Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any medical concerns we suggest you consult your GP.
vaccine yes or no??????(256 Posts)
Hi, i would like to know your opinions about vaccine please. I decide to dont let my 3 years old daughter have the vaccine and i was wondering if there are other mums that think the same as me
which vaccine are you talking about?
Very generally speaking the possible/rumoured side effects of any vaccine are far less serious/likely than the side effects of the disease itself.
its the MMR vaccine and to be honest i dont like any others at all, i read the side effects and i dont think that there are less serious, plus they dont tell us whats inside the vaccine and more
sits back and watches
Popcorn any one?
If she has three has she not already had her first dose of MMR?
What side effects are you concerned about?
Have you ever seen a child with measles, mumps or rubella? I am old enough to have, and they aren't nice diseases.
There is a vaccination topic, maybe you could read that?
You can get full ingredients lists of all vaccines - was there a specific ingredient you were worried about?
Do a search in children's health for LOTS of discussions about the MMR vaccine.
this isn't a real post. I smell a journalist rat....
Then there are all those children genuinely unable to have the injection ... Who rely on the 'herd immunity'
mon what exactly are the MMR side effects?
Because measles can cause death. How on earth is that "less serious" than something you think MMR can give you?
You may find you get more sympathy/understanding if you posted in the Vaccination topic, but not much.
Please feel free to link to the research that you've done.
fleshwound indeed. My DS is reliant on herd immunity. I understand sometimes there are good reasons not to vaccinate but threads like this really test my patience.
Yep, this will kick off.
Things never to discuss;
Cat indoor/outdoor debate.
people go and read the ingridients of the vaccine, alluminiom is a metal and not good for the bodies, other poison stuff, also even if you are vaccinate you can get the illnesses, i dont want people be rude i just want to know what people think about it, my daughter had the first mmr vaccine but i didnt know what was goin on
MMr doesn't have aluminium in, your every day food does and it is breastmilk and formula.
vaccine here some bedtime reading on the mmr vaccine
<buys a popcorn making machine>
If your daughter has no reaction to the first vaccine she is unlikely to have no reaction to the second.
The side effects of the diseases it protects against ate both common and serious.
produce in chick embryo cells,
produce in WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts (aborted human embryo tissue),
sorbitol, sodium phosphate, potassium phosphate, sucrose, hydrolysed gelatin, medium 199 with Hanks salt, MEM, monosodium L-glutamate, neomycin, phenol red, sodium bicarbonate, hydrochloric acid, sodium hydroxide
The IPV vaccine contain aluminium
ingredients from a very quick google search - I tried to find one that gave a ballanced list
that came from the leaflet that the nurse gave me when i asked what was inside the vaccine, so not a quick google search
Dihydrogen monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there.
Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.
· is also known as hydroxl acid, and is the major component of acid rain.
· contributes to the "greenhouse effect."
· may cause severe burns.
· contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
· accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
· may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
· has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.
Contamination is reaching epidemic proportions!
Quantities of dihydrogen monoxide have been found in almost every stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is global, and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice. DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage in the midwest, and recently California.
Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:
· as an industrial solvent and coolant.
· in nuclear power plants.
· in the production of styrofoam.
· as a fire retardant.
· in many forms of cruel animal research.
· in the distribution of pesticides.
· as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.
Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be done to stop them because this practice is still legal. The impact on wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it any longer!
The American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its "importance to the economic health of this nation." In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store large quantities for later use.
itsallgoingtobefine your point being?
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the OP's daughter is going to suffer forced withdrawal from this substance...
Measles, however, IS a killer.
everybody its free to think and make they oun decision and i respect that
My point being everything is chemical (dihydrogen monoxide =h2o=water), and every chemical has the potential to be harmful.
Vaccines may have lots of scary sounding ingredients, but they are in tiny amounts, and have been rigorously and scientifically tested, unlike most of the anti vaccine claims on the internet.
Given that most of us aren't experts in the field of vaccines I would rather trust my child's health to the National Health Service who make evidence based decisions, rather than some randoms on the internet...
Phew! Thank goodness! I mis-understood and thought you were saying the vaccine was dangerous.
I'm belligerent tonight so please excuse the rudeness in my tone.
Mumps is a very, very mild illness - most kids will show no symptoms and the vaccine is at best 60% effective.
Rubella - mild illness unless your pregnant - in which case vaccine around 12 - because it wears off.
Measles - the only child to have died from measles in the UK in recent years was a traveller child with other serious health problems.
Personally i went for the single measles vaccine and will go for rubella in future.
Aluminium is the new Mercury!
MMR has sodium bicarbonate and sucrose, thats........... er that's almost a cupcake. No don't give your daughter a cupcake.
And no tuna sandwiches either, they contain aluminium.
Human diploid cells are grown in labs. Two fetuses in the 1960s were used to extract the original cells which have and are still reproduced in labs. So not really fetal tissue.
Sim Mumps is mild if you have it as a child. It causes sterility in adult men (and I assume teenage boys)
Rubella is astoundingly dangerous for pregnant women and so, as responsible members of society we ensure all are vaccinated and girls have an additional booster at 12 to ensure it remains at bay.
Measles is very rare BECAUSE PEOPLE VACCINATE.
Pls do- years down the line in awful mess with dcs vaccinations (around time of fear of autism link) and under influence of
dangerously ignorant homeopathic expert friend we didnt vaccinate.
As poster said below there's a reason measles is so rare! And what has Bill Gates chosen to spend his billions on? Thankfully! Children's vaccinations...
Oh really. I do hope you're not for real because if you do genuinely hold these views that makes me and in equal measure.
The human tissue as you put it - this is a cell line, so tissue was extracted in the 60s and then has been cultures in a flask since then. Have a look on wiki or google how they work.
As for the list of ingredients, go to your bathroom and pick up a bottle of shampoo / soap / moisturiser and look at the ingredients. Lots of long scary sounding words? That's because scientists are precise. Just because something has a long name doesn't make it dangerous.
And finally, I have one of the conditions that was linked to MMR vaccine in that disaster of a study that has been discredited. Even if the link was true, which it isn't, then I would still vaccinate. Better to be alive, always.
4% of mumps cases lead to pancreatitis which subsequently can cause diabetes type 1. Other long term affects include deafness.
IOM vaccine adverse affects, evidence and causality
Lots of information here about the diseases and the vaccines and evidence for and against their side affects.
I had measles as a child. It affected my eyes. I'd like to be able to see properly, and not to have deteriorating eyesight. That's why I vaccinated my children. Oh and apart from my eyes, I ended up in hospital with measles.
as i sayd everyone is free to do what they think is best and thats what im doing...
we don't inject shampoo, soap, tuna or moisturiser directly into our thighs
Yes there are rare adverse effects to contracting measles mumps and rubella, there are also rare adverse effects to immunisation. The difference is that you can get compensation for vaccine adverse events. WHO
I live in Wales and currently there is an outbreak of measles in Port Talbot, 189 cases to date. The reason for this is parents mistakingly believing the vaccine to be dangerous, as a result nearly 200 children have been infected with measles. Statistically a number of those children will be left with permanent hearing and eyesight problems and a few will be hospitalised and fingers crossed none will die. Do you really think that this is a good state of affairs - I don't that's why my children have been vaccinated.
The point tallgiraffe was making is that some ingredients sound scary when they are simple every day chemicals that are all around us in our environment.
Op has fallen for "it sounds scary so it must be dangerous" and not bothered and doesn't even sound interested in finding out how those ingredients really affect us.
A not very bright one either hermione
Yes there are rare adverse effects to contracting measles mumps and rubella, there are also rare adverse effects to immunisation.
No, these diseases are now not as common thanks to immunisation. One estimate accounts 200million deaths worldwide in the last 150 years down to measles.Have a look at the US census here for numbers of cases in America over the last century.
Side effects are common. As is death.
Perhaps as a precurser to doing some research on the actual contents and chemical compounds of vaccines you get in touch with this organisation www.literacytrust.org.uk/adult_literacy That way you could ensure that your child is getting the best possible support and you might be in better position to make sense of what is a complex subject with reams of good and poor quality information available.
Tiny, tiny, tiny amounts - you'd have more of most of those ingredients just from eating cheap crap supermarket food.
you can catch the diseases when you are vaccinate, and yes you get most of the ingredients in food and thats why we should watch what we are eating too... and i bet that the case of measels in Wales affeted mostly who had been vaccinated, anyway people as i sayd your free to think and do what is best but accept other people opinions too
Medicine needs to be evidence-based not a matter of opinion though.
I am not anti vaccine
I do think that a lot of parents would like a bit more help in making the decision (and it is a big decision for some) than "do it or your child will suffer serious side effects from very nasty diseases". The problem with that argument is that most children recover perfectly well from measles mumps and rubella with no side effects at all in exactly the same way as most children have absolutely no problems with the vaccine. Adverse events are a tiny minority on both sides of the fence.
Many parents are very worried about environmental toxins too, that is why they go out of their way to find products (shampoo, deodorants, moisturisers and household cleaning products) that are free from potentially harmful ingredients. That is why they buy and grow organic food and don't eat food such as tuna. It is not possible to avoid toxins completely but it is possible to reduce them in many instances.
It is hard to make rational choices when there is obviously so much emotion on each side. OP you need to do as much research as possible but this is a volatile subject to start on MN.
Personally I need to know both sides before I make a choice and the more I'm told to just follow advice the more I'm inclined to dig my heals in. Take your time, nothing bad will happen if you delay the vaccine by a week or so while you do your research. Talk rationally to your GP, I got some very good, non biased, advice from mine.
I have made my choices in this regard- I made it based on the evidence I could find, discussions that I had and also knowing my children and what was best for them as indeviduals. I'm perfectly comfortable with the choices that I have made. Some would agree with me others would disagree, that's just the way things are.
yeah i agree that parents need help sometimes to make some decisions, i did also, i didn't have a clue before to what was going on, and thats why i wrote a topic about it ,to see if other people had the same opinion as me. We live in a strange world where we need to becareful because not everyone is good and we dont know whats going on. I didn't want to upset people i just like to make people understand that there are other options in life
OP you still haven't mentioned what side effects you are anxious about. You have just posted a list of ingredients.
In all honesty, if it was just your child that this involved, it wouldn't bother me. If you are happy for your child to risk these illnesses, that's fine with me. Incidentally, my earliest memory is from when I was 3 and had measles. I remember feeling absolutely terrible and I just had it normally and recovered fine, thank goodness.
But making a decision based on some Internet research which you have no idea about its reliability is frankly irresponsible. Especially when your own child's life and long-term health is at risk, as well as other people's who would love to be vaccinated but have to rely on herd immunity.
Do some proper research, please, and speak to properly qualified health professionals about your concerns.
im glad that there are other people out there who think differentely
Think differently to what exactly?
Actually, you should be glad that the rest of us do vaccinate our children as by doing so the level of herd immunity increases, so the number of cases in the population remain at a low level, therefore reducing the risk to your unvaccinated child.
Please do not make this decision based on scaremongering Internet sites but speak to your doctor.
i didn't make my decision looking in internet but talking to people who knows more than me, then i looked on the internet everywhere and at the end i made my decision. I also find out that in some cases the vaccine doesnt even work....
123 what percentage of mmr vaccines don't work?
I always astounded people come onto forums like this and have to ask random strangers to validate such monumental decisions as to whether to vaccinate a child or not. Why leave decisions on your children's health to complete strangers who at best may lack the credentials to adequately appraise the situation and worst may be barking mad, why is it not possible to reasonably decide the benefits/or not of vaccination yourself.
You are free to make any choice, you can doubt the conventional wisdom of an established medical practice and give in to ill conceived, unfounded predujices surrounding vaccination but at least have the courage of your own conviction rather than trying to ignite an already inflamed topic
to not vaccine the children....
I'm terrified of your attitude. It is selfish and ill informed.
I was born before MMR.
When my mum was pregnant with me she visited her cousin and played with cousin's toddler.
The following day the toddler was ill and the doctor confirmed rubella. My mum's cousin went into hysterics, not for her child but for my mum.
My mum had to have gamma globulin injections and just hope that her baby wouldn't be born deaf and blind.
We don't live in a world where a woman has to live for 7 months carrying a baby not knowing if it will be deaf and or blind. We don't live in a world where a woman will burst into tears and start shaking because her child may have caused an unborn child to become disabled.
People like you will put us back in that world.
If a child gets a bacterial infection you can cure them with antibiotics. The diseases we vaccinate again are mostly viruses. That means there is no cure. Your child is on their own. Their symptoms can be treated but it is up to the child's immune system to fight the disease.
Dr Sears tells those who don't vaccinate to keep stumm about it. That you shouldn't encourage others not to vaccinate because their child needs to be protected by herd immunity
Must break the hypocratic oath on so many levels
However it does make you wonder why if you decide to not vaccinate you would be pleased by others making the same decision.
If you don't vaccinate because you believe your dc immune system can't handle it then they sure as hell can't handle the onslaught of the real disease and need the protection of others.
If you don't vaccinate because you feel the disease is rare. Its now only rare because others vaccinate and if everyone made the decision then it wouldn't be rare anymore and you've shot yourself in the foot.
If you don't vaccinate because of the ingredients then you haven't done your homework properly or relying on quack websites.
What ever the reason trying to persuade others not vaccinate to validate your own reasons is very foolish.
i didn't make my decision looking in internet but talking to people who knows more than me
What qualifications did these people have? What qualified them to persuade you to make such a decision? I ask as between us, my husband and I have 5 medical / scientific degrees so feel fairly confident in our abilities to explain the science of why you should vaccinate.
Bruffin - that Dr Sears statement is really terrifying and shocking Can't believe he could say such a stupid thing, I agree it must break the oath.
If in the future your child is lying ill in hospital fighting for their life and you could have vaccinated your child against the very thing they are now affected by how will you feel? Don't assume it won't happen to your child - yes the risk is small that it will happen but the risks of giving the vaccines are smaller.
I have sat by my child in intensive care and prayed she would live. The infection she had couldn't be vaccinated for but you can bet your life I would be first in the queue for a vaccine if it ever became available. I am lucky, she is still here but ended up with life changing problems. Prior to this she was a normal healthy toddler with no reason to believe she would be the one in 100,000 that would be affected. Like I said, don't assume it won't be your child.
im not try to convince people to do anythink as i saiyd we are free to do what we think is best, and at the beginning to share your opinions and to see if there were other mums that not vax the kids, so people stop saiyng that im trying to convince others
You said it was good others thought the way you do.
You came on this board saying have you seen the ingredients in vaccines shock horror.
What was the point of you posting in the first place if it wasn't to warn others what dreadful things vaccines are.
You asked for peoples opinion then completely ignored them. Have you even bothered to read any of my links particularly the IOM one.
yes i said it was good to see that ther were other mums out there thinking the same as me ,wich means i am not the only one..... and i answer a question to someone asking me why so i said about the ingredients.... so i didn't post that in the first place infact my first question was if there were other mums thinking the same as me..... and also repeted that we are all free to make our decisions and it would be nice respect others that dont think like us
i read every think and i respect every one i didnt ignore anyone i just read your post i dont need to argue to people
I watched a documentary (Panorama or something similar) last year about three families who lived next door to one another. The house in the middle had a newborn baby, the houses on either side had older children whose parents had decided not to vaccinate at the height of the media-created hysteria about MMR. Both sets of older children caught measles and recovered; the baby, who was too young to have had the MMR jab and was entirely reliant on herd immunity, died aged 10 weeks.
In almost all things, I would say, do what's best for you: breast feeding v formula feeding, early weaning v later weaning, purees v blw, co-sleeping v cots, etc., etc. but when it comes to health, unless you are a fully trained medical professional who has subscriptions to medical journals and has read all the scientific data available, you need to trust that your doctor knows better than you.
My little girl is 9 months old. By not vaccinating, OP, you are putting her at risk and, I'm sorry for being so aggressive, but you are extremely irresponsible.
You said aluminium is a neurotoxin but don't seem to understand the only way that you get a big enough dose to cause problems is through chronic exposure.This is either through a long term drip or in some one who has kidney failure or through industrial exposure at work.
The tiny amount in a vaccine will not do any harm. Also the body deals with it very quickly and the majority excreted from the body within a day or so.
Yes, it is "nice" to respect other people's decisions.
However, my decision to vaccinate my DD has NO adverse effect on your family life. In fact, if you don't vaccinate, I'm helping to protect your child.
Your decision not to vaccinate your child leaves my DS more vulnerable to these diseases because he can't be vaccinated due to having no immune system and all that...
So excuse me if I don't "respect" your decision for which you have not given ANY reason beyond that vaccines have ingredients and you've spoken to some people.
If you refuse to read information that people are giving you, and you refuse to point us towards the basis of your research, how can we come to any other conclusion than that your decision is ill thought out and based on ignorance.
You have still not said what side effects you are anxious about.
i think that your daughter is more likely to catch the desise from other kids who had the vax... i don't consider myself irresponsible, but a loving ,caring mum who thinks that there is somethink dougy about vaccine and i try to make what i think is the best decision for my child
As I asked earlier, where are your figures for the number of children who HAVE been vaccinated who still catch the disease?
<feeling extremely ignored>
Ditto Trazzletoes. And also where is the evidence that my daughter is more likely to catch a disease from a child that has been vaccinated than one who hasn't?
Of the 196 us citizens that cought measles in the 2011 outbreak 166 were completely unvaccinated
So why do you think you are more likely to get measles from someone who is vaccinated.
"In the year ending April 30, 2012, a total of 17, 448 measles cases were repoted in the European Union and Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway, according to the European Surveillance System, a service of the ECDC. Vaccination status was known for 84 percent of the cases, of which 82 percent had never received the vaccine, 13 percent had received one dose, and 4 percent had received two or more doses. According to the report, the proportion of unvaccinated individuals was significant in all age groups, including 89 percent in those younger than age one, and around 50 percent in 25- to 29-year-olds."
in the leaflet that the doc gave me mentions that the mmr vax may not completely protect all persons who are vaccinate and other evidence are out there so go and find them.... i repete again we are all free to do what we think is best for our kids... and yes i beleve that who receve the vax can catch the disease especially from who hasn't been
we beleve differen thinks there are lots of thinks that they dont tell you out there.... but im glad that we are not all the same
Its not perfect but to pretend that is a bad thing is ridiculous. Those that get disease after vaccination do tend to get it mildly and less likely to pass it on.
The vaccines have done a very efficient job of reducing the risk.
123mon do you think you could possibly find the courtesy to answer the questions you are being asked
You claim to want to have a reasonable conversation yet ignore various posters who ask which side effects you are concerned about.
What thinks (sic) are we not told about? I, for one, would love to hear your conspiracy theories...
Its not perfect but to pretend that is a bad thing and we shouldn't vaccinate is ridiculous. Those that get disease after vaccination do tend to get it mildly and less likely to pass it on.
The vaccines have done a very efficient job of reducing the risk.
Ok, just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. If you follow this argument then no-one should use condoms because there is a tiny chance that you'll get pregnant while on them. The fact that if you don't use them your chances are much much higher you would be happy to ignore.
On a different note, your child has already had the MMR vaccination. So therefore can't have reacted to the ingredients or you'd have said so. So what can be the harm in giving the next one?
Only reason for even to bother answering op is hopefully others that may have been sucked in by the numerous quack websites out there, may realise that most of the scaremmongering on there is nonsense.
I am very glad all my children have had all the recommended vaccines.
and yes i beleve that who receve the vax can catch the disease especially from who hasn't been
Your own words.
You are completely contradicting yourself.
You have just said here that those who haven't been vaccinated are more likely to contract the disease!
None of us are saying that vaccinations are 100% perfect but I am stunned by your reasoning.
If I understand correctly, you are choosing not to vaccinate your child because if she IS vaccinated there's a small risk she may catch the disease, compared to a huge risk of catching it if you don't vaccinate?
(I can't comment on other reasons because you are still ignoring every single one of the questions I have asked on this thread)
Good to know everyone else can see me though <waves>
Op has two children one who is a lot older so presumably she didn't have any reactions either.
im only quoting from ufficial governement statistics and documents.... and to answer to REMEMBERINGMYPFES its not up to me to tell you what the thinks that not telling you are... my question was if there were other mums in this website thinking the same as me... im not here to tell people what to do, or explaing thinks to them i beleve in one way, you beleve the opposite fine by me.
<bangs head against brick wall>
What official statistics? Please link them. I think you'll find Bruffin's data are the official ones.
and to answer to REMEMBERINGMYPFES its not up to me to tell you what the thinks that not telling you are...
So there is nothing and you're just making it up on the spot to try and justify your ill thought out decision.
Well, that's, er, responsible of you.
#borednow. Why won't you answer the questions?!?
Others for the sensible info btw. I'm 18+4 with DC1 and fairly convinced we would vaccinate. This has helped solidify that decision - 123 feel free to say thanks, I'll also be helping to keep your DCs safe!
yes i sayd that i beleve that the ones not vacs are more likely to catch the diseas,and what im concerne about the vaxs is whats inside,and the side effects are joint pain and/or swelling (which could be transient or chronic), autism, allergic reactions, seizures (fits), inflammation of the brain (encephalitis) death. the docs has more complete list of side effects
I also beleve that my older daughter has been left with side effects of the vax (squint and eye side problems and learning difficulties) which i didn't know by then
im not making anythink up, as i sayd its not up to me to tell you what i know . I beleve in thinks different than yours, there is other people close to me who beleve same thinks. but i respect everybody opinion
But you believe things which are wrong and because of this you are putting your own and other people's children at risk. MMR does not cause autism. It never did. It was a health scare created by newspaper journalists with no scientific knowledge and one doctor who has since been widely discredited.
i dont think that what i beleve is wrong.... and how can you be so sure about the autism and also beleve that im not putting other children at risk
Arrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhh! Will you listen to yourself?? Thank god for the majority of sane, non conspiracy theory people in the world, who will keep your child safe when you won't.
how come thats if is so dangerous not to vax the doctor or nurses dotnt ask you why and tell you the risks?
Links to autism were totally and comprehensively disproven by medical experts based on conclusive evidence - its not a matter of a layman "knowing" or a matter of opinion. I'd rather trust a team of doctors than a bunch of quacks
with half a brain and no medical degree
i dont beleve that is true ans i also respect your beleve
Can you explain your theory as to why doctors and nurses - who presumably entered the medical profession to help people- are trying to hurt your child by giving them a vaccine which is going to harm them? Whats in it for them? Or are they all just under the hypnotic spell of an evil worldwide superpower that's trying to kill us all?
yes they trying to kill us by poison us.... anyway i dont really have to explain anythink to anyboby as i stick on my beleves and also respect others, im not here to convince people
Such an issue is one of science not belief.. If you are a medically qualified doctor or similar then fair enough, if not, trust those who are! They have the expertise and the clinical judgement.
and they can easily tell you what they want
Am speechless.. Waste of time debating at this level..
theres soo much going on in this world that i am speechless too....
123 but the people who you believe are presumably informing you from a fully qualified medical perspective with no benefit for themselves, yes?
Has it ever crossed your mind that Doctors might actually know what they're talking about? Jeez, I hope to God that you never find yourself in my position, terrified of the possibility of anyone sharing their child's germs with my DS in case it kills him. Having to rely on other parents at nursery to notify us if their child ever develops chickenpox ffs.
You don't even know how bloody lucky you are to be in a position to choose. And to place such little value on your child's life and future well-being.
Thank God the rest of us vaccinate so YOUR child is safe. Can we even have a thank you? I doubt it.
havnt read through but just having had measles and being very ill, I am so glad I got my kids vaccinated.
Awful awful disease.
I nearly died, possibly thanks to a parent not having vaccinated their child who passed it onto me.
measles was almost unheard of , now its on the increase becasue of selfish misinformed parents.
I hope no child has to suffer the way I did.
The conspiracists might be interested to know that in France, there was/is an exactly parallel paranoia about the polio vaccine (not to mention the conspiracy in Pakistan that has the polio vaccine labelled as a Western plot to make the population infertile) as there is about the MMR jab in the UK. For everyone despairing of the ignorance on here, you might help to remember that since logic did not provide the basis for their beliefs in the first place, it's nigh on impossible to logic someone out of that belief. Still depressing though....
Someone did thank me once for vaccinating my DC. I worked with her and she was anti-vaccination. She was happy, though, that her DC would be safe due to people like me aiding herd immunity. I've never been closer to nearly putting my fist through something
I want to ask 123mon why on gods good earth s/he thinks the medical profession is trying to kill us all through poisoning us. I feel, however, it's unlikely to be a measured response leading to open dialogue and sane discussion of fact. I am, therefore, going to switch off MN () and watch Dexter instead.
I wish you all well and Trazzle - I hope you manage keep your DS safe and are fortunate to be surrounded by people who do vaccinate x
Doomed doomed, we are all doomed....
What is the point of asking opinions when you have made up your own mind?
You keep on mentioning "belief". Belief should be about things like God, fairies and Father Christmas. Vaccination is about evidence based medicine, not really a matter of belief. There is no requirement for everyone to respect each other's beliefs. I am sure that you know plenty of people who know more than you, but that doesn't make them experts in vaccination. The experts in vaccination, whether epidemiologists or immunologists, seem to agree that vaccination is a good thing.
Aye, but they're just in it for the money, aren't they breathe?
Just out of interest, OP, you said you had your youngest child given the first dose of MMR because you didn't know about the possible side effects etc etc.
Yet you believe your eldest child had side effects and is a full 10 years older.
Once again you are completely inconsistent.
Sorry, my mistake Trazzletoes. Yes, yes they are all in it for the money and it is a giant conspiracy theory. I'm off to live in a third world country where they can't afford to vaccinate and it is normal for some of your children to die of preventable diseases, but at least the medical professionals can't reach you there.
as i sayd (again) its not up to me to tell you what i know and tell people what to do.... so good luck to all
Remembering I did pose that question just up there^ but the OP ignored it. I think maybe it's time to ignore.
I agree, but I just can't hide the thread!
OP, please answer our questions?
How did you not know about potential side effects when you claim your elder child had side effects?
Where is your proof that autism is a potential side effect?
Why do you think Drs are trying to hurt your family? What benefit could they possibly get from that?
All the other questions people have asked...
(Thank you Remembering I appreciate it)
If you have access to all this amazing knowledge, why wouldn't you share it?
i never thourght (10 years ago) that vaccine was dangerous i just trusted the sistem,so i never linked my daughter problems with the vaccine, i done my research in lots and lots places and the maggiority conferm that there is a connection between the vaccine and autism and my amazing knowledge that i know i share it with the people close to me, family and lots of other people that i know and the people whos share it with me. i was shocked too to find thinks that i know now...
I think you are confusing belief and knowledge.
I don't know why I'm still bothering as you obviously aren't listening to anything anyone else says. MMR does not cause autism as shown here by the world's most respected scientific review organisation.
I am sorry your oldest child has problems but these were not caused by vaccinations.
but how can you be so sure? i beleve that there is a link between the two, but other people don't, we can going on forever about it, but i know that there are lots of people that is thinking the same....
Look at this thread. Lots of posters have come up with the research to back up their opinion. You have said its all a big scary secret and im not going to tell you.
I realise that English is not your first language but that is no excuse for not being able to back up your beliefs.
what has it got to do that english is not my first language, i live in england for more than 20 years, im from europe and i dont have to back up anythink....
I didn't have my DC's vaccinated when they were babies as was feeling nervous about it, they seemed so small.
They are now 13 and 11.
I've been reconsidering recently, especially since reading a thread on here by a Mum of a child with suspected mumps.
Should I talk to my doc again about arranging a catch-up programme for them ?
Anyone else done this ?
THis thread is unbelievable. OP you obviously don't understand statistics. The medical profession always use scientifically backed medical evidence when weighing up risk factors for vaccination, medical treatment etc.
To put it simply if 95% of the population can be protected from a potentially fatal disease as opposed to say 50% of the population dying from it. Which option do you think the medical profession would chose?
Incidentally, I remember seeing people walking around with calipers on their legs because they contracted polio as a child. You don't see that nowadays.
Oh, and how do you think smallpox was eradicated?
I think regarding the idea of a link with autism maybe it's that MMR is given at an age when these concerns regarding children's interactions with others would begin to emerge ?
It can be so easy and natural to look for reasons for things and jump to conclusions about causal links where things are actually just happening in parallel.
Juggling I think talking to your GP would be a great starting point. They can talk you through any concerns you may have and what would be the best timescale to do it in.
123 there is literally NO evidence of a link between MMR and autism. I am really interested to know what you base your belief on.
I also struggle to believe you had no idea about potential risks of vaccination 10 years ago when it was all over the media yet now suddenly have this revelation.
If your daughter had no reaction to her first dose, why are you so convinced she will suddenly have a terrible reaction to her second dose?
You will never get people like 123mon to see reason over vaccination, they continue to hug that seed of doubt planted by irresponsible medics like Wakefield till it grows into a huge tree. Even when thousands of studies, disprove the original claim by this egocentric medical person they continue to cling to the doubt like a security blanket.
It almost becomes like a religion for them where logic, reason and evidence based medicine go out of the window to be replaced by superstisition and 'gut feelings' and 'intuition' that vaccines must do harm.
i do understand statistics thank you....as i sayd im not here to convince people to do thinks so why are you try to convince me? i respect your decisions so you should do the same.... i think one think, you think somethink else fine by me, but just because i think different than you doesn't mean im stupid or sic or more
Thanks for the encouragement and understanding Trazzle
Perhaps it could be done over the summer holidays, or perhaps starting in the June half-term ?
i don't listen to Wakefield, there are at lot of more docs in the world that are saiyng the vaccine are not good, as i repetely sayd we are free to beleve what we think is best so why don't accept that...
You know I was going to laugh at you all for arguing with someone who is clearly
thick as two short pl immune to logic, but there'll be more people reading than posting and I'm sure you'll have convinced some people on the fence. I therefore shake some pom poms for you.
i was asking if ther were other parents that didn't vax they kids, and see what other people opinion was... simple as that
im not thick or immune to logic or ignorant i just think different than you and im not the only one, also i respect people opinions and i am not rude to people even if they don't thinks the same as me
I think Op is Italian. There was a judgement in Italian which found in favour of an autism case. It is being appealed because basically the ruling used wakefield research as evidence and it basically said that we can't find any other reason so lets blame mmr.
But as I have ALREADY said, 123...
Us choosing to vaccinate our DCs helps YOUR child if you choose not to vaccinate.
Of course I am going to try my hardest to convince you to vaccinate because my DS has NO immune system. If he gets measles there is a very good chance he will die. It would be irresponsible of me to ignore the fact that you are making your decision on no apparent sensible basis (because your beliefs are all a big secret).
YOUR decision, that you want so much "respect" for COULD KILL MY CHILD. Do you understand that? I know you don't care whether he lives or dies, why should you? But it means pretty much EVERYTHING to me right now.
And you can't even have a sensible debate and provide evidence to back up your decision.
Why the hell would I not try to convince you that you are wrong?
I know I'm not going about it the right way, but I don't care.
and you are totally wrong bruffin.... and it doesn't matter where you come from, and i know lots of english people who they think the same
They may think that way but i have never come across anyone who thinks that way who hasn't relied on bad or misinterpretated research or quack doctors who sell single vaccines.
123 Why don't you talk to your GP about your concerns instead of posting on here and not listening to some of the excellent cases for vaccination, as nothing on here seem to convince you it is a good idea.
Incidentally, vaccinations don't cause squints, but measles and mumps can - read this
ok and i did, and just because we dont think like you it doesn't mean we are ignorants.... we all think different thinks in life....
i don't need to talk to my GP (anymore), and im not here to be convince as im not triyn to convince anyone else
I think more should be done to explain to people about herd immunity and how some children are unable to be vaccinated so really everyone else who can should be. Many parents, like me, are understandably nervous, especially when their babies are small and new, or with the probably irresponsible controversy over MMR.
But I think more nervous fence sitters could be persuaded with the right support and hand-holding and better education. Although a couple of people did spend time talking it over with me when DD was a baby, but I still felt confused and uncertain and decided against. I don't think I was in the right place to go forwards with it then, but I could now I think.
Sorry to any who are frustrated by my uncertainties and decisions. Of course we all want what we feel is best for our children, but we need to be helped (more than at present ?) to see the possible serious consequences for others too.
You're arguing your case very well from my point of view Trazzle !
Juggling At least you are being sensible about admitting your fears. You aren't being obstinate and convinced that you are right and everyone else is wrong. I am not medically qualified to make important decisions about my daughter's health so I talk to medical professionals when I want advice.
I was nervous about the MMR 12 years ago, but talked to my health visitor and GP before I went ahead. DD is up to date with her vaccinations and is absolutely fine. I had a wobble when she was due the HPV vaccine, so again, I spoke to the GP and the hospital consultant she is under (for something unrelated) and went ahead with it.
DD has had the HPV vaccine at school, so I have made a small start I guess.
(Neither of them have had any others as yet)
Bunbaker is absolutely correct in that the medical authorities like WHO made a decision about MMR based on what is best for the vast majority. MMR undoubtedly saves many lives. However, the possibility that be MMR MAY be a trigger for a very small subset of children [there could be a huge number of triggers, more research obviously needed] has been stifled in terms of research, because Wakefield messed it up, the media did massive scaremongering and the public were very scared, so the medical authorities put an end to any possibility of research - for the public good, they felt, because obviously, if loads of kids are not vaccinated against measles, there would be a huge increase in severe illness and deaths from measles [ and complications from the other two illnesses too].
Statistical research would not be very helpful in flagging up this very small possible subset. What it does show though is that MMR is safe for the vast majority.
123 you don't seem to know much about the vaccinations issue though, but if you have any concerns there are single vaccines available, that way you can get your child protected from what are not trivial illnesses, and circumvent the MMR worry, even though as I said, statistical research shows that it is safe for the majority, and the question of whether it can act as a trigger for a small subset of children is still very open-ended [as no research is being done on that matter] Obviously if we all stopped vaccinating there would be more deaths and severe illness from theses diseases.
However, regression is a recognised phenomena, in terms of a child developing normally and then regressing severely. It doesn't happen with all autism cases, but with a significant proportions. here No one knows why this happens and there may be a number of reasons, genetic predisposition, environmental triggers, more research is needed. What is not true however, is that parents just didn't notice before that their children lost all verbal, social and developmental skills. That is deeply unfair to those parents and just against the proven research.
<ducks under duvet>
I don't respect your opinion. It's once based on made up nonsense and puts other peoples lives at risk.
* it is one not It's once.
Juggling - no one is judging you, 12 years ago the media was still in its MMR frenzy and had yet to come round to the research showing there wasn't a link. You are certainly not alone in not having vaccinated your child. Your GP will definitely be able to advise the best way forward.
OP - you asked me how I could be sure there was no link. Because I read scientific research, like the cochrane review that I put for you to have a look at. You say there are lots of doctors who share your views. Please can you link to some of their research? You have been given lots to read by myself and others on here, you have not posted one thing to back up your viewpoint.
pofacedplot for your information i know about vaxs issues more than you think and i also know that there are single vacx....
ant TheSmallPrint i really don't care if you respect my opinion or not
sorry 123 but your posts don't back up that claim. Also not sure why you asked the question if you don't want anyone's opinions. Good luck with your decision.
tallgiraffe i read what you posted..... and i don't need to back up my viewpoints
pofacedplot i asked people opinions in the first place and i also respect that...but i didn't ask people to try to convince me or to be rude about it.... thank you and good luck to you too
Don't you think its very rude to ignore what other people are saying, dont have the courtesy to at least knowledge the research and not to give reasons why you don't agree with the research.And
You were the one who started this thread. People have taken the time to give you their opinion and you have ignored it.
Juggling don't worry. I'm sure you won't be the first person to go and ask about it. I don't think there's any reason why they wouldn't be able to start the vacc programme now - but your GP will be able to talk through it all with you <holds hand>
So 123, you came and started this thread so that people could come on and say "yes, I agree with you" and give you a pat on the back?
no breatheslowly i wasn't looking for people to say yes i agree with you and give me a path on the back, i did ask your opinions, i also not expected people to be rude, i dont want to convinse anybody, i also dont need to back up my views, i read all the links that you people posted and i also respect all your opinions....
I think you are mistaking frustration for rudeness. You do need to be able back up your opinion if you want anyone to take you seriously.
ok but i dont think i need to back up my opinions thou as i don't really mind if people take me seriously or not at the end of the day i don't know any of you i only ask your opinions which you gave me in one way or the other.
just because i dont think the same way of you doesnt mean im a bad person
So what was the point in starting the thread? You have made up your mind and don't care that others don't agree with you.
So you start a thread asking for our opinions. We give them to you in a well argued, rational way with scientific evidence for you to read and you choose to ignore it all and tell us we're wrong and you're right, but that you can't be bothered to post any evidence for your beliefs.
the point was to know your opinions... i don't have to agree with you and you dont have to agree with me
i never said that im right and you are wrong, i also read all your links... i only sayd that i dont think the same as you
123, I think you are deliberately missing the point. If your decision only affected you and your children, that would be the end of it, but it doesn't. People like Trazzle's son who can't have the vaccination and my daughter (and any other child under 1) who isn't old enough for it yet, rely on everyone else being immunised so they don't catch it.
You are not medically qualified and you are ignoring the advice of people who are, in favour of rumours and hearsay. How can you possibly expect anybody to respect your opinion? It is not based in fact but ignorance.
I think you got your answer. There are not that many on MN who think the same as you.
There are tonnes of other places to go to online to find people who think like you. Why waste any more time here on this topic?
im not ignoring the advised (as i read all your messagges) i just dont agree with it...
Jesus, you are ill informed and having read your posts I now need to go away and get my blood pressure to go down.
You may think you're doing something good for your own child, which is highly debatable, but to he'll with the consequences to others. Nice!
"i don't need to talk to my GP (anymore)"
Nothing you have written on here has convinced me, or anyone else for that matter, that you have even asked your GP for advice regarding vaccinations.
You asked for people's opinions and don't like what you hear. Maybe I am different from you but if I thought I was right and everyone else told me I was wrong I would at least look at the facts and check to see if maybe I was wrong. You are simply digging your feet in and the more everyone suggest you need to think again the more obstinate you become.
i never said that i don't like what i hear, infact i repetely sayd that i respect your opinions even if i don't agree with it. for your information i spoke with doctors about the vaxs, and also looked at the facts and still talking to different people about it .
the GP at the surgery told me the side effects of the vaxs and that it was up 2 me, other docs had been more honest about it and agree with my decisions (also they didnt vaxs they kids too), so at the end of the day some people says one think other people says other thinks and we choose who to trust more
123mon, I'm curious, have you done much research on the diseases the vaccines are meant to prevent?
Do you know what the mortality rate / risk of infection / possible complications and long term effects of catching the diseases are for example?
The possible side effects! If you look on a packet of paracetamol there are a list of possible side effects too. here are the list from the NHS. More rare than complications from catching the disease.
These doctors that were telling you that they agreed. Were they in the UK? If so, I'm sure the GMC would be very intersted to hear about them...
And you said you looked at the facts. What facts?
yes i looked at the all aspects of the diseases the side effects of the vaxs and the diseases and i decided that i dont want to vax my child
Worst case scenario from catching the diseases = death.
What possible vaccination side effect is worse than that?
some of the docs are in the uk and some others not, and i was talking the facts about the vaxs,
That's my point - what facts? Please tell us so we can understand your point of view.
Can I suggest that you talk to your NHS GP in the UK. I would be very surprised if you were given the advice not to vaccinate (assuming that there aren't any good medical reasons not to).
People on this thread have taken the time to answer your question thoroughly, I.e. to give their opinion and explain the evidence they have used to form their opinion. It would be a curtesy to do the same in return, and not a vague 'I have spoken to people and looked at facts' explanation.
Don't all the responses on here give you even the smallest vestiges of doubt?
i did talk to my GP in the uk, and as i sayd before i dont need to give you evidence especially because you did your recerches and made your mind up about the all situation, and i did the same i dont need to be convince you might be right or not but i made my decision
OK, so why did you bother posting on here if you are convinced everyone else is wrong?
i only asked your opinions, right or wrong, doesn make any differents. its good to have an opinion...
Right or wrong, it does make a difference, and not just to your children. It isn't always good to have a opinion, it can be ill-informed and dangerous to have some opinions.
so we just follow everybody else like sheeps and not have opinions?
Again as others have said depends what that opinion is based on.
The antivax crowd are usually more sheep like as they just repeat what they have read on some antivax website and don't look at the research behind.
I'm sorry I don't normally give opinions on the vaccine debate but after last month I feel I have to. My neighbour was doing homeopathic parenting and decided no vaccines. Her dd was 4 she contracted measles, my neighbour also hadn't been vaccinated she was 5 months pregnant. She miscarried and her dd developed a rare but fatal condition encephalitis. She lost both children due to not vaccinating. I know there are risks with vaccinations but the vaccines are ultimately worth it even with the minuet risk, as the illnesses they protect us from and there complications are far worse.
My neighbour is with her sister, I have no idea how to offer my sympathies as the pain she is in must be unbearable.
How dreadful OhMy
"so we just follow everybody else like sheeps and not have opinions"
No, most of us worry and then consult a medical professional and ask their advice, which is what I did. I then followed the advice and haven't lived to regret my decision, unlike OhMy's neighbour.
OhMy - That is a really awful story, I'm so sorry.
In answer to your question OP - Yes, yes, yes.
ohmy that's awful, I'm so sorry.
Ohmy- thats so sad & preventable. That initself is a very good reason why everyone should immunise!
Yes, yes and yes, always immunise!
How terribly sad Ohmy
I read an article she had given me from The Green Parent. I didn't agree with a single word, it was on the reasons NOT to vaccinate. I just thanked her for the article and shook my head at the thought of quite a big mainstream magazine printing such harmful advice.
I will always regret not challenging her over her opinions. I wish I had said something. This is why I'm giving my opinion now. I'm hoping it will help change someone's mind on vaccinations.
This thread makes me tired and angry in pretty much equal measure. 123 you are objectively wrong in your assessment that the risks of vaccinating are greater than the risks of the diseases these vaccinations protect against. Believing in the evils of vaccination is a 'first world' modern luxury. The only way you can have any chance of getting away with non-vaccination is by relying on the rest of us to vaccinate. Isn't rather hypocritical of you? To expect others to take the perceived risks that you will not countenance yourself? Were you to universalise your position, we would be in the midst of a public health disaster. You are also wrong in your assertion that somehow it is simply good to have an opinion. Not all opinions have equal moral/ethical/whatever worth. And choices should not be respected simply by virtue of being choices.
Obviously, I'm not talking about parents of those children who, for sound medical reasons, are unable to receive vaccinations. I am delighted that by vaccinating my own child, I am helping to provide protection to such children.
Very understandable how you feel OhMy but may have been very difficult to get her to change her mind x
That is absolutely awful to hear ohmy. I am just a bit confused, forgive me, I am not trying to question your account, but there have been no recorded deaths from acute measles in 2012 or 2013 as this document states In fact as far as I can see there have been no recorded deaths from acute measles since 1992 in the UK except for 2 children, one in 2006 and one in 2008, both of whom had congenital immunodeficiency, as the HPA notifications show here
All other deaths from measles since 1992 until 2008 have been from late effects from measles, from adults who contracted it pre the 80's, also set out in that document.
I am certainly not trying to belittle this awful disease, and certainly the lack of deaths are due to a successful vaccination programme, but I am confused about a death from acute measles in a child not being recorded.
ohmy that's terrible. I don't think you can blame yourself though. If she was so determined, I doubt you would have been able to change her mind.
I guess that people continue to take these unnecessary risks because, apparently like the OP, they assume it won't happen to them.
(After all, everyone knows that you're more likely to catch a disease if you have ALREADY been vaccinated, eh, OP?)
I see the report and I know the child had measles and I know later she had contracted encephalitis. I assumed the two must be linked, if I'm wrong then I apologise. I have no idea how reporting works but if the two were linked I'm guessing it would be reported.
But the illness has still devastated the family.
I think that report only goes up to 2008 and if you have a quick look around the website there's more information about 2008-12.
I haven't vaccinated ds2 and ds3 because of the way ds1 regressed into severe autism.
I have a science PhD, have read original research, have researched in the autism field, and have spoken to many researchers working on autism over the years. I can't really say I recognise myself in bruffin's description of 'anti-vaxers' (which is always a stupid title anyway - the majority of people I know who haven't vaccinated DID vaccinate older children - they weren't that anti-vaccine).
I have also, over the years spoken to more than one doctor (consultants on the whole, but the occasional GP) who suspect they have very occasionlly seen MMR triggered autism. One conversation was very recent actually. These doctors seem otherwise sane (as do the researchers I have spoken to at conferences). They just have to be very careful what they say in public. Which is a shame - or at least is an example of politics getting somewhat in the way of clinical care & research.
The best way to get latest figures is check the JCVI minutes - published quarterly. Any measles deaths would be mentioned there. Last time I looked they just referred to HPA figures. AFAIK the last acute measles death was in a teen with an underlying lung disorder which was the first death in 16 years.
Other deaths are related to SSPE but it's not always clear there whether SSPE can occasionally be MMR triggered. It's generally assumed to be wild type triggered but I'm not completely convinced by the data I've seen. (Not unconvinced either - just reserving judgement)
no luanmahi, the first report I linked to states that:
''So far in 2013, only the UK has reported outbreaks. In 2012, considerably fewer measles cases were reported in the EU than in
2011, primarily due to the dramatic decrease in the number of cases reported from France. There was no increase in the number
of cases during the peak transmission season from February to June and there have been very few outbreaks detected by
epidemic intelligence methods in 2012. There have been no measles-related deaths during the last 12 months, but seven cases
were complicated by acute measles encephalitis. The reduction in notified cases in 2012 indicates that the incidence at EU/EEA
level is back at the level before the 20102011 outbreaks, but does not signify a long-term downward trend in measles notifications''
Oh sorry pofaced is right - the 2006 death is the one I refer to, then 1 more.
I did scour the JCVI minutes for more recent reports but couldn't find anything - they just refer to the HPA (you can check measles figures for each region) and no mention of any deaths is made since the 2006/2008 ones. Of course there may be a recording error. I last checked a few months ago so I might be out of date.,
Sorry I stand corrected. I think I clicked through onto another page once I'd followed the link (the information was on reported cases rather than deaths).
The uptake rate for MMR is about 80-90% depending on where you are in the UK and is currently rising (probably because a recent increase in measles) that means that roughly 10-20% of parents choose not to vaccinate their children. You could have worked that out without posing the question on MN OP. I would guess that MN parents are representative of the general population so lets assume that about 10% have not vaccinate. Given that 90% of MNers are likely to disagree with you, OP, I think it would have been naive of you to expect to be given a smooth ride in this debate.
I do know parents who have chosen not to vaccinate their kids and they are extremely well educated and intelligent people who certainly did do their research. I respect their choices and will happily debate my choices with them. I would dispute the assumption that parents who choose not to vaccinate are relying on herd immunity to protect their children. The ones I know actively try to contract measles, mumps and rhubella when their children are young as this is the "safest" time for them to have it. They are responsible about spreading the diseases outside of non-vax circles though and keep quaranteen for responsible times, warning other parents that they are contagious.
I and my sibs were not vaccinated as children and we all had all the childhood diseases. We are all very healthy adults now with very healthy children of our own.
saintly I have no problem with you not vaccinating your DCs. You have explained your reasons and they seem sensible to me.
You have good reason to believe that vaccinating your DCs will harm them or at the very least adversely affect them.
The OP however seems to just be saying vaccination is evil but I won't tell you why because its all a secret conspiracy. Which is entirely different.
Hm yes but then people are also saying things like 'links to autism have been completely disproven' which isn't actually true either. Except in politicians heads. MMR has been shown to not be behind the vast rise in autism cases - but I don't think anyone has ever really suggested it is. (I'd certainly agree MMR is a very rare trigger, and that those who regressed from MMR may have been susceptible to other viruses etc). Autism isn't one thing anyway.
i never sayd that vaccination is evil.... people stop saiyn think that aren't true
Apologies OP. I mis-represented you.
Pleased you can see my posts now though
saintly as you've said, if MMR is a trigger for autism, it's very rare. OP's child has already had one dose with no adverse reaction. Out of interest, if she was going to have a reaction would it be once both doses are complete, or would it be more likely to become apparent after the first dose? I've always assumed any problems would probably come after the first dose...
Hm well there was some work on the double hit - so those affected by the first were affected again by the second. But there's a whole other controversy around that which would completely derail the thread!
It would be possible to have a reaction only after the second, but hard to tell really given regression officially doesn't happen. I have no idea about other reactions though.
Well mitochondrial disorders & autism are a whole other issue. I have discussed that with researchers/doctors as well. Ds1's neurologist offered us a muscle biopsy for him (we all agreed to hold off on that one). But that's a completely different issue than the autism/mmr/gut type we were talking about. Which again is different from the autism/immune system/unusual reaction to viruses including potentially attenuated viruses we have discussed. Autism not being one thing.
It's actually fairly new for mainstream medics to even accept the autism mt dysfunction suggestion. That was seen as bonkers a few years ago. I know because I tried to get a referral after attending a conference & realising ds1 had some of the symptoms. It was initially refused but i spoke to the researcher from the conference a was able to get a supporting letter from a paediatric neurologist at addenbrookes, this was followed by a change in ds1's community paed & he was given the referral (to our local NHS paediatric neurologist). When we saw the neurologist he was very clued up on it all - but at that time the community paediatricians certainly were not. Well his first one wasn't.
I'm not suggesting some big secret. Please stop portraying all people who choose not to vaccinate as paranoid. More I agree with what the neurologist, ds1's current paed and the geneticist have all said independently. 'You're ten to twenty years too early'. They have all said it is likely that routes to autism & possibly even clinical treatment are in their way to development - but we're not there yet. None of them seen particularly freaked out by the notion that sometimes vaccinations might trigger the regression.
I am pleased to see the idea that underlying mt disorders might have a role is becoming more mainstream. That's a huge shift in opinion. Perhaps it will lead to some UK payouts for those affected. (Even better, perhaps the concept of trying to identify susceptible children before vaccination will start to take hold - utterly insane though that idea might be )
The controversy to which I referred regarded two papers which were meant to be published together which unexpectedly weren't. The second paper dealt with the double hit. If you plough through the GMC hearing it's all in there (good luck with that - cba to go there). Nothing to do with mt dysfunction. Not a big silence, just little known, controversial and so highly political it's prob impossible to get to the truth. Also very out of date and the research involved a brand of MMR which was withdrawn anyway. So very much not worth going into, but relevant to the question asked.
It would be career suicide to do any research that looked into triggers for autism in those genetically predisposed [or any other genetic vulnerability like bowel issues] that may include MMR in that research, even if one acknowledged that such a trigger many only affect a very few. That is the flipside to WHO and other medical authorities having completely buried any possibility of MMR having issues for the sake of public health - ie, they made the decision, in their view, to prevent a measles epidemic which in terms of sheer numbers, would cause far more deaths and illness than a few possible autism cases triggered by MMR. I think what is unfortunate is that they treat the public like children [although I can kind of see why sometimes] incapable of understanding anything complex - MMR is either absolutely safe or absolutely evil, which is just not true for anything really. The way it has become very difficult to gain access to single vaccines is very wrong, as has the label on those doctors who do offer them as 'quacks'. Greater access to single vaccines would ensure those that are worried would be able to get their children protected - why on earth is that such a big deal?
from the gmc council
"Q Before I turn you to another page, I just wanted to complete things. As far as the
second paper, which you rejected, was concerned, did that come from the same research
A It did come from the same research group although I cannot recall, and I do not have a
record, of exactly what the authorship of that paper was. I do not recollect.
Q Can you help us as to its nature at all?
A From what I can remember, this was a laboratory study trying to identify what the
possible cause of the new syndrome was. From what I can remember, this was an attempt to
try to isolate a component of the MMR vaccine with this syndrome.
Q Without that paper, the paper with which we are concerned, the 11096 paper made only
the temporal link, is that correct, with the MMR vaccine?
A That is exactly right. Not only did it only make the temporal link but it was made very
clear in that paper that such a temporal link was not a proof of association, moreover that
there was no published evidence to support any association between the vaccine and the new
The second paper was a laboratory report that tried to connect mmr with the new syndrome it was rejected at peer review stage.
Gosh that's highly selective reporting bruffin. Two can play at that game. Thus making it all fairly pointless.
Q: Do you know why it was rejected
A: No I do not. It is interesting that the editorial that was published in the February Lancet which was highly critical of the clinical paper had as one of its main criticisms as the lack of evidence of chronic viral infection in the gut and the subsequent editorial in the BMJ made the same point. So what was missing from the equation/jigsaw was the confirmation of chronic virus infection in the gut which was there in a paper which was rejected.
Q: You told us that you have a positive review with respect to the first paper: did you give a positive review in respect to the second
A:Yes I did, because in work I had done previously myself in animals, in mice, to detect the presence of a virus in the gut, namely rotavirus I would use the same technique.... so I had faith in that technique....... The controls were there.... if there was a non-specific binding of the reagent to the gut why were they not binding to the children without autism? blah blah blah
Not selective at all. I suspect you thought nobody would have access to the gmc transcripts.
Just pointing out the claim you made about the rejected paper was nonsense and did not answer the question ie can you get the same reaction from the booster again.
You know very well that nobody has ever been able to replicate measles virus in the gut as well.
Well it is selective isn't it. As I've just posted a different selection giving a different response also from the GMC. Why would I assume no-one would have access to the GMC transcripts? I feel the GMC is fairly pointless as it has more to do with politics than science as I said above, but anyway.
You are correct though that I had forgotten the content of the second paper. I must have remembered the words double whammy from whenever I read the transcripts however long ago (I didn't re-read before my post above) and in my memory confused it with the other MMR discussion around 'double hits' which is a further regression after the second jab. I don't have time to find the original source (if there is one, it may have been a general discussion I had with various labs) but a quick google suggests that Michael Fitzpatrick has taken time to voice his disagreement with this and so you may be able to find an original source. I certainly have friends who describe a double hit effect and see no reason to doubt them. I know we are meant to assume all mothers are mistaken and couldn't recognise the timing of a regression if it danced around in front of them, but having been quite capable of observing a regression myself (and having had my account accepted by every doctor we've ever spoken to) I find it a little tricky to assume they're mistaken just because the regression happened to follow a jab. Twice.
Stephen Walker did find measles virus although it was never published. Hard to know why - you will say the science wasn't up to scratch, I will wonder whether it would even be possible to get such a paper through peer review - even if it was gold standard science. He may have decided after the response to his poster it wasn't worth it (see pofaced's post). Who knows. As regards the lack of replication, I could point out they examined different subgroups, you'll say that doesn't matter and round and round in circles we'll go.
I really wish there were absolute answers to all the above btw - my life was a lot simpler in the days when I vaccinated my child assuming there was only a very small chance of any adverse event, and the risk from the disease was definitely higher. I wouldn't particularly object to returning to those days. Unfortunately there are, for our family, still quite a lot of unanswered questions.
Its not selective because its in context and not edited or are you expecting me to quote the whole of Hortons evidence on mumsnet.
As for the walker paper. Its own authors don't have any confidence as it lacks control and blind trials. Its hardly independent of wakefield.either.
My point was that you were choosing a small quote from a huge body of evidence during which more than one view was expressed.
We're obviously never going to agree, we're coming at this with completely different interests. You presumably believe science operates pretty much independently of politics, whereas I believe certain politics influence work done and reported.
I'm interested in the risk to my children who are known to (statistically) have a high risk of developmental regression. You're looking at a population level. I believe (and have repeatedly stated) that the MMR is safe for the majority of children but am concerned about those who have underlying susceptibilities to regression. I don't believe enough (anything much at all) has been done to examine whether the MMR is safe for those children. You presumably don't believe a susceptible group exists. You clearly don't see individual reports from parents as being relevant. I'm very interested in why children I know had reactions to the MMR (including seizures and ending up in HDU or ICU). I'd like to see their parent's questions answered (although to be fair on the whole in the cases of severe reactions their clinicians have been supportive).
We're not even on the same page.
saintly can you help me understand what causes the pre-disposition to the regression? Apologies if it's covered in the posts but I can't see it. Is it when the vaccine is given while the child is already unwell? I can see how that would be problematic for their immune system and could cause complications.
I'm not trying to cause trouble or stir anything up, up just a 19wk PG mum expecting DC1 and trying to garner as much info as possible...
Remembering - that is the big question unfortunately. It is somewhat complicated by there being more than one known route to autism. I have had docs say they would like to see more work into identifying susceptible groups but I'm not sure it's the sort of work that could be done at the moment tbh
One has already been mentioned - an underlying mitochondrial disorder - I think most doctors now would agree you would need to be careful in those cases, but there isn't an easy way to test for that and the type of disorder involved doesn't really give obvious symptoms. You could probably find out more if you contact Kennedy Krieger in the States, I've always found them approachable & they work on this sort of thing.
Another time I personally would be careful would be if the mother has had a viral infection during very early pregnancy. There are a few promising models that have been investigating that & some (not all) include vaccinations as a potential later hit triggering regression in an already primed immune systwm. Unfortunately they tend not to publish that bit, so it's hard to know what current thinking on that is, although will happily discuss it in person or during conference papers. I doubt they'd go as far as advising not to vaccinate though (esp as in that model any virus is a risk).
In the Wakefield style regression with subsequent GI issues who knows, officially there's no such thing, although I do know gastroenterologists who have told parents with eg Crohns in the family to be careful. I don't believe there's evidence for that as such though.
Knowing more than one family where two children have regressed post MMR (with very extreme reactions) I'd be careful after one sibling reaction tbh. There's absolutely no evidence for that though obviously (although it is the sort of case where senior clinicians are usually sympathetic & would happily talk it through).
Am happy to give further info about our own personal decisions (which weren't really based on any of the above) if you PM me. In terms of ds1 - there is a lot with hindsight that I would have done differently but I'm not sure how many warning signs there were (some, but not many).
I dont need to quote anymore because it clearly says the second report you claimed to be hidden wasnt what you said it was. A lab report will not give the information you claim was in there.
This is not the first time that you have been caught out with misrepresenting information. You claim not to be antivax yet you never ever post anything positive.
Remebering if you are interested in the regression, the wakefield cases are easily accessible from the gmc transcripts i linked to above. It tells a very different story to "perfectly normal children regressing overnight" that some people assume it was.
Saintly you clearly have particular interest in the links because of your DS and have made choices for your other children based on that. But even you would have to admit that if everyone stopped vaccinating their children then the chances of a significant disease outbreak are high?
Remembering please vaccinate your child. And if you are seriously considering not, please speak to your GP in RL before making any decision.
I have already said I misremembered the content of the second paper - I last read the transcripts well over year ago. It wasn't purposeful misrepresentation. If people still want to follow up the issue of double hits I would suggest googling and following Michael Fitzpatrick's comments. He's refuted them, will presumably reference and he certainly won't be saying anything in support of Wakefield. But anyway you might find the original. As I already said the concern with that was (iirc) related mainly to a brand of MMR no longer used so isn't really relevant to decision making today anyway.
I'm not sure what you would define as never saying anything positive. I have repeatedly said that MMR is safe for the majority of children. Can't get much more positive than that.
There is apparently more than one route to regression. I do know perfectly normal children who regressed overnight and I know in some cases their paediatricians have implicated MMR. The children I know well in this group however do not have GI symptoms so wouldn't be part of the Wakefield group. I would never suggest these were a particularly large group of children (I know them because severe autism is a small world, if ds1 wasn't severely autistic I doubt I'd know any of them).
I actually don't think MMR is a particularly common trigger for regression (have said that repeatedly on here over the last 10 years as well), but that isn't the same as saying it never occurs and, well, living with severe autism, understanding first hand the effect the condition has on families and personally knowing children who did end up very poorly after the MMR, yes I am interested in what happened to them and why. Just as I am interested in cases of regression -that are not (as in the case of ds1) related to MMR. So shoot me. I never quite understand why my interest in what triggered regression makes people so angry.
Well yes of course there would be disease outbreaks if everyone stopped vaccinating. I have never claimed otherwise.
Don't worry, I'm intending on vaccinating but keen to understand if there are avoidable triggers (such as postponing if DC is poorly at the time etc) and generally having as much info as possible. The way I see it a 1:gazzilion chance of issue from jab is better odds than 1:far less of getting measles/mumps/rubella and the associated risks and complications. Just getting as much info as possible first
The only jab I'm really unsure about is Vit K at birth. Anyone?
My position is that I would like to see serious research undertaken to identify children who are at higher risk from vaccinations in advance - so that they could be given an altered schedule, different vaccinations or in extreme cases no vaccination at all. In other words I would like to see efforts made to make vaccination safer by individualising the programme and considering it at the individual level as much as the public health level. I fully support this type of research and would like to see a lot more funding directed towards it.
Yes it's an expensive way to potentially 'save' a small number of children, but imo worth it.
Oh cross posted. Remembering unless you had some particular reason to vaccinate within a particular time period I personally wouldn't vaccinate when my children were ill and I'd give them a few weeks after they were ill to recover (that is one thing I would definitely change re ds1 if we were to revisit his first 2 years).
The whole point about increasing the availability of single vaccines is PRECISELY so that anyone who is concerned can still protect their child, and other vulnerable children in society. The decision to make single vaccines as difficult as possible to gain access to is ostensibly one made apparently because parents are too stupid to make sure all the vaccines get given at the right times, but is really because it would mean the powers that be would be allowing a tiny glimmer of possibility that there were questions hanging over MMR.
Jimjams has repeatedly said that MMR is safe for the majority. MMR is blatantly obviously safe for the majority as proven by statistical analysis. There MAY be a small subset of children genetically presdisposed for whom MMR can act as a trigger. More research is needed and won't get done for political reasons [or for public health reasons, one could argue, because of the concern of more measles cases]
I think Vit K is ok Remembering. I mean we had to do it, [or did we do the drops, I think we did.] I remember looking into it and it seemed ok.
the information in this video is so revolutionary and puts the need for vaccination and a fear-based approach completely aside
Join the discussion
Please login first.