Council tax and pensioners. Please someone explain...

[MrsDoolittle]

The last thing I want to do is insult anyone.
I think I need this one explaining to me though because I am mightily confused.
I watched Trevor MacDonalds programme last night about pensioners and council tax but I'm afraid I have a huge problem.
If pensioners don't pay any council tax, who will?
They say they are 25% of the population, enough to scare the government big time and they want total abolition of the council tax.
What upsets me is who they think the people who are able to pay are?
Taxpayers? We are, but honestly we can't afford to pay theirs aswell.
We have a healthy double income between us, however it's all spoken for with student debt repayment, rent, childcare, cars and all domestic bills. We don't own a house because we can't afford one, we have no assets.
The likeliehood is there will be no state pension for us when we retire.
Really, I'm not complaining but my question is this; if pensioners don't pay tax and they make up 25% of the population , and this is going to increase...Who will?

[tallulah]

I've wondered this myself. I thought any "poor" pensioners would be entitled to Council Tax Benefit anyway?

[HRHQoQ]

true tallulah - but a very large number of pensioners have no idea about what benefits they are entitled too - and no-one is there to tell them.

For exmaple. My parents are currently helping the mother of one of Dad's best friends (who died a few months back). She didn't even know what a standing order was - and has never used an ATM , does't know about direct debits etc etc - and hasn't got the slightest clue about 'modern' 'eletric' money - and no-one to tell her about what she may (or may not be as is probably the case) be entitled too.

DS2's godmother, who's just turned 72 - only used an ATM for the first time 2yrs ago, and has only learned to use a computer in the last year - if you don't get 'out and about' much (as is the norm for most pensioners) there's no way to find out about what help is available.

That's why 1/3 of pensioners in this country live in poverty.

[expatinscotland]

Well, dunno. Good question. Our council tax is slowly strangling us. It's £1000 for Band C, and that will increase 5% next year. Our rubbish, sewage and water are included in our monthly bill up here in Scotland, so it works out to £131/month. When you make £15000/pa, that's a LOT of money, especially considering the rents here as well.

We also cannot afford to buy any property.

Council tax benefit is VERY hard to qualify for.

[hunkerpumpkin]

Info about how much money pensioners can claim as a minimum for anyone who needs that info for an elderly relative

This is about Council Tax benefit for pensioners

Lots of them don't claim everything they're fully entitled to as they are too proud.

[HRHQoQ]

not just being proud hunker - many just don't know!

[edam]

Think the main problem is council tax is regressive ie not based on ability to pay (except very vaguely through banding - but £1,000 for Band C?! Average is supposed to be D, FFS).
And that funding for local councils is screwed anyway - most of their money comes from government grants anway (which wastes huge amounts of bureacracy in applying for separate grants for different purposes).

So we need something like a system that is more directly related to ability to pay but ensuring that any increases are matched by reduction in Income Tax.. I think?

[BadHair]

Agree. Pensioners use the same services and amenities as the rest of us so should pay for them. I appreciate that the state pension is rubbish but it's being paid for by current tax and NI payers' money, not by the money the current pensioners have already paid. So we're already supporting them.

I would support a total waiver of the tax for those pensioners who qualify for CT Benefit, and it would be up to them to apply. They are given the information - there's posters up in post offices and there have been ads on TV and in papers.

There is an increasing group of rich pensioners who have planned for retirement and have very healthy company pensions to support their lifestyles. They should not be exempt from paying for the services provided through Council Tax - what the hell were they planning to use their company pensions on anyway?

[edam]

PS Our house is in Band E for some reason I do not understand - it's a three bedroom terraced house with a small garden, very modest by the standards of this area. No idea why it isn't Band D.

[soapbox]

I think the issue is that some pensioners have pensions that are quite low say £150 per week but because they own their own houses have to pay council tax of quite large amounts out of this. Their pensions rise at around 2% per year because they are inflation linked but their council tax rises at 8% per year! The cut off level for help with council tax for pensioners is at around £100 per week. Anyone with more than this has to pay the full whack!



They are not arguing for others to pay their share, but rather that the councils control their budgets so that rises above inflation are not necessary. So the swanky new lampposts in my road and the flash york stone paving are not bought out of council tax that they can ill afford to pay!

[HRHQoQ]

"They are given the information - there's posters up in post offices and there have been ads on TV and in papers.
"

And if someone collects their pension for them, or have very poor eyesite, so don't read papers, and can't see the ads on the TV (if they have one at all) how are they supposed to see the adverts?

[hunkerpumpkin]

Agree, QOQ. Was saying that in addition to what you'd said - didn't make that clear.

I used to work for a charity that helped pensioners - I know how difficult they find filling in forms, how hard it can be to get them to understand they are entitled to help, so they should claim it, how difficult it is to get them to talk about any kind of savings they have, etc, etc.

Yes, quite often pensioners these days have more money than we do (I know one who uses his winter fuel allowance to heat his swimming pool...), but so many are living hand to mouth - and I think we're a pretty poor society if we just say "Come on, there are posters up telling you what you're entitled to, if you don't claim it, it's your fault, so pay or shut up"

[expatinscotland]

£1000.89/pa. I just looked at our book. This flat is in Band C. NO WAY we could ever afford to purchase it, it's worth £157,000.

The rent is £500/month.

I think it should be on ability to pay whether they are pensioners or not.

Sorry, but, everyone's gotta pay up if they use the services.

I also don't think council workers should have a 60-year-old retirement age whilst everyone else has to go to 65.

It'll be 70 by the time my lot gets up there - I'm 34.

Fair enough, you live longer, you work longer. But it should be ONE age for everyone.

[hunkerpumpkin]

And some figures for those who didn't go to the links I posted:

Pension Credit guarantees everyone aged 60 and over an income of at least:

£109.45 a week if you are single; or
£167.05 a week if you have a partner.

Also, if you or your partner are aged 65 or over you may be rewarded for saving for your retirement, up to:

£16.44 if you are single; or
£21.51 a week if you have a partner.

[expatinscotland]

Oh, and this is not a 'priviledged' area. This is run of the mill Leith. It's just that property values are quite high here in Edinburgh. The average for a two-bed 'home' in this town is £168,000.

[edam]

Traditionally, good pensions in the public sector have been set against lower pay - so you won't get rich working in the public sector but you will have a secure retirement. That was the deal. Demography is changing, looks like that deal is going to have to be renegotiated, but then they will have to look at pay as well (I'm not a public sector worker myself, btw).

[hunkerpumpkin]

There are trade-related charities that will give weekly grants, one-off grants and things like Christmas hampers to their beneficiaries - most industries have them

But again, not everyone knows about them.

[soapbox]

Expat - so on your pensioners income of £400-600 a month - £100 or so would be spent on council tax

[expatinscotland]

If you lived in Band C, yep. And also on the £400-£600 you have to live on if you are working poor after taxes, NI, rent, food, power, transport to work (no free bus for the working poor) and other basics.

[soapbox]

But they have to pay bills out of that too!

[hunkerpumpkin]

Don't pensioners buy food, power and other basics then? Some even pay rent!

[expatinscotland]

Yeah, well. So must we all.

[expatinscotland]

I feel council tax is a regressive tax not just for pensioners, but for everyone. That's my point.

[hunkerpumpkin]

If you looked at the figures I put below, you'll see that for a couple living on pension credits, they have a grand total of £8686 per annum.

[HRHQoQ]

how many of us on here (with low incomes) have our heating on all day now? Or are you like us, and put it on first thing in the morning and again in the evening???

[hunkerpumpkin]

The number of deaths among pensioners rises by between 20,000 and 50,000 in the winter