End of year 3 and graded at a 4c is this good?

(34 Posts)
Souredstones Sat 13-Jul-13 07:51:08

Title says if all really. My child is g&t for most subjects but is way ahead of her peers in maths and literacy. We got the school reports yesterday and no clue as to where they should be at what age so I have no idea what a 4c means and where that puts her

Thanks in advance

chicaguapa Sat 13-Jul-13 08:10:34

It sounds like you already know your DC is way ahead anyway.

Level 4 is average at the end of Y6. Your DC is at the bottom of L4 now, with 3 years to go. (L4a is higher than L4c) That means he/she is on target for high L5/ L6 at the end of KS2.

It brings its own set of challenges and he/she may plateau for a little while as it's sometimes hard for DC to progress academically until they're at the right maturity level.

DD was L4a across the board at the end of Y3 but was still there at the end of Y5. But she made it up in Y6 and has just got a mix of L5/6 in her SATS. HTH

numbum Sat 13-Jul-13 08:15:24

Lol and you couldn't find this information anywhere on the internet?

If she's g&t and 'way ahead of her peers' of course it's good.

yetanotherworry Sat 13-Jul-13 08:26:52

Sorry but can I hijack your thread. I have a child who is the same. Obviously the school are aware of this as they have graded him. Do I need to go and talk to the about how they are going to differentiate his work as I have questions. If these children are working at such a high level now, are we in danger of them getting to a stage where they run out of 'primary school' work to do. Presumably there is only so much they can teach them before they go to secondary school. Can anyone offer advice?

Iamnotminterested Sat 13-Jul-13 09:08:48

I really wouldn't worry, seriously. 4c at the end of year 3 is very good but not freakishly 'what are we going to do with this child?' kind of ahead and any primary school would not run out of things to teach them as yetanotherworry asks. Dd is working at level 5 for literacy at the end of year 4 and I just had a quick chat with her new year 5 teacher who I have every faith in to stretch her next year. The level 6 tests I guess can test up to a 6a so enough there for the most able kids.

Jinsei Sat 13-Jul-13 11:16:07

I don't understand the posts from people who say, "my child has been graded as x, should I go and talk to the school about differentiating the work". confused

If your child has achieved a grade that is significantly higher than expected for their age, then surely it's pretty obvious that the school have already been differentiating the work as they have taught your child to that higher level. And as they themselves assessed your dc as being at that higher level, they have clearly recognised that he/she is ahead and will need further differentiation to make the expected levels of progress. Why do people have so little faith in schools that are clearly helping their dc to fulfil their potential?!

yetanotherworry Sat 13-Jul-13 12:34:27

Jinsei, but if schools stick to the curriculum then what do they end up teaching them when they get to year 5/6 if they're already working at that level now. I can see with literacy its easier but with things like maths where going up a level involved introducing new concepts that aren't usually taught until senior school, then what do they do? (BTW this is me not understanding the system rather than thinking my child is too clever for the system).

Acinonyx Sat 13-Jul-13 12:51:42

I think a short chat is quite appropriate. I will ask to see dd's y4 4 teacher for this purpose - never done this before but I do have some specific queries/concerns. Her yr 4 teacher seems very competent - but I'd like to talk at the beginning of the year all the same.

It will be very interesting to see if she plateaus in year 4 or not. If she doesn't, I will definitely want to know something about the plan for yr 5. I don't want to go most of a year before facing the fact that something is really not right, and not just some temporary blip (which has happened twice now).

''surely it's pretty obvious that the school have already been differentiating the work as they have taught your child to that higher level'' I think this is rubbish, frankly.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 13-Jul-13 12:53:35

So you know your child is streets ahead in maths and literacy, but you have no idea at all whether the level they've been given is good or not? really?

Jinsei Sat 13-Jul-13 13:04:38

''surely it's pretty obvious that the school have already been differentiating the work as they have taught your child to that higher level'' I think this is rubbish, frankly.

Why is it rubbish? Unless you are hothousing your child at home, I think it's likely that they are learning what they know in school. I realise that bright kids can teach themselves to some extent, but there are some things that they do need to be taught. Also, I don't think schools would bother assessing to a certain level if they weren't teaching to it. hmm

As for what they will teach in years 5 and 6, it's my understanding that primary schools can assess up to level 6a, so for a child getting 4c at the end of year 3, there is still plenty of room for progress. Our school has certainly been teaching some children to level 6, and they don't seem remotely concerned as to whether it's primary or secondary curriculum stuff.

I think people get too hung up on the fact that level 4 is the expected level for the end of year 6. If it's expected for all children, it stands to reason that lots of children will be working at a higher level, and any half-way decent school should be geared up to teach these children.

yetanotherworry Sat 13-Jul-13 13:12:27

Thanks Jinsei, that's very reassuring. Ds goes to a fairly decent primary so hopefully they will carry on differentiating as you say. As you say, they have taught him well so far; I'm far too lazy and impatient to teach him anything at home and also have the concerns that if I teach him stuff, then there's nothing left for the teachers to teach!

numbum Sat 13-Jul-13 22:31:30

yetanotherworry our school get some children from year 13 in from secondary school to give extension lessons twice a week to children working at a L5/6. My y3 DS is a 5c in maths and will be starting the extension lessons in September. It benefits the primary school children AND the year 13s.

Any decent school should have a way of dealing with able children

musicalfamily Sun 14-Jul-13 18:29:56

As for what they will teach in years 5 and 6, it's my understanding that primary schools can assess up to level 6a

I read this a lot on Mumsnet, but none of the schools in our area test, assess or teach L6 in Y6. Therefore it is a genuine concern to have a child at L4 in Y3 as it isn't clear how they are effectively progressed in Y5 and Y6.

thismousebites Sun 14-Jul-13 18:35:44

At DS's primary school they put them in separate groups. For those in YR 6 who are ahead of the others in their year they also have after school classes where they give extra tuition.

PiqueABoo Sun 14-Jul-13 22:21:15

Key point: The revived L6 SATs are still reasonably new and a few months ago a report for the DfE explained that they were a bit of a crock. Perhaps it went better this year but they said L6 Literacy was useless since hardly anyone passes. L6 Numeracy seems OK with ~3% passing but there's still the transition problem AKA the "Berlin Wall" i.e. Primary reckon Secondary are dismissive of their L6 teaching and will likely make the kids do the work again from scratch and Secondary tend to confirm those fears. Lots of finger-pointing, not a lot of action. I blame Secondary because they tend to have lots of staff in manglement jobs and are clearly best positioned to take the lead on this with their primary feeders.

Literacy and most other subjects are relatively forgiving in a Primary mixed-ability class with grouping i.e. top tables etc. Numeracy is more problematic because it's difficult to differentiate in-class for a potentially wide ability range. You really do need L6 Numeracy kids going out of class for some L6 teaching and I would spit parental venom if that only happened as an after-school activity.

Ofsted will likely be quite hissy about 'coasting' now given that they recently released a fairly damning report on the "Most Able", however that means KS2 SATs level 5c upwards which is roughly the top 1/3rd of the ability range. The report is also largely targeted at Secondary deficiencies which IMO is the right place. Nevertheless it's better than nowt for primary "G&T" and I would expect any slacker Primary schools to start pulling their socks up for kids on target for L6 by the end of KS2.

Jinsei Sun 14-Jul-13 23:00:41

I read this a lot on Mumsnet, but none of the schools in our area test, assess or teach L6 in Y6. Therefore it is a genuine concern to have a child at L4 in Y3 as it isn't clear how they are effectively progressed in Y5 and Y6.

Really? I only know about our school really, but they do teach a number of children to level 6 each year. It's a pity if some schools don't do this.

chickydoo Mon 15-Jul-13 07:00:03

My son got 4a across the board yr 3
He's bright but no genius. From experience with my other 3 kids it all levels out in the end. TBH I don't think 4a in yr 3 is a big deal really.

Acinonyx Mon 15-Jul-13 09:54:03

'I would spit parental venom if that only happened as an after-school activity.' Me too - she spends plenty of time at school already and It think it's reasonable to expect some of that to be at the appropriate level.

Level 6 has not been taught or tested at our school but there are plans to introduce it. Many schools don't go to this level - but as Pique explains, teaching to L6 may not be the best solution especially if there is poor co-ordination with secondary schools. It's the habit of coasting that is the key issue to address - preferably before secondary.

musicalfamily Mon 15-Jul-13 14:00:28

Acinonyx, and how do we go about that, ie addressing the habit of coasting? I think you are spot on, that is definitely my biggest concern for DD1. She does extracurricular activities (music, etc), but the school coasting issue is becoming a major one, and as she is only in Y3 (well soon Y4) I am worried about how to address it...

Any ideas very much appreciated!

Acinonyx Mon 15-Jul-13 14:13:05

It's my biggest concern too and something I want to talk to her yr 4 teacher about. I know she sits in a dream world a lot of the time - just like her mother hmm. I'm realistic about the time a teacher can give to this issue in a class of nearly 30 kids but I think we could keep some points in mind. For example, dd does not tend to respond to extra challenges - if it's optional - why bother herself hmmhmm The actual task needs to be the challenge because if she can take the easy path - she will.

I'm a lot less concerned about level 5 vs 6 than I am about learning to embrace effort, difficulty and <<gasp>> even failure. I see this as our major mission through junior school.

The extracurricular stuff helps (because most of it requires practice) but my gut feeling is that it will always be separate to school stuff.

musicalfamily Mon 15-Jul-13 14:29:48

Acinonyx, I think we have the same child. You couldn't have described my situation and my DD1 any better really. I just want to see her fired up with enthusiasm again - she will also always opt for the easy option - interestingly she doesn't do that with out of school stuff like music. So I think it is definitely a habit she acquired at school, sadly...

I am also planning to speak to the Y4 teacher next year too.

RedHelenB Mon 15-Jul-13 15:08:55

All that will happen over time will be that the L6 will become the new Level 5 And the level 5 will become the level 4 & it all becomes meaningless! It used to be rare to get level 5's!

Fragglewump Mon 15-Jul-13 15:14:37

Boasty parent....<yawn>

PiqueABoo Tue 16-Jul-13 09:34:52

@Acinonyx: "I'm a lot less concerned about level 5 vs 6 than I am about learning to embrace effort, difficulty and <<gasp>> even failure."

My DD is at the end of Y5 so it's pressing, but I'm more against largely pointless L5 Numeracy work in Y6 than for L6. They have had some 'additional maths' since Y4 and she will get explicit L6 teaching in her single form state primary next year, but I'd have settled for anything new and I do like things with a social and character development angle.

We don't have your problem: Squealy girly fun aside, DD lives for challenges and if it's "pip-squeak" academic stuff will have races or something to make it interesting. The main issue in recent years has been eradicating the effects on her of being summer-born with a later January school start i.e. the oldest=best pecking order stuff that some, not all, of them acquire.

Souredstones Tue 16-Jul-13 11:05:50

My only concern is that my child is going into a year 3/4 class for year 4 where there are only 8 year 4's.

I also have genuinely no idea about levels in reports so this was a genuine query and can do without the snide remarks

iseenodust Tue 16-Jul-13 13:09:12

Jinsei has spoken a lot of good sense.

DS got 4c's at the end of yr3. He's on G&T for maths but not English so I consider it advanced but not exceptionally so.

Acinonyx Tue 16-Jul-13 13:20:11

Souredstones - threads in this section always get snide remarks - you get used to it wink IIWY I'd be interested to see what they are expecting for her next year. It really helps if there are other children at that level - the more the better (we have a few).

Pique - dd is also a summer baby which I actually think is a good thing - I don't think being yet another year further ahead would help us at all [shocked] It does have consequences though as she is not as socially smart as she could be hmm and in fact if she were the oldest I think in that regard she would still be one of the youngest IYSWIM. That has knock on consequences for her powers of literary inference - hard to understand people's behaviour in a book that she similarly wouldn't understand in real life - in fact reading has really helped her in real life probably as much if not more than the other way around.

I agree they need new stuff. I did a bit of algebra with dd the other day. She'd heard me talking about it for some reason with a friend and started mithering me about it. I wouldn't have thought of agreeing to teach it but for another thread on here where someone had taught it to their 7 yr-old. So I though - why not? Nice to see her actually wanting to do something a bit challenging for once - shame to let the opportunity pass. Some useful ideas on here sometimes!

Maths is really the tricky one at yr5-6 - as mentioned, literacy is so much easier to stretch within the general lesson plan. I really don't know if that's going to be an issue for us or not yet - dd is rather unenthusiastic about maths generally.

titchy Tue 16-Jul-13 13:22:44

You posted on G & T....
You said in your OP your child is way ahead in maths and literacy...

Do you really think people would say his reported level would be bad? Why would you even need to ask if it was good? You mentioned nothing about the possible consequence of being in a mixed y3/y4 class.... therefore your post was really just a 'look at me and my kid' boasty post.

AvonCallingBarksdale Tue 16-Jul-13 13:55:41

I think 4C is very good at the end of year 3. However, it's not jaw-to-the-ground-OMG-this-child-is-a-genius type of good.

keepsmiling12345 Tue 16-Jul-13 20:15:59

And OP, a 30 second google search would have given you information about the levels if you really didn't know anything about them...if your concern was that your DC is going into a mixed y3/y4 class, you could have posted about that. Instead you posted that your DC is "way ahead of her peers"...well guess what, you are going to get a lot of responses on a MN G&T board saying that really your dd isn't that far ahead. Is that what you wanted?

Dixiefish Wed 17-Jul-13 12:24:26

I would have expected a child who was 'streets ahead' to get higher than 4c at the end of Year 3, at least in reading. My DDs both got this in English (3A in maths) and though they're bright they're by no means exceptional and there are definitely more able kids in the year.

Acinonyx Wed 17-Jul-13 15:43:12

It does depend on the year group and catchment. I have friend whose dd is a high 4 end yr 3 and is the only free reader in her entire class - so there must be quite a gap there.

RustyBear Wed 17-Jul-13 15:51:49

Piqueaboo:"I blame Secondary because they tend to have lots of staff in manglement jobs" Love the typo!

At the school I work at the top Maths sets routinely do work from the year above, including Year 7 work in Y6; the secondary school that most of them go to also sends a teacher to take a group every week for extension work.

Norudeshitrequired Tue 01-Oct-13 10:19:32

I would have expected a child who was 'streets ahead' to get higher than 4c at the end of Year 3, at least in reading. My DDs both got this in English (3A in maths) and though they're bright they're by no means exceptional and there are definitely more able kids in the year.

A lot of schools only test to a certain level at the end of year 3. If they haven't offered a test that allows for the child to get higher than a 4c then the child can only get a 4c regardless of how capable they are of achieving higher.

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