My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Guest posts

Guest post: "What happens to our ambition when we become mothers?"

70 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 22/05/2015 13:47

When I was pregnant with my first child, I worked in an all-woman team. My boss was a successful and well-respected mother of three, who ran her department all day (and often all night) with scrupulous efficiency and would insist on driving me to the train station in her shiny smart car. The nursery rhyme tapes and banana skins she had to sweep off the passenger seat before I got in were only apparent once the door was opened.

Alongside generic Harassed Working Mumâ„¢, we seem to have two opposing caricatures for women in the workplace after they have had a baby. The first suggests we instantly lose all the skills and hunger we previously had and turn into flaky liabilities, focused exclusively on the needs of our offspring at the expense of our employer. The second is that of heartless career overdrive, abandoning our children in pursuit of world domination and putting the bitch into ambition.

Neither reflects any of the women I've known in a professional or personal capacity; or reflects the reality that for most of us (men and women) work is primarily about paying the bills. Still, the stereotypes persist, and lazy assumptions are damaging for employers and staff alike as talent is wasted and opportunities missed.

However, all research shows that for women as a group, things do change dramatically when we become mothers: we tend to work fewer hours, we work in lower status jobs and we are paid less, not just compared to our male peers, but compared to the earlier versions of ourselves. Are these changes the inevitable result of a natural shift in our priorities and commitments, or proof that the system is broken?

I was chatting last week with a friend who has, in my mind, attained the Holy Grail of working motherhood. She works part-time and from home in a career she loves, and still has the flexibility to shift an assignment on occasion in order to make it to her daughters’ school plays. If I was ever to define "having it all", hers is the picture I would draw.

Despite this, she told me that salaries in her firm had started to lag behind the average in the sector. A colleague wanted to ask management for a raise and had already started scoping out jobs elsewhere. My friend, who knows that her skills and experience are hugely in demand by competitors, intends to live with the gap. For her, the flexibility she has developed outweighs the prospect of an immediate pay-rise or promotion.

Is my friend living proof, then, that women do sideline themselves into the so-called "mommy track"? Does her situation show that we hand over our ambition in return for our first comfy pair of maternity office trousers? Or is it evidence of a more complex – yet hopefully more positive – reality?

Clearly, it's not as simple as women losing their ambition once they become mothers. Having children is a huge event in a woman's life, but I don't think it fundamentally changes who she is – especially if she has invested a huge amount of time and effort into reaching a certain point in her career. What I do think sometimes changes, however, is the subject of her ambition.

I'm not talking about an immediate sublimation or transfer of all her hopes and dreams onto her children – I read articles about Alpha Mummies who pour all their efforts into ensuring that their children leapfrog over every possible target, but I have yet to meet one in real life. Career success itself does not become less important. Instead, ambition has to jostle alongside other demands and desires, which our society still deems to be the particular preserve of women.

I struggled with this when I decided to leave work. I was plagued with fear that by walking away, I was betraying women who never had my chances, and worse, tainting those who came after me with guilt by association. I was making a reasoned choice based on my family's circumstances - but was I unwittingly 'giving in' to societal norms? Despite knowing it was nonsense, I was casting working women as a homogeneous group, a 'side' that I was letting down.

We need to remember that the decisions individual women make should not be taken as representative of mothers in general. The mother with a new-ish baby may want to reduce her hours in order to spend more time with him, the mother with school-age children may judiciously trade a measure of "fulfilment" (whatever that means) for flexibility in order to make family life run more smoothly. It would have made my decision much less painful to acknowledge - and to hear acknowledged from others - that a particular course of action reflects a specific set of circumstances, and not a more general attitude.

Sometimes, perhaps, the wish to do the best job possible at the time wins out over the wish to have the best job possible – and perhaps we need to think more clearly about who wins or loses as a result. In a difficult economic climate, as employers push for greater productivity and commitment, it is more important than ever to keep demonstrating that a valuable contribution doesn't necessarily depend on being the first one in and the last one to leave, or contributing to the largest number of group emails. You can still do a fantastic job even when your car is a mess. Just ask my old boss.

If you're looking a job that fits with your family life, visit Mumsnet Jobs here.

OP posts:
ArgyMargy · 26/05/2015 12:10

I think that, as with everything, there is a range of experiences and one size never fits all. I do think that women have a problem if they take a career break, and for some women that means they will never realise some of their previous ambitions. It would be good to move towards more acceptance that the mother is not the default answer if something goes wrong with the children/childcare and I think this will happen over time. Ambition does change over time and there is nothing wrong with that. Speaking from personal experience it is entirely possible to be respected and rewarded in the workplace as a working mother - sometimes we imagine the barriers when they don't actually exist.

ArgyMargy · 26/05/2015 12:14

I meant respected and rewarded as a working mother whose first priority is acknowledged to be her family.

Flingmoo · 26/05/2015 12:20

Interesting post.

Personally, having returned to work recently after 10 months of maternity leave, I feel like I've got a strange new balance. I only work 3 days a week now, but conversely I feel more ambitious than ever. I am now determined to be more than "just a mum" - I cant deny that being a mum is a momentous task, but personally I need to have my own achievements too, achievements that are not all based around having a happy/healthy/clever/whatever son or a tidy house.

I see how well my son is developing under the care of others while I'm at work and I'm considering upping my hours. I also feel that I want to succeed in my career to add to our household income, and to be a great role model for my child. I think it's good for my son to grow up seeing that mothers are not always stereotypes who stay at home and bake cookies but also have careers and other interests, I hope this will enrich his view of women and not think that daddy is the only one who goes off to the mysterious, supposedly important land of "work". (I do stay at home and bake cookies sometimes of course!)

In short, I think having a baby has made me more ambitious than ever before and the stereotypes are so, so inaccurate.

Duckdeamon · 26/05/2015 12:29

A big factor is the extent to which fathers share in childcare and domestic work and alter their ambition and work arrangements.

slightlyeggstained · 26/05/2015 12:32

Having a baby means stepping up to the responsibilities of providing for my child. The expenses are only going to go up as he gets older. In order to ensure that we're financially stable, and he has a safe secure environment to grow up in, I need to step up and make sure I can earn well.

Why is it supposed to be less important to earn a living when your expenses go up?

TheSunIsOftenOut · 26/05/2015 12:35

PP rightly suggests that stereotypes are unhelpful and inaccurate - while perpetuating t one about SAHM 'baking cookies'.

As a SAHM my children see me sitting on committees / acting as school governor / organising fundraising events for local activities / volunteering at school and church / singing in a choir / growing most of our vegetables and loads of other outside-the-home things.

Of course some of this is possible on top of WOTH but I would struggle to do all of them - or do them as well.

So yes - I think I am a really great role model to my children too.

TheSunIsOftenOut · 26/05/2015 12:41

Should add - I mean great role model for working / being active too (not just generally!!)

PomeralLights · 26/05/2015 12:41

Personally (as a SAHM) I dislike this 'how can women be career focused / ambitious again post kids' WHEN (only when) it is accompanied by silence on 'how can dads achieve more flexibility'.
Ultimately having children does, for most people, mean a sea-change in priorities. It should be more expected that the priorities of the family unit change, not the mother.
Until we focus on and encourage the priorities of the family unit* over always just the mother these difficulties will remain.

*Single parents have a really hard job and face different challenges to couples. I don't feel qualified to comment on LPs, but I don't think lumping all mothers together helps either group

elastamum · 26/05/2015 12:55

As a single parent in a FT professional job, I am inclined to agree with the poster above. Until we shift the debate from how can mothers balance career with parenting, to including both parents, little will change.

My children have two perfectly capable parents, but when they were small it never even occurred to their father to compromise his schedule to accommodate them. I have always adjusted my work schedule to accommodate the needs of my children - currently working from home to support GCSE revision - but this has meant that I haven't taken the opportunities for career progression that have come my way as they would have reduced my flexibility.

However, in the final analysis, I think my life and that of my children has been massively enriched by me spending more time at home and less pursuing career advancement. Jobs come and go, but you get one shot at being a parent.

lechie · 26/05/2015 15:09

I think I'm afraid I fit into the stereotype but that's the way I wanted it.

Before children, I had responsibility with my job, but I dropped all my management responsibility when I had children and went part time. This was the way Dh and I wanted it, even though I was the higher wage earner and we would have been financially better off if I had stayed full time and DH had gone part time.

Now DD1 is preparing to go to secondary and both children are in full time schooling, I have recently upped my hours again and have increasingly taken on more responsibility. In a few years, I'd like to look for a SLT job.

Yes, my career has been on the back burner for about 10 years, but on the plus side I've been able to make my children's sports days and special assemblies at school. I wouldn't change that for the world. Don't regret the decisions I've taken at all as I think family is more important than work, even though I'm quite career minded too.

It does help that now I'm back at work, DH shares any half days etc with me, so I don't have the burden of that at all.

DaysAreWhereWeLive · 26/05/2015 15:30

This really bugs me. Why is the woman in the article with the perfect work-life balance also apparently sidelining herself on the mummy track, or whatever the hell it's called?

After having my 2 children, I went back to work part time. I've had two promotions, earn 1/3 more than I used to, and work from home, flexibly, with time off for school trips, etc.

Damned if I'm on some 'mummy track'. I'm working my arse off. But then my company is pretty progressive and doesn't consider PT or flexible working as anything less than sitting at a desk for 40 hours a week, no matter what the workload.

anditate · 26/05/2015 15:52

I gave up a good paid management position when my twins were born. Do I regret it? No, not at all. I stayed at home until they began school and went to college. I now work in a preschool term time 4 days a week and on my day "off" I am at uni. I love the different facets if my life and my boys can see that a busy mum is a happy one.

howabout · 26/05/2015 16:58

I think the article and the whole discussion generally has the wrong starting point. My DH and I structured our careers in line with our ambitions and our family plans long before we had DC. We were married for 10 years before we had the DC and I appreciate this is not the case for many. However I think if society thought about childrearing between couples in these terms men and women would be able to plan better and the workplace would be a fairer place.

PomeralLights · 26/05/2015 17:07

Yy howabout

Postino · 26/05/2015 17:43

Completely agree the focus needs to be on both parents. We have small dc and I recently took on six months of heavy duty voluntary work in the run up to the election (with a view to related paid work).

My ability to do so was directly proportional to dh's willingness and ability to take up the slack.

Many women I know simply couldn't have done it for that reason.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/05/2015 17:43

Both DH and I have limited our careers more than we would if we were child free or if one of us was SAHP.

But we both have a good balance and both still have careers.

mumto3alexa · 26/05/2015 18:26

I get more ambitious after each child. I returned immediately after birth this time, and am doing 2000 things at once.I would say it was a big event having my first child. That changes when you have a couple more as they have to slot in.

I love work (probably too much). I practically ran there today after bank holiday weekend!

MadameLeBean · 26/05/2015 18:55

(1) I wish men had to consider all this when they have kids too but the majority don't, either because we don't ask them to and/or because they earn more (&think about why - little to no domestic responsibilities, no assumption they will take time off, or be distracted cos their wife had a baby - it's a vicious circle!)

The number of times I've been at work meetings where men openly congratulate each other for third baby on the way etc with a big fat assumption of ZERO for the impact it will on their work life makes me raging because why should they not do their fair share? Why do women get lumped with the default responsibility, assumed to be less focused/ambitious etc? Does anyone else not get raging at how unfair this is in the modern world?? If it was truly shared for every couple the impact on work (&the discrimination!) would be less on both parents. I get that people circs differ but as a thought experiment- try it.

As someone who's been a mother their whole working life I've had to work twice as hard to prove myself and been assumed not to be able to commit as much to the job despite demonstrating the opposite. I've had to become doubly ambitious else I'd just give up!

(2) I'd love it if workplaces were more progressive about flexible working but the reality is that most are not. Part time is seen as less committed.
It needs to be more normal for both men and women to fit work around family (or other commitments) & then we might stand a chance of getting some balance.

CountryMummy1 · 26/05/2015 18:57

I had a wonderful, fulfilling, well paid, high flying job before children. After 5 years of infertility I had 2 children and became a SAHM. I can honestly say that I have never felt as fulfilled in my life and I look forward to every day. As my oldest will be starting school next year I am looking forward to using my skills to help the school and in volunteer work in the community.

sleeplessbunny · 26/05/2015 20:14

I think this is missing the point rather. When I have a male boss and colleagues who need to sweep banana skins out of their cars, are working a 3 day week and questioning whether or not they are a good parent/useful employee, THEN I might question whether motherhood has reduced my ambition. Right now it's just patriarchal bullshit grinding away my determination.

captainproton · 26/05/2015 20:41

We need to educate our children that mums and dads raise children and both need to be prepared to sacrifice their time and ambitions. My DH did 6 months paternity leave, we had the same employer at the time. The boss didn't treat my 6 months off any different to DHs, we were both viewed a bit negatively afterwards. I don't think it's sexism, just that most employers hate career breaks for whatever reason. There are men out there who would love the opportunity to be the main child raiser and cut back on the hours. But their wives have called first dibs on being the main carer. dH nearly did so if it wasn't for my ill health.

Talk to your partners openly and honestly before having a child how is it going to work for you. Don't sleep walk into a scenario of working all hours God sends, and then doing all childcare and chores because you married a man who believes it's all 'women's work'.

mumto3alexa · 26/05/2015 21:05

Dh cut back his hours for me. He has to care for the children all day, and work in the evening. There are men that will give it all up for their wives.

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

GinnelsandWhippets · 26/05/2015 21:25

In what way did the OPs friend 'mummy track' - by deciding to work for a flexible business rather yhan a bunch of arseholes? How the heck is anything going to change if we dont vote with our feet and work for the places which offer a more rounded benefits package (and be clear with prospective inflexible employers that we are rejecting them for that reason). Women need to be more demanding - at work and at home. Go and work for the businesses which are prepared to be flexible. Marry and procreate with the men who are prepared to pull their weight. And expect them to do these things for you. Any man who puts his own career ahead of his partner's is shortsighted and possibly a bit of a twat. Fair enough if you can't afford to both work, or if you don't want to work after having kids. But no one has it all. if you want to work do, and be ambitious, but also be unafraid to ask for help from your partner and your employer. The worst that can happen is they say no. And then you know where you stand, don't you?

Oly4 · 26/05/2015 21:49

I worked part time after my first child was born but felt I'd just stepped backwards in my career. I'm going back full time after my second child and can't wait, I love my job and I want to feel
Productive. Luckily, I have good
Flexibility and can work from home. I'm also hoping to do the school pick up most days. I hope
In achieving the balance of being there for my kids while still working full time in a job I enjoy. I feel lost judged by other mothers. Some stay at home mums I know are aghast that I want to work full time. That it's not about paying bills for me but about feeling myself and feeling my job makes a difference. I have learned to accept it about myself that work is important to me and there's no need to feel guilty.

Oly4 · 26/05/2015 21:50

Sorry for typos!

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.