ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
too early to push it?(42 Posts)
Hi, apologies if I'm repeating the substance of earlier posts - just would appreciate some advice. My five-year-old has just started Year 1; she didn't start properly reading (sounding out words) until the start of Reception so was not particularly an early reader though she has always been v articulate. During Reception she made quick progress and ended the school year reading Year 2 level books (PM Nelson series). Before the summer holidays, I was told by her (Reception) teacher that she was one of two in the year who are far ahead of the rest, though she is still not especially keen on reading. We read a lot at home (eg bedtime) but I don't ever make her read and she prefers artwork and running around, which is fine. Her school doesn't give any homework but I do the Bond books (age 5-6) and tests with her instead.
My concern is that she is under-stretched at school and I am not sure how much to intervene at this stage; I feel it might be too early. Her teacher seems very laid back. She said they'd be getting reading books two weeks into term, but we've only got a book this last week. The book she got was a very simple non-fiction book she wasn't interested in. This new (Year 1) teacher didn't know what had happened to last year's reading diaries (a record which I used to track progress and write down vocab). I emailed her, asking for levelled books, and my DD did bring one home this weekend, which was great. However, DD is still very resistant to going into school and one of the things she says is that 'the activities are short and I get bored'. I was told last year she was also very ahead in maths.
It seems from other posts that some schools have such a thing as a G&T coordinator. Do all schools have these, and do primary schools generally have a written policy on G&T (and can it be accessed easily)? How do children get put on a G&T register? I am concerned about the laid-back approach, combined with very poor communication from the school (there is virtually no opportunity to talk to the teacher except for a five-minute chat once a term). I am also wondering whether to look at switching her at 7 to an independent school, but am aware that some schools set exams at this stage, and don't want her to get behind for such tests.
Thanks for reading and for any thoughts you may have.
There's a lot going on in your post. Just as an aside - I think reading Y" books in Reception isn't "miles ahead" - offhand I think there were maybe 5 in ds's reception class that were doing the same. Usually in Y1 there is half a term of transition to more formal learning as opposed to the free flow of Foundation so i don't think you have anything to worry about. I would just carry on with the Bond papers needed to get her into the independent school you want her to go to.
Thanks. I didn't say that she was miles ahead; only that the teacher said she and another girl were far ahead of the others. I went in to do reading with the class last year and about half were at the first level or below, so I know this is true.
My concern is that, though they've identified these children are ahead, the activities at school at present may not keep them occupied and learning; hence my DD saying she is bored. Obviously it's early days yet. I am not set on an independent school - far from it - but I am concerned about whether there is sufficient differentiation, and if needs be would look at other schools.
I was just interested in the experiences of others with regard to accessing G&T policies, co-ordinators, registers, etc, and wondered whether I ought to attempt to get into this loop at this stage.
I would be very careful of "I'm bored" statements. At that age there is always something they can be learning, even if it down to presentation of work, speed, checking for silly mistakes etc. A lot of Y! activities will be in short bursts. precisely to avoid boredom & concentration issues.
The issue seems to be that the activities are short and not especially stimulating and for those who finish quickly there is nothing further to do. That's why I'm concerned. Perhaps they will move into a higher gear soon.
As teacher & parent I am fully aware that what a child reports & what actually happens can be quite different!
Your first port of call needs to be the teacher. Give it another week or so, then ask to meet her with some specific concerns ie reading books don't seem to be the right level and go from there.
I think you biggest task as a parent this school year is to switch your child on to wanting to read and reading for enjoyment. If you wait for it to happen, it is more likely to be from the other girl who reads than the class teacher. They pick up the motivation to read from home, because it is something they see everyone else doing.
Don't rely on the school for reading books. Read books and magazines (anything really) to your DD at every opportunity and make sure she sees you reading and using books for enjoyment every day. Eventually she will do the same and be happy to read as many books for her ability level as you can get your hands on. Until then, don't push her too much. She has a lot of other information to process besides the words on the page to be an independent reader. The school level books are really just a tool for the school to see how more able children are getting on, not a way for them to learn to read!
As for the extension work, perhaps it is a good idea to go into school to see if the class teacher can set more extension work. However, the more able children might have been given more work (or play) which was less directed and relied on the children themselves to be imaginative or to involve themselves with the activity (quiet reading in the book corner, group activity in the writing corner/ home/shop corner, construction toys, games or puzzles. It could just be that there were a number of activities for the class to take turns with (while the teacher concentrated with helping them with core subjects in small groups or individually) and your daughter didn't want to take part in some of the activities. If there are really no other activities and they are sitting with nothing to do at all after, say, a 5 minute class introduction and a 10 minute maths activity, and this happens every lesson/day, yes I would be a little concerned. My concern would not be that the children are not being stretched at least in the first half of year 1) but that my normally well behaved child would learn to misbehave to entertain themselves.
Go the library & get her books that you think are at her level.
Most public libraries have many early readers to choose from.
The amount of actual learning time at school is very small.
Most of school time is following rules, waiting in queues & socialising.
So if she's bored, she's bored of socialising, not academics.
I always ignored the books sent home from school, which were invariably boring. Just find books she likes and let her read those. If you have fun reading and playing with numbers at home, (and don't worry so much about vocabulary lists and tracking progress), I think she is very likely to sail ahead enjoying everything she is learning, as she sounds like a bright little girl.
It is far less trouble and more fun to come up with interesting books and activities for your own children than to get overworked school teachers to do the job.
I wouldn't worry too much about exams at age 7 if you are outside London. DS recently did exams at age8 and the independent school set them based on what is covered in the national curriculum so tutoring is not necessary. The headteacher said just do one Bond book of VR & NVR and we took him at his word. DS has made the move and is not behind those who went to prep school (except he'd never touched a rugby ball!).
I have been pushing (or may I say supporting) my DD from earlier than 5 years old. In the earlier ages, I would try to make it a game. As she gets older and it gets more like proper works, which makes her less keen. She still does it every morning, but just about 15-20 minutes. I find it difficult to know how much work she should be doing. I think that is a question I would always wonder.
I grew up in Japan where all work hard (some incredibly so in UK standard), but teaching in all schools (really) is excellent with clear curriculums, plannning and textbooks. Communication between school and home is not a problem, as school provide very clear objectives, and children take all textbooks and notebooks home everyday.
Teaching at her state primary here in UK was really poor. Although she enjoyed going there, she was by the end of year 3 growing out of this small school and getting bored. I have now moved her to a private school where she seems to have renewed her interests in learning.
The private school my DD attends is not particulary accademic, more for round education, but yet there seems quite a few children who are ahead of what is expected of the age. Maybe it just so happened or maybe children in private education tends to do better as the school focus on the top end children rather than low end in state schools?
Thanks everyone - really helpful advice!
No herdream1 you are wrong. State schools do not "focus on the low end". What a horribly dismissive statement.
Hi AlienAttack. My experience is limited and I would love to know dirrerent stories from others. Would you share your experiences behind your comment?
At my DD's state primary, more help was given to the DSs trying to get to the average levels, rather than the DSs who are already above those levels.
It's not the same at all schools though
My ds2 state school obviously puts effort into helping DCs achieve the required level.
They put equally as much effort into supporting the DCs that are ahead, and helping them to move further.
I would think it would be incredibly difficult to assess a 5 year old as gifted and talented because although some may be slightly more advanced in reading etc, there isn't too much actual academic work in reception and it is only just the start of the school year.
5 is very young because they are all just getting used to school and the way it all works.
But, I am not a fan of gifted and talented unless we are talking about remarkable, outstanding talent, I don't think "better at reading" should be the criteria.
And I say that as a parent with 2 DCs on this "register"
Yes, they are bright and hardworking. I don't necessarily think that equals gifted.
Individual school are different, but at a national level, the floor thresholds used to judge schools clearly do affect the teaching. A while ago I knocked up a graph of KS2 results and it's essentially a normal distribution, a 'bell curve', but it's significantly distorted around level 4c i.e. suggests children drilled/boosted/dragged-screaming from level 3 to an 'average' SATs score.
Haven't tried it with recent data including L6 (which is slighty different given that it's pass/fail where pass is interpreted as a 6b), but with a maximum of 5a the graph is clipped at the top i.e. suggests that quite a few children could have done L6 work.
@TantrumsAndBalloons: "I would think it would be incredibly difficult to assess a 5 year old as gifted and talented"
I agree. Entertainingly DD's school sent a letter home in Y3 asking parents to say if they thought DC was gifted and/or talented in something. I'd have loved to have seen the responses ;) We passed on that but by-and-by school put her on for piano (courtesy of her peripatetic in-school piano teacher). I agree with the vanilla dictionary definition re. her having a some significant natural ability, a definite knack, but meh..
My DS was saying he was 'bored' and that there wasn't anything else to do... It turns out he was thinking 'this is easy and there's nothing else to do afterwards' so daydreaming, not getting down to it and not finishing accurately so wasn't getting given the 'extra thing' that was available had he actually knuckled down... He seems to have got the message now (two years on).
State schools do have a ceiling of level 6 being the highest level a child can reach at the end of KS2. There is no incentive for schools to teach above this as they are considered to have achieved the required two levels of progress, no matter what their starting level.
herdream1 thanks for your comments about your experiences. My DD's reception teacher could not have been clearer (at a one-to-one parent/teacher conference) in saying that the resource in the classroom was directed to those who might not meet the targets; hence there was no support (eg one-to-one time) for those who were ahead.
TantrumsAndBalloons You're right; the gifted and talented thing is not helpful. Bright is a less divisive word to use. I was assessed as G&T very early on in primary school, a long long time ago, and the definition shaped my perception of myself (and subsequent feelings that I hadn't lived up to the label).
Achievement wasn't my point; only that if the school (seemingly quite openly) does not make it a priority to stimulate those who can do the 'easier' stuff, what action should and can a parent take (without being labelled pushy)? I want my DD to have a good school experience, as I'm sure most people do.
@richmal: "There is no incentive for schools to teach above this [L6]"
Given that two years ago there was no incentive to teach above L5 I wouldn't complain too much. Meanwhile I think there's a disincentive: Read all about it here (a report for Dfe on 2012 L6 tests):
If you're in a hurry, just read the Findings, section 5 on page 16 and the skip to Secondary views on page 86. It's depressing and as my favourite primary teacher remarked: "I'm reluctant to teach it [L6] because they'll get very bored later when secondary will make them do it all over again".
@PiqueABoo. I had a quick look through. I had not realised level 6 was considered so rare, especially in maths. Where does that leave the child who is above this level? One of the reasons I now home educate is dd got tired of repeating maths. I'm hoping that if dd does GCSE before secondary it will not be open to questioning in the same way as a level. I can see the argument that reading does need a maturity of understanding, but not so maths.
Thanks for the link.
@richmal, "Where does that leave the child who is above this level?"
Out on a limb.
My DD is a 10yo, which means Y6 and secondary admissions. Having lightly quizzed a few secondary maths teachers they do seem fond of having them start at the beginning of the KS3 curriculum in Y7 regardless of primary levels. One of the comments I like on this from one of the more prominent educational bloggers re. the Ofsted 'most able' report:
"I’d suggest that OfSTED is correct in highlighting KS2-KS3 transition which is hardly a national success story; I hear this all the time. I’ve called it the Berlin Wall of our system and far too often, Y7s are babied and patronised instead of allowed to fly from the position they reached in Year 6. From Day One, some children are systematically under-challenged; they are not expected to work as hard as they could and their sights are set lower than they could be… in some schools. Maybe not yours"
Going back to the OP, I think you need to speak to the teacher, question the books she is given and what is available if she finishes more quickly than her classmates. Having said that, I agree with everyone else that there is lots that you can do at home with other books and the important things I take from your post is that she needs to develop a love of reading and a love of school - just my view of 2 things that encourage achievement. If those things aren't there yet, I'd spend my time encouraging that. Just as an aside, I think the reading levels which school expect are quite low - my DD at the start of Year 2 was off the scale (I think the scale goes up to age 11) but then the vast majority of her (female) classmates (state primary) were there or thereabouts too.
On the more general question of quality of teaching and whether there is an emphasis on the lower performing children in state school - this isn't true of all schools and you have to look at individual schools. Some schools (like my DCs school) is in a selective grammar school, so there is definitely an incentive to support more able pupils in order to get them through the examinations. But the support is there for the children at the other end of the scale - I think the quality of teaching is fab, and I doubt it would be any better in a private school. I think you need to look into the schools you're considering specifically - private doesn't always equal better in my view.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.