ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
Is private school the answer?(40 Posts)
I started a thread on this in the primary education section and have been given some food for thought.
ds2 is 5.9yrs and in one of three reception classes in a popular catholic school His teacher hasn't had much success engaging him and we end up in a cycle of meetings about his behaviour and her stressing that she is not allowed to vary the curriculum as it should be 80% play and his child led activities are not 80% play because he keeps going back to the classroom to do academic stuff and will sneak back to class if asked to play, no she can't extend him as he HAS to do 80% play and she needs to focus on the kids who are behind in his class, he is naughty etc.
That has not been our experience at home or that of his other teachers - tutor, flute teacher, martial arts teachers, out of school and holiday club workers, babysitters etc .He is coping with all his activities and asked to add guitar lessons and football classes to his activities. We are barely managing to get him to all the lessons and coping with the ABA therapies for his older brother.
DH, who has been overseeing all his activities and currently works 9:30 to 2:30 within a mile from home, has been promoted to a full time role over an hour away. We are wondering if moving him to a private school will provide him with the right environment and all the desired activities in one place. We may have to stop these activities altogether and this may increase his boredom and perceived behaviour problems at his current school. I suspect the solution to defining and finding what constitutes the right educational balance for him is somewhere in between but can't get my head round it.
The schools around her are fantastic for disabilities but not really for SEN. Most parents I have spoken to send their kids to privates schools in nearby areas with varying degrees of success. How do you know when a school is right for your child?
Hi, Finefatmama. I think I may have responded on the other thread, not sure.
I could be mistaken but I think even in Indie schools reception and part of y1 is mostly child led activity through play. If there seems to be a constant problem with his behaviour (according to school) it may be a good idea to move him. My ds2 many years ago was exactly the same, in a very good Catholic School. The problem imo is they expect children to all be the same like little soldiers in a box. Kids are all different but it seems some Catholic Schools don't share this same ethos. However, you could move him as we did ds2 and school still not work. Please don't leave him in school forever if it never seems to work. We did and listened to all schools call him naughty. At 17 he has finally had an Aspergers diagnosis. Please pm me if you like, will help if I can
Here is the other current thread from Primary Education, on which there are already many comments.
I link it here, because this version includes nothing of your DS's behavioural issues (all of which will be relevant in any decision to move school). I realise that copying comments from thread to thread is sometimes bad form, but I have done it anyhow as I think the parts you omit here are so very relevant, and would become more relevant in many independent schools (where troublesome pupils are "counselled out").
As noted above, private schools also now must follow EYFS. You can just as easily find a teacher in the independent sector who will point out your DS's achievements are not necessarily a sign of unusual cleverness, and that his behavioural difficulties are his major challenge in the classroom. And to put it bluntly, if it has got to this stage in the school year and he is winning the class bear for his first day with no misbehaviour, then there is a lot that needs to be tackled before he will have a happier time in the classroom.
What's next year's teacher like? Might it get better?
Private school is not necessarily the answer, no.
Year 1 is different, being KS1 rather than Early Years.
Why does he have a tutor at 5 though
Is your DH on board with the idea? As he'll be commuting and working longer hours for your DS to be doing the activities he's already doing.
Edith, I would like to add that having worked in challenging secondary schools and having an ASD child, I can categorically say that he isn't badly behaved - he is a curious, compliant 'please' and 'thank you' child who tries to attend to his brother personal care needs to help us out. I believe his behaviour issues mainly stem from a lack of proper stimulation on her part. He is not a problem child IMO although he is precocious and asks lots of questions. His classromm disruption (barring one incident which has not been repeated) is largely around asking questions and making observations.
His supposed playing rough with other kids I have accepted from his teacher but she has not once responded to my 'what does this behaviour look like so that I can address it properly?'. is it pushing them off playground equipment, No, is it biting, no, is it hair-pulling, no. I have assumed he's wrestling or pulling the kids towards his preferred game like he does at home with his brother and told him not to do it. He told us of a couple of occassions where he was spiderman and the other kid was the hulk and when he was demonstrating his martial arts moves (the school does not approve of martial arts and have told me so). I have asked her to keep alog for me anyway and she has provided no concrete examples.
The other teachers have no behaviour issues and his tutor thinks he's quiet. He will work his butt off for praise anyday and is hypersensitive when he feels he's being dismissed. His pre-school did not have that either and they worked really hard with him on socialising and engaging him. I have stickers, rewards, commendations and certificates from the others fgs. Why is the behaviour not generalised acoss other settings if he's the problem?
Soup Dragon, we were working with him at home and the teacher said we were doing it all wrong so we went for tuition with qualified teacher. He is unusually clever and we have a few assessments and an ed psych's report but that's besides the point and it hasn't done us any favours.
Since your DH's FT job is a done deal, then the right independent school might give DS2 the option of doing a lot more of his activities in/after school, thus addressing the logistics problem. That is certainly one of the attractions for me - my DC have a longer school day, but do a lot of stuff at school which I would otherwise end up organising outside school with associated logistical nightmares.
However, that doesn't mean that an independent will deal any differently with his issues with social interaction and behaviour. As others have said, they have to follow EYFS, may or may not have different attitudes to behaviour (but might well be more strict than current school), and may or may not have any real SN provision (a lot of independent schools will expect parents to pay private rates for any additional learning support / OT).
There is no more a "typical" independent school than there is a typical state school - you will just have to look at the schools in your area.
I didn't realise he would have a multiplicity of teachers in reception.
And the behaviour issues can be different in different settings (eg can he translate the self-discipline and standards he'll be learning in a martial arts class to other parts of his life?)
I think you do need to talk to the teacher again, warning her in advance (again) that you would find it helpful to know what behaviour is the problem in the classroom. Even incompetent, inexperienced teachers do not give a reward for a 'first day with no misbehaviour' lightly, and it does seem you still lack her proper account of what is going on.
must have been a typo although there are 90 kids in 3 reception classes
I think stealth has helped focus my mind better. That and walking the corridors after half term.
- We want him to have access to lots of activities without the logistical nightmare.
- He follows instructions without queston in martial arts, flute lessons and with his tutor which needs to be generalise across settings.
- So we need a school with the right range of activities and stimulation which can assess properly, give him the right social and emotional development opportunities and work with him as he is.
Can someone help translate that into what to look out for in a school? How does one probe social and emotional development activities in a school?
How 'unusually clever' is ds?
....we were working with him at home and the teacher said we were doing it all wrong so we went for tuition with qualified teacher....
Surely, rather than rush out to find a tutor for a 5 year old, you ask the teacher what you should be doing and work with the school, with the same aims. There are obviously several teachers in YR at the school - there must be a head of EY to talk to.
I'm also a bit about bad behaviour continuously being excused by boredom. Perhaps there is another reason for the bad behaviour. Ds is obviously having social problems - perhaps a club that is less prescribed would be a good idea so that he can mix with other children. (Tutor, martial arts, flute lessons are all 1:1 or instructional.)
we were working with him at home and the teacher said we were doing it all wrong so we went for tuition with qualified teacher
That worries me. Please tell me you are letting him just be a child too? It sounds like he has far too many rigid activities in his schedule. 5yos need fun not extra tuition and from what the teacher appears to say, your DS doesn't know how to play if he's choosing academic activities all the time.
I was going to make the same observation about the 1:1. However he needs to learn that he is not the only child in the class and be able to occupy himself without the need to distract others or become distracted. Does he go to play at others' houses or have friends around ? Not sure how your older son is and his impact on the household but maybe ds2 needs some relaxed social time with his peers rather than additional activities led by adults. You in turn are running yourselves ragged to get him there, so reinforcing that his "needs" are above everyone else's. It won't harm him to have a break form the music if needs be - if he enjoys it he can resume later on especially the flute since he won't be developed enough to make the most of it yet.
lots to think about.
We spend less time with him actually. He goes to an after school club 3 days a week and does these activities so that dh can have more time with his brother. We run an ABA program at home and are learning sign language for DS1. They were both harder to handle when they didn't have activities. Our nerves are less frayed now even though there's more to do.
You havent mentioned here though I think I recall from your earlier thread that your DS is one of the oldest in his year. At his age this will be having a massive influence. If I recall correctly the impact of this (September vs August birthday) continues until a pupil is around 15. It is very difficult at this stage to really say that your DS is very clever. At his age physical development and intellectual development do seem to be closely linked (from my layman's experience).
Before you go down the private school route IMO you really need to think about what you are wanting to achieve. It is a huge financial commitment and not one you can easily step back from in the years to come if your situation changes. Many schools are cutting back on the financial support they offer so IMO you shouldnt rely on that.
he is the oldest in his class. His advance was noted before the age of 2 by an ed psych as part of a study. On telling his nursery, they said they knew and he was already in the 3-5 room. last year his reading age was assessed as 8.3yrs and maths age was about 7.9yrs. That was before the tutoring began.
From all the feedback maybe what we need is an ed psych's assessment in the first instance?
Read both your threads and feel a bit that so many posters have jumped on the behavioural issues even though you have made it clear over and over again that he is only 'naughty' in his classroom with this teacher, not in any other setting. I am not playing down the bad behaviour but to me this is a child shouting for help because him and his teacher seem to be a match made in hell. I agree with those posters who said that there is no reason a bright child should have a ball in reception, working at their own pace and playing at the same time.
If a teacher had spoken to me about my child in such dismissive and sarcastic tones I would have moved him immediately. Too late now but if this is a three class intake, could he have moved to one of the other classes?
If I were you I'd find out who his Y1 teacher is going to be and ask for a meeting with him/her now to get a feel for their attitude. I would also investigate other schools including private.
Hope you find a good match for you ds. 5 is quite an early age to be frustrated and disillusioned with learning in a school environment!
In your situation then I would be looking at further assessment. Your younger son's family situation is obviously very different from many others. An assessment might help you to understand how this is affecting him and what you can do to support him.
Unless you are planning to home educate him (and you havent mentioned this so far) he will need to fit in within an educational system. While he follows 'the rules' in his various activities, these are all obviously fairly short bursts and I guess they are things he enjoys. At school he will have to follow 'the rules' (social and written) all the time whether he is enjoying school that day or not.
This is not necessarily something where simply throwing money at the situation will improve things. Private education is not a panacea.
'should not have a ball in reception'
I did comment on your other thread too, I do have some sympathy in your position as we too have a fairly bright DS. There are no social or behavioural issues with him and although they do not sound like particularly serious issues it is still unacceptable to just go back into class to do whatever he wants rather than following the instructions given to the rest of the school.
There is absolutely no need for a 5 year old to have an academic tutor and it was mentioned previously something about your DH not letting him watch tv (this thread or the other???).
I can't imagine how difficult things must be for you as it sounds like you are juggling all sorts - the bit of advice I was given regarding DS1 was to not push him further and further ahead academically but to expand his activities as you are doing like languages, music, sports. He is bound to be bored at school if you are paying for additional tutoring for him that is pushing him ahead by 2 or 3 years.
If you are unhappy with the school then you should move him but always remember it may not be any different else where - private or not. I really hope you find somewhere suitable as this situation can be very frustrating for the parents.
thanks accountant. I agree that we should cut back on the tutoring and finding other things to help. We are keen to remove him from the environment where he appeared to be actively ignored because dh is working with ds1 and I'm working late.
The tv thing is usually either his dad withholding tv as punishment or him taking a statement literarily "If you don't finish your food/ are not careful with that/asleep by the time I come upstairs, I won't allow you to watch tv till weekend".
AS possibility is now back on the agenda so we will go to ed psych
Having a DD with an IQ of 160+ it sounds like your DS is very bright wants to learn and is held back by a short sighted teacher. My DD has suffered from this short sightedness and is now happy in a private school with a scholarship. (DD is 6). My advice is go with your gut feelings. If the tutoring and outside classes are what makes him feel happy continue them(if you can manage them). Don't forget yourself and DH in the equation. Keeping everyone happy is what we mums do best.
I think the right indie school is the answer. We opted out of the state system for secondary, should have moved my son earlier. Lots of the boys at his school were a 'problem' to their primary educators,but this indie secondary knows how to handle bright, inquisitive, at time challenging boys!
Thanks for the response.
To paraphrase a previous au pair, you get carried away with these interesting engaging conversations with him and then he says something really silly like "look, I can move my nose" or "lets do the hockey kockey" and you are left confused and worried about him until you remember that you are dealing with a 4 year old (he was 4 at the time).
Have decided to visit a couple of indie schools to get a feel for the environment and put him in the right one especially as we are getting exhausted with having to co-ordinate all the activities ourselves. Will still get an ed psych's assessment to help inform our final choice of school.
I'm grateful to everyone for the support and input, and for challenging me to take a step back and re-evaluate my priorities.
had ed psych appointment and she suspects that he's a very very clever 98th percentile IQ kid with sensory issues and AS. He was a bit too literal with limited social context . Would benefit from smaller class sizes and some speech therapy to help with pragmatic language issues. School is still unsupportive as they are oversubscribed and there are many children waiting to take his place.
not sure where to go from here as indie schools probably don't want AS kids in their schools either . will binge on chocolate and wine in the meantime
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