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Those cartoons...anyone want to read why they were published?

125 replies

hunkermunker · 20/02/2006 14:24

Am wary of posting this, but am posting all the same - I think it's very interesting

OP posts:
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kittyfish · 20/02/2006 15:44

I'm running for cover before it all kicks off again...

(though so many dead over a cartoon - wtf???)

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sharklet · 20/02/2006 15:50

It was very interesting to read why they were published. I've kept out of the rows on here about it all, but its worth reading to read a side to the story.

Thanks hunker

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doormat · 20/02/2006 15:54

interesting
read the other day that the people who did the cartoons have a bounty on their heads
very sad
incitement to murder is wrong
but going to bow out of this subject now as gets too heated

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MoggyMummy · 20/02/2006 16:13

Thank you for posting this article link.

My husband is Danish so I have been watching the press (british and Danish) with great interest. Every Dane knows why the cartoons were published and finally other countries can find out too. I just wonder why the British press hasn't come up with this side of the story - the information is out there.

This whole thing has been a tragic misunderstanding of diametrically opposed cutlures.

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Caligula · 20/02/2006 16:18

Thanks for posting it. It's really interesting.

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Blandmum · 20/02/2006 16:19

A very interesting link

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SenoraPostrophe · 20/02/2006 16:23

moggy - the information has been in the uk press. there was a big article in the guardian at least.

fwiw I don't really think the reason is a good one - we all practice self censorship.

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Blandmum · 20/02/2006 16:26

True, we do, however this time we are being told to practice censorship. Not quite the same thing. The law that prohibits depiction of the Prophet is Sharia, and thus extends to Mualims, not non- muslims.

While I would choose not to publish them myself, I resent being told not to publish IYSWIM.

And that is my last post on this topic

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arf · 20/02/2006 16:28

I liked the quote from Karl Popper - one should not be tolerant with the intolerant.

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SenoraPostrophe · 20/02/2006 16:33

mb - what i mean is, I think that "exposing the growing self censorship in Europe" reason is a bit of a silly one. You would not have chosen to publish those cartoon and I wouldn't have chosen to publish them. it's hardly something that needs to be "exposed".

but yes, I agree - the reaction of some to the cartoons has been, well, weird frankly.

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uwila · 20/02/2006 16:36

Oh Hunker, not sure if I admire your bravery or shun your foolishness. Now, must find that hard hat.... where did I leave it???? I've got an extra one, just in case Aloha comes back....

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Caligula · 20/02/2006 16:41

I'm not sure Senora. There's a big difference between self-censoring out of consideration, good manners, sensitivity, etc. than out of fear.

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monkeytrousers · 20/02/2006 17:01

It's all fine and dandy ideologically, but in real life Islam is going through is difficult period of reassessment and self analysis, just as Christianity did not so long ago. It is a massively sensitive time and no one is going to speed up the process by forcing the issue in the way described - and it is described as exactly that "...I still believe that this is a topic that we Europeans must confront, challenging moderate Muslims to speak out.." To what end exactly?

'Moderate' Muslims are having this debate, why should 'Europeans' (I'm guessing this includes European Muslims too) demand that they remonstrate with each other in public, demonstrating their benigness to..well who? I don't think Muslims are any more or less benign than me or you. So why should I ask them to prove it, if I already believe it?

It's not for us to 'demand' that Muslim's stop being so sensitive. Real change - cultural or paradigm shifts happens over time and not because some newspaper barges into a highly sensitive and ongoing debate like some bitter and drunk ex-boyfriend at your wedding. This is a hard thing to call but people are sensitive and for good reason. I suppose all I mean is that being a bull in a bloody china shop isn't going to help anyone, in fact, as demonstrated, it's only going to make everything worse!

The west and Islam are not diametrically opposed cultures. Fundamentalism and extremism are however diametrically opposed to them both.

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Caligula · 20/02/2006 17:06

But his argument mt, is that far from being bulls in china shops, most of the time people are exercising self-censorship. Hence his slightly melodramatic "exposing" language.

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monkeytrousers · 20/02/2006 17:11

Yes, but that's all you'd expect at such a sensitive time, isn't it? Self censorship, I mean? Certainly if you're hoping for a positive outcome. Why is it self-censorship'? Why not just being prudent?

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Caligula · 20/02/2006 17:14

But it's not a sensitive time for the comedians who are being prudent/ exercising self-censorship mt. (tbh I don't see the difference)

Anyway, we've already had this argument...

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monkeytrousers · 20/02/2006 17:17

Really, I'm all for free speech, but I don't think this is about free speech at all. It's about politics. It's playing to peoples fears and prejudices, on both 'sides' if you like. It's about creating rifts not healing them.

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uwila · 20/02/2006 17:22

Monkeytrousers, isn't that what political cartoonists do? I mean it would be funny if it wasn't making fun of someone. Is religeon off limits full stop for cartoonists?

I try it look at ans say, okay, if it was Christ then what would I say? And I just thinkthat might take a bit of offense, but I don't think that I would experience the same scale of anger that we have witnessed in recent weeks over these cartoons.

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monkeytrousers · 20/02/2006 18:06

Only because we perceive Christianity after of centuries of modernism, Uwila. I did an analysis of the history political cartoons and satire at uni before I left to have my baby.

The central conceit within satire is that it's anti-establishment. Like the existence of the 'free' press it represents a conduit for vocal dissent that further represents the idea of democracy. As such, satire would appear to be a vital element in the political consciousness of a free nation and one essential in the narrative of democratic politics itself. And it may well have resembled this description in the time of Walpole etc, when democratic politics (as we know them now) were beginning to take shape. But I don't think modern satire still deserves its reputation as a politically efficacious critical tool belonging to such an anarchic tradition - it?s usefulness has diminished so much it has become a servant of established structures of orthodoxy - one that you could say reaffirms the ideological state apparatus.

Even the great Steve Bell, who distracts from 'real' political issues to concentrate on personality - or attack ad hominem, constantly. It has no real substance at the heart of it - ultimately it's just another conduit to the 'entertainment' business.

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Flossam · 20/02/2006 18:14

Can someone sum up for me what the link says? My puter won't open page.

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SenoraPostrophe · 20/02/2006 18:19

mt - satire is neither necessarily anti-establishment (though the most powerful satire is) nor has it lost its power. It never did have an enormous amount of power in the sense of actually changing things.

but anyway I think it's most unfair to duck out of a comparison between christianity and islam by talking about modernity. have muslims not experienced the modern world then?

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Blandmum · 20/02/2006 18:20

And the latter is a rather insulting thing to suggest, don't you think....that is someway the Islamic world is 'behind' the west?

(But I said I wouldn't post again)

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Flossam · 20/02/2006 18:25

please?

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arf · 20/02/2006 18:26

Why I Published Those Cartoons

By Flemming Rose
Sunday, February 19, 2006; Page B01

Childish. Irresponsible. Hate speech. A provocation just for the sake of provocation. A PR stunt. Critics of 12 cartoons of the prophet Muhammad I decided to publish in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten have not minced their words. They say that freedom of expression does not imply an endorsement of insulting people's religious feelings, and besides, they add, the media censor themselves every day. So, please do not teach us a lesson about limitless freedom of speech.

I agree that the freedom to publish things doesn't mean you publish everything. Jyllands-Posten would not publish pornographic images or graphic details of dead bodies; swear words rarely make it into our pages. So we are not fundamentalists in our support for freedom of expression.


But the cartoon story is different.

Those examples have to do with exercising restraint because of ethical standards and taste; call it editing. By contrast, I commissioned the cartoons in response to several incidents of self-censorship in Europe caused by widening fears and feelings of intimidation in dealing with issues related to Islam. And I still believe that this is a topic that we Europeans must confront, challenging moderate Muslims to speak out. The idea wasn't to provoke gratuitously -- and we certainly didn't intend to trigger violent demonstrations throughout the Muslim world. Our goal was simply to push back self-imposed limits on expression that seemed to be closing in tighter.

At the end of September, a Danish standup comedian said in an interview with Jyllands-Posten that he had no problem urinating on the Bible in front of a camera, but he dared not do the same thing with the Koran.

This was the culmination of a series of disturbing instances of self-censorship. Last September, a Danish children's writer had trouble finding an illustrator for a book about the life of Muhammad. Three people turned down the job for fear of consequences. The person who finally accepted insisted on anonymity, which in my book is a form of self-censorship. European translators of a critical book about Islam also did not want their names to appear on the book cover beside the name of the author, a Somalia-born Dutch politician who has herself been in hiding.

Around the same time, the Tate gallery in London withdrew an installation by the avant-garde artist John Latham depicting the Koran, Bible and Talmud torn to pieces. The museum explained that it did not want to stir things up after the London bombings. (A few months earlier, to avoid offending Muslims, a museum in Goteborg, Sweden, had removed a painting with a sexual motif and a quotation from the Koran.)

Finally, at the end of September, Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen met with a group of imams, one of whom called on the prime minister to interfere with the press in order to get more positive coverage of Islam.

So, over two weeks we witnessed a half-dozen cases of self-censorship, pitting freedom of speech against the fear of confronting issues about Islam. This was a legitimate news story to cover, and Jyllands-Posten decided to do it by adopting the well-known journalistic principle: Show, don't tell. I wrote to members of the association of Danish cartoonists asking them "to draw Muhammad as you see him." We certainly did not ask them to make fun of the prophet. Twelve out of 25 active members responded.

We have a tradition of satire when dealing with the royal family and other public figures, and that was reflected in the cartoons. The cartoonists treated Islam the same way they treat Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and other religions. And by treating Muslims in Denmark as equals they made a point: We are integrating you into the Danish tradition of satire because you are part of our society, not strangers. The cartoons are including, rather than excluding, Muslims.

The cartoons do not in any way demonize or stereotype Muslims. In fact, they differ from one another both in the way they depict the prophet and in whom they target. One cartoon makes fun of Jyllands-Posten, portraying its cultural editors as a bunch of reactionary provocateurs. Another suggests that the children's writer who could not find an illustrator for his book went public just to get cheap publicity. A third puts the head of the anti-immigration Danish People's Party in a lineup, as if she is a suspected criminal.

One cartoon depicting the prophet with a bomb in his turban has drawn the harshest criticism. Angry voices claim the cartoon is saying that the prophet is a terrorist or that every Muslim is a terrorist. I read it differently: Some individuals have taken the religion of Islam hostage by committing terrorist acts in the name of the prophet. They are the ones who have given the religion a bad name. The cartoon also plays into the fairy tale about Aladdin and the orange that fell into his turban and made his fortune. This suggests that the bomb comes from the outside world and is not an inherent characteristic of the prophet.

On occasion, Jyllands-Posten has refused to print satirical cartoons of Jesus, but not because it applies a double standard. In fact, the same cartoonist who drew the image of Muhammed with a bomb in his turban drew a cartoon with Jesus on the cross having dollar notes in his eyes and another with the star of David attached to a bomb fuse. There were, however, no embassy burnings or death threats when we published those.

Has Jyllands-Posten insulted and disrespected Islam? It certainly didn't intend to. But what does respect mean? When I visit a mosque, I show my respect by taking off my shoes. I follow the customs, just as I do in a church, synagogue or other holy place. But if a believer demands that I, as a nonbeliever, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect, but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy.

This is exactly why Karl Popper, in his seminal work "The Open Society and Its Enemies," insisted that one should not be tolerant with the intolerant. Nowhere do so many religions coexist peacefully as in a democracy where freedom of expression is a fundamental right. In Saudi Arabia, you can get arrested for wearing a cross or having a Bible in your suitcase, while Muslims in secular Denmark can have their own mosques, cemeteries, schools, TV and radio stations.

I acknowledge that some people have been offended by the publication of the cartoons, and Jyllands-Posten has apologized for that. But we cannot apologize for our right to publish material, even offensive material. You cannot edit a newspaper if you are paralyzed by worries about every possible insult.

I am offended by things in the paper every day: transcripts of speeches by Osama bin Laden, photos from Abu Ghraib, people insisting that Israel should be erased from the face of the Earth, people saying the Holocaust never happened. But that does not mean that I would refrain from printing them as long as they fell within the limits of the law and of the newspaper's ethical code. That other editors would make different choices is the essence of pluralism.

As a former correspondent in the Soviet Union, I am sensitive about calls for censorship on the grounds of insult. This is a popular trick of totalitarian movements: Label any critique or call for debate as an insult and punish the offenders. That is what happened to human rights activists and writers such as Andrei Sakharov, Vladimir Bukovsky, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Natan Sharansky, Boris Pasternak. The regime accused them of anti-Soviet propaganda, just as some Muslims are labeling 12 cartoons in a Danish newspaper anti-Islamic.

The lesson from the Cold War is: If you give in to totalitarian impulses once, new demands follow. The West prevailed in the Cold War because we stood by our fundamental values and did not appease totalitarian tyrants.

Since the Sept. 30 publication of the cartoons, we have had a constructive debate in Denmark and Europe about freedom of expression, freedom of religion and respect for immigrants and people's beliefs. Never before have so many Danish Muslims participated in a public dialogue -- in town hall meetings, letters to editors, opinion columns and debates on radio and TV. We have had no anti-Muslim riots, no Muslims fleeing the country and no Muslims committing violence. The radical imams who misinformed their counterparts in the Middle East about the situation for Muslims in Denmark have been marginalized. They no longer speak for the Muslim community in Denmark because moderate Muslims have had the courage to speak out against them.

In January, Jyllands-Posten ran three full pages of interviews and photos of moderate Muslims saying no to being represented by the imams. They insist that their faith is compatible with a modern secular democracy. A network of moderate Muslims committed to the constitution has been established, and the anti-immigration People's Party called on its members to differentiate between radical and moderate Muslims, i.e. between Muslims propagating sharia law and Muslims accepting the rule of secular law. The Muslim face of Denmark has changed, and it is becoming clear that this is not a debate between "them" and "us," but between those committed to democracy in Denmark and those who are not.

This is the sort of debate that Jyllands-Posten had hoped to generate when it chose to test the limits of self-censorship by calling on cartoonists to challenge a Muslim taboo. Did we achieve our purpose? Yes and no. Some of the spirited defenses of our freedom of expression have been inspiring. But tragic demonstrations throughout the Middle East and Asia were not what we anticipated, much less desired. Moreover, the newspaper has received 104 registered threats, 10 people have been arrested, cartoonists have been forced into hiding because of threats against their lives and Jyllands-Posten's headquarters have been evacuated several times due to bomb threats. This is hardly a climate for easing self-censorship.

Still, I think the cartoons now have a place in two separate narratives, one in Europe and one in the Middle East. In the words of the Somali-born Dutch politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the integration of Muslims into European societies has been sped up by 300 years due to the cartoons; perhaps we do not need to fight the battle for the Enlightenment all over again in Europe. The narrative in the Middle East is more complex, but that has very little to do with the cartoons.

[email protected]

Flemming Rose is the culture editor of the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

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There you go, Floss

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monkeytrousers · 20/02/2006 18:34

SP, I agree. But it's always the first defence of bad satirists anyway as is free speech for bad reporting. About the modernity issue, I was paraphrasing Karen Armstrong, the religious scholar, who was on Desert Island discs last week. Christianity has gone through a long period of readjustment to make itself more compatible to free market economics, especially where the 'emancipation' of women is concerned.

This isn't the only economic model of course, but it's the one that dominates the globe at the moment and is a 'western' export. I'm not saying Islam, is 'behind' in anything in the sense that they are somehow deficient. But we all accept the concepts of 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries when it comes to (a western model of) economics.

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