Child benefit - when it goes, do my pension credits vanish too...

(113 Posts)
bb99 Wed 06-Oct-10 14:30:20

Just curious.

I think that SAHPs who claim CB are entitled to National Insurance credits.

So, when the CB goes in 2013, will I lose any pension rights or credits too? sad

If so, had better revise the divorce to be a better off family plan and start being nicer to DH grin

bnm Thu 07-Oct-10 12:32:48

dh and I have been talking about divorce too!!

smallwhitecat Thu 07-Oct-10 12:39:07

Message withdrawn

Bramshott Thu 07-Oct-10 12:39:09

This hasn't been confirmed yet. It looks like you should continue to claim, in order to get your HRP (Home Responsibilities Protection?), and then it will be taken back from the higher rate tax payer by changing their tax code.

George Osborne has said he "hopes people will do the right thing and not claim" but unless they work out another way of handling HRP then it looks like people will have to keep claiming in order to maintain a right to a state pension for those years.

ragged Thu 07-Oct-10 13:10:37

If you can afford it, there is the option of paying NI to qualify for state pension, no??

bb99 Fri 08-Oct-10 12:32:36

Unfortunately as we are investing heavily in our house via the mortgage, to help support our future pension (s), we can't afford to top up my NI contributions at the moment.

Oh well, maybe I could sell a kidney wink

poppyknot Fri 08-Oct-10 14:34:52

Have sent an email about this to an MSP and if I get a reply I will pass it on. (My original email ws acknowledged but it was written beofre I had worked out the loss of this.)

The silence over this aspect in the press is deafening but in the long term it might prove to be the bigger loss.

bb99 Fri 08-Oct-10 15:58:40

TIA Poppyknot - I have emailed so many MPs their poor in-boxes must be melting grin

Ineedmorechocolatenow Fri 08-Oct-10 16:06:32

I'm curious to know this too....

swissmiss Fri 08-Oct-10 16:18:40

.. me too ...

bb99 Sun 10-Oct-10 21:20:59

Well I am going to continue to claim CB and then they can get it back through the tax on DH, as he will declare it. This will atleast keep my Home Responsibility Protection (?) credits as so far there is just the vague notion that the Pensions Minister will somehow use his Jedi and omnipotent powers to ensure I still receive them if I am good enough to save on the old paperwork and stop claiming CB...

Another interesting question - what constitues a household and merged families.

DD's father has never paid maintenance for her - yes it's shocking and I was on benefits for 2 years while I found my feet...

So, can I keep her CB?

swissmiss Mon 11-Oct-10 10:31:11

DH and I have purposefully split the CB claims (more than 1 dc) between us so we both get HRP credits, as advised to by claims office. DH is contractor and work is irregular (can be 12+mths) so he then stays home and I try and get temp work. It'd be crazy if we both loose our HRP credits.

Also due to irregular work some years he hits 40% but others he does not. How will they cope with that kind of adjustment? All retrospectively I guess like the current Child Tax Credits so you don't actually have the extra money at the time you really need it!!!!

bb no idea how they will class "merged families" etc or if you will be allowed to keep DD's CB. Looks like keeping claiming it for you would make most sense and HMRC can rely on your/DH's honesty

afterglow Tue 12-Oct-10 15:34:23

I emailed my MP to ask about how NI credits would be affected by the loss of CB for sah/low earning partners of higher rate taxpayers. She has today sent a very long reply (standard) that does not actually mention NI, HRP or pensions. So I've asked her again, as she (or her staff) clearly did not read beyond Child Benefit in the subject field. If need be we will continue to claim CB and repay it, in order to receive the pension credits, but this seems a very cumbersome and inefficient way to do it. I remain hopeful that this is something that will be sorted. However if I don't get a decent answer to my latest email I may well put in a FOI request asking how much money will be saved by not paying these pension contributions.

poppyknot Tue 12-Oct-10 17:04:15

Good for you afterglow. A couple of my emails have been acknowleged but as yet no answers.

I think the HRP bit is really important and does not seem to have been picked up enough in the press to get an answer from any of the "it's the fairest way to do it" crew.

dollius Tue 12-Oct-10 19:52:23

I can tell you the answer to this. The government (DWP) has stated that women will not lose the NI credits as a result of losing child benefit. However, they have yet to say how they will ensure this. The crucial thing will be whether they introduce some other way of automatically giving credits to women when they have a baby, or if they will rely on women to claim it. If the latter, then v poor show cos a lot won't.

LadyLapsang Tue 12-Oct-10 21:04:17

Worth remembering you only need 30 years NI contributions now to get a full state pension in your own right, so even if you had about 17 years out of the workplace during your full potential earning life you would still qualify. Obviously if you choose to take time out early on for HE (if you weren't working part-time & earning enough to pay NI) then you would either have to top up or have less time on a career break later.

swissmiss Tue 12-Oct-10 21:04:35

dollius but what about SAHDs' NI credits???? It's not just women who look after children instead of being in paid employment/paying NI.

PanicMode Wed 13-Oct-10 14:14:50

I'm still waiting for my MP to respond on the pension credits issue too......

sincitylover Wed 13-Oct-10 14:34:21

Bit of a different position as not SAHM but single parent potentially affected - have written to MP (no reply yet) and also just emailed DC at no 10 after hearing him again say it's fair.

No it isn't - suggested he look at the bankers or people like Lord Ashcroft - residnet in three countries etc

PanicMode Wed 13-Oct-10 15:31:38

sincitylover - I made that point about the non doms too....

afterglow Fri 15-Oct-10 15:34:53

Well I had a completely useless reply. It was a standard spiel about hard decisions, fairness, broad shoulders which somehow managed not to mention HRP, NIC or pensions. Obviously my original 3 line question about what would happen to the NI contributions under HRP that are triggered by the receipt of child benefit wasn't clear enough. So I have asked her again in my clearest possible emboldened English.

How can it possibly be an efficient use of HMRC time to reclaim child benefit in this way? It will certainly take a big chunk out of the savings.

dinosaur Fri 15-Oct-10 15:37:47

I am a fulltime WOHP and my partner is a fulltime SAHP and I am hoping that if he carries on claiming CB, they will adjust my tax code to claw it back from me that way. It would certainly seem very unfair if it adversely affects his NI contributions.

Xenia Fri 15-Oct-10 22:27:06

A number of publications and programmes have had reasonably certain confirmed that these will not be affected.

afterglow Fri 29-Oct-10 15:31:33

I had another reply saying that I had raised valid points and she would forward them to the Treasury and get back to me.

Xenia, I would love to see something on a government publication that actually confirms this, a few people have said "There was something on Moneybox..." but I'd really like to see it writing. Anyone have any links?

Chil1234 Fri 29-Oct-10 15:43:49

National Insurance If you check the link you'll find that thre is reference to NI credits being automatically given to people claiming CB for a child under 12. There is also reference to people falling outside the 'automatic' groups making separate claims for NI credits if they are carers. I would read that - in relation to the future changes - that someone not qualifying for CB in the future but who is a full-time parent or carer nevertheless would make a separate claim. HTH

huddspur Fri 29-Oct-10 15:46:35

Why should someone who isn't working be given National Insurance contributions?

Chil1234 Fri 29-Oct-10 15:58:03

Credits reflect that full-time parents and carers are doing valuable but unpaid work.. Don't think that's unreasonable.

huddspur Fri 29-Oct-10 16:05:28

I'm not against it going to carers but I wouldn't give them to SAHPs who were doing no form of work at all.

Chil1234 Fri 29-Oct-10 16:10:32

I think you're being deliberately controversial huddspur wink. Many parents (usually women) were, in the past, unable to get a full state pension if they'd taken a few years off paid employment to look after their children pre-school-age and this knocked on into their retirement. Credits just balance things up fairly.

huddspur Fri 29-Oct-10 16:13:50

No I'm not being controversial, to be honest I'd scrap National Insurance and just have a set state pension for all but if we are going to have a contribution based state pension then I don't think people who aren't in work should recieve national insurance credits with a few exceptions and being a SAHP isn't one.

afterglow Sat 30-Oct-10 17:06:29

It could well be case that "one size fits all" pension that they're talking about will make all of this more simple and remove the need for them to be paid. Where women haven't paid enough contributions then I believe that other benefits/topups are (currently) possible to reach the basic pension level.

My simple gripe is that if these are being scrapped too, then that should be evaluated and announced as such, rather than just leaving people scrabbling around the internet trying to see if their NIC contributions are vanishing along with their child benefit.

I will check out that NI link, thank you.

CardyMow Sat 30-Oct-10 17:25:29

OK Huddspur - what about parents who work PT to fit in around childcare, if they aren't earning enough to pay NI, and their DH is a HRT payer? Not my situation, but surely then they would lose their HRP (pension protection) if they were unable to claim CB? Fair?

I've already worked PT quite a lot in the pst, at below the NI threshold. It turns out that I already have 4 yrs worth of NI contributions to make up, and have been told that it will cost £50 a month for an entire year to make upeach of those 4 yrs I'm missing. So a total of £600 for each year I was working PT. A total (so far) of £2,400.

What worries me is that due to my disability, I will never again earn enough to go over the NI threshold. If I lost my CB (when youngest is 12?) I would end up with NO entitlement to a state pension. How is that fair?

ISNT Sat 30-Oct-10 19:20:35

Looking after small children is being a carer.

It's what I seem to do when I'm at home anyway. And when I go to work I give them to someone else to care for them.

Since when is caring for children not a caring role?

merrymouse Sat 30-Oct-10 19:34:33

Yes - you make a claim for child benefit from one department and they pay you, then you tick the box asking your partner's tax to be adjusted accordingly by another department.

Really it is such a straight forward, simple, simple system. There is no point ironing out any complicated anomalies that would make it less wonderfully simple!

merrymouse Sat 30-Oct-10 19:36:13

Sorry, I meant No!

merrymouse Sat 30-Oct-10 20:30:59

afterglow - I think you're right - if the flat rate pension scheme is in force by 2013, NI contributions won't be relevant.

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 13:29:06

Loudlass I would do away with NI contribution and give everyone a set state pension when they reach retirement age.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 16:25:08

That doesn't seem to follow. On the one hand you are against giving a full state pension to people who have taken time out of work to raise children, on the other hand you advocate giving everyone a state pension irrespective of how much time they have spent in paid employment.

If you are for giving a pension to everyone, why be against accrual for people who are having time out to raise children?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 16:39:04

I just make the point that if we are going to have a contribution based state pension system then I would make people actually have to make a contribution in order to get a NI credit. A SAHM is no more contributing to the funding of her state pension than a person who is unemployed but the SAHM is given a years worth of NI credits.

As I said I don't believe in a contribution based state pension but if we are going to have one then someone should to pay a contribution in order for it to count as a years contribution.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 17:04:56

Unemployed people get credit while they sign on AFAIK. Certainly they used to.

Do on that basis would you still not pay them for women who are taking time out to look after children?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 17:09:47

I'm pretty sure that unemployed people get no NI credits. If we are going to have a contribution based system then no I wouldn't pay women NI credits who have taken time out to look after their children as they aren't paying any form of contribution.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 17:11:01

Yes they do, I know that people on JSA so as I did when I received at for a while.

I don't know the ins and outs of all the benefits but at least some unemployed people get NI credit. That is part of the point of signing on.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 17:12:46

A quick google says that you get NI credits for ESA as well (I think that's what replaced income support).

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 17:16:51

I've just googled it and it seems you are right and looking at NI is an even bigger farce then I thought it was

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 17:24:15

So on the basis that unemployed people get credits, you would possibly be persuaded that women who take time out to raise children, but are not on a low enough income to claim benefits, should also receive the credits.. ?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 17:28:08

No I wouldn't give anyone who isn't working and actually paying NI credits (with a few exceptions eg disabled carers), if we are going to carry on with the contribution system.

Personally I'd give everyone a set state pension at retirement age but if we're going to make people 'pay' for their state pension then they should be actually paying something.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 17:39:40

Yes but on the current system, as it stands, do you agree that women who are taking some time out to look after children should receive credits, as they do at the moment through signing up for child ben?

I don't get this - I get child benefit, but took voluntary redundancy when I was pg. Since then I've had letters saying I am going to have a contributions gap and giving me an amount I can pay to cover it while I am not working...are you saying that because I claim CB, I should have informed them of this when I got the letter and my contributions would have covered?

"would have BEEN covered" obv.

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 17:47:31

No because the Government is decieving people. They peddle the line that you pay national insurance in order to get a full state pension for yourself but in fact you are paying national insurance for your state pension and other peoples who are not working or paying NI but who are given NI credits.
If we're going to carry on with the NI system, then the only way to get NI credits should be by paying NI with a few exceptions (taking time out to look after children is not one). If peoples NI contributions were linked to only their state pensions then we could lower the NI rate.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 17:49:28

It may be that the contribution level provided in credits is lower that what you pay when working - there are 4 different levels of NI conts. Something to do with that I expect.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 17:51:15

You won't answer my question huddspur. I understand how you want the system changed. What I am asking is, with the system how it is now, do you think that women who are taking some time out to look after children should get NI credits, or not.

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 17:51:49

No

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 17:59:45

Interesting.

So unemployed people - yes
Disabled people - yes
Women who are caring for children and are low income - yes
People who are caring for people who aren't children, unless they are disabled - yes
People in prison - yes

Other women - no

Interesting. I can't for the life of me imagine why you would feel like that.

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 18:01:56

The only people on your list who I would give them to are disabled people.

The others on your list wouldn't get them either but as said earlier I would abolish the whole thing if I had my way.

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 18:03:05

Sorry I would also give them to carers of disabled people

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 18:05:11

You are evading my question.

With things how they are now, do you think that women who take some time out to care for children, and who are not low enough income to claim benefits, should get NI credits?

Or are they the one group of people in society who should be excluded from accessing a full state pension? As they were in the past.

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 18:11:31

I don't see how I'm evading your question

Would I give NI credits to someone who isn't paying NI except for a few exceptions? No

Are SAHMs who have a high income the only group what would be exluded by this measure? No it would exclude anyone of working age who isn't working with a few exceptions

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 18:16:27

You are not answering my question at all.

You keep answering completely different questions, saying how you think it should be.

In the current system, where unemployed people etc get NI credits, do you think that women who are taking time out of work to raise children should be given pension credits? Or not?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 18:21:45

No they shouldn't

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 18:42:03

Very interesting. So out of all the people in society, of all of those working or out of work, out of everyone, you single women (as it almost always is women) who have had children out to not receive a benefit that everyone else receives, irrespective of whether they work or not.

Why do you not believe that raising children has any value to society? Out of interest.

You are perfectly comfortable with the situation highlighted in this article, presumably. Very cheerful with a situation where millions of elderly women live in poverty.

Why is that?

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 18:43:18

Hmm millions may be an exaggeration.

An awful lot, then. And with women having very little income in their old age compared to men. This is a good state of affairs? Why?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 18:49:00

I've already outlined earlier in the thread what I would do if I were in charge

And to be honest if you haven't paid in then I'm not too sympathetic that you can't draw out. I don't accept the argument that you can't work and raise children at the same time.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 18:53:38

But why are you giving credits to everybody, except women who are taking time out to raise children?

And you are not sympathetic to the plight of elderly women living in poverty?

Out of interest, what about the credits paid during maternity leave?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 18:57:45

I don't want to give credits to everybody. If we are to keep the national insurance system then I think you should only get credits when you pay NI.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 19:01:48

You stated earlier that you don't think that women who are looking after children should get NI credits, within the current system, where everyone else does.

I understand that you don't like the current system.

However given that is the system that we are working with, it seems harsh to single women who are looking after children out and say that they should not get credits. While everyone else does get credits.

I would have thought that it would be more in line with your thoughts to say that women who are bringing up children should get credits, given all the other groups who do. But you can't bring yourself to say that.

Why not? What is it about women/children that leads you to want to punish them in this way?

Why do you have no sympathy with the plight of elderly women living in poverty?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 19:11:00

I would give them to single women looking after children provided they were working and at least paying some NI, just not to people who aren't working and so paying nothing in.

I have some sympathy for women in poverty and believe that the Government should keep with the current income related state pension but if we are having a contribution based system then it stands to reason that people who have made insufficient pension contributions don't get the full pension.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 19:29:18

So you would allow women who are working and paying NI to benefit from the state pension. That's very big of you hmm

The current state pension isn't income related. it's much more complicated than that. People who have paid a certain amount + years NI conts qualify for full state pension. People who have paid some NI/years but not enough qualify for reduced state pension. In previous generations, society expected women to give up paid work when they had children. Some jobs ceased womens employment automatically when they married / had children. That was longer ago but there will be women who experienced that alive now. These women therefore have reduced pensions as they have not paid enough in. There is a mechanism by which people on very low incomes can get a bit extra - I think this was brought in due to this problem (lots of elderly women in poverty).

I cannot see how anyone can shout that these women deserve a reduced state pension.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 19:32:05

I also cannot understand how anyone can say that in the current situation, pretty much everyone in every situation has their NI conts kept up, but this should be removed from one specific group, women who are taking time out to look after children. You have not been clear about why in your opinion this group is less entitled to assistance than any other group in society.

Why do you not count caring for children as caring? What do you think is involved with the job of looking after children, if not caring?

Do you believe that women should have NI conts paid while they are on mat leave?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 19:44:50

I'm working from the idea that if you have a contribution based system then you have to make a contribution in order to access it. If you've contributed through NI that you should get it if you haven't then largely you shouldn't. Obviously I'm not advocating that people should left to starve but they should not get a full state pension when they haven't paid for it.

With regards to the current system I've already stated what I would like to see happen.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 19:58:02

You keep pulling back from my questions.

You have said that under the current system, as it is, you would like to see NI credits removed from women who are taking time out to look after their children. I don't understand why you're singling them out in this way.

Do you think that women should get NI credits while on mat leave?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 20:02:19

Yeah I'd give you NI credits on maternity leave as long as you continued to pay NI.

I don't want to single out SAHP, I want to stop people who are not paying NI getting NI credits.

SnoozyLucy Sun 31-Oct-10 20:22:34

I'd say anyone doing some kind of work (bringing up a child is work) or unavoidably prevented from working should receive NI credits, yes it's a contribution based system but those who have an 'excuse' to be temporarily out of the system should be protected (especially when many will go on to pay NI again but may be unlucky and just miss the required years).

Just to play devil's advocate huddspur and not implying anything about my views but am interested to know why you seem to value carers of a disabled child (or adult) as more 'excusable' or more valuable than carers of a non-disabled child or any other group mentioned?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 20:31:57

I value carers for the disabled because as a parent you are obliged to care for that child but caring for a disabled child goes beyond that.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 20:33:36

?

People who are paying NI don't get NI credit AFAIK. NI credits are for people who are not paying NI.

So would you provide NI credit for people on mat leave when they are not paying NI?

You have singled out parents, more than once.

I also don't understand why caring for a child does not count as "caring".

SnoozyLucy Sun 31-Oct-10 20:38:30

Well even parents of disabled children chose to have a child, although obviously didn't choose the disability - if they'd chosen to take time out to bring their child up from birth would you only give them NI credits when the care the child needed became over and above that of the average child?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 20:39:08

Sorry ISNT I'm being lazy regarding terms, if you wanted the period on maternity leave to count towards your NI contributions then you would have to be paying NI.
I think that if you have children then you are obliged to care for them and I don't accept the argument that just because you have a child then you are incapable of working and paying NI (I would bring the starting thresholds for paying NI down).

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 20:40:56

No if they don't require more than the amount of care than a non-disabled child requires then they don't get NI credits.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 20:41:27

So that's a no to women receiving NI credits during a period of mat leave where they are not paying NI. Right?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 20:43:32

Yeah unless they choose to pay voluntary NI.

SnoozyLucy Sun 31-Oct-10 20:49:05

So the only reason to get NI credits in your argument is if your child ends up needing more care than you could reasonably have anticipated? Using that premise would parents of unusually aggressive/violent children suddenly make themselves eligible for NI credits? Or those who unexpectedly have quads but not, say, twins? Or what about if you knew your baby was disabled very early in pregnancy and chose to carry on with the pregnancy (my SIL's situation, am not just picking that to be arsey) - you could have anticipated the work involved then, so do you exempt yourself from the NI credits?

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 20:52:58

Are you going to provide free or subsidised childcare so that women can get back to work as soon as they have given birth?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 20:56:37

No your child would have to have a medical condition and the level of extra care would have to go beyond a set point.
Of course I would allow the parents of a disabled child to have them even if they knew beforehand that the child would have a disability and would need extra care. It is abhorrent to me that someone would terminate a pregnancy just because the child would need more care.

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 20:59:34

ISNT I think childcare provison needs looking at very seriously

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 21:02:07

You would allow the women to continue with their pregnancies?

And you would allow mothers who worked and paid NI to be eligible for a state pension?

Gosh you're magnanamous hmm

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 21:04:44

It would disgust me if someone had an abortion purely because that child had a disability.

I don't see whats wrong with making women (and men) have to make NI contributions in order to get the state pension.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 21:11:02

You're not though, you've repeatedly said that in the current situation you would remove NI credits from people (usually women) taking time out of work to raise children. So pretty much everyone would end up with a full state pension except for women who had taken time out to raise children.

You also want to remove NI credits from women when they are on mat leave.

It seems to me that you really have it in for women TBH.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 21:13:17

Everything you are saying amounts to women being punished financially for having children.

They are already punished financially for having children in the workplace, you want to extend that to the welfare state as well.

I find your politics utterly offensive TBH, but I think you have probably guessed that by now. I assume you find my desire to look after people in our society who are vulnerable, equally repulsive.

SnoozyLucy Sun 31-Oct-10 21:18:12

There's nothing wrong with it per se but there are people that can't make NI contributions that should be protected against losses in their state pension. Choosing to care for a child past the time when you can pay NI contributions isn't necessarily a bad thing! Nor is being out of work if you really can't help it, or childcare around you being so expensive that it doesn't pay to work, especially at the 'pre-1' stage. Some people make a significant non-financial contribution to their community (or at least their families who will then grow up to make a financial contribution to the community) and if they need help to balance that up against their future then why not?

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 21:20:41

I don't have it in for women I just don't think that you shouldn't get NI credits that count towards your NI contribution when you aren't paying anything towards that pension. Currently they are being given something for nothing.

Sickandsicker Sun 31-Oct-10 21:21:11

I'm not sure people need to be so concerned about getting credits for a state pension these days, with the Pension Credit for those who don't have enough NI credits but are on a low income.

My neighbour had very few credits as she only moved to this country towards the end of her working life. She didn't qualify for a pension but got Pension Credit. It's a higher amount than the state pension too (although I think most people who get state pension also have a private one so they are better off overall). It's much higher than standard income support though.

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 21:25:13

ISNT I don't find your views repulsive, I just don't agree with them

byrel Sun 31-Oct-10 21:36:53

Interesting discussion between ISNT and Huddspur whilst I see where Huddspur is coming from I think she is being a bit draconian although I find the idea that someone in prison is getting NI credits outrageous.

ISNT Sun 31-Oct-10 21:40:12

I don't think that people get it while in prison. The blurb says they can be credited if their convictions are subsequently quashed.

byrel Sun 31-Oct-10 21:54:46

Thanks for clarifying ISNT

huddspur Sun 31-Oct-10 21:58:43

I don't think I am being draconian you see byrel, I just don't see why people should get a full state pension that they haven't paid for. My mum has never worked in her life and my dad hasn't worked since I was 6 (I'm 24) and the idea that in this time both of them have been recieving NI credits that help contribute to their state pension shocks me.

byrel Sun 31-Oct-10 22:08:59

I see why you would want to clamp down on people doing what your parents have done but I still think you are taking it too far the other way. Although I do agree that some women use having children as an excuse not to work.

vixel Sun 31-Oct-10 23:48:29

I agree with Huddspur why should you be given NI contributions when you're not working and not paying NI.

LilyBolero Mon 01-Nov-10 00:14:05

But if you haven't paid NI, what are you supposed to live on when you reach pensionable age? It's all very well saying 'don't give credits', but our society is one that doesn't (in theory) allow people to actually starve to death.

I tend to think that there are ways of contributing to society that are more general than just financial. For example, I am a SAHM, but I do some part time work (not enough to pay NI though), I look after our 4 kids, I also volunteer in school 2 or 3 afternoons per week - reduce everything to pounds and pence and you lose a wealth of contribution. If you look at the amount of time given to schools by SAHMs and calculated how much that would cost in £££ to hire in, it would be obvious that they were contributing in ways they are able. To then punish by removing pension is punitive and wrong.

huddspur Mon 01-Nov-10 08:29:54

LilyBolero I would keep the basic state pension that is given out to those who have no other form of income in old age, I just wouldn't give them a full state pension.

ISNT Mon 01-Nov-10 09:11:11

I don't understand why you insist that in the current situation you would remove NI credits from people who are taking time out to have children, and women on maternity leave, but keep it for everyone else.

You keep saying what you want in an idea world, but the situation we have is not that. In this world lots of people who are not working receive NI credit, but still you would remove them from women on maternity leave and from women (it usually is women) who are taking some time out to look after children.

I don't understand why you want to penalise mothers in this way. I can't see the logic - there isn't any. You seem to just particularly dislike women who have children.

All this not having sympathy for elderly women in poverty - why not? Some of them come from a time when they were not allowed to work after children - why punish them for this?

ISNT Mon 01-Nov-10 09:17:24

Do you basically think that only very wealthy women people should be allowed to have children? Your idea that women should work up until they give birth and return to work immediately after they have given birth is impossible for many. What about breastfeeding?

It seems that women who dare to have children need to be punished. Why?

ISNT Mon 01-Nov-10 09:18:24

You say you don't agree with abortion but frankly the scheme you are proposing would result in a big increase in terminations.

LilyBolero Mon 01-Nov-10 09:51:15

huddspur, you have ignored the bit of my post that points out that many people contribute in other ways - volunteering in school being an obvious example. If you removed the NI credits system, you would need to plough a lot more money into the education budget to replace the time many parents give for free at present. School trips would become unviable, reading standards (particularly for those struggling) would plummet, school swimming wouldn't be able to happen etc etc. And that's only one area. You can't just punish people who are being 'useful' members of society. And bringing up children is a very 'useful' thing to do too - they after all will keep the economy going after the current workforce retires, and without a viable economy we have no hospitals, police etc.

ISNT Mon 01-Nov-10 09:53:25

huddspur do you agree with paid maternity leave?

beobelle Mon 01-Nov-10 12:53:40

This is an interesting thread, I do see where Huddspur is coming from with regards to the Government telling everyone that the NI they pay is going towards their pension but that it is also going towards other peoples state pensions who aren't working or paying NI but are recieving NI credits. I also see where she is coming from in regards to some women using children as a reason not to work and that this needs to be discouraged and this certainly would disincentivise this.
Lily getting involved in helping the community is something you can do as well as working and raising children so I don't really accept that argument.

LilyBolero Mon 01-Nov-10 13:09:04

beobelle, yes of course you can, BUT, the point is that people who aren't working, aren't necessarily non-contributors - and so it seems rough to then deny them the full state pension. That was my point. From my point of view, if the pension credit system wasn't in place, I would have to work far more than I do (I work part-time at home, don't earn enough for NI contributions though), so would be far more reticent to give up precious time with the baby to go and help out in school. And anyone working fulltime would be unable to go into schools during the day anyway.

I really do think contribution should be rewarded, not just number of £££s put in.

baildonwen Mon 01-Nov-10 16:36:27

I think Huddspur is right if you are going to have this extra tax in order to pay for the state pension then you should actually have to pay it in order to get the state pension.

CardyMow Mon 01-Nov-10 21:24:47

But what about if you have a disability, that you don't qualify for disability benefits with, you can only work PT due to this disability, and the only job you can find that will employ you is for minimum wage. A 20 hr a week job at minimum wage is under the NI threshold. You are disabled. You are working. Yet despite this you don't qualify for a full state pension? hmm.

So even if your DP/DH works FT and pays NI, and you have something (be it childcare/disability/SN dc/caring for elderly relatives/combo of all 4 in my case) and you try to work PT around all that...you don't get a full state pension??

byrel Mon 01-Nov-10 21:58:22

Loudlass I think earlier in her posts Hudd says she would lower the NI threshold

legostuckinmyhoover Mon 01-Nov-10 21:59:23

thats kind of her hmm

commonsensey Sat 10-Nov-12 21:25:19

no I am afraid you cant count bringing up children as 'caring' in this sense. how much time off work is really needed (physically) to have a child - a couple of weeks? Anything more is a lifestyle choice. And why would you assume that disabled people should get it, don't they already get benefits associated with disability? We might be sympathetic, but saying that they should get every benefit going is a tad patronising.

jellybeans Mon 12-Nov-12 22:21:45

It is sad that some people describe SAHMs as never having done 'a days work in their life'. I heard this phrase recently about an elderly mother of 3. In my eyes caring for young children is work albeit unpaid. It would be work if it was someone else's child....
My Grandmother was a SAHM and never did paid work after marriage but raised five kids. She did a lot of voluntary work when the kids were older and enabled her husband to work whatever hours he could to gain a top job. I would say some people that 'work' have it easier than SAHP. Many people shirk on internet or laze about on the job. Paid work doesn't mean hard work yet unpaid could be. It is sad that some people value only paid work as it devalues SAHP, volunteers, people with learning difficulties, elderly, disabled people etc.

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