Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

[Kungfutea]

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

So from your link they don't really know.

[Kungfutea]

Not conclusively but it all points to having been a Palestinian rocket. It would have been nice if such circumspection had also been applied in the original reporting.

[CheeseStrawWars]

"He said Palestinian militants were firing rockets at Israel not far from the Misharawi home. Behnke said the area was targeted by Israeli air strikes"

So it could have been either, if it was a Palestinian rocket then it doesn't make Israel "better". No-one is coming out of this well. It's a tragedy. And there's no sign of the conflict ending.

[Kungfutea]

A dead baby is a tragedy whoever fired. Other signs suggest a Palestinian rocket. But it is important to get the facts right. This was reported originally as an Israeli attack.

[zippey]

They are both as bad as one another. The only difference is that Israel has more resources, more weapons, is backed by a larger country etc. Its a bit like David and Goliath.

[Kungfutea]

No they're not as bad as each other. Have you seen what hamas does to their own people?

[hiddenhome]

If you're attacked, then you have the right to defend yourself. Hamas is unpredictable and out of control, what is Israel supposed to do when they're being attacked?

[adeucalione]

I haven't got the appetite for a big debate on Israel/Palestine but I must say that I definitely don't remember anyone saying 'it's inconclusive, we don't know who fired the rocket' when this was originally reported. Back then, the aggressor was a dead cert.

[zippey]

Of course they are as bad as each other, however if I had to side with one group it would be the Palestinians. There have been many more Palestinians die than Israelis. There needs to be a two state solution and Isreal needs to get off Palestine land it currently occupies.

[zippey]

If you're attacked, then you have the right to defend yourself

This is exactly the line the Palestinians take as well. The difference being that Israel has far more resources than Hamas.

[hiddenhome]

Hamas shouldn't attack them then. What has size got to do with it?

[Kungfutea]

And there are no Israeli settlements in Gaza.

Anyway, its one thing attacking Israelis and intentionally targeting civilians. Quite another to be so blase with the lives of the people you are ostensibly protecting.

It's the one sided and biased reporting which gets my goat though. Hamas is an odious and repressive regime which was unfortunately voted in to power in free and fair elections. They don't want a 2 state solution. And Israel doesn't want a hamas led Palestinian state firing missiles from the west bank into the heart of Israel. If France went into Mali to prevent an islamist regime in 'Europe's backyard' why would Israel want one in its living room?

[topsyandturvy]

sorry, Israel isnt saying they didnt, Israel are saying no Palestinian rockets had been fired at the time this one landed, the report you quote say they dont really know, and people on the ground are saying evidence and experience indicates it was an Israeli rocket - op you are clutching at straws

[Kungfutea]

Actually the report says the complete opposite! That all the evidence points to a Palestinian rocket. Sorry if that disappoints you.

[adeucalione]

topsy, did you read the same article as the rest of us?

[donnie]

Bibi doesn't want a two state solution either OP,and has made that very clear on a number of occasions, just in case you were trying to imply that Israel is morally superior here (perish the thought - that wall, those illegal settlements, that blockade, those checkpoints blahblahblah....yawn).

"If you are attacked you have the right to defend yourself"

Precisely. Let's kick the Israelis FORCIBLY out of those illegal, stolen territories then. With UN backing.

[Kungfutea]

The wall has issues ( shouldn't have been built on Palestinian land). But its worked, ie far fewer innocent Israelis have been blown up. If the Palestinians wouldn't have started the second intifada, the wall would never have been built. It is saving Israeli lives.

There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza. Every last one was removed. Look what happened.

Israelis don't want a hamas run state in the west bank firing missiles into tel aviv (and killing their own people at the same time). The Palestinians have shown us in Gaza what would happen if they had a state right now.

[donnie]

Yes those Pesky Palestinians - so annoying, always bleating on about how their homes and farms in the West Bank have been nicked by their Israeli neighbours. Tut-tut.

They should be prostrate in gratitude that Ariel Sharon pulled out of Gaza - (although thankfully the Israelis maintain total control of ALL Gazan borders and ALL Gazan airspace, oh and have a blockade in place against it too)and just be grateful that only a few thousand of them are in prison with no charges filed against them, not all of them!

Simples - yes OP on balance I think we all agre with you that Israel is Good and the Palestinians are Bad.

[Kungfutea]

Gaza has a border with Egypt. They don't need Israel.

Every settlement was removed from Gaza. Israel got rockets in return. Is this what Israel can expect if they withdraw from the west bank?

There was a peace process with a two state solution. Then Arafat started the second intifada.

[patsy83]

I can never forget the sight of Israeli helicopters dropping flaming phosphorous bombs onto unarmed civilians in Gaza. Israel is always playing the victim card even as they shoot children on their way to school. I also remember Menachem Begin, Israeli prime minister speaking to the Knesset saying that Palestinians were beasts that walk on two legs. Have a look on youtube for the "broken bones policy" that was official Israeli government orders to break the arms legs of as many Palestinian youths as possible.
The world is fast waking up to the truth in the middle east. When Palestine was taken from the Palestinians it was agreed by the U.N. that Israel would get one hals and the Palestinians the other half. The day the Israelis moved in they said 'No' , we want it all and started the worlds first terrorist campaign to drive out the Palestinians from their own land. Many British servicemen and Policemen were murdered by these terror gangs such as Irgun and The Stern Gang.
This policy of driving out the 'inconvenient' Palestinians has been going on for 64 years and is a stain on all humanity.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Oh, quel surprise, one mention of Israel and Gaza and it turns into an Israel-bashing thread.

Someone upthread said they're as bad as each other. And this is absolutely true. Two sets of leaders who are too blinded by their own stubbornness and supposed ideologies to every change, and their people pay the price.

It's a tragic situation for both sides, and throwing accusations and blame about who is "worse" is absolutely pointless.

[Kungfutea]

Patsy

Your response highlights the very reason why I felt the need to post this article. It's the blind vitriol directed towards Israel which I find very disturbing. It's understandable to be critical of Israel (I often am and I have many Israeli friends and family who also are) but the misinformation and vilification is over the top.

Menachem Begin never described Palestinians as beasts. He was specifically talking about Palestinian terrorists who targeted children in ISrael (google things like the Avivim school bus attack, Maalot school massacre. Kiryat Shmonah massacre, coastal road bus masscare, Nahariya attack for context of what was going on in the 1970s in Israel). Typical of the disinformation and twisting.

Israel didn't drop 'flaming phosphorus bombs' in the way you describe. White phosphorus has legitimately been used as a smoke screen. Israel has been criticized (rightly so) for using it in dense, built up areas and there was an incident where a shell was mistakenly fired which Israel apologised for (again, I agree they shouldn't have been using it as there are other non lethal alternatives). However, I do hope you're equally outraged by the Palestinians intentionally firing white phosphorus mortars on to the innocent civillians of Israel as was recently done.

I also think your understanding of history in the Middle East is lacking. You do know that the Arabs turned down the UN partition? They wanted it all! They wanted to drive the Jews into the sea. The Jewish yishuv (pre Israel) accepted it even though it wasn't what they'd hoped for. The Irgun and Stern gang were not representative of the feelings of the yishuv, just like the IRA doesn't represent most Catholics in Ireland. In fact, during the 'saison' the Haganah actively worked with the British to stop the actions of the Irgun and the Stern Gang. The Israelis didn't 'move in'. In fact, my Jewish grandparents, who have been more than ten generations in Palestine (documented fact) were forced out of Hebron in 1929 by the Arab massacres. When did they move in? THEY were driven out! Is that not also a stain on all humanity?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

[Kungfutea]

Annie

I don't think each side is as bad as each other. I happen to quite detest Netanyahu but you can't compare him to Khaled Meshal or Mahmoud Abbas (although I have some sympathy for Mahmoud Abbas).

And it's important to remember that it was Arafat who derailed the whole peace process and started the second intifada. Barak was willing to give him everything! Everything!! Even a symbolic right of return. In 1999, Barak - with a platform for peace, beat Bibi hands down. Everything was going in the right direction. I lived in Israel then, it was fab! I remember the optimism, driving to Bethlehem, Ramallah, East Jerusaelm. Businesses were thriving, Palestinians were allowed in to Israel to work, there was no wall then. Who fucked it all up? Arafat did. Bill Clinton made it very clear that the 2000 Camp David Summit failed because of Arafat.

And even afterwards, Ehud Olmert (god knows how) offered nearly as much at Annapolis in 2007 but Abbas didn't have the wherewithal to push it through.

So, no, I don't think they're both as bad as each other. I don't think that gives Israel carte blanche to ignore human rights and I certainly don't think the Israeli civilian settlements help anyone but where do you go from here? Many Israeli friends look at the evacuation of settlements from Gaza (which was painful for Israel, whatever the world may think of the legality of the situation) and say 'What did that do for us?'. It was a chance for the Palestinians to show what they'd do if they had a state, to behave like a responsible state. How can Israel now be expected to hand over the West Bank when the situation in Gaza has shown it what is likely to happen? Ugh, the situation is just dire.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Kungfutea. I lived in Israel then too, from 1998 to 2004. I don't remember it quite the same way. And the Palestinians tell a different story as to how that particular peace negotiation went down. There have been proponents for peace on each side, and warmongers too. Sadly, there have yet to be two peaceful leaders at the same time. Perhaps that is what it will take.

But for all that your average Israeli wants peace and deplores the settlements, the religious nuts keep screwing everyone over by carrying on. And the government is scared of them so they get away with it, inexplicably.

It's the zealot religious nuts on both sides, more concerned with their stupid ideologies than what's right. Those orthodox cowards won't even serve in the IDF; they just expect other people's children to put heir children's lives on the line so that they can "fulfil god's commands and occupy Palestinian lands.

Perhaps the current leader of Israel isn't "as bad" as the current leader of the Palestinians, but overall, I stand by my opinion that both sides shoulder equal blame for the situation.