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Chemist tested me for diabetes - sent me to the Dr TODAY urgently...please come and talk to me...

(723 Posts)
MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 22-Jan-13 15:28:34

<Sorry, just got to the end and realised how long this is!!>

These are my questions

1: The reading the chemist got was 20 - can anyone tell me what this means (ie how 'serious' it is) and if they think it could be controlled and/or preferably gotten rid of through diet and exercise.

2: What will the Dr do today.

The rest is whittering background.

Also, I just wanted to say that I'll have to go in about an hour and wont be able to get back on line until tomorrow afternoon, but I haven't done a runner and will be grateful for any help/advice.

[I'm a regular - I've namechanged because I'm not sure yet if I want to tell anyone or not and I have a few RL friends on MN. It's not that I mind people knowing as such it's just that I don't want it to turn into A Big Deal]

I have been wondering for quite some time if I might have diabetes. A few things have made me wonder about it such as

- Excessive thirst (always having to have a bottle of water on me)

- Eyes a bit blurry at night (been blaming the overhead light and the small tv screen with tivo bright red background and only a problem at night and spending too much time looking at screens)

- Occasional 'shakes'

- I am overweight and struggle with feeling like my 'blood sugars' aren't right

...but what made me 'man up' to getting tested was that last week & yesterday I had a couple of episodes of light headedness/feeling faint when doing things such as changing a lightbulb, I had also been having them in the shower, but put that down to it being hot/steamy etc

I called the chemist about a year ago blush to see if they did the tests, but ended up not going <hence my name for this thread>

I also went to my Dr about 3-4 years ago with constant tiredness and no real reason for it.... he put it down to my weight (which although I'm overweight was not stopping me doing anything, being reasonably fit etc), he really wasn't interested in looking further. I haven't been back, but am and have been pretty much constantly tired since before then. I know I should have seen another Dr but it's hard when you are overweight and they don't seem interested in seeing past that and accept their might be something other excess weight causing the problem.

I wonder now how long I might have had it for and thus how much damage I might have done already to my body, especially my eyes, that's pretty scary.

I was already overweight, but I was pretty fit - then something quite lifechanging happened and I've put on more weight, stopped exercising and I am not unfit. I'm certainly not can't move off the couch unfit - I could still easily walk 4 miles, run for the bus (i'd be panting but I could do it and would recover pretty quickly) - but something else I've noticed (just yesterday I really 'thought' about it) is that I have been putting off doing stuff like walking places (now I take the car), running up the stairs (now only ever walk), kicking the ball about with the kids etc and I realised yesterday it's because when I do I feel awful - not just tired/worn out but light headed and a bit pukey - it's been a gradual thing.

I am totally committed to exercising - a minimum of 30 minutes every day without fail (have just been for an hours walk - about 3 miles) and to improving my diet (which I fully accept hasn't been great for a while, since this 'thing' happened and for a wee bit before then).

I'm not looking for any magic cure - I just want to know if I can get rid of the diabetes through diet and exercise.

Thank you if you made it this far - or even if you didn't wade through it all but can help.

purplewithred Tue 22-Jan-13 15:32:12

Calm down!

Did the chemist take a blood sugar test pricking your finger, and that's what come back at 20?

Littlebearlost Tue 22-Jan-13 15:33:29

Do you mind me asking how old you are?
20 is quite a high reading, it's quite a bit higher than borderline. It's not hospitalisation level or dangerous in the short term as long as you receive some insulin. I would guess at that level you may be looking at taking insulin rather than just diet controlled. Had you eaten anything very sweet or full of carbohydrate before hand?

Tee2072 Tue 22-Jan-13 15:34:13

Same question as purple. How did they come up with 20?

Littlebearlost Tue 22-Jan-13 15:36:13

I have been type 1 for 20 years. It was picked up very early for reasons I won't go into here and I was borderline for a whole and had tablets and diet control but my readings then were around 9-13.
A normal fasting sugar is 4-6ish I believe. They may repeat the test with a fasting sugar.

Littlebearlost Tue 22-Jan-13 15:36:39

A while, not a whole!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 22-Jan-13 15:42:10

PurpleWithRed - I'm not sure what I said that made you tell me to 'calm down'. I'm not panicking at all, I realise it's not cancer or anything 'serious' but I do know it can cause a lot of health issues, I'm just asking for some help/information as it's something I don't know anything about, at all. But thank you for replying smile Yes, the chemist did a form to check if I was 'eligible' to be tested, came out as 12 (largely - no pun intended) due to weight & waist measurement. She then did the prick test, twice. It came out at 20, then she said it was imperitive I got seen by my Doctor today or went into the hospital - she was worried, not me. She called my Doctor to make the appointment there and then.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 22-Jan-13 15:46:37

LittleBearLost - thank you for replying smile I'm 43. I had eaten, which is quite unusual for me, but I'd taken the car into the gargage and had to wait for it, so decided to have some breakfast & coffee at the cafe. I had 2 slices of white toast, tinned tomatoes and a small hash brown triangle (a wee one) and a latte.

Tee <waves>

RooneyMara Tue 22-Jan-13 15:51:13

Just wanted to say good luck and I hope you get some answers soon. I'm sorry I'm completely no use but could not read and run.

(I think Purple might have got the impression you were worried from the title, with capitals in it)

Tee2072 Tue 22-Jan-13 15:52:57

Did you wash your hands before she did the test?

20 is quite high and I would expect your GP to order a glucose tolerant test, which is where they take your fasting blood, have you drink either straight glucose or a sport drink, wait 2 hours and take it again.

Until something like that happens, no one can say if you're diabetic or what kind or what your treatment will be.

sazpops Tue 22-Jan-13 15:57:24

Hi, my husband was diagnosed with diabetes recently, so we're still finding out about it. I suggest you go to the Diabetes UK website at - they have a forum there and there will be lots of people there who will be able to help you. Don't panic! We're managing to keep DH's levels under control with diet at the moment (low carbing), though I think he was in the early stages when diagnosed.

mirry2 Tue 22-Jan-13 16:07:28

You may have type 2 diabetes. 20 is high but could be because you had just eaten. Wait until you have a glucose tolerance test, I have type 2, but I don't have any symptoms and I don't take medicine (I have resisted this since diagnosis and my glucose levels have remained 6-7 for the past 5 years).
I haven't told anybody because I don't want my friends monitoring my eating habits and deciding what I should and shouldn't eat.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 22-Jan-13 16:20:20

Rooney - Thanks smile Oh I see, maybe, they were more to denote the Pharmacists clear worry over it, I have never known one to actually try the local Drs (which isn't my Dr) to see if they could see me NOW, then when they said no, they were overbooked, to ring Dr to make an appointment for today (and you never get one for at least a week there - so she must have been very persuasive and inbetween all that tell me I'd need to go to the hospital straight away if my Dr couldn't see me today... I was like (in my head, not outloud of course) 'Errr OK - not really sure what the rush is as I seem to have potentially had this for quite some time, it's not like I've just had a heart attack or stroke in front of you hmm'. I was somewhat taken aback by her worrying.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 22-Jan-13 16:35:23

Tee - I didn't wash them, no, but she wiped them to make sure there wasn't any sugar on them, but there wouldn't have been anyway. What's the point in an appointment 'immediately' do you think, where they wont be able to do a fasting test?

Sazpops - Thanks for that, I hope your DH is able to control his through diet.

Mirry - That's why I don't want to tell anyone in RL really. I'm overweight, I'm vegetarian - I really don't need to add anything else into the mix, people judge enough anyway!! Can you tell me a little bit about what you have to do to 'control' it through diet & exercise and how you test your levels (you/dr/how often).

Thank you all and sorry, I have to go now - will be back tomorrow afternoon!

Tee2072 Tue 22-Jan-13 16:47:23

The chemist over reacted, IMH and unmedical opinion. If it's that high, it's been that high for awhile and another day isn't going to do much harm.

And it's not just sugar that can be on your skin. If I use the wrong kind of soap before I test? My glucose will be wrong!

MOSagain Tue 22-Jan-13 16:57:06

Agree not to worry.
Yes, you probably have diabetes. Given your age, it may be type 2 late onset diabetes which can be controlled by diet and medication (metformin tablets are common and the dosage depends on a number of things).
I was diagnosed last February with type 2 and started off on 2 a day and am now on 4 a day. Normal 'fasting' reading is 4 - 7 and I was about 16. I had to have several other tests as I was 'borderline' before I was diagnosed.

DD1 (aged 16) was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes in November. I had suspicions for a while after I saw how much she was drinking (common sypmtom/sign) It took a bit of pushing to get her tested but a few days later the results came back and the GP phoned me wanting her to go in the following morning for tests. I assumed it would be like when I was diagnosed, I had to have several tests at hospital, including the glucose tolerance test. However, they wanted to test her urine to test for keytones (which if high, can potentially be dangerous). The following morning, within minutes of taking the urine in a nurse had called us through and did a fingerprick blood test and then got a dr who called ahead to the hospital to say we were on our way. When we got there, DD was admitted and her sugars were 34 which is SERIOUSLY high.

She spent 2 days in hospital (longest two days of her life in a ward full of old people) but was finally discharged once her sugars were down. She has coped brilliantly and I'm so proud of her. She injects 4 times a day (before each meal and a slow release night time one) and at the moment checks her sugars about 6 times a day. We saw the GP weekly from her discharge until 2 weeks ago and he now only wants to see her every 3 months.

If your reading was 20 after you'd eaten I'm sure it would be a lot lower after fasting (particularly as you'd had carbs which turn to sugar)

If you do have diabetes, which sounds likely I'm sure you'll be fine. If my dippy blonde teenager can cope then anyone can. It will change your life but you can stop it taking over it. Just take it seriously and you'll be fine.

MOSagain Tue 22-Jan-13 16:58:48

PS, cardio exercise is brilliant for getting your glucose levels down. It was my personal trainer who alerted me to the possibility of diabetes when I signed up with her and she did my health mot. She has worked with me the past 10 months and has really helped me keep my sugars down.

Percephone Tue 22-Jan-13 16:59:03

If you just ate a meal then your blood sugar will be higher than usual. You can't say there is a problem or how severe it is until you have a fasting sample and other bloods taken, which your gp will arrange. If it's still high then he'll discuss management with you which will be diet, tablets or (only if severe) insulin. You'll probably be advised to lose weight and see the dietician. If your sugar is high then it's probably been like that for some time. There are lots of people with high blood sugar who don't even know (or care in some cases!) Yes it needs sorting soon but it's not an emergency wink

Hope it gets sorted and everything is ok smile

SCOTCHandWRY Tue 22-Jan-13 17:12:45

I was somewhat taken aback by her worrying

20 is very high, the pharmacist is right to have ensured you had a GP appointment that day or attend hospital ASAP. It doesn't matter what you eat, or when, your blood sugar should not be 20, even if you just had a whole plate of sugar.

The pharmacist would be concerned that about the possibility of you going into Hyperglycaemic shock (diabetic coma), as although you may have had high blood sugars for some time, there is real potential for the condition to suddenly go downhill in an undiagnosed diabetic (as they will not be getting any treatment) and a person can become very, very sick in only a few hours.

So please, take this seriously.

Chickchickadee Tue 22-Jan-13 17:29:02

I had gestational diabetes, I had a bit of extra padding but wasn't hugely overweight when I fell pregnant (size 12) so was quite surprised. One day when I was doing a test I was being a baby about the finger prick and my Mum said to let her try. Her reading was over 30. She went to the GP and was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes (again she wasn't really overweight). Apparently we have since found it runs in the family.

She now controls it through diet and medication (tablets) and it is fine, just required a few adjustments to what she was eating, although not really dramatic changes.

I was insulin controlled through my pregnancy and it was fine. Not great (I hate needles) but doable. I returned to normal after giving birth but will need an annual test.

I'm sure you will be okay. It might be a shock but it is easy to adjust and certainly something you will be able to control.

Chickchickadee Tue 22-Jan-13 17:31:45

Just to give you an idea pre-meals my level was 4 - 5 and an hour afterwards had to be less than 7.8 during my pregnancy so 20 is high but the test my Mum did when she found out was higher. It didn't help she had eaten cake an hour beforehand!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 23-Jan-13 14:40:34

Just popped home to collect some bits and give a quick update.

Thank you for all your replies. Typical MN thread though, lots of polar opposite replies grin and as I said earlier - I was part Tee's response and part Scotch's myself. Scotch - that's really scary. I felt crap this morning (as usual) and faint, yuck when in the shower, I was starting to feel a bit worried...

MOS - I'm not really worried about 'handling' it as such, it's more I guess, wanting it to 'go away' and feeling like I've cause it myself sad It is definitely not a shock as I've thought it was a possibility for a while, but shoved my head in the sand. I've always been a bit prone to fainting and temperature spikes, but it's getting worse sad Is there anyway of coming off your tablets or will you be on them (or others/insulin) for life?
Your DD has coped well smile Poor kid being stuck in the hospital with all the 'oldies'!

I'm complaining to the wrong people of course - but I just don't want to be dependent on tablets or insulin sad <sorry> I'm feeling very annoyed with myself...have I caused this through diet and lack of exercise? How does one 'get' diabetes??

Chick - I bet that was a real shock for your Mum, poor thing sad
It's good that yours went away and was 'only' gestational. I hope it stays away for you.

Doctors visit - when I went in I was expecting him to know why I was there and be a bit 'right, lets get this looked at' but he wasn't. He asked why I was there, then when I told him, why I thought I might be diabetic. He was very calm and very surprised about the pharmacists reaction. However, he said he didn't want to 'waste time' doing a glucose text and asked me to do a urine test - which he looked at and said I should go and get my blood taken for some tests (and arranged it with the woman at reception who had said 'I have NO appts for blood today NONE' when I'd asked her. Anyway, bloods are now done and I've an appointment for next week when the results are back. He gave me a few leaflets and told me that due to my 'body shape' I will almost certainly need meds if it comes back positive. He was nice enough (not my Doctor who I've never actually met) but he'll see me this time and next and take it from there.

Got to run or I'll be late to pick up my friends two from school. Not sure if I'll make it back tonight or not, but will as soon as I can.

Thank you all so much for your anecdotes, information and support smile thanks MNers are The Best! x

torychicetc Wed 23-Jan-13 14:54:33

Yes, my relative had similiar problem. She is ok now. good luck

Dawndonna Wed 23-Jan-13 15:03:30

My stepmother died last year. She was found in the bathroom four days after she'd died. She'd had a diabetic fit. Her sugar had been around 24/25 for the week before. Everybody is different, Tee, and the pharmacist got it bang on as she didn't know the OP.

MOSagain Wed 23-Jan-13 15:10:35

My mother also died as a result of her diabetes, 3 1/2 years ago. After my dad died she had trouble controlling it and was in and out of hospital 11 times in the first year after he died. She had a typo when home alone and no one found her in time. I think this has made myself and my DD more aware of our conditions and take it extremely seriously.

OP, yes, I will be on tablets for the rest of my life and may yet end up on insulin. Its possibly not your fault if you develop it. Yes, overweight people (such as me) do tend to get it but my DD is not overweight, she is a lovely size 12 envy and my mum was the tiniest person you'd ever meet. My 6 year old is nearly as big as she was. Sometimes it just runs in families, nothing you can do now, just watch what you eat and if you are prescribed medication, take it as directed. Good luck x

OhlimpPricks Wed 23-Jan-13 15:33:14

Glad you are seeking medical attention. I have had it about 2 years and take tablets. My fasting level is normally 7/8.

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 23-Jan-13 16:16:08

Please listen to what I am about to say, because it is really important. My DH is a GP, he was reading over my shoulder when I posted my previous reply - his comment was "Good call by the Pharmacist". In his practice the protocol for anyone with any diabetic type symptoms whatsoever (including anyone who utters any comment about thirst or being tired) is to pee-on-a-stick, followed by an instant blood test done right there and then by the GP (whole thing takes less than a couple of mins). You had a random blood sugar test of 20 - that is actually enough to diagnose diabetes right there and then (although they are likely to want to repeat them anyway). They pick up large numbers of previously undiagnosed Diabetics that way.

DID the DR MENTION KETONES? Did he test for these and were there any present on the peestick?

If you feel worse, or vomit, please seek urgent medical attention.

Littlebearlost Wed 23-Jan-13 17:12:16

Type 1 and type 2 diabetes are actually very different and I wish sometimes they had different names.
Type 1 is usually younger onset, requires insulin, has nothing to do with diet, weight or how many sweets you eat and is completely incurable. At the moment there is no way back after a type 1 diagnosis. Insulin dependent for the rest of your life. There is no definite known cause, may partly be genetic, may be caused by an infection causing the immune system to attack the pancreatic cells.

Type 2 or age onset can be cause in part by lifestyle. It is also hereditary. Being overweight and not exercising can be risk factors but are not the only causes. It may be treated with diet and tablets and in some cases losing weight, watching diet and exercising can allow you to come off medication. It is caused by insulin resistance. You still make insulin. In type 1 the insulin making cells no longer work, hence the need for insulin injections.

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 23-Jan-13 17:30:04

You can have elements of both - type 1.5
I have a friend with type 1.5 and interestingly she has a number of different autoimmune illnesses.

Type 1 (autoimmune) is occurring across all age groups (getting more common in adults), it is not know why.

Type 2 is getting more common in younger people too.

You can need insulin for type 2 as well, it is only diet controlled or tablet controlled in the earlier stages.

GobTheGoblin Wed 23-Jan-13 17:59:02

OP don't be surprised if you get a call earlier from your GP asking to see you urgently or saying you need to go to a hospital. It just means that your sugars are to high and they want to start with insulin/tablets immediately.

Unfortunately diabetes is a 'for life' condition.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 10:25:37

I just wrote a really long post and MN ate it sad

I will go back and re-do it.

In the meantime, can anyone help me feel less crap in the morning? When I wake up I feel awful - a bit shakey, light headed & nauseous. Do I need to eat something before bed? Not eat for hours before bed? Eat something when I wake up? Or wont any of those help. I used to be able to get out of bed, straight into the shower and on with the day, now I feel so shit I have to sit around until I 'equalise' a bit with life. I have to get up at least an hour earlier to 'deal' with this and I'm fed up with waking up feeling so awful sad

shagmundfreud Thu 24-Jan-13 10:30:28

MyHead - if you're diabetic you will feel MILES better once you start treatment. smile

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 10:40:32

Tory - I'm glad she's OK now smile

Dawndonna - I'm really sorry to hear about your SM sad that's really scary and definitely went through my mind last night when I was feeling sick, had a 'loose' tummy and felt light headed - a bit scary.

Mos - I'm really sorry to hear about your Mum sad I can totally understand how she struggled to deal with this after your Dad died, dealing with anything other than your grief is really hard, even if it's really important. I guess it's helped your DD understand how critical it is to do what she has to do. I hope you don't think I was saying you or your DD (or anyone else!!) had caused their D, I wasn't, not at all. It very clearly runs in your family sad I was just looking purely at myself x

Ohlimpricks - have you tried controlling it through diet? Don't answer if you don't want to - but would you class yourself as overweight and if so, have you lost any weight since your DX?

Scotch - I am very definitely listening smile He didn't tell me what he tested in my urine, though I guessed it was keytons (having done a diet which involved testing them) but he didn't tell me what the result was and I was going to ask but we got talking about other things. I rang the surgery this morning, but it's not on my notes and he's not in today - she's going to ping him a message which he'll get tomorrow when he gets in and I can call back, but I assume he didn't think it was worth recording, just enough information to make him decide to go straight to blood tests and not bother with the glucose test. I feel pretty rubbish a lot of the time, as I said in my previous post, particularly in the mornings. I've been putting it down to not sleeping. I haven't been sick and although I feel like death warmed up in the mornings I don't feel anyworse than I have in over a year - but if I am sick or do feel worse I'll definitely go straight away as you've said that.

LittleBear/Scotch - I did know there was a big difference in T1 and T2, but I didn't know about T1.5.

Gob - I wouldn't be surprised. Of course, as these things tend to be, it would be terrible timing, but if needs must sad

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 10:42:14

Shag - that is at least one good point smile

shagmundfreud Thu 24-Jan-13 10:53:21

No honestly - if you have diabetes and you get your blood sugars under control you will feel like a new woman!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 10:57:05


It's the other thing (the first thing being exercise) that I thought I could at least start changing/doing to help but I am confused.

The booklet the Dr gave me says to have 3 meals a day and have carbs at each of them - it actually says that crumpets/toast/potatoes are 'good' to have and that 'the amount of carbs you eat is important to control your BGL....' it does then go on to say lower GI are better. Fine. But the diabetes web site I was looking at was saying to avoid all/any processed carbs - bread, pasta rice and (not processed of course -but) potatoes.

The website was also saying that although a lot of Drs wont support you doing it that people have had brilliant results doing the Newcastle Study diet or the Cambridge controlled diet - 600 calories (though 800 actually as 200 are from shakes). Have any of you tried this? A lot of reviews say they actually brought their results back into the normal range doing this for a few weeks.

Weight have any of you brought yours back into normal by losing weight? or know of anyone who has? The booklet or the website (can't remember which now) says that losing as little as 5-10% of your weight can achieve this. I also read somewhere that each x amount of weight (didn't actually catch the amount of weight) means your body has to produce more insulin for it to work, so each x amount of weight you lose means that your insulin will cope better.

Exercising is proving hard because I feel so bloody awful and whereas before I'd just push through thinking that it was just because I was overweight and that was making it harder to do that 4 miles/run up the stairs etc - now it's actually a bit scary too as it makes me feel so sick that I'm scared of something happening sad Any thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks all smile

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 10:58:31

Shag - do you have it? Do you (or whoever you know that makes you say that) control it through diet or do you need tablets/insulin?

Inaflap Thu 24-Jan-13 11:04:32

If you are feeling sick then that can be a sign you have ketones which then can get dangerous. Headaches are also a sign of high bloods.

You will have type 2 diabetes. Your pancreas is either not pushing out enough insulin or you body has stopped absorbing insulin properly. Essentially, we have insulin to help convert what we eat (the carbs) into glucose which our blood carries to our brain and other areas to help us function. Excess glucose goes to be stored as fat. Now when insulin is impaired, the body calls upon the liver to take over which does something jazzy with some hormone or other (gets a bit technical here so can't get it right) and that uses the fat to turn into glucose. The problem with that is that it makes us thirsty, thus weeing more, loss of body weight and a bi product of ketones which kind of turns the blood into acid and you know how damaging acid can be.

Any way. Your life is not over, its all very manageable and you will be a lot healthier. If you eat a low GI diet and take tablets then all should be well because your pancreas probably is still splurging ou some insulin. If it stops then you wull have to inject. My son is type 1 and was diagnosed when he was 8. He injects.4 times a day. My mother is type 2 which she got in her early 50s she has 4 injections a day. She is about to be 80 and is fine. If you are put onto insulin then pm me and i can go through more stuff with you.

Remember, most things contain sugar. Did you know that cornflakes raise your bloods higher and more quickly than chocolate. Ice cream is medium GI and doesnt raise bloods much. Fruit has loads of sugar in it. Basically anything with carbs will raise your bloods. There are aps and blood meters that work it all out for you. There is a thing now with type 2 that they are not giving them meters or test strips. These are essential and worth buying if you need to. Again happy to advise.

OhlimpPricks Thu 24-Jan-13 11:15:07

Yes, I am very overweight, and was before. It's ridiculous, as the shock of it caused me to give up smoking after 30 years when Dr told me to. Losing weight has not been so easy to do. I am disabled (problem with my foot, I need a stick to walk with, stairs a big deal) though that is no excuse for obesity, it's a lot harder to exercise.
I have done the Atkins diet on/off since dx. When I am doing it, bs levels are in single figures.

Inaflap Thu 24-Jan-13 11:27:35

Carbs, ohhh this gets hard. Essentially there are long acting carbs ( porridge, brown rise, brown anything really) and short quick acting carbs (generally more porcessed and stuff with sugar in). You do need carbs but need to be careful which. So fruitjuice is going to ramp up your blood sugar because tons of fast acting sugars in it. Different people also react differently to different foods. Exercise is key. For example we went on a visit to excell arena, tons and tons of walking, DS2 didn't have to inject at lunch time even though he had a massive lunch. You are feeling rough at the moment so don't go great guns until medication can get your bloods down. It will also take a while for your sight to get less blurry. This is the body getting itself back to normal. High bloods can make people rather tetchy and slightly manic and possibly panicky so be aware of your emotions. Diabetics can be quite hard work and moody at times. Sigh!

One thing, you will get very good at reading the backs of packets!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 11:32:00

Inaflap - funny you should mention that, in the last couple of weeks I've had quite a few headaches, which I'm not normally prone to. I didn't think to mention them to the Dr as I hadn't linked them with D.

If my urine test had shown keytones - do you not think the Dr would have done more than order bloods and tell me to make an appointment for a weeks time?

Quite a few years ago I had a problem with my liver. I had a virus attack it after I'd had glandular fever. My GGT levels were well out of whack for about 2 years - and ended up at the top end of normal when they stopped testing them. Not sure if that's at all relevant? One would assume I'd have been tested for D then? I seemed to be tested for LOADS of things. They did say at the time that the reason I was struggling/would struggle to lose weight was that my liver wasn't processing stuff properly and was putting fat back into the bloodstream instead of into 'waste' - it sounds odd thinking about it like that now, but it's what they said at the time.

I'm certainly not losing weight at the moment?!

Thank you for the offer of the PM if I need insulin x

I do know that most things contain sugar. Many years ago I was being tested for something (I think it was because I was still so bloody tired all the time 2 years after I'd had glandular fever - and to be honest, I haven't been the same since) and I had to go wheat and sugar free for 2 months. At the time it didn't change what they were looking at so I didn't need to continue.

I didn't know that cornflakes raise your bloods higher than chocolate - why is that? But understanding that would probably help as I'm very probably eating things I think wont raise my bloods and they will. Would the Low GI index help with those misconceptions?

The booklet the Dr gave me has this question:

Is it true that I shouldn't eat bananas or grapes

The answer is:

NO. All fruit is good for you. Eating more fruit can reduce the risk of heart disease, some cancers and some gut problems. Eat a variety of different fruit and vegetables for maximum benefit

Are you saying this is wrong and that I should avoid fruit?

(Quite willing to believe this is wrong)

You say Basically anything with carbs will raise your bloods So why does the booklet say to eat carbs at all meals? (complex ones, not just those in veg).

There are aps and blood meters that work it all out for you. There is a thing now with type 2 that they are not giving them meters or test strips. These are essential and worth buying if you need to. Again happy to advise

I don't have a smart phone (yet) so can't do any phone aps, but I'd appreciate any help you can give me.

I know I haven't had a dx yet, but my thinking is that it is highly likely I have D/T2 and so I might as well get all the info I can and start making changes (I'm just confused now about what they shoud be) as it will help me if I do have D T2 and wont do any harm at all if I don't smile

Honestly, I know it's not the end of the world and some people think I'm panicking, but I'm honestly not. I haven't told anyone IRL so this is my only outlet. I just want to get as much info as I can and start making changes to feel better and to help to try to stop it getting any worse... and to avoid any fits/hypos etc as I feel like I'm getting more symptoms very quickly now (over the last fortnight - not just since I went to the chemist).

Thank you so much for your help smile

shagmundfreud Thu 24-Jan-13 11:36:28

No - only had gestational diabetes in pregnancy, and it resolved afterwards.

However, have not great control over blood sugars now, at 46, and am worried about getting type 2 later.

I find the following helps - protein, fat and SLOW release carbs (granary - not just 'brown' bread, brown rice, rough cut oats) together at EVERY meal. Do not eat carbs on their own. I was also told that carbs (pasta, basmati rice etc) were fine when I had GD, and actually I found that they weren't in anything other than very small quantities, and even then only if I ate them with protein and fat at the same time.

I would say - no fruit or fruit juice between meals also.

Lots of exercise.

Look up low GI recipes.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 11:38:07

Ohlimppricks - thank you. It's great that you gave up smoking smile I think losing weight is harder in that you can't just go cold turkey with food, you still have to eat and so are constantly making choices, whereas with smoking you make one decision and can stick to it. I know it's hard, so I'm not minimising the effort you had to make to stop smoking! I'm glad I never started - as I know I'd have found it very difficult to stop. If you were to do Atkins all the time would you be able to come off your tablets? (not that I'm suggesting you do that as I don't know if it's really good for you). It must be that much harder with a disability that means you can't just 'go out for a good walk' and that makes me feel even more guilty that I don't - when I can.

shagmundfreud Thu 24-Jan-13 11:41:14

I was very shocked that the dietician at the hospital was encouraging me to eat loads of bread, rice and pasta when I had GD. It made my blood sugars go through the roof. By the end of my pregnancy I was only eating meat, nuts, green vegetables, a small amount of dairy, about half a cup of rice/oats a day. Couldn't keep that diet up now, but for pregnancy it was very good and definitely got my blood sugar under control. My third baby was 2 lbs smaller than my second baby, despite being a lot longer and having a much bigger head circumference (and grew much, much faster in the first few months).

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 11:55:34

Inaflap - I do understand the difference between long/good carbs and short/bad carbs, I think that's why I was surprised when the booklet said to have either - low GI = better, but any = good. It suggests having toast/crumpets for breakfast for example, which I thought was a bit hmm. I'd understand if they said NOT to have those but to have porridge.

Exercise is key

I will keep repeating this - my new mantra smile I know this will be different for everyone, but do you have any idea what kind is best? ie short hard workouts with weights, long walks, fast walks, one long walk a day or two shorter walks a day - or walk all day smile

Do you think I should refuse the medication and try to do it through diet/exercise/weightloss first or take the meds as well and hope to come off them?

As far as meds are concerned, do you know if I'd be better to try to do it with diet/weightloss/exercise alone then take meds if it doesn't change or if I'd be better to take meds straight away and hope to come off of them?

I'm pleased to say that my blurry vision seems to be limited to reading the pale bits of the tivo guide at night with the overhead light on. My general eyesight seems to be getting a little worse too - but for my age I think it's still pretty good (ie I haven't found any tiny text I can't still read, I just need to turn it to the light a little more than I used to and signs in the distance aren't quite as sharp as they used to be, but I can still read them from a long distance). I feel lucky in that and just want to do all I can for this not to affect my eyesight more than it will no matter what I do iyswim.

I assumed it was low bloods making me feel light headed - is that wrong?

I have felt a bit panicky at times over the last few months, but I put that down to 'actual' stuff I'm dealing with (bereavement, redundancy, family illness etc) and it hasn't been serious, just a bit 'not me'.

Diabetics can be quite hard work and moody at times Opps - will bear this in mind!! smile

One thing, you will get very good at reading the backs of packets! I'm vegetarian (vegan for 5 years) and have lived in countries without the UK's brilliant vegetarian labelling - so I'm good at reading packets smile The thing this time though, is that I don't really understand what I'm looking to have or avoid?!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 12:02:33

Shag - thank you smile

When you say 'lots of exercise' can you define the level that you do that you feel works (I know it will be different for everyone, but just so I have some idea).

I will go and have a look at low GI recipies, but have you any 'off the top of your head' good ideas for vegetarian (no egg) meals (not necessarily recipes, just things you put together that work for you)

You did really well through your pregnancy smile

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 12:05:25

When I have been awake/up for about an hour/hour and a half I feel 'OK'. Tired but no longer nauseous, light headed etc and that's without eating or drinking? Do you think it's D related or not??

Littlebearlost Thu 24-Jan-13 12:12:32

If it were me I would probably go and buy a blood sugar monitor and check my own blood sugar in the morning and evening. When are you back at dr? Apologies if you've already said, I've skim read in between doing housework!
I would expect that the headaches / feeling sick / tired etc are blood sugar related. It's pretty much how I feel if my sugar goes above 13 or 14. I also usually feel very very irritable at that level.
Diet and tablet control at least means you won't be at risk of severe hypos (low blood sugar) which is part of the balancing act when you have to take insulin injections.

CrazyOldCatLady Thu 24-Jan-13 12:31:46

I assumed it was low bloods making me feel light headed - is that wrong?
I've had type 2 for a decade now, and I find that when it's been badly controlled for a while and I'm used to running high constantly, my body reacts badly to lower levels, even levels that are actually still too high. So I tend to get light-headed and nauseous in the mornings until I eat, even if my fasting BG is high.

There are various schools of thought when it comes to carbs and diabetes; I find a low carb approach works for me, but my local hospital's dietician is a fan of carbs and insisted that I have two slices of toast and a bowl of cornflakes every day for breakfast! We argued and I've been refusing to see her ever since.

In order to really know how the way you're feeling relates to your blood sugar, you need to get a monitor and start checking multiple times a day. They're cheap and easily available from any chemist. It's recommended to test before every meal and an hour afterwards (or two hours, depending who you talk to), and before you go to bed as well.

CrazyOldCatLady Thu 24-Jan-13 12:32:33

Littlebearlost, that's funny, I actually find I'm happier overall if I'm running high. Unfortunately!

giraffesCantGoFirstFooting Thu 24-Jan-13 12:39:59

Hello! Hope Dr is helpful, no advice really am afraid!

Inaflap Thu 24-Jan-13 14:00:21

Can i reccomend a book, its called 'think like a pancreas' and its very useful. There is also a book called low GI guide to diabetes. I know my sister used this (shes also diabetic) and not only lost loads of weight but reduced her insulin intake. From this, they reccomend that for a daily intale of 1500 calories, you should consume 188 g of carb as part of that. So during the day this would be

4 slices of brown bread, three small pieces of fruit, some starch veg (sweet potatoe, corn, baked beans, peas, carrots, brocli)' one cup(sorry, its american) of either cereal, or cooked rice, or pasta, ot quinoa plus two cups of low fat milk or equivalent (including yoghurt).

Muffins I would steer clear of as they have a lot of added sugar. On the backs of packets, if you look at the carb bit and then it says 'of which sugars' i was told you should aim not to eat anything with more than 7 to 10g of sugar in it.

Another thing to warch are drinks. Sugar free squash is now your friend. Alchol apparently makes your blood low. Would reccomend Diabetes UK for information and if you join you get a quarterly magazine with some useful stuff in it. If they want to put you on meds then do it. You have a lifelong chronic illness which is going to be a balancing act from now on. This time next year it will seem like a doodle but we never get it right as there are so many variables. Stress, cold, heat, tension, all these things can affect blood readings.

I think you are right that if you had high keytone readings they would have seen you sooner.

Souper Thu 24-Jan-13 14:27:02

If you had ketones in your urine you would have been referred to hospital to have been seen that day.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 15:18:45

LittleBearLost - Drs next Wednesday (at this stage anyway).

I will go and get a BS monitor smile

I am irritable at times but as I said earlier I put that down to bereavement, family illness, redundancy, tiredness etc - but maybe D is a contributing factor.

Low BS = hypos yes? So does that mean when I do feel shaky, light headed that I should have something sweet? and if so, what's best?

Crazy - thank you smile I will get monitor. I guess it's going to be trial and error. My nausea/light headedness goes away on it's own, which I think is why I've just put it down to being tired/not really sleeping.

Giraffes - <waves> Thanks x

InADlap - I'll go and see if I can get the books on line now - thank you. That's a lot of food! I don't eat muffins - so very easy to stay away from those smile That's helpful to know about the 7-10 g of carbs from sugar. I don't drink much other than water, black tea & lattes really, so not hard to stay away from the others.

Diabetes UK was recommending the 600 calorie diet - has anyone tried it? It's actually 600 calories of 'food' and 200 calories in shakes.

I only thought about resisting the meds due to reading this...

mirry2 Tue 22-Jan-13 16:07:28
You may have type 2 diabetes. 20 is high but could be because you had just eaten. Wait until you have a glucose tolerance test, I have type 2, but I don't have any symptoms and I don't take medicine (I have resisted this since diagnosis and my glucose levels have remained 6-7 for the past 5 years).

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 15:22:30

Souper - oh OK. What do you think he 'read' that would make him decide to 'skip' the glucose test and go straight onto getting bloods done? He said something along the lines of 'Let's not waste time doing the glucose test, let's get the bloods done straight away - we can always do the glucose test later in need be'

MOSagain Thu 24-Jan-13 15:48:34

I had the glucose test at the hospital because I was borderline and I'm now type 2. They skipped the glucose test wtih DD as they sai there was no point, it was obvious she was type 1.
She had keytones in her urine and within minutes of the nurse picking it up she was on her way to hospital.

OhlimpPricks Thu 24-Jan-13 15:51:52

The blood sugar machine should be relatively cheap, at £10-15, it's the strips which cost(about £15 for 30) however you should get these on prescription. Some surgeries will try and refuse to prescribe them (all the true cost of prescriptions are eventually charged to the prescribing surgery), but under NHS/NISA prescribing guidelines you are entiltled to them. Quote the guidelines to them if they are reluctant.
If you are diagnosed diabetic, then you are entitled to an prescription fee exemption card. Your receptionist will have a form; you fill it in and give it to the doctor and they send it off. In the meantime,if you are prescribed medication for diabetes, tell the pharmacist that you are waiting for your exemption card to be issued.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 16:15:53

Mos - do you know if it's possible to be T1 untreated and not have keytones in my urine? I had assumed I would be T2 (if anything) given I'm 43 and it hasn't been picked up before now?

OLP - I read about the free prescriptions in the booklet I was given yesterday - but thanks for mentioning it anyway. I will see next week what he says about the strips if the dx is D <I am assuming it will be, it seems clear to me really - unfortunately> but it's good to know how to push for them if I need to - thank you!

Is there any point in getting a blood sugar machine before the dx do you think?

Littlebearlost Thu 24-Jan-13 16:25:27

Hypos are caused by too much insulin. At the moment you will not be having hypos because you have too little insulin so it is unlikely that when you feel dizzy it is due to low blood sugar. Possibly could be blood sugar fluctuations though.

Low blood sugar is a symptom of the treatment of diabetes. You do not get low blood sugar from actually being diabetic. I get a hypo if I have miscalculated my insulin dose.

If you buy a meter you will get some free strips with it. Then can get the strips on prescription. Might put your mind at rest? Or some ketone strips which you can also buy from the chemist.

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 24-Jan-13 16:29:30

If my urine test had shown keytones - do you not think the Dr would have done more than order bloods and tell me to make an appointment for a weeks time?

Quite a few years ago I had a problem with my liver. I had a virus attack it after I'd had glandular fever. My GGT levels were well out of whack for about 2 years - and ended up at the top end of normal when they stopped testing them. Not sure if that's at all relevant? One would assume I'd have been tested for D then? I seemed to be tested for LOADS of things. They did say at the time that the reason I was struggling/would struggle to lose weight was that my liver wasn't processing stuff properly and was putting fat back into the bloodstream instead of into 'waste' - it sounds odd thinking about it like that now, but it's what they said at the time.

If there were ketones - it should have been straight to hospital due to the risk of diabetic coma - but you don't know if the GP tested for this and he has not recorded it in his notes what he tested for (!), incomplete notes, that's not good a good sign IMO.

Yes, your liver issue is likely to be relevant, it sounds like you have been struggling with syndrome X (impaired glucose tolerance), for a long time... the glandular fever - could suggest an autoimmune component (type 1.5 or even type 1... which would make the ketone question more urgent).

The Dr skipped the blood test because you had a finger-prick reading of 20. Presumably also +++on the pee stick. A single random reading from a blood sample (not finger prick) of 11 = immediate diagnosis of diabetes (GTT will diagnose less clear cut cases). The finger prick is not quite as accurate, but your reading is way above that. PP's telling you a reading of 20 could be because you have just eaten are completely wrong! In a non diabetic person even at peak after eating a high carb meal, blood sugar should not be going above about 8 and should be back to <5 after 3 hours (diabetics even with good control are likely to be a bit higher than that).

You are not feeling ill because you are hypo (low blood, which you would get from taking too much insulin or medication), you are chronically HYPERglycemic (high blood sugar) at the moment.

I would be tempted to pop back to the pharmacist and see if they sell boxes of Multistix, pee sticks which have colour change squares on them which test for ketones and sugar amongst other things - anymore than "trace" ketones, go to A&E...

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 24-Jan-13 16:33:45

*Skipped the GTT

OhlimpPricks Thu 24-Jan-13 17:24:48

If you have a local pharmacy near your surgery that you will tend to use, then ask in there which machines they stock, as they are always likely to stock the strips for them.
I have the Accu check Aviva Nano. Brilliant, as it comes in a little pouch with finger pricker etc. it can also store all your results in the memory. It was about 15£ it's about the size of a small egg.

OhlimpPricks Thu 24-Jan-13 17:35:51

NICE prescribing guidlines
Sorry, it's NICE guidlines, not NiSA ! You sound like someone who is keen to evaluate and manage your condition and so that is a valid reason for them to prescribe them. If you manage and get to know your condition, what affects it, I.e, certain foods, illness, stress, then you're less likely to become ill and up at the drs every week...

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 24-Jan-13 18:10:47

LittleBearLost - thank you smile

Scotch - thank you! What else might he have been testing in my urine if it wasn't ketones? (baring in mind he was only focusing on diabetes. I know that as I asked him to check for thyroid (my mum has a thyroid problem and I was told I had a slight problem years ago) and I asked him to check my GGT levels - he said it was pointless to go looking for anything else as it could all come down to diabetes).

I haven't been the same since I had glandular fever/viral attack on my liver - which was years ago (1990) and have been fobbed off a lot when I've said I'm lethargic, tired, 'not me' etc I wonder if I do have T1 or had syndrome X (which I presume will now have turned into T2). Is there anyway to find out if I have had it for a long time?

The nurse took 3 vials of blood and said there were 'randoms' - it didn't mean anything to me.

That explain the 'straight to blood test' - thanks!

I will go to the chemist and get some 'pee sticks' tomorrow. I used them once before when I was on some diet that required you to be in ketosis. (I didn't do it for very long) and take action if they're above trace.

OhLimpPricks - that's good advice, I'll go and see what my local chemist has in tomorrow. I definitely want to manage it myself and minimise the impact is has on both my life now and my health later on.

I felt fine before (a little more energy than normal in fact), but hadn't eaten all day. Then I had 3 crumpets, one with apricot jam and two with peanut butter and banana with a latte. I probably wont buy any of those things anymore but thought I'd use them up as I had them in. Anyway, I now have a headache & feel very very tired - the two are not necessarily connected I know, but what do you think?

LayMizzRarb Thu 24-Jan-13 18:19:13

OhlimpPricks here, have name changed!
If you are diagnosed, you will be able to have the odd treat, but it just means making a few changes, and looking at food labels for a while.
Something's may suprise you with how much or how little sugar they actually contain.
Be very wary of stuff of stuff marketed as very low fat/reduced fat versions of things like yoghurt, deserts, diet foods, as they usually contain tons of sugar to compensate for the lack of taste that fat causes. Yoghurts are a number one offender. Advertised as low fat and slimming, but very full of sugar.

FarmerNell Thu 24-Jan-13 18:40:56

Hi MyHead

3 crumpets, jam, banana ... that's a lot of carbs in one go and it's probably sent your blood sugar way high. You need to be able to test your blood sugar and act accordingly (eg exercise to bring your levels down) if you want to get on a more even keel.

I'm type 1 and I can tell you I feel like crap if my levels gets too high. Lethargic, sick, chest tight, strange feeling in my mouth - not nice!

For the dizziness etc in the morning - it's hard to say what's going on unless you test. If your levels have been high for a long time (and it sounds like they have), you could feel hypo even if you're not. It could be your body adjusting to lower, more normal blood sugar levels. If you can gradually work on getting your overall levels down you might then only feel hypo when you are actually hypo (levels under about 4, for me anyway)

You can actually get meters for free from most manufacturers, just google and pick one. It's the strips that make them their money...

Inaflap Thu 24-Jan-13 18:56:37

Manufacturers do free meters. I wouln't dash off and buy one yet. Pee sticks will be fine until you get a diagnosis. If you get put straight on insulin then you'll get one anyway. You've just had a massive amount of carbs. My son works out his insulin dose based on his blood reading and the amount of carbs he is eating. Bit of a bore at feeding time but fortunately he is good at maths and has a meter that contains the formulas. If he ate that amount then he would have to have a wacking amount of insulin. You can't have a hypo but your body has got used to you being high so when you are not your body might think its having a hypo.

See what the DR says and then move forward but it is handy to be genned up. Its quite common for diabetics to have thyroid probs.

Melty Thu 24-Jan-13 20:50:54

Dont worry about buying meters sticks etc. The GP/nurse will sort you out. Most Diabetes is managed in the community these days, so between the GP and the diabetic nurse, they will supply you with what you need. Diabetic patients get free prescriptions for diabetic stuff so wait...

SCOTCHandWRY Fri 25-Jan-13 15:32:16

I felt fine before (a little more energy than normal in fact), but hadn't eaten all day. Then I had 3 crumpets, one with apricot jam and two with peanut butter and banana with a latte. I probably wont buy any of those things anymore but thought I'd use them up as I had them in. Anyway, I now have a headache & feel very very tired - the two are not necessarily connected I know, but what do you think?

I think you need to be very careful and eat very few carb/sugary food just now, until your treatment gets started - I am a bit worried about your headaches and your lethargy, and the posibility of Hyperclycemic problems (ketoacidosis - not the same as having ketones due to being on a diet but a very dangerous condition which can be triggered quite quickly when blood sugar spiral out of control).

I hope you managed to get some pee sticks today smile.

The multistix used in most GP surgeries have little colour squares that change colour and you read them off against a reference chart on the box - they test for sugar, protein (sign of infection), ketones, ph, blood and a couple of other things.

I'm not sure what the nurse meant by "Randoms"?

Thyroid - often goes a bit wonky in people who have autoimmune illness, impaired glucose tolerance, diabetes... IMO worth testing function, not very impressed by your GP... maybe it's time to change to a different one soon!

SCOTCHandWRY Fri 25-Jan-13 15:41:45

Unfortunately, the way they will know if you have had this problem for a long time is by checking to see if you have already got some damage from you blood sugar being high for a long time (years) sad, newly diagnosed diabetics should have a series of checks to assess any nerve or eye damage they may have, it also means they have a clear picture of where your are NOW so they can check your treatment is preventing further problems when they recheck these things in the future.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 25-Jan-13 15:50:59

I got a call from the Drs this morning to say I don't have diabetes grin but he wants to see me next week still.

I have spent a couple of hours like this >>>>> grin wondering how to share my good news here, without sounding like I'm gloating and without making anyone here feel worse about their situation. I felt I'd been given my life back and the chance to 'start again' smile I felt the low level depression I have been living with since my bereavement lift - I felt, for the first time in years - excited.

Then another receptionist rang. I DO have diabetes. She has no idea who called earlier, she has no idea why that was said, she's sorry. Sorry???

I am gutted angry

As you all know, I'd accepted that this would be how it went - that I am a diabetic and that I'd have to come to terms with the changes in my life and how it will affect lots of things in my life and my future health. The additional complications it will bring to getting/being/remaining pregnant if that even happens - I actually think this is the end of that dream sad

But to be told I'm NOT then I AM - I was lifted high and now I have crashed and I just want to cry.

Megatron Fri 25-Jan-13 15:53:20

Agree with everything SCOTCH says. DD has Type 1.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 25-Jan-13 15:58:13

When I woke up this morning, I didn't feel awful, I felt almost 'normal' and able to go in the shower without having to wait until I felt OK. It was great.

I met a friend this morning and had 2 lattes while we were chatting. Came home, felt fine... got lots done, another good day, better than I've had in ages...

I took the first phone call, did some more housework then stopped for something to eat. I had 2 pita pockets with avocado and a bottle of water.

Then I got the second phone call.

I now feel tired and I have a headache sad

No pee sticks yet. But I might go out and get some now.

Receptionist couldn't seem to see my point when I said Wednesday was a long way away for me and I'd like to know more about my results before then. She huffily said she'd see if the Dr had time to ring me or not. He also said I have the Diet booklet and to just read that.

The thing is - the booklet goes against a lot of what you wise people have said - so what do I do??

thegreylady Fri 25-Jan-13 15:58:56

My dh was dx with T2 diabetes about 3 years ago.At the time of dx his reading was 7 which we were told was borderline.He was prescribed tablets and given a diet sheet and told to lose weight.
His main symptom was a little numbness in his feet.He has to have 6 monthly blood tests, eye exams and foot checks.
Last time he went to the hospital his reading was 4.8 and they were delighted with him.before that the reading had been up to 9 and the doctor was beginning to talk about insulin injections. My dh is 76 but he really took control of his diet, gave up all sugar in drinks and reduced carbs.he eats a normal healthy diet now and has lost 2 and a half stones of weight.

LayMizzRarb Fri 25-Jan-13 16:14:28

At least you got to speak to a human. After being tested, my GP left a message on my voicemail to tell me I was diabetic, and could I make an appt to see a dr at the surgery. Luckily I'm a pragmatic person, and had genned up on the subject on the Internet, but it would have been dreadful if I had been a bit vulnerable, or maybe very elderly, or with no access to the Internet.
Don't see it as something totally dreadful, but changes you make will hopefully lead to you being generally more healthy.
It will have a big impact on your life if you let it.
Don't let it.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 25-Jan-13 16:20:22

LMR - I am, at the moment, more angry/upset at being told I don't have it then I do. I was just so elated and then dropped from a height, whereas previous to the first phone call I was expecting it, so it wouldn't have made me feel like this.

Sorry, I will reply to everyone else's very helpful advice soon... just a bit cross at the moment and now how have a pounding headache as well. Sigh.

starfishmummy Fri 25-Jan-13 16:32:52

In your position I think I would be asking the Practice Manager to review their procedures for telling people test results. Surely telling someone the test has come back as positive for diabetes should be down to the doctor, not the receptionist, especially as they got it wrong!

girliefriend Fri 25-Jan-13 16:46:04

Hello I am a nurse, that is rubbish that someone rang you with the wrong information and tbh I am shocked that it wasn't a g.p that rang you. I would complain to PALS.

With regards to diet, I always tell patients that a diabetic diet is no different to what anybody elses diet should be. So a healthy, everything in moderation, diet which covers all the main food groups should be fine.

If your blood sugars are 20 shock then you definately will need to be on medication poss insulin. That really has gone past the 'manage with diet and exercise alone' threshold.

You should also be pointed in the direction of a diabetes specialist nurse who will be able to give you lots of advice and hopefully.


girliefriend Fri 25-Jan-13 16:47:26

and hopefully support !! Sorry posted too soon!!

Mynewmoniker Fri 25-Jan-13 17:30:47

Hi MyHead.. I was reading your post with great interest as I have recently been diagnosed as T2. Genetic and/or weight related.

I so recognise your confusion about the conflicting information, recommended diet, the 'safe' numbers and the unaware receptionist.

I'm still angry at the diagnosis and as much as I read on specialist forums I feel I'm still having to sift the info. I was sent on a DESMOND course which I understand all diabetics ge the chance to do. That was helpful. I had one day of pure meltdown where I cried for the whole day but knew I had to do it and have been more accepting.

I'm a person who likes to have the upper hand on illness/conditions and when the specialist diabetes nurse said I couldn't be given a monitor because I would be over testing I felt insulted. We all know it's the cost to the NHS. I went and bought my own but cannot afford to keep buying the lancettes and testing strips. I don't go mad but now feel I'm 'getting it'.

I have had the eye test, the flu jab and a chiropodist appointment.

One plus is that diabetics get lots of free alcohol!

It's rubbed on your arm before you have your blood tests grin

PM me if ever you need to.

Mynewmoniker Fri 25-Jan-13 17:34:04

Oops! Forgot to say, take care with the exercise at the moment. I joined an exercise class and after an hour of, what was for me, rigerous exercise I got home and nearly collapsed with the shakes.

Take it steady.

SCOTCHandWRY Fri 25-Jan-13 18:21:38

shock at that MYHEAD, really you must complain. You have not been getting the best of care IMO but that takes the biscuit!

I am still worried about your headache/lethargy, have you actually told any Dr/nurse about this? Wed is a long way off. Please stop drinking lattes - very blood sugar spiking! and eating other processed carbs, at least until you get you insulin sorted.

I think you need to spend a few days reading up on the condition, the thing is, what is still recommended for diabetics is a very high carb, low fat diet (a normal healthy diet as it would be described), but that's diet which has almost certainly caused your diabetes! Newer thinking (and yes, there is evidence to back it up), is that cutting carbs right back and eating as fresh and natural as possible (with plenty of fat!), gives much better control of blood sugar and so less medication is needed. This is not the advice you will be given and you need to decide for yourself which diet you want to follow - it's your decision.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 25-Jan-13 19:00:16

Hi all

Thank you for your posts smile I'll write more later, but I've just got back in & I have to go out soon (tiny little bit of work - have to take it when it's on offer!), so just a quick update.

I don't think I mentioned before that I moved away from the Drs I was registered with (not too far, about 8 miles) but hadn't changed to anywhere closer as I really never go to the Drs (last time about 5-6 years ago) and it wasn't inconvenient to go to the old one if I needed to.

In amongst the calls today there was some serious tutting about them calling me on a different area code and was I still living there etc so I was already thinking about changing to one near here and thought that if I do have D, having one closer might be easier. Well, todays debacle made it an easy decision.

So I went and registered with the new Drs. I asked if they had any 'sticks to wee on' having explained about the recent dx of D. They said 'not in reception' and that they can't just give them out (etc) anyway, they said they'd have to give me an emergency apt this evening and then I could get some - maybe.

Fortunately they had one 15 minutes later with my new Dr.

She is lovely. Really, really lovely. I briefly explained what had happened and she was astounded that they a) were so blunt and b) rang with the wrong information. I said to her how I'd felt so elated to hear I didn't have it, then so crushed afterwards and she said she totally understood and wasn't at all surprised that I was upset by it.

She asked me to do a urine sample for her to test there aren't any ketones in it but there is 'some' sugar (not a lot). We agree that it's Highly Likely that I do have D, but she has scheduled me in for a fasting test on Tuesday and a whole range of other things to give me a full MOT and get me back in working order smile She's lovely.

We talked about 'stuff' - the bereavement, my redundancy, basically why I'm where I'm at emotionally and physically.

The tests on Tuesday are being done by one of their nurses who specialises in diabetes.

She's declared me her project smile and is determined to restore me to good health - if not quite perfect!

Did I mention that she's lovely? grin

'Old' Dr just rang, he said he didn't have any idea why he was ringing me adn what did I need? He's not the one I saw, but 'my' Dr who I've never met (for some unknown reason they moved me from one Dr to another with no explanation). So I explained what happened today and that I've moved to my 'new' Drs. He didn't say much, except sorry for the inconvenience????? and that it was a waste of time doing the fasting test as the results were conclusive. I don't care, I'm happy to do it.

Anyway he said the results show I have a glucose reading of 15 and the other one (NCiap?? sorry got to run out the door, don't have time to check it out) is 76 when it should be 48-60. I'm sure you all know what he's on about.

I'm going to be late... but I just wanted to give you and update and say although nothing has changed, I feel heard about my health for the first time in about 20 years. I feel OK about getting this sorted and I feel so lucky to have met her...

Thank you all so so much for your support.

I'll be back later on.

LayMizzRarb Fri 25-Jan-13 19:33:26

Do let us know how you get on Tuesday. Pm me if you have any thing niggling. Your GP sounds fab!

girliefriend Fri 25-Jan-13 20:08:08

Glad you have sorted it op smile

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 28-Jan-13 18:35:32

Sorry - RL is a bit crazy at the moment! I've hardly been in, let alone near the laptop.

I have just read through the thread again (bloody hell, half of it reads as though english is my 3rd language not my first!! blush).

Thank you all so very much for all of your posts, they have all really helped me.

I am going for my fasting blood tests tomorrow so will know a bit more I guess when they get those results back.

I am going to try really hard to push for managing it with diet, weight loss & exercise, but if she says I need to take the meds I will. She knows I want to work towards coming off them if I do start to take them and I'm confident that she will fully support that.

She's going to make me an appointment with their dietician, but I've a feeling she's just going to push the high carbs route, which I'm not sure is the best approach. I'm going to do as much reading as I can between now and then, so I can back myself up if it comes to it.

Does anyone have a link to a good Low carb/low GI website to back up the theory that it's the way to go?

Thanks again everyone thanks

knackeredoutmum Mon 28-Jan-13 19:15:20

actually I very strongly think you should start to take control yourself right now.

Yes you will have to wait or the fasting blood test results, then subsequent doctors appointment.

You could buy a glucose meter today (ask for one with the most economical sticks), from almost any supermarket and start testing beore every meal, half an hour and 1.5 hours afterwards.

In this way you will very quickly see what effect, eating toast or crumpets for example has on YOU and YOUR body.

Everyone is different, and if you get higher sugars eating toast and cereals, and lower eating eggs and veggie sausages, then you have your answer right there.

Mynewmoniker Mon 28-Jan-13 19:52:13

I had/have a lot of support via here:

Bramblesinafield Mon 28-Jan-13 19:53:54

The accucheck range with fastclix lancet seems to be the most 'comfortable' lancet. My son is t1 and we all check ourselves from time to time, but not as much as him!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 28-Jan-13 21:32:55

Knackered - thank you. I'm seeing the nurse tomorrow, so I'll see what she says about all the stuff - but I may well buy one at the chemist after.

I'm dreading the self testing tbh. I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I give (gave??) blood and I hate the finger prick test, it's going to take some serious effort to do that at least 9 times a day sad Though I have to say, it didn't seem quite as bad when the pharmacist did it the other day... is that to do with where they do it or the equipment they use?

Can diabetics give blood? (on meds? on insulin?)

MyNew - Thanks smile I'll go and have a look there now.

Bramble - I'll bear that in mind!!

LayMizzRarb Mon 28-Jan-13 22:48:56

I have an accucheck, and you will be fine using the lancet. It is about the length of a pen, you put the end next to your finger tip, no need to apply pressure, press the bottom on the side, and it fires then retracts a tiny needle. As you're not actually jabbing it in your finger, you don't the exact moment it's going in IYSWIM :-)

LayMizzRarb Mon 28-Jan-13 22:49:47

press the BUTTON on the side!

ElectricSheep Mon 28-Jan-13 23:31:59

How GI foods work

GI Index

some meal ideas

More recipes

Hope these are helpful.

Generally, I think the motto is 'everything in moderation' and your stomach is about the same size as your cupped hand - so meals bigger than that will stretch it!

ElectricSheep Mon 28-Jan-13 23:33:07

And this time with the links working!

How GI foods work

GI Index

some meal ideas

More recipes

Hope these are helpful.

Generally, I think the motto is 'everything in moderation' and your stomach is about the same size as your cupped hand - so meals bigger than that will stretch it!

oldraver Mon 28-Jan-13 23:38:35

Diabetics can give blood so long as they are not on Insulin.. and any medication has to of been stable for 3 months

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 06:58:45

LMR - I'm disappointed, I was quite looking forward to a bottom to press on the side grin. (Thanks.)

OldRaver - that's good smile I had to put it off in Dec & early this month as I was feeling so crap. Partly I didn't want to risk giving whatever I had to anyone else and partly because I just felt so crap. The previous 2 sessions were really really awful and I was very faint afterwards for a long time. If the diet/meds sort me out, it will be good to resume giving blood.

ElectricSheep - thank you smile I am really after web sites that 'prove' it's the way to go for D T2, research etc.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 08:17:38

Right - off to do fasting bloods smile

LayMizzRarb Tue 29-Jan-13 08:40:10

It's not the end of the world if you are diagnosed; Sir Steve Redgrave has won Olympic medals, despite having diabetes!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 13:31:34

LMR - I don't think there's a shadow of doubt that I have diabetes. Random blood results of 15 is pretty conclusive. It's just now a matter of how it's managed :/

Back tomorrow (3pm) for the results and weight/height/blood pressure etc.

The nurse said it would certainly be meds - probably Metformin, if not insulin injections, that doing it through diet/exercise/weight loss is not an option.

She gave me a book about diabetes (photocopied leaflet type thing) and a different diet guide 'Dietary Information and Advice for Diabetes' and she said the same as what's in there - carbs = good, fat = bad. To cut out sugar (chocolate, sweets, fizzy drinks, biscuits etc - most of which I never eat anyway, the only thing I do sometimes have is chocolate and tbh not having it isn't a big deal at all) and JUNK - now I was a litttttttle pissed off as she didn't even ask what I normally eat - just looked at me and assumed I ate a lot of JUNK and takeaways and I don't. I fully admit my diet hasn't been the greatest in a while (since my bereavement really) and I know I need to eat more veg etc, but I don't eat JUNK very often at all. A takeaway type meal once a month - maybe, if that.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 14:47:49

Oh my, this is going to be an uphill battle with the nurse isn't it sad

It's all starch starch starch - you must have potatoes/pasta/bread with every meal, snack on fruit... etc.

It just doesn't make any sense?? Why are they still pushing this?

I mean, hell, if that worked it would be brilliant - but come on - eating those carbs is surely going to have your blood glucose going up and down like a yo yo??

Screaminabdabs Tue 29-Jan-13 14:51:57

Very interesting thread, OP, thanks for all the info, sorry you're not well, though. Following your story with interest, thanks again.

Mynewmoniker Tue 29-Jan-13 18:33:39

I do without as much carbs as I can get away with OP. I follow the advice from the diabetes forums and sooooooo many say avoid the NHS 'healthy diet' way. I'm not medically trained and this is not advice but it's working for me.

I'll PM you my 'handle' if you want so that you can have a look at my particular experience since November if you want.

pootlebug Tue 29-Jan-13 18:39:18

I would recommend this book Which is written by a doctor who specialises in diabetes and who is also a diabetic (though type 1). It has a lot of info on both type 1 and type 2 and why he recommends a low carb diet for both. The downside is that the specific meal plans he suggests are crap...but there is so much info on low-carb diets now if you search paleo, primal etc that you should be able to find a better source for those bits.

DH is type 1 and switched to low carb about 4 months ago after reading this. It has made a significant difference as to how well controlled (I.e. not stupidly high or too low) his blood sugar is.

I read this the other day. You'd need to discuss it with the experts.

Mynewmoniker Tue 29-Jan-13 19:16:42

Have a look on the diabetes forums with regard to the Newcastle Diet Sauv. Some were concerned about so few calories and the impact afterwards.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 19:25:49

Screamin smile Do you think you might be diabetic?

MyNew - I think that's exactly what I'm going to do. My dilemma is whether I tell the nurse that or not, or just nod a lot and do my own thing without discussing it. She wasn't exactly warm & chatty today and I felt very judged, which was quite upsetting after my apt with the Dr last week - I wish I was just seeing her tbh. The nurse is their 'diabetes' nurse, so I can't just choose another one sad If you could PM me your handle that would be great - thanks! smile

InAFlap - I have ordered the 'Think like a pancreas' book, hopefully it will be here by the weekend.

Pootle - have you read ^ ? If you have, do you think it's worth getting both. I could do without spending another £20 tbh, but if it's worth it I will of course. That's great about your DH. I've read loads today and my head is about to explode!

Sauvignon - I read that a couple of days ago, it's really interesting isn't it. I'm going to read up on it as much as I can because I think it's well worth a go. Judging by today's handouts, I'll be doing it unsupported (by the nurse) though. I don't drink much at all these days, but your name always makes me quite fancy a wine though smile but that's a particularly bad idea right now!

My MIL is easily controlling her diabetes, med free, with a low carb diet. Her Doctor says he is not allowed to recommend it to people but he cannot fault how well a properly followed low carb diet brings blood sugar down to normal levels. hmm

I would strongly suggest that you get hold of this book. It is fascinating and has proved invaluable.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 21:20:34

Whippoorwhill (are you an Oklamhoma fan?) I'm unsurprised about the Dr, there is so much wrong with our health system and the restrictions and incentives given to Drs sad

Do you happen to know what your MIL's blood levels were when she found out she had diabetes and is she overweight?

That's the same book Pootle recommended! smile Looks like I'll need to buy that too. I ordered the 'Think like a pancreas' one recommended earlier in the thread. There are so many of them it's hard to know which to buy (with limited funds else I'd buy them all and probably confuse myself further).

BIWI Tue 29-Jan-13 21:35:19

Myhead - I'm sorry to read all your woes on this thread! I've hesitated about posting several times, because I'm not a medic, but I can't read any more without posting! I'm a low carber, for weight/general health reasons, rather than because I have diabetes. But over the last few months I've read a lot about low carbing and how it can work for diabetics.

you might find this blog interesting

Unfortunately, the advice given to diabetics seems to be, as you have already come to realise, directly contradictory. The 'conventional' advice is lots of carbs. My dad is a type 2 diabetic, who now has to inject insulin, as his sugar levels were spiralling out of control. Yet he is still told to eat his carbs ...

Re food/cooking, whilst the Bootcamp threads on MN are about weight loss, there is also a fab recipe thread which might inspire you!

butterfingerz Tue 29-Jan-13 21:38:56

I might go for a diabetes test after reading this. Im 28, a normal weight, could do with more exercise but just have various symptoms that I put down to various separate things but could be symptoms of diabetes and its never crossed my mind. Though my paternal gm died of complications of type 2 diabetes but she was in her 70s.

I've suffered with dry itchy eyes, headaches, thirst and frequent weeing but only at night, nerve pain in arms and hands, chest pains and crippling tiredness after eating, thinning hair. The thinning hair did make me think low thyroid or that its postpartum but ds is 18 months now and still losing hair. Guess there's only one way to find out!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 21:52:28

BIWI - Hi smile Thanks for posting and for the links, I'll go and read them in a minute. Your Bootcamp thread was already on my mind to have a look at!

It's a shame your Dad is locked into the NHS thinking - I think for many people older than us, Drs are often still 'Gods' and going against their advice is Just Not Done sad

Fortunately I don't think of them as Gods and have no issue with going against their outdated recommendations! grin

Butter - You should go. Whatever is causing all of that is best caught sooner rather than later. I wish I'd gone sooner instead of burying my head in the sand, but, tbh - after my bereavement I just wasn't up to it, I didn't care really... I wish I'd had the Dr I have now - I would have gone sad Let us know when you have made the apt OK.

BIWI Tue 29-Jan-13 21:58:32

Reminds me of the old joke:

Q: What's the difference between God and a doctor?
A: God doesn't think he's a doctor


MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 22:09:29

Definitely grin

MyHead, not an Oklahoma fan. It's a H P Lovecraft reference. I can't even remember the thread that started it now but the name stuck. smile

Her blood level was really high, something like 33 I think. She went straight on the diet that the nurse gave her (low fat, high fibre) and the next time they tested it was about 25. She was prescribed Metformin which brought it down a bit more. Meanwhile I did a lot of reading and put all of us on a low carb diet. I'm over-weight and my husband was fat and pre-diabetic. Since the end of February MIL has lost 3 stone and her fasting bloods were done this week and it was 4.5. Finger prick 2 hours after meals is generally giving 5 or 6, occasionally 7 if the food was slightly more carby. Blood pressure and cholesterol are both normal, having been high previously.

I've lost 3 stone, husband lost 4 stone, his blood sugar is now fine and sleep apnea has gone.

The Low Carb Bootcamp is fab. Lots of support if you do go down the low carb route.

pootlebug Tue 29-Jan-13 22:34:54

I haven't read 'think like a pancreas'. Though I have just ordered it! It sounds From the reviews that it covers quite different stuff to the Bernstein book

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 12:14:15

Whippoorwhill - that's brilliant smile You are all doing really really well! Very, very impressive! I spent last night and this morning reading the bootcamp threads, I started on the first one... so I've a way to go! grin

I have to see the nurse this afternoon, I don't know whether to accept the metformin or whether to say I want to try with diet/exercise/weight loss first? I'm going to go and read about (metformin) now. How long was your MIL on Metformin for and were there any issues about coming off of it?

I'm keen to low carb rather than the std high starchy carbs/low fat regime most nurses on the NHS seem to promote, but I'm not sure I want to or should get into ketosis.

Is your MIL in ketosis or has she just lowered her carbs?

Pootle - I heard a big thump on the hallway rug, hoped it was my book - but it was just junk mail sad

Mynewmoniker Wed 30-Jan-13 15:53:30

How did you get on with the nurse MyHead? I hope you give it some! grin

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 16:49:31

MNM - thanks for asking smile Hmm well....

She agrees with me that I've probably had it for years sad and quite possibly since my liver problem or before - so we're looking at 20 plus years. It would have been nice if just one of the Drs I've seen in the last 20 years would have tested me for diabetes when I was almost crying with exhaustion. Sigh. I've asked in the past to be tested for anything and everything that could be causing the tiredness, lethargy, itchy/dry eyes - they were taking blood anyway, why not test for diabetes??

My thyroid is OK apparently - 2.1 - though when I looked that up, I couldn't see what it related to?? Any ideas??

My liver results are mostly OK - one of the readings is a little bit out (ALT at 57), but we didn't really talk about it.

My kidney results from the blood test were 'OK', but my urine test wasn't back. I have no idea which was testing what, so not sure which results we don't have - or what difference they'll make. I'll see if I can find out if they are back later on as well.

My blood pressure was high 170/100. I had it done twice last week and it was OK... on the high side of normal, but still OK. I didn't write down what it was though, so I can't remember. I need to go next week and put my arm in their machine and it will log it on my file.

My cholesterol is 5.6 which she said if I didn't have diabetes would be fine, but as I do she wanted me on statins - I said that I didn't want to take them. She said I should as I have high indicators for stroke, heart attacks etc but that she can't make me. I said we'd review it when I do my next lot of tests and will reconsider then. I have read a lot about cholesterol & statins and the side effects of statins. I'm not convinced they're a good idea. But I will look into it properly next time if my cholesterol isn't low enough.

[I just don't trust the medical profession to 'get it right' and so prefer to make my own decisions - rightly or wrongly?!]

My average BGL was 9.8

My fasting sugar was 10.9

My BMI is high - I already knew what it was - I'm not under any illusion that I'm in great shape.

She has started me off on 2 x 500mg of Metformin. (1 with breakfast and 1 with dinner) - she doesn't think it will be enough, but needs to start low.

I'm still not sure whether to take them or not? I am very tempted not to take them, to re-do the bloods in 3 months and see how they are. See how much of an effect I can have on them with exercise, diet & weight loss.

Any thoughts anyone???

I asked her about self testing and she said not to. She said I should make the most of not needing to. She said that weight was the determining factor of diabetes, not diet. She said that it was pointless to check BG after eating various things as it doesn't tell you anything. We discussed oats/porridge and she said it's highly recommended for diabetics - I said that it doesn't work for everyone and lots of people have bg spikes after eating it. She just sighed a bit and said to see the dietician. Low sugar, low fat, high fibre as per the NHS booklet!! No discussion to be had.

Next dietician apt is the 20th of February!! I'm glad I don't actually care what she says grin I only agreed to see her so that they feel I'm doing everything I can/they suggest.

She (the nurse) said I need to stop eating pies, cakes, sausage rolls etc - now, having pointed out that I don't actually eat any of those things twice yesterday and once today - I think I can safely say she a) doesn't listen b) thinks obesity causes diabetes - end of.

She checked my feet and was totally happy with them.

She has referred me for an eye test - this probably wont happen for a couple/few weeks.

I'm going to see if I can get a copy of the results. When I lived overseas it was never a problem and I have all the copies of the bloods I did when I had the liver problem. In the UK they seem far more keen to keep you in the dark and treat you like an infant sad

I hope all that makes sense, I don't have the strength to proof it now grin

BIWI Wed 30-Jan-13 17:12:28



Why don't you try a couple of weeks of Bootcamp, without any meds, and see what happens? A sort of compromise? If key markers/scores don't improve, then maybe that's the time to go for the Metformin?

(Obviously I'm not a medic, etc, etc - but it doesn't sound like you're very keen on immediate 'intervention' via drugs)

I don't understand why she should be worried about your cholesterol levels - and there's a lot of controversy about cholesterol as well. Again, it's worth reading the stuff that Dr Briffa has written on his blog about it (as well as statins), if you haven't already.

BIWI Wed 30-Jan-13 17:14:27
BIWI Wed 30-Jan-13 17:20:17
LayMizzRarb Wed 30-Jan-13 17:20:20

Slightly concerned that you're considering not taking the metformin that has been prescribed.
I would err on the side of caution and take the medical advice that you have been given by someone who is qualified, has plenty of experience, and knows your medical history, Rather than self medicate, based on information you have read on the Internet. Blogs and advice on MN and other forums can be helpful, but people writing on them are generally not medically qualified. Diabetes is a chronic illness and can be manged perfectly with the help of medical professionals. You wouldn't look to cure heart trouble/cancer/kidney disease based on information you read on the Internet. Diabetes is no different.
Would you let a group of strangers in the pub convince you to go against a doctors advice?

Urgh, that sounds like a frustrating visit. I'm seconding BIWI. Try low carbing for a few weeks and see how you get on. The side effects of Metformin are quite extreme. My MIL had sudden and urgent diarrhoea after a dose as her main side effect, to the point that she couldn't really leave the house. She also felt unbelievably tired and achey and was struggling to walk up the hill to the house. She stopped taking them after two weeks when it was clear that the diet was working great.

I did ask her if she had any advice she wanted to pass on and she says ignore them when they tell you not to test. You need to know how food affects you as everyone is different. If you don't have a needle phobia and can afford it then get a test meter. The first one she had was this one. She has since badgered her doctor to prescribe one.

She is also refusing statins. There seems to be no evidence that they do anything but harm if you are a woman.

I'm rushing this a bit as I'm supposed to have left already, I will try and get some proper links later but check out Dr Briffa, Gary Taubes and the Mark's Daily Apple websites and keep reading the Bootcamp stuff. There is some fantastic info in there.

Good luck.

Mynewmoniker Wed 30-Jan-13 17:54:00

*"Would you let a group of strangers in the pub convince you to go against a doctors advice? "

Yes I would, as Drs aren't God. They do get things wrong or have a financial agenda.

I am not medically trained but neither am I an idiot. My gut instinct has served me well.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 17:55:07 Andreas Eenfeldt

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 17:59:27

Bollocks - just wrote a reply to BIWI and MN ate it, all but the half link?!

Well done for making it through that long post smile Not surprised you are exhausted BIWI!

I have always said that I have a feeling that 'cholesterol' is going to be one of those medical things we look back on and think WTAF were we thinking? Andreas Eendfeldt has a very interesting seminar on it here LINK It's long, but very interesting.

I have read the stuff Biffa wrote - but a few months ago, I'll go and have another read, as well as the links - thanks!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 18:01:31

BIWI - I'm not sure how accurate the measurements would be just self testing for a few days rather than a 3 month fasting blood test - it's one of the things I need to try to find out.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 18:12:25

LMR - thank you for your concern smile I would dispute the fact that the nurse is actually terribly well qualified in the treatment of diabetes and the only medial history she has is what I have told her. The people on blogs/MN etc may not all be medically qualified but many of them are and those who aren't are generally living with the condition themselves and know what helps them and what doesn't. I believe the NHS has its own agenda with regards to our health - their pocket comes first. They aren't interested in us individually and generally aren't interested in research if it goes against the old fashioned food pyramid.

I agree that Diabetes is a chronic illness and I agree it can be managed with the help of medical professionals, however, I don't think that those employed by the NHS (on the whole) are given the information, budget or anything else to help regarding diet etc. and are often, actually, told very clearly to stick to the outdated 'guidelines' even if they think otherwise!

Plenty of diabetics have proven that high starchy carbs & low fat have made their condition worse, not better and it makes sense.

Would you let a group of strangers in the pub convince you to go against a doctors advice?

Yes - if those people were medical professionals & people living with diabetes smile

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 18:27:31

Whippoorwhill It was frustrating in that she was totally unprepared to 'allow' me to try to do this with diet/exercise/weightloss first. I would have been prepared to go as often as needed and do whatever urine/bloods etc she wanted to monitor it. So I just accepted the prescription. She can't actually make me take it.

The side effects are charming aren't they - she told me about them and said that if they don't clear up within a month or 6 weeks to let her know.... so she thinks it's fine to have excessive wind and diorreah for 4-6 weeks?? I know I might not get that, but it was just the attitude that went with it.

What made your MIL feel sure the diet was working??

Thank you for asking her what she would advise - tell her thank you very much. She's strengthening my resolve to see if I can sort this without meds. If I have had it for years, I can't see that a couple of weeks, or months more is going to make that big a difference really.

I will get a monitor and do some testing. Even if I do start the Metformin, I wouldn't until next week as I have a couple of things on this weekend & I do not want to run the risk of starting up with the side effects miles away from home in a very public place! shock

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

It's the first I've heard of the Mark's Daily Apple website - I'll go and have a look at that too. (I have read lots of Biffa/Taubes and will go back and read more). As well as the Bootcamp of course!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 18:34:18

MyNewMoniker - that's pretty much my thoughts on it too.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are lots of good Drs out there, but they are outnumbered by the 'not good' ones. They have their hands tied by the NHS to hand out outdated information and I suspect most, if not all, of them would offer different advice if they had the time, resources and energy to fight the NHS take on things sad

Patients don't get the best care, they get affordable care - which varies from postcode to postcode.

Mynewmoniker Wed 30-Jan-13 18:56:19

Interesting youtube post MyHead... I follow the low carb but use low cal butter/spread and yoghurt.

Lots of people seem to follow this LCHF diet successfuly.

It was an interesting piece about the Atkins cookies...much like Weight Watchers ready made meals having more calories than 'normal' foods and tons of additives.

A slightly different take on the metformin. It may be worth considering taking it for a while to kick-start things, and then getting off it again. At the moment you are very very resistant to insulin because high blood sugar makes you more resistant (vicious circle). If you get it down (both blood glucose and resistance) it will be easier to keep it down. So taking metformin for a bit can fast-track that. And then when you're getting good results you can lower the dose down to nothing.

Testing - silly doctor. But you do have to test a lot to be able to tell what foods have what effect, and there is a lot of randomness involved. Insanity is apparently "doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results" - well that's diabetes as well!

You can get a free meter here - although it is buying the pots of strips that really costs, not the meter.

There is an awful lot of really rubbish advice peddled about how to treat Type 2, and a lot of it is given by the NHS. My very thin FIL was told to eat low-fat high-carb and that he could eat as much fruit as he liked because fruit sugar was "good". (After a while they worked out he is actually Type 1 and he got to see the docs who know what they're talking about).

Mynewmoniker Wed 30-Jan-13 20:00:04

OK, Bertha, can you tell me if that's the time you begin to get free prescriptions once you are prescribed Metformin?

Mynewmoniker Wed 30-Jan-13 20:03:03

If you are a registered with diabetes and have been instructed to test at least once a day by your healthcare professional

MyHead has not been told this. Could she still apply, Bertha?

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 21:39:04

MyNew - did you manage to listen to the whole thing? I was surprised when I clicked on it (someone here gave me the link - thank you!) that it was an hour long, I was expecting it to be about 10 mins, but it was so interesting it didn't seem like an hour!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 21:43:34

MNM - it's as soon as you are diagnosed as being diabetic, all your prescriptions are free (yay me - not). So yes, the Metformin I got today was free, but it doesn't mean I can get strips or a meter just because I want one - unfortunately sad

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 21:50:35

Oh and of course, that wasn't even straight forward.

I took my prescription to the chemist and the girl asked if I needed to pay - I said 'No, I've been diagnosed as being diabetic so my prescriptions are free'. The Pharmacist (who was the one who did the initial finger prick) was there and she asked if I'd filled out the form, I said 'No' she said that it was OK but that I needed to check that the surgery were doing one, or I could get a fine if they check...

So I called the surgery and the snipey receptionist said 'Well, did you fill a form out hmm you would know that wouldn't you??' (in a very snipey tone) so I said I didn't but I was told the nurse would have done it (I presumed in the same way she's referred me for the eye test!?) so I have to go back and fill out a form.

If I hadn't already known about the exemption for diabetics who knows how long I'd have been paying for prescriptions for?

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 30-Jan-13 22:05:10

Bertha - I had considered the help that metformin might be to losing a bit of weight (the flip side of the coin!) but I didn't realise If you get it down (both blood glucose and resistance) it will be easier to keep it down. So taking metformin for a bit can fast-track that and that's certainly worth considering - thank you.

When you say there's a lot of randomness involved - can you try to explain that a little bit more? I just figured that if I ate oats for breakfast and my bg shot up and did it another day and my bg shot up - then avoiding oats would be a good idea? No?

Thanks for the link to the meter. I'm going to see which test strips are a 'good price' and I'm going to see how much the strips are for the Accucheck fast clix lancet' one that I was recommended as being a good lancet to use. I'll look at the one you've linked to as well.

How is your FIL doing now?

As for the diet. I think if I was already a good weight then it would be easier to just look at what's best for my sugar/glucose level, but the fact is I need to lose weight, a lot of weight, so I'm trying to both 'quickly diet' and 'find a diet for life' - which should be similar I know, but a shorter term more drastic cut back would be fine... this afternoon I stood in the supermarket looking around and beyond 'watery' vegetables had no bloody idea what so ever, what to buy. I could have cried. THIS IS FOR LIFE keeps rattling around in my head. I'm surrounded by 'normal people' food and I just want to be part of that world again. Sigh.

BIWI Thu 31-Jan-13 14:04:49

MyHead - chin up! It's going to take you time to adjust.

Why not try Bootcamp? The first two weeks are pretty strict and you could see a quick/big loss in that time. And as it's about low carbing, that should also help your blood sugar levels.

Mynewmoniker Thu 31-Jan-13 15:48:33

I'm going to look at boot camp as well smile

BIWI Thu 31-Jan-13 15:50:36

<another victim>

BIWI Thu 31-Jan-13 15:50:42


Mynewmoniker Thu 31-Jan-13 15:54:45

BIWI I ony said I'd have a look grin

BIWI Thu 31-Jan-13 15:55:30

Yeah, yeah ...

Mynewmoniker Thu 31-Jan-13 16:52:09

OK BIWI Got the rules.

1. When does week one of the next camp start.
2. What's with the carrots twice? Old or new? Which ones which number.

Marking my place as DH has just been diagnosed with Type 2 - he had a reading of 21.7. I am sure I should get myself checked as I am overweight and have other symptoms.

Printing this thread off so that DH can read all the dietary advice - and hopefully bloody well take heed.

Mynewmoniker Thu 31-Jan-13 19:14:01

It would be interesting to have his experience EPBAB. Please share.

toomuchpoo Thu 31-Jan-13 19:29:28

please please if people are not going to go to the doctors, at least get them to home test as this is a step in the right direction

BIWI Thu 31-Jan-13 19:48:42

Mynewmoniker - no idea when the next one is going to start. Just pile in and join us on this one. Lots of people are still doing Bootcamp.

Re the carrots - I have no idea what makes a carrot young or old (!), so I always assume they are the higher carb count. (Frankly I avoid them pretty much)

Mynewmoniker Thu 31-Jan-13 21:21:13

I'll just finish this jar of Nutella grin

if I ate oats for breakfast and my bg shot up and did it another day and my bg shot up - well yes, if your bg shoots up every time you eat a food thats easy. But it won't. Some days you'll eat oats and be really low after. Other days you'll carefully avoid oats and shoot up. You have to keep a lot of records and look at trends.

BG is affected by stress, excitement, worry, exercise just now, exercise yesterday, illness, immune system fighting off an illness that you haven't noticed, tiredness, a whole load of things. A food eaten in isolation will have a different effect to one eaten in combination with a whole load of other things. A large meal takes longer to digest than a short one. A high-fat meal gives a double-whammy by slowing the digestion down and then by making you more insulin-resistant 5 hours later.

There is just a lot going on and it can be hard to trace a BG reading back to its root. Admittedly my experience is with a Type 1 5yo so for you it will be a lot easier (no growth hormone for a start). Although your menstrual cycle will have an effect!

We use that FastClix lancet with the Abbot meter, cos we like that lancet better. The meter is the best for us cos it takes a tiny blood sample (0.3 rather than 0.6 like the Accu-chek ones) but adults prob get blood out easier than 5yos.

I do think you're right and you should concentrate on the weight loss first and blood sugar next. Although if you're low-carbing that'd do both, wouldn't it? But you may find if you can get your weight down, and get over the initial insulin-resistance caused by high bgs, it will get easier (because you're still making insulin, just not enough cos you're so resistant to it at the moment). So if you can get your body sensitive to insulin again, you might find that you make enough insulin for your needs again.

I will share, but I mentioned low carbing to him tonight and he looked at me as though I had gone mad. He is currently cutting down on sugary stuff, not that he ate that much before and only eating three meals a day. We don't eat red meat so he seems to be existing on veggie mince and baked beans at the moment.

I think we will concentrate on weight loss first. From skim reading this thread the food situation seems so very, very complicated.


mirry2 Fri 01-Feb-13 01:41:47

OP if I read on of your posts correctly you said you had a fasting Bg level of about 11?
If that were me I would not be taking metformin but instead trying to get my bg levels down to at least a 7 through exercise and diet. I would also buy a Bg monitor and checkseveral times a day to see when bg levels were highest and what difference a bit of exercise makis making.

I don't take statins or metformin as both give me stomach cramps. I have told my gp that I am not completely stupid and will start metformin if my bg level rises (she assures me it will) and if I start getting diabetic symptoms. My gp says that my body will get used to the metformin after a few weeks but I'm not happy about taking medication on those terms. Menwhile I keep my blood pressure under control and try to eat a healthy diet.

mirry2 Sat 02-Feb-13 10:41:58

I seem to have killed this thread.

PenguinBear Sat 02-Feb-13 11:52:20

Can anyone explain this?:

Blood on one morning 7.9 without eating for about 7 hours.

In true evening, spiked to 13 after dinner but within 3 hours had dropped down to 6.7. confused

SCOTCHandWRY Sat 02-Feb-13 16:29:20

Context info Penguinbear? Are you diagnosed diabetic, on medication or insulin? Are you self testing for other reasons? Fasting blood sugar is too high and it spiked too high after your meal...

BIWI Sat 02-Feb-13 17:29:38

... and presumably it also depended on what you ate?

SCOTCHandWRY Sat 02-Feb-13 17:45:46

Biwi, only to a certain extent - no matter what you eat, blood sugar should not go above a certain level, and should not be above a certain baseline level hours after eating... If they are, there are issues that need to be dealt with... Assuming the tests have been done correctly, these results a a bit on the high side, regardless of what was eaten...

BIWI Sat 02-Feb-13 17:46:37

That's interesting. I didn't know that. I assumed that something like fruit juice would have more of an impact on blood sugars.

BIWI Sat 02-Feb-13 17:47:17

(NB my father is a diabetic, which is why I'm interested)

oldraver Sat 02-Feb-13 17:59:25

OP... You should only get free prescriptions if you are taking medication for Diabetes... you shouldn't get them if you are Diabetic Diet Controlled.

SCOTCHandWRY Sat 02-Feb-13 18:28:36

Biwi, orange juice or similar high gi foods will spike the blood higher and faster than other foods, but in a normal person with good insulin response, blood sugar will not go above about 8ish, even after a very carby high gi meal, and should return to around baseline of 5ish within about 3 hours - higher than this suggests insulin resistance is developing (low carb diet is great for reversing that as you know!), however if a person is diagnosed diabetic, they may have higher figures than this, depending on how it is being controlled and what they are eating.

I have a number of diabetic relatives, and had gestational diabetes in one pregnancy but not subsequent pregnancies thanks to ditching sugar and I now take a keen interest in NOT developing diabetes myself smile by low carb diet and also regular self testing days every few months... With tweaks to my diet, blood sugars have dropped from the very high end of normal range to the low end of normal grin.

Dottiespots Sat 02-Feb-13 18:39:20

Hi....sorry havnt read entire thread but following on from friend was very very overweight and had diabetes which she took tablets for. Anyway after years and years (prob 20) she decided that she would lose the weight once and for all. She too followed a very low carb diet and now she no longer needs any medication at all and has lost most of her weight and life is much better. (think there was a new man somewhere that sparked off the weight loss too!!!)

Dottiespots Sat 02-Feb-13 18:41:00

Sorry....just wanted to add that it was the low carb that she says brought down her diabetes and blood pressure. She still low carbs now but does have the occasional treat.

SCOTCHandWRY Sat 02-Feb-13 18:49:38

Awsangel, yes, many people have had the same success with low carb and reversal of diabetes- some very enlightened drs are even recommending this as an option but that's not common in the UK at presenthmm

Dottiespots Sat 02-Feb-13 18:57:33

SCOTCH.......Low carb actually seems to be the best way to reduce and in alot of cases cure alot of ailments. People seem to be making a real connection between the increase in diseases and the diet that we have been eating for the last 30 years and realising that the so called Lo Fat dieting that we have been brainwashed to eat is in fact turning out to be the worst diet ever .

SCOTCHandWRY Sat 02-Feb-13 19:09:16

I agree Angel! In fact I'm one of those nuts gringringrin who, having researched it a lot over many years (starting with low carb but more recently have gone paleo/lchf), am now convinced its not simply just carbs, but that grain carbs are particularly damaging to human health, and that we should not be eating them at all for many reasons!!!

Dottiespots Sat 02-Feb-13 20:10:10

Your not nuts just very informed. And well done on eating paleo. Have you seen the site Palomg??? its brill.

SCOTCHandWRY Sat 02-Feb-13 23:07:36

smile Lol, people usually look at me like I have 2 heads when I start on the "gluten/grains" are killing us all slowly type comments grin

Not seen that particular site, will check it out now. My main go-to sites are and, both have plenty of links to relevant peer reviewed papers - I do like a bit of science!

Mynewmoniker Sun 03-Feb-13 17:02:25

SCOTCHandWRY I thank you for your knowledge and praise you for having the forthought to prevent the diabetes getting you.

I wish I'd listened 2 years ago sad

I'm going to try to get my numbers down ASAP.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Sun 03-Feb-13 18:41:58

Hi all

Thank you for all of your posts.

Sorry, RL has been far too demanding since Wednesday!!

Just off to catch up now smile

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Sun 03-Feb-13 19:04:50

BIWI - thank you for the Bootcamp invite smile I've been reading all of the threads since the beginning - I'm only at week 7 grin (I've been reading lots of the links and tons of other stuff on diabetes).

I've been LCing ish, but right now I don't want to sign up for it. I have been really strict about what I've eaten in this past 10 days or so (in so far as the only processed carbs I've had have been 2 slices of this incredibly thin organic rye & other grain stuff (I'd call it bread, but it's nothing like it!) for breakfast with avocado and a small amount of cheese (about 25g). It's actually really high in carbs (the same as regular bread I think) but it is better in other ways. It goes lovely and crunchy, with avocado and cheese I don't feel at all hungry or deprived. This morning I only had the avocado and cheese, but I don't know how it compared (keeping me filled up as I had an early lunch with a friend in a cafe).

I did OK in the cafe - I had a small veggie sausage, beans & mushrooms. Unfortunately the sausages weren't the quorn/soy ones etc I was expecting, but a sort of vegetable mix rolled up. Peas, carrots and either rice or potato - it was small and it was nice, I ate the mushrooms and only about a third of the beans (2 tbs probably?).

I want to find a way that works for me that I feel is what's suiting me, rather than a set of rules someone else has written - I want to feel it's all my choice because it works for me, not that I'm dong it because I've said I will. I don't want to be 'on a diet' or even following a 'WOE' that has 'rules' and feel like I'm cheating. Does that make sense?

I also want to get a meter and do some test with some wholegrain carbs as well.

I feel that the ketosis inducing low carb regime is just a bit too restrictive me as a vegetarian that doesn't eat eggs.

I am fully aware that what 'works best for me' may end up being Bootcamp Lite grin

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Sun 03-Feb-13 19:15:21

Bertha - thank you, that's really interesting. I thought that testing at set times after meals etc would be more 'telling' than it appears it would actually be... I guess I assumed that due to insulin dependent diabetics testing and dosing themselves accordingly, the tests would be more helpful.

Exit - Hi smile It does seem very difficult to get the diet 'just right' but from everything I've read, low carbing seems the best route. I completely fail to see how simple carbs can be the answer!? As much as that would be nice grin I hope your DH does some reading and can come to that conclusion himself. I fear following the NHS advice will just get him (and anyone else) a fast track to being insulin depedent.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Sun 03-Feb-13 19:19:25

Mirry - Yes, my FBG was 10.9 and my HbA1c was 9.3. I haven't started the Metformin yet and I'm hesitant to do so... I'm reading more first. I'd far prefer to control it with diet for as long as possible then go onto Metformin or something later on if absolutely necessary.... but I'm still researching.

I also need to understand more about blood sugar v blood glucose & exercise. It's a bit confusing.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Sun 03-Feb-13 19:27:15

Awsangel & Scotch smile

Mynewmoniker Sun 03-Feb-13 20:07:01

Just have one teeny tiny potato and one grain of rice. Then you wont be lying when she asks if you're having your cabs!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Sun 03-Feb-13 20:32:49

Oh - I don't have any problem lying to her grin and I wont even need to really, she wont ask for any details and if she does I can honestly say I've cut out all 'bad' stuff, cut down on cheese/butter and I'm eating more veg...

isithometime Mon 04-Feb-13 09:54:40

If think youre thinking of trying without the metformin then I would say you could do with a monitor asap, you can get it delivered next day from loads of online places.

Also, I know its a gradual process to get your head around, but heading off diabetes by diet and exercise, when metformin has been prescribed, really is an all or nothing situation. If youre not ready to put everything into it then I dont think you will get the results you want and your body needs - the monitor will help you to see a clear pattern so you can assess how well things are going

sazpops Mon 04-Feb-13 10:06:00

exit and myhead - I posted at the beginning of this thread to say my husband had recently been diagnosed and was low carbing, so this is just an update to say we're really not finding it too hard to cut the carbs right down, with really good results on his readings.

Breakfast cereals and porridge are definitely out for him, he has two slices of either Burgen soya and linseed or brown soda bread with cheese or peanut butter, or eggs at the weekend.

Lunch is either home made soup with a couple of ryvita, salad, omelette (I make frittata so he can take it to work and have it cold). I also make sugar free jelly with a few raspberries in for a sweet treat, or he has natural yogurt with a few berries.

Dinners: I have had to think a lot more about what to cook, especially on days I work, as you can't just bung a load of pasta on and do a quick sauce! I do stir fries, but with half the amount of noodles I used to do, but more veg, that seems to work. Also, cauliflower puree (with a bit of cheese added) is a great substitute for mashed potato. He can manage 3 small new potatoes without affecting his levels too much. It seems that any carbs don't have as much effect if they're combined with something fatty (not great when you're trying to lose weight I know!), so lasagne seems to be OK.

I know everyone is different, and it does seem a bit of trial and error, but I just wanted to say that you can eat pretty well without starving yourself. yes, he's given up crisps and chocolate bars, but there's plenty he can eat that he enjoys, and that's what you need to focus on! I'm going to experiment with a low car bakewell tart this afternoon, using sweetener in the frangipane and just a little filo pastry for the base, with mashed raspberries instead of the jam. I'll let you know how it works!

It is all so complicated it makes my head hurt!

I really should get myself checked out, as if I was also diabetic then it would be easier to forge ahead with a totally new eating regime.

sazpops Mon 04-Feb-13 10:41:37

exit - don't go wishing a lifelong condition on yourself just to push yourself into a new eating regime! I don't need to lose weight, but it hasn't been that hard to modify what we eat to something that's acceptable to both of us. If I want a 'treat' I just have it when DH isn't around - he always says 'Oh, eat what you like, it's not fair for you to do without' but I'd rather be supportive and eat my carbs on my days off (like the bit of toast I'm having with my coffee right now!). It really isn't complicated - the website has loads of advice and their forum is very useful too.

Gosh saz - I wasn't wishing it upon myself, I would be devastated - but I am overweight and I drink far too much white wine and I am early 50's so I am probably a prime candidate. I was tested a couple of years ago and was fine, but things can change.

DH is off to see the nurse on the 6th and I need to get him to read this thread. I suppose it is a choice between becoming insulin dependent or managing the condition through diet.

If it were me, I would be more motivated to do the latter but it would be an uphill struggle with DH.

sazpops Mon 04-Feb-13 11:05:46

exit - the thing is, if you both make these changes now, you might actually prevent yourself becoming diabetic, so it really is worth the effort. And if you do it together, will your DH be more willing to try to change his eating habits?

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 18:32:52

isithometime I'll have a look online tonight and order a monitor. I've had a look at the local chemists as I wanted a local stockist of the strips (and I was hoping that I could get one which would use the strips they prescribe, if they ever do), but all of the local chemists are pretty useless, so I'll just do it all on-line. Not one of the 4 local chemists had any ketosis pee sticks either.

I'm not sure what you mean by this

"...but heading off diabetes by diet and exercise, when metformin has been prescribed, really is an all or nothing situation. *If youre not ready to put everything into it then I dont think you will get the results you want and your body needs*"

It has actually really upset me, almost to the point of tears (the only thing stopping the tears actually is the fact that it should be 'words on a screen' and you are not here, so can't possibly know how much I am doing, so I really shouldn't take it so hard). It's the first time I've felt that way since I was diagnosed. I am doing everything I possibly can... where is it exactly that you think I'm failing?? sad

mirry2 Mon 04-Feb-13 18:55:21

OP you aren't failing. All GPs seem to prescribe metformin as soon as diabetes2 is diagnosed. I've heard that it's inevitable that patients will take it as the condition is progressive, however the longer you can put it off the better, imo, as eventually metformin will fail and then it's injections.
But you do need to get that monitor and be prepared to pay a fair bit for the test strips. Only then will you know if your efforts are paying off.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 18:57:37

Sazpops Hi again.

It's great to hear your DH's readings are going so well smile

Has he tried making his porridge with water (not milk)?

How are his readings with the burgen & soda breads?

I've had a few Rivita, but they are high in carbs, so I've tried to restrict them. Has he done readings after them?

I don't eat eggs which for me is unfortunate as they are very convenient when you lo carb!

I've bought a small pot of total today to try it for breakfast to see how long it keeps me satisfied. The avocado and small amount of cheese (25g) is good, but I need a few alternatives so I don't get fed up of it.

Dinner does definitely take more thinking about if you don't want to eat the same thing everynight (especially when you are vegetarian/no eggs).

I haven't had any pasta/noodles or anything like that - I've tried to cut out all processed carbs except for the odd Rivita and the two slices of 'bread replacement stuff' that I was having, but I cut that out today too.

I'm being uber strict because on top of wanting to control my blood sugar levels through diet, I also know that dropping some serious weight should help loads, so for now it's a hard hit from both POV. (But I'm pleased for your DH that just cutting down is enough to keep his levels good - and for the future me who can start to add the odd little thing back in when I've lost the weight and got control of my levels).

Are you putting anything other than cauli and a little cheese in your puree?

I've also cut out potatoes (but they're a hopeful future add-back as a treat, in small quantities).

Lasagna - good to know he can still enjoy that and a good one for eating out smile Have you tried the low carb one on the bootcamp recipe thread? It sounds lovely (I think it uses leeks instead of pasta).

That Bakewell sounds lovely smile

Please keep posting, it's really good to know the things you are trying and which are working for your DH. As you say, we are all different, but it's a good place to start - even if I keep lots of them tucked away in my mind for 'future add backs for treats!'.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 19:08:41

Exit - I totally understand how you feel. I knew for ages that I needed to sort my diet out (general health) but for many and varied reasons I just couldn't sort my shit out - sadly sad It appears that I have had diabetes for years - I hate that I could/have done so much damage to myself when I could have been managing the condition and reducing the chances of ending up on insulin a long time ago.

I hope you do get yourself tested - but if you don't, I hope you can get control of your diet/weight/general health. It's a struggle I know - but we can support each other (along with others on here!) smile

If I can't be an example - let me be a warning!

<Not sure who that was stolen from??>

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 19:18:56

Mirry - Thank you.

I have been looking to see how accurate/helpful another HbA1c test would be in a months (paid for myself). I know they are hard to get and not cheap, but if it was worth it I'd do it. I know it will only change the 'average' , but it was significant surely it would mean that diet/exercise/weightloss was starting to control it wouldn't it - whereas if it was the same it would indicate that I should start on the metformin?

The nurse seemed to think it was pointless - but not sure if that's true or just a cost saving comment?!

sazpops Mon 04-Feb-13 19:22:17

The bakewell tart worked! I discovered it was shortcrust pastry(ready rolled) in the freezer, not filo, so I used half a sheet and rolled it REALLY thin. I cut it into 6 pieces and I reckon there was 9gms of carb in each. DH had one and the rest are in the freezer (out of harm's way!). As he's now gone out to play 2hours of badminton I think this is fine.

The cauli puree is just cauli and cheese - the cheese helps 'stick' it together, I think it would be quite watery without. You need to cook it until it's quite soft or it won't puree properly (as I found to my cost the first time!).

2 slices of Burgen or soda bread and cheese have given DH readings of anywhere between 6.5 and 8, 2 hours afterwards. 2 ryvita seem to give similar readings, as long as he has some protein with them.

Porridge is just a no-no unfortunately, even though oats are low GI I think it's the fact that it's just carbs and nothing to help 'soak them up' if you see what I mean.

another good tip for a sauce you'd normally have with pasta - shred carrots into ribbons using a speed peeler and cook them for a minute or so, and put your sauce onto a bed of these.

I'll post any other tips as I remember them (or discover them) but do bear in mind that your body might react entirely differently to DH's. It might give you some starting points though.

mirry2 Mon 04-Feb-13 19:52:28

OP there's no need for a private HbA1c test. Get a monitor and some test strips instead. Most monitors come with some free test strips. Start testing straight away and see whether your bg levels comes down over a month.

tazzle22 Mon 04-Feb-13 20:39:49

have just read the whole thread with interest as although not diagnosed (waiting for HbA1c results) I am either just over or just under the diagnosis level for T2 and am definatley at least glucose intolerant.

I bought a meter a few months ago after my brother was diagnosed T2 and caon honestly ay it has been the best thing I have ever done. There is T1, T2 and gestational diabetes in my family so I always knew there was a risk of it .... but kinda "put it off" doing something.

I wondered if my GP would brush it off that my numbers were only just over at times (11.8) but frequently over 8 ...(I had charted all I had eaten and the numbers for two months) but he was brill !!!

as he said, its a continnum.... just because an hour can make a difference between a point over or an point under and a diagnosis it means that lots people are not diagnosed as IGT ( Impaired glucose tolerant) and actually have already damaged thier body systems by time of diagnosis.. spiking in 7's and 8's can be enough to do some damage. He thinks it great I am being proactive.

Re meters and strips ....... very expensive to buy them at the chemist ..... I get mine on ebay at less then half the price !!!!

I eat to what my meter tells me is happening sith BG and am still learning .......... like how much having a virus shoots BG up......... 11.3 on 1/2 slice bread yesterday shock

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 22:15:05

Sazpops - that sounds great. I think I need me a wife grin

Mirry - the thing with testing like that though is that it doesn't give you the same average that the HbA1c does because it's only a reading at x time not a reading of 24/7/12 - so surely you aren't getting such an accurate reflection? Just a 'at this point in time'...?

Tazzle - Let us know when you get the results (fingers crossed it's a no!) although hopefully it can be diet controlled if you are on the line or just over it anyway? It's good that your Dr thinks it's good that you are being pro-active - my diabetes nurse seems to think anything you do yourself (other than not eat pies & cake) is OTT and Should Be Left To The Professionals and Medication hmm <sigh> Which meter do you have and what do you think of it? Where do you get your strips from? How much are they? (LOL did you realise there'd be an interrogation??

isithometime Tue 05-Feb-13 08:59:11

ahhh op I am sorry thanks, I have people in my family who read the books, buy a monitor and dont use it, make dietary plans and dont follow them closely, buy an exercise machine but dont use it, and you can imagine the outcome, their sugars go up instead of down.

Your sugar levels mean you really can crack it with diet and exercise but you DO need a monitor ASAP and it is a tough road, a total lifestyle change - your diet will have to be turned on its head, not substituting crackers for sandwiches, but something a bit more hardcore and bootcampy for a few months - you need a lot of aerobic exercise too to give yourself the very very best chance of booting the diabetes out.

Scientific studies last year or the year before showed that people with pre diabetes who lost a lot of body fat (= lo carb to cut body fat and not muscle mass) quickly become totally non diabetic - and that can be you.


isithometime Tue 05-Feb-13 09:00:43

I just looked on ebay, the strips are genuine long shelf life sealed units at about half the shop price, maybe £15-£20 for 50 and delivered to your door

mirry2 Tue 05-Feb-13 09:59:59

The HbA1c test is done every three months. What it doesn't tell you is whether you have great swings of blood sugar depending on time of day, food eaten or exercise taken. for example because I test regularly I know what my BG level is, more or less, when I get up, before and 2 hours after a meal and when I go to bed. If my BG level starts to rise I take action straightaway, by upping my exercise or checking my diet. It means really getting to know your body and what foods affect it. I know that toast and marmalade in the morning will send up my BG level so I avoid it except maybe as a holiday treat.

I know that at some point my BGlevels will start creeping up and then I'll have to bite the bullet and start taking metformin once my BG levels regularly go beyond the NICE guidelines. If you don't want to take medication and you manage to keep the BG below the NICE guidelines you have to be very firm with the doctors.

I haven't found that my diabetes impinges much on my life. I have had it for at least 6 years I think with no symptoms. I was only diagnosed when I was having investigations for another health problem. Nobody knows I have it, apart from my Dh, because I don't want people judging me or my eating habits and there's so much negative press about it.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 10:05:30

isithometime - thanks.

On what basis are you saying that my levels can be cracked with diet & exercise (ie - what qualifications/experience do you have to back that up?). Do you have a link to any of those studies?

I am not your family. I still don't think you are listening to me.

My lifestyle has changed overnight (well, it's gone back to the way it was before other things in my life went so drastically wrong). I have cut out pretty much all sugar (including fruit until I get this sorted). I know there is still some 'sugar' in my food as I am still having milk etc, I have cut out all 'crap', I have drastically cut down on processed carbs (in the fortnight I have had a few Ryvita (maybe 6), and most of the mornings I have had 2 slices of a wheat free, organic, rye 'thing' that very very loosely resembles bread, toasted with avocado, pepper and 25g of cheese - I have also cut that out now. Where you get the idea I'm just faffing about swapping one processed carb for another I don't know.

I have re-started walking every day. Only half an hour to 45 mins (2-3 miles) at the moment as I still don't feel too good.

What part of that is not 'bootcampy' - other than not wanting to join BIWI's bootcamp and only eating veggies from the 'allowed' list and still drinking milk. I think I'm actually following more of the bootcamp rules than most of the bootcampers are grin but I'm respecting BIWI's wishes that if you are doing her bootcamp that you follow her rules and right now, I'm not - so I'll lurk. I also think it's possible I'm in ketosis and I was trying to get some sticks to see, but for me (right now) it's not the be-all and end-all answer... (I'm quite well aware it may become so!).

I am 100% sure you are trying to help smile so thank you thanks but could you please read what I'm writing and if you still don't think I'm doing enough or doing it right, be more specific instead of generalising about things that shouldn't be done (especially when I'm not doing them). I'm completely open to suggestions and constructive criticism smile Thanks!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 10:30:19

Mirry - Thank you for posting (again). Which monitor do you have and would you recommend it? There are so many! I'm going to get the fast clix lancet that was recommended earlier if that makes any difference?

What do you usually eat? I've got to the point where I've taken everything 'out' of my diet, but I need to start adding a few things back in as I can't live with this (vegetarian <no eggs>, no processed carbs, cut right back on cheese. No potatoes, beans, lentils, oats, grains, rice, pasta). I'm pretty much doing low carb and low fat (other than the avocado). I'm a bit concerned about too much fat if I'm not in ketosis.

Breakfast and eating out are the hardest things. I'm meeting a friend for lunch to day - just a 'cafe' not a 'restaurant' <neither of us can afford a restaurant around here at the moment for a casual lunch> and I can't think of a single thing I can have - I think I'll baby cuddle and coffee while she eats lunch, which is 'ok' but other than saying 'I'm low carbing' I don't know what to say to my friends and family at the moment about what I'm not eating and I'm not doing well in saying what I can eat because I can't think of much! I met another friend in Costa yesterday, there was nothing I could have - which was fine with me, but obviously she was a bit hmm at why I wouldn't have a panini etc. I told her I was low-carbing but she kept offering me a little of hers (crisps, panini, cake) and I hated making her feel guilty for eating a fairly normal lunch when I just had a coffee. <Sigh>

If you don't want to take medication and you manage to keep the BG below the NICE guidelines you have to be very firm with the doctors I have 3 months and another HbA1c before I have to deal with that again! smile

I haven't found that my diabetes impinges much on my life... Nobody knows I have it, apart from my Dh, because I don't want people judging me or my eating habits and there's so much negative press about it Exactly. How have you coped with that when eating out/eating at friends?

sazpops Tue 05-Feb-13 11:05:34

myhead it sounds as though you're making yourself miserable, trying to cut out everything. You still need food to give yourself energy to do that walking and just to enjoy life! I think you should introduce beans and lentils back into your diet - yes they have some carbs, but they also have protein. From stuff I've looked at on the internet, they are the diabetics friend! We eat a lot of them and haven't found they affect DH's levels adversly.

I think you are right not to follow anyone else's 'rules' about what you should and shouldn't eat, I would really get yourself a monitor and see exactly how different things affect you, otherwise you're working in the dark really. Anway, well done on the changes you've made, but please don't make yourself miserable! Maybe next time you meet a friend for lunch try to go somewhere you can have a vegetable soup or salad.

Re: which monitor, we are in Ireland, so DH was given one from the docs as he had a load a rep had given him. The lancets and strips are free here as diabetics are given an exemption card. I think it's called a Freestyle something or other!

sazpops Tue 05-Feb-13 11:08:35

Sorry myhead, just realised I said you shouldn't follow anyone else's rules, then said you 'should' reintroduce beans and lentils! shock

Just a suggestion!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 11:52:47

Sazpops Thank you for being so sweet smile but I'm not actually miserable. I'm happy (for now!) because the scales are going down every day and that's keeping me 'on top' and 'in line' grin It's more of an 'OK, that's fine at home, but I need to make provision for when I'm out & it's fine for now, but I need to look at what is 'ok' to add back in'.

The beans and lentils have been excluded more for 'weight loss' than blood sugar, although others have said they have affected their bs levels as well. I do enjoy a coupld of tablespoons of lentils/beans in a sauce (hot) over grated cabbage/carrot/other veg (cold)

I tried to find somewhere that would do salad/soup but there's really no where near here that offers those options that isn't more expensive and due to the timings for her baby class and nursery pickup etc we don't have long enough to go anywhere else. There's a new place opening soon, so I'm hopeful it will be better! smile

Sorry myhead, just realised I said you shouldn't follow anyone else's rules, then said you 'should' reintroduce beans and lentils gringrin I know what you mean though.

sazpops Tue 05-Feb-13 13:02:45

Yes, it's difficult balancing the weight loss with the BS levels. DH is eating quite a lot of cheese and nuts because they're satisfying and don't affect his levels, but are of course fattening! His weight is going down steadily though, he's lost exactly a stone in the 10 weeks since diagnosis, so he's happy with that. He'd like to lose another stone, which would take him well into the 'normal' weight for his height.

Eating out is a problem isn't it? We were away for a few days on business a couple of weeks ago and it was almost impossible to low carb. Hope you had a nice time with your friend anyway!

MyHead So what are you eating? I know I am being horribly nosey but just interested. I was veggie for years but then crumbled and started on fish and free range chicken and stopped there.

I was going to go to the Diabetic nurse with DH tomorrow but I have had a bad fall and seem to have whiplash and a sore head confused. Comfort food needed unfortunately.

I am hoping to low carb during Lent to give myself a kick up my ample backside.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 16:22:51

Sazpops - Your DH is doing really well, both with his levels and his weight smile Unfortunately I have much more than 1 stone (or even his original two) to get me into the 'normal/healthy' weight range for my height :/

Yes, I had a nice time with my friend. Her baby is only a few months old and I haven't seen her in a couple of weeks so needed to catch up on cuddles!!

Low carb, low fat & vegetarian is a little bit of a mission smile I've been including avocado & a bit of cheese, so not totally 'low fat' but not the 'high fat' that usually accompanies a low carb diet.

We ended up with a bit more free time than we'd thought, so we went to the local chef & brewer and had soup. It was a country vegetable soup and I checked it was vegetarian and without potato - which it was, but it wasn't what I was expecting when it arrived. It was thicker than I'd hoped for, lots of carrot and I think some barley maybe? It was 'ok' and although it was probably highish in carbs - it wasn't simple carbs or high fat or whatever else bad it could have been - I'll live. I was really good and didn't even have a nibble on the lovely bread that came with it.

I haven't even had a latte today, so the carbs I normally have in the milk can be traded for some of the carbs in the soup smile

Low carbing as a meat eater is definitely much easier... but nothing will induce me to eat meat.

If you're not sick of cauliflower, you can grate it, steam it, and use it instead of rice. Don't let it get too mushy. With a good strong curry sauce on top, you can't really tell!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 16:43:34

Exit - what happened?? How on earth did you do so much damage falling? I hope you are feeling better soon!

Ask away smile I really don't mind. What am I eating...

Breakfast: Avocado and cheese on this stuff that's sold with the bread, but really isn't grin It's organic and wheatfree, falls apart when you so much as look at it, but toasts nicely to make a thin crunchy base. However, although it's wheatfree, it's still high in carbs so I've knocked that on the head for now and will have just the avocado and cheese (25g) and see how that goes (if it keeps me feeling satisified, if not I'll either add the 'bread' back in or find something else). It also depends on how it does when I get the monitor and then I can see if it shoots my bg levels up or not.

This morning I had half a tub (100g) of the small 'Total Yogurt' (the 100 full fat one recommended on BIWI's Bootcamp) as I had it a bit late and didn't want to have too much/too many carbs/too much fat/too many calories before eating lunch out so I could be a bit more flexible. It was OK. Edible but not nice enough you want to keep eating it (probably really nice with some berries of banana), so perfect really, but I need to check it out on the bootcamp thread as it seems quite high in carbs to me. (3.9 per 100g I think).

Lunch & dinner: I've mostly been having finely chopped purple cabbage, grated carrot & bits of whatever else there is (mushrooms, cherry tomatoes, cucumber etc) with a spoon or two of egg free mayonaise (Granovita) and either a little bit avocado, cheddar, brie, cold veggie sausage or a spoonful of a hot topping such as chillie beans, chillie lentils etc (except I have stopped having them as well the past few days).

Last night I made Thai Green Curry using the cheats packets - the packet is 4.9g of carbs and I've got half left tonight. I put in cauli, brocolli, mushrooms, red pepper, asparagus, courgette and a shed load of spinach. I did miss the rice with it though, so I think I might try the cauliflower rice recipe IF I can do it without a food processor.

I need to get a monitor and try to work out what's OK for my BGL and what isn't, then work out what's OK for me to eat and still lose weight and what isn't. This level of cutting out/back is OK as a short term measure but isn't sustainable (for me) long term. I definitely feel less 'satisfied' and more hungry since I've cut most of the fat and beans/lentils out.

Do you think you can rally around enough to go with DH tomorrow? I think it would be good for both of you if you can.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 16:46:14

Hello Bertha - were you reading my mind as I wrote my post smile ? Can you steam it in the microwave or do you need a steamer?

BIWI Tue 05-Feb-13 17:24:20

I believe you can make cauli rice by using a simple box grater, MyHead, although I've never tried it myself!

Also - just to say - if you are doing low carb, you can do high fat. Fat doesn't make you fat. It will, though, stop you feeling hungry.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 19:09:12

BIWI - I'm just a bit concerned that if I'm not low carbing low enough that I'm not in ketosis that the fat wont get 'used' and will just get stored instead. I thought that was the whole point of being in ketosis? (which I'm sure I wouldn't be).

tazzle22 Tue 05-Feb-13 19:34:01

well you certainly seem determined ex ostrich wink

I have an accucheck aviva and I can get the strips ofr as little as £10 per pack 50 on ebay..... but there are cheaper strips I found after I bought the meter... as low as a fiver for 50.

I much prefer monitoring this way as it lets me know what is going to work at getting BG numbers down rather than wait for the three ( if you are lucky) monthly HbA1c... snd that only tells you generally what an average is for that period, not waht shoots each [ersons BG up.

Some pople for example can tolerate bread.. I can for example tolerate 1 slice in the morning with an egg ( or cheese).... its an ordinary wholemeal granary or seeded bread so "off the shelf". I cannot have two though not even if the total carbs are below say 40g in a main meal.
I cannot tolerate even a little bit of white bread ( I luuuuurve french bread).

Re crackers ... some people can have them.. I do . I have them with cheese for lunch. However soup is generally a no no unless home made and I can enure no thickener etc in it.

Cereals I can have a little of ... but only stuff like shredded wheat type ones and only once a week.... trying to find other things I like as I dont like greek yoghurt that lots people have reccomended.

I loved jacket potatoes but cannot tolerate any more than 100g which is tiny really so I just dont have it ... once a week maybe will have baby pots.

Had curry with cauli rice tonight..... just grated the cauli with box grater and roasted it. Normally BG would be fine with it but tonight thanks to virus I have BG is now 8.7 blush

I have lost 19lbs since starting this three months ago so not bad wink... cant say I am never hungry or never yearn for my "comfort food" .. but the though of the potential damage to my eyes in particular is high motivation indeed !!! ( I already have another eye condition so need to preserve the sight I have !!!)

A**a sells meters if you are near one and most chemists... though prob dearer there...... however if you are diagnosed diabetic you can get one free... just google and there are loads but just check out the cost of strips before you get one.

Some gps will resist to the hilt prescribing strips but it can depend on how much you demontrate that this will definately change your habits ( and knowledge)..... so many people dont take their advice on baoird they kinda get used to people conrinuing in old habits and are not willing to throw more money at someone that will not benefit.... I can kinda understand that point of view as I know some diabetics who DO have thier heads in the sand and carry on eating horrid diets ( not even sticking to the nhs guidelines) then getting shocked when diagnosed with the complications... its kinda too late then sad

best of luck ....... no not luck cos its not that ... luck can be what you make of it. Luck only in that you get the support you need to manage the condition !!

tazzle22 Tue 05-Feb-13 19:43:47

I have not tested myself but dont think I am in ketosis.. I think one has to be below 20 -30 G a day for that ...... and I have still lost weight ( see above)

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 21:28:34

Hi Tazzle smile I am a determined ostrich. I think it's 'easy' at the moment as I'm focusing on the diet and weight loss - trying not to think about the life long restrictions, monitoring, medication etc and horrible possible consequences, especially as it appears I've been an undiagnosed diabetic for quite a few years. I got the letter through for the eye test, so I need to phone and book that asap.

When do you expect to get your results?

Thanks for the info on which monitor you have. It's a bit confusing with the stuff I don't (yet) understand - things like 'no coding' 'no calibration' etc and how long do lancets last? Do you have a new 'needle' each time or do you keep using the same one as it's for you - some appeared to be a 4 uses then it's thrown away... I don't know what things to look for (ie how they record your various tests) and what it's possible to do with them... I've seen one cute little one but I've no idea if it will do the job or not? and the strips seem more expensive. There seems to be several type of accucheck strips??

It's interesting to read what you can and can't tolerate.

It hit me again when you said 'I luuuuuuurve french bread' - I hadn't even thought about the loss of that in my life. I think I'm trying not to look too far ahead <still ostriching>, focusing on the 'here & now' and what I can do to reduce my levels with diet, exercise and weight loss. I think the impact of diabetes being For Life will hit me later once I've lost some weight and my levels are better (whether that's through diet & exercise or medication) and yet I still can't have a lot of things sad

Can you tell me exactly which breads you fnd you can tolerate a little of and I'll file it away for 'to test later on'. I looked the other day, but they all seem to be really high in carbs with not much variation from white bread or crumpets. The 'not bread bread' I was buying is higher in carbs than crumpets!!

Crackers with cheese for lunch... something to hold out hope for still being able to have occasionally smile

Soup - I'm sure the one I had today wasn't great. I felt really really sleepy afterwards. I was hoping soup would be one of those fairly OK fall backs, but probably not.

Cereal, jackets pots etc, in time when I've lost some weight they'll all be things to 'try'.

Had curry with cauli rice tonight..... just grated the cauli with box grater and roasted it sounds lovely!! I had the second portion of the Thai Curry, but by the time my friend got off the phone I couldn't be bothered to faff with the cauli rice (and it had a lot of cauli in it anyway). What do you do with it when you roast it? <spray it with oil/season it>

Is your virus clearing up?... hope you are feeling better soon.

What is your usual BG reading?

I have lost 19lbs since starting this three months ago so not bad That's really good! Do you have much left to lose?

cant say I am never hungry or never yearn for my "comfort food" .. but the though of the potential damage to my eyes in particular is high motivation indeed !!! I could have written that, it'a a huge motivation isn't it!

I googled the free meters the other night and ended up in a draw for one, but I don't think they're doing it for ages. I couldn't find one I could just 'request'. Should have another look.

My Diabetes Nurse will not prescribe for T2 D's. She thinks diet plays basically no part in your BGL's and it's pointless testing hmm and that I should 'make the most of not having to test' <because I'm such a Fat Arse I will end up on insulin injections being the subtext> There's no shifting that boat. However, my Dr might as she was really nice and very keen to help me in anyway she could. I think I'd rather wait to ask though, prove I'm using them wisely and I am controlling it through diet/exercise etc (to whatever level I can).

Thanks for the 'good wishes' I'm getting most of my support from here - can you tell grin

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 21:30:55

Oh I know you don't have to be in ketosis to lose weight. I just meant I don't want to up my fat too much the way you generally can with low carbing because I don't think my carbs are low enough to put me in ketosis so my body wont burn the fat and I'll end up either putting on weight or standing still.

Twas a strange accident involving a haynet, tension, broken string and a stable wall......

Most All my injuries are horse/dog related.

This all still makes my head explode to be honest. To my mind MyHead you are eating barely enough to keep a flea alive. I am not sure I could manage avocado and cheese for breakfast, but I do like a veggie sausage.

It is also odd that the medical profession is so far behind the conceived wisdom on here that diet can reverse diabetes. Although I was with a friend yesterday who is a nurse and who wholeheartedly agreed with the concept. I wonder why they are so averse to dietary changes?

BIWI Wed 06-Feb-13 08:34:13

MyHead - as you know, I'm a low carber primarily for weight loss (although I'm also now a confirmed low carber on the basis of heath grounds). I've never had to do it to deal with diabetes.

Having been following it as a WOE for over a year now (with a few lapses here and there grin), I can reassure you that you do get used to a diet without things like bread, rice and pasta - and it becomes easy. In many ways, it's like changing any kind of behaviour - it just takes time to break a habit/develop a new one.

You are in a phase of transition at the moment, so it's inevitable that you are going to find it difficult. You're also learning about a whole new way to eat, which isn't easy! My best advice to you is to not try to find substitutes for the high carb things you're eating now. IME, the substitutes are rarely the same, and it's very easy to start looking resentfully at the substitute foods and longingly at the original ones - and thus you become tempted to cheat.

This is one of the reasons I've never had cauliflower rice. So if I cook a meal for the family that is a conventional rice dish, e.g. curry or chilli, I just don't have any rice. If I make a curry, I have the curry and a vegetable dish to go with it. If I have chilli (obviously also minus the kidney beans!), then I have it in a bowl with cheese and sour cream/yoghurt on the top.

I thought I would never be able to go without pasta, because I love it so much - and on the odd lapse when I have had it, I have enjoyed it. But I don't crave it, nor do I feel resentful that I can't have it. I just see it for what it is - a bowl full of sugar.

Anyway, this is a long ramble to say 'stick with it' and it will soon become second nature to you. Made a lot easier when you see your weight drop and your blood readings stabilising, hopefully!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 09:49:35

Exit - you do realise that provokes more questions than it answers?? grin

How are you feeling today? Are you going with DH?

I'm eating plenty, honest. I also need to have another read through the bootcamp recipe thread and pinch all of the veggie recipe ideas that aren't too high in fat.

I'm only eating 'full fat' stuff, not 'low fat' stuff when I am eating 'fat'. (I don't like the stuff they put in to make low fat stuff taste acceptable.)

Drug companies fund research - they aren't exactly going to be shouting it from the rooftops when a dietary change is effective for treating/controlling something.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 10:40:45

BIWI A few years ago I did McDougal for 2 years (basically natural food, no processed stuff and quite low carb), but this is different - with the diagnosis of diabetes - (for me anyway) it's knowing I can't have it/do it, not that I'm choosing not to do it (for weight loss or general belief of it being healthier). For example - I can no longer go to the beach and get some hot chips or when in France just pick up a cheese baguette, or be completely relaxed about going to a friends house for dinner, or have a 'big night out' not caring about the carbs/calories in alcohol - you can, it will just slow down your weight loss/put you out of ketosis for a day or two. It's that mental adjustment that's hard. Does that make sense?

As I said, I did McDougal for two years - it was OK and I couldn't understand why everyone didn't eat that way, I couldn't understand how people couldn't see it was The Answer... I was a convert to that WOE, as you are to Lo-Carbing WOE and many others are, it will be interesting to see how many are doing it in 5/10/15 years time. I'm not criticising how you are feeling, what you are doing or how it's working for you - I'm just saying that although you think it's been easy to change your WOE and that this is The Answer, you might not feel in time that it is as I didn't with McDougal.

The other (I feel significant) thing is that I'm a no egg eating vegetarian. It's not so easy to be low carb - especially when out.

BIWI - I'm really not trying to find substitutes - I'm just looking for FOOD I can eat grin Low carb, no egg, vegetarian breakfasts for example. I don't want left over Thai and I don't want more of the mixed coleslaw type dish. Any suggestions? (other than my current avocado and cheese)

Cauliflower rice is just cauli cooked in a different way though, so no different to a vegetable side dish... you are having a meat curry, with a vegetable side dish - I'm having a vegetable curry, with a vegetable side dish...?!

I had the Thai curry the first night and it wasn't 'enough' (either in variety or texture or quantity) and I wanted something else with it last night. What would you have had? (Vegetarian).

If I have chillie, minus the beans, I'm having chillie veg, there isn't that 'base' of meat - it's just not satisfying. There's not a lot of protein/substance and I can't keep adding cheese to everything.

I thought I would never be able to go without pasta, because I love it so much - and on the odd lapse when I have had it, I have enjoyed it That's the thing that's hard to come to terms with though really, the fact that you (non diabetics) can choose to have it, you can have a 'lapse' and it really doesn't make any difference to your life - but it will to mine.

But I don't crave it, nor do I feel resentful that I can't have it. I just see it for what it is - a bowl full of sugar grin Yes, a bowl full of sugar will help to stay away from stuff like that.

Being a vegetarian (no eggs) when eating out is difficult enough at times - now it's getting bloody impossible sad and certainly not enjoyable.

Travelling as a vegetarian (no eggs) is incredibly difficult at times (not eating is an option I've often had to take, which now isn't too smart either) - having had a whole bunch of 'safe' foods completely whipped away from under me is HARD. I can't fall back on bread, pasta, rice.

Anyway, this is a long ramble to say 'stick with it' and it will soon become second nature to you. Made a lot easier when you see your weight drop and your blood readings stabilising, hopefully!

But at the moment that's not my focus or I'd be going completely up the wall!!

Right now I need to work out what I can add back into my diet and keep the weight loss going and the bs/bgl low. Beans? Lentils? Cheese? or something entirely different??

BIWI - Thank you smile When you have time, please keep replying - I need people to hash it out with!! The fact the scales are changing daily is certainly helping grin

BIWI Wed 06-Feb-13 10:58:04

Ah, you misunderstand me, though, MyHead.

I'm not trying to say what I do is what you should do - obviously it's not, hence my initial sentence/caveat as you know, I'm a low carber primarily for weight loss (although I'm also now a confirmed low carber on the basis of heath grounds). I've never had to do it to deal with diabetes.

The examples I gave - e.g. the cauliflower rice - are about me - not you. You are in a period of transition, which is why it's hard for you.

What I was trying to say - evidently not well enough! - was that it will become easier for you and it will become second nature, especially once you have established that it works for you.

Obviously things are different for me, not being diabetic.

I get that it's difficult for you being a vegetarian (no eggs) grin

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 11:30:09

BIWI - please don't run away!!

It just feels so bloody unfair sad

... and sodding difficult as a vegetarian

... (no eggs) grin

I want to cry, in fact, I think I'm leaking a bit...

mirry2 Wed 06-Feb-13 11:30:27

Hi Op I haven't had time to respond properly to your posts but don't be too downhearted about your diet. Once you've worked out what works for you it becomes much easier. I mostly eat what I've always eaten but in moderation except for bread, which i find sends my BG shooting up - but even then I don't totally deprive myself - if I go out for a meal I may well have a piece of baguette.
I rarely snack between meals and I never have eaten 'nibble' before a meal in someone elses house eg nuts and crisps.

My typical diet is:
Breakfast: porridge cooked with water and sprinkled with enough articfical sugar to give it a slight sweet taste plus 2 cups of coffee with skimmed milk
Lunch: half a carton of soup (any variety I like) plus a roll and soya spread (or sometimes 2 oat cakes with soya, which are are better for my BG levels)

Evening: usually 2 or 3 small boiled potatoes, loads of veg and a fishcake or a meat chop or chicken breast.
If I feel hungry before bed I'll have another oatcake or three.

None of the above is rigid - for example yesterday i went out for a birthday meal and had posh beefburger and chips, glass of champagne and 2 pieces of birthday cake.

I think that once you understand what affects your bg levels you can make some informed choices about your diet and what risks you're prepared to take in eating so called forbidden food.

Going out to coffee shops can be very difficult as they tend to sell muffins and prepacked sandwiches stuffed with ingredients. I try to avoid them.

I think you can avoid telling your friends you have diabetes2 though-just tell them you're on a health kick and decided to cut out all the food you think is bad for you. You can still eat out at their house or in restaurants - but don't snack, and have smaller portions. And don't draw attention to your diet.

It didn't go well with the nurse I am afraid. DH really thought it would answer all his questions, but when he went in she asked him why he was there confused Maybe we expect too much from the medical profession, but he had been told last week that he had a life changing condition and the appointment with the Diabetes Nurse was made for him, but she had not bothered to check her appointments for the day (he was first in) or to look at his medical history. She also said that as it was his first appt it should have been for made for an hour - so she did not have time to do any blood tests etc. He asked about a machine (prompted by this thread) and she said he could not have one at this stage. She gave him two thin leaflets (British Heart Foundation) and wrote some figures on the back for what levels he should look out for, but as he does not have a machine he will not know what level he is confused confused. She told him to eat lots of bread and rice and pasta, and gave him a card to give to me so that I will know what to look out for when shopping (again British Heart Foundation traffice light system) and said he should be taking 30 minuts exercise per day. At the beginning of the appointment she could tell that DH was not very happy and told him that he was unsettling her and causing her to shake. She then gave him a form to fill in if he wanted to complain about her.

He was warned that his tablets might have side effects, such as diarrohea, but it is having the opposite effect on him. He told the nurse who said he should increase his tablets to two a day. He is only on one a day. His levels had come down to 15 today which is in the right direction. She also told him he could go blind and he should go and see an eye specialist, but that the wait would be 8 weeks. He is now not sure if she is making the appointment or not.

DH has now made an appointment to go and talk to one of the doctors but as the doctor he saw originally failed to spot that the sores on the bottom of his legs plus his weight and his age could be diabetes, and gave him some cream for ringworm (and blaming the dog) he does not have much confidence there now.

Ho hum

MOSagain Wed 06-Feb-13 12:18:18

I posted on this thread early on and have just had a quick skim to try to catch up. Not read all of it but a bit shock that OP considering NOT taking metformin. They are prescribed for a reason and I do hope you are taking them. You don't always get awful side effects but if you do, sometimes its just a case of weighing up the pros and cons like with all medication. Starting on 2 a day is sensible and then building up. I was started on 1 a day for first week then 2 a day and am now on 4 a day (2 morning 2 evening) and no side effects at all. They are prescribed for a reason so please don't just decide not to.

I saw that you were unsure about statins as was I. I dr (who I'd never seen before) wanted to put me on them after my first set of bloods after diagnosis as cholestral was up but apparently this is very common within a few months of diagnosis and many try to sort this out themselves with a careful diet.

Hope all is going well now

sazpops Wed 06-Feb-13 12:30:33

exit, what a pain! It does seem completely pot luck what advice or help you get from doctors/nurses.

When my DH was diagnosed he wasn't really given any advice other than to start testing and see what foods affected him - he got a bit panicky about the whole thing so I have made it my 'project' and researched all I can to try to help him control it. Luckily his was picked up on a routine blood test and his levels weren't sky high, so he probably hasn't been diabetic for long, which is why he's managing to control it with diet and exercise.

If you haven't already been on the website I would recommend it. The contributors to the forum there have stacks of experience and I've picked up lots of useful hints and food tips from there.

myhead , have you got a meter yet? Honestly, until you are testing you are floundering in the dark; you might be cutting out loads of stuff that you could actually eat! Today I am trying a rather bizarre sounding recipe which I shall report back on tomorrow! It's for a pizza, where the base is made from our old friend cauliflower, mixed with soft goats cheese and egg (I expect you could leave out the egg!). If it works, I'll post a link. By the way (sorry to be nosy, don't answer if you don't want to), is it that you can't eat eggs, or just don't like them? It's such a shame as they are so useful in this situation. Have a good day.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 13:14:01

Mirry - thanks again smile It sounds like you have quite a lot of carbs but are still able to maintain good bg levels - in the long term that's very encouraging. What is your reading normally after porridge?

I've just been looking at meters/strips/lancets again and will order one this afternoon.

I am hating keeping it from my friends, I'm lying to them and I don't like it - it doesn't sit right with me... but I just don't want it to be an issue all the time. It's already having an impact though as I've been invited to a friends to have dinner with them next week (the friend I had lunch with yesterday). She already has a weaning baby, semi fussy toddler and very fussy DH and my 'vegetarianism' to cope with, throwing the low-carb in there too was just an 'omg what are we going to have' moment and I don't want to stress my friends out... I've always been so easy going - as long as it's vegetarian (no eggs) I'll eat it and if that's beans on toast or a cheese sandwich that's fine - I'm the 'easy' one, even though I'm veg... until now, when I'm probably going to be the bloody awkward one sad

Once again, the 'vegetarian' bit is making it very hard - but I can't/wont change that. I just couldn't.

Though, as you say, I will just have to see what my bgl's are like - I might be able to cope with some things when eating out/at friends.

Thanks again for posting.

MOSagain Wed 06-Feb-13 13:24:36

Why on earth can you not tell your friends? You have diabetes, not leprosy! At least if you tell them, they can support you.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 13:24:51

Exit - that's terrible, but unsurprising sadly sad I just don't know what we need to do to improve medical care in this country - it's dreadful. Can you press DH into reading this thread perhaphs? At least he will see that high carbs is not necessarily the answer and more importantly he isn't alone in struggling with this and the lack of help from the diabetes nurse.

I have spent days googling, following links, trying to get to grips with the science and the reasons we all react differently. What I am 100% convinced about is that high processed starchy carbs are NOT the answer, even though that would be easy/convenient/lovely.

Is your DH going to buy a monitor and testing strips?

How are you feeling today?

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 13:28:17

MOS I have explained in full why I'm not sure about taking Metformin (and no, I'm not taking them at the moment - it has very, very little to do with the side effects) - could you skim through my posts to see why? I have also explained (a couple of times) why I'm not telling my friends/family.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 13:36:30

Sazpops you really are a lovely wife smile That pizza sounds interesting! There's also one on the Bootcamp low-carb recipe thread which sounded interesting. I haven't got my meter yet, but I will order one this afternoon which should arrive in a couple of days. I'm cutting things out for my levels and to lose weight - so I'm cutting out a lot more than I would if I just wanted to maintain my levels and weight - but I need to lose the weight to control the levels and hopefully make the amount of insulin I produce enough for my body. I'm carrying far far far too much weight.

Eggs - the thought makes me feel ill. I was vegan for a few years which was fine at home but became very difficult when eating out (mainstream) and travelling - so I regretfully started eating some dairy, which I was actually considering cutting out again just before this dx. But eggs, I just can't face them, to me they are unborn chicks (yes, I know they aren't all fertilised etc).

mirry2 Wed 06-Feb-13 13:41:55

op - 2 hours after porridge it usually goes back to under 8. I don't measure immediately after as everyone's bg levels go up after food but should return to normal within 2 hours.

Exercise always makes a difference to me so if it measure over 8.5 I go for a brisk 20 minute walk and it brings it down to about 7 or under.

I think everyone is different though.

As far as telling your friends - maybe you should and as Mosgain said, they would support you.
I've just never told mine because lots of them are medics and I really don't want them censoring what I eat. They are so disapproving of patients not following medical advice and some are really judgemental in private about other people's lifestyles and the drain on the NHS. You would be amazed.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 14:04:38

Mirry that's interesting. Does it matter what it goes up to after food if it comes down under 8 after 2 hours? Or is there still a level it shouldn't go up to?

I have no doubt my friends would be supportive - but it's the constant 'should you be having that with your diabetes', 'my friend said she eats lots of starchy carbs and that's what diabetics should do' - and when eating out 'Oh there's nothing here for a vegetarian diabetic is there - you should ask for x, do y, think about not being veg'... etc etc etc I've been vegetarian for 20 odd years and I can read a menu, yet they all still seem to need to scan the menu and tell me what I can have It Drives Me Nuts - I can't take it on yet another level, I just can't. Also, my friends and family all know each other & I don't want my Mum worrying. She can't do anything to help and would seriously just worry herself silly (and not stop going on and on and on about it).

I don't think I would be amazed tbh.

MOSagain Wed 06-Feb-13 14:07:30

OP sorry but I think you are acting irresponsibly. You are wasting the drs and nurses time if you ignore medical advice. I can't be arsed to waste any more time on you and your thread. I've known people die as a result of diabetes, my mother one of them. To ignore medical advice is just stupid. I do hope you sort yourself out and control your condition but feel you are not helping yourself.

mirry2 Wed 06-Feb-13 15:04:30

MOS I don't think the op is ignoring medicl advice - she had only just been diagnosed and is trying to undertand it all and find the best way to manage her diabetes FOR HER.

Latest NICE medical advice is (although they seem to move the goal posts from time to time) is to keep BG levels below 8.5 but obviously the lower the better. There is no harm in trying to do it without medication and if it works for the op - good on her. It has worked for me for the x number of years but I make sure that I keep an eye on my bg levels and my GP knows that I am sensible and if it starts creeping up, I will ask for metformin. I have the yearly diabetic eye tests to make sure my eyes aren't affected and so far no damage.

That's a bit harsh MOS. I think the OP is just trying to do the best she can in spite of the medical profession.

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 06-Feb-13 15:32:34

Mirry and headinthesand, sorry but levels you are discussing are not tight enough IMO I'd you are looking to do this by diet alone, I think you need to either get radical with diet or go down the medication route (diet is still high carb, too many grains and not enough protein and fat).

Post meal, 1 hr reading of 8.5 or more is not a good all.
2hr should be <7.8
3hr should be at baseline ie close to fasting bs and certainly under 6.
Fasting should be under 5.5 and ideally under 5.

Higher than these values and your bs is not under control, seriously it is not, and something needs to change.

I think current nhs advice about carb intake is both wrong and damaging, but you are eating far to much carb to control bs without medication!

Try something Mirry, please, 30 days on paleo and track your blood sugar, I can almost guarantee your bs levels will be in the ideal range at the end of that 4 weeks, but only if you completely ditch grains. Go on for info but basic idea is eat unprocessed meat fish eggs and poultry, coconut oil olive oil and lots of veg - (limited fruits), nuts and seeds as snacks. No grains, no milk, no sugar. No grains and especially no gluten containing grains is very important.

Headinsand, it is going to be more difficult for you, I wonder if it is going to be possible for you to control your bs well enough through diet alone, to protect your health because you are veggie - I think you will find it hard to cut carbs enough If you are not eating enough protein - so you think you can come to terms with eating eggs? That would make things a lot easier as they are both cheap and nutritious.

I applaud both of you for taking charge of your own health but if you are looking for something better than the official line of "eat lots of carbs and take this medication", then you need to get RADICAL with your diet or you will damage your health... If you can't, go on the tablets.

The above is of course my own opinion, and I mean no offence by it, but please think about what I have saidsmilegrin

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 06-Feb-13 15:36:35

Exit ...doing their best "in spite of the medical profession".

YY to this.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 15:50:49

MOSagain - I know you are very sensitive to the effects of diabetes after losing your Mum to it (and now you and your DD having it) and I'm sorry my reply to you was short. I should have posted more when I answered you before - but I have explained my reasons throughout the thread (and I was making eye appointments and trying to buy a monitor and strips etc).

I have chosen not to take Metformin (at the moment) as I want to see if I can control it with diet/exercise/weightloss - I don't see how that is being irresponsbile?

Re wasting the Drs & Nurses time - I spent 10 minutes with the Dr (added to the 10 minutes I spent a fortnight ago with the original Dr) - 20 minutes in 5 years isn't exactly a huge burden on the NHS. As for the nurse? Well, she's recommending eating lots of starchy carbs at least 3 times a day, she's said that diet plays no part in diabetes and that self monitoring is a waste of time - so forgive me if I don't think she has any idea what she's talking about. Her routinely prescribling metformin for all of 'her' patients is hardly personalised care tailored to my body, my diet, my needs - as she's not prepared to do that, I have taken control of the situation and will do what I think I need to do. I'm sorry if you feel that's wasting NHS resources.

I'm sorry you feel you are wasting your time.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 15:52:43

Mirry & Exit Thank you thanks

mirry2 Wed 06-Feb-13 16:03:56

Scotchandwry - thanks for your advice but this is exactly why I don't like discussing my diabetes in public. There will always be people around who think I should be doing something differently.

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 06-Feb-13 16:04:43

Exit, any high street ophthalmologist should be able to do an eye health check as part of an eye test - inexpensive or for free, and probably you can get an appointment within a week.

Can I point you and your dh in the direction of grain free paleo diet for blood sugar control, while I am stirring things up? smile has all the free info...

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 06-Feb-13 16:09:49

Indeed Mirry, but I am not in public smile. I think you are right about that - I don't discuss it with RL people either with the exception of dh who is a dr who is now starting to recommend paleo some patients, after seeing my results with it.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 16:12:00

Scotch Nice to see you again smile

I'm not sure if you were addressing Mirry or me when you said that it was necessary to get more radical with the diet?

I'm not sure I can get much more radical and still eat? confused

I am eating -

Breakfast: 1/2 avocado & 25g of cheddar cheese OR 100g total yogurt (full fat stuff).

Lunch & Dinner:


Finely chopped red cabbage, grated carrot, a little red pepper (about 1/5), 3 mushrooms and either a half avocado OR 1-2 Tbs of egg free mayonaise OR hommous OR 1-2 tbs of beans or lentils (but I haven't taken this option often)

Monday night I made a Thai Green Curry - it was a 'box' with the coconut milk and flavorings in it - 4.9g of carb per 100g, box being 200g. I made this into two meals (so 4.9g of carb per meal). I used cauli, brocolli, courgette, red pepper, mushroom, asparagus & spinach.

If I can't last without a snack - either a carrot and hommous OR about 15g of seeds.

A latte some days (none yesterday, none today)

I have ordered my monitor and hopefully it will arrive in the next day or so. I will bear your levels in mind.

2hr should be <7.8
3hr should be at baseline ie close to fasting bs and certainly under 6.
Fasting should be under 5.5 and ideally under 5.

I think current nhs advice about carb intake is both wrong and damaging, but you are eating far to much carb to control bs without medication!

Where?? Where are the too many carbs I'm eating sad

I know eating eggs would be helpful - but honestly, I just couldn't. The idea makes me feel ill - a bit like asking you to eat your own cat.

I applaud both of you for taking charge of your own health Thank you thanks

No offence taken at all!! I'm grateful for the time you are taking to post.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 16:14:39

Scotch - does your DH have any insight as to why the old 'eat lots of starchy carbs and take metformin' is still what's being pushed?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 06-Feb-13 16:17:15

OP - I am not diabetic or a low carber but I am vegan. What you said about a veg dish with a side of veg struck a chord with me and not feeling satisfied after.

I would say that maybe you should, within your restrictions, focus on packing in as much protein in your diet as you can. Meat is an easy, concentrated source of protein, but we can't have that.

Every meal you prepare yourself think, where is the protein coming from. Maybe get a My Fitness Pal account (free food logging) where you can track your calories and your fat/carbs/protein intake.

If you can't stomach eggs can you handle egg whites? And there is always protein shakes if you get stuck.

TVP and other meat substitutes...

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 16:23:04

Eye Test

I got the letter through to make an appointment today, so I rang the clinic, the woman said the first available test was April. April. She said they are really busy and that all the re-testers have been contacted to get them to book their appointments (seems odd but hey) so I said I was newly diagnosed so she said 'That's different, we'll get you seen sooner than that', the first date was the 28thof Feb, which wasn't tooooooo bad - but I asked if they had a cancellation list, which they did and she put me on it. She rang me about an hour later and said I could have it done tomorrow if I could get there. So I'm going at 3pm tomorrow - not at all bothered by the test, but I'm a bit nervous of the results sad

So anyone not too busy tomorrow afternoon, a bit of finger crossing would be lovely smile


The diabetes nurse checked my feet with a tickly stick pointy thing. The remain sensitive and as far as I can tell, the right colour and no cuts/thick skin or anything - do I need to do anything else?

Other Body Parts

Is there anything else I need to get checked out??


I have a horrible headache this afternoon and I'm about to have my friends 3 noisy monsters for a few hours... what's best to take? Paracetamol/Nurofen/makes no difference?

BIWI Wed 06-Feb-13 16:29:14

MyHead - have you weighed all your veg and worked out the carbs you're eating? I think that was what SCOTCH was meaning. Being a vegetarian (no eggs) wink does mean you're likely to be consuming a higher level of carbs than if you were basing your meals around meat.

Your headache is most likely to be carb withdrawal. From a weight loss perspective, I would recommend paracetamol rather than ibuprofen - but take whatever you have to hand/prefer to take. No need to suffer.

I'm glad you have managed to get an appointment sooner rather than later. April is bloomin' ridiculous! And fingers crossed for you that it goes well.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 16:38:06

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thank you for posting smile I might be able to join you again (being vegan), but I need to get this sorted first smile

I am not diabetic or a low carber but I am vegan. What you said about a veg dish with a side of veg struck a chord with me and not feeling satisfied after smile Yes, you just need 'something' else don't you to feel satisfied.

I would say ...focus on packing in as much protein in your diet as you can absolutely agree, it's just where to get that protein from (other than vegetables)?

I have been meaning to look into MFP but haven't got that far yet.

...can you handle egg whites? No. Not without heaving.

Dairy - I usually only eat soy yougurt, but have tried the total pot this week. I'm having cheese, but don't want to over do it. Some milk in lattes.

Nuts - Some, but I'm concerned about the fat/carb content

Pulses/Beans - Do I/Dont I, lots of conflicting advice.

Tofu - Looked at it yesterday, can't remember why I decided against it now?

Tempeh/Seitan - will look into these, never really used either, but seem to remember them being high carb? Will check it out.

Quorn/Edamame/TVP and other meat substitutes... I have had some, but they can be quite carby.

I think the problem is trying to do 'everything'.

Vegetarian (no egg)
Low carb
'Whole fat' but not too high fat (other than avocados) as carbs not low enough for ketosis
Cutting out processed stuff
Cutting out grains

... it's a bit like, OK, other than low carb veg... what's left?

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 16:44:47

BIWI thanks smile I have both to hand. I just wondered if one was better for blood sugars than the other, but I have to go out now, so I'll take the one better for weight loss!! I'm surprised I'm getting 'lack of carbs' headaches now, rather than a week ago?... but it could well be (no latte today! so carbs or caffine withdrawl or both possibly!! smile

I see what you mean about the veg, it's partly why I don't think I'd be in ketosis enough for Bootcamp, but I still didn't think it would be 'far too many carbs' in general, if you know what I mean. I've not been weighing it and I know some (especially the carrots - depending if old or new?!) are high in carbs so I will tomorrow.

Thanks for the finger crossing.

Right - off to the Monsters, back later!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 06-Feb-13 16:47:32

Seitan is mostly made with wheat gluten which is per 100g 80P/8C/1F (and 1 fibre). I get mine from low carbon mega store - it is the cheapest place (you may want to have a look at their other foods too for inspiration).

I think you may struggle going truly low carb on a veggie diet sad

BIWI Wed 06-Feb-13 17:11:44

MyHead - sorry, I don't know about the potential impact of analgesics on blood sugar levels, but hopefully others will do.

sazpops Wed 06-Feb-13 17:18:45

myhead - hope the head (out of the sand!) is feeling better soon. Re; tofu, I use it quite a bit. We're not keen on the plain, but Taifun (I think) do a smoked tofu with almonds and sesame seeds which is really nice - it's nice straight from the packet as well as to cook with. They also do a basil one, which is nice marinated in olive oil and lemon juice and grilled - also OK cold. They're quite filling and, if I remember correctly, are extremely low carb.

My cauliflower pizza base is made and awaiting it's topping - watch this space!

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 06-Feb-13 17:33:32

Sorry headinthesand I wasn't being very clear- I meant being veggie makes it harder to get lots of protein in your diet which isn't also packed with carbs, it just is more difficult - eggs would make it a lot easier! Do you not eat them at all? Would you be jailer to eat them if they came from free range, or from a local free range, small scale farmer?

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 06-Feb-13 17:34:14

Jailer! Happier !

MyHead I have just managed to catch up with your thread. I have type II diabetes, and was diagnosed in 2004. First of all I want to say, stop panicking and take a breath! It is a big shock to the system, googling and all the conflicting information you are given is difficult to sift through and you will need to find your own pathway through this. I was put on metformin straight away and I would recommend that if you have been prescribed this that you definitely take it, over time if you manage to lose weight and keep to a relatively low carb diet you may find that the dose can be reduced or stopped entirely. I also remember about a month after starting metformin when I had to put in my repeat prescription, have that moment of realisation that this is for life - previously every time you have been to the doctors and had tablet, you finish the course and are better. Now I had to come to terms with the fact that that wasn't going to happen.

As others have said, and as you youself can see through common sense, the official line of having to eat starchy carbs every meal doesn't seem to make much sense. When I do this, my blood sugars go up high then crash down. When following this diet I do at times need insulin to control my blood sugars which in turn leads to hypos, which in turn leads me to need sugar to bring back up my blood sugars, which in turn prevents me from losing weight and overall turns into one big mess as I struggle to stay within guidance for my bloods.

I think you have two choices - one is to go proper low carb (a la bootcamp stylee) where you keep your carbs to a minimum and keep your blood sugars very stable. You do have to commit to this though as you will need to up your fat and protein in your diet in order for it to work. If you read the low carb pages on mumsnet (there are some information pages unde the food section) this explains in simple terms the science behind needing to eat fat : protein: carbs in that order of importance when following this kind of diet. If you do choose this pathway you need to rewrite what 'breakfast' is - you can have anything you like for breakfast, I can recommend leftovers from the night before in general or your avocado and cheese sounds good.

The other choice is to go what I call medium carb. For me this was keeping my meals to a fist of carbs, a fist of protein and the rest veg on my plate at any meal. So for example if I had rice, pasta or potatoes then the appropriate portion size was the size of my hand when clenched in a fist, same for protein and fill up on veg the rest of the plate (generally this tends to be a quarter of a plate of carbs, quarter protein and half veg - assuming your plate isn't very big of course!). I tended to have porridge for breakfast, salad and a sandwhich filling or soup for lunch perhaps with half a slice of granary bread and then tea would be meat/fish, maybe a tablespoon or two or rice and then lots of veg (the greener the better).

My problem with the second woe is that I found I was getting hungry between meals, especially mid-morning and it was too easy to allow the carbs to creep back in, rendering my blood sugars unstable again. I also found that different carbs really affected my blood sugars completely differently and I found it hard to control as a result of this.

I have been doing bootcamp/low carb and have had much more success. I take metformin (850g twice a day) with my meals. When I first moved to completely low carb my blood sugars stablised almost straight away in that every time I tested I had a very similar result. However that result was still too high and I had to use my background insulin at nighttime to bring that number down, after only three days it was back down to normal levels and I have been able tor reduce my insulin dose at night to nearly nothing.

I am sorry this is so long and I hope it makes some sense to you!

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Wed 06-Feb-13 23:48:07

IAGTBF - thanks for that smile I'll have a look at the website. 8g of carbs per 100g is higher than I really want at the moment though, I'm trying to keep under 4 for most things, up to 5 occasionally. I agree, I think truely low carbing as a vegetarian will be/is hard! I think it's OK for a couple of weeks, a month or whatever if you just want to lose weight, but as a 'forever' thing it's tricky. Still, I'll do my best for now, keep it as low carb as I can & hope to drop some serious weight. They say 10% really helps to lower your BGL, so I'll see.

BIWI - I rarely take anything, so hopefully wont need to for a while and when I do I can test with my new meter wink

Sazpops - you tease smile

SCOTCH - No, I really don't eat eggs at all. I might have the odd bit as an ingredient of something (when I'm out/at friends) like a cake (but I don't buy them, I use egg free recipes), but not in something like quiche etc or egg as an egg. The idea of it just makes me feel sick - I wouldn't be any jailer happier to eat them regardless of where they're from. I understand that is hard to understand smile But honesty, I feel the way about regular eggs as most 'normal' people would about eating cat.

tazzle22 Thu 07-Feb-13 00:01:50

wow you are certainly getting lots of input on this thead grin

just an answer to your questions to me .. I find that wholemeal granary or seeded is ok for me , just one slice usually at a time... its 14 - 18 carbs depending on the brand.

What I am finding is that it is not just as simple as counting the numbers and that if you have x number of carbs then your BG will move a set y points... oh nothing so easy confused, White bread seems to just escalate the numbers more than the equivelant amount wholemeal / seeded ( well that is the basis of GI count though isn't it wink )

This imo is why its so vital that we each understand our individual bodies reactions and tailor our diet accordingly.

Re not following nurses / nhs advice ........ well usually I would be in agreement that often / usally its not a good idea to ignore medical advice.

But there is a problem with the situation regarding diet / diabetes etc. Some of the studies that were done that shaped current advice are now being found to be seriously flawed ... there are many medics who have kept up with newer studies and will indeed support actions such as reducing carbs and not leaping immediately on all T2 diabetics prescribing statins and bG lowering medications. They have their ear to the ground and realising that there are indeed changes happening.

They are also realising that we MUST address this issue at a far ealier stage than the current cut off point for being officialy diabetic. Thing is that not all GP's NUrses ... or even the NHS as an organisation .... find it easy to change "habits". Its like trying to change direction in a huge oil tanker in the sea... takes a loooooooong time.

There has to be a realisation that maybe the advice thats has been given out for soooooo long is maybe flawed

... that maybe in the drive for a lower fat diet we have stuffed so much starch / carbs / sugar into "healthy" foods that we have contributed to high obesity levels not helped to lower them. We have become so used to that sweet taste we crave it and the situation escalates.

Oh its a huuuuuuuuge topic .... lets just say that if you hang around long enough there will be official changes and even complete U turns grin

i mean remeber when eggs were good for you (remember the catchphrase "go to work on an egg" anyone) .... then they were too high in fat / gave you salmonella ..... now they are good for us again !!!!!!!

and so is butter again. grin ... and marg according to the latest news is the "bad boy" now.

nothing like toeing the offical line eh wink

sorry I am do not mean any disrepect to anyone that has lost friends and family to diabetes ... but HCP ( and I am one) dont have all the "right" answers.. "right" changes according to research / evidence.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 00:18:07

MrsHP - Hello smile Well done for making it through the whole thread - some of my posts are mammoth! Don't be sorry yours was long!! > the more people write the more it helps.

I would recommend that if you have been prescribed this that you definitely take it - Why? Based on what? (Blind faith in the medical profession, even those really not trained in diabetes?) It was simply prescribed because it's what she does for every single diabetes patient she has, no family history, no medical history, she thinks the NHS high carb diet is a good idea & inists that self testing is a waste of time hmm - I can't see any good reason to blindly follow her.

you will need to find your own pathway through this I couldn't agree more and part of that is deciding whether I think metformin is something I need or not. I'm not saying I wont take it, I'm saying I want to make an informed decision.

As I said before, I have no problem with 'left overs' for breakfast, but at the moment dinner is the salad/coleslaw type affair and I cannot face that 3 times a day! I'm getting fed up of it twice a day and I'm finding it hard to think of other things to make (couldn't face Thai Green Curry for breakfast!) I need to check out the Bootcamp Recipe thread again!

I'm struggling to find vegetarian (no egg) sources of low carb protein, that's why I'm asking for suggestions.

You say there are two options - Bootcamp Low or (your) Med Carb. At the moment I'm much closer to bootcamp, but probably not in ketosis due to veg intake... I can't just eat avocado and cheese as sources of fat/protein, I need to find other things.

I'm really, really pleased that Bootcamp is working for you!! smile

I wish there were some D2, (non egg eating) vegetarians to say what they are eating! :/

I hope that makes some sense, I'm knackered!

Metformin is not just used in the control of diabetes, it's prescribed for PCOS and as a fertility drug. I know that when I don't take it regularly my blood sugars are higher over a period of time. In my experience taking it helps me to lose weight quicker and to keep my blood sugars lower and more stable. I csn't really see any reason why someone would choose not to take it as it can't possibly hinder the control of your condition.

Where does protein come from in your diet currently then? Do you eat fish? Sorry if you have answered that and I have missed it! I think tofu has less than 5g of carbs per 100g, but due to its make up (something to do with amino something's) it pushes people out of ketosis.

Some possible suggestions to differ between lunch and dinner - salads for lunches (different lettuces on different days to mix it up, cucumber, celery, cheeses, salad dressings - make your own from from different oils, vinegars (not balsamic), halloumi is brilliant as you can cut it up small and fry it, leave to cool slightly and it goes crispy like croutons!). Dinners different veg, roast lots of things green beans roasted are good, cauliflower rice is nice and easy, maybe some tofu here in small amounts. I know bootcamp rules say vegetarians should have some nuts so maybe small amounts of nuts made into stuff? I will see if I can think of anything else...

tazzle22 Thu 07-Feb-13 00:37:47

have pmd you the direction to experienced vegans with diabetes who might be able to offer you some support.wink

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 00:47:18

Tazzle - I just wrote a really long reply and the bloody laptop ate it!!

wow you are certainly getting lots of input on this thead - Yes I have and I'm really very grateful for everyone taking the time to post, it's certainly helpful having you all to talk it through with! Lots of different opinions smile

wholemeal granary or seeded is ok for me I look forward to trying it one day, a while from now smile

I am finding is that it is not just as simple as counting the numbers and that if you have x number of carbs then your BG will move a set y points... oh nothing so easy Yes, that's going to be very frustrating - I have a very logical/mathmatical type brain and so thing that don't 'conform' annoy me!

It's good that some medics are looking in this (Eenfledt for one!) and are admitting the advice given out has been wrong - though god knows how long that will take to hit mainstream thinking!! Very much like changing direction in a huge oil tanker!!

... yes, definitely the good egg/bad egg/good egg situation smile

I've never fallen into the marg trap - it's butter or nothing. All that added crap cannot be good for you! I know I've eaten worse in processed food, but I've never bought anything but butter to eat or use in cooking.

nothing like toeing the offical line eh - some people think that if the Govt says it, it must be right... nothing to do with funding or whatever, no... of course not! hmm

HCP ( and I am one) dont have all the "right" answers.. "right" changes according to research / evidence and I'd have to add in capitals FUNDING.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 01:00:37


Metformin is not just used in the control of diabetes, it's prescribed for PCOS and as a fertility drug I know that, but how does that relate to me? I haven't been prescribed it for either of those and don't need it for either of those??

I haven't said I wont take it, I just want to make an informed decision. I'm information gathering at the moment and I want to know what my readings are without metformin. I don't think spending a little time doing that is a bad thing - otherwise how am I going to have any idea if the woe is working or if it's just the metformin?

No, I don't eat fish, I'm vegetarian.

Before this my protein came from a lot more cheese, more quorn, milk, beans, lentils & vegetables. Now it's coming from less cheese, less quorn, less milk, far less beans/lentils & more vegetables

I think tofu has less than 5g of carbs per 100g, but due to its make up (something to do with amino something's) it pushes people out of ketosis yes, I seem to remember this as well.

It's not that I want to differ between lunch and dinner - it's that I need to add things back in, but I'm undecided as to which I'll add back in...

Yes - Haloumi is nice isn't it smile

I think what I was trying to say about the metformin is that Ivan see why you might not follow the nhs advice about eating carbs as try clearly ate going to push your blood sugar levels up and they is what you want to avoid. Metformin can't possibly have a detrimental effect on your blood sugars and so, seeing as your bloods have clearly been extremely high at times I just couldn't see why you wouldn't take it initially at least. As a type 2 diabetic your body doesn't produce enough insulin or the insulin it does produce is ineffective and metformin combats this. Diet doesn't, it just stops your blood sugars going as high as they might with large quantities of carbs. As I said only you can make your own decisions and I think I'll brownout of this thread now as I find it hard to know y

You might be causing yourself damage by not taking the metformin to control it. I have background retinopathy from poor control previously buy as you say your decision. I am not vegetarian and I eat eggs so I don't think there is much else I can say.

I hope you find you are able to control it in a way your are happy with. Good luck for everything.

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 07-Feb-13 07:54:09

Great posts from mrs hercule and tazzel, lots of good points made.

Metformin and pcos fertility issues as well as diabetes.. These issues are all part of syndrome x/ diseases of civilisation... And many people find all of these issues resolve on the grain free, lower carb higher fat and protein diet. Many, many medical conditions root cause is a disordered insulin response and all the knock on effects to the rest of a persons metabolism. There is plenty of science to back that up but it tends to be individual papers looking at individual diseases rather than looking at the whole body.

Headinthesand, I think you have a choice to make, or you will find it really hard to get the nutrients you need to stay low carb. I respect your choice to be vegetarian but I think you need to consider your choice in relation to your illness and what you are trying to do with your diet.
Is there any form of animal protein you are happy to eat (cheese is good I know you eat that, check labels as some has more protein than others!), prawns? Shellfish??? smile I know you don't eat these.... But could you?

Bunbaker Thu 07-Feb-13 08:16:53

"Great posts from mrs hercule and tazzel, lots of good points made."

I agree. One of my friends is a doctor who specialises in diabetes. She gets frustrated with patients who don't follow sensible medical advice or who don't take control and responsibility for their health because the effects of diabetes are insidious and aren't obvious until it is too late to do anything about them.

As someone with poor eyesight anyway I would be paranoid about losing it altogether.

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 07-Feb-13 08:25:07

Lol tho bunbaker I was not really meaning follow current medical advice... Far too many carbs to control bs by diet, IMO a much more radical diet such as paleo is needed to give good control without medication.

sazpops Thu 07-Feb-13 08:58:26

Now, the news you've all been waiting for - what was the cauliflower pizza like? Well, I wouldn't say it was an unqualified success - it tasted good, but I'd expected the base to firm up more (it was a bit soggy). I will try it again, but here's a link in case anyone else is brave enough to have a go!

headinthesand - I had a thought, have you tried quinoa? We have it quite often as a 'filler' and it is lower carb than grains AND contains protein. It doesn't affect DH's levels adversely, I think because of it's make-up.

This thread has really moved on since I last posted - you must feel overwhelmed with information! Good luck with sorting it all out!

isithometime Thu 07-Feb-13 09:08:29

scotch I agree, to control with diet requires radical changes, not anything close to what diabetic nurses advise

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 09:19:42

MrsHP - Would you say that HbA1c of 9.3 & fasting of 10.9 is extremely high? I thought they were both definitely high, but not extremely??

I have read quite a few posts (on the various diabetes sites) where people with similiar and higher results have lowered them to an acceptable level with diet, weightloss and exercise (without drugs)?!

As diabetes is progressive, I just want to do what I can with diet/weightloss/exercise now so that metformin is the next step, rather than take that step now and then have to take a bigger dose/something else 'next' - does that make sense?

As a type 2 diabetic your body doesn't produce enough insulin or the insulin it does produce is ineffective and metformin combats this. Diet doesn't, it just stops your blood sugars going as high as they might with large quantities of carbs

I thought that weightloss would mean there could be enough insulin for my needs.
I thought that a low carb diet would mean less sugar in my blood so less insulin needed.
I thought that weight loss lowers your blood sugar.

Is that not right? and if it is right then why isn't it possibly enough?

How much damage can I really cause by monitoring my blood sugars for a couple of weeks before deciding whether to take the metformin or not? I've seemingly had this for quite a few years - will a couple of weeks make that much difference?

Please don't bow out - I am listening, I just need to understand and make my own decision.

But if you do - thank you for your help, it's certainly given me things to think about and thank you for your good wishes.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 09:34:20

SCOTCH - No, I couldn't. I really couldn't. Honestly, I struggle with dairy and as I said, just before this I was looking at ditching that again as well.

Bunbaker - One of my friends is a doctor who specialises in diabetes. She gets frustrated with patients who don't follow sensible medical advice or who don't take control and responsibility for their health because the effects of diabetes are insidious and aren't obvious until it is too late to do anything about them

I am taking responsibility for my health. Medical advice (the nurse) to eat lots of starchy carbs and take metformin because she prescribes it to everyone with diabetes is hardly sound, personal, professional advice.

I am worried about losing my eyesight and all of the other devastating things diabetes can cause - if I wasn't, I wouldn't be doing all of this - I'd have just ignored it all and carried on as I was.

What diet does your friend advise?

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 09:38:59

Sazpops - thanks for the review smile What a shame is wasn't quite as you'd hoped/expected. Why don't you have a look at the one on the Bootcamp Recipe thread?

I used to have quinoa a lot, but haven't for ages. I was reading about it yesterday and thought I should get some, so funny you have posted that too!

isithometime - are you saying that you don't think my changes are enough? What else do you think I should change? (other than upping the protein)

sazpops Thu 07-Feb-13 10:10:45

I hadn't been on that thread before myhead, there are one or two things I might try, thanks. The cauli pizza on there is practically identical to mine, with different cheese.

Looking through a few of the recipes, I can see your problem with not eating eggs, as they are used in so many dishes. Racking my brains to think what you could substitute.

Yes I do thinking fasting of 10.9 is high. I would be concerned if my sugar level after eating was that high, let alone after fasting. As I said earlier I would take the metformin initially, if you manage to control bloods and lose weight trough diet you may well be able to come off this later. Controlling via diet alone is difficult. You have to be very strict all of the time, you can't have anything carby at all like rice, pasta, potatoes and you will find fruit and anything sweet probably sends you flying high. It is a life long commitment to eating this way. You are already thinkin about introducing higher carb foods in order to get protein and I am not sure realistically how well you can control via a vegetarian diet without eggs. Jus my opinion of course.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 10:35:30

sazpops - It's a good thread isn't it smile

MrsHP - If I started taking metformin how would I know if it was that or the diet that was making the difference? How would I know I could come off it?

I don't know but realistically it would be a combination of both. Once your bloods/hba1c is stabilised and in acceptable levels then you could slowly reduce your metformin dose and keep monitoring it.

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 07-Feb-13 11:25:25

I think mrsH make a very good point I'm her post of 10.17am,

In order to get enough protein and fats to keep you healthy, while keeping carbs low enough to level your blood sugar is going to be almost impossible on an almost vegan diet... I think in your particular case because of those additional difficulties, going on the metformin initially might be a good idea - you would know when to reduce the medication, if you started to see very good fasting bloods (less than 4.8 to 5.0), you could then half the dose and keep eating the same and see what happened.

Unfortunately, the higher carb levels you are going to need to eat to get sufficient protein for good health might have been fine if you had impaired glucose tolerance, you might have still got good control of your bs levels but you have gone beyond that - those fasting levels are properly diabetic and I think at least initially you need the metformin to kick start things.

To be veggie is absolutely your choice but I do think you ate going to find it hard to stay off medication if you remain veggie... I know a few paleo people who were veggie and got really sick and had to make that decision - one has become a big meat eater but the others were happier to go down the prawns and shellfish route on the ground that they are not "higher" animals in the way that vertebrate fish, poultry and mammals are iykwim... Your choice of course and I understand why you wouldn't want to go down that route grin

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 12:13:36

I have just been reading these success stories here some with diet & exercise alone (some with higher levels than my own!) and some with medication as well, some still on it, some coming off of it. They are old posts, but no less relevant I don't think.

MrsHP - Yes, I guess so. My monitor should arrive tomorrow and I definitely want to have a look at my levels for a few days, but I will seriously consider the use of metformin after that.

SCOTCH - Yes, you are right as well. I could take it and reduce it myself if/when my fasting bloods are consistently low. Perhaphs I just need to view the metformin as a way of kickstarting things and not the beginning of the slipperly slope to insulin injections.

Being veggie is a choice - but, to be honest, it doesn't feel like a choice to me now (after 22 years and really not wanting to eat meat for many, many years before that but my parents were not supportive of that). I'm not trying to be dramatic, just trying to explain that for me, it's no different...I could no sooner eat 'normal' meat or fish/shellfish than I could your cat or dog. I know that's probably hard to understand as a meat eater, especially when doing so would probably help me and make life a lot easier and I really do appreciate your kindly worded suggestion, but I just couldn't do it. Sorry sad

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 07-Feb-13 12:31:15

I do understand what you mean smile, my sil is veggie and feels as you do - she eats eggs tho so easier for her.

You will find the monitor very instructive - for about a month I tested very frequently, fasting bs every morning, and before eating and 1, 2 and 3 hrs after eating - along with a food diary this really showed up what was the best and worst foods for me. Then I went down to just doing fasting bs daily and 2hr after eating - now I just do the occasional fasting bs and a series of tests for 3 days maybe every 3 months or so - and dial back on the carbs if the bs readings are creeping up toward high normal again (always because I've started eating just a little bit more starchy veg... For me, going above 80-100g of carb a day, and it starts to go to hell! I think 50g or less a day is perfect for me (not bootcamp levels, this is long term). Everybody is different and some people can come with more carbs than others - you need to find what your tolerance is and hopefully you can work round the veggie "problem"!

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 07-Feb-13 12:32:47

*cope with

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 07-Feb-13 12:34:27

Interesting links btw, not read those ones before.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 13:14:23

SCOTCH smile Yes, hopefully the monitor will arrive soon and I'll be able to get testing (ouch).

I've been reading lots of things like that these past few days from links people have given me and googling. It does give me hope that it can be managed and thus slow down the progression.

I was going to order some ketostix to monitor whether I'm in ketosis or not (a la Bootcamp stylee) so went on eBay and it said this

Bayer Ketostix Reagent Strips (Ketone) Ketostix Reagent Strips for Urinalysis provide detection of ketones in urine. The strips provide a fast, convenient way of testing urine for the presence and concentration of acetoacetic acid (ketone). This substance when found in the urine provides information on carbohydrate and fat metabolism. Acetoacetic acid can be found in the urine from diabetics and is more commonly referred to as a "ketone body." Use of KETOSTIX Reagent Strips can alert you and your doctor to changes in your condition

So, I think I misunderstood what you said before when you said

ketoacidosis - not the same as having ketones due to being on a diet but a very dangerous condition which can be triggered quite quickly when blood sugar spiral out of control

If I'm using the ketostix how do I know if it's 'good' (ie bootcamp burning fat) or bad (diabetic signs) - or are you saying that you think being in ketosis isn't good for a diabetic??

SCOTCHandWRY Thu 07-Feb-13 15:53:10

Re ketones, actually I'm not sure.

If your blood sugar is high, you do not want to be producing ketones because in the presence on high blood sugar, ketones mean things are at risk of spiralling out of control and you can become dangerously ill ie fall into a hyper glycemic coma - blood sugar can rise very rapidly over a few hours and the blood becomes more acidic - keatoacidosis.

In a non diabetic, ketones will be produced when you have low/normal blood sugar and not eating anything (fasting) or not eating much carb foods. This is not dangerous and can't lead to keatoacidosis.

I guess impaired glucose tolerance people are fine doing bootcamp style low carb because their blood sugar levels are not massively high and also they are not as insulin resistant as a full diabetic - so levels will come down fast in if carbs are cut right down to a minimum.

I don't know how safe it would be for you to push yourself into ketosis at this stage- I would be thinking about getting your levels down a bit for a couple of weeks first, I think that would be a sensible thing to do- and maybe another reason to consider metformin as a kick starter even if your goal is to control by diet (a sensible goal IMHO !).

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 17:20:50

SCOTCH I'll have a read of that and reply later. I've just got home from my eye test and things are still a bit blurry!! My touch typing is fine (or at least I hope so, I might find it otherwise when I can see properly again grin)

I just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone who had their fingers crossed for me - my eyes are perfectly OK.

The young guy (who really did not look anything like old enough to be at Uni let alone qualified and let loose on the public) was lovely, really really lovely.

He took the photos, then explained really clearly what we were looking at, what all the 'bits' were and showed me that there isn't any damage and that if I take care with my bsl's I should be fine. That probably in 5-10 years I will show a small amount of background retinopathy, but that if I control my diabetes it would just be like a wee scar on my hand from a scratch and not affect my eyesight at all - so that's GREAT!

We also talked about diabetes in general quite a bit and what he sees on a daily basis and he gave me great hope for being able to control it with diet, exercise and weight loss - but also agreed with those of you saying I should take the metformin for now and reduce it later - he was astonished at the NHS handouts recommending high starchy carbs but also said that he thinks I shouldn't go too low with the carbs and should eat more of the complex carbs. But as he said, although he's covered biology and diabetes etc within that, eyes are his thing grin

I will get a written report within 6 weeks after everything has been checked by someone else - but you could see clearly on the screen that there weren't any red spots or bulges of the veins etc - so I'm happy with today's verdict - very very relieved.

tazzle22 Thu 07-Feb-13 17:22:42

I echo the steady as she goes approach too.... its the swinging up and down with levels that does more damage to say the eyes than a slightly elevated but steady blood sugar.

If you suddenly drop very low but then swing back high with trying things you dont know shoots you personally high... well I dont know for sure the effects but I have heard on another forum that 3- 4 weeks of poor levels did affect one perons eyes.. thankfully not too bad and not permanent but it was noticable .... casued macula oedema ?

NOt trying to frighten you , just let you know what I have been finding out too recently.

I have heard that to tazzle about the unstableness if blood sugars causing problems.

myhead I am glad the initial quick look the person doing your screening did today didn't show up any issues, however just be aware this didn't mean there isn't any background retinopathy. You need to wait until you get the confirmation letter once it has been fully assessed, I was t

Sry! I have been told at the steering no signs and then the letter came saying I had background retinopathy a shirt while later one time. Of course I hope that isn't the case with you, but just be aware that the screeners can't actually confirm the all clear, it needs to be l at in the lab.

Mynewmoniker Thu 07-Feb-13 20:00:26

"I echo the steady as she goes approach too.... its the swinging up and down with levels that does more damage to say the eyes than a slightly elevated but steady blood sugar." tazzle22

Don't want to divert from this thread but recent research says simillar about blood pressure too. Constantly highish = not really a problem as the veins can accomodate as they have stretched. Up and down = worrying as veins can't take the sudden surge.

Mynewmoniker Thu 07-Feb-13 20:04:32

Great news so far about the eyes MyHead smile

I have a little background retinopothy in the left eye. I didn't get a prescription for glasses (I was dreading the faff!) I just use my good eye more grin

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 20:39:00

sad It just hit me, all of a sudden - diabetic. Diabetes for life and nothing I do will change it sad I wont 'get over' this. No matter what I do, I'm always going to be diabetic with all of it's complications and consequences sad Always. Forever. For the rest of my life. FUCK. sad

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 20:59:25

SCOTCH I couldn't be more confused. I've just read the leaflet with the ketostix. The whole thing is about testing when you have diabetes & saying that if it's a certain level you need to contact your health professional etc etc. I'm ++ moderate. Now - this is what the bootcampers are aiming for (well a bit lower - so need to drink more water) but for me is this a good thing or a bad thing? Everyone was saying to cut carbs right down and I have, not it seems that maybe I shouldn't?? I don't suppose you could ask your DH if he knows?

Eyes - OK, I get it. Today's results mean jack shit sad and I'll have to wait until I get the report. MrsHP, sorry you had good news then bad sad Have yours stayed the same since you were originally diagnosed? MNM sorry about your results too. My initial test didn't go too well, I could only read the line second from the bottom, not the bottom one - but I'm hoping that's just an age thing... but as you have all said, I'll have to wait and see.

Keeping levels stable I understand what you are saying about it being better if your levels are stable rather than spiking and dropping, but that's impossible unless I don't try anything different surely?? Maybe it's another reason to take the metformin, it should lessen the spikes when testing shouldn't it??

The sand is looking inviting...

Mynewmoniker Thu 07-Feb-13 22:04:28

Hey MyHead Are you OK? Where are you?

mirry2 Thu 07-Feb-13 22:39:36

Myhead, I thik you are getting really bogged down with all this information and the stress of the diagnosis. Diabetes may be for life but it doesn't have to rule it. Plenty of people have it and they lead a perfectly happy and successful lives. Steve Redgrave is aprime example - he has diabetes1, like a lot of others - just be glad you only have diabetes 2
The problem is that everyone has an opinion on how to control it, what it can lead to etc. This iexactly why i am always very careful not to get into discussions about it in RL. It would just do my head in.

Just give yourself time to take it all in. Once you get your monitor you will be able to see the size of the problem a little clearer. You say you think you must have had diabetes for some time so what you do now and over the next few weeks is highly unlikely to damage your body any further. For now, take it easy, take plenty of exercise, cut down on sweet things and if you can identify any food that definitely causes you to feel unwell, cut it out of your diet.

MyHead Hope you are OK. I know what you mean about suddenly realising that something is going to be with you forever. It happened to me when I was 13 and had an operation and was left with a big scar on my knee, and one night in hospital I suddenly realised that I was scarred for life. Not in the same league as diabetes of course, but still .... With regards to the eye tests, once you have had the tests, is there anything different that can be done? DH claims that his eye sight is deteriorating, but he had a detached retina a few years ago so we never really know what is going on.

Re the NHS, DH heard a tale today about an old lady with diabetes who was blind. The District Nurse delivered some litmus papers to her and told her how to use them confused.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 22:59:25

MNM - I'm at home, I'm 'ok' (a bit of a sobbing mess if I'm being honest, but 'ok'). It just keeps hitting me in waves. I've got so many other things going on in my life that I'm barely coping with - I just don't need this as well (like anyone else does!?).

I'm just so exhausted (even before this dx - though it's certainly not helping). I don't have the energy to deal with everything.

I can't even contemplate a life full of so much monitoring, measuring, worrying about everything you eat all the time -worrying what damage it will do if you don't worry about everything you eat. For example, I eat at my friends house a lot normally (I help them out a lot so tend to be there at meal times), but now it just feels like such a hassle on top of being vegetarian. Never being able to do this (take the kids to the beach for a chippy tea) or have that (someone on the bootcamp mentioned snickers bars and the fact they couldn't contemplate the idea of never having one again) or join in with stuff (sharing things with people)... never being able to be relaxed about food. It's hard to explain how I feel - but it's not so much the food per se, but the social part of it - does that make sense?

I don't want to tell people, but I hate feeling like I'm lying to them.

I just want it to go away.

Before anyone tells me to get a grip, I know other people are going through much worse, but right now this is the straw that broke the camels back and the camel has had E N O U G H sad

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 23:15:52

Mirry Thank you smile I'm sure you're right. I don't think there's much left in my diet to cut down on - I'll be eating thin air next grin

Exit Thank you too smile I was told today that diabetics are entitled to free eye tests at regular opticians too and that I should go for one, but to leave it a few months until my sugars are under control because they'll need to 'settle down' so I'm hoping that the slight blurring I get at night in bad lighting goes away. It'll be interesting to see how trying to get a free check up goes grin

... as for your DH's story - funnily enough it doesn't surprise me in the slightest sad

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 23:27:15

OK - Grip Got. Off to bed now, tomorrow's going to be a long day so need to try to get some sleep. Thanks all x

Mynewmoniker Thu 07-Feb-13 23:33:02

Hey MyHead Have you thought of eating DUST? grin

Keep thinking of the free alcohol you get...even if it is just rubbed onto your arm before they take bloods.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Thu 07-Feb-13 23:37:45


Dust is probably too high in carbs - which is a shame as there's a plentiful supply here!!

I am going to go to bed now because if I don't that Kit Kat that's screaming my name is going to be the sacrificial object and we can't have that now can we smile

tazzle22 Thu 07-Feb-13 23:39:25

Right ...... ok its hit you ..... but remember what has been said here and in pm to you .... dont panic mr mannering !!!!!!!!

In actuality your BG are not THAT high, not so high that you are in iminent danger......... not so high that you need to drastically cut your carbs back to what you have been

and if trying to get to boot camp levels of carbs on the practicallly vegan diet is streeig you ...... well stress is another thing that will put BG UP up up


I know you dont want to be told what to do and I dont reeally want to be "shouting" ... and in RL I would proably just invite you to join me sitting by the fire and offer you a brew and a chat .... but I feel that really its kinda like just taking a firm hold on someone thats running scared and saying.... look its OK

Yes diabetes is for life, yes you wll have to change some things in your life,
yes if you decide to lower carbs it may be harder for you ( or anyone) than if you take metformin and "eat normally". Loads of people do that and have ok BG levels and dont get the complications.

Yes it can indeed be scary, ...... and frustrating cos the path you choose means you cant have the foods you previousy loved....

thats kinda why I have been saying not to rush to change things drastically.

thats why folk have been saying not to cut back too much on the carbs to start with until you have a bit more knowledge and support around you (even on line support if not local/ RL) ..... cutting back before you have substitutes sorted out is not good.......... and a week or so more wont cause any other problems.

For the first couple weeks I had a meter I ate mostly as normal till I got a pattern going.... then changed just a few things, dropped some things or just cut back depending on the results.

Sudden changes should really only take place with medical / knowledgable assistance.... (wink)

I wont be on here till tomorrow evening but feel free to pm me if you want to chat in private and if you want it the offer of *holds out a hand ... is here at thei scary time.

You will be fine........ smile

Right, it has hit you and it is horrid, horrid, horrid when it does. Have a good old cry, then onwards and upwards (or should at be downwards with the bloods wink.

I would say you have to monitor carefully initially, but once under control and on track you can have the odd chocolate bar or whatever, but you are right it is tough knowing this can't be very often. You need to work out meal plans for you, I think honestly if I was you for now I'd have porridge for breakfast, salad for lunch then tea of vegetables with small portion (eg heaped tablespoon) of carb (basmati rice or couscous, beans etc). You probably can eat a lot of meals you had before, but change the balance of things on our plate so halve the rice and double the veg. Maybe thinking about it this way initially will be less daunting and manageable. That along with the Metformin will make a big difference. Once you are tested again (have they asked you to repeat tests in 3months?) this should sow a big change, you will feel more in control then if you want to make more changes you could. How does that sound?

Big hugs and brew.

MyHead Sorry to be nosy, again, but how old are you? Not sure if you have said somewhere in the thread.

I am 53 and DH is 66 so his is very much age related (as well as weight).

Hope you are feeling more positive today.

Myhead you do get free eye check ups, just tell the optician you're diabetic and they'll tell you what you need to do to claim entitlement. Dad gets them because he's diabetic, I get them because my eyesight is so crap grin

SCOTCHandWRY Fri 08-Feb-13 11:27:00

Hi headinsand, read over my post of 15.53 yesterday, I tried to explain the Ketones and high blood sugar thin the best way I know how!

I spoke to my dh and he says he just doesn't know the answer to your question about the safety but if you are testing bs frequently, you would be able to keep an eye on it - of bs stays lowish and you have ketones it should be fine... But he is also saying go on the metformin at least for now.

mirry2 Fri 08-Feb-13 11:37:56

op - Tazzles and herculees are talking sense. Your BS aren't all that high and I suspect won't take much to get them lower. Don't deprive yourself of an occasional treat and youm may also be able to eat those chippy suppers etc but not so often and just much smaller portions.

Try eating your usual meals and see which ones send your BG levels soaring the next morning. It will give you an early indication of what is really bad for you. I said in one of my previous posts that white bread did it for me so I very rarely eat it - but I DO eat it ocassionally.

SCOTCHandWRY Fri 08-Feb-13 11:57:12

Dh also suggests that a blood ketone meter would be more accurate than pee sticks if you want to go down that route you will almost certainly have to buy it yourself.

He thought maybe someone at the British diabetic association might be able to advice you on specific questions which your diabetic nurse or consultant haven't answered - worth a try?

SCOTCHandWRY Fri 08-Feb-13 12:00:37

Interesting linky! I don't know if I know how to do a live link from my phone but here is the address -

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 08-Feb-13 20:09:17

I'm not panicking!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't panic, it's not in my nature I leave that to my mother who panics enough for the whole family

I was whinging!!!! grin

I have vodka and I have slim tonic - no carbs, no sugar, no nothing... (probably no flavour in either, but hey, I have alcohol grin). I may not have any tonight, I may not have any for weeks... but I have it smile I assume that's OK for my blood sugars?? If not, I have part of my friends birthday present! <sob>

I have also found a few convenience things that I think might be OK for my blood sugars, which if they work out, will semi-solve the problem of eating at my friends house most of the time. They might not be OK - but it's worth a try.

When I got home from work there was a card through the door to say there was a package at the Post Office Depot for me - it's either my monitor or test strips and lancets. I wish I knew which, it's an pain in the bum to have to go there to collect one tomorrow and then go back on Monday to collect the other (I wont be home tomorrow when the postie comes - what happened to leaving parcels at the neighbours??) I want to go and get it if it's the monitor, but would leave it if it was the other.

It is bloody cold here!! The heating's taking an age to kick in... supposedly slushy sleet tomorrow :/

Mynewmoniker Fri 08-Feb-13 21:41:27

SCOTCHandWRY Thank you so much for this link. The best I've read about the low carb way of reducing readings. I will recommend it to others. smile

Mynewmoniker Fri 08-Feb-13 21:58:10

Nice to see you around again MyHead. I'm sat here nursing a gin and diet lemonade. Just a small one you understand smileHic! *

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 08-Feb-13 22:20:27


... dont panic mr mannering !!!!!!!! That made me laugh, I used to love that show when I was little smile

in RL I would proably just invite you to join me sitting by the fire and offer you a brew and a chat That would be lovely smile

I don't feel like you are shouting or telling me what to do.

In actuality your BG are not THAT high I get told they are, then I get told they aren't - I actually really don't know anymore.

... not so high that you need to drastically cut your carbs back to what you have been You don't think so? Cutting back quite drastically on the carbs is two fold - both not eating things that will make my levels shoot up and dropping weight so that they are generally better.

and if trying to get to boot camp levels of carbs on the practicallly vegan diet is streeig you ...... well stress is another thing that will put BG UP up up That was one reason I didn't want to join in the Bootcamp, I don't need the extra pressure. But then I was pretty much told off for not commiting to this properly :/

yes if you decide to lower carbs it may be harder for you ( or anyone) than if you take metformin and "eat normally". Loads of people do that and have ok BG levels and dont get the complications Really? I was under the impression that you either needed to go low carb or just keep increasing your meds?? I haven't really come across people who are eating normally, taking minimal metformin and maintaining at that.

Yes it can indeed be scary, ...... and frustrating cos the path you choose means you cant have the foods you previousy loved.... I don't think I can have them even if I take the metformin can I?

thats why folk have been saying not to cut back too much on the carbs to start with until you have a bit more knowledge and support around you (even on line support if not local/ RL) ..... cutting back before you have substitutes sorted out is not good.......... and a week or so more wont cause any other problems I don't think going low carb can hurt anyone - so I'm sure it's fine smile It's just bloody boring as an almost vegan.

feel free to pm me if you want to chat in private and if you want it the offer of *holds out a hand ... is here at thei scary time

When are you getting your results back??

Thank you smile You have all been brilliant and it's been invaluable to have so much support and so many different opinions.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 08-Feb-13 22:38:34

MrsHP Yes, I had a 10 min sob-fest last night (mind you, it was coming anyway, I have my period, my uncle died last week & there's some other crap going on too!), but as you say - onward and updownward smile

I have to go back in 3 months for another set of fasting bloods (she wants fasting bloods to re-check my cholesterol and to try to get me on a statin - but that's not going to happen. I'll take my chances without that).

I can see what you are saying - but I think I'm going to try to do it seriously low-carb (well, seriously low carb as in no potato, rice, bread etc no so much worrying about whether carrots are low-carb enough or not) and limiting beans, lentils etc as much as possible. I have read quite a bit about 're-starting' your system with regards to becoming less insulin resistant. I need to read more to explain it better, but I just feel if I can keep my diet as 'pure' as I can for now, it might help. It will definitely help with the weight loss, which will - in turn - help with the bgl's... I hope.

If I get really fed up, I'll try some of the other things - such as porridge for breakfast and check my levels.

There was some lovely looking bread at lunch today, an Ocado wholegrain baguette (never seen it before!?) - it looked like the kind of bread one should have if one wanted to see how ones levels coped with bread.... it was tempting, but I didn't have any <gold star> I will have a look on line and see if they have the nutritional info available.

Thank you for the brew and the hugs - they really do mean a lot to me x

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 08-Feb-13 22:40:39

Exit 43, soon 44. Although I've no idea which bastard swiped the years between 24 & 44! I think I blinked...

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 08-Feb-13 22:42:21

FryOneFatManic - Thanks for that smile <Where is your name from?>

BIWI Fri 08-Feb-13 22:46:55

I hope you're feeling a bit better now, MyHead. I can see that all of this is a bit overwhelming.

How are things for you on the exercising front, as it seems that this can be very helpful as well?

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 08-Feb-13 22:56:29

SCOTCH I have read your post again and it does make sense, I'm just not sure which I fall into I guess. I wonder if that is why they say diabetics should have carbs? Tell your DH thank you for his suggestions! smile <and comment re Metformin taken on board!>

Mirry - thank you again. It really does mean a lot that you all keep posting smile x As I said to MrsHP, I think I'm going to keep this low-carb thing going for now, it's certainly working for weight loss - which is a good thing for bsl's, so it can only be good... It is boring, but I need to seek out things that make it a bit nicer and cook more. There are lots of recipes on the bootcamp recipe thread. I'm just so bloody exhausted all the time that I just want quick, easy things - but hey ho, I'm going to have to woman-up and get on with it!! Must check out that cauliflower pizza!! I haven't had dinner tonight - I'm not sure if I'm not hungry or just not hungry enough to cook something and I'm certainly not hungry enough for more red cabbage grin

Is is bad to skip meals??

MNM - grin sounds good!! (Why just a small one? What would be bad about having a big one, or several?). I'm avoiding for weight reasons not bgl reasons... well I think so anyone, until someone tells me why I should be avoiding for bgl levels as well grin

BIWI Fri 08-Feb-13 22:58:00

Yes, MyHead - it's definitely bad to skip meals! Especially for you. You have to make sure that you are keeping your blood sugar levels stable, and if you're not eating regularly then this is more likely not to happen