Turned down 4 days a week think I'm going to be jobless - help ! (longish sorry)

[Rookiemum]

I just had my return to work discussion, I'd put forward a proposal to job share but my boss doesn't want to consider it and I think its going to be refused. They are offering 4 days a week but I think thats too long for ds who will be 7mths at the time to be in nursery particularly as it would be for long days of 7.45 - 5.45. Plus I think I would find it too stressful as I'd effectively be doing my old job in 80% of the time on 80% of the salary. I did offer other options up to 3.5 days but again I don't think they are keen.

I've discussed it with dh and he is supportive, but the thing is we can afford it for the first year but after that we do need an element of my salary to stay in our house. There is a chance that another job may come up in the organisation as its a big one that would be job share or p/t but no guarantee.Also as I am fairly senior there are less opportunities for that sort of thing ( I'm finding out that it doesn't pay to do well in your career if you are a woman)

I know there are all sorts of grievance procedures I could go down but I don't want to go back on bitter terms as I think that would be unworkable. I'm also looking into childminders rather than nursery as if 4 days is the only option I'd feel happier about him there than at the nursery but tbh I just feel that for our family me working 4 days isn't the right option

Please tell me I'm doing the right thing by sticking to my guns

[gigwig]

Yes stick to your guns for as long as you can.

If you go back on a certain number of hours/days it can be so hard to cut them down, whereas employers generally are much more inclined to let you increase them at any stage.

Look into a childminder so that you feel happier about your DS being in childcare.

It is so much easier to get another job when you are already in work so you could go back and look for something else as well.

[purpleprincess]

If you feel it is not right for you then you should definitely stick to your guns. Remember also that your company have to come up with some proper business reasons why you cannot work part-time. Have you suggested a job share. I agree that there is no point taking on part time role if you are still trying to tackle full time job responsibilities. Take a look on the web - DTI and Tiger websites (sorry cant remember exact addresses) and there is loads on your right to request part time hours. As mentioned it may be easier to go back to work for a bit (if you can bear it) and start looking around.

I have been working 3 days a week for the past 4 years (since DS born and also now have DD). My company recently asked me to go to 4 full days as they wanted to 'expand' the role. I decided very quickly that it was too much of a compromise for me and said no. I'm not sure what they would have come up with for me and what they are going to do but since then I have found another job which fits in a lot more with my family and is term time only etc. They too said that ideally this was a full time role but they understood I couldnt commit to that now. My attitude was there was no point trying to do full time job in 4 days and I couldnt see any point in the future where I would want to increase it to 5 days.

So basically - good luck! Check out some of those websites and remind your company that they may well lose a valued employee completely if they are unable to compromise.

[Littlefish]

There is a thing called a Variable Contract which I think means that you agree a contract which changes over time. ie. you could agree to go back for 3 days initially, rising to 4 days after a set period of time (up to a year I think). It might be worth you looking into this as a compromise.

[Rookiemum]

I had proposed a job share based on wording from the tiger website to avoid the lack of cover issue & the me doing the entire job in a reduced time frame, but they are likely to decline it for imho fairly dubious reasons. I was surprised that they could do this, but I don't see that it is worth going to dispute over as job share will only work if the line manager is supportive.
They did discuss the option of 3 building up to 4 days but I think they meant over weeks rather than months.

I did think about going back to work for a bit whilst looking for something else, but I feel that I probably wouldn't be able to stick it for any length of time and may end up being off with stress which means I wouldn't get anything else, whereas at least if I refuse it then there is an option of something coming up in the next 6 months of extended maternity leave.

I have looked up a childminder that specialises in young babies and am going to contact her anyway.I guess I could maybe try to cut down the hours for the 4 days.

Does anyone work 4 days a week and find it ok ?

[lexiemum]

most weeks I work 3 x 10hr days (12 with commute)but last month I started doing 4 days on alternate weeks (2nd and 4th week of month) - it was very very tiring and I did miss the dc's.

My 3 day pattern is much better but been in this now for well over a year.

It was much harder leaving dd1 when a baby - so much so that I did the minimum hrs we needed to cover our outgoings and worked when dh was at home. DD1 didn't get childminded until 21months.

DD2 was a different story - felt I could leave her and have left her with the childminder for 2 days a week since 6mths.


take your extended mat leave and use the accrued annual leave to limit your working week when you return (i.e. one day a week as annual leave) - might make it easier and if it doesn't work you can hand notice in / find another job. Have you got examples from workplace where other returning women have received similar working patterns? Is there a case to have opportunity to have some "work at home hours" (do others have this - men or women)

[Rookiemum]

I also offered the option of 3 days one week and 4 days the other as a potential solution. I talked to my mum last night and she has kindly offered to help with child care so if I do end up going for the above she could do one day during the 4 day week meaning that at least DS would be with someone he knows and wouldn't have to be out of the house so much, oh and we wouldn't have to pay for childcare we would only be using once a fortnight.

From talking to my mum & friends I am now pretty decided that I will not accept 4 days a week. My mum worked more or less f/t when I was young although it was shorter hours and I was looked after by a wonderful childminder who we are still really close to today. I thought she would be encouraging me to go back to work, but no she was very much with me and said I should do what I thought was right and it was a shame to have a baby and hardly see him, so I think she regrets that she didn't have that opportunity when I was young. Also suggested that I should have another ds or dd to keep me busy, but I think thats a bit of a drastic short term solution !

Anyone I have talked to who does 4 days per week is doing a f/t job in that time and hates it so if I did that I wouldn't have the inclination or the energy to search for another job. Thanks Lexiemum about using days suggestion but they have paid me for accrued leave up to end of June, even though I didn't ask to so that isn't an option. Plus I feel that my boss would not be supportive or agreeable to any reduction of my working week as when I was pg and finding the last few weeks tough I used one day a/l per week to help my energy so I wouldn't be on s/l and she agreed this very reluctantly. I don't blame her for any of this as she has a job to do, I feel that its HR that should be ensuring that the policies and procedures are more than just words.

Perhaps they will come up with a mutually workable solution, but if not another position could well come up in the next 6 months or worst case scenario we think we could just about manage in the house on one salary provided we eat porridge for the rest of our lives.

I will update on what happens, love mn for having the opportunity to put it all down and get really helpful advice and suggestions from other mums.

[blueshoes]

Rookiemum, sympathies.

Agree that you should not try to fit your ft job into 4 days because it would be lose-lose for you. Unless the discussions around cutting your hours are linked to how you can offload some of your responsibilities, you would have to be aware of the risk that your boss might be expecting you to do the job for a pro-rata reduced pay.

HR are pretty much useless when it comes to supporting women on flexible working. And the flexible working regulations are pretty much useless as well because there is a huge get-out for employers if they can cite "business reasons" for refusing your application.

I too was reluctant to move and was in fact considering appealing and took legal advice about going to an employment tribunal on grounds of discrimination and constructive dismissal. But in the end, I just jumped at the first (and only) part time internal vacancy available at that time, which was a short term secondment covering for another lady's maternity leave. Stayed in that role for 7 months and then now happy in my permanent pt position (through another internal vacancy). It IS more difficult at a senior level, but if you are not too fussed about the pay and prepared to accept a discount for flexible working in a different role, then at least your current high salary allows you to take that hit.

I took about a 25% discount to get this role (on top of a prorata cut) but it is the best thing because it is truly a pt role and I have loads of control over my time - simply because it is a different role that is more amenable to pt working. That way, you won't get the grief of trying to help your boss do her job.

By all means give the 3/4 day option a go and keep your antenna up for internal vacancies. It is very handy to have your mother there. Don't give up. You'll find your niche. I am glad I kept one foot in the working world - it has saved my sanity.

[Rookiemum]

The one thing from reading through the responses is there is no right answer for everyone. Like blueshoes I'm hopeful that if I do reject this then over the next 6 months a p/t vacancy may come up as I work at the base of one of the large banks and there is a number of vacancies. I think it would be a different story if this was happening at the end of the 12 months as I would literally have no options then.

I take on board what you say anniemac and much respect for you for doing f/t job and being with kids, but I just feel for me the 4 days would be too much even for a short period of time ( probably because I am a lazy sod) and I'd rather take a pay cut and take whatevers going with hours that suit than go back doing f/t in 4 days.

[lazycow]

I am havinmg this very issue at the moment. I came back to work 3 days a week and also took a pay cut on top of the pro-rata cut. This worked well as there are two other people (one on 4 days a week)here who work with me on my clients so I effectively job share with them. However the 4 day a week woman is going on maternity leave and my 3 day working week was always on a negotiable stance - now I am being asked to work 4 days which I have been doing some weeks when my job load gets too high. The difference between 3 and 4 days a week at work is very big and I really don't want to do this long-term as the weeks I am working 3 days seem so much less stressful. My ds is with a lovely childminder who he loves (started there at 11 months old) so that is not really the issue. We can actually afford to pay for 4 days a week childcare every week but only use 3 days on the weeks I can get away with 3 days a week. Even doing this my salary is worth having. However I really do not want to do 4 days a week long-term. The reality is that things get even more difficult when children start school so saying things will get better then is a bit optimistic in my opinion. I would love to find some sort of work that is viable in the long-term which is 3 days a week. My profession is just not easy to do this in - I have been very lucky in my employers so far

I may be looking at being a SAHM but I'm not too keen on that either tbh (sad]

[Rookiemum]

Thanks anniemac for that. I did ask DH if he could do condensed hours for a 4 day week and if that was the case then I'd probably agree to 4 days, but due to the nature of his job he can't and as his commute is longer he couldn't help at all with pick up.


Our coffee group is meeting up this pm so will see if anyone else has anymore positive info about their return to work ( think everyone else is just trying to forget about it until the year is up, maybe I should have done the same !)

[Rookiemum]

Oh the other thing I meant to say is I'm just beginning to realise that there are no easy choices about working when you are a mum, I feel guilty that I am not overjoyed about the prospect of being a SAHM, when I know loads of women would love to have that option.

[Hamandcheese]

I returned after the first (when her was 6 mo) 4 days per week, which were 10hrs for her (including my travel). She was 3 at nursery and 1 with grandparents.

It was fine at first, but got too much for me when DH started working away, and I was lucky enough to cut to 3.

Working 3 days was better for me and DD (now got 2 children), but MUCH more detrimental at work.

If I were you (and I'm not) I would take the 4 day offer if nothing else came along, and try to make some of the following work:

• if you take OML and AML, you should be able to avoid going back till your baby is 10mo+, which did seem older than 7 mo to me (returned when first was 6.5mo, and when 2nd was 10.5mo and the 10mo seemed much 'older'.
  
• used acrued A/L to work shorter weeks regularly. If you don't reduced your hours until you return to work (rather than when you go on mat leave) you should be acruing FT leave; you can then use unpid parental leave to cover your 'holidays'.
  
• look into different forms of childcare - having used a nursery the first time, I would chose a CM if I were to choose again. Can you afford a nanny? or can you find a nanny share or nanny-with-own-child (some of whom are a bit cheaper)? can your parents do some childcare?
  
  I think decent senior pt roles are v v hard to find once you are out of the company, so I would tend to hang onto what you have. I also think that it is easier to make something work once you are in place - they will have managed without you for 12 months, so they will have adjusted to your absence to some extent and ways to reduce your work-load may have come up in the meantime.
  
  best wishes.

[Hamandcheese]

Should add: I would also hold out for as long as possible. I asked for and was refused an option before I went on mat leave. By the time I came to return, the manager had moved on and their replacement agreed it. A lot can happen in the next 12-15 months.

[Rookiemum]

They have asked me to come in again next week to discuss options so fingers crossed they may have considered some of my suggestions (says rookiemum naively).I will report back on any progress.

One good thing from this is that I am reconsidering my childcare options ( if indeed childcare is needed)I was out walking today and met one of the neighbours who told me that a registered childminder who is good lives on our estate,and according to my list she has vacancies so thats a bit of a bonus. Sorry a bit off track but wanted to share some positive news.

[blueshoes]

that's great, rookiemum. Keep us posted

[Rookiemum]

I hear what you are saying anniemac and tbh the prospect of being a ft SAHM fills me with almost as much dread as the other option. Still hopeful that some halfway house exists and whilst it's not ideal I am also prepared to drop grade & salary if that is necessary.

Anyway must go and play with rookiebaby not much point in being at home if I ignore him all day to post on MN ( so addictive though !).

[Rookiemum]

Well I have had my meeting, it went much better than last time. The options they are looking at are the 4 day/3 day pattern or 4 day 3.5 days with that 0.5 being from home, but fingers crossed I think they are going to agree the latter.

In the meantime I also met the childminder and I really like her and feel a lot more comfortable about leaving DS there, also she is reasonably flexible over hours although there is still some juggling over one day a fortnight.

Its not my ideal resolution but at least its a compromise. I feel a bit sad because 3 days a week would have been the ideal work/home balance for us but I think the important thing is to really make the best of the time with DS and we have enough money to throw at the domestic chores so I'm going to make a point of ensuring that I don't spend my time off doing that.
Thanks everyone for your support.

[Rookiemum]

I've had time to think about this overnight ( as DH was out on the beers) and realised that I am the one who has done most of the compromising sigghhhh. I still think it can work but I need to ensure that DH and I have all the chores & DS care equitably split as I read somewhere that once women go back to work they still end up doing 90% of the housework, if this happens I am going to end up very resentful. DH is a sweetie but is much enjoying my mat leave and has got well used to the magic laundry, cooking and bottle sterilzing fairy.

Anybody got any tips on this or should I repost somewhere else ?

[lizziemun]

i would write a list of chores to done eachday/week and split between yourselves. Make dh understands that you will not be working and doing all the housework when you are working.

when i was working before becoming a sahm i would do all the cooking, washing, ironing and cleaning the bathrooms. DH did the washing up, hoovering and dusting.

If he did not do the washing up i didn't cook dinner the following day, he soon learnt to remember to do the washing up if he wanted feeding.

It also easy to ignore the hoovering and lack of dusting during the week as long as it was done once a week i could live with it.

i also did all the shopping as i planned the weekly dinners it was easier for me get what i needed.

i hope this helps you just might have to learn that things are not done to your standards.

[bootsmonkey]

Have scan read your thread, so apologies if you have explained this further down, but if they are increasing your hours for the four days, it would appear to me you will be doing between 36-38 hours per week, depending on what you take for lunch, which is in my mind full time hours. How can they pro-rata down to 4/5?? How many hours a week do you currently work??

I work 4 days a week and have done since going back to work when my DD was 4mo. It works well for me, I increased my hours so that I work 35 hours over the full week and retained my full pay. My job entails overnight stays every month, so there is extra hours on top. I am lucky in that my company is very pro-family/work life balance and they have done everything they could to accommodate me.

[bootsmonkey]

oh, and BTW, I do sweet FA housework!! DH (SAHD) does all the hoovering, I do all cooking & bathroom cleaning. DD is dusting queen!