hunting is illegal so why do it?

(320 Posts)
VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Mon 17-Dec-12 22:26:22

i ride. (well, ive just started but....)
i abhor hunting. hate hate hate the cruelty of it. i think that the RSPCA did the right thing here in this prosecution. why do people of a certain class believe they are above the law?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/david-camerons-local-hunt-fined-26300-for-illegal-fox-hunting-8422915.html

and we spend money (rightly imo) doing this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-20739585

mad world. why do people feel the need to kill animals in the most inhunane ways possible?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:22:52

Agh Itsall FGS its NOTHING to do with the kill!!!!! Why can't you see that from what people have said?? Its the hounds that are the magic bit, working and picking up the scent in unison, a breathtaking sight... and the thrill of the unpredictable chase. 9 out of 10 days hunting I haven't seen the kill, its the staying up with hounds by jumping scary fences.

RubyGates Thu 20-Dec-12 19:22:58

I abhor fox hunting, but I suspect that it is incredibly difficult to prevent people with horses from riding accross land that they have permission to ride across whilst accompanied by their hounds. Not illegal surely?

So it makes an ass of the law. How often is hunting successfully prosecuted?

I'm very interested in the legal implications, because I suspect very strongly that this is an acceptable way to apply the "thin end of the wedge" into our civil liberties. The implication being that people should be prevented from doing something legal because it might lead to them doing something illegal.

The general public can be made to see this as "a good thing" when it's applied to the upper classes, but how long will it be before the same techniques are used more generally?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:24:25

PonyofDoom: "Its the hounds that are the magic bit, working and picking up the scent in unison, a breathtaking sight... and the thrill of the unpredictable chase. 9 out of 10 days hunting I haven't seen the kill, its the staying up with hounds by jumping scary fences."

And why can't you do this with drag hunting?

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 19:24:51

I think you should find other ways to get your thrill. I honestly couldn't do anything that could result in an animal getting tore apart. It's despicable.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:26:18

The thrilling bit is nothing to do with killing the fox, actually - but in this type of debate, it's usual for antis to use emotive, inaccurate and abusive language. I've already explained why hunting for me is thrilling, but feel free to ignore anything which doesn't support your POV hmm

BCBG Thu 20-Dec-12 19:26:35

What on earth do all the fox lovers think happens to all the foxes that go unchecked around here, now that hunting is banned? They don't retire into a graceful old age near the fire. They don't get quietly euthanised when arthritis or disease becomes a problem. They get run over, or starve to death, or crawl under a hedge to die. I live just outside the edge of a large town, between two farms. The High Street and surrounding lanes have foxes at bins most nights throughout the summer. We have many more foxes than ten years ago, and many are thin and mangy. Several neighbours bait with rat poison to deter them. Some ring the council to 'deal with the problem'. Meanwhile, Farmer A on my left goes out 'lamping' at night and shoots to kill. It's efficient, but he shoots every fox he spots. He doesn't always kill, but I don't think he cares too much about the ones that he injures as long as they die later rather than pester his lambs. Farmer B on the other side is a lovely organic farmer and his foxes are undisturbed, so they breed, and frequently breed beyond the food in his area, hence the increase in back garden foxes along the edge of his land. I don't hunt myself, but I'm sick of the sort of hypocrisy that thinks hunting a fox is cruel but slitting a chicken and dumping it upside down into hot water isn't.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:26:39

Dromeday the 'rich' cliche is rubbish. Its just about priorities eg I always worked in a call centre, ran an ancient car & didn't take holidays so I could hunt. Hill/farmers packs arent expensive. Of course hunting is a huge issue if its YOUR way of life. I am not 'used to getting my own way' I just passionately believe that hunting is morally right and important so I will fight for it

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:27:50

Sorry, but it makes me want to bang my head against a wall (and I know it's been corrected): hunting is not illegal. Nor is hunting with hounds.

I grew up in the thick of hunt countryside, in a house with farms on two sides, and I have seen a lot of hunting. I have also killed plenty of animals and I don't have the least objection to it. I can't stand the local hunt because they are unmitigated dickheads who do things like riding through my mum's garden, riding into our primary school playground, riding through fields of pregnant sheep and newborn lambs, etc. etc.

I don't particularly buy the idea that a hunt is a quick or humane way to dispatch a fox. I've seen foxes that got away and I've had to put the bodies in the bin after they die in the ditch. I've also seen foxes shot or poisoned that died in pain. IMO shooting is the best, but obviously not if you're a rubbish shot, which matters.

What bothers me about the hunt isn't therefore so much that I think it is wildly more inhumane than other methods of killing an animal that is preying on livestock. My issue is that killing that animal is made into sport for people. That's disgusting. IME, the people who do it tend to be entitled, cruel, unreflecting tossers - and I do think that's a natural result of making sport of an animal dying in pain.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:28:57

Very well said BCBG. Sadly many antis just hate hunters, they just pretend to themselves its about animal welfare when it isnt.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:28:59

RubyGates - good post and something which was raised at the time the ban was going through

But then this ban was never really solely about animal welfare and more about political point scoring and class

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:29:14

"Trail hunting rose to prominence in England after the Hunting Act 2004 banned the hunting of mammals with dogs in that jurisdiction. Like drag hunting, trail hunting involves the use of an artificially laid scent to provide hounds with a path to follow. Unlike drag hunting, however, the path set for the hounds in trail hunting is designed to simulate the path that would be taken by a fox or hare attempting to evade the hounds. The path will shift and double-back on itself unpredictably, pass over natural and artificial obstacles, and cross a variety of terrain.

Trail hunting emphasises hound work, exercising and developing the ability of a pack of scent hounds to identify and pursue a prey animal, and the ability of the horse and rider to follow the pack."

So just the same as fox hunting, but without any prospect of grisly death. Please, please explain slowly to me why chasing a living animal is so important to you, and how being solely excited by the possible imminent death doesn't make you a psychopath?

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:30:12

LRD as usual you sum it up intelligently without getting furious like I do (if that doesn't look too fawny grin ) hat was what I wanted to say.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:31:32

LRD most packs do not behave in this way though of course accidents happen. My pack has many hundreds of people involved and yes some of them are d*ckheads who let the side down, most are lovely, they are like any cross section of society.

LaCiccolina Thu 20-Dec-12 19:32:48

Class? Dunno class has anything to do with it. I've not hunted fox but have tried other types (non animal related, yup does exist!). It's bloody good fun! I'm not keen on the animal being caught hence my reticence. That doesn't float my boat at all, but the ride is thrilling, it's great action with ur horse, fun with friends, the accoutrements I can understand.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:33:08

and the kill is not the 'sport' part, it's the 'job' part, that is done of necessity.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 19:33:16

Sadly many antis just hate hunters, they just pretend to themselves its about animal welfare when it isnt

Why else would anyone hate hunters if not for animal welfare confused

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:33:29

Thanks ariel. blush

pony - I am sure there are some hunts that don't behave like this, but I've never heard of them. Not the local ones where I live now, not the ones my ex hunted with (in three separate parts of the country), not the ones where I've lived previously.

Where exactly are these considerate hunts who don't act like idiots?

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:33:40

There have been two posters who have said their hunt did behave like this.

I don't think they are all dickheads, but I think a larger than average percentage are.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:36:57

Itsall- as has been explained, there are very few drag hunts in the UK because farmers don't want them and I wouldn't want to risk my horses. Also as a farmer, I am in favour of killing foxes with hounds. I don't enjoy the kill itself, but I support it. Just as people who eat animals for pleasure don't enjoy the fact that the animal died for their pleasure but still do it.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 19:37:48

BCBG - I havent got a romanticized view of what happens to foxes without hunting, but that doesn't mean that I should like it hmm it shouldn't be a 'this or that' attitude. If it starves to death, dies in a ditch or gets run over it's still ran out a natural life process without humans getting involved in the name of sport. I understand that there may be need to cull, I don't like it, but I understand it. But making it into a sport is not right.

And how many farms I've seen with rickety old chicken wire in an attempt to keep their livestock safe.

And I'm not a hypocrite either, because I don't eat meat, dont wear animal skin etc etc yada yada.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:38:07

Try reading the relevant posts ItsAll - for many people following the hunt (now and pre-ban) the kill is nothing to do with why they hunt. The hunt servants used hounds to kill foxes (pre-ban) as this was their raison d'être; having subscribers (who follow on horse or foot) who pay to join the hunt is the way of paying for those hunt servants and maintenance of the hounds. Just because you choose the be a hunt subscriber does not automatically mean you are there for the "thrill of the kill"

I don't have an issue with dogs being used to kill pests. My terrier is a one-dog killing machine - rats, mice, rabbits and she's even had a go at a fox. It's her nature, just as it is the fox's nature to kill every chicken in the hen house or take a newborn lamb as it slithers out of its mother. Dogs kill very quickly - usually a bite to the neck. What happens to the body of the pest afterwards is irrelevant - the fox is dead instantly

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:38:24

On an average day hunting with my pack there are 80-100 mounted followers. There are going to be one or two d*ckheads among that number. The rest of us just keep an eye out! Though we can all make mistakes.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:38:24

I'm sure there really are some hunts that are considerate. It's just my opinion that it isn't surprising many are not, as what they're doing isn't an activity that's very conducive to acting in a decent way.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:39:39

Thats a weird thing to say LRD. Hunting is a popular sport that does a lot of good eg the knackering service for farmers. It does far more good than harm.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:40:21

Like killing cats? <helpful>

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