK and Germany.

The social and cultural argument is valid. It may make you feel uncomfortable to have so many non UK-nationals here, but that doesn't mean they don't greatly contribute to the nation.

The point about resources is that the UK badly needs investment in infrastructure. Even if immigration stopped completely, UK infrastructure would still be a shambles. The rest of europe is decades ahead in the quality of its rail infrastructure, for example. And we definitely need more affordable houses built.

Anyway, this thread is pissing me off, so I'm going to leave for now before my blood boils over.

Sick of living on Daily Mail island.

pointythings Mon 25-Mar-13 19:15:50

I'm another of those EU immigrants. I've been here almost 16 years, have always paid tax and never claimed anything beyond using the NHS and state education for my children. I've never felt more unwelcome than I do now, but I have put down roots here. I will naturalise if the UK leaves the EU, but until then I just refuse to be gouged by the Home Office for the privilege.

Callisto you are talking bollocks about population density - my native Holland has a population density considerably higher than that of the UK.

Talkinpeace Mon 25-Mar-13 19:21:01

Probablyjustgas
I get child benefit. And my surname on all official documents is not the same as my husband's or my children.
If only the politicians actually had a clue!

alemci
If population density was the be all and end all then nobody would ever want to move to Singapore, Hong Kong or Monaco - but they keep on going.

The really obvious foreigners in central London are the overly ostentatious Arabs and Russians - who have been buying up the capital (and taking homes out of use) for over 40 years.
And nothing this Government proposes will lay a finger on them and their untaxed billions.

AND
I'm still waiting for a guess as to how many of us ILR people are here that Cameroons daft ideas will do nothing about

lemonmuffin Mon 25-Mar-13 19:21:44

Here we go.

Ttosca on the thread - forget any chance of pard

Mumsyblouse Mon 25-Mar-13 19:28:26

The funniest thing on this not very funny thread is when someone said they'll all come here for the free education. Most Eastern European countries have pretty good free education systems, indeed that in some ways is their problem, they have a highly educated workforce but a poor economy in which their skills are highly rewarded elsewhere. Bulgaria's literacy rate is 98.4%, ours is 99%. Not all that different than us, really.

niceguy2 Mon 25-Mar-13 19:32:11

The scary thing about this whole thread is that Ttosca and I for once are in agreement.

I don't think there has ever been anything we have seen eye to eye on. It's actually quite worrisome. I shall have to go and have a lie down. Either that or someone's hacked his/her account......

pointythings Mon 25-Mar-13 19:35:41

Naaah, niceguy. You and I have not always seen eye to eye either, but you are agreeing with ttosca here because you are what your name implies. smile

Right, but you have ILR. Permanent residents are allowed to draw down benefits like child benefit, there's nothing illegal or dodgy about that. Given how long most folks have to live here to get ILR in the first place (maybe you are an exception?) I don't think that's such a bad thing. When I get ILR and, say, claim child benefit for a firstborn child, it will not be as if I rocked up to Scotland yesterday and said, "Cheque, please." I will have been living, working and contributing to public purse and economy for over 7 years.

Talkinpeace Mon 25-Mar-13 19:40:58

probably
But I have never EVER shown anybody in the UK my ILR.
I was given mine three years after I arrived.
I started paying tax 16 years after that.
(arrived as a kid, parents not British)
No employer or any government agency - other than immigration control - has ever asked to see it. Not even the register office when I got married.

And as I, like you, got my Social Security number at birth, have no copies of my birth certificate.

znaika Mon 25-Mar-13 19:51:12

They'll come for the education all right, of course they will. They value it very highly. They want their kids to speak English of course- gives them a massive advantage at home and in the global economy. UK education is great compared to what is in Eastern Europe at the moment, although many systems are going through radical changes. Imagine an education system formed in the communist era when you had to learn official propaganda and doctrine and there was no room for critical thought. Most teachers either were teaching under such a system of themselves studied under such a system, and they do not have the same freedom to question as in the UK. Only 20 years down the line are changes being made to such a system. Results are also openly manipulated. If your child has special needs or even the mildest learning difficulties- forget it there is no provision.

Talkinpeace Mon 25-Mar-13 19:53:58

znaika
TBH as Polish kids round here generally have taxpaying parents who work hard and make them work hard, they are a positive addition to the schools.

znaika Mon 25-Mar-13 19:58:04

I am eastern european. Ihave no problem with them coming- I came!!! I just know in advance from these threads that people will underestimate the pull factors and deny that there are plenty of prople who want to come. many people wnt to go the uk - that is all!

Talkinpeace Mon 25-Mar-13 20:04:46

grin

niceguy2 Mon 25-Mar-13 20:05:59

(Education)...They value it very highly.

Yes indeed. My fiancee shares my same passion for getting a good education. I was sick of fighting with my last ex who seemed to think education wasn't important because she did OK. Well yes....i was the breadwinner!

Again outside of the UK people are generally much more pro-education because they see it as the best route to escape crushing poverty and a path to a successful life.

flatpackhamster Mon 25-Mar-13 20:07:13

ttosca

Population density is a measure of population/area. That means the number of people PER square meters. So population density is comparable between the UK and Germany.

However the comparison between the UK and Germany has little value because migrants don't distribute themselves evenly across the UK. 90% of all migrants who arrived since 2001 stayed in South-East England. 70% stayed in London.

The social and cultural argument is valid. It may make you feel uncomfortable to have so many non UK-nationals here, but that doesn't mean they don't greatly contribute to the nation.

Is that an argument to allow more people in ?

The point about resources is that the UK badly needs investment in infrastructure. Even if immigration stopped completely, UK infrastructure would still be a shambles. The rest of europe is decades ahead in the quality of its rail infrastructure, for example. And we definitely need more affordable houses built.

None of those are arguments in favour of keeping immigration as it stands. It's like the argument which says we shouldn't block Romanian and Bulgarian migrants coming here because they're already here working illegally.

Anyway, this thread is pissing me off, so I'm going to leave for now before my blood boils over.

Sick of living on Daily Mail island.

Well nobody's stopping you leaping on a plane to Cuba and living in a Socialist Paradise. Perhaps you can take some of the other dreadful trots with you.

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