However we also need to recognise the fact that the majority of new parents can't afford to have a year off so perhaps if the gov. really wants us to do this it needs to be better renumerated in some way

Ceedub, what are you going to feed your baby on after 6 months? Formula? They can't drink cows milk until they one year old.

I completely agree that the current arrangements place way too much emphasis on the mother being the sole caregiver. Breastfeeding means I will have to stay at home for 6 months when I give birth early next year, and more importantly, I want to spend that time getting to know my baby and caring for him or her. But my partner also wants to have that experience (not the breastfeeding, but the caring!) and financially and professionally, I can't take more than 6 months off. But he'll only get 2 weeks off after the birth, and our baby will need some form of daily childcare once I go back to work because I can't transfer the remaining 6 months to him.

While the government promised to introduce a long-overdue measure to allow women like me to transfer my extra maternity leave to my partner, they've apparently just delayed its implementation again - to 2010!

I run a workplace with 6 employees, so I know all about red tape and the burden on employers - especially small ones - but it's not as though this is really going to cause that much hassle. Getting the necessary evidence and completing the paperwork for male employees will be much the same as for women, and frankly, when you manage people, you just have to deal with the fact they have personal lives as well as professional ones and will occasionally need a bit of flexibility. Assuming otherwise is setting yourself up for some big problems when people inevitably fall ill/have accidents/leave suddenly etc.

I earn more than my partner, so the economic arguments that used to operate in favour of this discrimination no longer stack up (not that they ever did), and I know he is frustrated that he doesn't have the same parenting rights as me.

Nicola Brewer is absolutely right that the current arrangements perpetuate unacceptable discrimination against women by allowing employers to (illegally, I know, but it's hard to counter something that's never openly said) discriminate against women of child-bearing age while denying fathers the opportunity to take a substantive caring role in their child's earliest months. It's archaic and it really needs to end.

Great, 12 months sabbatical. Now lets see if the men can have the same like in those more civilized countries. Then the employers wouldn't be forced to chose between super able me who is likely to be absent for 12 months whilst the littl'n gestates and after its dropped, and that big load of emotinal baggage who spends most of his time at work. Who sald equality wasn't a bad thing ? Let's give it to them gals.
And so you see, sharing roles is a good thing, but in this Country unfortunately the Laws and Childcare Institutions are still operating in the Victorian era when men worked down pit and women looked after kids. Just as women are searching for equality in the work place, men want equality in childcare..........no more men taking their lives and the children with them now PLEASE....God forbid that a man should be emotional !!!!!!

I agree with prettybird that men are often invisible in discussions about child rearing. We (as a society) often talk about 'parents' when we actually mean 'mothers'. This doesn't do any of us any favours, men or women.

For example most books about parenting babies have a chapter on staying at home or going back to work which assumes this is a decision that only women have to make, not a question that both parents should think about. When I had my daughter plenty of people asked me what I was going to do about work - no one asked my partner.

I have been thinking about this issue a lot more.

I reckon that if you are prepared to put your job before your kids/caring responsibilities then you will experience relatively few barriers, regardless of your sex. If not then you are likely to take a financial penalty.

This is something that really bugs dh - the qhole emphasis on mothers as being the primary carers. As it happens, he is the one that once ds started at nursery, took the primary role as he was in a position to take a package and work form home.

He thinks (and I agree) that current policies and attitudes positively discourage fathers from getting involved.

He really hates the presumption that "dads don't want to get involved" and that he is supposed ot be unusual in caring and getting involved in bringing up his own son. He gets really fed up with snide comments being made about "men not helping".

On a practical note, he points out that we keep on complaining about the lack of represenation of ethnic minorities on our school's parent council (= approx a PTA), given that the school is over 60% ethnic minorities - yet fail to notice that 50% of the pareents are not represented - as h e is the only male involved. It's like men are invisible in child rearing - and women push them out or make facetious comments when they do try ot get involved.

I personally think that maternity leave of a year shouldn't be maternity leave but parental leave - available to be taken by either parent. Same goes for any rights to felxible working. That way, employers can't disicrminiate against women - as they can't be sure that a man might be the one asking for the time off.

Even the in paractice, for some time to come, it owldmostly be woemn who wwold take it - at least it wuold begin to break down the barriers to men being more fully invilved.

I'm very fortunate in that my employers have family-friendly policies (that don't discriminate on the type of carer's leave required), allow me to work flexibly and implement the salary sacrifice childcare vouchers scheme. It makes a big difference to my life.

Contrast with dh's employer (a big fat cat conglomerate) which makes it very difficult for him to take leave, refused to let him work in the least flexibly (and our request was for a very tiny adjustment) and will not consider the vouchers scheme. This costs us a great deal of extra faff, and of course about £1000 pa.

It also means that my employer has to be more flexible than it otherwise would be if dh's company were more reasonable.

Ergo, dh is looking for work elsewhere.

I can't help thinking that if it had been me working at dh's company they would have paid more attention. I really feel he was discriminated against because he was a father and therefore shouldn't "need" to be flexible.

To respond to geordie's point about people taking the piss about leave - where i work ATM each employee can have 5 days paid dependent's leave a year. This can be for a child or adult they are caring for. Any leave taken over and above this is unpaid. at my last job I did have someone who actually took the piss in the way she says above - so I made her take any further time off as unpaid as she'd used up her entitlement. Hey presto no more sick kids! Quite an easy way round this problem.

thanks Will for answering my Q

The debate/consultation will continue throughout the entire Summer I believe.

Today was only the launch event.

I'm with wilfself on this, why were we only given 1 hours warning to post questions.
Some of us were working you know!

I see the it girls point but I think long debates around 'the point' are not actually helpful.
Whilst changing the name of the mothers and toddlers and extending the legislation for Fathers is an issue, I think it's distracting from the main point(s) that people just don't want to deal with

some of those are
poor availability of flexible working
poor quality and availability of part-time jobs
for some careers you effectively hit a wall once you have dcs (whether part-time or not)
poor availability/cost and quality of childcare

I hope this debate starts to recognise the fact that working parents are usually doing just that during the day and is prepared to deal with issues faced by those who don't hav the option of using taxpayers money to pay their nanny by calling her a secretary because she once answered the phone or else it will be pointless

But I wonder if there could be more flexible working than we think there is? If there was a sea change in the way people see the workplace?
10 years ago it was considered to be impossible to work flexibly in my dept, but now what with broadband and so on, many people are doing it.
OK some jobs need you to be actually present, but quite a lot don't, or at least, not all the time, in reality.

Its an interesting debate.

I agree that those without children may want to work more flexibly, but unless they have other responsibilities such as caring for elderly parents, then they don't in fact need to.

At our work anyone can submit a request to work flexibly regardless of their circumstances. Now in theory this is good, because it should reduce resentment for working parents etc. etc., but in reality there is only so much flexible working to go round so someone has to be disappointed. Whilst I agree that when I was single, early 30s and childless it would have been bloody lovely to have an extra day to go to the gym, get my hair done and have a long lie, as a working mum, selfish or not, justified or not, I feel that if there is a limited amount of flexible working then I have more right to request a 4 day week, with the resultant drop in pay, than someone without responsibilities.

Lol

I literally dashed to Waterloo to find that my train had been delayed so I managed to hop on it and get myself there only 10 minutes late

Lovely to meet you too Shiny and to confirm that you do, indeed, wear pink shoes. (Although not shiny.)
Did you make your meeting afterwards?

I think discrimination against mothers is very widespread and hidden because of the current legislation so increasing parental rights would just extend the discrimination to anyone vaguely mentioning that they feel broody, woman or man. I think flexible working should be for everyone, before having a child I would have loved to work four days a week.

I found some of the comments today from Dads very thought-provoking and a little saddening.

MNHQ thank you for extending the invitation to us all- I am very glad I attended. Katisha and Justine, was lovely to meet you

just want to say justine, you are my idol.

gorgeous house, painting with kids, and top business woman to boot.

BBC news!

This is why the ultimate answer has to be a cultural revolution in how all people, but probably especially men, view the workplace.

Nicola Brewer did talk about this today, pointing out that we are in the 21st century, yet the workplace is stuck somewhere in the 1950s model of 9-5, Mon-Fri.

I am expected to behave as if I do not have a child at work, and when I leave early as part of my agreed hours receive the (albeit jokey) taunt of 'slacker' or 'lucky you'.

I usually retort with 'you could also have half the week off...and work for half your salary'. I don't think people usually realise that part-timers are actually worse off; they don't actually get time off as they are looking after their children, and they only get half the money.

I also completely agree that everyone should be allowed to work flexible hours (and flexible work places eg from home) where possible. In my experience this makes people work harder for their company as they feel their needs are also being met.

I am extremely lucky that I got pretty much the hours I asked for PT and also a day working from home to make nursery pickup/drop offs easier.

However I still had to sit at work pumping breastmilk in the disabled loo for three months as financially I had to go back before I had dropped the day feeds.

Extending Mother's pay to a full year would definitely help breastfeeding rates in my opinion and given that this is currently a major campaign (and saves money long term in health care) it should be a viable option.

Did anyone hear the phone in on this topic on Radio 2 today on Jeremy Vine show? Practically every woman calling in had experienced some kind of discrimination at work once they had a baby. Mums are currently portrayed in the media as "having it all" with maternity/parental rights etc but what seems to get forgotten is that flexible working is not something employers have to say "yes" to, it depends on their business needs. As a small business, my employer could not accommodate my request for reduced hours so I had to resign from a professional job, not ideal for them or me. I can see both sides but parents ultimately get the bum deal - why do people think women are not capable of anything once they give birth?!!

God there was a woman I used to work with who had her parents living in the next street to her. Both were retired and looked after her ds whenever she asked. There wasnt a week went by that she wasnt late/off sick/off looking after her sick child/had doctors/dentist/optician/school visit.

This woman was a good friend and regulary used to boast that she had spent the day in bed/shopping whatever at the expense of our employer.

Obviously I know this an extreme rarity but she was an absolute nightmare for her colleagues and boss. She had warning after warning but realistically there was nothing anyone could do - it didnthalf make for a bad atmosphere in the office.

"Allowing all employees to have flexible working hours would mean that extended family - grannies/grandpa's/aunts/uncles would have the flexibility to care for a child as and when required. "

While I have never met anybody who took a day off to look after a child because they fancied a day off, (how would that work?) I do think geordieminx makes a very, very good point.

In a culture where to progress you have to be tied to your desk all week, any parent who wants to work part-time/flexibly finds that their career grinds to a halt. If all employees were allowed to make a business case for working flexible hours, then perhaps parents wouldn't be sidelined?

geordieminx see my post before yours. I do agree that people must not take the piss if they have flexible working.
Unfortunately some people seem to have an enormous sense of entitlement that they should never have to work school holidays and bank holidays and expect the child-free to cover those days. That causes a lot of resentment.

I'm really gutted that I didnt manage to get on this thread earlier.

Whilst I think flexible working hours for both mothers and fathers is a great thing I think that it is opening the door to a whole host of discrimination issues.

If an employer can offer flexible hours to parents then I firmly believe that they should be offered to all employees regardless of whether they have children or not.

In todays society there is enough workplace bitchiness/back stabbing and bullying without introducing another reason for bad feeling. Before I had ds there were people in my office that used having children as an excuse to come and go as they pleased, some legimate reasons and other times it was used as a "get out of jail free" card to be thrown onto the table whenever the person (usually woman) fancied a day off. It would cause anamosity (sp) and general bad feeling amongst colleagues doing the same job for the same pay (regardless of sex) if one was permitted to work "flexibly".

Lets also remember that just because you dont "have" child, it doesnt mean that you arent at times responsible for the care of one (or more). Allowing all employees to have flexible working hours would mean that extended family - grannies/grandpa's/aunts/uncles would have the flexibility to care for a child as and when required.

The other problem would come at interview stage, there would be many employers that would discriminate against parents because they would have to offer flexible working which could affect their business. Obviously this is not only morally wrong but againsy the proposed law but it does and would happen.

Dont cause a further divide between parents and non-parents, yes fathers have a right to flexible workable hours, yes the laws regarding paternity leave should be brought in line with scandernavian countries (and other european), but those without children shouldnt be penalised.

I think it would be helpful to see beyond parents and carers to a culture of work where flexibility was seen as good and normal, for everyone as far as poss. (I know - squadrons of flying pigs...)

When I started flexible working 8 years ago my dept was not at all keen. Now lots of people do it, including single men. The dept has stopped pretending that operational needs meant that people HAD to be in the office.

(It also means that parents with flexible arrangements aren't so resented.)

I think we need employers to be honest about whether a job can be done flexibly, and be open minded about it rather than just saying it has to be the old 9-5.

For me, dd's father is an essential part of caring for her. I earn 4 x what he does so he has gone part time to look after her 2 days a week.
If I could have transferred my SMP to be S PATERNITY P, he could have had 9 months off with our daughter. Purely because the 'wrong' parent is the breadwinner, we could not do this.
Also for me it doesn't matter how long SMP is extended for - 6 months, 9 months, 2 years.... Makes no odds if you can't get past that first 6 week barrier. If just the first 3 or 6 months payments could be improved it would certainly help with bfing rates too!
<<vivid memories of frantic pumping in service stations, on planes, clients' loos.... >>

Sorry Wilfself I disagree with your post of 15:58.
We need more fathers take extended paternity or parental leave & work flexibly so that they can share the childcare either with flexble working or when their child is ill.
Otherwise this will always be seen as a problem with employing women, "they will just get pregnant & go maternity leave", "always be calling in because their child is sick", etc.
If there are the same disadvantages in employing men, then industry will have to adapt and because an even larger proportion of the current and potential workforce will want and request this and they will have to improve the work/life balance they can offer their employees in order to retain and recruit them

Employers perceive that it is economically advantageous to lose skilled members of the workforce rather than to give them part time positions.

Unless this can be changed eg unless we have big skills shortages (as we had in nursing for several years) the skills of women will continue to go to waste and the economic power of women will not advance from its current position.

I would ask the question:
Why does wasting the skills of women who have children not result in skills shortages? If it did then I think the situation would correct itself. Are our skills gaps plugged by immigration, is this the reason why we can waste the skills of women?

During the nursing shortage women could pick and choose the hours they wanted to work and there was a great deal of flexibility on offer from employers.

Hi Custardo,

A start might be extending the period of fully paid (or mostly paid) mat leave; more subsidies of childcare; some kind of scheme to encourage senior professional and managerial parents (mothers?) to work flexibly to demonstrate how it can be done (and better guidance on this)

OK it's not all about rights as such, but improving the outcomes for working and non-working mothers needs still to be worked on since that is where the real balance of inequality is.

dont kill me - as i am only asking

but am not right sure what more rights for women you are talking about.

I am in brain drain quagmire.

Reasonably highly paid career job did not accept my flexible working request after mat leave.

I knew they would say no because although they are large company they are also male dominated and only interested in people who can work full time with no distractions.

If they had accepted my request I know that as a part-timer I would never have been promoted or been able to exceed expectations for decent salary increases at review time.

Now I am looking for part time work locally, and it's all the classic minimum wage type stuff that is available.

It's still a myth that women can have it all. They can have a career and have children, of course, but normally will need to work full time to progress and a lot of women don't want to put their children in childcare 10 hours a day 5 days a week.

The solution can only be to educate and encourage employers to see the value of keeping on qualified experienced women, rather than chucking them out the door as soon as they reproduce. If the employers see no value in having women working part-time in decent jobs with prospects, we will never get anywhere.

Agree totally with Wilfsell.

I feel that the government is trying to distract from the key issue, by rolling out existing legislation to fathers, rather than pushing out the boundaries to actually try and set some workable legislation around flexible working, rather than the wishy washy definition at the minute.

I feel that some of what they are doing in terms of equalising for men and woman is merely window dressing as a much smaller percentage of men are ever going to take up these rights .

Quite.

Gonna say it again though cos it obv didn't get into the main debate...

While I share the notion that improving flexible working rights for fathers, and improving their status when they are carers is in the long term crucial for improving the lives of children, let's not get too distracted by this...

The reality is that women are in the main carers and while this is the case, policy needs to focus on improving their rights at work, while pregnant and on maternity leave; and employers need to focus on ways of keeping women in work, supporting them while they are parents and in particular stopping the costly brain-drain of skilled and educated women into low-paid and low-status jobs just because they are also carers.

dh gets lots of grief (in a male industry, haulage) for having invoked flexible working laws etc, and pemergency parental leave- it is felt that its my role, but just occasionally (last time was day of my finals) it just isnt feasible for me

Whilst I am not working then it's different of course

Actually, work tried to change dh's shift to one that clashed with mine and dh explained it wouldn't work so they pointed out that it was my role as Mother to change- even though it wasn't possible (I was scheduled to meet 20 children in a timetabled weekly slot)

Perhaps but it's perfectly ok to put the breaks on yourself temporarily, if I didn't I would never see my child. I'd rather see my child.

i think there needs to be equity of career climbing

its quite easy for me to take time off - but it is seen as flakey

whereas super testicles over there can climb with no worries.

be nice to have 6 weeks hol then you can split care for the school hols ..

Please don't! My original post obviously misled some people and I didn't want to misrepresent Nicola's points, hence my latest post to clarify.

i think after the first year shared parental roles are more helpful. But then you don't get any more additional time off.

I have no intention of relinquishing this role.

my husband and i have through the years and through necessity alternated the primary childcarer role.

If it was as acceptable for him to take leave because the school needs words at 8.30 am - meaning he wouldn't get to work until 11.30

that would be v. helpful.

generally speaking the mother is the main carer when the baby is new born, men can't give birth or breast feed..nature hasn't caught up with womens rights

oh my post was badly worded, i did know that- i was explsining the way in our family that the roles are shared in a non-conventional manner, that also illustrates how he has benefitted from rights etc (i meant to add how he used flexible work laws for sn kids to make his job feaasible post dx but forgot)

sorry <<slinks off with tail between legs for rubbishly worded post >>

Just to clarify - Nicola Brewer isn't saying that fathers are 'optional seasoning', she's saying that the present rights of mothers and fathers can appear to support the idea that they are ie they force mothers into main carer role and fathers into main breadwinner role.

It wasn't what she said.

do you agree with EHRC chief executive Nicola Brewer that fathers are 'optional seasoning' in children's lives, while mums are the main carers

not here he's not!

Dh and I share everything bar the breastfeeding! Right down to whom is primary carer- it's been me for years, when he goes to uni I will work and then he'll have that responsibility as I did when I was studying.

Children wont die without either parent but a Dad helps imo, and even if that's not possible the more actively involved loving people having input into their lives the better. I suppose it doesn't really amtter whether that's mum, dad, or Great Aunt fan- but in most famillies Dad is the obvious choice, whether the parents are together or not.

Summing up.

Duncan - one of the things that comes out of this today is that you can't meet the needs of women without looking at men. It annoyed me three years ago when they introduced these leave entitlements - I said that this would increase pregnancy discrimination and I was right. You can't just look at the needs of women without looking at what men are doing. You need to deal with both together

Justine - Duncan has summed up well. WE need to change the view that children are genetically programmed to see the mother as the primary carer we are.

Nicola - This has to be about choice, not compulsion. Secondly this is an issue about a culture change and we need to talk about prizes -the rewards of being with your children - as well as the penalties. Lastly, this issue is not just one for mothers and fathers but for other carers, grandparents and so on. There is something here about modern workplaces and the changes that are needed for a whole range of people.

Thank you all very much for taking part. This consultation will be running for the next few months and you can take part in discussions here at mumsnet or at Dad Info

Yes - and jobs at ALL LEVELS.

Working families spokesperson says that one of the big problems is that you can't ask for flexible working until you have done the job for 26 weeks. We need more jobs that are advertised as available part time and that people returning to work can go into.

Someone from a children and family centre is saying that children's centres are an ideal platform to consult with parents. Fathers are very active in the running of our centres. Job centre plus are working with childrens centres for pathway to employment events, particularly focussing on workable solutions to getting into employment.

The thing is, it's all very well talking about women's rights when pregnant, but when push comes to shove you have to be on good terms with your employer.

So my rights say I don't have to tell them I'm pregnant, but if I don't then they feel it makes their life very difficult and sours the relationship.

Rights only work when backed up with structures that mean the employer is helped and compensated for giving us our rights.

Someone from the recruitment and employment federation is saying we have made great strides in the last few years. There is a strong business case for flexible working, you do want to retain employees because of the cost of replacing them.
One of the themes today is choice and this is important. We need to offer opportunities to work flexibly but not compulsion.
For single parents one of the biggest issues is school holidays because there is no one to share care with. Many parents use temporary work to get back in the workplace and this can work during school term times - flexible working also needs to be seen in terms of temporary work or term time work rather than part time.

Nicola Brewer is being asked about pregnancy discrimination and the numbers of women who are sacked when they say that they are pregnant.

She is saying that she was surprised at the high number of calls to the EHRC helpline were about pregnancy related discrimination including women being sacked for being pregnant. One thing that is needed is greater awareness and rights to people know what their rights are and employers know the law. In terms of some of the worst cases we still need to raise awareness that this is still a huge issue for a lot of women

The Chair is asking Justine whether women come to Mumsnet for advice for the sort of problems we might have thought we had got over years ago.

She is replying that as a small employer Mumsnet has to deal with pregnancy, particularly because you aren't sure if people are coming back, but the way to get people to come back is to offer them flexibility.

also - the movement of lone parents from IS - JSA isn't necessarily a bad thing if there is affordable quality childcare that lets the PWC fulfill their potential, but so many of the jobs created to move lone parents off of the unemployment register are soul destroying, minimum wage drudge employment - and then you get to come home and look after your child all on your own. whoopee! i also feel that there is encouragement for single parents to find work, including financial incentive for a while, but you're pretty much on your own after the first few months and left to get on with it.

Justine is saying that there are often comments on Mumsnet boards about the problem faced by people who are supposed to be working part time but are still doing a full time job, so having to catch up in evenings and weekends.

Sarah Kerry from Stockport Borough Council is talking about flexible working at a local council level. STarting work part-time is very difficult, particularly when there is the expectation that you will do a full time job in part time hours. Many people end up working evenings, weekends and so on to keep up with the work. The authority means well and has pockets of good practice, allows me to attend sports days and pick them up from school but we need to make sure that the expectations aren't too much to catch up late at night.

Also when you look at the work life balance you need to look at how hard it is to come back to work and leave your child for the first time. People need to be aware that when your child starts nursery they are likely to get ill and you are likely to have to have time off. If employers were more aware that this was likely to happen this would help.

There is a network of local authority employers in my area. All authorities have strong policies, but because they are such large organisations it can be difficult to manage whether good practice is actually happening. In some places good policies may be ignored.

Sorry. I should have said "many men" or "most men".

I wouldn't care if I looked wussy. My partner was depressed and wanted to go back to work but wasn't ready to leave our child with a stranger. I'd have liked the opportunity to take over for the last 3 months of her maternity leave; my masculinity could have withstood that for the good of my family...

the point about the parent with primary care sacrificing their career is doubly important for lone parents who choose to work full time because we tend to go into jobs where there is flexibility = lower wages, less responsibility, less career satisfaction and development because we do have to leave at the drop of a hat for a sick child.

fully agree about the out of school care of older children - schools should be community centres, open until early evening with structured play - open in the holidays to give working parents affordable (free!) childcare and peace of mind. there are NO facilities for my 13 year old DD at all during school holidays in glasgow.

Men won't demand parental leave. I'm convinced of that. They'll think it makes them look wussy.

Families need fathers spokesperson is welcoming this debate. Flexible working is often seen as something for women. There is an issue of men not being involved in the caring professions and a suspicion of men who do work in early years.
The other problem is that different Government departments are doing different things, there is no clear message about parenting.

WHAT ABOUT WHEN WOMEN EARN MORE???

You're pretty buggered on SMP if you earn 50k and have a mortgage based on that.

Oh I am glad that the MP is prioritising discussion of her work environment over general points that help all women. If she wants to compare her struggles as a mother in Pariament to other full time professional working mums she is unlikely to find many who will sympathise with her lot.

Parliament does not sit for 3.5 months a year and rarely sits on a Friday. She has most mornings off and children are welcome on the premisis so she can play with them while waiting to vote (which is about the only mandatory call on her time). Also her salary means she can afford high quality childcare.

Duncan Fisher is saying that leadership from Government has an important role. We need a Government to say that it is good for children to spend time with their mums and dads when they are small and we want a society that does that.
At the moment the language is 52 weeks leave for women, 2 weeks for men and there isn't much room to negotiate.
Until men start demanding en masse we won't get huge change, but if we just sit and wait for that to happen we won't get started.

"Paternity leave needs to be properly paid. Men will just not take it if it is at the SMP rate."

I would have, although our salaries are roughly equivalent so it wouldn't have made any real difference to our income.

Agree with titchy, also include parental leave in that as you cannot leave a 12 year old alone all day & every day while you are at work during the holidays. TBH wouldn't like to do it to a 16 year old either for the whole of the summer holidays

Paternity leave needs to be properly paid. Men will just not take it if it is at the SMP rate.

Of course, we'd really like to see mat leave fully funded to replace salary also but until we pay Scandinavian tax levels, I doubt that will happen

(I would though)

Maria Miller MP is now speaking. She says that there are aspects of parliament which are very family friendly - but that is when parliament is not sitting(!) - when MPs can work flexibly and focus on results rather than presenteeism.

She is talking about the importance of flexible and transferable parental leave, flexible working and childcare to help avoid downtrading of jobs.

The Chair is asking her if men are higher earnings it is going to be difficult for them to take leave even if it is transferable.

Maria Miller - it is one step at a time, and what we need to do is get this issue on teh agenda. It shouldn't always be the assumption that the woman is going to play the role of carer in these early years. But until the issue of equal pay is addressed this is always going to be a problem.

Littlemydancing - I'm having to do exactly the same - I have an interview for a well paid job next week. But it's full time, so if I do get offered it I'm going to have to negotiate flexi or part time hours which I don't feel comfortable about. But it's the only way I'm going to get a job that matches my skills.

I don't see overnight stay for fathers as a priority. Not while there is a shortage of midwives.

Mother need private rooms with en-suite facilities before fathers should stay overnight.

I agree wholeheartedly that parental leave in the first 12 months should be able to be split between parents. Employers have to come to expect to give flexibility to parents rather than just Mothers. Eventually, slowly, this could further equality in the workplace and in the home.

A lot of fathers would love to be more actively involved in childcare but employers are conditioned to expect demands for flexible working from women. The legislation has to lead the cultural change; it's not going to happen overnight.

Can the debate (generally that is, not just this thread) please include parents of older children too, who do not have the right (as yet) to request flexi-working as their children are over 6, but they still need picking up at 3.30 or whatever. And after-school childcare is not that easy to comy by.

The Lone parent families spokesperson says that most lone parents want to work if they can find work that fits around their caring responsibilities but that the sanctions based approach will not work.

£10,000 to change the name of the mother and toddler group to parent, carer and toddler group . What a pointless waste of a substantial amount of money that could have been used to actually do something useful to involve fathers.

I agree that it is appaling that most hospitals do not have overnight facilties for the father. It excludes them from the start and leaves the mother unsupported at the most important time.

I'd like to know (picking up on something PoohBah said and on my own situation) what can be done about addressing the problems women have getting new jobs or changing jobs.

I was made redundant when DS was born - managed to get a one year contract when he was one, but haven't worked since because very few parttime or flexible working jobs are advertised.

The only way I got the one year contract was by applying for a full time role and then negotiating part time after they'd offered me the job, which was something they weren't that happy about - they felt ambushed.

Now I'm trying to get a job while potentially being pregnant, and I have to lie on two fronts - once by NOT declaring that I'm pregnant and once by NOT declaring that I want part time hours.

If I don't lie, I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of even getting an interview.

Early years services unwelcoming to fathers ? In what sense ?

And there was a very long thread about men staying overnight on postnatal wards. And women really, really didn't want them staying unless everyone was in a private room (and I totally agree)

Excuse typos - trying to get everything down so spelling is going a bit!

Oh please don't let this debate turn into a 'poor fathers' one.

Of course men are excluded by stupid cultural attitudes.

But almost ALL of the available data on caring (whether for young children or ageing parents or other sick family) suggests it is women who bear the brunt of the responsibility, at great detriment to their working life, their financial independence, their pension and their health.

I quite agree that making work more flexible so that men can do more caring is an important goal, which will ultimately help women.

But equally let's not lose sight of the reality: this IS a gendered issue.

A spokesperson for one parent families is saying she is disapointed at the assumption that children grow up in couple families and that the focus has been on early years. In less than four months 110,000 lone parents will be taken off income support and put onto job seekers allowance when they will be expected to find work. Lone parents will find it difficult to find jobs to combine with parenting. They face conflicting expectations - to work, but also to be involved parents.

A father at the meeting has just said that it will be difficult to involve fathers so long as early years services are unwelcoming to men.

Justine is replying - the problem is to change the cultural expectation of who is going to do what after children are born. the thing we need to do is get more men in the environment so that we get past a tipping point where men are seen as involved.

Nicola Brewer is saying that this issue is as much about culture change as legislative change.

Another father said he raised £10,000 to change the name of the mother and toddler group to parent, carer and toddler group. when his son was born he asked whether there were overnight facilities for fathers, he was told that there were none because fathers were seen as a security threat.

A father at the meeting has just said that it will be difficult to involve fathers so long as early years services are unwelcoming to men.

Justine is replying - the problem is to change the cultural expectation of who is going to do what after children are born. the thing we need to do is get more men in the environment so that we get past a tipping point where men are seen as involved.

Nicola Brewer is saying that this issue is as much about culture change as legislative change.

Another father said he raised £10,000 to change the name of the mother and toddler group to parent, carer and toddler group. when his son was born he asked whether there were overnight facilities for fathers, he was told that there were none because fathers were seen as a security threat.

What would be very hepful to me is if there wer an independent, accessible and free point of advice about my rights at work. I never know what I am entitled too and what I am not and don't trust my work HR to advise in my best interests but short of paying a lawyer I just do not know where to turn.

Yes but Maryann, male non-parent carers are in a small minority: the majority of carers in the 45-65 age bracket are still women...

I work in a professional job in a very flexible organisation (at least for my type of job). However, flexibility in most professional jobs is a mixed blessing: one one hand people have the authority and seniority to manage their workload; on the other hand however problems arise when the workload is always bigger than the hours paid for, whether or not you do them flexibly.

What happens then is the parents of children work flexibly because the children don't work to an employers' timetable when they're sick etc.. But the career-building parts of the job (in other words all those things people working non-flexibly do in their sparetime) then get squeezed out.

Parents have no choice but to lose out.

In many professional jobs, this is the case whether or not you move your 'office' or 'task-focused' hours around: there are never enough to get the job done fully.

What hope is there for parents, women in particular, using their expensively won qualifications is this kind of expectation continues to shape working practices?

It's no wonder women undersell themselves and take lower paid, lower power jobs when they have kids: because these are the kinds of jobs that CAN be done flexibly...

Really? What kind of care work?

A spokesperson from Carers UK is saying that it is important to broaden this debate to talk about other carers as well as parents. There are more men trying to combine full time work with caring responsibilities (not parents), while women are more likely to give up work.

Carers and employers often don't know about the right to request flexible working.

She's spot on. What is difficult is that many women want to do a lot of the caring. They want those months with the small babies. I'm not convinced that men do. Maybe I'm cynical but I remember in my old field of work, men used to volunteer to work Boxing Day because they preferred the office to the inlaws and the family walks etc.

cross-posted I'm cross at mn now

ok I've read the Times article - geraldine you have grossly misrepresented what she said. There is a veritable universe of difference between saying that men are an optional extra and saying that all too often men are seen as an optional extra or that policies have the affect of relegating them to an optional extra. I fear your op will skew this thread towards a load of people responding to something that was in fact the opposite of what she said.

Hatwoman - Nicola Brewer was talking about what often happens, not saying that men were an optional extra.

Thisis the link to the EHRC press release (with quotes from Mumsnet and Dad Info) which shows what she did say

What did she say?

I am sitting her absolutely gobsmacked. did Nicola Brewer really say that? as head of the EHRC? surely it was in context....

we cannot have equality anywhere and especially not in the workplace until we have equality in the home. until fathers have and are accepted as having a 50 per cent role in upbringing of children we will not have equality and I am utterly appalled and very if Nicola Brewer did say that. I hope to goodness she said it as a reflection of an undesirable reality, not as a statement of some immutable fact.

If a county council can worm their way out of their legal duty not to discriminate against a pregant woman, what lengths will small businesses go to ensure that they aren't paying out for paternity/maternity leave? I think the government are well meaning but really they need to devise ways of actually ensuring equality. Discrimination is very difficult to fight if you aren't sure if you are being discriminated against. I didn't know who the other candidate was until much later and aren't in a union and don't have the money to fight the case.

I think that maternity pay packages rarely reflect the fact that many women are now the main earner in a partnership and taking significant amounts of unpaid leave is not an economically viable option.

I think that legislation for a more flexible approach to maternity/paternity leave would be better with opitions for paid leave to be shared between couples and for either a shorter period at full pay/higher rate or a longer period at a lower rate. I know that the aim is that by the end of parliament women will be enttled to a year of paid leave at SMP but realistically this would be a massive financial struggle for many families where the woman is the main earner.
I think it would be better to say that in the year following a child's birth a couple (where both parents have parental responsibility) are entitled to a total of 12 months leave from work and in the time that they choose to take off they can access £x amount in total in maternity/paternity benefits. This should be related to the total income of a family with some sort of ceiling above which employers could top up and should be spread over the term that a couple wish to take leave over but with the proviso that you cannot claim more in any one month that you would have earned as net pay had you been at work. This system would be more complicated to administer but would be fairer and would recognise the role of fathers much more.

With respect to flexible working I think that any employee, regardless of reason, should be able to request to work flexibly. Employers should be required to state in writing why they are refusing any such request ie make a business case against it and state what alternatives they could offer the employee. I think that where possible companies should be encouraged to enable their employees to work from home (surely this is likely to have environmental benefits too, less commuting etc?). I also think that all employees should have access to a childcare voucher scheme.

My DH is significantly more than 'optional seasoning' and he would feel insulted be thought of in this manner! .

He plays an active role in the childcare, upbringing and decision making in our child's life, and has taken advantage of fleixible working for parents, as much as I have in order for our family life to be equal.

With his new job, we are both working 3.5 days per week, and each have 1.5 days as main carer, with the weekends off together as a family.

We deliberately worked our lives to be so and would not want it any other way. It was important to both of us that DH was not just a breadwinner, but took proper responsibility as a parent.

More than the money side of it, and childcare side of it. He is a fantastic parent in ways I am not, just as I am good in areas he is not. DD would lose so much if the 'optional seasoning' was no longer there. It would be a recipe with a crucial part of the mix missing.

I think she's just perpetuated the myth that breastfeeding stops at 6 months when actually babies can't drink cows milk until they are one. Should we all give our babies formula just so we can go back to work?????

I'm fed up with the whole equality thing. I went for a job when I was pregnant but didn't get it as I was told that there was a better, stronger candidate. Recently I found out that the candidate they employed didn't even meet the essential criteria. You have to lodge a claim within 3 months so no recourse for me. Sunsequently I have had to turn down a job because I can't get the right childcare so I am a stay at home mum despite having a degree and 10+ experience. I don't blame the employers they struggle to fill posts when people are on maternity leave.

I wish women wouldn't be given the impression that we can have it all when clearly in my case I can't.

I also think that its not so much about paternity leave, but about men making decisions to take leave. My husband saved all his leave so that he had 3 weeks completly off work (2 weeks paternity leave, then annual leave), and then 2 days a week off after that for the next 5 weeks. Yet, in this country it seems that most men can't be bothered to ask to do this.

My Finnish colleagues, on the other hand, expect to be off work for some time for the birth of their child, and are very upfront about their need to take time off/finish meetings on time to fulfill childcare needs.

Finland and Sweden also have excellent staterun childcare, the cost of which is subsidised and capped per family, which makes decisions about working much easier for families

You can read the press release for the launch of home front with quotes from Nicola Brewer, Duncan Fisher from Dad Info and Justine here

The launch meeting is about to start. I will be feeding in your comments and trying to type in responses. Come and join us!

I have to say in any context, the use of the word "rights" in relation to flexible working is misleading and makes people believe that their employers have to do things that they don't. There just aren't any rights as far as I am aware.

The day to day stuff is fine as I do part-time & my husband can start early & finish early generally. However we have more problems with covering the holidays - I have nightmares every summer.
It would help us if we were entitled to unpaid leave (don't expect anyone else to have to pay for it) to cover holidays periods.

Oh fair enough if she was commenting that they get treated that way, rather than saying it was right.

DP and I both work for 'global' companies. Whilst the flexibility is there (I work part-time, flexible hours mostly from home with little travel), it was always an unwitten and unspoken given from the start, that the progression of the career of whichever one of us who chose to be the main carer (and it's me), would be ground to a halt.

And it has, but as we have no family help, the level of flexibility is priceless.

The more I think about it, the more startled I am that someone high up in "Equality and Human Rights" would make that kind of judgement about a person solely on the basis of their gender

To be fair Nicola Brewer didn't say that fathers should be 'optional seasoning', but that this was all too often the impact of leave policies which gave long periods of leave for mothers and only two weeks for fathers. She was calling for men to have better rights to paid leave.

There is an article in The Times about it
here

(I'm helping co-ordinate an on-line consultation for Mumsnet and Dad Info about these issues, to declare my interest!)

Awful way to talk about fathers.

In our family, parenting is something that is done equally, and if there was to be any reduction in hours worked outside the home, we'd want to both do that. Both parents should have absolutely equal rights to work flexibly, and I dislike the concept that fathering is an optional seasoning.

In some families, for whatever reason, the father is the main carer and the mother more of an "optional seasoning" - the same rights should be available to both parents when it comes to flexible working. I imagine for the majority of families, it would still be the mother who took this up, but it should be available to either equally.

It's the launch of the Equality and Human Rights Commission 'Working Better' consultation today. We're glad to say a fair few Mumsnetters are coming along to the event at lunchtime, but for those of you who can't make it, please post your comments and questions here and we'll feed them through to the panel.

We can't guarantee all your questions will be answered, but we want to ensure your views are taken into account.

For example, do you agree with EHRC chief executive Nicola Brewer that fathers are 'optional seasoning' in children's lives, while mums are the main carers? If families could afford for dads to take time off for childcare, would you choose this? Do you want parents to have the same legal rights to work flexibly?

Obviously, feel free to start new posts if there are particular issues around work and family life that you want to discuss.

And please don't forget to complete the Home Front survey when you've got a spare five minutes.