he's not homophobic though, 2 of his best friends are gay!

Hmm kittywise ...I think that if your DP did make the 'gay' comment he's fair game for personal attacks. About his homophobia and closed-mindedness. I think that if my DH has said that I'd keep it quiet.

Oh FGS!!!

nooka, what's the point of posting that?
I don't care what reasons/excuses you make, the fact is people chose to write what they did, they chose to attack, I chose not to.
It's always choice
I made the better one imo.

The comments about your dh are entirely due to you deciding to bring his opinions (or what purport to be his opinions) to the thread. I cannot believe that you are surprised that many people have reacted to his apparent homophobia in a negative way, and made comments about him personally.

No, I think not

kittywise - I am limited in this way and so it seems are you. You're commenting on a made up name that could mean anything or as is the case - nothing.

Kitty I am not in the least offended - as you say - you don't know my Dp or anything about him other than what have stated here

But you still said
'If I had to chose another partner( which I won't) for example I would absolutely not be attracted in any way to a man like your dh. I would always go for someone who to me was more masculine.'

I could be offended by that but I know that he is 100% male and therefore am quite un-offendable on that score (wonders if that word exists...)

cestlavie the subtle difference is that I have not launched any personal attacks. If anyone choses to feel 'attacked' by a general comment I have made then the issue is with them. It cannot be personal, I don't know any of you personally.
There are comments on this thread directed at my dp, however, that are personal in the sense that they are directed at him and not 'a male'.

I just can't stay away from this thread (I should try). Actually kittywise, you should entirely expect to be attacked on here as you've insulted many people's partners (plus the guys on here) with your comments from the outset, for example.

"I can't abide a man-woman who acts like he is a woman as far a kids go, makes me want to barf." (Wasn't that your first post?)

"Men like who try to act like being women and act all empathetic are very unattractive and not at all manly." etc.

Whether you're winding people up (quite possible) or actually believe these things, they're really rather insulting. Playing the faux-innocent "Gosh, what I have said?" is rather tragic since you would have to be really quite stupid to think that people wouldn't be offended by being told that their partners are "very unattractive", "not at all manly". "make you want to barf" or are "saddos".

Equally, saying "Hey, don't take offence, just my opinion" is also a rather pitiful way of trying to escape any responsibility and is usually used by unpleasant people as their defence, e.g. "Women should stay in the kitchen where they belong, but hey, that's just my opinion, don't take offence" If you want dish out antagonistic views (believing them or not) you should expect some back.

And quite frankly, if you're happy to post "DP has just had a quick look through this thread, he had a good laugh then has now wandered off... whilst muttering something about 'gays'" then you should expect your DP to get every bit of flak that comment merits, whether he said it in jest or not (sadly I fear the latter).

I think this thread shows a huge amount of hypocrisy. I also don't understand why anyone should be eying up other men when they are apparently happily married. I find lots of behaviour annoying, and baby talk is one of them. What difference does it make if it's from a man or a woman, a granny, nanny, mum or dad? Splitting tasks, emotions or actions along strict gender lines is so limiting. I choose to be myself. I go to work. I do the DIY. I manage my money. Does that make me a "woman-man"? Of course not. So why does having an active interest in your own children make you a "man-women".

I think Kitty and her dh are a) homophobic and b) have an issue with men who they perceive as effeminate. Oh and probably c) don't respect women very much either if it is so scary to be perceived as in any way doing anything that could be perceived as a woman's role, when you are not a woman (and therefore apparently have to do whatever the role entails). But what has it got to do with them, and why do they think this is an acceptable viewpoint I wonder. Still better than Moondog who thinks that everyone shares these views. Very sad.

bumdiddley, your only mode of defense is to insult it seems, how sad that you are so limited in this way.

The only thing you appear to have actually taken care to consider is the aptness of your name, yep, the name speaks volumes.

"I think they look like right saddos that's all."

But mums who do this don't look like saddos??

Keep taking the pills kittywise

DDf. like the wedding dress btw and hope you have a great day

SuperSillyus ta x

Abouteve that's how I feel too

bumdiddley of course they can roll around in softplay areas, there are no rules. I think they look like right saddos that's all.

I'm not accusing anyone's DP's of anything, just saying I have met men that are overly soppy and they turn me off.

Bumdiddley - of course men are allowed to 'rol around' if they wish!!! was merely sating that my Dp didn't do that because neither does his DD.

Honestly - where do these rules come from? We must have missed the bit where the Midwife only hands over your baby when you've signed the T's & C's dictating what the male and female parental roles are!!!

Oh blast, that's the second time this week I've posted something twice. Should leave the men to do the computer stuff

This thread is funny. I liked the two Ronnies clip

I love Kitty and she livens up a thread rightly.

I think paternity leave is important. It's up to each family how they use it.
I would like to see more support for family life in the workplace and in general in society. I think if people are allowed to strike a balance it is healthier for everyone.

My dh is usually a total caveman though actually he can't dig holes or put up shelves...I do that (but in a very feminine way of course .)

Why can't men roll around in soft play areas? Are women 'allowed' to do it?

Surely if man is full time carer of the children then they should be 'allowed' to do this.

Sorry if I sound facetious - it is a genuine question.

Why can't men roll around in soft play areas? Are women 'allowed' to do it?

Surely if man is full time carer of the children then they should be 'allowed' to do this.

Sorry if I sound facetious - it is a genuine question.

But Abouteve...my Dp does not talk in a 'womanly voice' nor does he 'roll around' in soft play areas...but what he does do..if the place is busy and there are alot of older children in there is hover around DD to ensure she is not pushed or shoved and does not get herself in the way of rough and tumble older boys.
He has saved her from a couple of potentially nasty acidents and as I stated before, has saved other people's children too.
Soft play to a 3 yr old can be quite dangerous at the weekend when full of rampaging 7 yr olds - he just makes sure she's enjoying herself and safe. he knows I laugh abour his 'helicopter' parenting - but in no way do I think it feminine behaviour...after all - I don't do it!!!

I was posting on this thread a couple of days ago and made a general remark which got a few backs up. I was also called stupid for it too. DDF I'm so glad you realised that your deleted post was nasty, I thought that when I read it last night.

I've had partners who have shopped for my tampax etc. Split the chores 50/50 and have been wonderful hands on dads to their kids which IMO is as it should be. I've also had a partner who used to bubble like a baby when his DD was returned to her mum and it did put me off him. I don't like to see grown men rolling around in soft play areas and talking in baby voices, at least in public! There is nothing wrong with liking men who are more masculine, as the saying goes viva la difference.

Moondog, what on earth are you talking about? women don't despise supportive partners. A man can buy sanitary towels, change nappies, look after children, earn a living and still be incredibly attractive and sexy and manly imo.

And companies absolutely CAN and SHOULD be supportive of families, including fathers otherwise women get left to do it all. And that's not fair. It's not bloody hard to shuffle the work around to accomodate it.

Kittywise - you have insinuated that men who look after children are gay, sorry your thrusting manly dp suggested that

Oh gawd - dh is a SAHD AND an artist. He must be, in your eyes a raving poofter.

Kitty - I asked for my post to be deleted because it was unfair....Unfair to pick up on one element of your life and judge you on a snap shot in time.
However this, in part, is what you are doing to my DP (whom I guess I am uber-sensitive about at the mo as we are gtting married in 2 weeks and he has been so lovely i would feel disloyal if I didn't stick up for him).
He was and still is very masculne. He did Judo at top levels for many years...he is incredibly strong and is often asked to go and help friends with manual taks etc

Whatever he does for his children he does as a man not a woman - my denfensive stance came from you assumption that to be able to do (almost)everything a woan could he would have to be womanly in his appearance/manerisms too.
I think he stunned himself when his daughter was born - felt he had been pole-axed with love and there was NOTHING he couldn't imagine doing to keep her safe and happy.
Is that such a feminine thing? I think not - I think it is a fatherly thing...a parental thing even.

Also - some gay men are VERY masculine...they are not all media stereotypes y'know!
I'm sorry if you feel picked on - I did rectify my part in that as soon as I could.

DDf thanks for shedding some light.

Yes I have grumbles about aspects of my relationship, everyone does. Sometimes I am more indignant than others, but it passes and in general I am happy, although of course there are times when I'm not.
HOWEVER, on balance it's ok.

If I had to chose another partner( which I won't) for example I would absolutely not be attracted in any way to a man like your dh. I would always go for someone who to me was more masculine.

I haven't got rose tinted specs even though you might think I have. I am infact very pragmatic and not at all living with my head in the clouds.
My life works for me and I could not live in a way most of you here seem very happy to.
I have not said that it is better than anyone else's, I have not been insulting, certainly not compared to a good many on here.
My dp has been attacked by people on here in a way that I certainly haven't attacked anyone else's partner. Yet this has been overlooked .
I think that is pretty hypocritical and small minded.
I can cut and paste if you like?

my dad made me sanitary towels out of cotton wool and muslin cloth when I was a teenager on on holiday once and no shops were open on a Sunday. Weird, but it did convince me he would do anything at all to give me what I need. Made me feel very loved.

sorry should read 'not through'

Kitty I merely read an older post of yours that was through shall we say through such 'rose-tinted' specs as you've had on today. It made things a little clearer for me but I didn't think it fair to link to it.
Enough said.

Well luckily companies don't get any choice about paternal leave, so no faffing around there is there? It's a legal right, and good job too, because contrary to Moondog's strange assertion many women do not despise their supportive partners.

You'd think we were living in the dark ages from some of the things said on this thread

Oh and why should anyone have an issue with who buys sanitary items? Are periods supposed to be some terrible secret to be hidden at all costs (my mum believes this, but she is in her 70's FGS!)

Clear? depends what glasses one is wearing it seems
Didn't read deleted post, shame

Yes..I regretted that immediately...
The picture is very clear. End of story.

Eeek! I may be 'singularly dim' DDF, but I'm not nasty! Glad you got rid of that...

But I'm sure you can see my point about the picture painted here.

I actually feel I was a little catty and below the belt with my last post so I deleted it. Sorry

whoever said it earlier was spot on, anyone muttering about "gays" is probably ot that confident in their own sexuality.
the root cause of mot homophobic attitudes imo.

i think this is also a case of the old green eyed monster aswell, some mums that do not get any help can be envious of other that do.

its not really rocket science to work out whats going on here.

'Men I know who are expected to be both breadwinners and then assume the woman's role when they get home, eg, changing nappies cooking etc are pretty unhappy.'

Well, I, a woman, was the sole breadwinner and DH a SAHD. Happy times those were!

Why should I mind looking after my own children when I got home from work?

After I gave birth to DD1, DH held her for several hours whilst I slept.

He absolutely adored spending time with the girls as newborns, and now.

He must be gay, too. Or really a woman with an eight inch cock.

Ouch!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lucky Florence Nightingale ignored all the people who told her that young ladies should not go near men who were ill, or go near battle zones, or try to look after sick soldiers...

And also good job A A Milne did not listen to people who said bonding with your young child by telling stories to them was emasculating...

margoletta, we all have our grumbles about partners. Other threads have nothing to do with this one. Anyone with any knowing , that clearly does not apply to you, does not cross over threads.

You have shown yourself to be singularly dim.

High five to moondog ( I think?)

Glad you weren't offended DDF, as I said earler each to her own.

Different models of work can still get the job done, with the moondog logic why not go back to a 7 day working week and 10 hour day to get more of the work done!

Moondog, you're obsessed with menstruation.

"You know what's wrong with the world. Men buying..... SANITARY TOWELS" <head explodes>

Work needs to be done. Companies can't be farting around giving three day weeeks and flexible hours in order for 'supportive parners' to 'bond' with babies and buy sanitary towels. FFS.

The long hours and full time working culture are a problem for both men and women. So is lack of employer flexibility.

I thought so too Moondog, but Kittywise's DH is the expert on all things MANLY and set us straight earlier in the thread.

I might set up a questionnaire on Dadsnet to sort the men from the boys;

Q1. Do you most resemble:

a. Gene Hunt
b. Sam Tyler
c. Bonnie Tyler

Oh dear..you are just as bad at generalising as Kitty then.

I do not despoise my Dp just because he wants to share the full hands-on experience of bringing up his daughter....why would I want to deny someone what I would hate being denied to me?

I am deadly serious.

Moondog..I hope that sniff of sarcasm is not in my imagination?

Electric? Are you mad?
As emasculating as a nelectric carving knife.

Women whinge about wanting 'supportive partners' (vile expression) but in reality they despise blokes like tihs.

No, only chauvinist pigs know the mystical secrets of the electric screwdriver. Us poor saps have to let our bosses wives do the DIY while we bake cakes.

Will nobody think of the poor fathers...?

Ok as long as they reurn and do manly things with tools.

Wet fleece? Sounds uncomfortable.

So, Dads in the play park on a Saturday morning; is that verboten for the Macho Squad too?

Kitty, I know where you are coming from. I can't bear blokes rolling around soft play with their kids either. Wet fleece wearing farts buying sanitary towels for their wives in Tesco on a Sunday mornig. Bleargh.

You can't miss my Dp in the soft play area kitty.he's the one with the pink blouse and matching lipstick..

Kittywise then you've missed out on knowing some great men. Both dh#1 and dh#2 were besotted with their newborn offspring.

that first line is Kittywise's not mine...forgot the apostrophe's (stupid woman eh, should have stuck to making dinner)

I have actually never known a man with a newborn who really truly wants to to spend a lot of time with it.

what a revolting generalisation. Look around you. YOu are clearly living with men who have not developed since 1955.

It didn't really surprise me to read the sentence about your dh wandering off muttering about gays. In my experience people who want to force others into their own rigid gender roles (or despise others for varying from them) are invariably homophobic too and homophobes tend to marry other homophobes.

I don't think I've ever felt so angry at an MN thread. As the mother of 2 sons I feel you are misrepresenting and labelling men in a really repulsive way.

I really hope if you have ds's you allow them to be 'unmanly' with their own children.

Kittywise...I'm not offended by that.

Funny thing is how many children my DP has prevented from having accidents by actually being in there..not just our own dd. be thankful..perhaps it was/could be one of yours one day..while your DP is reading the paper and interacting with his children

Kittywise- I am astonished by some of your comments on this thread!

Whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I realise there are some people who think some jobs are mens' jobs and some tasks are womens' tasks, I am stunned by the fact that you are selling your life as perfection, and a model of the way men and women should divide the family workload.

You say it yourself- you don't namechange on mn.

'I have no complaints about him.' -well, other, previous threads suggest otherwise.

Actually no offense intended tp dropdeadfred,( you'll take it though to be sure) but your husband fits the bill as far as the feminine man is concerned for me.

I can't be doing with people who roll around in soft play areas with their kids and certainly not men. I find it really, really irritating when my kids are playing in soft play areas and these men,( usually totally oblivious to anyone else's children), follow their child round , waiting for I don't know what to happen, whilst half squashing the poor toddlers in there trying to play.

I think they should go and drink a cup of coffee read the Sunday paper and let the children play, they can do it without adult help

God forbid that any of your children turn out to be gay...their father would be so supportive

Kittywise, your DP does masses of stuff and is very involved with the children - but you can't actually put into words what it is that makes him a "man who behaves like a man" rather than a "man who behaves like a woman" other than him owning an electric screwdriver.

I think you need to search your psyche and examine exactly where these funny statements of yours about "feminine men" are coming from. Are you deeply homophobic, do you think?

Well, yes there is an element of that cestlavie but only because I find the reactions here so unbelievably silly.

Nothing I have said here has been made up though.

UQD: her DP didn't really say that, although it does make the caricature of them that little bit more amusing than it already is. She's merely trying to wind people up.

Dp says that whoever told you about the manual screwdriver is having you on

Men who make nasty jibes about "gays" are usually insecure in their own sexuality, in my experience.

DaDaDa, thankyou, we're doing pretty well!

"ha ha, dp has just had a quick look through this thread, he had a good laugh then has now wandered off with an electric screwdriver in one hand and a bag of screws in the other whilst muttering something about 'gays'."

A real man would have used a manual screwdriver. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

You and your husband sound like a really great match Kittywise. Good for you.

Oh worringaboutit. my dp does masses of stuff, between us we decided what 'jobs'' we would do. He is very involved in the children, I have no complaints about him.
The impression you get is the wrong one.

I'm actually beginning to get the impression now kitty they your attacks on "men who act like women" may well be a defense mechanism to protect yourself from the fact that your husband isn't pulling his weight.

like I said..I will agree to disagree ...

you quoted your DP as saying.......'gays!'

is that not offensive when the only men we were discussing on this thread were fathers in relationships with women?

DDF but saying i don't like feminine men is not sexist or racist. it is not inciting people to acts of violence against those men.

It is a very dangerous place where you try to silence people because their opinions 'offend' you.

kittywise..I shall have to agree to disagree.

I am not taking it personally - but you are wrong in assuming that one person's opinion is not offensive..even if only an opinion.

Why do you think there are laws against sexism and racism...if everyone could speak their opinion, no matter how morally wrong or offensive, society would a very nasty place

ddf. why do you have to take everything so personally?

worryingaboutit. I will try to do that although it is ever so difficult to do in writing, by far more satisfactory to show examples in RL. I will though have to spend some time thinking up examples that make sense.

I don't understand why anyone should get riled by my opinion on men( who to my mind behave in a more 'feminine manner' shall we say) and take it as a personal slur.

It is my opinion. I am not saying "X, your husband is most unattractive because he coos over newborns and wears espardrills"
I would not be offended in the least if someone said " I can't stand those macho men who leave women to change nappies, do the house work etc, they make me feel sick" That's not an offensive thing to say, it's someone's opinion. they are expressing what they like/don't like why would it bother me?. It isn't for example an attack on my family in anyway whatsoever.

pu = pub

'Men I know who are expected to be both breadwinners and then assume the woman's role when they get home, eg, changing nappies cooking etc are pretty unhappy.'



My Dp - the sole breadwinner atm - comes home and literally takes our 3 yr old off in the garden or in the playroom - he sits in her wendy house drinking pretend cups of tea repeatedly with patience that I couldn't show after the first few times...he loves cooking her dinner and he loves bathing her and reading her bedtime stories. He's also the kind of daddy that never goes to the pu, doesn't see friends unless it's as a family with their children too and would change a friend's child's nappy as happily as his own childs.
he insists on accompanying her in and around the soft play areas and has been known to rugby dive in spectacular style to catch her before she falls over.

I guess he's gay.

Kittywise, I've read the whole thread and I'm still confused by what your definition of what your definition of "men acting like women" actually covers?

Perhaps if you could explain what you mean then other posters won't have to keep guessing and "misinterpreting" you.

DDF, I think men should spend time with their kids.
I have at no point said the opposite.
What I PERSONALLY don't like is men who act like women .
Women and men are different, we should be equal but we ARE different.
I don't see what the point of contention is tbh.

Gays???
WTF has being homosexual got to do with men wanting to spend time with their children?

I'm glad you've got your DP - you've taken him off the market for any unsuspecting girls who were looking for equality in a relationship...

IAteRosemary.....That's good then, if we all liked the same sort of men then things would be a bit tricky wouldn't it?

I am not interested in garnering approval and subsequently have I never felt insulted by comments on my life choices.

To be insulted/upset means to take things personally and I don't

I have not made personal slights and I have not made things up, unlike a number of people on this thread.

If that's what you think you have leaned about me then you have not learned very much.

Sorry to reignite a dying thread but kitty, you're not painting either yourself or your DP in a very pleasant light today!

I think all we've learned tonight is that you have a problem with men who aren't rugby-playing homophobes with power tools and an inability to interact with their children on a practical level. I find your posts insulting, pretty much without exception.

Since you're so happy to share with the world what turns you on, I'm pleased to inform you that I find my intelligent, warm, caring, engaging and spectacularly patient SAHD DP extremely attractive and not even a little bit nauseating. And he even changes nappies.

I haven't written one though,

Kittywise - I've just reported your offensive and homophobic post. What a shame you and your DH choose to present yourself in such a light.

I pity your sons.

Well somehow I think you would find it harder to have the same views about "fathers who take an active role in parenting their children" which is what we are talking about here is it not? The words we use do matter.

cestlavie, it's nice and sunny here too. I've played in the garden ( thank you for your interest)and had 2 swims in the pool with the kids. I've just cooked dinner and now I'm popping back here to see what's occurring.

This isn't a wind up

nooka, if that offends you please feel free to substitute it with another term. I couldn't think of anything better, but then I'm very tired. I wish to convey that I find a certain sort of man that behaves in ways we have talked about, like a woman, hence man-woman. I can't see how that is offensive personally. Big girl's blouse though maybe

Okay kittywise. Fair enough and almost passably amusing. You actually had me going for a minute there thinking you actually thought like this. Nothing better to do with your day than just wind people up I take it. It's a sunny day where I am... wouldn't you be better off playing nicely in the garden instead?

Oh, of course, you know it would come to that, BGP. It always does!

I'm glad it's all the fault of single mothers - I thought the world had stopped spinning on its axis for a moment there.

Sorry kitty, whilst I couldn't care less what you think is manly or attractive, using a phrase like "men-women" is clearly derogatory. I don't see anyone here calling your dh and men like him Neanderthals, which might be an equivalent sort of terminology.

By kittywise on Wed 23-Jul-08 16:14:35

ha ha, dp has just had a quick look through this thread, he had a good laugh then has now wandered off with an electric screwdriver in one hand and a bag of screws in the other whilst muttering something about 'gays'.

i'm a bit confused - can you explain how changing a nappy/washing a dish et al mean that a man wishes to have sex with other men? I'm not quite sure that I understand it. I don't wash many dishes - am I a lesbian?

Or was your dp just grunting a load of offensive crap?

Well I wasn't going to say anything, but I am totally unsurprised at your dh making homophobic comments. It is very sad when men feel that doing anything they associate with women is so emasculating that it must make the man into a homosexual. In bringing up our son and daughter my dh and I will make sure that they are both able to cook, clean, manage money, do basic DIY, care for children and all of the other life skills that they will need whether they live alone, with others, or as a family. To do otherwise is to do them both a disservice.

I have never been proud about changing nappies. It is a chore. I do however think that parenting should be celebrated. My dh was great at looking after me following my c-sections. I would personally have hated my mother to have had that sort of hands on role at that point in my life, and think it more important that my dh bonded with his babies (my mother is already bonded to me after all). My father spent no time with us as children and I think he lost out on a lot. I am very glad that most men in my generation have different ideas, and that things like paternal leave and flexible working normalise this and make it legitimate for men to be able to develop caring relationships with their children.

But being an involved dad does not mean being a 'woman-man' or 'unmanly' in the traditional sense of the word. My DH plays rugby, surfs, is very practical, can mend the car, likes to go out with his mates etc. The two things are not mutually exclusive. He is also supportive and empatheic, but is also hugely protective,sexual and very attractive.

ha ha, dp has just had a quick look through this thread, he had a good laugh then has now wandered off with an electric screwdriver in one hand and a bag of screws in the other whilst muttering something about 'gays'.
Just reporting, don't shoot the messenger.

nooka, if you read my posts carefully you will find that I haven't put down or criticize anybody's set up all I have done is state my views on the women-men.
I think these man are unmanly and unattractive, that is my opinion.

rofl at 'acting all empathetic'

we want cruel harsh men who kiss us masterfully and rip our bodices, leaving us swooning and quivering with desire, yes?

this has probably already been said. but i'm going to say it anyways.
i dont think paternity leave is essential. certainly not two entire weeks worth of it. what is essential is that someone be there to help out for a few weeks after the birth. a grandmother or an aunt, or a friend of the mother would be far more useful in many instances than the biological father. i was gutted when my dm had to return to work when dd was 8 days old. it would have been far far better for us if she could have had the so called 'paternity leave' whereas dh would have used it to get the car mot'd or as another friends dh did, sort oout the garden, etc etc.

changing nappies is not something to be ashamed of. it issomething to be proud of. motherhood is something to be proud of. society needs to recognise that.

Kittywise you seem to be making a huge amount of sweeping justifications for your own set up. I'm glad that whatever you have works so well for you. It's just a pity that you feel the need to do down any other set up. My dh and I parent equally, but differently. We both have careers, and we look to play to our strengths. But dh is naturally a much more "hands on dad than I am". That doesn't make him any less a man, just different from the fathers that you know. I know plenty of fathers who are very like dh, so I think that men come in as many varieties as women. Some enjoy being at home, and for others it drives the around the bend. I am of the latter persuasion. If I could have given dh my newborns I think we would have both been happier (actually he wasn't that keen on babies either, so we got a lovely nanny instead once I stopped breast-feeding). But saying that different styles of fatherhood make you barf and referring to "man-woman" is fairly offensive. Do you also have problems with "women-men" I wonder? Personally I find too much cooing over babies and general "mumsiness" annoying full stop, whether it's a man or a woman is completely irrelevant. But then I don't judge men on whether they are attractive. I have a man of my own, he is both empathetic and enjoys his children, and I think he is sex on a stick (I don't actually want anyone else to think that way about him!)

It was me that said that and I've already said a couple of times it was badly phrased! I was referring the the extreme of the 'new man' concept. Fortunatley a lot of good came out of the 'movement' and men do take more of an active role. Certainly the DP's of a lot of mnetters.

<I'll try to bite my tongue at the fact that your answer simply reinforces my comment>

Anyway, humour me I'm curious how "men who try to act like being women" act like. They wear skirts maybe? Or stay at home and bake fairy-cakes? Or is simple involvement in childcare sufficient to make them too feminine for you?

cestlavie, don't worry even though I'm a traditional sahm I am capable f holding many thoughts in my head, including ideas that seem diametrically opposed

For me that fact is that men like who try to act like being women and act all empathetic are very unattractive and not at all manly.

Oh that was me that said that. It was badly phrased OK. I just like my men to act like men. It's great that some take an equal role in childcare although it is a relatively recent development. Not all men have caught up with it or want to.

Ah kittywise and abouteve, surprisingly it's not impossible for a guy to enjoy your 'motherly' pursuits changing, bathing, cooking, comforting and caring for babies whilst also enjoying 'fatherly' pursuits like, hmmm, getting drunk, playing golf, shootin bears and slapping fellow men on the back (please feel free to insert your own slightly archaic versions of what fatherly pursuits are). I know it can be tricky to hold two potentially conflicting thoughts in your head simultaneously but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

In the answer to the original post, in my experience it largely comes down to the fact that generally the guy earns more than the woman. DW earns a pretty reasonable salary but unfortunately/ fortunately for me, I earn some way more - I like to think because of my incredible (although difficult to spot) talent and ability, but far more likely because (a) I stumbled into a well paid industry and (b) men continue to generally be paid more than women. This is typically the case for most of my friends. If I was to take paternity leave then we would lose proportionately more of the household income. I'd also add that I suspect my work would be far less receptive to that prospect than DW's have been.

i just feel for you both with that attitude!

but really your happy the way you are, so its up to you if want to think things like
"I also hate seeing fathers trying to act like mothers, it makes me want to throw up, sorry"

that makes me feel sad for you.
oh well each to their own and all that

LSB, not smug, just pointing why you have no reason to feel sorry for me.

abouteve, I know what you mean about the new man with the newborn, about as manly as a bowl of tapioca and about as attractive too!!

LSB you seem to feel sorry for anyone that doesn't think the same way as yourself. There is really no need.

its a wise person thats never too smug, you never know when your circumstances may change.

lovelysongbird ha ha don't feel sorry for me my dear, throw your ideas elsewhere, where they might be needed!!!
I have a fab life; lots of lovely kids,supportive family, super supportive dp, enough money etc etc.
I never have to worry about the finances, house repairs, all that stuff. I just don't ever have that stress, how marvelous is that!
I also have my own income btw.
Dp pays for all house stuff, food, kids clothing etc.

Not much to feel sorry for!

abouteve, poor you.

lovelysongbird, yawn. Thought I'd already explained it was the concept of new man going too far that turned my stomach. The 'We're pregnant' announcements etc. Anyway moving on.

Social housing should not favour single parents. All families needing housing should be equal. However, the fact that single parents are more likely to be on full HB in expensive private housing does fast track them into less expensive (for the state) social housing.

Rebelmum - yes, of course they did. But when the cost of an average house is more than ten times average incomes, what is the point in trying to save? In most areas of the UK today a working class income will never allow you to own a home of your own. You would be saving for an impossible dream.

Didn't people used to live with their families until they could save for a house? Didn't they get engaged and save before they married and then had children? Isn't that people had more personal responsibility back then rather than expect the state to pick up the bill?

kitty and about eve

feel very sorry for you really tbh.

to me a real man is someone who loves their kids and takes an equal role in their lives.

how do you think men that live alone cope?

There are two problems that combine to make it difficult for men to be providers - the demise of manufacturing and the rise of low-wage,insecure call centre type work is one of them.

The other is the way the welfare system works. If you are a man who is working, and earning less than, say, 14k a year that may not be enough to pay rent or a mortgage on a place that is suitable for children. The points system for social housing means that single mothers are given preference so what can the father do to provide for his family? It is no wonder so many are demoralised.

In the 1950s housing was more affordable and I don't think the social housing system was based on the points system that is there today. I know a man who has joint custody of his dc and has been told he will have to wait at least two years before being able to access social housing. He can't afford to rent or buy a two bedroom flat. In the 1950s average wages like his would have supported a family.

Is that the point?

Ok so he's saying that the high cost of living means that men can have children but leave the state to provide for them? What would happen before pre-1950's when men couldn't afford to provide for their families? Did they just leave them to starve? Has the welfare state inadvertantly caused fatherless children?

Also would like to add that one of my friends has brought his DD up alone since the sad loss of her mum when she was 5. He's done a great job.

I knew I would have to explain that comment.. I'm all for fathers being hands on. I think its great that they do their fair share of all that's involved with childcare. Also as I've done it single handed since day one 14 years ago.

Anyway I remember a few years ago the dawn of 'new man' when fathers were just working out what that meant. I was in a soft play area and this 'new man' came in with his PFB. He was talking in a very mumsy voice and cocoo-ing over all the babies. He then struck up a converstation with a more traditional dad. The trad dad was so embarrassed by him. Sorry but it was hilarious to see, saw a few comedy sketches on TV that mirrored this scenario perfectly.

Apologies for any offence, just reading this thread brought it back.

I think you covered it Www, lol.

Agree with Fircone - this thread has gone on an odd tangent. The article is about how it is often now impossible for young men to build an independent life of their own - because they can't have access to affordable housing and because capitalism has "restructured around a low-wage, flexible labour market."

I really agree with this article and think it is a real shame that the problems facing young families are so seldom acknowledged.

"Debates about fatherhood in recent years have all failed to recognise the structural changes within which men and women are forced to make choices and take decisions. Politicians of all parties go along with tabloid explanations of 'deadbeat dads'. "

I don't know why I dignified that with a response tbh, sorry for rising to it!

How do fathers act like mothers then abouteve?

so abouteve, would it make you 'throw up' to see my dh:

dropping and collecting both children(one of them not biologically his)
feeding them
bathing them
changing nappies when they were smaller
cleaning
cooking
shopping
putting washing on ??????

Because to me that (among other things) makes him a highly desirable partner.

If that;s what you meant by 'act like mothers' by which I assume you mean the caring and looking after of children?

What does "acting like mothers" involve?

Why can't both parents just "act like parents"?

it makes you want to throw up?? jeez, pity any poor child who lost his mother. you would throw up if their father cared for them??

I also hate seeing fathers trying to act like mothers, it makes me want to throw up, sorry.

I also didn't understand what he was saying.

The fact that fathers did not provide for their families pre 1950's is untrue. Looking back to my (working class)grandmothers days. 7 children, no welfare, no employment for women. It had to be the mans role to provide for them or they would have starved. I believe my grandfather was away in the army but money would have been sent.

Since the 1950's women did enter the workforce and continue to work in the main once married and with children because the tax system changed. In the 1950's men received a 'mans wage' and paid little or no tax to provide for his family. Also expectations have been steadily rising, e.g car each, holidays abroad, owning ones home and this lifestyle is not sustainable on one average wage.

What a load of crap! What is a real man? Men have to go out and earn the bread and keep the little lady at home with the kids, Yeah, whatever! What's wrong with men saying at home to look after the children fgs, sahd ftw!

be better employed mowing the lawn if you ask me ..

I had a quick read of the article and think it's a bit feeble. A sort of jog trot through times in history with a load of generalisations. Men and women behave differently in different economic circumstances. Is that the sum total of his argument?

"Has this man been paid to write this really very unclear article?"

I know. He should get back in the kitchen where he clearly belongs.

I agree with WWW's earlier comments about our economy and our buying into consumerism to keep the economy going. DH and I have always shared a mix of work and housework/childcare. I gave up paid work to SAH when he got a job which is incompatible for me to work around as it is unpredictable shifts (I used to work at weekends and evenings when he was off).However, I study 16 hrs a week and volunteer one day so he often has the kids on his own while I am at college, which I think is great for him and them. I have been in hospital a few times and could relax as DH is quite capable/used to running the house/kids (yes some things maybe done differently but they were fine). He does some of the housework.

Fircone summed it up quite cncisely earlier in the thread:

"I think the article is saying that many men CAN'T be the providers and what is more, women don't want them to be.

A low-paid man cannot afford a home. A single mother GETS a home. Therefore it is in her economic interest to keep the father out of the picture. And it continues: no-one wants to lose benefits so unless your partner is earning above a certain level it's just not worth having one.

The article wasn't about middle-class argy-bargy about who is working harder/changing more nappies/quality time blah blah blah but the fact that increasingly a certain strata of society has lost its role because of economic considerations."

The thread went rather off piste from the point of the article, probably because it is so badly written.

I agree nkf.

I have actually never known a man with a newborn who really truly wants to to spend a lot of time with it.

This example is typical of my experience of man and new borns.

An old friend, very pc, hands on blah blah, has three week old baby and is not enjoying fatherhood. It irritates him that the baby cries and isn't 'interactive'. He is surprised by his reaction but now tries to spend time away from the home. He would not have wanted to have paternity leave, his idea of hell, would much rather be at work for some peace and quiet.

Is he debating an issue with roles? or is he arguing that because the cost of living is high men are at work more so can't take on responsibility at home, and the ones who don't work well what then? What change is he proposing? What is the problem? Is he saying that when men were at war women managed? Well they had no men to get in the way and make a mess and cook tea for did they?

Thanks bramshott

Has this man been paid to write this really very unclear article? I don't understand the argument. What exactly is his point? Can anyone sum it up in one sentence?

I think women do best at caring for new mothers. If the government is handing out money, I'd rather have a doula than paternity leave for my husband.

This thread has been really interesting. The original article is bollocks, really, "neither nowt nor sommat" as some older family members might say!

Like others, I am a bit and very about the suggestion that "men should be men" and shouldn't look after women in the postnatal period etc etc. That's just a plain weird way to think, IMO. Do what you gotta do to get through, and in our house it means DP took paternity leave + annual leave so we had a month together while I got over a section and he took the opportunity to really bond with DS. Which was great for us all, as now I am back in FT work he stays home to care for the baby. Not that we've had any financial alternative to that, but it's a bit upsetting to know there are people like kitty who think it's just wrong wrong wrong that he does the nappy-changing, bib-washing, toy-tidying stuff while I - shock horror - earn the money and take care of the nitty gritty.

Of course my way of doing everything is the best way and as a complete control freak I'd prefer to be doing it all myself but we have no choice.

I don't see how modern culture has put any objects in the way of fatherhood for DP - it's forced him into a more active role than any previous generation has enjoyed.

If you get onto the subject of whether it's emotionally easy for a man to stay home while someone else earns the bread, that's a different kettle of fish ...

That's great news OI - I saw your other thread when he was applying. Hope he really enjoys it and it rekindles his love for the classroom.

DH got the job as a TA. So all being well I'm back to full- time work. Anyone got any testosterone going space

Professor G - I'm NHS - DH is a doctor - works for a private company.

And yes bottersnike, I agree that different couples will haev different set ups to reflect their different strengths - there is no 'one size fits all' solution.

What do you do laidback? I'm guessing NHS?

I agree that couples should play to their strengths, as long as there are no fixed expectations of what those strengths are.
Before dh and I had children, we assumed that once little feet came along, I would stay at home, cook, clean, etc, and dh would work full-time, and put up shelves at the weekend.
When we had children, we discovered, after several months of neither of us being very happy, that actually our strengths were reversed. I now work full-time, and dh is at home ( he has left his "career" and is now a writer ). He does the school run, cooking, nappy changing during the day, and we are both so much happier.
Cultural expectations can be very difficult to live up to sometimes!

our set up.. ( excuse typos ) .

Totally agree with WWW.

I feel fortunate to live with a man who has put his head above the parapet to request that he works less hours so that he can do more of the childcare and things around the house.

We now work 2 days each, look after the children whilst the other is working and have one day at home together. We share equally the domestic chores, but we both get to pursue careers that we love. We both enjoy being parents too and out set up gives us equal chance to explore that.

I have never seen DH as 'unmanly'. I see him as a strong man that can embrace the part of himself that wants to be an involved father (and also earn a decent wage to contibute to our family income).

Best of all we never argue about who is most tired, who works the hardest (inside or outside of the home), etc etc. as we have a fairly similar experience.

I recognise that not every family can set themselves up like this (practically or from an economic perspective), but I am proud that we have managed to do it .

No! Just thinking I haven't seen her for a while

xenia? Why, are you ladies looking for a brawl then?

Joining the Fio Greek chorus here.

agree with fio, blimey,
Where IS Xenia?

aye, I would love a lie down <sigh>

Wot fio said.

kittywise, I hope you do not mind me saying this

but you are quite mad dear. Please have a lie down x

If that suits you OrmIrain

We might have assumed (erroneously, obv) that when you said 'paternity leave is a nonsense' that you thought a father's role is to continue working without a break, thus severely limiting his contact with a newborn.

And that if he 'acts like he is a woman' around said newborn he would 'make you want to barf'.

Does that mean that I'm acting like a man in going out to work? Just hang on a minute whilst I grow some b*llocks and some stubble Oh...and DH is having an interview today for a job that will enable him to taek on the school run and after school care for our 3DCs and I'm going back to full-time work (I hope).

I think we'll manage just fine.

I might have liked to have a big community / extended family of women around to look after me when dd was born, but, in their absence, I absolutely loved having DH around.
I like to think he quite liked being around us too and didn't find it too 'unnatural' .

backgammon dp has always had as little or as much contact as he's wanted with all the newborns. Where did you get the idea that he didn't? I never said that.

Surely it has to be a choice made by indivduals/couples and they should have that choice, in whether they ant paternity leave etc.

Kitty- I understand where you are coming from, after having DD4 4 weeks ago I was on my own after 2 days, doing the school run etc but I can see that not everyone is able to do that or would want to for that matter!

There have been tines when I have worked ad DH has been at home with the DC's and vice versa so I can see both sides, we currently run our own business so DH is away Mon-Fri working while I am at home, I see myself as fortunate to be able to be at home as I know some don't have that choice

Thanks kitty - I obviously do lead a charmed life, because in my world mothers don't push out fathers when a new baby joins the family. They share the experience - it's what good, equal partnerships are about.

Oh lordy, now we've entered the time on the thread when pissed off posters start making things up.
Quite happy to talk THGP but only in reference to things actually written and not about things that are clearly fanciful.

backgammon if that is one of the saddest things you've heard for a long time then you lead a charmed life

it is not natural for a man to look after a woman post natally, that is the role of other women

what the fuck are you on about ?

it is not natural for a man to support his partner, the partner who has just given birth to his child ?

it is not natural for a man to want to spend time with his partner and new born ? to look after them ?

you are strange

It's not natural to shove your husband away from his new baby, IMVHO. It's really, really selfish.

But your experience is not everyone else's. What if both partners are fantastic at paying bills and choosing new cars - and dreadful at ensuring everyone has clean socks and plates to eat from?

who gets to choose the car, and who gets to do the dishes?

"It is not natural for a man to look after a woman post- natally, that is the role of other woman, preferably family."

What a sad thing to say. Never mind that very many women don't have a close support network/family anyway - now you want to tar those with dependable husbands as unnatural.

That's one of the saddest things I've heard for a long time.

Then you find who does what best, you're not going to be equally good at everything, doesn't work that way ime.

What - the conclusion that you have chosen to take on the lion'#'s share of the childcare and housework - leaving your husband as the administrator for his own family?

excuse typos

What if you both have the same strengths, Kittywise? Who gets stuck with the drudgery then?

TBGP, you shouldn't jump to completely unfounded conclusions. I think you must be reading a different thread

What I think is there is too much sharing of jobs. IMO different sexes are better at different jobs.
I am not saying that women should all stay at home and men work, but I do think that it is much better if each half of the partnership plays to their own strengths.

In my house dp is self employed, does all the finances, pays for the mortgage , cars, running of the house, food. He deals with all that nasty, unpleasant and tedious aspect of running a house and family. What I do is look after the house, cook, clean and deal with the vast majority of childrearing.
Dp does read the little ones a story at night and is around to 'tuck' the bigger ones in.
He does not, clean, cook, wash up, change nappies, dress children,bath children, brush teeth, take to dr's , iron, do washing etc.

We discussed our roles before we had kids and of course they have altered over the years is of course they should.

Mrsbadger, yes I think experoence has mae things easier as far as looking after a newborn is concerened, although i must say after my firstborn ( a cs0 I discharged mysellf from hospital 2 days later and didn't expect to be looked after, although i did have support I in no way thought of myself as needing anything but emotional support.

Dp being self employed did not take anytime 'off' after any of the 6 children and neither did it occur to me that he should.

It is not natural for a man to look after a woman post- natally, that is the role of other woman, preferably family.

PG, thanks for you supporting comment.

PMSL @ Kittywise - look, it's not our fault you do all the shitwork in your house - just because you prefer not to allow your husband an equal role in raising your offspring doesn't mean we all should chose to be that selfish.

Doesn't that poor man get any time with his kids? Or do you sweep him of to 'The Study' with the vacuum's hose attachment?

you prefer to do it all alone - why would anyone need that? Why would anyone be so afraid of giving up control that she would rather deny her husband bonding time with his children than accept that he may both a) do things differently and b) (and this may be a hard one to consider if you are dead set on the 'traditional set up) do things better than you?

I think the article is saying that many men CAN'T be the providers and what is more, women don't want them to be.

A low-paid man cannot afford a home. A single mother GETS a home. Therefore it is in her economic interest to keep the father out of the picture. And it continues: no-one wants to lose benefits so unless your partner is earning above a certain level it's just not worth having one.

The article wasn't about middle-class argy-bargy about who is working harder/changing more nappies/quality time blah blah blah but the fact that increasingly a certain strata of society has lost its role because of economic considerations.

And where is Xenia? Has she left?

newname - Kitty isn't a troll. You only need to do a search to see that. Just because she doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that you should make that suggestion.

Now, Kitty, are you seriously suggesting that cooking is the woman's role? How does a single man feed himself then?

And why exactly shouldn't one change a nappy after work? I've done it lots of times. Is it only ok because I'm a woman? WTF?

Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint. But the fact that I do leave early twice a week means she can work late, go for a drink/gym if she likes afterwards and I can do the same on 'her' nights if I want to. That's why I find these threads frustrating because at the cost of 2 hours work on my side, both of our lives have become so much easier. Until then I was rushing like a maniac to get back a couple of times a week just to see DS for 10 minutes before bedtime, and she was having to leave meetings early every day to pick him up.

my dh went back to work after 10 days this time i think and i had had my 3rd section, had a severely disabled 8 yr old and a 6 yr old. I didnt really thank him but the bills needed to get paid

He had to take a few days off though when I was bleeding heavily because I was had been doing too much too soon

My dh takes both children to school and nursery every morning and collects them both every night, which means he has to stop people mid sentence if they try to talk to him past 5pm. And we take it in turns to take time off for sports days/sick children/other stuff.

NB Kittywise I know you are not a troll
but you do have a lot of children so perhaps have more practice at recovering from birth than the vast majority of the population....

yes and what are women's/men's strengths?

Kitty- I love to see my dh hugging, cuddling, kissing our dc's or them sitting on his knee while he reads them a story etc. These are all things my FIL never did with his kids, are you saying these are not MANLY things to do?

so many of working mum friends are oh so slightly envious that my dh put in a flexible working request, so he now finishes at 3pm, with an earlier start. suits us very well, as i then go to work at 5pm. AND because i work evenings i am therefore very tired most of the time, dh gets dd up on weekends, so i lie in. i am very lucky.

on the other hand, dh's colleagues think he is utterly bonkers. they would rather do as much overtime as possible and NOT go home to their families.

We do a have a lot of friends (not in City type jobs) who both work part-time and share childcare.

And my DH is a SAHD.

And I must confess I have occasionally envied those of my colleagues who don't habitually rush home and grapple with supper/bath/nappies/whatever.

Fair do's.

I guess your profession has a fairly macho culture. I'm surrounded by geeky Beta males. I think a lot of my friends and colleagues are anxious not to repeat the mistakes of their fathers.

well Kitty, I think you are the exception- most women could not look after the family on ther own 3 days after giving birth. I have had (relatively) easy births but was still exhausted, in extreme pain from stitches etc and anaemic from losing a lot of blood. Up to a week after giving birth I was dizzy and faint when standing and in pain when sitting/walking. It's archaic to say that women should be capable of looking after the whole family in this state or worse when their partner can easily be there to help out.

Kitty - you surely must be a troll?

'why would a woman need that?'
what, to eat and shower?

DaDaDa, you are right, that was a generalisation, okay.

If even just a few dads had ever said to me, It's so sad, I never see my DCs, I wish I could leave work at 6 p.m. like you do, then I would probably also generalise from that they represented a lot of men who felt like that. But honestly, I can't think when I've ever heard a man I work with say that.

What I have heard is men whose children are grown up and gone lamenting that they didn't spend more time with them when they were little. And grandfathers who (like my own dad) spend more time with their grandchildren than they did with their children.

Kitty - you didn't answer my question.

When you say that the different sexes should play to their strengths do you mean that women's strengths lie in doing domestic chores and men's in having a career?

meant 3 days

mrsbadger, why would a woman need that? A couple of days maybe. £ days after my 5th child was born I was looking after the entire family on my own. You just get on with it fgs.

It is a crap article though.

thisismynewname, it is sadly very clear you wouldn't know what respect was if it came up and slapped you

So I chose to change nappies despite being highly educated and skilled so what? Unlike you though it seems I have nothing to prove, hey ho, there you go.

"it speaks volumes about how much men want to be involved" is a generalisation in my book.

Across these Home Front threads there seems to be a distrust from many that work/life balance is an issue where men are concerned. Quite apart from the fact that the vast majority of fathers I know do want to contribute to childcare, it misses the point that for families where both parents work, increased flexibility for fathers is necessary to make their partners continued career development possible. Instead it plays as 'whingeing Dads want to have their cake and eat it'.

I suspect SixSpot's right and that a lot of dads stay at work for longer than absolutely necessary if it's calmer and quieter at work than with screaming newborns and chaos at home. Wish I'd had that option

Hey, I'm not making generalisations - I'm giving some real life examples. Completely different.

Hey Kitty, I bet you think there's something 'a bit funny' about men who take 'too much interest' in their kids too.

...and in everyone else piles with generalisations. Sixspot, I don't see how your example is any different to a woman having flexible working hours. I leave at 5 (wow, what a perk) twice a week so my DW can work late, and vice versa. She wouldn't be able to do her job in 4 days if not. It's the way we can both make our working lives work - is that making a Big Deal?

Balance. You see, my work/life balance is so buggered that I can't even spell any more!

A more valid point might be that the long hours / long commute culture in this country is bad news for everyone's work/life balanace, and particularly so for parents.

The other side of the coin is that occasionally you get a dad making a Big Deal out of his involvement, like one partner at my old firm who trumpeted the fact that no-one was allowed to arrange a meeting with him before 10 a.m. because he always took his daughter to school. Whereas, as one of my female colleagues at that firm pointed out, you would never get away with doing that if you were a woman - you would be told in no uncertain terms to get your childcare sorted out!

Trus sixspot I have had similar discussions with hospital consultants and managers

I have always worked in law firms in London and have lost count of the times I have heard men admitting, or even boasting, that they like to stay late at work so that they miss the evening bath-time/bed-time shenanigans.

Okay, maybe they are only saying this because it is macho and they think it is expected of them. But nonetheless I think it speaks volumes about how much men want to be involved.

I also didn't get past the first bit of the article, but I think MEN prevent themselves from being good fathers sometimes. They need to put their heads above the bloody parapet and ask for

a) part time working
b) term time only working
c) flexible working
d) hours that enable them to be around more

women have been doing this for YEARS to enable them to actually see their children. And guess what? Women suffer economically for it, in terms of sacrificing earning ability and careers. And then women often STILL do the bulk of the drudgery evne when they work ft oth.

Paternity leave is important to me and to dh. I have to have a elective c section this time round and I will need dh to be sole carer for ds while I am in hospital, we have no one else to look after him.
We are lucky however to get full pay from dh's employer for 2 weeks and whole days off paid for attending hospital appointments with me. Not all men get the Government pay for paternity.

agree that unpaid drudgery shouldn't be a woman#s role.

I think materialism to some extent prevents us all from being the best parents we could be <gulp>. Because we want things, some of them quite basic, like a decent place to live and these things cost money and to earn money we have to work and then when we do have things we want bigger and better things and we rarely stop and say what are we actually doing this all for, we just blindly carry on working in the pursuit of money to buy us stuff. I know I'm not being very articulate here and I'm not suggesting we all have a choice about whether to work or not, most of us don't at all, but just that the economy (which relies on people buying stuff, amongst other things) does rely on us all buying into this consumerist crap and going out there to earn money to buy stuff we don't need in order to keep the economy going and to give us some notion of happiness and we end up with no time. Which is what we need most of all if we want to be with our children and give them enough attention.

Ha ha!

My dh is perfectly happy - he works full-time and is the main 'breadwinner' but he loves coming home to the kids and doing stuff with them. He always changed nappies etc - if we are both there why should it alway be me?!

Kitty - with all due respect, just because you're not capable of anything more challenging than changing a nappy doesn't meant that all women are equally as useless.

paternity leave is not nonsense and my DH was gutted that he only had 2 weeks, as i was

how on earth is it a woman's role to change nappies? Seriously - how does having ovaries make this so?

i don't believe changing nappies is the point of my existence

men's strengths are hunting mammoths with spears, catching fish etc
women's strengths are tending the fire and picking berries

yes?

I can see some of his points. But I don't understand how men 'today' have it any harder than years ago? Is he saying men have it harder because more women are working now - eh? Are women taking their bread winning income? I don't really understand that one.
My Dad was always the bread winner, working all hours god sent and we lived in a council house, this is the 70s and 80s. How is that any different to working class of today? I am now living in a ha house working parttime and my husband earns just under the so called average wage. Not sure how things are/have changed.
I tell you one thing that has changed - access to loans, hp, credit cards, buy now pay later, store cards. That is what has changed over the years!

Kitty you think men and women should "play to their strengths"

What do you mean by that? Your post seems to insinuate than mens strengths lie in earning lots of money and women's in changing nappies and cooking. That's surely not what you meant is it?

<praying I have the wrong end of the stick>

I don't think unpaid drudgery is the women's role, Kittywise.

I was unhappy when I was working outside the home and coming home to changing nappies and cooking.

Most people who spend every waking moment doing the shitwork for other people are unhappy about it.

Why is it only sad if they don't have testicles?

'paternity leave is a nonsense'

bollocks

unless you pay a mat nurse / doula etc or have a handy (and co-operative) relative, a woman who's just given birth needs the support of her partner for those two weeks, if only to make sure she actually eats and has a chance to shower.

I mean I think it's a nonsense that in order to be good fathers nowadays man are supposed to act like women.
Personally I prefer a more 'traditional' set up where the roles of parenting are quite delineated.

I'm not talking about any sort of abusive patriarchal system but one where men and women play to their strengths because they are different.

Men I know who are expected to be both breadwinners and then assume the woman's role when they get home, eg, changing nappies cooking etc are pretty unhappy.

That's what I think anyway

paternity leave is a nonsense

these "obstacles" are what working women face, but they seem to just get on with it

full time job out of the home

full time job in the home

crap pay and no thanks

what a great deal women have

i don't understand what he is saying either

it has NO point, that i can discern

Yes I was confused by that Bramshott

It is a muddleheaded article. Couldn't be bothered after the first few paras.

I don't understand what he is saying!

I'm afraid I gave up on the article when he said "The model of the man as breadwinner is a modern invention and only became the norm in the 1950s" and then in the next paragraph "The Right wants to rewind 200 years and reimpose the patriarchal roles of mothers and fathers".

Ufnuwwww; what??; my brain hurts!

Paternity no longer means fatherhood

doesnt it mean that it isnt necessarily the biological father that is doing the father role?

either way i agree, its hardly a new concept

Kittywise, what on earth do you mean?

Hmm I'm not really sure of the argument of that piece.

"[in the past] There were plenty of biological fathers who lived without families. This was not about men's moral failings, but a structural problem. Since the 1950s historic changes in the economy and in gender relations have returned us to this age. Paternity no longer means fatherhood."

I don't understand what this is saying. Or exactly what it means. Are we saying that a father-provided-for family is a recent invention, and then men in the past were equally feckless? What is the structural problem of the past being referred to?

"[in more recent times] As men's incomes stagnated or fell, women took on a double shift of paid work and unpaid domestic labour."

Yes - funny how men find themselves with LESS work so they just piss their time away at home while women look after the children AND work. I have a friend whose estranged partner has just been made redundant - but instead of taking on more childcare he is just smoking weed and pissing around on his playstation.

"Labour, despite the best efforts of feminism, is silent and evasive about both masculinity and fatherhood."

HMMMMMMMMMMM not QUITE sure what Labour should do to resolve the issue...

The trouble with these type of discussions is that there are no PRACTICAL solutions. I don't see why 'Labour' is expected to come up with some, if the article writer can't think of any...

Sometimes, despite my best intentions, I wonder whether men, at their very core, basically default to being useless depressed fecks while women just get on with things.

I do think we're set up to expect too much sometimes.
We see we have it better than our grandparents in so many other areas (health, life expectancy, NHS, technology etc) we reckon that we should have it better in all areas then get a shock when we don't.

Actually I can't ABIDE a man-woman who acts like he is a woman as far a kids go, makes me want to barf. A man is a man and shouldn't try and be a woman.

i agree with auchwitz

What is a real father though?? That changes all the time,
actually being there and paying for the off- spring, those are 2 basics, the rest is down to social trends.

Oh those poor, poor men. Paternity pay at only £117 a week! Surely maternity pay is much much higher than that ..... oh no wait. It's the same.

The baby boomers are responsible for this notion that you can spawn as many replicas as you wish and expect to fully support them while having just the one parent in a low status job, with all children having a room of their own, a car each for you and the missus, meat every day, eating out once a week, and a foreign holiday every year. it was never this way before, and the affluent yuppies in the 80s have set up a false expectation of a high standard of living.

The financial penalty has always been high. It is high for men and it is even higher for women.

Another article debating the obstacles to fathers being equally involved in parenting.