Mumsnet Talk

Maybe this should be in general Education, but it was the G&T person who instigated it, so...

Some of the children's poems, DD's included, were sent off to a company called Forward Press which advertises itself in schools. This was done without parental consent. The first we heard about it was when DD got a letter inviting us to buy a copy of the book, provided that we sign a copyright form for her poem's inclusion. They also sent a spurious certificate and some stickers.

Just wanted to warn everyone not to get involved with this. As a professional in the industry this kind of thing offends and worries me hugely - I am warning my students off this sort of outfit all the time.

They are a profit-making company, a borderline "vanity press". Your child's poem is not "published" if it gets into one of their shoddy "anthologies". They put in everything they are sent, and then market the book at an exorbitant £15.99 a copy for a poorly-produced paperback. Compare this with a normal paperback anthology on the high-street bookshelf - it's about twice the price.

You do not pay to get published, and you do not pay to "see your work in print". If you contribute to a book, you get a copy. One, at least. What Forward and others like them do is simply preying on parental pride and children's innocence.

If your school is approached by them, I strongly encourage you not to get involved.

Sounds awful, what a rip off. And I would imagine that the pressure to buy a copy is quite intense, and many families would find it very hard to afford.

Message withdrawn

I have heard about this happening in other schools - and there wasn't a G and T element. Do you thing it would be a good idea to post the warnin again in general education, just in case ther are parents who don't read posts in the G and T section?

Dd3's junior school selected 20 poems to appear in an anthology (Hertfordshire Young Laureates published by Young Writers). Naturally I snapped up 3 copies at a discount price of £10.99 each.

Yep - they saw me coming!

Oh, this happens everywhere, not just gifted & talented. To be vaguely fair, you do not have to buy a book for your child's poem to be included, but of course they are playing the emotional blackmail card and lots do pay up.

This even happens in secondary school, so it's not confined to parents of young children. Although my children did think they knew children whose poems hadn't 'been chosen' - I wasn't really convinced, I still think they take all submitted.

Vanity publishing all the way.

If for some reason any parent out there did want to buy a copy, for goodness sake make sure you club together with other parents - they always do some 'special' deal like buy 2 get one free, so if you clubbed together with 2 others at least you would only be ripped off to the tune of say £10-ish, rather than the full whack. Although I know parents who have bought lots of copies to give to grandparents...

I think the school gets a cut too, UQD- they did when DDs school did it anyway. It wasn't G & T, it was everyone write two poems, one is selected.
Like you, first we knew about it was when dd arrived home radiant, to say she was going to 'be in a book and so were all her friends.'

Yes, it is a rip off, yes parents are set up BUT worth the appalling price to see such pleasure in her work. I thought.

Yes, we had this last year. It is infuriating, but of course we had to buy the bloody thing. I didn't even protest to the school because the children were so pleased and I didn't want to look like a killjoy.

DDs school submitted poems for this a few years ago. The first the parents knew about it was when we received a letter in the post inviting us to order a copy of the book. Some parents created a real fuss about it and the school have not been involved since. I didn't buy the book,although many of DDs friends parents did.

IMO Primary School is one long parent-fleecing. At last parent's day we had to walk a gallery of child art to reach teacher's table which was equipped with jam jar of cash and sheet of red stickers to be stuck on purchased art as we exited. (Just to make sure that all unappreciated artists were thoroughly labelled for public viewing by lack of sticker.)
And every year we have had own-child-designed-mugs, teatowels, placemats, Christmas cards, calendars, all sent home by excited kids at very high prices. Not to mention the hideous school photos, class photos, sports photos, eco team photos...
And I won't even start on sponsoring.
So one book of poems v small beer in the grand scheme of things.

The whole of ds1's reception class was 'published' in this - and the skeleton poem they were given to fill in was crap, tbh.

"Young Writers"/"Young Laureates" are all part of Forward Press.

Does the school get a cut? I wasn't aware of that.

It still should not be encouraging this. It is not "worth it to see their pleasure at being published" - it isn't being published. Any more than appearing on one of those cheap-backdrop "sleigh ride" videos is "being on TV".

I've emailed the company and also written to the head teacher about it. Here's the text of my email, addressed to the person the letter came from. It may be slightly over-pompous, but that's how I was feeling....
------------------------------------------

Dear Ms X,
Thank you for your letter of 17th March concerning my daughter [name]'s poem, which you say has been chosen for inclusion in a collection 'representing the best of the pupils' work'. I would like to make you aware of one or two points and to raise some questions.

This work was entered by the school without the prior knowledge or consent of parents. Had I been aware of the exact nature of the 'collection' I would not have consented to my daughter's participation.

I am a professional writer, tutor and consultant with 15 years' experience. I have had nine books published by major and leading independent publishers, have had work in several anthologies and am represented by a leading London agent. I have been a member of the Society of Authors since 1994. I am teaching my daughter that the way the industry works is that I provide a service, in return for which I am paid. With this in mind, I would like to establish what rate of advance and/or royalty you anticipate paying my daughter for the use of her work in your collection.

At the start of my career I was published in small press magazines and anthologies who could not afford a royalty because of their being small, non-profit-making enterprises. This is entirely fair and understandable. Contributors were, in this case, rewarded with a complimentary copy or two of the magazine or anthology in which they appeared. If this is the nature of your enterprise, I would be happy for you to clarify this - although the tone and content of your letter lead me to think that you are a profit-making company. It is completely unacceptable to ask contributors (or an adult on their behalf) to pay to see their own work in print - this makes you a borderline 'vanity press', and the kind of organisation which I continually direct my writing students to mistrust.

Increasingly, writers are being expected to work for nothing - with the kudos of publication or publicity itself being presented as some kind of reward in itself, and one which allegedly means that they do not need to be paid. The Society of Authors strongly resists this attitude and encourages writers to insist on a fair fee at all times. You would do well to remember this.

It is, I feel, morally dubious that you are encouraging children to send their work to you to be anthologised and then emotionally blackmailing parents to pay for copies. It is a standard industry practice, endorsed by the Society of Authors' and the Writers' Guild, that all writers (of whatever age) should be given at least one complimentary copy of the work in which their writing appears. If the work is published for a profit (and at an exorbitant £15.99 per copy it cannot be anything but), the writer should expect several complimentary copies.

I do not believe that you are in the business of encouraging young writers at all, but simply that of making money. Furthermore I have seen anthologies produced by Forward Press before, and found them to be extremely shoddily produced with poor-quality paper and blurred ink, and obviously containing every piece of work which they were sent (thus removing any element of competition or editorial quality control).

The copyright form will not be signed unless these concerns are addressed to my satisfaction. In the meantime I will encourage my daughter to direct her energies towards genuine competitions and publications.

Yours sincerely etc.

I agree, UQD, but what are you supposed to say to your child when they want you to buy the bloody thing? No, I won't because your poem is rubbish and they are just in it for the money?

I explained to mine that they should pay her for her work and that if they weren't prepared to do that they aren't worth dealing with. To be fair she is 7 and so understands this a bit better than your average 4-year-old would.

Good letter, though.

You are right in principle UQD, I will admit, even though you misquoted me.

So now you had better get on to the long list of child exploiters in my last post. I suggest you start with the tea towels which are Very expensive.

Wait till you hit secondary school and get the ski trip letters!

I agree, although the tea towels, mugs, etc don't do anything beyond what they say they are going to.

One main reason I take issue with the poem anthologies is that that they are presented as "being published". If they are, then contributors should get a free copy, and/or royalties. And if they don't intend to do this, then they should admit it's not publishing and not mislead.

I think that a small amount of vanity publishing is not a bad idea, but I think schools and companies should be more honest.

Printing costs are far less than in the past. It would be possible for a school to pubish and bind a book at a much lower price. The school would get more money and the kids would not get ideas above themselves.

I know of schools who have done their own.

Not sure what you mean by "ideas above themselves", reallytired! That wasn't quite my angle. I think it's the parents who are being deluded - kids don't really know.

I actually don't think any vanity publishing is a good idea.

UQD, good for you! I too work in the publishing industry and have had a couple of books published, and as and when DS is old enough to have this sort of thing occur I will be telling him the same thing. I will also be writing to the school concerned to suggest that it would be a lot better to simply publish an anthology of the children's writings themselves (via something like Lulu.com) and include a cut for the school if they like ie present it as a bit of a fundraiser etc.
I hate vanity publishers and have often advised people to avoid them. Vanity publishers once cost me a relationship

You are quite right, UQD. It's the dishonesty that bothers me - if they were upfront and presented as 'pay £x to have a nice copy of Year 2's poems professionally bound and printed' that would be fair enough.

Mind you, I had to endure an hour long lecture from a distant American in-law yesterday on the novel-what-he-has-wrote-and-is-having-vanity-published. He very kindly offered to send us a copy... was worth it to see his face when, after 90 minutes, dh dropped into conversation what I do for a living, though.

I composed a letter to the head at the same time suggesting that very thing - although not via Lulu as I consider them to be a bit dodgy too!

Edam, I feel your pain - I teach aspiring novelists and have met a few who have gone down this route...

What irritates me is that vast swathes of the general public just don't see the problem. They don't see the difference.

I think writing is like teaching. Teachers often complain that every one thinks they know what happens in schools because we've all been pupils. Equally everyone believes they can write because they sat there in English and learnt c-a-t.

UQD: I have been contemplating doing an anthology (of my own) via Lulu - is the printing quality really rubbish? The Book Wot I Edited (and have flogged a few copies of to MNers) we had printed by the SHort Run Book COmpany who we were very pleased with: not sure if they are still going, but they are/were a printing firm who specialised in printing small numbers of books so it didn;t matter whether one was an aspiring publisher or just someone who wanted a nicely bound copy of his/her autobiography to give to the grandchildren.

One of my particular fury-triggers with farking vanity publishers is the way they state that 'Copies of your book will be sent to [the national library, have gone blank on the name]' as though that's some kind of coup for them. It's a legal requirement that every book ever published sends one copy to these places, no matter how crap the book, grrr...

Yes, they always list the five libraries to which everything published or "published" must legally be sent - British Library, The Bodleian, Trinity College Dublin, and, er, I've forgotten the two others...

Lulu - no idea really. From what I've read, I just think they seem a mixture of a printer and a vanity press. You pay for the book to be printed, don't you? And there are various options for covers and blurbs and so on. I still think anyone wanting to do this is best off getting a quote from a local printer.

UQD, the thing that appealed to me about Lulu is that you only print as many copies as you know you need/want (whereas with a local printer you've got to commit to ordering, say, 500 copies). So if you self-publish with Lulu you can get 10 copies printed (I am basing this on what I would be doing with such a book), pop them on your market stall, sell them, then get 10 more printed, etc - also, you can put the book up as a downloadable e-book, give the buyer the option of paying to download or paying to buy a printed copy, and it's down to you to market the book (whereas vanity publishers' bullshit is all about how they will do the selling when they won't/can't because very few bookshops will actually agree to stock stuff that is put out by vanity publishers).

You are probably right about Lulu, madamez. I haven't reserached it that extensively.

The thing that always puts me off it is that I've known people who have claimed they have "published" novels which then turn out to be Lulu, iUniverse or Publish America jobs, which annoys me intensely - it devalues the hard work by "proper" authors like me who have put the slog in to get agents and get published by major mainstream publishers!

So as long as people are under no illusions about what they are doing with it, I'm sure it's fine.

It's not just G&T. To be honest I bought a copy (several in fact) and my son was thrilled. I know it's vanity publishing but it seems a fairly harmless vanity.

I've seen Lulu books. They're okay but they don't look like real books.

And UD, it doesn't devalue your hard work if somebody wants to pay to publish their "A Short History of Churches in Little Mudbottom."

nfk, I did the same as you and completely agree with you!
I am a writer myself, and have had approx 30- 40 books 'published' (and paid for!) but I did not feel my work devalued by dds poem printed out in a real book with several of her classmates'. She was thrilled and proud, and so was I!
I would have objected if she had been expected to fill in blank words though, into a ready written format.

If you ask me being 'published' is at least 50% good luck, and if anyone wants to pay to have their work bound up in book form that is a more than reasonable desire. And why not? Well off people pay to have their gardens gardened, for instance, and do not expect to be reproached by those who toil over their own turf. I myself regularly have unnatural yellowish streaks added to my mousy hair and never wear a tee shirt saying 'This hair-do is entirely the result of cash and peroxide and in no way reflects the quality of my head'. Nor would I expect to be reproached by natural blondes saying I am undermining their good fortune.

I have nothing against self publishing: people are entitled to spend their money how they like. If the majority of books self-published are a load of old cock that a reputable publisher woudldn't bother with, that is still nobody's problem but that of the self-publisher. Vanity publishers are scum because they are greedy and dishonest, they tell the aspiring but useless writers their work is wonderful and people will be falling over themselves to buy it, charge an arm and a leg for badly-produced books which only sell a few copies to the authors friends and long-suffering families, and the author is left disappointed, broke and usually humiliated by the process.

I think the boundaries between proper publishers, vanity publishers and self publishing are being eroded. Partly because of things like Lulu, partly because of the possibility of ebooks.

I'm sure people are disappointed by the quality of much vanity publishing and perhaps left "disappointed, broke and usually humiliated." Others think "Here's my nice little book. I feel rather chuffed. It will make a good Christmas present for someone."

Does the school get money for submitting applications?

I think dds school made something on it nfk. YoungWriters put it together, well turned out little paperback, has stayed tightly bound these last four years, good quality paper.

I think ours was Young Writers too. I found it rather endearing to see his work and that of all his classmates in one volume. They'd obviously just had a lesson about similes because they were all about storms being like something.

Oh, and Barbarian, well done on having 30+ books published.

"boundaries between proper publishers, vanity publishers and self publishing are being eroded"

No, they're still very clear.

Proper publishers pay you to have your work published. Not much, but they do.

Self-publishing is where you do it all yourself.

Vanity publishing is paying some rip-off merchant an exorbitant amount of money for a worthless product.

With my students - maybe atypical examples, as they are all people who hope to wrote for money and in some cases have had stories or articles or nonfiction published already - I always compare it to plumbing. The plumber comes to your house and mends your pipes. You pay him. He does not pay you for the privilege of doing so. Writing is a "trade" like plumbing - although there are no formal qualifications (optional MAs and the like notwithstanding) you need a lot of professional experience to e taken seriously and writers should ask an honest fee for their services.

UnquietDad - get over yourself!!!

I'm an English teacher in a secondary school and the joy on these kids' faces when they get work published in these books is wonderful to see - and we get copies in school so the parents don't have to buy a copy if they don't want to.

The children who really benefit are those who are perhaps not particularly academically gifted and it gives them a lift to think that others' value their work.

Yes, your letter does sound pompous but I don't dispute your annoyance if this is the field you work in, and I don't have an issue with you teaching your daughter how it all really works. But please don't ruin the pleasure that many children get from this. Encourage schools to buy copies for their libraries if parents have an issue with the cost.

I personally would pay anything within reason for something with DS' work in it - especially if it encouraged him to write.

I don't appreciate being told to get over myself when I am protecting the interests of my industry and of my children. It is wrong to tell children that this is "being published", and all other writers in education I have spoken to are in agreement with me on this.

The message I got back from the company is reproduced here, for fairness. Apart from removing names it is produced word-for-word. There are pieces of jaw-dropping arrogance in it, which I don't have time to comment on now - I shall come back and do so later.

-------------------------------------------

Dear [my name]
Thank you for your email.

I can assure you that the process of selecting poems is a highly subjective one. Each editor ensures that at least one or more of the following criteria is met when evaluating a poem, although as you can appreciate individual editors may have different preferences where themes and styles are concerned, so to maintain a level of fairness we feel poems should:

Show confident use of grammar and vocabulary

Offer an imaginative or fresh insight into a subject

Explore feelings and opinions

Be of interest to readers

Attempt creativity in discussion and description.

We also take into consideration the ages of the young writers, it cannot be anticipated that the work of a seven-year-old will equate to that of a ten-year-old, and we do not expect accomplished works of poetry from children so young. Also we take into account any learning difficulties we are made aware of. We read every single entry that is submitted to us, which over the course of a year can be over 100,000. We do not put every poem received into a book and thousands of children’s poems are returned during the academic year.

We endeavour to include as many children where possible; it is not an elitist competition as we feel this applies unnecessary and unfair pressure on children so young. We hope to be able to offer a lot of children places in our anthologies, as 16 years’ experience editing primary school children’s poetry has taught us that they enjoy sharing their ideas and working together which very often leads to us receiving high numbers of poems based around the same themes and ideas. With this in mind we will not return any work on the basis that our acceptance figures may cause concern, as we would much rather justify our policies than go against our ethos of encouraging the reading, writing and enjoyment of poetry, that we have so often been told comes as a result of the children seeing their first works in print.

With regards to our book prices: the books are priced after taking in to account our overheads: editorial time, design time, free gifts and the actual cost of producing the book. The books we produce can contain anywhere between 100 to 300 pages of poems. The size depends on how many parents sign and return the permission form to us, so we are able to include the poems in the book. The book is a unique title, full of unknown children’s poetry, it usually contains their first published piece of work and has a personal value to the children published, as well as to their parents and school. The books are all ISBN registered, this means they have a barcode on the book so can be bought from a bookshop, such as Waterstones or online retailer such as Amazon.

Although all bookshops are aware of our titles very few stock them, therefore while the market for selling the books is so small, our books cost more to produce. If the book sold in its millions like a Harry Potter or a Jacqueline Wilson book, we could charge £5.99 for a book, as it would cost 2 or 3 pence to produce on that scale. The print run for the book [your daughter] has been accepted for is still to be confirmed, we can estimate at the average of 300 copies (of which many of these are free copies under the 3 for 2 offer and includes the complimentary copies for schools). We simply cannot afford to charge any less. This is also the reason why we cannot give free copies or pay all the children who are selected: it would financially ruin the company. However, we do give a free copy to every school who enters, so all the children involved have the chance to see their work. We will also award over £7,000 in prize money to pupils and schools. A national competition does take a while to judge, but the winners will start to be selected in approximately a year’s time. You do have to be in the final edition to be considered for a prize and winners are announced once they have been chosen.

Moving on to your concerns regarding our approach to encouraging parents to purchase our products, we do all we can to ensure that children can participate without any costs. We don’t charge entry fees, ordering isn’t a condition of publication, we provide free copies to all participating schools and we don’t use visual marketing for the book, such as flyers to avoid ‘I want one of those Mum’ situations. We appreciate parents feel under pressure to buy their child the latest toy or computer game, and pay for trips and clubs etc, and we feel we give them every opportunity to have their child included for the price of a stamp. We also address the letters to the parents so they have the choice whether to tell their child and whether to include them. I am sure you can agree we do not have an aggressive marketing campaign or hidden costs: you can purchase a book or not, if you don’t we’ll still include the poem if the consent form is signed. Finally all children published retain their own copyright, so they are free to have the work published elsewhere if they choose. In the Teacher Information, supplied with the competition pack to the schools it does clearly state that parents will be contacted by letter, asked to give permission and invited to order.

We do appreciate that parents may have questions upon receiving the letter, which is why in the correspondence we invite them to contact us directly with any questions or concerns. Our intention is never to upset or disappoint the children, neither to anger or frustrate the parents.

I hope this letter has answered your questions and eliminated your concerns. If you remain unsatisfied and do not wish [your daughter] to be included in the edition simply do not sign and return the permission form. A reminder form is automatically issued if there is no reply by a certain date, if you wish to have [your daughter]'s poem withdrawn now please let me know. (Please also provide your customer reference number, located on the orange copyright form.)

Yours sincerely etc.

Sorry have only read OP. Our dd came home with a similar letter, and I threw it in the bin, explaining to dd why I was doing so.

Resented being put under this kind of pressure, esp as dd was in primary school at the time and could have been upset by my refusal to take part.

I've read the letter from the company and don't see anything to get upset about. Their points seem reasonable to me.

If you have issues with this, do as they suggest, and refrain from signing the permission slip.

Oh I did this just recently It was a proud mummy moment for me.

Wheresthehamster. Same company. I restrained myself though and just bought the one copy at £15.99.

<DS's poem was really very good>

Don't worry, bago07, of course I won't be signing the permission slip.

But I feel that I have a duty to go a bit further than that.

I left it a few days (that answer from them came last week) and sent this today. It explains why I think their response is not reasonable.

------------------------------------------

Dear Ms X

Thank you for that response, which I found entertaining and also quite audacious in many respects.

Non-paying markets - like those small press magazines and anthologies in which I started out by being published - routinely offer contributors a gratis copy or two. It is considered a courtesy.

The only reason you do not do this is that you wouldn't make any money, because making money is your prime concern. Now, there's not actually anything wrong with that - it's the prime concern of all major publishers as well. But you should come out and admit it. (Two of my books have been published by small independents, and they were still able to pay me an advance. If they'd asked me to pay to see copies of my own book I'd have laughed at them.)

This is not publishing. If I want my daughter and her friends to see their work "in print", I can easily collect and edit them myself and have 500 copies produced by a local printer, then sell them for a fraction of the price you are asking. It would be equally prestigious and "exciting" - if not more so - for them to see their poems for free on a website, or read out at an "open mic" poetry event.

All professional publishing companies pay writers of whatever age for the use of their work. If you have been in this business for 16 years, you should be in a position to be paying writers by now - and if you can't, then I'd be very interested to know where all the profit is going!

You are trying to have your cake and eat it - to be a professional organisation with 16 years' experience on the one hand, and yet pleading poverty and short print runs as a reason for not paying writers on the other. There is simply no professional publisher recognised by the Society of Authors or the Publishers' Association who works like this.

I have been in touch with many schools in South Yorkshire through my network of contacts and urged them to advise parents to have nothing to do with this project.

I can confirm that I do not wish my daughter's poem to be included in the "collection".

My original message and your response have been forwarded to the Society of Authors and to NAWE. I'll also be sending a copy to expert anti-vanity-press campaigner Johnathan Clifford. I'm sure they will find them very interesting.

best wishes etc.

Good for you, UQD.

But they're not going to say Oh OK then and go out of business just because you don't like them. The question is, are they breaking the law? If not, should the law be changed?

It would be preferable if they asked permission before sending out the certificate and congratualtions letter. But of course that's their marketing ploy.

I regret being so gullible - now. But really, it's the cost of a large take-away pizza. Children will feel proud of their inclusion and perhaps it will ignite a passion for writing. My sister won a writing competition when she was young and she is now a proper author.

Isn't complaining about this from a professional point of view a bit like a £250 an hour lawyer complaining about a shorthold tenancy agreement being available as a Lawpack for £12.99 at the Post Office?

Of course they're not going to go out of business, but I would hope and imagine that I'm not the only informed parent they have targeted.

I've written to the head as well setting out my concerns, and I'll be contacting the Local Authority.

They are not breaking the law as far as I know. But they are misinforming people and misrepresenting what it means to be "published".

If you don't get any joy from the Head, I trust you'll go on to the Chair of the Governors. Good luck.

I was trying to do analogies myself - I tried roofing and plumbing and music, and none of them seemed quite right... Writing is an odd industry, with its own rules.

I would be cross if the school got a cut.

elastic - thanks for the tip, I think I'll copy it to her anyway.

UQD - I would have thought it's a whole chapter for your next book - a very informative and entertaining chapter too. So be sure to keep the correspondence with them going. How about you send them a letter saying their last letter was entered for a humourous fiction competition and won and could they just sign your enclosed copyright permission slip together with a cheque for £15.99. Oh and don't forget to list the libraries.

That's the trouble with people knowing you are a writer. They are always suggesting what you might write about next.

When I was small we belonged to the Puffin club, and regularly sent in things for competitions. My sister actually won one once, and got a certificate, her picture displayed at the annual event and in the magazine. She was very pleased. I think that's the sort of thing children should be encouraged to do. I often wonder why the Puffin club was disbanded. I t was great.

These pseudo selection deals are all a bit naff. Why can't the school put things together themselves? ds's last school production came with a little brochure with a pic of each of them and a few lines they had said about their character. It was fab, just photocopied and stapled, and we paid a few pounds for it. I don't mind some of the fundraising things, and to be fair we have always had advance warning, so I've been able to tell the children in advance that I won't be buying the card/photo or whatever. I do quite like the tea towels though (you can never have too many tea towels)

My daughter's poem was chosen for an anthology through nursery - she hadn't written the poem herself (she's only 3) - it was one where her words had been cut and pasted in by the nursery staff.

I did sign the permission slip - they can print 'her' poem if they want, but at £15.99 it was bloody obviously a cynical money-making excercise.

Well done, UQD.

From what I've heard Lulu is regarded as probably the best of the bunch.

I have heard bad things about Publish America (probably not applicable here) and iUniverse.

I am proud that my son's work has been chosen as is he.

He is not generally a creative child but the poem he produced is a sensitive piece of work.

Yes, it's expensive, but on the other hand it's quite nice to have Mother's Day presents for both Grannies sorted before Christmas and the book will have several of his classmates' work in and be a lovely souvenir of his final year at school!

The only thing I would say is that in future I would like the school to explain up front what the scheme involves and ask parents for permission to submit their children's poems.

Gawd, has this surfaced again??

Listen to me.

EVERY child's work gets "Chosen."

It's not a "lovely souvenir", it's a money-making scam. The people who run this have no idea how real publishing should work. They are absolutely brazen in the things they say (read thread for my correspondence with these people).

yep - thanks KNEW I was right LOL
yeah it resurfaced again!! (and now again!)
My dd is chuffed to bits, think I will see if anyone else does it, might do the 3 for 2 or just "lose" the form!

Aw, QOD, I got the letter today, too.
The thing is, DS has gone around saying "I'm rubbish at literacy" for 2 months. So I kind of want to buy it just to encourage him (believe me, we have tried everything else).

So I do agree with most of what UQD said, but I'm still tempted for DS's sake, just to encourage him that he is good at literacy (he is actually on the G+T list for literacy, too). Else I might just sign the forms but not buy the book; DS is likely to forget about it, anyway.

DH called it "blackmail publishing", btw!

DS2 has been 'published' in 2 of their books.

HE was so proud to be CHOSEN.... so we paid to get both books.
(me however...i was cynical!)

Now 3 months on...would you believe the nerve of FORWARD PRESS.... they have decided to include one of the poems in ANOTHER collection of poems...and guess what....offered we buy that book too!!!!!

Needless to say...we are NOT buying it!!!

Sorry - I know this was started ages ago, but I don't normally frequent this board.

I am a primary school teacher and submitted poems to this a couple of years ago (hangs head in shame but we didn't know at the time exactly what it entailed). But definitely not every childs poem was chosen - although it was probably more than half the class. And as others have said the absolute delight for the children when they get the letters. Even now pupils from several years below love reading the poetry book and looking for our ex-pupils and reading their poems.

We haven't don it since as we couldn't come to a consensus in the staffroom whether the benefits outweighed the negatives or vice versa. And I'm pretty sure the school don't receive any money (otherwise we'd defnitely be doing it every yera with every pupil!!!)

Just found this link.....

My sons school has just been duped into doing this and I have been duped into purchasing 2 books at £15.99 each with a 3 for 2 offer.

I certainly didn't realise that this was a scam until the school itself let us know what it was but too late by then. I'm not going to let my son know that everyone who was entered has won as I think that would crush him.

How dare this company play on childrens and parents emotions, I was so proud when the letter arrived that I cried! (I'm still hugely proud of my son though!)

I am so glad to find this thread. My preschool age DS came home with a letter explaining he's been "chosen" to be published. I was quite proud until I realised they wanted me to buy a book, which prompted me to do a little digging. Unquiet Dad, you've done me a great service by laying out the exact nature of this beast.

I cannot believe they've gone as far as sending me a copy of "his" poem, which it turns out is based on a standard formula so his only contribution has been to fill in some nouns here & there. How this qualifies as his "first poem" in anyone's mind mystifies me.

I will have a word with his preschool tomorrow, I think.

Call me cynical, but the first thing I thought of when my 8-year old daughter came home having won a prize was "did nobody else enter?", closely followed by "ah - vanity publishing".

The give-aways were the price, the "sending copies to the British Library" (yup, I already knew that was a legal requirement for anything with an ISBN number), and the fact that the story chosen to be "published" was clearly derivative rubbish by my daughter (sorry if you ever have to read this, L, but although you have often managed to be inventive and creative, this particular piece was drivel).

There is enough to cough up for these days, what with school photos and clubs, without feeling the need to pay for a book full of second-rate efforts by my daughter, her classmates and several dozen other primary school children we don't know.

I too was sooo proud, my eldest is really is very bright, we thought there was no end to his talents. Horrified to recieve cheap tat of a book with a billion kids poems in it, my son couldn't believe it when he saw even the stupid kids in his class had also 'won'. To be fair this may be great for the dumb kids but it is morbidly demoralising for the bright ones.

The bitter twist of it is son number2 says "why havent I won a writing competition?", the school no longer involve themselves with such rubbish.

I have a typed (on a typewriter) photocopied and stapled together anthology of poems 'selected' from entries by me and my classmates when I was tiny, It was put together by our school secretary and cost my parents 50p.... how times have changed!

My poem was -

Thunder crashes
Thunder bangs
Thunder makes a lot of noise.

pretty profound I think you'll agree

Message withdrawn

ditto pixie

Im proud to say that I bought a copy of the book which included my daughters poem. My daughter was so excited to see her own poem in a book, that paying for a copy was not an option if it made her happy. Forward Press do state that you do NOT have to buy a book if you do not wish to. I also think that the competitions Forward Press do for children are very educational and inspiring for all ages. All I can say is that if my daughter is happy then im happy.... whatever the cost

I agree with UQD 100%.

I think it's cheating the children to let them believe they produced something worth being published when/if they haven't. I don't like cheating my children, no matter how pleased they might look.

I am morally against this sort of thing and I would raise lots of concerns if our school chose to go down this route.

I would have no objections, on the other hand, if they were totally honest and said "we'll get the children to write some poems and pay for them to be printed".

I think kids deserve not to be lied to.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yep, it's that time of year again, we too this week had the usual your child out of 20,000 contributors has had his short story chosen to appear in the book which a copy will be kept at the British Library and you are entitled to purchase a copy at £15.99 or buy three for two blah blah blah and this on the day you wanted to strangle the little sod then read the letter and your initial reaction is WOW what a little poppet. Then telephoning aunts and uncles who are all extremely proud.

Still all that evaporated when he went to school the next day and found out that all but about two had received the very same cr*p.

I am quite annoyed that the school (secondary) has fallen for this and will see what they have to say at the parents evening this week.

Even he now realises it is all a con which if not illegal should be, and not only does it demoralise those who thought they had done something special it is also a kick in the nethers for those very few who are not chosen.

A totally exploitative (and possibly criminal) outfit

interesting reading below

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/mar/21/young-writers-competition?INTCMP=SRCH

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=522481&in_page_id=2

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=523946&in_page_id=2

http://www.theolivepress.es/news/2011/03/10/%e2%80%98i%e2%80%99m-innocent%e2%80%99-says-publisher-after-arrest-in-malaga/

http://www.roundtownnews.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27875&Itemid=9

Sadly this has gone one step further at my childrens school. My year2 child was sent home with a pro-forma entry form including space for name and address. her teacher then filled this in with my childs actual address and the letter came to my home meaning that the school has ignored the Data protection act. when we queried this with the head and our other worries she confirmed that she would investigate but that she backed the company 100%

It is very worrying that schools are taken in by this vanity publishing scam and release data to a private company without any parental consent. Raise it with the governors and show them the press coverage.

damn -just realised how old this thread is!!!

I was one of those anoying parents who spoilt everyone else's fun but when a letter arrived at our home address with our child's name on I was absolutely livid and school was incredibly nice to me

more resently I have complained about a charity shoot out competeion which was supposed to raise money for the school and action for children but the children 'won' prizes for getting different level of sponsorship -school isn't taking part next year......

I thought you guys might want to get my opinion.

I'm in secondary school (Year 10) and entered a couple of poems to competitions they had; they both got in, although others from my school didn't. It's a little disappointing to find out it was fake, but I don't mind that much, they were just for fun. I know my own ability, and although it's difficult to tell I think I'm pretty good-I've placed in poetry competitions at school, and gotten very good feedback on Fanfiction poetry. Of course, that's not a completely accurate estimation, but if you want an idea, I'll happily post one here.

Luckily, my parents would never have bought the book anyway ;) They didn't know it was a scam, but they just don't read poetry :D

What I'd do is, if my kid got submitted to this with a halfway decent poem and I found out it's a vanity publishing service, I'd take the poem and secretly post it on Fanfiction/Livejournal, collect a few good reviews, then tell them it was fake but show them the good feedback. It's a win-win-they know to be wary next time and they're sort of brought back down to earth, but they don't lose any confidence in their writing ability or disheartened.

Plus, Fanfiction and Livejournal communities are, in my experience, very supportive and constructive, especially towards younger writers. It's a good place to start your/your kid's writing journey, IMO-it definitely improved my writing

Happy writing, and merry Christmas!

Koriana x