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Home ed

General queries

20 replies

branflake81 · 20/11/2007 16:22

Hello to all those who HE

I have some questions about HE and I know that when I ask them they are going to come across at criticisms. They are not - I am just genuinely interested so please don't shoot me down in flames if I unwittingly offend you:

Often home educators mention their lack of structure in comparison to the school day - there is no 9-3, no set time to learn geography etc - instead it's all done through activities. So instead of sitting down and working from a book, kids go to museums and bake cakes etc.

Fine. I agree that there is lots to be learned through museums and baking etc. BUT - I fail to see how these are enough. School educated kids can do all these things AND MORE (I for one spent a large part of my childhood bakiing and in museums despite going to school) and part of me wonders if HE kids aren't missing out.

Some subjects are dry and dull but learning them is what makes you a rounded individual. The danger with this child-led approach is surely that the child does not do what he or she hates and ends up somehow lacking in skills in those areas?

I hated mathmatical and scientific subjects at school but worked very hard at them because - well, I had to. And that in itself is one of life's lessons - that sometimes you can't just go to a museum, you have to sit down and do something that's thoroughly boring and turns you off.

Also - I can see how home educating in the primary years might be OK but I know there is no way I would be equipped to teach some GCSE and A Level subjects - how do you manage when the complexity of a subject exceeds your own abilities?

Like I said - these AREN'T criticisms - in fact people who HE should be applauded for taking such an active role in their child's life. I am just interested in a few points and would be intrigued to see what your replies are.

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SugarBird · 20/11/2007 19:20

Doesn't come across as criticism . Ds2 (now 13) has covered all the curriculum areas and more (he's into philosophy these days) just by following his interests since we started home edding when he was 9.
He reads loads and prefers to study one subject in a big chunk, then move on to something else after a couple of weeks but over the months we steer him a bit (structured autonomy!) so that there's not a huge imbalance overall.
All the reading means his general knowledge is pretty good .
He does enjoy cooking (including baking), and there are plenty of science experiments you can do in the kitchen. He's also grown his own fruit and veggies in the garden (photosynthesis, nutrition...)
As for maths, he passed his GCSE last year and was mostly self-taught, with a bit of help from us. This year he's doing biology and physics GCSEs and won't let us interfere unless he's really stuck.
Languages are tricky if you don't speak them - we've done a bit together but he has had some tutoring in Spanish as I'm not up to it. We've even done a couple of years of Latin using the Cambridge classics books.
He does music and dance, plays a lot of sport, goes to theatre, galleries, exhibitions etc. And yes, sometimes he has to do things he doesn't like so much, such as writing essays...
We've got to know other HE families along the way and we've all got strengths in different subjects so he sometimes studies with friends. He could return to school if he wants he's not in the slightest bit interested. However ds1 is horrified by the very idea of HE so it's definitely horses for courses!

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SugarBird · 20/11/2007 20:34

Just realised forgot to say that with autonomous ed ds can also see how all the subjects link together. He's just told me that maths is the only truly universal language and that it underpins every subject. Still trying to work out whether I agree.

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terramum · 21/11/2007 09:25

Firstly I would say that no two HEers are the same so it's very hard to generalise about what they do or don't do...but certainly talking to other HErs it's fair to say that some are actually quite structured & some aren't..mostly it depends on the child themselves & how they best learn. HE is never as simple as it's portrayed - most people who hear about "home education" for the first time assume the child is sat at home on their own with only their parent for company - the whole "socialisation" argument ....and IMO it's no more of a reality than your portrayal of just going out to museums and baking. Yes some families (my own included) follow an autonomous way of learning, whereby the learning is child-led and most of the learning is done simply by living and responding to the child's questions & interests...but that doesn't have to mean no workbooks or structure - sometimes the child does actually want to do this! As the learning is often more relevant to the child & their circumstances I would argue that they aren't missing out at all - if anything they get more opportunities than school educated children simply because they have more flexibility in the way they learn

I doubt very much that HE children avoid doing everything they really hate - what child likes to tidy their room, help with chores, accompany their parents on visits, shopping trips etc....life is full of having to do things we hate in which we learn to complete tasks even if we don't want to do them. In terms of 'school subjects' though, I would say though that something that is traditionally dull in school might well be less dull in a HE setting, simply because it's not seen as a chore to do, but a real choice...it can also be made more relevant to the child as an individual. Lessons in schools are designed to be "broad & balanced" because they have to be taught to a whole class of pupils & so it's is much harder to make everything interesting to everyone.

When you say you would be ok at primary but not secondary you are thinking that a child has to be 'taught' everything by a teacher figure? Children are learning every second of the day, you can't stop them - that's how they gain new skils, develop the ones they have - that's how the human brain works! Just because the child turns 11 doesn't mean they aren't just as capable of developing & learning themselves. As for GCSEs & A levels - they aren't compulsory you know ...but if HE children want to do them then they can do them using correspondence courses or through local colleges, exam centres. Some parents even study alongside them. My Mum did her French A level at a local college at the same time I did mine at school - she had a much nicer course than mine (she learnt about the different regions of France while I was trying to learn religious literature off by heart & got a better grade than I did ). Just because you HE doesn't mean you don't have a lot of resources available to you. HE quite often means the student has more choice in these qualifications because they are free to choose whichever ones they want - no having to pick xy & z because those are the only available choices in group a because of timetabling & staffing issues at the school

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ShrinkingViolet · 21/11/2007 11:36

also, other than reading, writing and basic arithmetic, there's not an awful lot you "have" to know - it dawned on me last month that it won't matter to DD2 when she goes to secondary school if she's learned anything about eg the Tudors, or the Egyptians, as by finding out about the Vikings (her current interest) and presenting that information in a meaningful way, she's learned much more useful skills for what will be needed at secondary/in life.
So just because my scientific knowledge is patchy, doesn't mean I couldn't shepherd her through A level physics say (if she decides not to go back to school), as she would be the one doing the learning.
I see my role as a HE parent to be "teaching" the basics, and then to be sourcing appropriate resources for the child's interests.

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Mehetabel · 21/11/2007 13:57

You said "Some subjects are dry and dull but learning them is what makes you a rounded individual. The danger with this child-led approach is surely that the child does not do what he or she hates and ends up somehow lacking in skills in those areas?"

This hasn't been my experience. What has happened with my children is that they have put off doing things they hate until they feel equipped to deal with it, and then tackled it then, always assuming that it is something that they really have needed to know.

My son (now 22) did not like writing, so he didn't do it until it became necessary (when he had a term's try out at Secondary school) whereupon he picked it up within a couple of weeks and was writing in a legible cursive style. His writing is still very untidy, but as he is now in the second year of a biomedical research PhD, it obviously hasn't been a huge limiting factor. He has said that if it ever becomes a real problem he would spend a couple of weeks studying caligraphy and sort it out, but it has yet to worry him enough to bother.

My daughter (12) does not like maths and so had done no formal maths until a few weeks ago when she came to me and said that she was now ready to tackle it as she could see it was a subject she would need to get the qualifications she wants to do her chosen career (Psychologist). She has chosen a structured course on a cd and is steadily working at it in a self imposed regime of one hour per day. I don't remind her or nag, it is her choice, although I do help if asked to.

you said "I hated mathmatical and scientific subjects at school but worked very hard at them because - well, I had to. And that in itself is one of life's lessons - that sometimes you can't just go to a museum, you have to sit down and do something that's thoroughly boring and turns you off."

I believe that by allowing my children the choice of when and what to work hard at or to choose not to work on at all I have allowed them to come to these subjects with a free mind, and strangly enough the very subjects that you look on as boring are what my son chose freely to study in great depth, without anyone pressuring him, but because he found them vital and fascinating. The subjects that he found dry and boring for instance history and geography, he probably hasn't studied much, and yet he seems to have built up an amazing depth of knowledge on all kinds of subjects without formal study. He now lives in Manchester, and often flies off at weekends to various destinations around the world, so I would guess his geography is adequate, and for fun he visits National Trust properties, so no doubt history is getting covered too. He does not in any way believe that his learning has come to an end, and is constantly trying new things, for instance he has just taken an Italian exam after blagging himself onto the last 8 weeks of a two year course - he says it doesn't matter if he passes, all he wanted was to be able to speak Italian better. He studies ju-jitsu and has a teaching qualification in it. He set up a skills swap where he got piano lessons from an international concert pianist in return for teaching her husband to play guitar (he has a grade 8 in guitar), and he has also just signed himself onto a diving course. He intends to spend his whole life trying to learn everything there is to know

"Also - I can see how home educating in the primary years might be OK but I know there is no way I would be equipped to teach some GCSE and A Level subjects - how do you manage when the complexity of a subject exceeds your own abilities?"

I have never sat down and made my children learn anything they have not wanted to know. I have never pretended to have the skills to teach them anything. All I have done is to enable them to learn the things they have expressed an interest in. They have never been told that learning is "hard work" or "boring" so they don't know that it can be - to them it is interesting and vital, and something to be earnestly desired. They have learned that they can do anything if they really want to.

My son decided to go to college to do the qualifications that he needed to get the job he wanted. He started at 14 doing GCSE's and A levels side by side. He left with 5 GCSE's and 4 A levels 3 years later.

When my son decided at 13 he wanted to use his body more, after being a computer geek for all his life, he first went to a local community hall and asked the ladies there if he could join their gymnastics class - he went along and queued in line (at 6' tall) with 3' tall girls in leotards, and learned the basics. The ladies were very dubious at first but singing his praises by the end of the session. Soon he searched the internet and found a gymnastics class for university students, then rang up and asked if he could join that. After going there for a couple of years he joined a ju-jitsu club - I paid for the first year and after that he paid his own way by working as an assistant tutor. When he was 17 they offered him the job of running the citywide operation running in 15 locations - he turned them down as he was due to start at University.

When he decided around about the same time, that he wanted to learn guitar, he approached a local home ed dad and negotiated a special rate to learn, without asking me for any funding. He funded it by selling on ebay and by doing odd jobs. He worked with the same tutor until he passed his grade 8 4 years later. He tutored others in his turn for cash, or as a skills swap for drumming tuition and piano tuition. He also played in a band for a couple of years.

My daughter recently expressed an interest in learning Japanese, co-incidentally we chatted to a Japansese stall holder at a car boot sale. My daughter asked her if she would give her lessons, so for the last few months we have had a small group of children in our front room learning Japanese or making sushi in my kitchen. In a charity shop last week, she bought herself "Memoirs of a Geisha", and finished it in one go as she found it so vitally interesting. She spends some time each day seeking out lessons on the internet and Manga cartoons to watch and is now quite good at the language - if I had imposed this on to her, I doubt she would have had the same desire to learn.

I could go on, suffice it to say that learning does not have to be hard work, or dull and boring, if it is never presented in that way. When my son was at college and university he never missed a single class except when he was ill. He never overslept or decided not to go. When he managed to take an extra module at Uni he was double booked for some lectures so arranged to tape one with the lecturers permission, and listened to them later.

It is the children who are forced to learn and told it is hard work instead of thatlearning is fun who are the ones who don't turn up to lectures or are still in bed at midday when they are expected elsewhere, in my experience.

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Runnerbean · 21/11/2007 16:26

'nuff said really!

I've only been He now 18 months so I still feel like a newbie but I started out trying to replicate school and be 'formal', because that's all I've ever known.
It didn't work though and I've had to relent and be led by my dds.
After a year of unsuccesfully trying to 'teach' my dd(8) geography I gave up and left to her own devices she discovered it herself by visiting www.enchantedlearning.com and now she 'studies' it with a passion.
She was particularly interested in Japan so she looked at the continent of Asia, volocanoes, the earths plates, Japanese culture and food and then taught herself some Japanese language, the only input from me was accessing books from friends.
I'm learning so much too!
Yes she too hated maths, I did, but we found online interactive maths games and she recently completed an 11+ maths test (which she'd bought herself from a charity shop) and achieved a very high score.
She is not keen on writing but has used the keyboard to write a fantastic story, which she writes in her own time when she's in the mood.
I don't have to force my dds to do work as all my non-HE friends seem to think, as a previous poster says children 'learn' by nature we all do!
There is stuff they have to do they don't like much, chores, tidying their rooms, brushing their hair (because if you don't it turns to dreads as dd found to her cost) shopping, interestingly as i write this I now can't think of any subject they hate and don't want to do. How many school kids can say that?

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Julienoshoes · 21/11/2007 20:44

"part of me wonders if HE kids aren't missing out."

All of me KNOWS that schooled children are missing out!
They are missing out on all of the things that HE children have the opportunity to do.

There is a book called "Free Range Education-How to Quit School and Get a Real Life" by Grace Llewllyn.
The title says it all really
It is an American book but really relates well to autonomous home education for teenager in the UK.

Our children did go to school and we only deregistered 7 years ago when we found out that home ed was a legal viable option.
We have home educated them through their teenage years.

The opportunities for autonomously home educated children are endless. And after we had given them time to recover from the damage done to them by schooling, our children began to realise that all learning can be fun.

We haven't made them do any formal work at all. They have simply lived their lives and learned along the way.
For instance in maths they were very interested in percentages when they opened bank accounts -and they discussed it earnestly with the bank tellers (as well as asking about ethical banking)
They worked out how much paint would be needed to redecorate their bedrooms, how many slabs to make a path and what would be the optimum angles to use to set up the poles for a tee pee.
They have the opportunity to travel the length and breath of Britain visiting their home ed peers, friends that they have made at all of the camps and gatherings, we have attended. They can easily manage bus and train timetables-and are independent confident, problem solvers.

Our eldest returned to the system to do A levels after 5 years of learning and living exactly as he chose.
According to the tutors he fitted in very well academically and socially.
His results reflect this.
We didn't tell him to do his homework or even put pressure on him to attend all his lessons. He did so simply because he had chosen to do the course-so why wouldn't he?
According to him, the only downside of FE college was being the only one answering/asking questions in his classes.

Our daughters have chosen instead to bypass GCSE and A levels and go straight to OU courses instead.

"know there is no way I would be equipped to teach some GCSE and A Level subjects - how do you manage when the complexity of a subject exceeds your own abilities?"

We have not had a problem with this at all-simply because we have not been teachers to our children, but rather facilitators of their education.
We have often learned together -and they have often taught us things!
For example all three have computer knowledge that far exceeds ours and they have been generous in sharing that with us. Eldest child developed a little business along the way, creating mobile phone 'wallpapers' and to do that he needed to learn 'Photoshop' and 'Dreamweaver' programmes. This is way beyond what his father and I can do-so he simply found someone else to help him. He was successful and every time someone downloaded one, he got paid
In a similar way when he wanted to learn guitar, he saved up and bought himself one and then found someone to teach him.

He now has a job, so that he can save money towards the university education he intends to get next.

Middle child is passionate about human rights, she has been involved in helping to run workshops for women who have been victims of domestic violence, and has recently co-chaired a conference on dyslexia for a new charity that she is involved with.
She too is a wizz on the PC and has experience of mobile internet technology.
She is a passionate vegan and has taught herself -and me, so much about the science of cooking and nutrition.
She did a sailing course not long after leaving school, which led to her spending the whole summer one year with another HE family, helping look after their younger children in exchange for sailing and navigation lessons as they sailed up the west coast of Britain and the east coast of Ireland.
She learnt such a lot that summer- for example, about the geology and geography of the UK and Ireland, the politics of the different countries and lots and lots of natural history.

Our youngest child was diagnosed as being very severely dyslexic. She left school after nearly five years of compulsory education completely unable to read or write a single word. We had been told she would need one to one help, all the way through her compulsory education.
Autonomous home education has allowed her education to run ahead whilst allowing her reading and writing to catch up when it was the right time.
We have found a very large part of our home education has been through purposive conversation-we have talked and talked about anything and everything.
Never knowing where a conversation was going to lead. But with a wealth of books available at the library and of course the Internet available, it doesn't matter if we know all of the answers to her questions-we can simply look up anything and everything.

When she left school and for a long time afterwards, she hated and loathed anything schooly and ran a mile from reading and writing.
We haven't given her a reading lesson-but eventually she got to the stage where she wanted to read and write-why wouldn't she? It is such an important gateway to so much knowledge and independence.
She finally started to read and write at 13 years old.
She reads and spells fluently now, aged 15 and is well educated. I simply don't believe the same would be true of a schooled child with a similar diagnosis.
Her passions at the present are singing and dancing, word puzzles and the origins of the language, Shakespeare's plays, sudoku puzzles, philosophy, human biology, sailing, conservation and her carbon footprint-to name but a few.

If you are interested in knowing more there is an interesting article that compares formal and informal home education here;
www.infed.org/biblio/home-education.htm
and one on the EO website, that explains for me, a lot of what we do and why;
www.education-otherwise.org/Links/HE_Adult_St/IWild.htm

and I also like Allie's post on the blog here;
greenhousebythesea.blogspot.com/2007/11/curriculum-or-dance.html

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Julienoshoes · 21/11/2007 22:01

OOps I mixed up two book titles!
The one I meant to mention is the "Teenage Liberation Handbook-How to Quit School and Get a Real Life" by Grace Llewllyn

and the one I mixed it up with(and I was talking to someone else about it tonight, so i guess it was on my mind), is "Free Range Education" edited by Terri Dowty.

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branflake81 · 27/11/2007 10:59

Thanks for all the replies - interesting reading.

One more question!

But aren't the things your children do as part of their HE "curriculum" (creative writing, National Trust etc) the things that most kids do for fun in their spare time, as well as learning what they do at school?

For instance, as a child I was educated at school full time, but spent my weekends writing poems and stories, going on trips to historic places, reading etc AND had the benefit of the extra stuff learned at school.

Again - not being critical (at least not intentionally) just interested.

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SueBaroo · 27/11/2007 13:20

branflake, I suppose it would help to define what you mean by the 'extra stuff' you learned at school. My children are learning to read and write, they're just not following the national curriculum (or any set curriculum, actually, we're using a bit from here and a bit from there)

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Julienoshoes · 27/11/2007 21:02

What 'extra stuff you learned in school'?

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branflake81 · 28/11/2007 10:46

On another note:

I am a linguist and studied three foreign languages at A Level. I had some really good teachers at school who I found really inspirational, they were able to talk to me about all kinds of literature, explain grammatical nuances etc etc. I don't think I would have been able to reach the academic levels I did in a home school environment. I did a lot of independent study at home - but that is different - it was really the teachers who fuelled my passion and gave me insights that a parent or book could not have done.

I believe home ed does have its benefits and for some children it is the best way...but how can you replicate the help that really good teachers bring?

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terramum · 28/11/2007 12:45

I personally wouldn't see having 'teachers' as always a good thing. For every good teacher that inspires there are countless others that put children off some subjects for life. Yes I had the most fabulous History teacher through much of my schooling, ended up doing it as my degree (although I am not sure the two are related). I wasn't so lucky in other subjects though. I was held back in maths & my teachers failed to notice I wasn't being challenged enough until the GCSE mocks when I got a higher mark than most of the set above mine. I was moved up straight away, but it was too late - I had missed a whole years worth of higher work and had no way of making it up which meant I couldn't go on to do A level maths; something I have always regretted. I also loved learning French until I got to A levels & the 2 teachers I had completely turned me off learning any more. The literature one was the most boring I had ever encountered and completely switched me off to any of the lessons so they became a chore, despite us reading some quite interesting stories. The language one was the nastiest, meanest teacher in the whole department, even the other teachers hated him . He spoke over us at every lesson and then ridiculed me & my friend behind our backs to another members of staff (who told us about what he had said afterwards). He made me lose all my motivation to learn the subject any more so I just went through the motions for the rest of the 2 years. I probably learnt far more from the brief school trip to Paris (without either of my actual teachers being there) and from my parents (my father having never studied French formally, and my mother who was studying her A level at college at the same time I was at school)

I am also wondering why you seem to assume the only people a HE child will see are their parents? (you said "...it was really the teachers who fuelled my passion and gave me insights that a parent or book could not have done."). HE is really not a good description for 'being educated otherwise' simply because for most children it doesn't happen just at home with only their parents & a their books for company. HE families meet regularly & share their skills in different subjects, some also make use of tutors and local colleges if needed so many also have access to teachers. In the case of languages, simply finding somebody locally who speaks a particular language fluently or is from that particular country would be just as inspiring as learning from a teacher imo. Then there is the advantage of being able to learn what they want to whatever level or detail they want, which IMO is a great source of motivation & inspiration in itself.

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Runnerbean · 28/11/2007 14:54

I guess no matter how many answers or evidence we give, unless it's actually experienced, people who don't HE just aren't going to get it!

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Julienoshoes · 28/11/2007 15:19

I believe home ed does have its benefits and for some children it is the best way...but how can you replicate the help that really good teachers bring?

I believe there are really good teachers out there-but given the breath of experiences that my children have had -not to mention the freedoms........how do you replicate the freedoms and experiences parents and home education brings ...........to poor school children shut up away from the real world all day?

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Runnerbean · 28/11/2007 19:08

This is interesting.....
c.person.ed.gn.apc.org/animation/

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CharlieAndLolasMummy · 28/11/2007 20:51

"how can you replicate the help that really good teachers bring? "

I think thats been answered actually, in Mehatabel's excellent post

One obvious way to get around this is by hooking your kid up (if need be-if they don't sort it out for themselves) with those excellent teachers. They are not all in school, not by a loooong stretch of the imagination, and anyway, the skills required to teach a subject 1-1 to a motivated student are pretty different to the skills required to teach the same subject in a 1-30 ratio with some kids who'd rather be out playing, some who don't really get whats going on but are scared to ask because they will look stupid, and some who have read 4 chapters ahead already.

And different teachers work for different kids of course. And not everyone learns best from teachers. Many people learn best from books or the internet, or from a mentoring situation.

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CharlieAndLolasMummy · 28/11/2007 20:53

(and a slightly OT point but FWIW-I am always AMAZED at the percentage of HEing parents who are/were either teachers, or at least involved professionally somehow in children's education. I'd say its easily around 60-70%)

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Elf · 29/11/2007 14:42

I'd just like to agree with Runnerbean when she says, that people who don't or haven't HE'ed, JUST DON'T GET IT.

It is so frustrating. I remember that was what people said when we were looking into HEing, they said it is great but the worst thing is OTHER PEOPLE'S questions, criticisms, comments. Now I am getting it too and it gets SO boring.

I applaud Mehetabel and Julienoshoes for having the patience to write such informative posts. BTW I still haven't worked out a way to satisfy the MIL's worries but frankly I don't care anymore

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BeNimble · 29/11/2007 17:11

a friend of mine said her first year of HE was worse for other folks' comments, then on the whole folks just accepted it...?!

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