How does G&T work? Stupid question <ironic>

(52 Posts)
PrincessOfWails Wed 12-Dec-12 11:55:08

If your child is labelled G&T, is that across all areas or is it limited to certain areas? And then, once labelled, do they keep an eye on them and see if they're doing well across the board or something?

noisytoys Wed 12-Dec-12 12:05:59

DD is labelled G+T. It is different in all schools but in DDs school it is only children who's needs can't be met in the classroom and needs extra 1-1 help for which the school gets funding. There are 2 G+T children in her whole school but different schools have different policies

PrincessOfWails Wed 12-Dec-12 12:21:51

I was told at DS1's parents evening that he is G&T, but is that in everything? (Surely not - his colouring in is dire.) Maths and language was mentioned, and he is getting on really well with his reading from what I can tell.

noisytoys Wed 12-Dec-12 12:34:35

It's usually for specific subjects (unless they are all round brilliant). DD is G+T for reading, phonics and maths. She is lime level reading (age 4) and level 3 maths. All other aspects of her life she is completely normal

Wafflenose Wed 12-Dec-12 13:40:28

It's up to individual schools to decide on the criteria, and whether they will do anything about it. It's usually the top 5-10% in each subject.

DD1 is 7.1 (in Year 2)and has a reading age of 12+ including comprehension, is Level 4 for elements of her writing, particularly structure, vocabulary and punctuation; Level 3 for all her other subjects except Science, and is working towards Grade 4 on her main instrument, and Grade 1 on her others.

In our school, she isn't G&T. In other schools, no doubt she would be.

It varies. Sorry.

What schools classify as G & T often isn't. We used to be members of the National Association of Gifted Children and these kids were in the top 2-3% of intelligence but they weren't all round brilliant. Some were exceptional at maths; others at science or music or art. What schools are calling G & T are children that are very bright and need extension activities. Gifted is a different ball game. Two of mine are at a very selective grammar school and love it. They don't have to hide their intelligence, which as boys they probably would have done at another school.

Niceweather Wed 12-Dec-12 19:57:50

Our secondary has a G&T club where you get to go on trips, listen to talks and debate.

madwomanintheattic Wed 12-Dec-12 20:12:53

I had no idea you could be g&t for phonics. How bizarre! (And possibly pointless?)

It's very different everywhere. Dd2 was gifted across the board except handwriting (she has cerebral palsy lol, and uses a laptop), and at one school we were told that to access the regional gifted programme, you had to be working two years ahead of peer group across the board. Despite being up to 7 years ahead, we were told she couldn't take part because her handwriting wasn't good enough.

Heh heh.

Tbh, the way most schools use g&t, it just means they are doing particularly well in an area. A good school will be differentiating for ability. Sadly, some schools don't appear to out much effort into differentiation at either end of the scale. Some will set out Ieps for gifted kids, and if this is the case, you should be invited in to discuss appropriate goal setting, two or three times a year, depending on age of child.

CURIOUSMIND Wed 12-Dec-12 20:56:39

Read any other previous thread about G&T, see how many Dcs are labelled gifted in reading (eventually is not even an subject on its own)and maths!
Considering maths teaching in England is miles behind many other countries,
the G&T label is meaningless in most of the cases.
I don't think parents should be distracted by that fancy pointless label, just keep dong what you are doing well.

iseetinselandtantrums Thu 13-Dec-12 14:12:21

We got a letter from school at start of KS2 saying DS was gifted in maths and another he is talented in sport. Afraid DH & I laughed at the second because he didn't win a race on sports day. (He doesn't know about the letters or such labels.) The letters say based on top 10% nationally. He gets differentiated work in maths lessons.

Iamnotminterested Thu 13-Dec-12 20:29:30

Gifted at phonics?? Oh, for fucks sake!!! What next, gifted at sitting nicely? Talented at tidying up well?

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 20:55:58

I actually laughed at that post. Then laughed some more. She is on the G+T register for phonics, pointless as that may be grin I am not disillusioned about her giftedness though she has a very high IQ (highest recorded in the country for her age assessed by an ed psych) and made international news as one of them once in a generation children. I do agree that he labels are often pointless though

Iamnotminterested Thu 13-Dec-12 21:19:30

The thing is, noisy (pulls up a chair and draws on a reefer) so many parents think that there is some kind of national register somewhere, like the roll of company directors or list of practicing dental surgeons. The truth is, as I'm sure you'll know, that NO such 'list' exists, it's particular to each school and that years' cohort, and yes, I suppose if your DD was really quick at picking up phonics then an over-excitable TA might want to 'register' her on a 'register'.

<<sighs>> disclaimer here BTW, I do have kids who make the grade but still think that the whole thing is a nonsense.

webfizzystuff Thu 13-Dec-12 21:24:46

There used to be a list Iamnotminterested for secondary age - the top 5% nationally used to be invited to join NAGTY (national association of gifted and talented youth) which used to run summer schools for members and outreach events. The funding stopped though and it was all passed down to the individual schools.

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 21:30:53

That's interesting, noisy. How did you get her iq tested? Dd2's was pretty high, and she was identified in yr r after she was tested for something conpletely unrelated - but that sounds fascinating! How did you know? I know quite a few kids who taught themselves to read early and whatnot, so were ahead of the game well before school, but to speak with such certainty and have professional confirmation at such a young age is amazing!

How on earth did you get them to test so early? Is it just the highest registered at that age because noone else has managed to get their kids tested that early? So she might be more or less average in terms of gifted ness if she had been tested at the same age as everyone else? Or did she really exceed the ceilings on the test, and then go on to do all the additional testing etc? That's truly amazing. I haven't met a pre-schooler who tests close to 160 before! (Mine are bog standard mid 140s)

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 21:45:10

Ah, ok, if dd is Heidi Hankins, then it was through dh's work as he specialises in that area. Please get mnhq to delete if you don't want her name out there - but you might not want to do the brightest pre-schooler line if that's the case! 159 is pretty smart. [Grin] You must be very proud.

Did you guys teach her for the test if dh is an expert? (Genuinely curious - I know lots of kids who test in the 140s without ever having sat an iq test before, so it would stand to reason that if you had been taught what to do with the blocks and done pattern games etc, then you would score higher? It would also make sense that there is a genetic element, of course - having a parent who is presumably interested in gifted kids probably due to his own experiences is much more likely to have gifted kids... Same with the verbal stuff. I think there's a strong genetic element. If she got that score cold then it's fascinating. Did dh have a hard time stopping himself? grin I know mine would have, every time I went away I came back and dd1 could do something else. It was like a party trick!)

The phonics thing is hilarious though. I'm all for kids getting work differentiated appropriately, but why do school need to break it so far? It's interesting in itself.

Apols for hijack, op! Got distracted!

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 21:46:01

The health visitor referred her for testing age 3 after her 2 and half year check paid for by the NHS. She was closely monitored up to that point because she was speaking at conversational level by 7 months, reading by 18 months etc. She is still very much a small child in terms of her playing, interests and behind with her motor skills but her IQ is in the top 0.1% I doubt many people are tested at her age, and I wouldn't be surprised if she reached her peak and levelled out or was over taken, but I equally wouldn't be surprised if she continues on this steep learning curve

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 21:47:28

No that's not my DD

3b1g Thu 13-Dec-12 21:59:34

DS2 (Y6) is being catered for perfectly well in a mainstream, mixed ability state primary school.
He is currently working about 3-4 years ahead of age expectations in most subjects.
In science he has been doing KS3 work since Y4. He does the same topics as everyone else but in more depth. He has a secondary teacher for an hour a week, either 1-1 or 1-2.
In Maths there are three other children working at the same level (out of 90). They have a secondary maths teacher once a week to do KS3 topics with them and maths workshops about once a term.
His reading and spelling age are several years ahead of chronological age but there are enough other children like this that provision can be made in regular top set English lessons.

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 22:06:00

Ah, ok. So just on 99.9th centile then? Dd2 tested in that bracket, too. She didn't do the additional testing after top-out? (Dd2 was tested on the school age scales, as they knew she would top out the pre-school ones, so didn't bother with them).

How weird that they gave you all guff about brightest in UK, though. They must have been v proud. Good on the HV for bothering though - nursery were desperate to test Ds on his third birthday and the LA turned them down, as they said there was no such thing as gifted before yr r. Fascinating how much it differs from LA to LA. such a postcode lottery!

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 22:11:11

I agree about the postcode lottery. So many have said their LA doesn't recognise G+T as anything special. Here DD has a statement of educational needs. She has a half termly IEP, a 1-1 TA in a state school and the same level of support she would get if she tested at the bottom 0.1%. I guess we are just lucky to live here grin

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 22:18:11

If it's oxon, I want a refund. grin

Dd2 had a statement for yr r anyway, as she has cp, so they were already providing 1-1. It was just coincidental that this was in place, though. And of course we didn't know she had taught herself to read so early as she wasn't verbal until three, by which point she reading Virginia Woolf over my shoulder, lol. No idea how she did it, tbh.

They've all had Ieps for gifted in any case, so haven't 'missed out' on any labelling process iykwim, not that they've made a great deal of difference. Was just interested how it happened as I know in our circs the nursery were told to back off. It's the one thing I find v hard to reconcile about UK state ed. it's so much about luck and being in the right place at the right time. So many other equally gifted kids will be milling around in nurseries everywhere, and won't even get tested.

I can't imagine how you managed to hit on exactly the right place. I hope you realise how lucky you are! Do feel free to give others some tips - there are loads of kids in the same situation that would benefit from the attention your dd gets!!

(Not me, btw. We left the UK. And since doing so, have realised how truly appalling the system is for bright kids)

archilles Thu 13-Dec-12 22:27:19

Noisy toys you have previously named your dd.

Her IQ of 140 isn't >99.99 percentile it is 99.6 percentile. Small differences in numbers but huge difference in how a these children would present. A child with IQ of 140 occurs 1/261. So although probably the brightest at an average primary school I can't buy the highest ever tested in that age group. I cannot believe the nhs would pay for a edpsych to test at age three!

Still you are very lucky she gets the support she does.

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 22:32:14

Who said 140? I mentioned it earlier - Apols for any confusion, that was just me saying I know loads in the 140s in yr r, but assumed noisy toys dd was close to 160?

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 22:36:30

The NHS did pay for the assessment and she was referred by her health visitor. I have already said I can't see many people her age being tested. We were told she was the highest her age to be tested. Her report says 99.9 percentile. Apologies if there are discrepancies I haven't looked into it further than reading the report. Even if it is 99.6, 1 in 261 is still well within the top 5-10% that is recognised as G+T. And she does have a statement to help with her extra needs because of her IQ grin

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 22:40:22

At 140?
(Sorry, just trying to make sense in my head)
What was her FSIQ according to the test? (I assume she did the wenches,er pre-school one? Or did they use the 6+?)

Sorry, bit confused.

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 22:40:45

Ha. iPad hates wechsler. grin

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 22:42:33

It is 140 on the welcher test. That is the only test they would do at that age. I was told by the ed psych they don't use any other test until 10.5

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 22:43:40

(I sound like a nut. Sorry, I've had a state school turn my kids away, lol, as they couldn't offer appropriate differentiation, so I'm well versed in the vagaries of gifted ed.They didn't offer to statement though. grin I do have rather an unhealthy interest in how other families in similar circs manage)

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 22:45:52

Wechsler? The pre-school one?(WPPSI) Or the one for 6+? (WISC-IV I think?)

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 22:46:42

That is one of the benefits of the statement. When your child has a statement, you get given priority of a place that will best suit DCs needs. I haven't been turned away from any schools, but going to look around schools, some do make you very uncomfortable and make it clear you will be a burden on the school hmm

archilles Thu 13-Dec-12 22:47:26

Arf at wenches test, 140 is most definitely 99.6 not 99.9.

Huge difference. Most likely the highest tested at that age by that tester.

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 22:48:34

I'm guessing the pre school one as she was 3 when she was tested. I can dig out the reports to look into them if you are interested but she is nearly 5 now so this was 2 years ago and will take a day or so to find the reports

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 22:54:30

Oh, god, I know all about statements, like I said up thread dd2 is statemented because she has cerebral palsy. She also happens to be gifted, lol. (Yes, that made a few eyebrows raise in the playground).

I know I sound like a loon - but was it WPPSI or the WISC-IV? I'm not familiar with the WPPSI particularly. 140 on the WISC IV is lower than dd2 tested in yr r though, so am lolling at how much fun I could have had splashing the kid in the wheelchair all over the press. grin I wouldn't, obv. But it is kinda funny.

Was the statement applied for by nursery? (Am fascinated. When they wanted to get Ds tested at three, and were refused, they just ran him with the yr r kids as it was a foundation stage unit. Had l realised that people were testing kids and getting them statements at 140 it would have saved us one hell of a lot of angst over the intervening years...)

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 23:01:17

I don't know which one it was I will have a look tomorrow I will dig out the report grin I didn't realise it would be such a big news story. My dad knows someone who works at the local paper so it was ran as a local interest story. Within a day it was in the national news and we were offered media deals we couldn't turn down. I will probably get flamed for that but it gave DD a large trust fund she can have at 18 that I would never be able to provide for her and she loved every minute of the attention and filming. Most people even at her school don't know she was ever in the media because the story isn't a story anymore it's old. And I don't tell anyone at the school gate because having a bright child doesn't make you or them popular. Very few people in RL know she is any different to her peers

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 23:01:39

Oh, whenever, if you find them. I'm just blown away by how this happened for you, seemingly so easily, when there are kids all over the UK in exactly the same position who are being refused even to be tested, until they present with something else that is more problematic... I assume dd didn't have any behavioural or other difficulties associated with her ability? Or not associated?

(Ie, dd2 was only tested because of her cp. ds1 was only tested because of his ADHD/ aspergers type issues. Dd1 was tested when we moved to Canada because within a month they realised she qualified for the regional gifted programme on the basis of her grade work). No one would have offered to test otherwise - even ds1 where the nursery were begging the LA to do it! And obv I'm curious what the difference between ds1 and your dd is - how did she get tested so early, and why wouldn't they test him? If it's just postcode, it's truly mind boggling.)

(I'm over the sour grapes bit grin just left with fascinated and horrified in equal measure that so may kids in this position are being ignored, and others not! 'twas ever thus.)

archilles Thu 13-Dec-12 23:01:53

Surely it would be the wppsi at age three? That is very young to test by any standards.

Do the school require re testing at a later date?

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 23:06:19

No she doesn't present with any additional special needs. She struggles with socialising with people her age, but that's all. Her dad is ADHD and her uncle has aspergers and she doesn't present with any of them traits. I think it was purely luck of the draw being in the right place at the right time. I have a DD2 and she is completely 'normal'. Following what is expected for her age but nothing out of the ordinary

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 23:07:39

Oh, I understand re school. In yr r no one could compute that the poor kid in the wheelchair (head tilt, oh bless) was the one their kids were talking about in terms of 'x goes to mrs y's class to get books'. It took until the summer term before anyone was brave enough to ask me if it was true.

NaiceDude Thu 13-Dec-12 23:08:35

Can't be the only one who thought this was about Gin and Tonic.



<shuffles off>

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 23:27:06

Om actual g.

Forget what I said about sour grapes.

Trust fund?

Fecking hell. For a 140?

That is hilarious. I am gobsmacked. It just goes to show that folk will believe anything!! Dd2 has a higher iq and drools! <actually, she doesn't any more, lol, but she did at three.

Please tell me you are teaching that she is bog standard and nothing special, right? Because she is going to come up against some equally bright kids, and some far cleverer, and if she already has social difficulties, then you don't want them exacerbated by teaching her she is something different?... Lots of bright kids get to university and really struggle up against the really gifted, and I can see it would be really easy for dd to be in that position (so many reallys....) given the media excitement (about, well, nothing particularly! How weird!)

Man alive.

I am proper shocked. I expected her to be PG.

Good luck to you both, though. I mean fair play, if someone had offered me a trust fund for my three, I would have taken it. I would have gladly accepted one to one for each of them, as well, not just the one with the physical disability lol.

But how on earth can it be right that one child gets tested and lauded (for a reasonably common result) and the rest get denied everything?

That's not your fault, noisy. It's just well odd, and shows the utter nonsense of the media. And highlights the complete inadequacy of most UK state ed.

I'm not sure if I would be touting her as the highest iq in Britain at that age, though. Highest iq in Britain that informed the papers? Or highest iq in Britain that informed Mensa? I dunno how that tag came about, but it's really misleading.

Proper shocked, I am. The media is bonkers.

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 23:35:28

I don't make a big deal to her about her IQ. If anything I make more of a point to make her feel like a little girl. I buy her more toys and games, don't do any work above what she does at school, don't push her at all. Not one little bit. She is getting all she needs from school and she is happy at school. That's all I care about at this age. We live in a grammar school area so I'm not worried at all from now til 11+ I appreciate she was fortunate live where she does and have the opportunities she does. She is a member of Mensa, but it is a pointless membership as far as I can see they have done nothing but send her a shiny plaque grin

madwomanintheattic Thu 13-Dec-12 23:44:27

Oh, same here. Everyone assumes they have been hothoused to within an inch of their lives, but we've never even bothered to learn spellings. Didn't bother to join Mensa as it seemed pointless.

Tbh, we don't make a big deal out of their iq because it isn't a big deal. I might feel differently if they were PG, but in the 140s is too common to bother with, particularly. The only time I dredge it up is if someone is patronising dd2 because they assume she has a learning disability, in which case I do point out they way wide of the mark. I can honestly say that iq in the 140s doesn't feature at all in their lives, even in school... The only time I get into a discussion about gifted needs is if there is a difficulty in school for some reason (for example, because of the difficulties associated with being 2e, like two of mine.) I can honestly say that they aren't special at all, lol, purely because of their iq. grin

I still can't get over the statement. Which LA? (Pm if you prefer. As I said, we aren't even in the UK, but we lived in Hants, Oxon, Wilts, and Renfrew, and none of them were remotely interested in gifted)

Wallison Thu 13-Dec-12 23:55:16

I was told my son was gifted and talented in maths and science and every year they tell me that he still is, but they don't seem to be doing much about it. He does all kinds of stuff outside of school - for eg, at the beginning of yr 1 he set out to 'count in patterns' including the usual 12 but also 13, 14, 15 etc up to 20. He also, having seen it in a book, took it upon himself to memorise the periodic table. He can do all sorts of maths calculations in his head - multiplications and divisions of three and four figure numbers etc. and has been able to since he was 5 or so. When I ask him to explain how he does it, I don't really understand his explanation, tbh - he's got his own way of doing things and finds his way around with patterns. He sees colours when he thinks of numbers, and I think that helps.

But, as I say, the school don't seem to be doing that much. They have a 'gifted and talented' scheme for kids who are said to be g&t at sport and they get extra lessons and coaching and whatever but the rest of the g&t kids just get treated the same as everyone else, as far as I can see.

noisytoys Thu 13-Dec-12 23:55:36

PM'd you. I like the relative anonymity of MN if I write on here where I live it will out me wink

madwomanintheattic Fri 14-Dec-12 00:21:39

Ok. Ft 1-1, though? Stunned. Dd2 has a higher iq and cerebral palsy, and got half that. This postcode stuff is truly bizarre!

noisytoys Fri 14-Dec-12 05:41:46

10 hours 1-1. I think it's because she is in reception where the adult-child ratio is higher and she does some work in year 2 so they do it to make it legal. I would be surprised if she got it as she gets older

lapucelle Fri 14-Dec-12 10:13:54

My child tested in the high 150s on the Weschler WPPSI test aged 3 (admittedly not in the UK, she was tested by school to see if they could get extra funding for her). She was free reading in nursery in several languages (we are a multilingual household) and was many many years ahead in maths etc. I definitely wouldn't call her a once in a generation child, just one who is bright and was interested in reading, maths etc at a young age.

From discussions with our local authority she wouldn't be offered anything much in a local state school, certainly no 1-1 TA. I am truly astonished that a child would be offered 1-1 support just for lime level reading and year 2 maths in Reception - in our (private, UK) school such levels are certainly not that unusual.

ibizagirl Fri 14-Dec-12 13:07:00

Its all a load of rubbish in my opinion and dd has been on g&t since she was about 4 and she is now 13. Nothing happens to be honest. Nothing at all happened in primary and not a lot happens now. Like i said in a previous post, as dd is in set 1 for all her subjects, the whole class is regarded as gifted and talented even though they are not "officially" on g&t. I don't think the work is any different either. They may be chosen to go on a different school trip (as dd was) so only a few may get chosen. The last trip had 8 i think out of the whole year. As long as the child is doing well then what is the point of it?. She was also chosen again this year to light the christmas advent and that is about it but that was through hard work and wearing her uniform well (that is what the head said) and not being g&t.

Wallison Fri 14-Dec-12 13:19:15

That's been my experience too so far, ibizagirl. They just say 'He's gifted and talented' but that's pretty much it.

If I think about it, it does make me cross because they have brilliant schemes for helping kids that are less able, but kids that find the work too easy are just left to get bored.

ibizagirl Fri 14-Dec-12 13:33:02

Exactly Wallison. I think it is so unfair on more able children. Dd was left to her own devices at primary school and was getting bored. So she was told to help others when she had finished her work. She even taught one girl to read! There were groups for the less able too but nothing for dd. I was always asking for more challenging work for dd and i was told to look on the internet. Very helpful i'm sure. When i asked about it when dd started high school, the form tutor said that g&t didn't exist any more.

morethanpotatoprints Wed 02-Jan-13 23:42:31

I don't think my dd will be giving any of the high IQ dc here a run for their money as she is really not very bright.
However, she has shown an interest and talent for music from a very early age. Actually singing before talking. When we deregistered her from school they told me (merely in passing) that it was a shame they would lose a G&T dc from their register. No issues but had no idea of this fact until now.
One Friday afternoon the dc chose own subject and dd obviously did music and there was nobody else. She told me she was playing games with the music coordinator (y6 teacher) and she told her she was working at level 8. I checked this out against level descriptors and what she had covered and she had been assessed up to level 8 . This sort of level is clsssed exceptional for an 8 year old but useless now she is out of the system. Also hovering around beginner, gr3, 4 and 5 is nothing exceptional compared to the likes of a little girl in a recent comp who aged 5 had a distinction gr 5 piano.
However, when dd sings in public, something happens, audiences love her and she wins the competitions. People keep telling us and her (ahem.....) how good she is, what a talent she has, how her potential is great, how we must be so proud, what are OUR plans for her future, blar blar blar . We have no plans, dd is the one with the plans (world Diva domination) I think. She believes she was born to sing and tells us regularly. Now she could have heard this in a show, documentary or something or could be part of her culture, upbringing etc.

What is the use of a name on a register? What do grades and levels actually measure? Oh, and it must be good for you who have really clever, intelligent kids, too. I'm sure it shares a lot of challenges.

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