Anti social but very bright? Help!

[avenanap]

Hiya all.
ds's 8, he behaves very well at home, he's caring, helpful, loving and considerate when there's only me and him, I'm a single mum and he does not have any brothers and sisters so we are very close but I've been told that he's very anti social at school. He's uncaring, insensitive and rude. I've watched him talk to my friend and he rolls his eyes and grits his teeth as if she's worthless and he can't be bothered to talk. He does not seem to care how his words or actions affect people or what they think of him but when I talk to him about this he understands and tells me that he forgets to be nice or he doesn't realise what he's said. He was hit in the face by another child a couple of weeks ago, it's almost as if he wants to push and push until people can take no more. He doesn't have many friends, people don't invite him to parties or to play, the parents moan behind my back about him, he's skipped a year because he's so bright, the head is unhappy but parents have threatened to remove their children from the school if he is moved into his own age class. I always take him out and he's quite well behaved but can be rude. He's just started a sports class at the weekend to help him to discipline himself, he knows when people are upset so I don't think he has aspergers, he was fine at nursery, he had alot of problems settling in to school when he was in reception and became depressed. I've seen a psychologist who's told me that he's bored but I'm not sure what I can do to help him with his social skills. He's very highly gifted.
Any advice is gratefully recieved.

[avenanap]

No suggestions at all?

[RosaIsRed]

I'm afraid I don't have any real advice, I'm only posting because I don't want you to think no one cares. It sounds like a very difficult situation for you and your DS. His apparent inability to read social situations does tend to suggest Asperger's might be a possibility. Has anyone discussed this with you at all or tried to help you with strategies to help your DS modify his behaviour? What does your DS say when you ask him why he behaves in certain ways? Does he have any insight into it himself?

[TheFallenMadonna]

It's a private school isn't it? Is there any access to Ed Psych services?

[avenanap]

Thankyou.
He's normally Ok when you point out when he's gone wrong and he does not repeat it, it's at school he has the problems. He dislikes the pe teacher becaused the pe teachers rude to him so he messes around, he argues with the teachers because he see's himself as an equal and does not like being spoken down to. The psychologist I have spoken to thinks he's just bored and very highly gifted. I have given him strategies, I give him challenges for school, sometimes to cheer 10 people up, sometimes to ask 10 people if they are having a nice day but I never know if he does this. He's nice to my neighbours and their children but he doesn't consider himself to be at fault when he does something wrong until you aks him how he thinks the other person feels. He rarely gets upset, even when he's told off. At school he tries to explain his actions but the teachers don't listen to him and just tell him off more. I've taught him not to answer back but he has no idea of the playgruond rules. When I talk to him about the problems he causes he does empathise but the problems keep happening, he says he deosn't realise he's being rude. He's so bright and answers so quickely I think there's not enough time for his brain to engage. I've tried teaching him to stop and count to ten before answering but he does not remember at school.

[avenanap]

TheFallenMadonna, yes, I'd have to go through the GP for this, the old head thought this was not necessary, new head thinks ds has a couple of traits of aspergers but he didn't think he warants this, he has a day at a secondary school next week, I've told them EVERYTHING, they think he's bored, she said it's common in highly gifted children. I can't wait until he moves there for some help for him though.

[ahundredtimes]

He needs help with his peer group though, now more than ever, before secondary really doesn't he?

[avenanap]

It's not a secondary, it's a 7-13. He can go back into his own age group when he moves.

[ahundredtimes]

I think you have to get a bit tough about it - whichever group he is with.

He needs help to make friends, to understand when to speak and when to shut up. He needs help to understand give and take. To see what friendship is all about. How to play in a team.

I can understand that he might be bored at school, or irritated by the annoying behaviour of 9 y-olds. They might make him awkward or unnerve him.

But I think you have to get down to basics with him again really. Don't focus on the clever stuff - that will be as it is. You need to re-draw the map. He needs to play in some teams - even if he hates it.

Someone linked me to a good book once called The Unwritten Rules of Friendship. Hang on, I'll see if I can find it.

[ahundredtimes]

Though actually you know, when you think he at least understands how it works, then if he choses to go off and read a book, then that's up to him.

I don't think it's easy.

But there's a difference between being anti-social and being rude and difficult isn't there.

[avenanap]

Yes. i had a meeting with the head at his current school and he was almost crying though, said he was really worried about ds's future, said he'd be either a mulit millionair or an absolute loner. He said he was anti-social, socially inept. I find it hard to understand what he's on about as I have never seen his behaviour, i've seen snippets of rudeness which he's been told off for but I've never seen him piss someone off so much they thump him or wind up parents to such an extent that they've threatened to move their children. I get reports back saying he can be violent, unruly, rude and obnoxious but I've never seen any of this.

[TheFallenMadonna]

How good is the school? They sound a bit helpless really. What are they doing to support him in this?

[ahundredtimes]

I think brutal honesty is good too. I think sometimes they need it spelt out because they think they're cleverer than the others - and even if they are, then it's irrelevant because that intelligence is not being employed in a helpful or kindly way.

What happens if you have children back for tea or out for the day?

[dippydeedoo]

i think this might be very common in talnted and gifted children theres a very clever boy in the same year as my ds1 he has since the age of 4 been a real pita know it all rude and just unpopular ds1 tolerates him and tries to let him be with his group bcos i instill in my children acceptance at all levels and thats the way i expect them to behave,he does come here and hes been a bit offhand here opening my cupboards and using unusually big words that he didnt know the meaning of for example in year 4 he said he was going to be a palaentologist i think and i said that sounds v interesting what do they do?>
i dunno he said ...so we looked it up and discussed it but i would hope my chidren wouldnt behave like that.
its a real shame because his mum excuses his behaviour using his intelligence hes been to loads of schools cos he gets bullied for being clever(she says)and i think he would benefit from sometimes being told exactly how his behaviour makes others feel which i do and i think he appreciates it more than being mollycoddled for example one day ds2 was in trouble at school we were waiting to see the teacher the child walks over says what u done to ds2 y are u seeing mrxxxx i said quite bluntly its not your business if you want a lift go wait in my car and the teacher was amazed that he just did it ...im not saying this is the case for your son just that intelligence isnt a pass in to social acceptance and some things you really have to work at,

maybe your ds is just at an age where he doesnt want company hes quite happy in his own skin?

[dippydeedoo]

ohhh i just re read your ds is only 8- im sure hes just going through a phase and if hs bored academically too it must seem a real toil to him.

[ahundredtimes]

Hmm. I'm of the mind that no child wants to be alone, no child wants to be unpopular. if you believe that, then you have to accept that he needs some help in clearing the paths.

And you do need to be a bit tough with it.

[avenanap]

They just keep telling him off. Apparantly they have given him a short lead, he's noticed that he gets into trouble for things that other children do and they get away with it. He's spent the last 3 years bored because they had no idea what level he's working at, a new teacher took over his class after christmas and has assessed him properly, he's 6 points under a level 5 in maths, over for science and english. I asked the head if ds could have a younger child to mentor so that he could have someone younger to look after, he said yes but this has not been done, ds doesn't have any responsible things to do, he's not included in out of school events because he's rude. I've sent letters to the head telling him how I discipline ds but these have been ignored, he's fine if you say what he's done any why it's wrong but they don't listen. He was supposto go and see a male teacher who was going to mentor him but that only happens when ds wants some chocolate and all he asks is how ds is. I can move him in september but he's got to manage between now and then. It's very sad I think.

[dippydeedoo]

by the way i sound mean but the boy is quite chatty and friendly with me i think its cos he knows what he can say and do and what he cant when hes with me.

[ahundredtimes]

Yes, it is sad.

But WHY is he rude at this out of school events do you think? What does he say? I mean WHY does he do it?

[ahundredtimes]

Does he not know how to behave?

[TheFallenMadonna]

See, I think you have all the professional just telling you he is bored and clever. And yes, he is clever and he may well be bored, but there are ways of managing this type of behaviour, and a school and a psychologist should be able to do a better job than they have managed so far IMO.

I think you need to get the school to write out an IBP. And stick to it.

[Scattybird]

Can I just say that it's a phase. They all go through them, but we, as Mums get worried about it.

Never before has the knowledge for Mums who worry about this stuff been more available.

You have probably read loads of stuff etc and yes of course you have to worry, but it really is a phase. Talking to a wise old woman (80)recently whilst worried about my DS put it all in perspective. She said, 'when mine were little we had all of this, but people didn't analyse things like they do now. The children were fine, it's a phase'. I do actually believe this. She also added that 'you haven't invented the wheel you know' - what could I say?

[avenanap]

He's fine with me, if he's interupting I tell him to stop and he does, I take no rubish from him, I'm always talking about feelings with his, we watched panorama tonight and he was telling me that the children think it's fun but it's not for the people involved, they must be really upset (was about children and gangs terrorising housing estates) so he does understand, it's just that he forgets it at school.

we regularly have a neighbours boy round for tea, they bicker a tiny bit but this is normal, 99% of the time they play very well, ds shares and is nice to him.

[ahundredtimes]

The thing is you could move him to the most academic school in the country, and he might be challenged and enjoy the work more. But if he doesn't know how to make friends, then he still won't know at the new school. If he doesn't know what is appropriate and inappropriate to say, he still won't I'm afraid.

[ahundredtimes]

Does he feel under threat when he's at school do you think? Is that why he's aggressive or disruptive or whatever?