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Continued support for SPHINCTER INJURIES, FISTULAE and other CHILDBIRTH INJURIES - the Ragged Bits Thread

(953 Posts)
Jacksmama Mon 22-Jun-09 20:12:52

Hi all,
old thread here.

Cyee started this thread in May 2008 after her op, and it's been a haven of support for so many of us who have injuries to our bits from childbirth. Especially with respect to sphincter injuries, fistulae and incontinence after childbirth, there seems to be such a lack of support for women, and the entire subject seems to be taboo. It's as if most MD's think that "a certain amount of damage is to be expected after birth and you just have to live with it". Well, that is simply not the case - and this attitude is unacceptable.

There are all kinds of Ragged Bits stories on this thread. Be aware that THERE IS NO "TMI" HERE grin - this is the one place where you can spill it all. If you read through the old thread, which is nearly full, you'll see that someone, somewhere, has probably experienced it - whatever it is! So don't be embarrassed or ashamed... we'll tell our poo stories if you'll tell yours.

And also - there are success stories here. Several of us who have been through the medical mill have been successfully "repaired" and are "fully functional", so to speak wink or even expecting again. In those cases, please join us for Pervwatch - the "after action" report for anyone who is once again venturing into marital relations! grin

Welcome everyone. We're sorry you had to find us, but we're glad you're here.

Jacksmama Mon 22-Jun-09 20:19:11

<breaks out champagne to toast new thread>

Bolly, Veuve Clicquot or Taittinger, anyone?

["nothing but the best for the Raggy Dolls" emoticon]

Cyee Mon 22-Jun-09 20:57:20

Awwwww Jacksmama! Fantastic first post And the second is pretty darned good as well

I'm raising my glass of chilled orange <pah> to celebrate this new thread.

Who'd have though we'd make it this far?!

Sawyer64 Mon 22-Jun-09 22:00:44

Cheers Jacksmama and Cyee et

DMCT Mon 22-Jun-09 23:15:07

I'm on the lemonade today, had a bit too much over the weekend, but good intro Jacksmama, cheers.

RuinedandUpset as Cyee said I had my baby in England and had my op there too, I have since moved back to Ireland. I will try and help you if I can, if it is the Republic you are in, I dont know much about the system there (even though I am from there),I live in the North now.

I will e-mail you and try and help all I can.

jmontan27 Tue 23-Jun-09 18:43:32

Great intro - mine's a pint of Guinness, as bizarrely it's the only alcohol that doesn't make me feel sick since having DS1!grin

It's also great to be able to click on the thread and for it to load immediately - stopped me shouting at my computer for the time being!

ThingOne Tue 23-Jun-09 23:52:37

I'm on holiday and should be in bed and not mumsnetting. But I'll raise you a holiday snifter, hic, to the new thread.

kentmumtj Wed 24-Jun-09 11:24:26

hi all
gosh ive been busy reading up on everyone

cheers all i just gotta remeber to post on this one not the old one grin


still a no goer im afraid it er wont fit in as such if you get my drift so ive been back to my doc who is reffering me back to my surgeon as she believes ive been sown too tight and sadly it means another op which i really really really really dont want.

but dont want to never be able to have sex again either so unless surgeon comes up with another suggestion guess thats where i will be heading

im wishing i never had op if im honest.

Cyee Wed 24-Jun-09 12:47:55

Oh Kentmumj - sorry to hear you might need another op. Hopefully it won't be as bad as previous ops. But completely appreciate another op is absolutely not what you'd want Take care.

kentmumtj Wed 24-Jun-09 14:33:31

thanks cyee it is so not what i want im guessing it will be less painful and hoepfully a quicker recovery time but am just having a bit of a down day as all of us do because im fed up with it juts feeling so uncomfortable down there.

I decided to go back to the gym today and found sitting on the bike or any of the equipment which meant i had to spread my legs and sit astride any seat just so uncomfortable.

I have been looking up dilators but again i just dont fancy it ......... any of it.

enough moaning i guess im lucky ot have a dh that has the patience of a saint.

it is a beautiful day today and im going to meet a friend for lunch which will be nice

Cyee Wed 24-Jun-09 19:36:30

Hope you had a nice lunch. Yes, fingers crossed the procedure to loosen you up won't be too bad.

I'd steer clear of the dilators for now. My physio wasn't very pro any of the electronic devices for stretching/widening and/or toning pelvic floors, especially if not used under professional supervision.

Take care of yourself and big squeeze to your DH for being fab.

DMCT Wed 24-Jun-09 21:42:40

God, I have been given dilators, gynae consultant said some I have vaginismus...great i know. Prefer not to think about it. And I dont fancy it much either and havent really used them. But it never entered my head that physically it might be too small...they said anatomically everything is perfect/near perfect.....

Kentmumtj, did they def say that was the reason? Did they ever suggest vaginismus? Im sure they know what they are doing though, and will only do an op if necessary. It's all a friggin pain in the a*se

Your DH who is prob like my DH neglected,(hope you dont mind me sayig the latter)and are both probably FAB as Cyee said, bring on SAINTHOOD.

kentmumtj Thu 25-Jun-09 10:02:01

well thats just what my GP said i guess i will have to wait til my surgeon has a good look and probably probe..........grrr i do hate all of this.

im confused as to exactly what it can be
before my op i had no problems associated with sex so guess all was well pre op.
since op weve only attempted actual penetration 3 times and each time i was very relaxed and everything was fine right up until that moment ........then it all ended.
My dh couldnt actually enter me it just wouldnt go in blush sorry for being quite graffic

the last time was the worst as we tried for a while and it just couldnt and i was very sore for about 4/5 days after. the place where it is so sore is at the back where it meets my perinium its like toughing an electric socket it send pain shooting through me.

My dh and i have both tried to examine the area lol and it looks ok bit red. to me it feels as though it is pulled together quite tightly and im still uncomfortable down there.
i did wonder if it was a nreve or something like that as it is sore to touch.

guess i will have to wait until i see my consultant.

personally i reckon they mucked up right at the end of my op when stitching up after they had to change surgeons as the one stitching me up put the needle through his finger shock then the other surgeon finished stitching me and i think they may have added an extra stitch or something

so you havent heard good things about the dilators then????

i really dont fancy them if im honest

DMCT Thu 25-Jun-09 11:22:44

Well my consultant seemed to think the wonderful box of dilators would sort the prob out in time...I'm just not v good at even attempting to use them and the largest size one - scares the living daylights out of me - even to look at. I have tried using the small one (twice)and hey presto it went in, round of applause, but i just dont know. It says not to attempt sex until after I have used all of the sizes - which makes me feel sick..cause that last one ...

If it was a stitch or two that needed fixing, it would be a v small op and then you'd be as happy as larry. So you know it might not be that bad. But what were those surgeons up to 'putting the needle through his finger', crazy.

We also have attempted a couple of times, usually after a few btls of vino - but no joy, and i usually end up v sore for the next few days. I also find it v sore at the back near the perinium but not in the way you described, just awfully sore.

I'm thinking of joing the NUNS

DMCT Thu 25-Jun-09 11:24:48

RuinedAndUpset I havent heard from you, hope you are alright.

RuinedandUpset Fri 26-Jun-09 00:28:07

Hi DMCT, I'm reading all these messages and well it seems that what has happened to me is different. Your stories are awful but I'm not handling this well at all, it feels like 20 years since I had my forceps delivery and my womanhood was stolen. I'm so nervous about telling my story and if telling it will ever benefit anyone else or could even harm me more emotionally. I have used and am using lots of horrible devices and they don't work. None of these things are small and are all out of a horror film as well as being a waste of time, money and so disappointing. I am very much changed down below sizewise and I don't know if there is any physical contact during sex or is it nerve sensation damage but a telling detail is that tampons (extra large)don't work anymore. What I'm told by the majority of medical professionals is that I'm not that big (I don't believe them)and surgery is risky and probably won't help. Today I had a scare, I realised that I hadn't urinated in over 12 hours and thought I might end up in A&E. Anyway life is miserable, even though my children are beautiful if I had known what was ahead of me I wouldn't have had them. You hear all these answers from well meaning people "some people don't get them easy" "sex is not important and sure if he is satisfied isn't that enough" "at least the children are fine and healthy" "didn't you know that you are never the same again after childbirth" and the most common "the good weather will cheer you up" What can you say to that?

kentmumtj Fri 26-Jun-09 09:34:17

ruinedandupset i agree that some people make very stupid and insensitive comments they are usually made by people who have not experienced any problems following childbirth, i think it is disgraceful that the medical profession is not helping is it possible for you to be refered to another consultant or something like that, maybe a second opinion.

i know how you feel when you talk about hindsight and what you may or may not have done differently i too am feeling i wouldnt have had the operation i have had as i feel my problems are worse since the op. Sex within a relationship is important but if for what ever reason it cant happen it is hard as it is part of being together. it doesnt mean everything but is still a massive loss to not be able to.

you sound very low have you been to your GP to discuss not only the physical problems but how your feeling emotionally and psychologically?

DMCT nuns i was acyually thinking of sending dh to become a monk........come to think of it he probably thinks he is already living in a monestory (is that how its spelt) hmm

hope alls well with everyone else..gosh the news this morning about Michael Jackson think thats left a lot of people shocked.

well i have a day off work today and plan on lying on the sofa watching a film of some sort before tidying up (boring) then going out to meet a friend later in the day. i do like Fridays smile

DMCT Fri 26-Jun-09 11:40:01

Ruinedandupset, You know I had a fair few of those comments thrown my way aswell. And it has taken me a long time to get to feeling a bit more positive about myself and my body. For me (this is not the same for everyone), I feel the op has given me a little more respect back. After the birth of my son, i spent 2 hours in theatre being repaired (obviously not a good repair). When I got home and weeeks later when i eventually had the courage to loo with a mirror, i was horrified. My midwife said it doesnt look the same as before but things change, and to explain to my husband etc the way things were down below (she was actually very nice, but thank God I wasn't convinced i had to live with the way I was). I was nothing but distraught. I had incontinence aswell so i felt so far from normal and 'a woman', only people who have been there can understand.

When I had my apps with the anal rectal consultant things started to move forward, however noone was concerned with my other parts. I eventually got referred to a gynae consulant (with alot of pushing from my husband) , who said physio would help(hilarious)and said it wasn't that bad. I got another referral, I couldnt live like that. The nxt consultant could see the prob, to put it politely she said it was asymmetrical, in other words, an oval with a triangle on the side. I never attempted sex in that state, as i was too upset at that time. But now after the op (both surgeons did it at same time) it's back to normal, except i haven't gotton round to trying it out properly yet, but mentally and emotionally i feel a good bit better.

I dont know if this ramble helps at all, Im sure something can be done though. But I know how you feel when you say if you'd knew you wouldnt have done it. Neither would I, I love my son dearly, but if I had of known i would not have had him. I also will not be having any more, I have been advisewd not tto. I am grateful gfor my lil beautiful son, but my body has endured enough, and it will eventually get back to normal, like you will too. take care.

DMCT Fri 26-Jun-09 11:42:14

Kentmumtj, enjoy your day off!!! I have a lil helper up out of bed trying to type a tthe same time must go. smile

Cyee Fri 26-Jun-09 13:14:48

RuinedandUpset - I agree with Kentmumtj and think you should speak to your doc, not just about the injury but about how you're feeling emotionally. In England there's a Birth Trauma Association with a helpline and other support and it does sound like something like this might really help you.

People do make totally unhelpful comments and there's generally (esp in parts of Ireland) a view that you get your chin up and be thankful for your baby. Even 'normal' births can cause trauma and depression never mind a situation where your very womanhood and physical function is so compromised. I know talking about it is hideous (I avoided my doc for a time) but maybe worth a try? Have you had counselling or anything like that? I know it can be amazing for trauma recovery in situations like this. I know it can feel like you might fall apart if you start talking about it... so it can be hard to see talking as a 'good thing'.

Sorry if this isn't the help you're looking for - please stay on this thread if it's helpful.

Kentmumtj - Enjoy your day off - I'm jealous!

I work in the media so have lots of knackered people wandering around who've been in since 1am working on the Michael Jackson story!


Have a good weekend everyone.

RuinedandUpset Fri 26-Jun-09 16:43:26

Hi DMCT, the first part of your story is very similar to mine so far. There is a possibility of bowel surgery but no one yet will go near the other bits. I am getting poorer all the time seeing countless medical professionals. Everyone offers anti-Ds though as if that will fix the damage. Outside looks bad enough,(they say well healed) I've watched the external stitches unravel leaving me even bigger and the bruising take over 9 months to fade. The CBT counselling is ongoing and I've contacted every organisation I can find. Hi Kentmumtj, I wonder what op you had done? Was it a prolapse repair as I am told that it has a 30% failure rate and the recovery is at least 3 months of doing absolutely nothing.

Hulla Fri 26-Jun-09 17:48:00

Hello everyone, just checking back into say hi. I haven't had time to read this thread yet. DD needs a bath and I am trying to cook dinner. I'll catch up over the weekend and post again.

No updates from me, still waiting for my colorectal referral to come through.

I am going to see friends and their 2 week old baby tomorrow. As we're going out for lunch and not dinner, I am having a glass of wine. Do you know how long its been since I have had alcohol in RL and not virtual champagne (still very grateful!).

Ok, I'm off. Hope you're all ok!!

DMCT Fri 26-Jun-09 22:14:37

I just read my last thread, and i feel guilty for saying i wouldnt have had my baby, but now that ihave him i love him to bits. If i'd stuck to my guns and had a c-section initially - which i thought i wanted, cause i was a bit worries, I might have been alright...

Cyee have a good weekend, Im on the black stuff, have a preggers friend here with me tonight - no horror stories to her though.grin

Sawyer64 Fri 26-Jun-09 22:23:45

Hi RuinedandUpset, I've been on this thread,but a little way back.I think Kentmumtj had the same Op as me IIRC. I had a Rectocele which is a weakness in the wall which allows the womb to lie backwards,which then makes doing a Poo difficult as theres no muscle strength to push. The opposite to this,and more usual is a Cystocele which is where the womb lays forward onto the bladderwall,thus causing an urgency with weeing,and sometimes no control on trying to hold it.

I think we have all been told the statistics of failure before our ops,but unless they were over 50% IMO,it was worth the gamble.Most surgery is successful.

The 3 months is an ideal,after a week you can potter about,doing small light jobs,with plenty of rest in between.I was governed by my own discomfort levels,if I ached,I rested.

I went back to work after 2 weeks,as I work part time,and yes this was a little early,but I took things really easy. Everyones Recovery time is different,I can now say,although its took me closer to 12 weeks,that my Op has been a success.Most of the people posting on here,have eventually found the strength to have the surgery offered,and have found their injuries/problems improved.
I hope that you get the treatment you need,and although its so obviously hell for you at the moment,that you will eventually reach a place where you are healed and happy.

kentmumtj Sat 27-Jun-09 00:24:03

ruinedandupset as sawyer said i had a rectocele although ive also been told i may need the cystocele as well but for some reason they onyl did one op which doesnt make sense to me as they had me up on the table.

I was off work for 6 weeks as i had repeated infections and this delayed the initial healing. I found the op to be horrible if im honest, for me it was very very painful for at least 2 weeks post op. dont think i could sit down til about week 5 and even then it was sitting down very gently just like after having a baby. In fact siting down now is still uncomfortable for me and the area is still tender and sore and as i previously mentioned this may be because they have stitched me too tight.

i think my op has been a success on some parts but seems to have caused me problems that i didnt have before.

i hope it time i will look back and be glad i went for it but i am def not there yet.

Another thing which does worry me is i have to go and have a colposcopy and biopsy on 10th July and im sooo dreading it. What worrys me is how on earth are they going to 'opne me up' with a speculum when i cant even .......well you know what i cant do blush

Sawyer64 Sat 27-Jun-09 12:55:09

kentmumtj I am a Practice Nurse,and when we do a Smear (a little similar to Colposcopy,but without the Culposcope like a microscope).......
We have the option to use a different size instrument to "open you up" its called a Cuscoes,and they make them in Small/Med and large.They also make an extra long one,and a Virgin one.

Obviously the Virgin one is about the width of a finger,so if you request this and explain about your op,I'm sure they will do their best to do the Colpocopy with the least amount of discomfort to you as they can.

Obviously its important for you to attend so don't let the fear put you off,I'm sure they'll take into account your problems.

RuinedandUpset Sun 28-Jun-09 09:25:59

Hi Kentmumtj, they have smaller than normal speculum etc that they can use and you probably will be well sedated as well so you will be ok. I think that cystocles can be tricky to fix, sometimes bladder incontinence can arise so they prefer to leave them alone for as long as possible. I hope its not true as I have a cystocle, rectocle and every pelvic organ is desending. The thought of surgery scares me but to be left like this is terrible. I spoke to one women who had both rectocle and cystocle as well as bowel prolapse fixed and she is back to normal. I hope it works out for you.

kentmumtj Sun 28-Jun-09 14:42:00

hi guys thanks for advice i did wonder whether they did different sizes.......ive had colposcopy's in the past and a biopsy before am dreading it but will go because i know hoe important it is just hope its not too painful i think i will ring them up next week and speak to someone so they are aware of everything before i come in

oh and i got my urgent refferal to see my consultant and guess when this 'urgent appointment' is 3rd Sep, guess if i do have to have another smaller op my dh nr i will be having any bedroom activites til xmas time sad so frustrating and annoying

im sure in time i will look back and be glad i had it all done just want to fast forward there.

hope everyones' having a nice weekend, ive got so much ironing to do and the weather is just too warm to do it mind you im not complaining about the weather just the ironing grin

Sawyer64 Sun 28-Jun-09 16:29:59

get yourself an extension lead and take your Ironing Board outside!!smile

Cyee Tue 30-Jun-09 08:50:11

What divine weather! But looking a bit more grim here today. Did you take your ironing outside Kentmumtj?!

Pants news about your appt, urgent indeed. I had similar experience and actually wept I was so upset it would take so long. I know what you mean about wanting to fast forward to a happy post-op state. I wonder (anti-male comment alert) if you'd/we'd have to wait as long if our penis was causing such problems? Somehow I doubt it.

I had no idea there was such a range of speculum(s?i?). You learn something new every day.

Hi RuinedandUpset - it's awful that it's costing you so much money to get sorted. I always forget the Irish system isn't free. Considering how many appointments most people on this thread had to go to in order to get sorted you must be out a fortune. Really feel for you. Where are you now in the treatment situation, are you waiting for another appointment or surgery?
On a more random note, how do you find the CBT? My dad is training as a counsellor and says is can be amazing and that everyone should have it. Have you found it helpful?

Take care everyone.

Hulla Tue 30-Jun-09 11:07:06

Morning all, I have finally caught up with this thread.RuinedandUpset, it sounds like you are having a really tough time. I hope the cbt is helping. I had some hypnosis based on cbt to overcome an extreme phobia of injections/having blood taken. It worked.

Has anyone tried a "pelvic floor toning system"? I am considering getting one as I can get back to my womens health physio and I assume it will be more effective than doing the exercises myself.

mikeyem Tue 30-Jun-09 11:21:51

hi there everyone

i've just about read most of this thread now and thank you for all your useful info and sharing experiences.

my story in brief....had 2nd baby 5 months ago...forceps and therefore needed episiostomy. stitched just in delivery and doc said 2nd degree. sent home next day...although in a lot of pain. stitches all went next day athome. not re-stitched when reviewed at hospital. midwife sent me back in. had a 6 week check at hospital and referred to colo rectal team due to urgency and mega wind probs!!!

have had tests and damage to sphincter. so actually was 3rd degree tear?!
have a date for surgery...27th july.

this is turning out to be not that brief!!!!

was just wondering if cyee (and anyone else) would like to just share again with me their experience of recovery following surgery. i too am under mr kiff(same as cyee). i have a big family wedding 12 days after surgery and am wondering how realistic it is to say i'll be there even if do have lots of support with the kids. after delivery i didn't drive for 2 weeks cause basically couldn't sit down!
my surgery far as i understand..... involves anterior overlap repair and basically giving me a perineum back. said id be in hospital 4/5 days

many thanks for reading

DUSTIN Tue 30-Jun-09 11:52:36

Hello everyone, I had a baby 8 weeks ago. I had to have a forceps delivery due to baby being in wrong position. Unfortunately surgeon turned baby transverse and I tore badly (4th degree tear). This affected my bladder and bowel. Had to have an indwelling urinary catheter for 3 weeks. I am in the early stages of healing but I am absolutely terrified of what the future holds especially after reading some of the stories on here. I have a post- natal consultant appt in a week. Are there any pointers anyone can give me on what questions I should be asking?

Hulla Tue 30-Jun-09 12:14:27

HI mikeyem & DUSTIN, it sounds like you have both had a terrible time. I had a third degree tear following forceps delivery (dd was posterior). I completely understand not being able to sit down for weeks (not to mention the urgency & wind probs!).

mikeyem someone else will come along and tell you about recovery times. I am waiting for my op...

DUSTIN my tear was a severe 3rd degree (5 months ago) and it took me a few months to feel like I had healed. I have ongoing problems but pain isn't one of them.

Do you have any problems now? I think they're likely to ask you about urgency/continence of faeces/flatus/urine. If you have any of these issues then let them know. If it is like my appointment they will probably also insert a finger to check the tone in your rectum. If it is poor you may be referred for further tests.

I didn't ask many questions at my first appointment but did at my follow up when it was clear that I wasn't just going to heal. I asked about long term probles, future deliveries (I think C-section is often recommended by colorectal surgeons but not necessarily by obstetricians/midwives following this kind of injury).

FWIW a colleague had a 4th degree tear and absolutely no long term problems so it is possible.

Sending you both <<<hugs>>> because I know how awful it is to feel like you do. x

Jacksmama Tue 30-Jun-09 14:26:31

Hi everyone and newbies - just read your posts, will pop back later as I must get ready for work but (((((((((((HUS))))))))) to mikeyem and dustin - really feel for you!!!!

Jacksmama Tue 30-Jun-09 14:27:31

Erm, yes, that was supposed to be (((((((huGs))))) - not sure how effectove they'd be with the G left out...

Cyee Tue 30-Jun-09 20:40:54

Hey everyone,

Welcome Dustin and Mikeyem! Sorry to hear about your experiences. It just sucks doesn't it?

I don't have long right now as I'm about to eat my own arm off I'm so hungry but wanted to come back to you on the recovery point Mikeyem. Firstly, I hope Kiff does as great a job for you as he did for me. I totally love the man. Which is saying something - though I guess he's seen parts of my my DH hasn't!

In terms of recovery, I was up and down. So, for example, I went to a job interview about 10 days after my op (!) but wasn't back at work for 4 weeks (and that really was when I was consistently better rather than up and down days). So I was fine to drive for an hour that day (each way) and sit for an hour in interview. I did take my full-on painkillers that day as well whereas I just took the paracetamol and brufen most of the rest of the time.

The key thing that I think related to my good days and bad days was keeping my stools under control. I know it seems obvious but I just didn't religiously take my lactulose and drink water, eat fibre and it was the heaviness of constipation that really did me in. I was practically crying - not really at a sharp pain but at the general discomfort and ache. I was constantly on the loo willing myself to go. Now... I should say that I've only been through this op once so maybe that's just the way it is. So in terms of the wedding I'd play it by ear. If you're feeling ok, have good drugs, support with the children and are 'going' regularly then it may well be possible, at least for part of the day.

How did you find Kiff? Was he helpful?

Right, I will be back soonish. But must eat

mikeyem Wed 01-Jul-09 09:29:18

thanks for reply cyee

yeh i've found kiff brilliant and so lovely. in fact now i have a date i feel i have so many more questions. might try and see him again

did you just eat normally after op?

the wedding is actually a 4 hour drive away and would be staying with relatives poss one night and night of the wedding in a hotel. my little ones are 3 years and 5 months. i'm thinking about the drive etc as well.

so don't want my stitches to burst!

and i'm such a control freak its going to be hard to rest at home. i'm starting the lists of instructions and children!!!!!!!!

DUSTIN Wed 01-Jul-09 10:20:27

Thanks for the welcome everyone.

Hula Thanks for the info. I am still having pain. I think this is mainly the scar as some of my wound broke down and got infected. I had to let it heal by secondary intention so only really completely heal about 3 weeks ago. Bladder and bowels still feels strange. Nothing feels like it used to. I feel like I have stepped into some-one elses body. I wish I had had a c-section this time. My first baby was born by emergency c-section and everyone kept telling me it would be better to have a natural delivery this time as recovery would be so much quicker- who were they kidding!!!! Now I just keep crying and feel abnormal. I am not going out much as I can't be too far from a toilet. I hope this will improve.

Sorry for everyone else having a bad time as well.

mumsiebumsie Wed 01-Jul-09 12:11:49

Hello all,

I'm new to this thread and have nothing to add really (although I've been reading and finding your experiences and attitudes truly incredible).

Anyway - reason I'm posting is that "Embarassing Illnesses" is on a 8pm tonight I believe and the blurb in my magazine says that one of the cases is of a woman who has been left with injuries post childbirth. It may be totally unrelated to what you're going through but thought it was worth a watch just in case it proves to be relevant.

Sorry for butting in!

mumsiebumsie Wed 01-Jul-09 12:34:48

On Channel 4.

Cyee Wed 01-Jul-09 13:31:53

Hi everyone,

Mikeym - glad you also share the Kiff love He is so so lovely. My SIL (a hosp doc) couldn't get over how non-consultanty he was. I think you're just better to wait and see about the wedding. You may well feel fine. I wouldn't worry too much about the stitches - bearing in mind the pressure that's put on them they tend to sew you up nice and securely. I certainly never had the feeling they were about to split. However I wasn't contemplating throwing some shapes on the wedding dancefloor! I did eat normally after the op - quickly realised I needed to keep my fibre levels up.

Dustin - really feel for you in terms of your body not feeling like your own. It was almost like a bit of body dysmorphia (sp?) for me. I barely recognised the body I was in and just didn't want to accept that it was mine.

I also didn't respond about your question about questions to ask (if you know what I mean!). I'd ask about who they're considering referring you to (gynae or colorectal) and ask whether the person has expertise in these sorts of injuries. Who will you be meeting? I guess this person might be quite general and not know too much? If so, don't be put off by their total ignorance about stuff like this. As you may have seen from this thread, medical people can be a bit clueless about injuries like this and actually make things worse or more stressful.

Also - please don't be put off by the more horrific anecdotes on this site. Yes sometimes there have been set backs but a lot of people on here have had successful repairs - more that have than haven't? And my consultant was confident that I was not going to have any other related issues in the future as long as I kept my pelvic floor in shape (clench).

Mumsiebumsie - thanks for popping in, and thanks for the tip off. I will be tuning in!

Take care all

ThingOne Wed 01-Jul-09 20:36:25

Hi everyone. I see my surgeon in a fortnight. Please keep your finger crossed that he can actually help me, and that he can do it in early October so a. my mum can come and help and b. swine flu and other winter illnesses haven't taken over the hospital!

Dustin, I'm having terrible problems with my body image. It's just so much part of being a woman. I feel old and broken and so completely unsexy it's not true. I asked my GP for some more counselling recently, as I am just not coping with all my shit and the referral was very quick indeed. It's worth asking, so you can have someone to talk these issues through with. I mean, you can hardly dump on your husband how shit you feel sexually, and that you don't feel sexy, and you can't remember what a shag is when the poor man has the patience of a saint. Bleurgh. Mind you, I've found another ill friend who has no sex either so we occasionally whinge to each other.

Jacksmama Thu 02-Jul-09 15:59:41

How's everyone today?
ThingOne, will definitely keep the fingers crossed for you!!

Hi Guys

I was just looking through your posts as I had a TOT tape put in, my tear restitched and a few other bits and bobs down there and I have to say that it took about 8 weeks of recovery not 3 months and it wasn't as bad as having your tonsils out.

I had a fab surgeon at Blackheath Hospital but he also works out of Woolwich on the NHS and he was really FAB - listened to me, came and saw me again and again when I was worrying and has seen a couple of my friends for free when I have explained to him what is wrong with them.

If any body wants his no - even if it is just for a consultation so you have another point of view please CAT me - my op was 3.5 years after having DS though - but I feel like a new woman now.

Jacksmama Thu 02-Jul-09 16:04:50

Hi all - a post on our old thread from a new member of the Raggy Dolls sad. I've directed her here.

hi, not read all the thread but would like some support, i gave birth 7 wks ago it took 2 hours, was encouraged 2 push due 2 baby in distress resulting in a 3rd degree tear, was taken 2 theatre for2.5hrs, suprisingly i had no feeling but was urine and faeces incontinent, a week later my husband saw my "wound" and noticed it had burst open, the mw sent me straight back 2 hospital, they decided 2 let the wound heal naturally due 2 the depth of it,and gave me an appointment for 3 months time. The physio says i have no pelvic floor muscle control and can not start helping 2 correct this till my wound is either stitched up or healed. i also have an appointment with a colcrectal specialist coming soon i still have no feeling in this area, even when they are inserting things in my anus,i dont know what 2 expect or what questions would be good 2 ask please help x

kentmumtj Thu 02-Jul-09 19:27:22

hi all

having been reading up on everyone who is new to this post and my thoughts are with all of you

childbirth can do the most awful things to our bodies cant it

and i didnt do my ironing in the garden i did it beside the door with a large fan on me

anyways im celebrating my 10th wedding anni tomorrow, apart from a medal im looking forward to my day being just me ive arranged for my children to be collected from school and looked after etc an dh are off to Brighton for the day/ kids, relaxing and strolling, nice meal and alcohol.......sounds good

all have a drink on me grin

oh everyone at my work suggested i buy some sexy undies for a night of passion if only they knew wink

Gillyan Sun 05-Jul-09 01:21:08


Thanks for all the advice I got on this thread,

DD2 was born by elective c/section on 23/06/09 8lbs Summer Jennifer

I ended up in and out of hospital from 34 wks with premature labour that was stopped, kept having to go back in with contractions. Then at 36 wks baby was breech but kept turning every other day as I had excess fluid.

finally decided I wanted the lective section and every time they thought I was inestablished labour - dependning on what doc was on call - they tried to talk me out of the section.

Ended up back in on the 23rd, having biggest contractions yet - cervix wasn't dilating and although it was 6 days to go before my planned c/s I saw the head consultant man who happened to be on call and he was mazing and said if I wanted hee would do the section that day! I had a show in the morning and then lost more blood so I think I would of been established before long. He explained the risk to the babies lungs as I was 37 + 5 but he said it was just a small risk.

We took an hr to think and decided to go for it - I was in theatre within 30 mins and she was born within 10 mins from then, she came out screaming with an apgar of 9 and 9 so no worried about the lungs and 8lbs at 37 + 5!!

out of hospital in 2 days and am making a good recovery

I would chose section over possible 3rd degree tear anyday. The recovery is a million times better than from the tear and the whole experience was amazing and enjoyable.

Cyee Sun 05-Jul-09 14:26:50

Gillyan - CONGRATULATIONS!!!! That is such fantastic news. What a beautiful name for your baby girl. I am smiling from ear to ear for you

I'm so pleased (and comforted!) that you sound so positive about the c-section option - as that's what I'm going to have. Brilliant that you feel the recovery is going so well.

Hope Summer Jennifer is bringing you lots of happiness (and not too much sleep deprivation!)

Cyee Mon 06-Jul-09 21:20:22

How rude of me... HAPPY ANNIVERSARY KENTMUMTJ!! I hope you had a lovely time.

kentmumtj Tue 07-Jul-09 06:50:30

gillyan ...........congratulations and i agree a beautiful name


i had a lovely day/evening at Brighton. DH has spoiled me completly, perfume, chocolates, neclace bracelet and earing set (chunky jewellrey incase you all thought it was diamonds lol), underwear and a spa weekend away. i got him some animal swim shorts yikes.... i felt bad with all my lovely gifts so have had to run out and order this nice george jenson necklace he wanted.

Ok down to business i have bought or rather got my dh to buy a very slim <<ahem, cough>> lady toy.........and i have managed to use it without any pain, slight discomfort but no pain which has pleased me. I have suggested to dh that he get a reduction but he didnt fancy that idea lol..........i wonder why

well thats my pervy update im afraid i didnt even attempt going near my dh as the last 3 attempts ended in tears.

Sawyer64 Tue 07-Jul-09 14:44:53

That sounds alot more positive kentmumtj sounds like you had a lovely weekend.

Think back to your 1st time,things were uncomfortable then,or usually,not for everyone.But with "practice" things got easier.With careful slow dilation,that should happen again.

With hormonal influences and contractions etc. your vagina would dilate again to allow the passage of a baby. So I guess its small steps for you sad but maybe its possible without

kentmumtj Tue 07-Jul-09 19:20:09

thats what im hoping anyway i would much rather avoid any more surgery if its possible
so fingers crossed for me ...... hmm maybe its time for the carrots lol

Laine4kids Wed 08-Jul-09 12:13:59

Hello all
I don't know where to start as this could end up a silly long post.I have a rectocele and cycstocele and 2 bulges .Have problems empyying my bowels.
Is it worth having the op sooner rather than later?i'm 36 my youngset is 2.
thanks for your honest posts,I no longer feel a freak.

Cyee Wed 08-Jul-09 13:38:09

Hey Laine4Kids,
Welcome to the thread and you are by no means a freak Feel free to post as long (not silly) posts as you like. That's the point.
In terms of your question, are you planning to have any more children? My consultant gave me the option of waiting until finished having a family, as once repair was done I'd have to have c-sections. I chose to go ahead and deal with the c-sections because I didn't want to live with my symptoms.
Otherwise I guess it's up to you - I'd imagine recovery is easier the younger/fitter you are. What are your thoughts at the moment?

kentmumtj Wed 08-Jul-09 14:23:19

i was advised to not leave my op any longer as the haling process acn be longer the older you get im 38 but had already finished having my children. i was offered the op when i was 23 but decided against it as i hadnt finished having my children and my symptoms werent too bad.

I guess its down to the individual

Laine4kids Wed 08-Jul-09 16:17:25

I have had problems since ds1 who was10lb ,forceps delivery,masive PPH,blood transfusion,and loads of stitches inside and out,after dd1 9lb8oz had major probs with emptying bowels and mild stress incontinance,successfully treated by physio.
dd2 was born by c section but a small bulge apeared after (rectocele).ds2 was also c section but carrying him,another10lb, has now left me withanother bulge(cysctocele)and return of previous problems.
seeing gyne consultant at end of month,GP says only option surgery and this year.dont want any more dc,
what do you think?
thanks for replys,hope kentmum continues to improve,fingers crossed for you.

Sawyer64 Wed 08-Jul-09 23:17:20

Always think its strange to give an "option" of waiting until all DC's are done with,as not many of us would want another "natural" Delivery with the injuries we have unrepaired,so IMO I'd go for the Repair asap,and have C Section if you still want more DC's.

I was given the option to wait until I was older for my repair op (Rectocele), but based on the fact things would get worse,I didn't see the point in waiting.I wanted to be better now,and get on with my life. No dilemma for

kentmumtj Thu 09-Jul-09 23:03:30

im so scared about my colposcopy in the morning as ive been told this time they will be doing the biopsy thing again sad it hurts sad

anyways i spoke to a nurse who has told me it may not be possible for me to have this done now due to the fact i havent been able to have sexual intercourse

Cyee Fri 10-Jul-09 08:17:39

Oh Kentmumtj Hugs to you this morning. Hope things aren't as bad as you expect

ThingOne Fri 10-Jul-09 11:42:21

How did it go, kentmumtj?

kentmumtj Fri 10-Jul-09 13:10:06

well they couldnt do it i came on my period lol so all that fretting for nothing im booked in for 29th July now plus they have told me that they doubt they will do any treatment or biopsy as its a week before i go on holiday otherwise i will not be able to go swimming am feeling quite relaxed now

ThingOne Fri 10-Jul-09 16:31:26

Is that a "phew, escaped" relaxation smile?

kentmumtj Sat 11-Jul-09 09:37:30

yes grin

kentmumtj Sat 11-Jul-09 09:38:42

lol in fact ive never been so glad to come on my period silly i know but i was just dreading it think the bit that im dreading is the inserting of an object arrggghhhh shock

SJLTM Tue 14-Jul-09 10:45:54

Hi all......thanks so much for all your honest chat. I am waiting for a date for my op....after 5 babies all weighing between 10 and 11 lbs I am in desperate need of a rectocele repair, possible cysctocele and a messy tear repair sorted out!!

Just read kentmumtj post regarding her period and wondered....if my period arrives at the same time as my op is due, will they still go ahead ?

I ask as when I saw one Dr at the hospital I was at the tail end of a period, and when she examined me she looked a bit angry

Cyee Tue 14-Jul-09 16:35:11

Welcome to the thread... 5 babies? Check you!
I could be making this up, but I think I asked the period question when I got my op date - if I should check when my period was due etc. and I'm pretty sure they said it didn't matter. I think it makes sense because once the op starts there's blood anyway. I think that's different to an examination where they need to be able to see what they're doing. Hope this helps!
Have you had these problems since birth one, or have they built up over time?
Hope you get your date soon and hang around and tell us how everything goes

kentmumtj Tue 14-Jul-09 20:07:48

i would have thought they would although my friend went to have an exploratory op and was sent home as she had started her period so i guess you will just have to ask sorry i cant help any more
good luck with your op

SJLTM Tue 14-Jul-09 20:58:32

Hi cyee and kentmumtj.
When I think back, having a poo and wind shock have been going on for some time.
I was offered a TVT tape after my third, (sorry forgot to mention that I was also having this done at the same time) but as my family wasn't complete, I waited till now (and the help of always knowing where the toilet was and pant liners)
As far as the bum bit.... it took my DD3 saying "mummy , when you do a poo, why do you hold your foo foo " ? anyone with a rectocele will know exactly what i'm doing !!
That made me pluck up the courage to chat to the GP and fast forward to now....waiting for the date !!

Sawyer64 Wed 15-Jul-09 00:17:56

Hi SJLTM I had a Rectocele repaired in February.
I worried over the period bit,especially as my leaflet info said they may postpone if you are having a period.

However,the nurse said it didn't matter for this op,just as Cyee said,as soon as they start theres blood,so it doesn't make much odds,but for certain Ops it does,as it would obscure the view.But not for this,so no worries.

My Period got delayed,and if it then showed up when i was bleeding it was hard to tell!,I think it did during this time as I had a tummyache.hmm

Good luck with your

SJLTM Wed 15-Jul-09 11:21:30

Thanks for that Sawyer....I will check in as soon as I have any news.

Triggles Thu 16-Jul-09 09:04:55

Newbie here. I just have kind of a silly question. I've got the prolapsed bladder issue and have had since birth of DS2 almost 3 yrs ago. It has gotten a bit worse since I was diagnosed with diverticular disease last summer. Now I am 37wks pregnant, and looking at being induced (due to GD) soon. I am rather nervous that this birth will further complicate the prolapsed bladder, or worse, that I may end up with rectal problems - which is something I can ill afford with diverticular disease already in play.

I've asked the midwife, the GP, and the consultant if vaginal delivery will make the prolapse worse, and they've all said no, but I find it still preying on my mind. I'm 43, and not planning on any more babies. Anyone have any input on how a subsequent vaginal birth affected an already prolapsed bladder? I don't even want to the get into the stitching discussion, as I still feel slightly "off" from last childbirth on that front.

Hulla Thu 16-Jul-09 13:37:44

Hi Triggles, I'm afraid I don't know the answer (my gut feeling would be that it would have an impact but thats hardly scientific is it?). I hope someone comes along with a bit more info for you.

Sorry I haven't been around, we've been out and about visiting family for a couple of weeks.

I have got my appointment with the colorectal consultant for the 11th August so I will let you know what he says. I have decided to get my notes from the hospital - does anyone know how you do this?

I have a few more questions to ask this time. For example, I obviously have my perineal tear and the scarring from that but I also have a scar which extends sideways from my fanjo to my thigh. The way it has been stitched has caused the skin to concertina a bit. No one has ever mentioned this.

ThingOne Thu 16-Jul-09 17:00:42

Hi Triggles. Sorry don't know the answer to your question. Can you ask the obstetric physios?

Good luck with your appointment in August, Hulla.

I had my appointment with the plastic surgeon this morning. He says I have a large cavity and that they should be able to fill it with muscles. They are going to take the grassius muscle from my leg. They may need one or both. I'll be in hospital 1-2 weeks. He advised help for three months after the operation. Great, just what I needed, another whacking nanny bill hmm. I have to continue my diet but gradual lose is OK, and I'm not to diet for the month beforehand as I must be super healthy and ready to heal.

But it means they think they can repair it. Yippee dee doodah.

No dates confirmed yet, but they are trying to get a place on the list on either 11 or 25 September.

kentmumtj Fri 17-Jul-09 07:23:03

thingone that is fantastic news, bet your so pleased, i wish you all the luck with it and the time will be here before you know it.

does sound painful though but then again im such a wimp when it comes to pain

i to am making slow progress i can now actually wipe myself after going to a wee rather than dabbing because i was still so tender so to me thats another step forward to getting back to normal

ChristieF Fri 17-Jul-09 12:48:18

I think you have to look at it in another way. You have a wonderful child. Do you think most women suffer body damage after childbirth? I'm 48 and had two large babies (9lbs 9oz and 10lbs), both of them two weeks overdue. They are both healthy teenagers now. My labours were long - 36 hours and 11 hours. I think carrying all the weight and the birth themselves caused my problems. Piles of course. Prolapse.One consultant said it's because tendons and muscles are torn and pulled out of shape. Apparently it's very common. Also anaemia which began in first pregnancy and has never gone. Hair loss after birth which never recovered. Also very heavy periods and flooding. Bad back. Women have to put up with so much.

ThingOne Fri 17-Jul-09 14:28:16

Which comment are you replying to Christie?

Jacksmama Fri 17-Jul-09 16:25:58

Hi Triggles,
I'd suggest you ask to speak with an OB consultant or a pelvic floor physio about this - but, as ThingOne said, my gut feeling is, a subsequent vaginal birth would heavily impact your prolapse. I don't suppose you've considered/ asked about an elective C-section? I hope that's not an offensive suggestion...

ChristieF, I wonder if perhaps you've accidentally wandered onto the wrong thread? Because if not - all of us on this thread have suffered much, much more birth damage than the average woman. And while none of us would deny that having our wonderful children is a blessing, and that women's bodies do usually go through the mill a bit with birth, what we on this thread have suffered goes far beyond that. So telling is that "we have to look at it another way" is really less than helpful. Sorry to be a bit harsh, but this is the first 100 posts on the second Ragged Bits thread, and the posts on this thread are actually rather tame compared to the first thread. So not in any way truly indicative of what we've been through.

ThingOne Sat 18-Jul-09 13:52:31

That was my concern too, Christie. I hope I'm wrong, but your post read to me as "be grateful for the pleasure of children and accept the damage as part of a woman's lot".

The people who post on this thread are women who have had far more severe damage, for example torn anal sphincters meaning they are incontinent. Some have had to have temporary or permanent colostomies while the repairs to their anus and rectum heal. Other have had a ano-vaginal fistula, a hole which sometimes mean you poo out of your vagina, or leak constantly.

These are not the normal, everyday "sore bits" after having babies. These are serious medical issues which have enormous physical and psychological effects on the women who end up with them.

The posters on this thread find that it's often difficult to get the right help for these problems, or too embarrassing and upsetting to keep on asking when ignored. Some have suffered with the problems for years.

My own problems are not related to childbirth but to complications following cancer surgery but I'm allowed to play here as not many other people know much about vaginal reconstruction.

Hulla Sat 18-Jul-09 17:03:21

ThingOne what great news that they can fix it! I hope they get you a space on the list soon.

Christie HCPs used to say that to me after dd was born "It's all worth it to have your dd" and I hated it. It felt like a horrid trade off. I had her but I was so ill I couldn't look after her, I cried every day for 3 months, couldn't walk unaided for weeks, breastfeeding was a nightmare because I couldn't sit comfortbly. I think it affected how I bonded with my dd. I remember crying to mum saying "I don't want her" and mum saying "You do you're just not well". I will always feel guilty about that.

There is little comfort in that comment I'm afraid but I appreciate that you were probably trying to make us look on the brightside! smile

nappyaddict Sat 18-Jul-09 22:07:24

Just wondered if anyone had heard from jmontan27 as I wanted to get in touch with them.

kentmumtj Sun 19-Jul-09 10:57:31

oh my ......... i would have loved to have only had stitches after having 4 babies then i wouldnt have had to have this operation that has left me well with no sex life, soreness a lot of the time, etc although i am now able to pass a motion without help

not to mention that i still have to go back as i may have been sewn up to narrow others on here still requiring operations for other problems asscociated with giving birth and im incl thingone who still has operations to look forwad to.

It does make me a little cross as i am so thankful to ahve 4 lovely wonderful chidlren who mean everything to me and are very important people in my life but given the option that the hospital told me that if they knew one of my babies was going to be so big they would have offered me a c-sect maybe i would have taken it ......the point is i would have been given a choice........and yes having babies does take its toll on women we all know that but as human beings it can and does affect us psychologically as well as physically especially if we are not able to live the life that most women live following childbirth

i havent looked at statistics but im guessing we are not a high percentage

hmmmm hmm will look into this i think as i could be wrong

georgiegirl2 Sun 19-Jul-09 14:52:30

I agree with the comments above. And I am not, and don't want to sound, anti-men, but I can't help feeling that if a large proportion of men found that their penises were damaged and no longer functioned as before as a consequence of becoming fathers this wouldn't be considered acceptable, or something to quietly put up with.

It bugs me that there seems to be an attitude that it's perfectly OK to never be the same again after having a baby.

We all know that having a baby takes some toll physically on every mother. In my own case, I had four and a half stone to lose after my second child's birth, I had a root canal treatment because of a rotting tooth which couldn't be treated during pregnancy, moderate stretch marks and a lot of dark pigmentation on my face. I could live with all this.

What is harder to live with is struggling with basic bodily functions because of childbirth damage, and losing all sexual confidence as a consequence as well. I adore my second dd, but her birth left me with hardly any perineum remaining, a daily struggle to open my bowels and no interest in sex (which has had a very negative effect on my marriage). I've just had surgery to sort this out. I know that others have had much worse experiences than I have. Being grateful for one's dcs and resenting the damage their births have caused are not incompatible. I have never resented or blamed my (10.5lb) dd for what happened (or even really regretted not having the c-section my consultant recommended), or felt any less grateful for her but I have struggled to come to terms with the body I was left with.

Women who are left badly damaged by childbirth deserve support,help and solutions, not to have to fight for this every step of the way. According to my surgeon more women are seeking repairs of childbirth damage these days and I think that's great. Good luck to everyone on here with post-childbirth problems in being listened to and helped to resolve them. smile

Jacksmama Mon 20-Jul-09 16:06:56

I think a ((((((HUG))))) is called for, for all of us.
I'm on holidays and only have half a second to pop in but wanted to see if ChristieF responded at all - am thinking it was a case of "oops, wrong thread".

Hulla Mon 20-Jul-09 18:09:32

Have a lovely holiday Jacksmama smile

DUSTIN Wed 22-Jul-09 10:33:15

Hello everyone, I had my appt with the gynae consultant. I explained that I was still very sore after the 4th degree tear. He said I may be sore for months yet due to nerve damage (only been 11 weeks since birth of DD). He examined me- very painful and is referring me to the physio. Hopefully this will help. He asked me about my sex life- non existent!!! He said I just need to have confidence. Easy for him to say!! I wonder if he would feel the same if I kicked him repeatedly in the knackers and then said to him to go and have sex!!!!

Hope everyone else is as well as can be x

Hulla Wed 22-Jul-09 15:44:18

grin @ DUSTIN. Have confidence? You know your own bits best. DH and I have still only managed to do it half of a time and that was at3 or 4 months (dd is now 6 months). It's something I feel awful about but tbh it never even crosses my mind these days. I do worry about the impact on my marriage.

Good news about the physio though, I believe that can have very good results (I didn't attend all of the appointments I should have - no one to look after dd). Let us know how you get on.

No news from me on the tear/muscle damage etc but on a sunnier note - DD is 6 months so it's baby-led weaning and attempts to crawl over here. Lots of mess and tears fun!!

Hope everyone else is ok.

ThingOne Wed 22-Jul-09 16:12:14

Hi Dustin. I hope the physio goes well. You must have been so tempted to kick the consultant.

On the odd post from cf at the top of this page, I've searched on her nickname and it seems she's fairly new to mumsnet, so I suspect she didn't really realise what we were talking about on this thread. Doesn't look as if it was the wrong thread. I just presume it's a misunderstanding.

Cyee Thu 23-Jul-09 16:07:11

Popping in to bestow peace, love and hugs to one and all!
My lovely FIL is seriously ill now, hence my disappearance.
I think people like us make up less than 1% of childbearing women, so I think that unfortunately many women as well as men don't really 'get' what happened and perhaps equate it to other more standard birth wear and tear. To be honest I know I personally don't help the situ by being compelled to be 'hey ho - onwards and upwards' when talking about/alluding to my own experience. So I'm not exactly helping to educate the world
Take care all!

ThingOne Thu 23-Jul-09 16:22:38

Sorry to hear that Cyee. Have some unmumsnetty hugs.

Cyee Thu 23-Jul-09 16:25:41

Thanks Thingone

Jacksmama Fri 24-Jul-09 03:53:54

More hugs from me for you and FIL.

Hulla Fri 24-Jul-09 18:47:26

Oh Cyee, thats awful. <<hugs>> from me too

kentmumtj Wed 29-Jul-09 18:30:35

Hi guys

I havent had a chance yet to read lastest posts but will do. Just thought i would update you as i went for my colposcopy today. well before inserting the thing they had to check they had the correct size. Ive never known which size ive had in the past and dont think many other women do either??? or do they???

Anyways she was very very careful and gentle as i had explained that since my op no intercouse has been possible. It was more uncomforatbel than usual but we got there very slowly. Once inserted it was ok ish i guess. The person doing it felt the problem was definatly with the opening as oppossed to internally which makes me feel so much better.

anyways i have to go back as they keep seeing this worrying area but were reluctant to do the biopsy as i am off on my hols next week. The area has grown and was very white when the iodine was used. Well i guess they know what they are talking about. She did another smear on me and i will await them results.

so im relived that they were able to insert something into my neter regions lol. They have also given me replens as they say ky is rubbish .

Hope every one else is ok.

RuinedandUpset Thu 30-Jul-09 16:32:02

To Cyee, I'm so sorry that everyone is having such a difficult time on this thread. Normal life throws enough at you without having to deal with all this as well.

To Kentmum, I've been offered a tightening of the entrance to the vagina by a couple of doctors, it seems that it is the easiest part to repair and recover from. I get the impression that its no big deal unlike the rectocle repair I want. Hopefully the rest of it will work out too, the waiting must be hard to bare but just hang in there.

Did anyone watch Channel 4's embarrassing bodies programme about the follow up interview with a woman after a repair? Its annoying but they have blocked the link to Ireland. I'm sure they can't go in depth about the result but hopefully it all went really well for her and its a happy ever after story of a successful op.

jmontan27 Fri 31-Jul-09 21:14:40

nappyaddict, I am still around if you want to get in touch.

Just recovering from suspected swine flu, but can't be sure what it was. Kids have had one bug after another for the last few weeks so have not had much chance to catch up on the thread.

kentmum sorry to read about your ongoing problems, but glad at least the person doing the colposcopy was gentle. You really deserve a break as does everyone on this thread. I really wish there was a dedicated service for those of us damaged by childbirth, not just run of the mill gynaes, but people who really specialised and had sympathies with our particular circumstances.

I know it is burying my head in the sand but I have still done nothing about my fistula medically. I am so loathe to as all the other vaginal pain, urinary symptoms and anal fissure seem to have healed themselves and I can forget the fistula is there apart from when air comes out of it sometimes. Even when I had diarrhoea with this swine flu thing, nothing leaked out of the fistula this time. I know it's still there though but I so don't want to go through anyone cutting me in that area again.

Thinking of you and your DH at this time Cyee

Chaosx3 Sat 01-Aug-09 16:54:08


Replying to Triggles from a few days ago - you may have had your baby by now. I had a uterine and bladder prolapse after the birth of my second child (it never felt "right" down there after his birth and the symptoms appeared a couple of years later). I then became pregnant and like yourself just couldn't get a definitive answer from anyone regarding natural birth vs. c-section. In the end I was induced at 42 weeks and delivered no problems. However a week later on the loo I felt a snap and my cervix was literally poking out. Very scary time, especially with such a little baby and two other children. Was referred for specialist physio straight away and two years later am managing OK via continued pelvic floor exercises.

But to answer your question - I think there can be no way that natural birth cannot make a prolapse worse and with hindsight I would have had a c-section. I am definitely in a worse position than before, although I know pregnancy in itself can make a prolapse worse. Will be really interested to hear how you've got on!

kentmumtj Sun 02-Aug-09 10:12:18

cyee my thougths are with you and you family right now

i am so gutted and upset i discovered yesterday that my rectocele is back, its can be felt and seen as clear as the day. im gobsmacked and disappointed. I feel i went through all of this for what......?
For nothing

i cant belive its come back so suddenly........could it have been anythign to do with the colposcopy i had done??

Cyee Fri 07-Aug-09 12:59:31

Hey everyone - thanks for all your good wishes. No change here - but enjoying spending loads of time with FIL. I think he's totally and utterly sick of us now!!

Also wanted to pop in and let you know something positive and interesting. My SIL who's also pg has been asked to be part of a study being run by the consultant who did my op. They're inviting all first time mums in the hosp to take part. It's basically around rectal damage post-birth (either immediate or many years later). It's not exactly a fun study as you can imagine, with the anal tests many of us have endured, but I was personally really gee'ed up that they're looking into the reasons why this happens, who it happens to and how it affects different people. So there you go - someone somewhere is trying to learn more.. hopefully with the aim of preventing/better treating this kind of damage.

Sorry I haven't had a chance to read through all the messages since I was last one. Suffice to say Kentmumtj I am gutted for you... so so gutted. Have you been to see anyone yet or got a steer on whether the clp. could have caused this? Really feel for you - sending lots of vibes your way.

Oh and on the subject of whether or not to c-section, I had that very conv this morning at the hosp. They were 'pleased to be able to offer me a c-section' despite the fact it was my consultant's express demand! How very kind of them! For the record, in my case, the doc said that even early stage labour could cause stretching to the perineum (and I assume other bits I'd had fixed) so they'd be doing everything to make sure I didn't go into any kind of spontaneous labour.

Take care everyone

Cyee Mon 10-Aug-09 12:40:37

Bum(p) - anyone there????

ThingOne Mon 10-Aug-09 15:05:19

No. I'm not here. I've been at my mum's for a bit and I'm now sorting out too much. So I'm seriously not mumsnetting.

Doyouthinktheysaurus Mon 10-Aug-09 16:26:55

Hello all,

I don't know if I'm after advice or what really but I saw the gynaecologist today convinced I have a prolapse of the bowel and he told me he thinks my vagina is sagging which is causing the bowel problems. Could this be the case? I had a radical hytserctomy 3.6 years ago so the top of my vagina was removed along with the cervix and lots of other bits and then my vagina was sewn up at the top.

I have a bulge on the back wall of my vagina, I can't have a bowel movement properly without pushing it back in and I get terrible urgency when I need my bowels open.

He's referred me for surgery to correct the sagging but I'm panicking in case they operate and it's no better because I did have a rectocele after all IYSWIM. He only examined me for about 30 seconds. I'm assuming his thinking is that the vagina sagging is causing the bulging in the posterior wall?

Also he didn't really explain what will happen next. Please just reassure me someone will examine me a bit more thoroughly before messing around with my bitsblush

Sorry for the long post. I'm worryingblush

Sawyer64 Mon 10-Aug-09 21:57:56

How much did your gynaecologist examine you?

I had an internal,and then he used a Sims Speculum,which is a C-Shaped(Straight edges not curved though) metal instrument which is wavy,and wanted me to "bear down" and cough etc.

He was able to see whether it was the front wall,or back wall that was affected.

I think that the back wall is shortened and excess wall is removed or oversewn somehow,which if you imagine an upside down bag that is shortened one side,the whole area would be "tighter" at the top I think.

When they came to "consent me" for the Op the surgeon explained how they would do it,if that didn't answer your doubts,you could question the techniques I'm sure.

He may just be using "layman language" to explain,and really he could be talking about a Rectocele repair.

Doyouthinktheysaurus Tue 11-Aug-09 05:20:35

Thanks for the replysmile

He literally only examined me really briefly, asked me to cough a few times and then told me my vagina was sagging from the top<<eeek>>

The appointment was with the gynaecologist for my yearly check up following the radical hysterectomy but I figured I'd mention it to them rather than the GP who is useless. At least he reconised that something is wrong.

You're always left with more questions than answers aren't you? It's so frustrating.

Doyouthinktheysaurus Tue 11-Aug-09 12:48:40

I googled what was written on the pre-op questionnaire I filled in.

It's a vault repair-sacrospinous fixation which kind of makes sense so I'm panicking a bit less nowblush

I think I just expected them to um and ah a bit and refer me on rather than just say "you need an operation".

I hate hospitals.

Sawyer64 Tue 11-Aug-09 16:52:12

That sounds about right with the type of Repair you need.

Most repairs are successful,and you'll probably be glad later that they haven't "pussy-footed" about.

Scary at the moment though.

I had my Repair (Rectocele) in February,and I'm very glad I did.Took a while to recover fully though.But they tell you that.

Doyouthinktheysaurus Tue 11-Aug-09 17:02:26

I'm glad your op went well Sawyer64smile

Recovery time is worrying me a bit but at least now my ds's are older I don't have to worry about lifting them and they will be at school in the week.

When I had my radical hysterectomy they were both pre-school and child care was a bit of a nightmare.

Sawyer64 Wed 12-Aug-09 21:12:34

Second that! My DD1 was 4yrs and DD2 2yrs.

Very difficult not to lift 2 yr olds at some stage.

She was very good at climbing into things,tried to make it a game,but when she got a leg stuck etc......!

If you read back at our threads,we were usually able to potter about after a few days,and after a week start to do a few light things.

By 2 weeks I was back at work doing a sit down job(not recommended,but I couldn't take anymore time off)and was ok.A little sore and very tired at the end of the day though.

Everyones Recovery time differs,but this was about average.Mostly you can see we were all quite pleasantly surprised at how well we felt

Hulla Thu 13-Aug-09 14:07:27

Hi Doyouthinktheysaurus, I'm sorry to hear about your repair. Lots of positive stories here though and lots of support!

Ok, I saw my colorectal surgeon on Tuesday and he has confirmed that the outer sphincter is "fine" but my inner sphincter lacks tone. He said it is difficult to repair but the first option is to use a "bulking agent" - silicone injections into the internal sphincter muscle.

This isn't a permanent option (it may not work at all) and I'll have to go back every few years for more injections! I am so upset that I went into hospital to have a baby and came out a patient.

He also thinks I have nerve damage which will just get worse with age (I don't know the effect of that though) and he said he'll treat that then.

I have posted in breast & bottle feeding in a panic about my op but thought I would update you all on my progress!

Cyee, hope your fil is ok. Great news about the c-section. My consultant said on Tuesday that if I have anymore dcs they have to be delivered by c-section.

SammyK Sat 15-Aug-09 08:47:31

Hi there I have a rectocele and cystocele prolapse and am due surgery in November to repair. If any of you have endured a bladder test can you please have a look here for me?

DMCT Sat 15-Aug-09 23:04:27

Hi Guys,

Sorry I've not been online. Been away, and sometimes not in the mood recently - dont know why?!?!? But I hope you are all doing well, havent had the chance to read through all the latest posts.

Cyee hope youe pregnancy is going well smile.

Chat soon

Hulla Sun 16-Aug-09 08:50:43

Hi SammyK, I have never had a bladder test but I am sure there will be someone on here who'll know about them.

Hi DMCT I know what you mean, sometimes I can't face typing my miserable thoughts on here. Sometimes I quite like hanging around Telly Addicts and talking rubbish. smile

I hope you're well.

SJLTM Wed 19-Aug-09 09:12:45

Hi all, I said would check in again when I had some news !!
Have just had pre assessment at hospital, all good, and op is planned for 25th August smile
(TVT tape, rectocele repair and possible cyestocele. Also re fashioning of vaginal tear ).
All little poeple sorted as school holidays !!
couple of questions: paperwork suggests approx 4 ish days in hospital, but pre assessment nurse said, maybe home the next day ?? and secondly, do I need to totally shave my bits blush !! Hope you are all surviving the holidays , thanks.

SJLTM Wed 19-Aug-09 09:14:42

That should be All little PEOPLE !

Hulla Wed 19-Aug-09 15:00:50

SJLTM I have had the same sort of confusion over my op - I called my consultants secretary in the end. She cleared it up for me.

Not sure on the shaving either but when I was having dd was and was taken to theatre the midwife checked to see if I needed shaving and but said it was fine because I was very neat (pre-birth trim & tidy!).

I'd have thought if you needed to shave they'd have told you?

Good luck and let us know how you get on. smile

SJLTM Wed 19-Aug-09 16:20:12

HULLA thanks for handout says shave, the other doesn't mention it [hmmm]
although I do keep it rather tidy down there , iykwim wink just wondered if I needed to remove the landing strip !

Hulla Wed 19-Aug-09 18:30:53

PMSL grin I think you'll be ok to leave it on. So long as there aren't any really long bits to get in the way/make keeping your repair area clean then I can't see a problem. If not, you get a repair and a salon treatment on the NHS grin

SJLTM Wed 19-Aug-09 19:33:09


Cyee Thu 20-Aug-09 13:16:16

LOL at the shaving convo! I wasn't asked to for mine, but made sure I was neat and tidy. I'm sure the surgeon appreciate then when he was elbow deep in my bits

Hope you're all doing well. Great that you have your op date SJLTM - not long to go!

Great to see you DMCT - hope life in Ireland is going ok.

Welcome Doyouthinktheysaurus (great name)! Sorry to hear about your impending repair - hope you got the answers to your questions.

All ok with me, but not on MN much as mainly with FIL still. Still suffering chronic morning sickness and realising my pelvic floor muscles need work blush.

Take care everyone

Hulla Fri 21-Aug-09 09:42:59

My sister had her baby yesterday and a third degree tear (his hand was by his face when he was born) sad. She lost a lot of blood and looks dreadful. I feel sick for her but hope she got a good repair.

Cyee Fri 21-Aug-09 13:43:36

Oh Hulla - so sorry to hear about your sister. Hope she is well looked after and congrats on Aunty-hood

Just wanted to say this a really helpful thread. I only wish I had read it 19months ago when I had a third degree tear. I felt quite alone with it all then.

Fortunately I didn't have as bad an experience as a lot of you on here (my sympathy to all of you, there are some horrific experiences). I seem to have healed quite well, a bit of urge incontinence (front and back passage) but I'm sure if I was more rigourous with my pelvic floor exercises I could improve it.

What has brought it all back now, is that I am thinking of TTC again and although it is all hypothetical at the moment I'm already thinking about birth and the possiblity of tearing again. I don't mind the tearing, its the possibilty of worse incontinence that scares me!

Really glad of this thread, now that I've posted on it hopefully I'll be able to find it again (spent a lot of time searching third degree tears and not finding much!)

Cyee Fri 21-Aug-09 18:24:48

Hi GibberingGinger - welcome and sorry to hear about your experience 19 months ago.

I'm pregnant at the moment, so know what you mean about those worries!

I'd have a chat with your GP - obviously they aren't wild about agreeing people can have c-sections, but it's worth getting on their radar about your concerns. They might think it worth you seeing a consultant.

In my case they've recommended a section - however that's mainly because of their fear that my repair jobby will be reversed.

If it helps I know a few people who had 3rd degree tears that healed well and went on to have much less traumatic deliveries second and third time around. I guess in some cases the tear/repair has eased the way for subsequent births.

Welcome anyway and good luck with your TTC'ing!

Happy weekend!

SJLTM Mon 24-Aug-09 10:28:44

Hi all, tomorrow is the day of the opp !!
just had my second shower in all hospitals now do this ?
At my pre assessment appointment swabs were taken for MRSA (im all clear) but all potential patients have to wash in hibiscrub, before and after surgery...

Hulla Mon 24-Aug-09 17:43:20

That's interesting SJLTM, I didn't know they did that. I was swabbed too but haven't heard anything (so assume I am all clear?). Good luck for tomorrow, just think - not long until you can put it all behind you and get on with your life problem free.

Let us know how you get on.

Hello GibberingGinger, my colorectal surgeon recommended a c-section next time (if there is a next time! smile). I feel sad that'll never have the waterbirth I was silly to have such a fixed idea of the birth.

I agree, it is difficult to find information about subsequent births. I think cyee is right, it would be a good idea to talk to someone who can see your medical history.

I am more comfortable with the idea of a c-section (although its obviously not an easy option). I could not go through what I went through again and, like you, am terrified that I would be left woth worse symptoms than I have now.

kentmumtj Mon 24-Aug-09 21:13:49

hi everyone i havent been on for a while as i have been away for 2 1/2 weeks relaxing and getting quite a nice tan in the south of france.

well my recotocele is def back as when i have a nowel movement im doing exactly what i did before and upon looking it can be seen. Not sure if it is as bad but thats because i dont want to look too closely incase i get upset.

I have an appointment booked for end of september.

am so upset about it still and also havent been able to use it still grrrrr.

hope everyone else is doing ok

Hulla Mon 24-Aug-09 21:41:23

oh kentmumtj, I am so sorry to hear that sad

I hope you had a fabulous holiday. Let us know how your appointment goes next month.

ThingOne Tue 25-Aug-09 21:11:39

Sorry to hear that kentmumtj.

kentmumtj Wed 26-Aug-09 07:42:34

such is life i guess

kentmumtj Mon 31-Aug-09 09:15:16


well since my repair has all fallen apart i have been able to resume normal sexual activity's ........

think dh is pleased as am i, but we are both not so pleased that the repair has well not worked. My next appointment is towards the end of sept so should be interesting to hear what they say.

Cyee Mon 31-Aug-09 13:59:02

Oh Kentmumj - delighted about the rumpy pumpy but it's crap about the repair not working. Hope they can both sort you out and ensure they don't replicate the sex issues again.

SLTJM (think that's wrong but haven't scrolled back to check - how lazy!). Hope the op went ok and you're soon able to feel the benefits.

My lovely fil passed away last Sunday. Very sad but delighted he is released from his illness. Had a lovely service on Saturday for him.

Hope everyone else is well. Anyone heard from Jacksmama recently? If you're lurking - hello!

Jacksmama Mon 31-Aug-09 16:02:36

Hi Cyee, how funny that you should have mentioned me - I still have this thread on my watch list and have looked a couple of times but wanted to be reasonably caught up before posting.
Kentmum - I'm so sorry that your repair fell apart. I guess that's what was causing the problems with having nooky - although I can't quite imagine the specifics of how that would happen, nonetheless it obviously did so when they redo it, I really hope it's done properly!! ((((HUGS))) and wishing you the best of luck.

Cyee, I am very sorry about your FIL. sad A (((HUG))) for you, as well? How is your pregancy going?

We were away on holidays in July, and then had my half-sister from Germany staying with us for a few weeks. It was a little trying at times... fun at other times, though.

Physically, I'm doing all right. Have had several periods now and have gotten more used to using tampons (and regained my old disgust of sanitary napkins). I still have that horrible belly-ache middle of the month when I ovulate, though. And nipple tenderness when DS nurses at that time. Gah. I find, strangely, that when I do have a period and stand too long, my entire crotch aches like it did after I had DS. Resting takes care of that, though.

Thanks for thinking of me!

ThingOne Mon 31-Aug-09 21:37:33

Sorry to hear that Cyee.

Kentmumtj - good news on the pervwatch front envy.

kentmumtj Tue 01-Sep-09 11:57:07

cyee thinking of you and your family.

ive only done it the once so have lost my virginity all over again am tender and a bit sore but i guess thats to be expected. DH says it does feel a bit tighter. Im not sure what to think about it all being such a disaster, i dont think its as large as what it used to be from what i can see so maybe it has not all come ..... er whats the word.... undone????

ive just had a lovely weekend my brother had an engagement party on sunday and i threw a surprised 18th party for my daughter yesterday. It was fanastic and very emotional as she was so shocked, and for me as she has grwon into a wonderful daughter who im so incredibly proud of (although i may not have said that a few years ago lol)

ive booked the day off work today and am taking her out to lunch so will have another lovely day.

i seem to have much nicer days when im not working lol

jacksmama do you feel like your op has been successful?

Jacksmama Tue 01-Sep-09 17:26:47

Kentmum, yes I do. According to my surgeon, I am now "the same as any other woman who's had a vaginal birth" - really, whatever that means hmm.
DH says things feel as they did before to him.

However - having said all that - I don't think I'll ever feel the same. I hate how my bits feel now. I still have a ring of haemorrhoids that pop out whenever I have a bowel movement. They do pop in again as soon as there's no pressure on my bottom, but the valves on those veins are totally shot, as soon as I sit on the toilet they pop out and they make me feel like I haven't completely pushed out all the poo (sorry.) And I hate how my actual vagina feels. My cervix is still much lower than it was, so if I do any exploring (which, believe me, happens rarely) it feels like this fleshy mess inside. Although I know it's all normal structures. They're just not quite where they used to be. And I can feel the scar. It feels so different from the rest of my vagina - it's rigid and completely inflexible.
It feels so messed up. Even though it all looks neat and tidy and as it should, considering.

I don't know if I'll ever feel the same again, both in my body and in my mind. I think physically I'm healed as well as I could be until much, much more time has passed. It's only been 6 1/2 months since my op. Sex doesn't hurt, most of the time I feel fine. (Except as mentioned above, when I have my period.) But in my head, I'm still expecting to hurt. I expect that it will hurt when we have sex or when I insert or pull out a tampon (that can be pretty uncomfortable). I don't want to touch my bits because the sensation is still not right. And I don't know when, if ever, I'll be fully continent again. I don't have very good bladder sensation any more - I something think I have to wee when I don't, or have just gone. It's not urgency, it's just a feeling of "oh, hmm, I think I have to wee" but only a teaspoonful comes out. I can't really tell how full my bladder is until it's really full and then I have to GOGOGO!! And if I have to have a poo but wait too long, I sometimes lose a bit if it's not completely solid. Gah. I'm 40 years old FGS - what will it be like when I'm in my 60's??

Sorry to wail, you all. I'm a bit ashamed of myself because some of you have much much more severe problems than I do. blush And when I started to post this I didn't realize all this was going to come pouring out. I guess it still bothers me much more than I allow myself to think about.

kentmumtj Tue 01-Sep-09 20:52:08

im wondering did they use mesh during your op as i have heard they use this sometimes and was wondering if that was making that area feel different inside, not that i actually know what mine feels like inside im far to scared to investigate mainly because i fear it will feel awful and then i wont let dh near me again.

How do you know your cervix is much lower?

As for the need to go a wee frequently or feeling like i need to go just after ive been and nothing comes out this sounds very familiar to me, something i guess ive learnt to live with for quite a number of years until the hospital told me it was a prolapse of my bladder which they want me to go for physio on before operating but im too nervous to book up as i know they insert something and i feel like a virgin who is too scared to insert things

ThingOne Tue 01-Sep-09 21:40:05

Oh Jacksmama that doesn't sound good. Fluffy hugs.

thesecondcoming Tue 01-Sep-09 21:42:51

a very close friend of mine had a bowel,bladder and cervical prolapse operated on in January last year.The op was a disaster as all three prolapsed against walls that had been cut in order to restitch the prolapsed bits back IYSWIM.
She was off work for months and had to do a wee in a bucket type thing diary etc etc had physio,giant dildo's etc etc
Anyway-to cut a long story they said the reason her op went wrong is that she's very bendy/agile and her muscles were to stretchy for that op to work (?)
she's having another op next week where they are putting hammock made of 'shower scrunchy' attached to her hip bones,have any of you had experience of this op? i'd like to be able to have some shining examples as she's very down that things might go the same way again after the op. thanks in advance.

Jacksmama Tue 01-Sep-09 23:16:24

Just looked over my moan again from this morning blush and I want to say that I think I made it sound much worse than it is. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think anyone is ever the same again after a 7-pound-human and a pair of salad tongs have had a full-body tour of their vagina... but I occasionally do think that because Jackbaby's birth turned into such an utterly frightening mess, my head isn't able to fully let go of things even though my bits are, on the whole, more or less healed. Having said that, it's all worlds better than it was last year at this time. I wish I'd found MN and this thread sooner.

Anyway - thanks, ThingOne, I'll take that fluffy hug. smile And no, no mesh was used to put Humpty back together, just cutting out of torn and scarred mass of tissue and nice neat re-stitching. I know that my cervix hangs lower than it did before because I used to be one of those people who needed three pillows under her bottom so my GP could go spelunking for my posteriorly-pointing cervix. grin Now, no pillows or long-handled torch needed. It's pretty much right there. However, not prolapsed. The surgeon made me hold a mirror at my last exam and gave me lessons in my own anatomy. It looks fine and works fine. It just feels weird, different, like it didn't feel before, and I think I still have trouble wrapping my head around that.

Jacksmama Tue 01-Sep-09 23:17:53

Sorry, thesecondcoming, I didn't mean to ignore your post - I have no experience to offer but I really hope this op works for your friend.

Hulla Wed 02-Sep-09 08:27:55

Good morning everyone,

cyee I am so sorry for your loss. I understand the feeling of being glad that your loved one is no longer suffering though and hope there is some comfort in that for you and your family.

kentmumtj my brother got engaged and we went to his party on Sunday (you're not my sister are you?)

Oh Jacksmama, I don't you sometimes feel that the stuff in your head is a bit harder to heal that the physical problems? Have you had any counselling after Jackbaby's birth?

I think I am going to have to have some counselling. I had a huge row with my mum a week ago. To cut a very long story short, she asked me if DH and were ok - she had (correctly) assumed that we were still not having sex but (incorrectly) blamed co-sleeping and breastfeeding. I told her that everytime I think about having sex I feel physically sick because I picture the tear and thought of dh (or anything!) touching that makes me want to be sick. My mum gave the following helpful advice: If I don't do it he'll start looking elsewhere, its been 7 months now so time to get over it and, my personal favourite, use it or lose it!!

I was so upset with her. DH doesn't pressure me like that so coming from my own mother was pretty awful. Especially as she was the one who spent months caring for me after dd's birth and she was at my sister's birth 2 weeks ago and actually saw the tear and said she found it quite traumatic.

I know 7 months is a long time so perhaps I do need counselling so that I can start feeling normal again (incontince aside, obviously grin).

Anyway, I didn't intend to tell you any of that. What I actually came on for is to tell you that I am going in for my op today. I have had a real faff with the hospital. I was told not to bf for 48 hours after the general anaesthetic but I queried it with the infant feeding co-ordinator and she told me it was rubbish and I could feed straight away. She has spoken to my anaesthetist and he has suggested doing the procedure under epidural. So whilst I am horrified at the thought of being awake, it solves the problems about feeding after GA. I have bought myself a nice little mp4 player to listen to during the procedure (allowed, apparently).

The other problem I've had is the fact that I co-sleep with dd and she feeds often at night. The hospital want me in today for the operation tomorrow. I only found this out yesterday after querying the dates with my consultants secretary. It seems that when they told me I wouldn't need an overnight stay they meant after surgery. They have said that they will let dd stay overnight with me tonight before my op tomorrow. DH is off for the rest of the week to look after dd in the day.

So I'll let you know how it goes. Just think, this time on Friday I'll be able to say that I have silicone implants...grin

Hulla Wed 02-Sep-09 09:09:39

p.s. thesecondcoming I'm sorry I missed you out. I'm afraid I don't know anything about that procedure but you could suggest your friend join/look at this thread for support?

I haven't come across anyone else having my procedure yet but I have had lots of support and advice on here.

Hope your friend is ok, lovely of you to support her like that.

SJLTM Wed 02-Sep-09 11:26:35

Hi all.....had op on planned day, just ! no TVT tape as hospital forgot to send me for upto date bladder funtion angry....
Had both front and back repairs done and messy tear tidied up.
Consultant said he put a high stitch in as no bladder tape, not too high I hope as I have now been home for nearly a week with a catheter in situ as I couldn't wee.
By the time I had a bladder scan, I had over 1 litre stuck in there shock not fun.
Back in tomorrow to try without it far as the TVT tape is concerned, may have to have that at a later date !!!
Don't have laptop at the mo, so will check in later.
CYEE so sorry for your loss.
hope the rest of you are all ok .

Jacksmama Wed 02-Sep-09 16:46:31

Good luck Hulla and SJLTM - hope all goes ok for both of you.

BTW Hulla, yes I did have lots of counseling after Jackbaby's birth, and it was incredibly helpful... these seem to be just leftovers that boil to the surface occasionally. But shock at your mum!!!! I can't believe she said that to you!!

kentmumtj Sun 06-Sep-09 00:07:37

urgh im having a period from hell sad

Jacksmama Sun 06-Sep-09 06:55:12

Poor you. sad Me, too. angry It was two days late (which scared the crap out of me) and it's evil. Aside from the cramping pains, my entire crotch is just aching... it's the left-over nerve damage that my surgeon thinks I'm probably stuck with. sad And (sorry, I know, yuck) removing a tampon feels like I'm yanking my uterus out with it. But this one is too heavy for sanitary towels... I feel like borrowing one of Jackbaby's nappies!

Jacksmama Sun 06-Sep-09 17:47:59

Just want to mention that a horrible period and an upset tummy together are making Jacksmama very grumpy! angry

kentmumtj Sun 06-Sep-09 20:18:47

i seem to alwasy have an upset tummy i have IBS and when ims tressed it seems to get worse plus its so unpredictable

tampons are not going any where near me <shudders at the thought>

just wondered do periods get heavy the older we get?????

Jacksmama Sun 06-Sep-09 23:19:28

Maybe we just get wimpier.

Mellin Mon 07-Sep-09 14:31:41

I came across this thread while searching on Mumsnet and was wondering if any posters had experience with uterine prolapse?

I have recently given birth (4 week old DS) and suffered a prolapse in the early stages of pregnancy. My GP wasn't much help (her exact words were "I haven't seen this in anyone under 60" hmm) but I did get a referral to the women's health physio at my hospital.

Since giving birth it has gotten worse. Am due to see my GP and the physio again in 2 weeks, but I am so emotional and fearful about the whole episode I can bearly talk to anyone in RL about it without bursting into tears.

I know it is still early days after the birth and things might improve, but I feel as if it is getting worse every day. I am doing PF exercises like mad and know the advice is to rest and not lift anything heavy, but this is not really possible with a newborn and 2.9yo.

I guess I am loking for some support and hand holding, and hearing from others who might have been through the same thing.

DoomBar Mon 07-Sep-09 15:41:34

What a relief to find this thread but sad there's so many of us.

I got pretty damaged during my DDs birth 10 weeks ago; prolonged 2nd stage, forceps, episiotomy, fanjo & perinium ripped to shreds, poor stitch-up job, double incontinence...

I went to my GP straight away - she seemed to think that I should just give it time but I insisted on a referral to a specialist and am waiting for an appointment.

Most days I'm OK but every now and again I feel a bit sorry for myself, my bum still hurts a lot, I smell of wee, and am in mourning for my destroyed sex life.


Jacksmama Mon 07-Sep-09 15:47:57

<offers hand to hold and enormous (((((((((HUG)))))))))>

First, congratulations on your DS.

I don't have first-hand experience of a prolapse in the early stages of pg but have very close second-hand experience, my best friend had it. In her case it was because her pelvic floor was shot from a horrible delivery with her first child. Her (new) OB was slightly more familiar with this sort of thing but said that he didn't see it very often, as, "in his experience, deliveries that are turning into clusterf*cks aren't usually allowed to go on long enough to cause that kind of damage before someone intervenes". hmm I'd like to have any future babies where this guy practices... not that that's likely. But I digress.

Anyway, she had a pessary put in to hold things up until baby got big enough so her uterus couldn't fall down any more. And then she went on to have a C-section because her OB said her pelvic floor had been through enough. (I repeat my above statement - she said she adored this OB and I see why.)

Did you have a bad delivery with your first?

My delivery with DS was horrific (it ended in forceps and massive tearing) and while I didn't have an outright prolapse, my cervix was hovering pretty close to the opening for a few weeks. What a horrible feeling. It felt like all my insides were going to fall out any second.

You must be feeling like absolute crap. I'm so sorry. I don't have any practical advice beyond keep doing your PF exercises. It probably does feel like it's getting worse because as your uterus shrinks down it fits into the pelvic outlet better and probably makes it feel like it's right there ready to fall out.

Are you breastfeeding? I was told that the hormone relaxin, which helps your ligaments soften and the pelvis spread in preparation for delivery, is present in the body until 6 months after you stop nursing. Which slows down recovery from a prolapse.

It's so hard to talk to people in RL about this, isn't it? Anyway - I'm glad you found this thread but sorry you had to, if you know what I mean. It's been a lifeline for me and a lot of others.


Jacksmama Mon 07-Sep-09 15:53:28

shock DoomBar - just saw your post. Oh my dear - that was exactly what happened to me. Exactly. I ended up having an op in Feb to have everything fixed - which it is now, mostly, but unlike you, I suffered in silence for months until I realized, ok, this isn't healing, I need a specialist.
My sex life was pretty shit for a year - I think we did it four times and that was with me gritting my teeth for DH's sake.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

When is your appointment with the specialist?

Hulla Mon 07-Sep-09 19:12:49

Oh Mellin & Doombar, congratulations on the birth of your dc and welcome - although I'm sorry you have reason to find this thread. ((((((((Hugs)))))))))

Doombar I could have written your post 7 months ago. Crying in RL, nobody understanding, pain, shock, upset mixed with the exhaustion of looking after a newborn (my first post is on the last thread under my old name LuluLulabelle).

It definately gets better. Definately keep up the pelvic floor exercises and try to rest when you can. JacksMama is a lot more knowledgeable than I am, I can only go from my own experience.

My internal and external sphincters were torn after prolonged second stage and forceps delivery led to a 3rd degree tear. However, they missed the internal sphincter tear so I have just had an op to try and fix the incontinece caused by that (I'll update later). I think it takes time to come to terms with and to get your head around whats happened to you.

You're right to insist on seeing a specialist now. My obstetrician wanted to leave me, despite knowing I had continence problems. She told me to just do pelvic floor exercises. Then they found the torn internal sphincter that all the pelvic floor exercises in the world wouldn't have healed.

I'd like to say that my sex life is back to normal but its far from it. Perhaps some of that is due to having a small baby...I suspect not really but it makes me feel a bit more "normal". I am going to have counselling before my marriage falls apart. DH and I rowed all weekend and he now sleeps on the sofa more than is necessary (to give me space he says).

When I arrived at the hospital one of the other more senior consultants came to see me after my consultant had left and was waffling about the procedure and said "I'll be supervising the operation while Mr Consultant is in the lecture theatre and don't worry, no one will see you face only your bottom and the equipment". After he left I thought about it and felt a bit worried they were filming the procedure so I asked a nurse and she confirmed that as my case was unusual they had brought a national specialist in to carry it out while my consultant had invited a lecture theatre fulll of doctors from across the north of Englad to watch the "Live Operation". I felt sick. I hadn't been asked for consent or even told about it. They had still managed to produce a nice programme for the delegates though! After telling 3 people that I didn't want to be filmed they agreed to turn the cameras off.

My op went well according to the consultant. The anaesthetist was great and considered bf when looking at my drug options. I ended up having it under GA anyway. It was expected that I'd just have a bit of a dull ache for a day or so afterwards and 5 days on I am still in a lot of pain. It's like a burning in my rectum/vagina and I am sure I can feel the lump of the bulking agent rubbing against my coccyx. I can't take the dihydracodeine they prescribed because it makes me sick and drowsy and I can't co-sleep/look after dd like that.

The procedure seems to have tightened my back passage but I no longer have any urgency so I only know I need pass stools when its coming out which is a bit too late. I hope this improves as the swelling goes down etc.

Lastly, I have requested my medical notes because I really need to know what happened, why they missed the rest of the tear and what my long term prognosis is.

Mellin Tue 08-Sep-09 16:14:49

Thanks for the support ladies, but sorry that we are all going through similar.

Jacksmama - thanks for the information, how is your friend now? Did the prolapse return after the birth?
Ironically I had two very straightforward water births with no complications. I didn't notice a prolapse after my first, but thinking back on it now I think I might have had a minor prolapse because I had a feeling of heaviness and dragging IYSWIM... I just didn't recognise the signs at the time.

Hulla - How old is your DD? It must be difficult managing your recovery and a child. I can't believe they were going to film your procedure without consulting you first. All the best for your recovery.

DoomBar Tue 08-Sep-09 17:15:39

Thanks Jacksmama & Hulla for the hugs and a speedy recovery to you Hulla following your op.

Seeing GP again on Thursday to chivvy along the referral. I have urge rather than stress incontinence, which seems to indicate nerve damage and/or damage to the internal and external sphincters. Pelvic Floors don't seem to be having any effect whatsoever.

At the birth I was just relieved to get it over with, and thought I was just a bit unlucky that it wasn't straightforward.

It would be interesting to get my notes from the hospital - I was at 2nd stage for over 8 hours, I think that's when the damage was done, although forceps delivery will have also contributed. It was pretty clear to me that after 3 hours of pushing (after a 30 hour labour) I wasn't going to get her out, but instead of intervening then the MWs and Drs put me on a drip and then just left me in the labour ward - I gather that there were 'other emergencies' going on. And then all of a sudden I was that emergency and was whizzed off to theatre. -sigh-

Jacksmama Tue 08-Sep-09 17:36:53

Hulla - I am absolutely shockshockshock that they were going to film your procedure without your knowledge or consent. That seems outright unethical to me. I'm glad your spot a stop to that. My op turned into a rather artistic "how are we going to get these puzzle pieces back together" type of situation but was done at a teaching hospital and on the Informed Consent form, it stated very clearly that students might be observing the procedure and that I might have student nurses on the ward. (I did, they were fab.) My surgeon told me after that there was rather a crowd in the OR while she put Humpty back together. I didn't mind. The more people saw what had been done to me, and how challenging it was to fix, the better. BUT I would have had a fit if they'd been intending to film without my knowledge or consent.

Mellin - my friend's prolapse never came back. Thank goodness.

DoomBar - I have urge incontinence too. Plus nerve damage. I can't quite tell how full my bladder is unless it's really full and I have to go-go-go. But my anal sphincter seems to have suffered - try as I might, when I really have to go, I can't quite keep a poo in. Especially if it's not solid.

The surgeon said that any nerve issue that persists longer than 2 years after the injury is likely to be permanent. sad [ angry] I sincerely hope she's wrong.

missismac Tue 08-Sep-09 20:02:38


8 hours in 2nd stage!!! are you sure? Sorry to sound so incredulous but I'm so shocked. I thought that the most hospitals would let you go for in 2nd stage was 3 hours (usually 2) absolute max before moving to assisted delivery/ cs /whatever. Have you taken this up with your hospital? You must get your notes 'cos if what you say is true it sounds like serious clinical negligence. Can you say which Hosp this was so I can avoid ever working/ going there?

I'm truly horrified for you, you poor Love.

Jacksmama Tue 08-Sep-09 22:08:15

My midwife "let" me push for four and a half hours in the second stage. angry

DoomBar Tue 08-Sep-09 22:41:07

Missimac: Yup, it really was 8 hours. I started pushing at about 6 in the morning - despite the gas and air haze I do remember that because the midwife said I'd have a baby by 8oclock, but DD was back-to-back and had her head sideways and didn't budge. She was born at 4pm that afternoon. So far DD seems OK; only time will tell whether having her head squashed for so long has had any affect.

Don't really want to name names, but it's somewhere south london. I gotta get my notes - but I suspect it will be impossible to prove that my injuries were preventable and that the hospital was negligent.

Jacksmama: that's me too - when I gotta go, I gotta go right there and then. Hot curries definitely off the menu - am scared of getting an upset tum because there's no control whatsoever. I can't hold in a fart either (and they're whopping great window-rattlers too, try blaming those on a baby). Some of my insides also got stiched outside and the wound hasn't healed - it makes the whole toilet experience very painful. And as for sex... guess DD may not get that little brother or sister.

Still, musn't grumble - today was a lovely sunny day, I haven't shit my pants for over a week and DD has started sleeping through the night.


Jacksmama Tue 08-Sep-09 22:43:23

I think a (((HUG))) is in order. And maybe some wine.

<passes DoomBar a glass of nicely chilled vino>

DoomBar Tue 08-Sep-09 23:00:06

ooh, lovely - just what I need!
<downs wine in one gulp>
Thanks Jacksmama

Jacksmama Wed 09-Sep-09 00:02:58

<refills DB's glass>

Here, have some more grin - hopefully it'll numb the pain when you next have to wee...

Hulla Wed 09-Sep-09 07:57:06

Oh DoomBar you do make me laugh. You sound exactly the same as me (except for the 8 hour thing - I pushed for just over two I think and then was taken to theatre for forceps and a bit more pushing).

Mellin dd is 7.5 months now and is was very hard looking after her at first but I think once the pain wears off you don't know any different and you just get on with it. Having said that, I was so ill after she was born I moved back to my mum's for about 3 months and had a lot of help there. I didn't leave the house on my own with her until she was about 3 months IIRC. My mum said it was how she knew I was ready to go home (poor dh doing 150 mile round trips twice a week to see us sad).

I am struggling at the moment after my op though. DH took last week off to help but my mum took Friday so we went to mums (again) and my family helped with dd (I am struggling to carry her/sit and nurse her etc). My little brother said he'd help this week while DH was back at work so I stayed and dh went home. Then my brother decided to spend 2 days doing other stuff and I was left alone to look after dd for pretty much 48 hours. It was worse than if I'd come back with dh. I've returned home - at least I have dh first thing in the morning, at lunch time (he drives home) and after work.

Jacksmama they asked if I'd known in advance would I have given consent and I said I probably would have done, afterall it is a teaching hospital and doctors need to learn. I was just so upset that my consultant had been "meeting & greeting" his delegates before seeing me and still "forgot" to mention it. I think it just dawned on me that the reason he'd bent over backwards to help me (really short wait for surgery, very accommodating about bf (they got me my own room for the day and let dh and dd stay there while I was in theatre). I think he was just out to further his career and saw an opportunity.

Anyway, dh is off to work so I better go. Have a lovely day ladies (night - Jacksmama)

Cyee Wed 09-Sep-09 12:10:04

Hi all,

Hello and welcome to our new threadettes! Glad you're getting into the swing (ie letting JacksMama ply you with alcohol). This is a flying visit (something called work calls) so apols if I miss out anything/anyone.

Hulla I am HORRIFIED you were nearly a Cert18 without your consent - holymoly! How are you feeling today? It is so hard with a little one, isn't it? They are full on when you just need the space to recover.

DoomBar - I would be surprised if your hosp could remotely justify you being in the second stage for that long. What a horrific experience. Hope you get to see a specialist soon - my problem was urge incontinence (plus in context of fistula which meant poo could come out of any hole it fancied) and I only get 'caught' very very occasionally now thank goodness. Are you seeing a physio to help with the pelvic floors? I definitely noticed more of a difference when I was taking through them with a physio. I did that alongside the various referrals, idea being that I'd respond/recover better from any op if my PF was in better shape.

Reading this last page of posts has really brought home (again!) how utterly crap this situation is. For crying out loud, babies are enough to deal with, without all this stuff. I know you probably don't feel it, but you should be so proud of how you're all holding it together when most normal mortals are in bits with just a baby to contend with.


PS JacksMama - brill to have you back

kentmumtj Wed 09-Sep-09 16:05:50

hi everyone and new posters

it makes me very sad to read your experiences as it can feel so unfair at times but i must say that it sort of makes me feel a bit better as i thought i was the only one with unusualy problems down strange is it that i fond comfort in knowing i am not alone

anyways i am still awaiting my next appoitnment as they keep trying to fob me off with a different consultant and im standing firm i want my one after all he did the operation

oh and i got very tiddly last night whilst out with friends i managed to drink 2 bottles of wine all by myself .........'hic grin.......hic

Jacksmama Wed 09-Sep-09 16:51:54

Holy cow kentmum - 2 bottles of wine!! I'd be under the table no matter how much of a boozer I seem to be online grin.

Cyee, how is your pregnancy going? I'm not sure if you've mentioned it but I'm assuming you're going to have a scheduled section?

<waves to everyone else>

kentmumtj Wed 09-Sep-09 16:54:47

i was rather happy grin

and i followed it with nandos which was most welcome

it was a delicious rose

Jacksmama Wed 09-Sep-09 16:59:54

Oh I love Nandos. Mmmm... peri peri Chicken!!

Hulla Wed 09-Sep-09 18:13:05

<whispers> Took DD with us to Nandos at the weekend. Spicy chicken wasn't as much of a winner as expected but corn on the cob went down well <forgets she's not on BLW thread and gets carried away listing dd's meals>.

Oh kentmumtj what I wouldn't give for a nice glass of rose now....yum. Two bottles though? You're made of tougher stuff than me! I wouldn't be able to open my eyes type today if I'd drunk two glasses bottles. We've got beer in the fridge and a bottle of red in the kitchen. Wonder if I could drink beer in the bath?(DH has taken DD to the supermarket so I can bathe in peace). in the bath...classy.

Oh yes Cyee, I meant to ask if you were having a section too. Hope you're well & blooming(how far along are you now?)

Jacksmama Wed 09-Sep-09 19:17:39

I personally find wine in the bath much nicer. That is, drinking wine in the bath. I don't know what wine in the bath would be like (a bit smelly?) but it seems a waste.

I haven't tried corn on the cob yet... but we're currently trying to exclude as much wheat and dairy as possible to see if it improves Jackbaby's acne-like rash, and fortunately we've discovered he literally Hoovers up quinoa. Loves couscous too but that's wheat-based sad.

Whoops, this isn't the BLW thread, is it? grin

Jacksmama Wed 09-Sep-09 19:18:20

But neither is it the alcohol-of-the day thread so hey-ho... grin

kentmumtj Wed 09-Sep-09 21:51:41

isnt it amazing a bit of alcohol and we forget all our troubles......... must say its been ages since ive drank like that probably a good few years ....... but it was fun i felt young, silly, happy and alive again grin
i didnt have a care in the world although ive had a very upset tummy today sad

i cant drink red or white as i get badly sick but strangley seem to be ok on rose

ive managed nookie twice now whoo hoo think dh is soooooo happy

ive been thinking about the op and what you said about having it filmed me personally here i would have loved them to have filmed my op as long as my face was never seen as i would have loved to see what they actually did.........right up to the bit where they passed the needle into there own finger shock

DoomBar Wed 09-Sep-09 22:22:01

Hello Cyee and Kentmum

Oddly enough despite all the trauma I didn't think that I'd had a bad birth experience - I had no concept of time passing, forceps was with epidural so I didn't feel a thing (until later...) and the midwives that cared for me afterwards were lovely. For ages afterwards I was high from having the baby although I did suspect there would be problems but put it down to my bad luck - it's only now that the damage is becoming more apparent that I'm now considering following it up with the hospital. As well as incontinence and being stitched inside-out I think I might have a fistula as well because sometimes I fart from my vadge (that's a strange sensation).

Seeing Gp tomorrow so will ask about physio and how to direct exercises to the right place.

<wrestles wine bottle from Jacksmama>


Jacksmama Thu 10-Sep-09 04:29:03

<ungraciously relinquishes wine bottle to DB>

Go ahead, you seem to need it more than I do right now... at least most of my troubles are in the past.

It's hard to believe things can be allowed to go so wrong, isn't it?

>sneakily uncorks another bottle and finds a straw>

missismac Fri 11-Sep-09 13:51:50

Dear Doombar, please lift your head from the bottle.

I live in south london too and my work involves me with the maternity unit of my local hospital quite closely. Could you unblock your private messages feature on MN so that I can ask you to send the name of the hospital privately. I'm really hoping that it's not my one, but if it is it would be good to know.

If you're complaining then it might help you to research the nice guidelines for the clinical recommendations for length of 2nd stage. The NHS expects all hospitals to adhere to these guidelines and so it may give you a sound basis for your complaint, if - as you suggest- there is a chance they won't take it seriously.

If it's any consolation (can anything apart from wine be a consolation?) it doesn't sound like you have a fistula, fanny farts are a common side effect of vaginal birth - it's because the vagina is bigger & looser than it was. I think with a fistula you leak urine and sometimes liquid feces too - the leaking would be pretty constant. Hopefully this is one prob you don't have!

Hulla Sat 12-Sep-09 08:48:25

p.s. I didn't have beer in the bath (or wine for that matter). I had a shower and drinking alcohol of any kind in the shower seemed a bit less I'm-having-a-relaxing-half-hour-to-myself and a bit more I-can't-even-shower-without-a-drink-these-days


DoomBar Mon 14-Sep-09 13:11:35

Thanks Missismac, checking out the NICE guidelines as I write.
I think I've changed my options correctly... but if not I have mentioned the hospital elsewhere on the forum (when I was still in that happy haze and thought my recovery was "normal").

Phew, perhaps I don't have a fistula then - there doesn't appear to be any liquid leakage (just wind). One less thing to worry about I suppose.


Jacksmama Mon 14-Sep-09 21:00:08

FWIW - I had the feeling of fanny farts as well. I finally mentioned it to my GP and she said that because the vaginal opening is bigger after childbirth, when you pass wind it temporarily gets trapped in the opening and then passes.
Embarrassing but better than a fistula.
And it stopped happening to me sometime last year - but I can't remember exactly when.

Hulla Tue 15-Sep-09 07:53:15

I seem to recall Jacksmama lured me onto this thread via a thread about farting after childbirth!

I remember when DD was about 3 months old going to visit the in-laws and standing up to put dd in the car seat and doing a ma-hoosive fanny fart. It went on forever. I was so mortified and tried to pull a face that said "yes, that was the baby. Everyone was so quiet Did I mention that it was a birthday party? - SIL, BIL, aunties, grandparents, people who you call family but they're not really. I had quite an audience.

They're not as frequent now thank god.

Oh and pervwatch DH and I attempted sex at the weekend for the second time this year and all was going well until, for some reason, I did a big fart (normal exit). We ended up laughing too much to carry on but, farting aside, it felt like a step towards normality! grin

kentmumtj Tue 15-Sep-09 09:18:50

lol luving the fart convo's grin grin

Hulla Tue 15-Sep-09 16:22:21

Who ever thought I'd have so much to say on the subject! grin or sad not sure which.

Jacksmama Tue 15-Sep-09 16:50:54

My best friend from college can still crack me up when I'm having a hmm day by yelling "FART FART FART FART FART!!!"
Even my mum has done it on occasion just to witness the uncontrollable laughter.
Thank goodness she didn't do it much right after DS was born - I'd have PMSL for real grin.

Hulla Fri 18-Sep-09 19:20:05

I went in for my squeeze test and nerve tests today. I think my nerves are ok because they didn't go on to do "further mapping" but they didn't have anything positive to say about my squeeze test.

I found it quite painful after my op the other week and cried when I got into the car afterwards. I think it was also the embarrassment of it. A middle-aged man rooting around my bum for 10 minutes testing the nerves and having a 7cm probe inserted. All while another doctor and a nurse watched. And it was very bright. I felt like everything was on show, not just my bum. You'd think I'd be used to it now wouldn't you?

Anyway, DH took me for lunch in a country pub which cheered me up. He's just got back from the shop with cake - he's a good man smile.

DoomBar Sat 19-Sep-09 12:05:40

My referral has just come through so I'm seeing the bum-doctor next month. I have all of those pleasantries to look forward to. Lucky me!

Mellin Sat 19-Sep-09 19:44:26

You lot are a crack grin

I feel a bit of a sham posting on your thread because my prolapse doesn't stop me going about daily activities. It's just depressing that my body doesn't seem able to cope with what is was designed to do (childbirth).

I have my 6 week check-up with my Dr and a follow-up appointment with the hospital physio next week.

Hulla - I would be in tears too, sounds like an awful experience.

oopsacoconut Sat 19-Sep-09 19:51:28


Can I join you? I have a 1 year old DD adn since late pregnancy have had recurrent fissures and have been to see the GP who had referred me to a bum doctor (DH's wordshmm) I have an appointment in the 30th September. GP thinks I may have a rectocele BUT I have just found out I am PG with DC2 and am wondering whether to still go or to cancel and sort it out post birth?


Hulla Sun 20-Sep-09 09:02:55

You must bear in my though doombar - I am quite a teary person! My sister, for example, wouldn't be bothered by something like that. The procedure was painful because of my recent op I think.

Mellin I think that is one of the things which upsets me the most - I feel like my bosy let me down and at the moment I am really upset that I'll never have the birth I had in my birthplan (waterbirth). Its silly really but I can't help it.

Hi Oopsa Congratulations on your bfp! I think if it were me I'd go anyway and ask the bum-docs advice. I know my surgeon had a different view on furure pregnancies to my obstetrician. Some posters on here have had a rectocele so they'll probably be more help than me! Welcome to the thread!

Just dropping in to say hi. Even though I don't post much, I lurk and I find the fact that there is others out there with similar issues really comforting (is that warped? I wouldn't wish these problems on anyone, but am glad I'm not alone) Am sending positive vibes and supportive hugs to you all.

Have recently taken up jogging, and am hoping that one of the side benefits might be that if I carry less weight then my pelvic floor might have more of a chance! Had thought I was doing ok with strengthening it but jogging is a whole different league. Talk about leaking! Fortunately it is just wee, I make sure I go to the loo and am completely empty (wee and poo) before I go but it seems as soon as I produce some wee all the pounding along the pavements just shoogles it straight out. Must up the number of pelvic floor exercise repeats I do.

Still TTC#2. (what prompted me onto this thread is worrying about the whole thing again after a 3rd degree tear with #1) Will keep you posted if anything happens.

ThingOne Mon 21-Sep-09 20:17:59

And buy some tena lady too GG, there's no shame! My bladder's been affected by radiotherapy as well as surgery and (normal!) pregnancy and childbirth and there are days when I just know I'll be in trouble if I break into a jog. But do keep up the pelvic floor exercise too.

I still haven't got a date, whinge, whinge. And have been playing telephone tag with the colorectal nurse. Fortunately she leaves good messages.

Jacksmama Mon 21-Sep-09 20:42:57

I am steeling myself for this afternoon's appointment with the GP for my annual smear exam. Am dreading it, TBH. Would gladly hit the booze before if I didn't have to drive there. Not that I think anything is going to hurt, but I think my body thinks it will. If that makes sense. So my heart is pounding and my hands are shaky.
And I'm going to have to talk to her about my back sphincter. It really is not ok.

Anyone have a spare hand to hold? [pathetic emoticon]

Hulla Mon 21-Sep-09 20:47:54

<holds Jacksmama's hand>

Completely understand. You will be fine, remembe deep breathing to help you relax and it will be over in a flash. smile

<passes virtual wine which has no effect on ability to drive>

Jacksmama Mon 21-Sep-09 21:09:08

<gulps half the bottle, desperately clinging to Hulla's hand>

How are you feeling today?

Hulla Mon 21-Sep-09 21:22:21

Oh after I posted yesterday I had a good sob cry about dd's birth and how I'll never get to have the waterbirth I'd planned. I'm going to call the counselling tem my GP referred me to. It can't be right being this upset. I am also finding it painful going to the toilet - I assume its down to the bulking agent and I've had pain in my fanjo.

On the bright side, I've spent the day with with dsis and little month-old nephew - so cute!!

I'll be thinking of you Jacksmama - will you let us know how you get on?

Jacksmama Tue 22-Sep-09 00:14:26

Gah. Well, that was fun... not so much. I have to say to my GP's credit, she does fabulous internals. In and out in under a minute. It's just that by the time she's done, my legs are shaking and my heart is racing and I feel horrible.

I mentioned the pain in my bits when I have my period and she prescribed Voltaren suppositories to be used as needed. I also told her about my incontinence issues and she is referring me back to the surgeon who did my reconstruction. I asked why her, rather than a colorectal specialist and my GP said her rationale was that the problem was gynecologically induced, so to speak, and that all she could do would be to refer me to her local surgeon (no thanks) and that Dr. Williams at Women's would, if she couldn't help, be able to refer me to the top specialists at Women's and UBC Hospital. Ok. I loved Dr. Williams so it's not a hardship to see her again, only that I think she won't be able to help me and will have to refer me on so that means another wait. However, the problem isn't getting worse... so that's ok... and if it magically resolves itself while I'm waiting, even better. Not that I think it will.

I got home and literally had to sit down and take an Ativan compose myself before picking up Jackbaby from my girlfriend's two doors down. And she could still tell how shaken up I was just by looking at me... I really wonder if there will ever be a time when my body won't go into trauma mode when I have to have exams like these.

Is there any more of that booze around? blush

Jacksmama Tue 22-Sep-09 00:17:43

Sorry, Hulla, I was so wrapped up in my own stuff that I forgot to say - it may not be "normal" to be so upset after a birth like you had, but it's really, really common. Anyone who's had a birth trauma, from what I can tell, can still fall apart when talking or thinking about it, even years on. I'm still not over it and I had plenty of counselling. There's an element of post-traumatic stress that you may never quite 100 % get over. But I can say from my experience, it does get a bit better.
((HUGS)) to you.

ThingOne Wed 23-Sep-09 17:13:34

Well it's all me me me. I've not read anybody else's posts and I really could use one of Jacksmama's drinks.

Hospital is having trouble pinning down plastic surgeon (from another hospital) and they rang today. Was I free to see a different plastic surgeon in two week's time? Aaargh! I was expecting to have had my op by now!

And could I have op in (big) hospital in (big) neighbouring town. Bleurgh. Yeah, right, and have no fucking visitors for two weeks. Nice.

Rant over. As you were.

Jacksmama Wed 23-Sep-09 18:04:31

<hurriedly passes the entire contents of the bar to ThingOne>

That sucks. No visitors for two weeks?? I'd go out of my mind.

bubblejet Wed 23-Sep-09 20:59:47

I just wanted to say hello too. I posted a while ago but find it difficult to know what to post to stay in the chat, but I always read the thread. I wanted to say thank you as I get a lot of support from this. I love the new term bum doctor!
Things haven't really moved on for me since my first post, still doing exercises at home which don't really make any difference and also playing phone tag with colorectal nurse as missed my appointment in July (took a sickie - morning after Take That concert which was so good I couldn't bear to come down from it by having things stuck up my bum!)
At my last visit they offered me these hideous bum tampons type things that I could use with a bit of KY to stop leakage and farts, if I go back to work I might resort to them but at the moment I am sticking with denial. They also told me I do have a rectocele but mild to moderate so not bad enough to do anything about. Which is good I suppose..

But anyway thanks you lot for an amazing thread. I am aware all I do is take which is not like my RL me at all. There are some fantastic stories on here that do give me hope

Hulla Thu 24-Sep-09 11:07:53

Thanks Jacksmama, I am going to arrange counselling this week. I think I need it. My dh says I am not the same as I was before dd was born and I am not sure if that's just having a child or the birth trauma. He asked me last week if I still love him. How distant must I be if he doesn't even know how much I adore him? He said I never say it anymore and I shy away from cuddles.

Oh ThingOne that sounds rubbish. Can't you have it at your hospital then? I downloaded a few stand-up comedy shows from onto my MP3 player. I figured I could do with a good laugh in hospital. Obviously two weeks of Dara O'Briain is going to drive you mad but it might help?

BubbleJet I don't think if anyone minds if you just come to a thread for support. I don't give a lot either except for waffle smile. Do the bum tampons work? If they keep farts in I might ask about them for when I go back to work (eeek, though they do sound a bit scary!).

bubblejet Thu 24-Sep-09 20:08:57

Thanks Hula, the waffle is very comforting! I have to confess I haven't used the bum tampons. I cried when the nurse gave them to me and they have stayed in the brown paper bag at the back of my cupboard. But in some way they do give me comfort, its easier to manage when you're at home but the idea of being in a meeting and either having to run for the loo or farting throughout it has really worried me.. Given her demonstration I do think they would work (not literal demo obv!!) I am fortunate in that I don't have any pain, just no muscle, so I'm not concerned about putting them in even tho I am sure they will feel wierd..blush

I went on anti-depressants a year after dd and I do think it saved my marriage. I think a lot of my depression was linked to my injuries and not telling anyone about them or the problems they were causing, I took it all out in anger against poor dh.. I took the pills for a year and then 2 months later finally told gp and got referred. Even though physically nothing has changed, I think talking about it and understanding what happened to me (not why it happened - don't think I will ever understand that angry but at least understanding the physical side..) has really helped.
So in a nutshell yes I think going for counselling is a really good idea - no I don't think any of us are the same after dc but the trauma you have suffered is bound to have an impact..

Jacksmama Fri 25-Sep-09 02:42:33

Hulla, what you said about seeming distant to your DH and shying away from cuddles sounds very familiar. I was like that too with my DH blush. In my case, it was because I felt like he failed me utterly during Jackbaby's birth. Really, so did everyone who was there, but I blamed him the most.
We finally talked about this and it's all good now. But also - I got all the cuddling and loving I needed from Jackbaby. He was hardly ever out of my arms, so in a sense (I know this sounds warped) I didn't need any other cuddles and poor DH got shortchanged. That's better now, too.

I don't know if that helps any...?

Also just wanted to say, bubblejet, I really don't think that reading the thread and not always posting is "take take take". I bet there are areas in your life where you give much more than you take, so to speak, so it all balances out.

kentmumtj Sun 27-Sep-09 17:18:03

hi guys just wanted to say am reading all your posts and am thinking of each and every one of you.

i missed my appointment as they changed it to the day earlier and i go the letter the day after my original appointment ..........idiot hosptials guess i will have to wait another 6 weeks now grrrr angry

Jacksmama Sun 27-Sep-09 19:22:36

[crap] emoticon kentmum angry

ThingOne Sun 27-Sep-09 20:18:08

That is crap. I will stamp my still petulant foot for you.

Jacksmama Sun 27-Sep-09 20:32:10

How are you, ThingOne?
Do you still need the bar or can we have it back for the Tea Room thread?

ThingOne Mon 28-Sep-09 10:47:20

I think if you have a look you'll find there's not a lot to hand back.

Jacksmama Mon 28-Sep-09 15:35:27


ThingOne Tue 29-Sep-09 13:52:38


Jacksmama Tue 29-Sep-09 14:21:37

What's up? Has your op been scheduled?

ThingOne Tue 29-Sep-09 14:42:14

No. I should get a date when I see the new plastic surgeon next Thursday. But I'm just fed up, you know. It's all so horrible, isn't it? And stuff I can't say even on an anonymous forum just gets me down.

Fitness plan going well, though, even if diet and mood are not grin. I keep telling myself that if I just didn't have that glass of wine I'd be another 200 cals down on the day. Or if I didn't have that bowl of (dry) fake cheerios (non-Nestle, naturally) that too would be another 100-200 cals off. And that's all it would need to be. Just find it hard to be constantly upbeat, coping and dieting all in one go.

Jacksmama Tue 29-Sep-09 15:59:18

CAT me if you need an ear or a shoulder to cry on.


ThingOne Tue 29-Sep-09 18:40:40

Do you do calorie free chocolate?

Jacksmama Tue 29-Sep-09 19:34:21

On the Ragged Bits thread, EVERYTHING is calorie-free.

Cyee Mon 05-Oct-09 12:37:11

Ladies - I have been regularly reading the thread but have initially refused to post unless I could refer properly to all the messages and messagers on here... That clearly hasn't happened, so posting to say I'm still here and (hugs) to all of you that are having ops, hot having ops, marital relations (or lack of/dissatisfaction about), having (and not having) appointments, considering counselling, and generally feeling crap because... guess what... it's a crap situation angry

Things with me are ok - struggling with groin pain... for ALL THE WRONG REASONS I hasten to add Oh and my digestive system backs up when I'm pg so then when all gets going I very much appreciate my (now) sensitive rear end requiring urgent attention. Not.

So please stock the bar with non-alco drinks other than my occasional tipple which I will have here with a fantastic bunch of ladies who don't deserve the utterly shit hand we've been dealt.

Jacksmamwahahaha Mon 05-Oct-09 16:20:38

Awww Cyee. Hug and some lovely cranberry lemonade for you.

ThingOne Mon 05-Oct-09 18:32:42

And a mwahahahaha from me.

Still thinking of a good name for me. ThingMwahahaha maybe wink?

Cyee Mon 05-Oct-09 19:18:12

Mmmm... cranberry lemo, thank you very much indeed. Yum. I confess I actually just had a glass of full fat coke. My sphincter is not going to thank me for that.

ThingOneMwahahahaha... you're scaring me

Jacksmamwahahaha Mon 05-Oct-09 20:00:35

There is fat in coke???? shock


ThingOneOfYourNightmares, perhaps?

Cyee Mon 05-Oct-09 20:49:03

Hahaha - no just oodles of sugar

Jacksmamwahahaha Mon 05-Oct-09 21:00:53

Did you mean cake or coke?


Cyee Mon 05-Oct-09 21:23:34

Cooooooooooke Though I do like cake. Mmmm.... cake.......

Jacksmamwahahaha Tue 06-Oct-09 18:52:46

Cake... is there cake?

On a thread-related note... I have never been so happy for the existence of suppositories hmmgrin. I moaned to my GP about how much my bits still hurt when I have my period - they just ache, I think it's all that nerve damage - and she suggested Voltaren suppositories as a little bit of anti-inflammatory right on the spot, so to speak, might help... and it does, I feel so much better. Had nasty horrible back ache and pain in bits and period pains and a haemorrhoid that was acting up this morning (it was a crap morning I tell you) and two Voltaren supps later I am in work and feeling no pain.
[relief emoticon]

bubblejet Tue 06-Oct-09 19:20:18

Jacksmama that sounds brilliant. The aches - are they at the back or front? Sometimes all my bits down below ache so much when I'm on a period I just want to walk around holding myself down there. Haven't really thought to mention it to docs before but now I will def - thanks

Cyee Tue 06-Oct-09 20:24:56

<<Cyee waddles in, cuts a slice of the finest carrot cake, places gently on a plate and slides said plate across the Atlantic to Jacksmamwhahahaha>>

Jacksmamwahahaha Tue 06-Oct-09 23:36:49

<snarfs cake in a microsecond>

Wow, cake and fibre... I'm in heaven grin. Thanks Cyee!! How's the bump? <pats bump lovingly> When is Cyeebaby due?

Bubble, my aches are at the front. Kind of like someone gave me a good swift kick right in the crotch. Or, I don't know, let me think --- whacked me with a pair of forceps?? angry Fortunately my backside only hurts when my haemorrhoids are feeling insulted, for whatever reason. Feeling pretty good right now and I've been on my feet all day so yay for Voltaren suppositories (the actual drug is diclofenac, don't know if it's called that in the U.K.)

However - on the Roaring 40's thread one of the women said that she can still feel her forceps scar from 23 years ago shockshockshock!!

bubblejet Wed 07-Oct-09 10:55:45

ok that is too depressing to deal with but at least it 23 years I won't be having periods so that's something!!
Thats exactly how I feel too... Last question... which hole do you put them in blush
and yes we do have diclofenac here, used as an alternative to ibuprofen as a lot gentler on the stomach so I will def go and ask for them - thanks Jacksmamwahahaha smile

Hulla Wed 07-Oct-09 12:13:33

Jacksmama, thank you for your lovely post. It made me feel better. I am struggling to post properly on here at the moment - DD had learnt to crawl and pull herself up on furniture/walk herself around as well as drop naps. I never get a minute to MN anymore!

Will read thread later and post when dh gets home.

Hope you're all doing well smile

ThingOne Wed 07-Oct-09 16:40:13

Hello everyone. A bit more cheery today. Appointment with new plastics man tomorrow morning, eek. Am taking DH so think will have to keep him out of the room for a bit of it wink. Don't want to put him off for ever and ever, do I?

I get aches and soreness in my funny bit when I have my withdrawal bleed too. Mine's at the back, where my oddness is.

Jacksmamwahahaha Wed 07-Oct-09 22:49:37

Bubble - they go up your bum.

Hulla, I'm glad I somehow managed to make you feel better

Good luck with your app't ThingOneOfYourNightmares grin - I finally found your CAT message in my Junk Mail folder (oops - Shawmail was being a bit too exuberant) and replied. Will be thinking of you!

ThingOneofYourNightmares Thu 08-Oct-09 09:44:32

So you did. How rude of me not to reply. It arrived on one of Those Days.

Does my name suit me?

Jacksmamwahahaha Thu 08-Oct-09 15:25:13

grin Love it!
Nah not rude - I didn't mean that!! Was just wondering if between my junk mail filter and yours the thing got deleted entirely.
How are you today???

Hagg Fri 09-Oct-09 00:23:24

Hi there and thankyou all for this most welcome thread. I am newish to Mumsnet. Has taken a while to understand the way it works. I love the compassion with which folk are treated: eg. that there are people with the heart to try to understand even those who perpetrated the so-called 'Baby P' atrocity gives me hope.
My ? is to do with incontinence following delivery of a healthy boy (ds: what does this stand for? darling son is my guess am I right?)
Has anyone had the botox jab in the bladder to correct this problem (I read about it in the newspaper, for over 50s it said and lasts 6 months.)
Could I have it done privately does anyone know if nec.. Thankyou

Jacksmamwahahaha Fri 09-Oct-09 00:29:36

Hi Hagg and welcome!

DS is indeed Darling Son. If you look at the top of the page where it says "Topics" "Active" "Threads I'm On" etc, you will see "Acronyms". I found it very helpful to make sense of some posts.

I don't know anything about Botox injections for incontinence, but someone else on the thread may, or you could try posting a thread about it in "Childbirth" or "General Health". I gather lots of people have some incontinence problems after a vaginal delivery, even without any kind of tearing, so you may get a lot of responses.

Welcome again and congratulations on the birth of your DS!

LittleSilver Wed 14-Oct-09 12:45:35


I am so glad I have found this thread. Really need some advice; I had a 3rd degree tear with DD1 (4 years ago) which was misdiagnosed as 2nd degree. Idiot Girl let student midife suture. I noticed I couldn't control wind etc, but was so embarassed I didn't mention it to any HCPs. Sutures were done so badly had to be re-done under GA three months later. I eventually told my gP and was referred to colorectal surgeons who confirmed external sphincter defect - advised not to have anything done until family completed.

DD2 born two years later vaginally, they advised CS but I really didn't want one - I am a nurse, have cared for Cs patients and havng one myself was not remotely appealing. 1st degree tear sutured by reg as all mws got very panicky after reading my birthplan which stated very clearly that no midwives, student or qualifid, allowed near me with a needle! Incontinence, mostly of wind, which I know sounds minor but is sooooo embarassing I used to dread work sometimes. Aso had several very near misses still an issue

DD3 born five month ago - intact perineum really, jut labial grazes. Nothing changed really but on Saturday I was completely incontinent. I wanted to cry but had to muddle through somehow as was on my own with the children. And that's another thing - I have not told DH how bad it is, I'm too embarassed. Hardly attractive is it? IN fact, I haven't told anyone.

What do people think about method of birth for DC4 - (not pregnant, just ttc). I understand that it's not necessarily the actual birth that can damage, though I hardly think it will do one's shattered pelvic floor any favours, but also the pregnancy uts a lot of strain on it. I really really really do not want a CS. Ever. But I can't do another episode like Saturday.

Please can someone reply?

Cyee Wed 14-Oct-09 21:07:53

Hello everyone, and welcome LittleSilver,

Wow - 3 DCs - well done!

As a nurse your view on CS's is obviously different to mine and quite negative by the sounds of it, which I appreciate doesn't really help when you're in your situation. I have to say that all the people I know who've had c-sections have made good, quick recoveries. I had such a good first birth and hate medical procedures in general but I just couldn't face the idea of delaying my repair for many of the reasons you outline above. So for me the c-sections are the price I have to pay. I agree it's a high price, too high.

The only thing I suggest is getting another appointment with the colorectal person - based on your current state they should be able to advise:
a) whether you are actually going to damage yourself by going for another VB
b) whether your current state of health is something they can totally fix when you have completed your family
c) if there's anything you can do to improve your symptoms before and during your forthcoming pregnancy, eg physio to get advice on pelvic floor muscles

In terms of your DH and telling people - I think most people on this thread feel your pain. It really is the most personal, embarrassing and hideous situation. I did eventually tell my DH. I just didn't want him to think my physical unavailability was his fault or even DD's. I was utterly relieved once I did tell him and I think he was pretty relieved too.

It sounds like your incontinence was a one-off..? maybe a tum bug or something. So hopefully not something that will be repeated. I also had a couple of experiences like this and was inconsolable as a result. I can't even express how disgusting, despairing and helpless I felt. Horrific.

Anyway - please stay around and let us know how you go... and good luck with the ttc'ing!

On a more personal note, I am now 23 weeks pg and have a rather marvellous bump. I just LOVE having a firm tummy! Sickness has totally stopped... now I am just achy-of-groin. After my hopeless GP dismissed my complaint I had the wonderful experience of contacting my amazing physio from last year, who it turns out deals with all of this stuff too and I can self-refer to her! So I am delighted and hopeful that she can sort me out with exercises and advice to minimise the discomfort. I reeeeally don't want this waddle to get any worse and it actually is very sore.

I was thinking of doing a survey of this thread in my ongoing quest to find out whether the people who suffer from these injuries have had any similar experiences or potentially share similar (low-grade) underlying conditions. It just seems strange to me that other people can have bad experiences with forceps and not have the real trials and tribulations we've all had.

So in true anti-TMI spirit, here's my list of ailments/attributes that I think may signpost something about why this happened to me anyway. They are a mix of ailments outside and within pregnancy. Read it and weep. No seriously, let me know what you think... are we all ready for a medical breakthrough? Nobel prize anyone?
- Quite definite ovulation feeling mid month
- Very mild and sporadic IBS at times in my life
- Tendency to constipation and anal fissures in pregnancy
- Proud owner of what I understand (feedback from gratfeful clients!) to be a rather... ahh... tight vajayjay even following birth <preen>

ThingOneofyournightmares how did the appointment go?

OK - off for an early night now. Be back on here soon.


Cyee Wed 14-Oct-09 21:08:56

Jeeezz... I don't post for ages and then... well... I clearly don't suffer from MN-constipation, do I?

bubblejet Wed 14-Oct-09 21:29:41

Hi LittleSilver - I think we had a similar experience. I had a 4th degree tear diagnosed as 2nd with DC2. Unfortunately it took me 2 years to seek help so not getting very far at the mo with anything to fix the problems.. but lots of help here with managing them! Yes the wind is awful and prob one of my main problems as well as occassional poo incontinence. I am really grateful I wasn't considering more children as to be honest if I was pregnant I would have had a VB again in local midwife only as was unaware of how damaged I was, how this could have turned out scares me... So yes personally if I was to have more I would opt for CS. Like Cyee I have lots of friends who have had them and recovered really well and quickly - particularly where they have been elective rather than emerg. But obv its a personal choice - what really worries you about CS? I can imagine the recovery time with your exisiting 3 DC is a factor?
I am sure you will get lots more replies..
Also re DH - again I hid it for 2 years. Yes its now out in the open but to be honest we don't massively discuss it. My choice.. he ignores my farts ( isuppose he was for the 2 years!), its like they don't happen!We have never had that kind of relationship where we use the loo in front of each other etc.. Yes he saw all in labour twice but apart from that we don't do toilet gags. Gosh I sound really anal now (sorry bad pun!)grin It is so personal and such a taboo.. this thread is a lifesaver!

Cyee - lovely to hear about your bump! I know I am a quiet member of this thread but its lovely to hear your progress. I will always be grateful that you started this topic!
I def def have the first 2 out of your 4. Sometimes my ovulation pains can be worse than pp - I also have PCOS. Would love to have no 4 as well, can I just pretend I do? maybe no one ever thought to comment on it wink

SpawnChorus Thu 15-Oct-09 11:49:18

Hello! Not really sure if I belong on this thread with my problem, but you sound like wise women

I had DC3 three weeks ago, and I'm fairly sure I have some sort of prolapse. There is a bulgy bit just inside the front of my vagina. I can feel it moving sometimes when I change position. I don't have any bladder weakness though <<touches wood>>.

DC3 was huge (11lb 8oz) and had shoulder dystocia on the way out, so I guess this is to be expected. sad

Do you think it might correct itself with regular PF exercises (I've always been pretty good about doing them)? Obviously I'll mention it at the six week check, but it would really cheer me up to hear of anyone who has experienced something similar, and rectified it without surgery.


Cyee Thu 15-Oct-09 12:03:08

Hi SpawnChorus
Welcome - and hey flattery will get you anywhere

I don't have any personal experiences to share on this score but think some of the other ladies do/will. What I do know is that some prolapses can be treated without surgery... I think it depends on whether the prolapse is being caused by muscle/tissue weakness that can be fixed, eg with exercises and I've heard about some kind of vibrating thing (am I making that up?!). Or whether it's an injury that can only be resolved by going in and repairing it.

OK so that wasn't very helpful at all, was it?!

Congrats on DC3 - what a whopper!

Hulla Thu 15-Oct-09 14:55:22

<bookmarking to come back when dd naps later> smile

SpawnChorus Thu 15-Oct-09 14:56:22

Thanks Cyee

I'll take a vibrating thing over surgery any day wink

Hulla Thu 15-Oct-09 18:35:10

LittleSilver I have just posted something similar to your question in "Childbirth". I have been advised to have a cs for future deliveries but I'm struggling with that. My next baby might be in a perfect position (dd got stuck so rotational forceps were used) for the waterbirth I wanted. I don't want to have a cs for a baby that could easily be born vaginally.

That said, I remember how awful and long recovery from my tear was. I am in pain every single day now and continence isn't great to the extent that I dread returning to work.

I know how horrid am episode of incontinence is. It happened to me in a department store and I had to call dh at work to come and pick me and dd up (there was never any chance of hiding my problems from him!). Its humiliating to leave Debenhams wearing one of your dd's nappies! That's what scares me off vaginal delivery - I dont want that to happen to me every week when I'm 35.

Can you talk to your consultant?

Got to dash, dd is in an awful mood. Teething and tired. I'm in for a rough night I think.

Hi LittleSilver and SpawnChorus

Glad you have found this thread, its been a great support to me, even though I mostly lurk.

Pelvic floor exercises will maybe help LittleSilver but its probably best to go see the gp about it anyway.

SpawnChorus, I completely sympathise. I worry more about long term incontinence than any other aspect of childbirth. Am still TTC #2 but the second I do I'll be at the doctors asking for advice and planning my labour. Want to avoid cs, but don't want to damage pelvic floor or sphnter! What a choice to have to make.

Cyee, glad the bump is doing well. In response to your question
I never have had IBS
Never noticed ovulating
Never really had a problem with constipation
Don't know if I'm tight but did a hell of a lot of pelvic floor exercises when pregnant - too many maybe?

My main problem was I don't think I was ready down there. I was inducted and then baby got stuck and hence needing rotational forceps before hauling her out. She was also pretty distressed so I don't think they did it gently.

Mum was induced with all 3 of my siblings and my sister was induced with both of hers. Maybe my family has a long gestational period. I certainly won't let them induce me next time!

Good luck to all with appointment and procedures coming up.

Cyee Thu 15-Oct-09 21:25:02

Hey GibberingGinger - nice to see you

SpawnChorus, I'm with you on the vibrating point!! wink

DoomBar Fri 16-Oct-09 12:55:07

I saw the Bum-Doctor today - blimey, those anal probes are big aren't they?

I have poor pelvic floor muscle tone and my internal arse-sphincter is damaged roughly where I was episitomied - it has either torn or been cut (but not all the way through). The clinic's approach is to see what can be done with exercise so in a month time I'm to go back to see the poop-nurse who will go through the exercises with me, and then a month later more scans to see if there's been any improvement. So that's the bum. I have to wait for an appointment to see the wee-wee nurse, who will show me how to retrain bladder. No-one seemed to be able to answer my questions about possible nerve damage and sensory loss, despite the fact that [TMI coming up] my orgasms don't work any more.

I did see my labour notes, which clearly states that the reason the midwives left me at 2nd stage/10cms for a further 8 hours after 2 hours pushing is that they were just. too. busy. The maximum time given for 2nd stage before intervention under NICE guidelines is 3 hours. angry no wonder my bits are shot to shit.

Not the best day today.


Hulla Fri 16-Oct-09 14:58:12

Oh doombar! Can't reply properly now, have water infection and am sat in GP waiting room waiting to be seen. Just had to give you (((((hugs))))). Will post again when I'm well.

Cyee Sat 17-Oct-09 19:31:51

Doombar.... what a bad day... but good that they're on the case now? I would also have been GRRRRRR angry if I'd seen that on the notes. FGS...!

Take care and (((hugs)))

Hulla - get well soon.

ThingOne - how are you? How was the appt?

thisishorrible Mon 26-Oct-09 20:46:25

Hello there. I've looked at this thread before and nearly posted, but have been saying to myself that no, this isn't really me, each 'episode' has just been that, it's not a pattern.
This is going to be a way TMI message...
Well, yesterday evening I had another go of a bit of poo incontinence, and I think that may be the 4th time since the birth of DC2 6 months ago. Has been sort of skid marks before, this time it was more, though still not much. It's always happened in the evening, when I've known I've needed to go, have put it off for ages, and then decided I just want to go upstairs (tall house) and turn on the bath and whoops.
Also only happens when I have v loose poo - I think I may have some sort of IBS or food intolerance thing, doesn't bother me much, but does mean that I poo often, and it's usually v soft.
I don't know what to do.
Part of me says, stop being stupid, get you to the GP. Part of me says, stop being stupid, just bloody go to the loo when you need to, then you won't have a problem.
2nd one is true, but the thing is, in the past I never, and I mean NEVER, not in the midst of the worst tropical diarrhoea, pooed myself.
(Birth of DC1, by the way fairly textbook homebirth, though encouraged to push really hard at the end as had passed meconium - came out with a bang, nasty 2nd degree tear, infected, various issues with that tho no poo problems; DC2 super-fast HB, tiny tear, apparently all v easy. So am surprised to be having this...)
What do I do? Anyone else had something like this (ie NOT a super-serious tear etc. but still problems?)

ThingOneofYourNightmares Mon 26-Oct-09 21:43:58

Hi all, sorry I've been neglecting you. I could have sworn I posted about my appointment, but I must have pressed close instead or something stupid. New plastic surgeon seemed on the case. Doesn't specialise in this - well who does - but has done two very recently which have gone well. Described what needed to happen well.

I took DH which was a good plan. Op will be after Christmas which is what I wanted. I'm back on track on the diet but still a long way to go. I've lost ten pounds in the last 25 days. So lots more discipline for the next two months and I should be a reasonable size. Though I don't expect to carry on losing at that rate all the time.

I've had this really shit virus and been under the weather for about a month ya boo sucks. DH has had it for about three weeks. DS2 started vomiting last week but is now better. DS1 started being ill on Friday (day three of half term) and had a temp of 39.5 on Sunday! Not SF but still unpleasant. So you'll excuse me for not having checked in much lately wink.

Thisishorrible - good name. It is, isn't it? I'm now quite open with my HCPs about how horrible I find it. But please, please go to see a sympathetic GP. It's not normal to poo yourself and there will be some help you can get. Don't be put off if GP1 says just do pelvic floor exercises and come back. Ask for some specialist advice. Good luck.

bubblejet Tue 27-Oct-09 07:49:45

Hi Thisishorrible - I have to agree with ThingOne you should go and get checked out.
In theory my birth was straightforward, I was in a midwife only unit and home very quickly. The damage was missed. I understand now that there are cases where the position the baby is in when delivered can damage your bum even if the tear is small.

It is horrible we have to deal with this, but if you go now rather than leave it there might be more they can do to help - good luck and let us know how you get on.

*Thing One* good news re the op and sorry about the virus... isn't it always the way in half term!! I am meant to be taking DS to London today while grandma has DD - am trying to ignore her chesty cough and topped up the calpol! hope they pick up and well done on the weight loss!!

thisishorrible Tue 27-Oct-09 14:26:34

I knew you'd say this... I know I need to go and talk to the dr about this but oh I don't want to. I think I've been saying to myself oh well, it only happpens in X circumstances, it's not serious, it's all fine really - when of course I know that it isn't really all fine at all.
I also don't want to admit this is happening to anyone: not to myself, not to DH, not to a doctor (not because I mind specifically about doctors, but because going to see someone about this means it really is real, if you see what I mean).

So, what do I do: do I go and see the GP sometime next week, or do I wait 3 weeks and talk about it to the womens' health physio at the hospital (have a follow-up appt with her) and get her to back-refer me to the gynae people (ie is this a gynae problem, or is it a totally different area? the gynae thing is a birth injury clinic anyway)

bright autumn sunshine outside
two sleeping children
life feels bleak

bubblejet Tue 27-Oct-09 20:29:27

I can so relate to the don't want to. It took me over 2 years. I've had a couple of appts and tests but after missing one appt I have dropped thro their net. I know I need to call the clinic and get another appt but its easier to ignore you say then its not real..

BUT - the good thing is you don't know how bad it is iykwim... The damage might not be as bad as you are fearing? Not really sure about the women's physio but if is a birth injury clinic it sounds like they could help? I don't see gynae but a colorectal specialist (aka bum doctor on this thread - love it)
The GP actually referred me to gynae and they passed the referral to the colorectal, again shows how little GPs know about this and how little its talked about.

If you have a GP you are more comfortable with then try and see them but if not leave it till your clinic appt would be my advice but others may be able to offer something more useful?

It is real but only you have to know about if for now, you don't have to tell anyone until you feel ready. I didn't tell DH for ages and still don't share a lot. Not because he wouldn't be supportive but because I just don't want to! Take it at your pace and use this thread - its a lifesaver.

RuinedandUpset Wed 28-Oct-09 09:28:20

Hi Thisishorrible. If your GP is good, go and see them. I hate hanging around waiting when there is the chance there is a easy solution to this distressing problem.

You probably need to go to a colorectal specialist just to get things checked out properly. There are exercises that can be done with biofeedback machine which make you strengthen the proper muscles. In a few short weeks you might be sorted and not looking at this website anymore! It could be and hopefully is a short term problem.

I'm always looking at the internet after what has happened to me and it does seem that these issues resolve themselves in many cases in the first year. It also seems that if there is something wrong, the quicker it is dealt with the better the outcome. Best of luck.

Cyee Sun 01-Nov-09 21:38:12

Hi everyone,
Welcome Thisishorrible. Agree with ThingOne (hope you're feeling better?), Bubblejet (hi! and hope DD is feeling better!) and RuinedandUpset (hello!) - though wish I could say just let it heal!
See the physio, speak to your GP if you can... you need them to get a referral... not sure the physio will be able to refer you if they think that's necessary.
I know it's of no comfort whatsoever but the temporary embarrassment and discomfort of these consultations is far outweighed by the relief and potentially result you'll get by either being given a clean bill of health, or referred on for a repair. I know this is easily said by someone on the other side of things (ie repair done now) but I can't tell you how fantastic it is to leave the house and know that I am not at risk of accidents/urgent loo stops or breaking wind unexpectedly... things aren't 100% with me but I experience NOTHING like what I used to.
Take care of yourself and keep posting!

Oh and with the doc as well - and it being 'real'. I wussed out on my first approach - I called them on the phone. I was hoping they'd tell me it would just sort itself out and I couldn't stand the notion of phycically sitting in front of someone and describing what was happening. For one thing I didn't have the well-developed arse lingo I have now! I was stumbling over 'faeces' 'vagina' etc! Anyway, the doc listened on the phone and told me I needed to come in. It was a lot easier going in when I'd offloaded the key facts by phone. HTH.

In terms of DH - I feel your pain. I was pretty open with mine. Maybe not about every single detail, but he knew enough to understand what was happening to me and why I wasn't feeling particularly vixen-like. I think he only truly realised the extent of the repair and my feelings about the injury after my repair op. I think I'd held a lot back in case the op didn't work and didn't want him to know how scared I was or how dysfunctional I'd be/feel if the repair didn't work.

Hi to everyone else. Just back from a week in the sun (bliss!) and baked (BAKED!!) a banana and date loaf which I've just sampled. OMG YUM maybe there's a domestic goddess inside me afterall!

Take care all

thisishorrible Mon 02-Nov-09 15:03:26

Hello people, and thank you for being so helpful. I felt very down about things on Thurs-Fri last week, but have been v distracted over the weekend by nice family things.
Am still dithering about what to do, and what I think is wrong - ok, it's silly to try any kind of self-diagnosis on this sort of issue, but it's hard not to...
I guess that, reading more of this thread, I also feel like a bit of a fraud - I just don't have ANYthing to complain of compared to some of you. It's just that you do expect your poo bits to work perfectly, don't you...
Oh well, have only got the baby tomorrow, so I might try the GP -referrals take so long that I might as well go in two directions at once (via physio as well)
well i now have two needy children on lap/round knees: this isn't a good subject to think about with them present (older one watching every letter I type...)

Cyee Mon 02-Nov-09 19:29:33

Thisishorrible - glad you had a good weekend. You're not a fraud at all. I'm the one who started this thread and arguably my ailments weren't/aren't remotely as severe as many on here. In my humble opinion it's not the severity but the extent to which it interferes with our life and our sense of self that matters. In much the same way as some shave their legs every day and others every month (year?!) we're all different and our feelings, our need for support are all different too. So no need to feel like a fraud at all! Hope that example doesn't trivialise by the way - just wanted to say you can't 'rate' your experience in my opinion - some people don't seek medical advice for the most drastic (in my view!) symptoms while others seek out help for seemingly less minor issues. No better or worse, no right and wrong. At the end of the day it's all crap when your bits don't work - no matter the degree of damage. Keep posting!
Rant over

bubblejet Tue 03-Nov-09 21:40:57

thisishorrible its like you are writing exactly what I think! When I first found this thread a while back I offloaded when I had got myself a referral but then I really felt like I had nothing to complain about. Nothing to do with any of the lovely people on here I must add - I was given lots of supportive comments! But when I read through the thread everyone's problems seemed so much more severe.
I have had a missed 4th degree tear and things aren't as they should be but it doesn't affect my sex life and my 'problems' are in some ways manageable. So i've ignored the fact the colorectal clinic have lost me and just lurked around on here.....
But Cyee is right (as usual!) it's crap that our bits don't work!! Some posters have talked about physio and treatments that I haven't been offered so I really think I need to get my next appointment and push some more...
If I do it will you??? Let me know grin

Hulla Fri 06-Nov-09 15:20:11

Hi everyone, I've not been on for a while. DD will be napping sometime in the next hour-ish so I'll come back and read/post then.

Cyee Sun 08-Nov-09 21:31:22

Hi there everybody - hope you're all doing well and had a good weekend

gramber Thu 12-Nov-09 19:18:26

Hi. I have recently had surgery for an internal rectal prolapse, after eight years of symptoms, after the birth of my second daughter. Only diagnosed a year ago, as GPs would not listen to my symptoms and insisted on treating me for IBS. Just wondering if anyone else has had this surgery, and what their experience was as I am no better and at my wits end. I basically have no sensation of when i need to poo, and can only go when I use suppositries. Also lots of tummy pain and bloating. I feel surgery has made this worse, and although it sounds dramatic, I feel it's ruined my life. Can't go out in evenings, at least 2 hours in loo every day - I could go on, but I have been long winded enough! Just feel so alone. Thanks gramber

Cantspellmynameright Thu 12-Nov-09 20:42:55

Hi there - I've posted this under it's own title but had no response so was hoping you lovely ladies might have some advice?

Sounds like I may be looking at this thread for a while still!

I have had problems with excessive granulation of the scar tissue from where I tore with DS 19 weeks ago.

So far I have had 5 rounds of ab's as they though it was initially an infection because of discharge, then 5 rounds of silver nitrate cauterisation to try to shrink the tissue down. This week I saw my nurse again for the sn treatment and she told me she doesn't know why I am still getting discharge so swabbed me for infection again

I have to ring on Friday for the results to see if I need another round of ab's.

Does anyone have any information on excessive scar tissue growth? Has anyone had it?

My symptoms have been:

-growth of soft tissue at the scar site
-extreme pain to touch the area
-bleeding from the affected skin
-v discharge constantly

I have not been referred to gynae team yet as they wanted to see if the sn treatment worked but I have not had a full pelvic exam as they are worried about hurting me.

19 weeks after the birth I am now getting very frustrated with constant pain etc and (due to anx/dep problems) keep thinking it's something more serious than it seems.

Sex is out the window still and despite a very kind and caring partner we are both fed up with not being able to get back to the maritals!

I really hope someone out there can help!


thisishorrible Fri 13-Nov-09 19:53:19

Hello there can'tspell,
Sorry you're going though all that, sounds horrible.
I can't help with most of what you've written, but have a couple of things to share that might perhaps be helpful.
I had something that might be very slightly similar after the birth of DC1. Tore quite nastily, though apparently only 2nd degree, and it got infected and was v painful afterwards. I also had a sort of over-growth of soft tissue too, which was at first extremely alarming, but resolved itself pretty quickly.
(look away now if you're squeamish, very very tmi coming up)
My period came back at about 11 weeks, and when I put a tampon in I felt, to my great alarm, something resembling a cherry inside, near the opening. Was DEEPLY freaked out, even more so when, on removing tampon, it tore off (was only attached at a point - a bit like a mattress button, if you see what I mean). Dr had a look, said couldn't see anything wrong. Next month it happened again, just the same - another cherry thing, also came off. Even more freaked out. Dr also, this time. Was referred to clinic, but in fact it never happened again.
Does that sound at all similar to what's happened to you? I was never offered SN treatment, and it did clear on its own (ie after that 2nd time I didn't get any more 'growths' - though I did have another with my first period after DC2).

On the discharge question, I've also had hideous amounts after the births of both children, really disturbing. Was swabbed both times, but nothing ever showed up. And after my periods came back regularly, that disappeared completely. Dr this time said it was hormonal, but I found it v distressing this time as it was so copious, and he couldn't give me any hope that it'd ever stop (though it has).

I'd push really hard for a gynae referral, as mine took months to come through, and it's horrible having to wait and wait - why not at least get the ball rolling? Can always be cancelled if you turn out not to need it.

Hope that helps...

(still have head in sand on my own 'issues' - am considering going to the GP this week; I have to go without toddler in tow, and that means there aren't many options...but thank you all v v much for support)

Cantspellmynameright Fri 13-Nov-09 20:36:22

thisishorrible thanks for your reply, it is so good (in a bad way I guess) to know that there are other women out there in a similar position. It's not something you really want to talk about with RL friends in detail so it's good to be able to come here and feel I can talk about how I feel without anyone being put off their dinners!

It's interesting you mentioned the hormones with the discharge - I might mention that as all previous swabs came back unclear so I was only given ab's as a cover. I rang for my latest swab results today but they are not back yet - that's what I get for living in Cornwall I guess

I wasn't told the degree of my tears in hospital but I do know there were severe enough for the midwife to fetch her senior to do the stitching as one was a 'tricky' tear. I had multiple 'grazes' as well which I guess are small tears. It took about an hour to complete all the stitching. Unfortunately I think I tore on top of the episiotomy scar from DD. They had talked about cutting me again to prevent tearing but DS decided to arrive in 2 1/2 hours and they just about had time to catch him as he came flying out!

I know what you mean about the 'cherry' feeling lump and yes, I guess mine is a bit like that but very well attached. It is a lot smaller now but still feels (and looks) like a skinned cherry.

I think I will push for a gynae appointment if this swab comes back negative.

I know what you mean too about trying to fit in an appt without a toddler in tow - not the easiest thing to explain to them if they have to be there

On a positive note DH and I managed to get a little closer to the maritals last night and things went ok. I can tell there is an awful lot of scar tissue around the opening in a sort of crescent moon shape which feels incredibly tight and is very sore to touch. I have a feeling we are going to end up doing some sort of perineal massage - weirdly after the baby has arrived! At least DH is very patient and understands when I suddenly yell!

RuinedandUpset Fri 13-Nov-09 20:56:17

Hi Gamber, I'm sorry to hear of your problems which sound so similar to mine in many ways. I tried to send you a private message but you are not set up to receive them, anyway it might help someone else to see this message, someone might even have a solution for us!
I have horrible nerve damage (pudendal nerve)from a forceps delivery and cannot feel when I need to go and sometimes cannot go for a week. I too get distended and am so uncomfortable that I can hardly move or eat. So nightmare interventions sometime help but not always.

Stop reading now if this is too much information for you or if this is not your problem! Not joking here.

Latex gloves - buy a 100 glove box from Boots for very little really (5 pounds or so)and while splinting (pushing the back wall of the vagina with your fingers or thumb) also digitally empty your bowels. Its awful but if you are completely full, it is a help. Also you can buy micro enemas, they help sometimes as well as glycerol suppositories. I find that larger enemas don't work as well and are more difficult to use. I live in a country where a device that has been recommended for me is not covered by any scheme and I can't afford to pay for it. It is covered by the NHS, it is called the Peristeen anal irrigation system and it just might help you. Ask your medical professionals if you could have nerve damage, ask if this system could help you and if you could have a trial. You use it every other day, supposedly get used to using it. I have chronic pain which is linked to the nerve damage, do you have pain?

I'm sorry that you are in the same boat as me. I'm not coping with it well at all and am finding it difficult to accept. I have cried myself dry over this damage. Even though this is terrible, I have also lost sexual sensation and yesterday was my wedding anniversary. We are still newly married. That really is the greatest loss for me. Anyway I hope my message helped even a little.

gramber Sat 14-Nov-09 09:31:05

Hi Ruinedandupset. Thanks so much for your reply - although I don't wish this on anybody it is nice to know after years of suffering in silence, that I'm not the only one! I also had a forceps delivery, and although I haven't been diagnosed with nerve damage, I am certain that this is one of my problems ( as well as rectal prolapse, and intussception), as I cannot even feel to push when I go to the loo. I use at least 6 suppositries every day to empty my bowels, and it can be so painful and distressing. Enemas haven't worked for me, and although I've heard of splinting I haven't tried it. I never feel as if my bowels are completely empty. Are you able to give me a bit more info about the anal irrigation system, as I've never heard of it?

I wonder if consultants ever look at forums like this, so that they can understand how distressing it can be for us to have these problems? I find they don't really listen, and don't always think about the consequences of the treatments they offer. Sometimes, what fixes one problem, can cause another that's far worse. Also the emotional stress is often ignored. It's embarrassing to talk about - my husband doesn't know the half of it. I often have to cancel social plans, and forget staying at relatives or friends houses. How do you explain you might be a couple of hours in the loo!

I'm so sorry this is affecting your physical relationship with your husband - I can relate to that. I am usually too uncomfortable to want to have sex, and my sex drive has disappeared. I do worry that he will get to the point where he's had enough, although he is as understanding as is possible.

This problem really has ruined my life, and I can't see an end to it. I think there should be more education during pregnancy about the potential problems caused by intervention in childbirth, so that we can make an informed choice about the type of intervention we allow.

Thanks again for replying, it really does help to speak to somebody in the same situation, as I can't talk to anybody else this openly. If I hear of anything else that may be able to help I will let you know.

RuinedandUpset Sun 15-Nov-09 15:24:16

Hi again Gamber, I have talked to someone who had rectal prolapse surgery and it was a great success. Back to normal for her. I think you go back to your surgeon and discuss the outcome and options left for you. Perhaps there is something they can suggest to help you. Maybe it is early days for you yet and your muscles need retraining after so many years with the rectal prolapse? You mentioned that it was recent surgery. They will know about this anal irrigation system. It is commonly used by some wheelchair users and spinal damage people. Sacral stimulation is another suggestion for me. Try and get another appointment and talk frankly to the professionals. These forums are great in many ways but you (and I)need specailised medical advice to deal with this.

ThingOneofYourNightmares Sun 15-Nov-09 22:44:45

I've raided the thread bar again so will be brief but can I just give you two massive hugs. It's so hard. I really feel for you.

gramber Mon 16-Nov-09 19:16:58

Hi - I am not seeing my consultant again until April. They want to see me in Feb, but no appointments! I will talk through all options, and it will be useful to go armed with some more info. Thanks for your suggestions. I wish I could do what everyone else seems to take for granted! It's such a help to offload here, and to have such helpful support and hugs! I have a feeling I will be checking this thread a lot! x

Hulla Tue 17-Nov-09 18:27:01

Oh gramber, I am sorry you're having such terrible problems. I don't have any advice to add, I am not that knowledgeable really but I do have lots of sympathy.

RuinedandUpset, it was really good of you to post all of that. I am sure there are women who read this thread but don't post.

Thingone hope you're doing better.

An update from me. For anyone that doesn't remember, I had a third degree tear which was misclassified and so not fully repaired. I have been left with a torn internal anal sphincter which cannot be repaired. I had some surgery using bulking agent into the internal sphincter to help slow down the faecal incontinence and wind but it didn't really help. Or rather, it has just exchanged one set of problems for another. Going to the toilet is amazingly painful. I can't go into the other problems. Its just to awful to even type it (and I know you don't know me, but still). I still can't control wind, or even be disctrete. Social events are a nightmare and I get pain in my bum and vagina. Long car journeys are agony but sometimes I just wake up with constant pain. DH thinks I should just explain to people so that they understand why I just need to lie down (rather than sit) or why I might fart really loudly but I really can't do that.

I have had to go in and explain to my boss why I have decided to reduce my hours going back to work and why I may need to work from home sometimes. She was very understanding but I just left the meeting feeling like I'd wrecked my career prospects. I don't have the confidence to do a presentation, for example, should the worst happen I'd be a laughing stock. My job is fairly specialised, its not like I could just go elsewhere really.

I saw my consultant today and he was very sympathetic. He seemed surprised and disappointed that the bulking agent hadn't worked. I asked him to be honest with me and he said that my problems will get worse, probably by my 40's. Further pregnancies will also worsen my condition due to the impact on my pelvic floor. He also thinks that I will have no real choice in the type of delivery - CS only.

He is recommending a trial of InterStim, a sacral nerve stimulator. Its an electronic implant which is a bit like a pacemaker for your arse. It stimulates the sacral nerve to give more tone and control to the muscles. If the trial is a success then I get a permanent implant. He said its a commitment for the rest of my life though which is why the recommend the trial.

I need to research it a bit first but I feel like I don't have much choice but to try it. I am really upset today but I'm sure once it all sinks in I'll be ok.

Off to have a good sob in the bath now. I'll check back later/tomorrow.

gramber Tue 17-Nov-09 19:20:42

Although we have different problems Hulla, I can really sympathise with you. It's also the embarrassment factor, on top of the pain and discomfort. The impact of these problems on our lives is so huge. I hope there's an end in sight for us all.

I was really interested that you mentioned the sacral nerve stimulator, as this was mentioned to me by a registrar at one of my initial appointments. For me it would be to stimulate some sensation. I'd be interested to hear if you go for it. I think all these procedures are quite new, because it's only fairly recently that women have got up the courage to talk about the damage we suffer in childbirth. I think some of it is still fairly experimental - we're Guinea Pigs!

Lots of luck, and let me know how things go.

Hulla Wed 18-Nov-09 09:38:41

I really fear for the future gramber, on top of all of those. My consultant said he's seeing great results with the interstim; women in their 50's wearing continence pads who are back to normal afterwards.

It does come with some restrictions but my consultants view was I could have it now and get the maximum benefit from it rather than wait until things get really bad when it might just slightly improve things.

It costs £12k apparently so you have to have a two week trial with an external pack. If you go for the permanent one you have to go back in every 5-6 years for battery changes, re-programming and perhaps repositioning of the wire.

It just makes me feel so old all of a sudden. This time last year I was a healthy woman with a great career, social life and marriage. DH and I were so happy now we're trying to get an appointment with Relate. sad

I'll link to the Interstim brochure when I get home this afternoon. I am off to pick up my medical notes and visit a midwife friend for her opinion on what happened. She was going to discuss the possibility of home birth for any fututre babies but I think thats ruled out. sad sad

gramber I also think you're right about women getting the courage to talk now. My MIL has hinted that she suffers problems since giving birth to dh but she hasn't seen a gp.

gramber Wed 18-Nov-09 11:35:21

Hi Hulla - I can really relate to you trying to get an appointment with Relate! I have been looking into couples counselling also. My DH is great, but I know he gets so frustrated with me having this problem, and my reluctance to tell him exactly what is going on. I don't think his idea of a happy marriage is spending the evening with a glass of wine, flicking through TV channels on his own, whilst his wife is upstairs trying to go to the loo! I almost feel I should ask him to leave to give him a chance at having a normal relationship with someone else. I feel so guilty for the impact this has on my family.

RuinedandUpset Thu 19-Nov-09 09:25:52

Hi Gramber,
perhaps you need proper pain relief? I have rectal and vaginal pain from the nerve damage and nerve pain relief does help as well as doing very little physically. Pain is very distressing. An absolutely horrible suggestion here but there are devices that you could use for short times such as a presentation - anal plugs. I spoke to a woman who maintains a state of bowel constipation with her diet to help with her incontinentance, God help us having to discuss these issues. I tell people I know what has happened to me and how it has effected me but they don't want to hear it, they think that I'm exaggerating. I feel very isolated and very different from the person I was before.

My first child was delivered by section and it was fine. I had no problems, some short term pain but nothing like this forceps delivery. This type of damage was always known about by the medical system, its just it could be continued as long as women stayed quiet. Forceps use is much cheaper than sections. Thats how I see it now anyway. No more children for us, how could I manage the pain and the discomfort of the pregnancy as well as the risk of increasing the damage even with a section?

Hi Gramber,
Somebody in Cardiff is doing a study on sacral stim implants for chronic constipation and is supposed to be having good results. (I haven't looked into it yet) I think that I was told that you will know within the trial if it works or not. I don't know any of the drawbacks.

Hulla Thu 19-Nov-09 18:29:38

R&U it's reassuring to hear you say that the pain of a CS is nothing like the pain of a forceps delivery. I completely understand when you say you feel like a different person. People don't understand. I don't know if posted this before but DH and I went to stay with his brother a month or so ago and I was in so much pain after the car journey (3 hours and we arrived at 9pm and having had no dinner). I asked if they minded if I went to bed just to lie on my side for a while because of the pain. BIL said fine but I had to come downstairs to eat and drink as they have a rule of no food & drink upstairs. I was really upset. I know it's their home I just wanted a little bit of understanding. I skipped dinner. The pain of sitting at the dining table would have made me cry.

Does anyone know if you can have an elective CS at full term or do you have to go in early?

I completely agree that the use of forceps is largely a cost issue. DD had awful bruises on her face for weeks if not months from the blades. I don't know how Trusts are rated now but when it was the star rating I am sure a high level of CS adversely affected their score.

I read my notes yesterday and it was really upsetting. My birth notes mention how I was requesting induction and epidural (I was 5cm and delivery suite was full so I was on antenatal ward for hours). They do not mention how I also asked if I could go to another hospital or have a cs because I was afraid of tearing! It seems they only included what they decided to go with.

DH and I discussed more children last night, we'd hoped to TTC next year but now we're not sure. I adore my dd and if she is all I ever have then I will be completely happy but I am sad that I will pay such a high price in order to have the family we talked about.

I think I mentioned that my employer has offered to pay for counselling so I called today to arrange an appointment and ended up crying to the poor woman who answered the phone. I turned out she was a counsellor herself so I think I got a bit of a freebie on the phone grin

Here the Medtronic link with a link to the brochure on the right.

Cyee Fri 20-Nov-09 13:44:37

Just a quick one from me to say that I feel so sad and angry reading these recent posts. Bloody awful.

Hulla, on the subject of elective cs, you go in at 39 weeks ish unless there are reasons to go earlier. That's what they're doing with me anyway. Also, even if you do go into spontaneous labour before the cs they will still do it, but are keen not to leave it too late as any kind of labour may aggravate the kinds of injuries/repairs we have.

Take care all

gramber Fri 20-Nov-09 14:53:33

If I had known the potential damage childbirth causes I would have had caesareans with both of my dds. We're not told enough about these awful problems, until it's too late. Our bodies have been wrecked, and although I wouldn't be without my children, I think all women should know what childbirth can do to you. There's a huge guilt factor in having anything other than a natural birth - what a load of crap. We're all different, and surely our long-term health and quality of life is more important than chanting in a birthing pool!

kentmumtj Fri 20-Nov-09 22:36:44

hi everyone and some new faces
gosh i think it has been ages and ages since i was last on here.

Ive managed to read through lots of posts to try to get myself up to speed and ive found it difficult since being off here for so long.

i do hope that everyone on their own journey to recovery eventually gets the best results they can

Hulla Sat 21-Nov-09 09:21:25

CYEE Did you ever start your own website? I am thinking of doing it. Your threads have been such a huge, huge support for me and I don't intend to leave but I think I want to start up a site dedicated to these problems.

I often search online for more information, I bet there are so many women who never find MN.

I'm feeling particularly angry today. You know, if obstetricians cannot reliably repair the injuries they cause using forceps then they have no business using them.

I lay awake last night for the third night running planning my letter to the consultant who stitched my tear when dd was born. I am just so angry.

Cyee Mon 23-Nov-09 08:37:43

Oooohhh.. just saw my post from yesterday didn't appear.

Hulla - the web site never happened though I agree it would be excellent. So feel free to go for it. I'm a much better contributor than I am organiser, so let me know if you go for it and if there's anything I can do to help.

Was out with my NCT ladies on Saturday and even those with 'normal' births, stitches etc. were saying that it took over 12 months for sex to stop being painful. The more I learn the more I wonder how many advances are taking place within obstetrics/midwifery... ie I don't think there are any. When you think of the advances in medicine generally and things like plastic surgery in particular, how come our experiences aren't really too different to those of our mothers and grandmothers?? Makes me MAD!

thisishorrible Tue 24-Nov-09 13:05:22

hello everyone.
I'm so horrified to read the most recent posts - Gramber, Hulla, R&U, what you are going through sounds incredibly hard. I don't know what to say other than I'm so sorry, and I really hope that you get the help you need. It's fantastic that this thread exists.

I saw the women's health physio today and talked to her about my poo problems. She said that she's been reading lately about sphincter damage, and apparently it can happen even when there is absolutely no tearing (something to do with the shearing force of the baby?) Anyway, she was encouraging about things, gave me some more exercises, and she'll do a proper check when I see her again in the New Year. So at least I now feel I've done the responsible thing in talking to a health professional about it! Much easier with her than the GP, somehow...

Jacksmama Tue 24-Nov-09 19:41:33

Hi all... gosh I seem to have fallen off this thread for a while blush - sorry!! Welcome to all the newcomers. (I always say this sorry you had to find us but glad you did.

Cyee, congratulations on your bump! grin
Hugs to everyone else. What shitty (pun intended) things we have to deal with.

Brief update on me: haven't had any actual incontinence since July (cheers for that hmm), but due to occasional IBS, don't like being away from home when having diarrhoea. Spoke with my surgeon about this and she said I needed to go back to the pelvic floor physio. If things haven't improved by Feb (Jackbaby's 2nd birthday) she will refer me to the poo clinic for biofeedback treatments. But on the whole, things are pretty good. The Voltaren suppositories my GP prescribed help with my painful bits when I have my period, and about the only that is really aggravating me right now is that my haemorrhoids are acting up. Grrr. angry

For Cyee's survey -
I do have mild IBS.
Never felt ovulation pains until 1999 when I had a miscarriage - since then, strangely, I always feel it when I ovulate, and since my periods came back after having Jack, the ovulation pains are fierce.
Re: tightness of my bits, well, I dunno. Never had any complaints, but never had any special mention of the matter, either. grin

To whoever it was who said her orgasms don't work any more - that means you have pudendal nerve damage. The pudendal nerve is in charge of orgasms, as well as anal sphincter sensation and motor control. It can easily be crushed by a baby who is stuck and is left there while mum tries to push, especially for hours of pushing. Also easily damaged by forceps.

Cyee Tue 24-Nov-09 20:41:38

Hey Jacksmama - lovely to 'see' you And hello Thisishorrible.

Thanks for your congrats. I only have 10 weeks to go. ARGH!

betty88 Wed 25-Nov-09 14:49:21

This is my first post on mumset and may seem trivial compared to some of the issues people are dealing with but I am hoping for some advice and reassurance...

I had a third degree tear with my DS 22 months ago. I gave birth 6 days ago and had a 2nd degree tear in a very similar place (both babies came out with one hand up).

I realise this is very recent but since coming home I have been suffering with control over my rear end. The tear is healing very well so far (i'm off painkillers and can control pee well enough). But when I need to poo I have no control over it and pushing my finger into my anus met with very little resistance (sorry if that sounds a bit gross...). My mw is referring me to the physio but it won't be weeks/months till I get an appointment.

Mostly I feel fine physically, I am just tormenting myself with visions of a future of fecal incontinence. Is it manageable? Am I worrying too much about it now when PF exercises and time might make things better? How can I stop dwelling on the if onlys - at the moment I am keeping myself awake my dwelling on the fact that I was offered a cs but chose to have a vaginal delivery.

Please forgive me if my issues seem mild, but to me they seem terrifying and sometimes overwhelm my enjoyment of my lovely babies.

Hulla Wed 25-Nov-09 15:31:04

Hi betty, welcome to MN and to our thread!

From what I have read this sort of problem is common after childbirth and can last upto 6 months pp.

I think they like to let things heal a bit before sending you to physio but I believe it does help.

Time will definately improve things. Just think, your pelvic floor muscles are still recovering from 9 months of pregnancy and the weight and hormones that come with that.

Also remember that this thread is probably an extreme example of birth injuries and that most people recover just fine. I would hope say that we're not representative of women who've suffered tears.

Will see if I can find more info for you.

Congrats on the birth of your baby btw! smile

betty88 Wed 25-Nov-09 17:11:15

Thanks for your welcome and response.

You have made me feel a lot better. My research seemed to only find experiences of people who had no problems or those that had extreme ones, which has made me fear the worst.

I will try and relax, work on my pelvic floor and enjoy my maternity leave with my babies. And will face the physio when I get an appointment.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I hope I don't have to post on this thread again. However, you have made me feel immeasurably better, so thank you and I wish you all the best.

Hulla Wed 25-Nov-09 18:10:06

I had originally typed something about hoping not to see you on here again but thought you might take it the wrong way grin

Hope to see you around mumsnet though smile there are much cheerier threads on here!

Hello everyone. Sorry to hear some of you have had horrible experiences and I really hope that this thread is helping. I know it comforts me.

I haven't been on this thread in ages. A quick recap of my history - rotational forceps and a third degree tear 2 years ago left me with mild (but annoying enough) faecal incontinence. Mainly paying more attention to it cause was planning on getting pregnant again and realised that my biggest worry about the whole thing was further damage.

Well, I'm now pregnant again grin, and went for 12 week scan and booking in yesterday and found out it's twins shock

Was all hyped up at the appointment to rant about no induction, no forceps, and possible elective c-section. But was kind of distracted over the issue of having two!

Am kind of off topic here, but I'm still in shock and think that maybe by telling everyone it might make it more real!

Cyee Wed 02-Dec-09 18:36:05

Oh my goodness congratulations GibberingGinger!!!!!! Wow - twins that's fantastic news! Did you have any suspicions?

I'd imagine you're more likely to have a section with twins - I guess it was too early to talk about that yesterday?

Ah - I'm really thrilled for you

Welcome Betty88 - good luck with everything!

Hi to everyone else

Jacksmama Wed 02-Dec-09 19:52:50

Wow GG - congratulations!!!! Fantastic news! Good luck with everything!! ((((hug))))

LittleSilver Wed 02-Dec-09 20:20:45

I saw my consultant on Mon and he suggested Interstim to me as well. Anyone had it (thanks for the brochure posting btw. Interestingly he did not recommend a CS with next baby.

Cyee Thu 03-Dec-09 09:07:27

Hi Littlesilver - great that your consultant is on the case with Interstim. Haven't had it so have no feedback.
On the CS front, I've only been recommended one because my repair would be damaged by another vaginal birth. I think the majority of consultants feel that an injury that has "healed" is not inevitably going to reoccur in future births. My personal view is that for many of the ladies on this thread we aren't 'normal' people with 2nd or 3rd degree tears, so you have to wonder if there's something that predisposes us to these injuries or certainly to more protracted recoveries... hence I think CS should be discussed.

How do you feel about VB vs CS? Which would you prefer?

Hulla Thu 03-Dec-09 11:22:12

Morning all, ginger! Congratulations, I am so thrilled for you! How exciting.

I received my pre-op appointment for my interstim trial which I think might be before Christmas so I'll post all the details if it helps.

This week I saw a gynae at another hospital for my vaginal pain and for the first time I felt like someone took me seriously about how upsetting this all is. She has urged me to complain to my trust about the missed tear and ask questions. She said it shouldn't happen. Just hearing that from a doctor was like a weight off my shoulders.

Anyway, it seems that some of the bulking agent I had injected into my internal sphincter has travelled to my vagina & set solid like a pebble. She has recommended surgically removing it along with cutting my episiotomy scar a bit because its tight. I am not sure I can face it tbh and she has concerns about further damage so I might just have to live with it.

On the subject of of CS v VB she explained it to me like this: If things are awful, as bad as you feel they can be then you could say "I'll have a VB because Ive nothing to lose" and that would be a good argument in favour of VB. However, if you're managing and you think it could be worse then she'd recommend a CS to keep the baby away from the tear area and avoid the risk.

It helped me make my peace with it all actually. It made sense to me and although things are bad I can't face making them worse.

I start my counselling today smile

Oh one last thing, because I have asked to work p/t because I want to see how I manage pain/wind/incontinence my employer is looking for another post for me. I'd also asked to limit my travel (meetings all over country would leave me sore from sitting on trains for long journeys) & big presentations (scared of doing something humiliating). So Im being moved from my high profile, make-a-name-for-yourself role to another one. sad

How are you cyee? Are the weeks flying by? smile

Cyee Mon 07-Dec-09 21:22:05

Hey Hulla
Yes the weeks are absolutely flying by. I only have about 8.5 weeks to go. Eeek!
It was lovely reading what positive effect a good experience with a doc can have. I'm so pleased you feel more at peace. How did the counselling go? What kind of counselling is it? Is it CBT or something like that?
I was really sorry to hear about your job situation. Is your current role a no-go from a p/time perspective or has your employer just assumed that? Are they being supportive? I can't tell from your post whether you are driving the change (ie you've told them what you can't do, and this means you can't do your old job) or whether they are driving it (ie taking advantage of your situ to move you) or is it a bit of both? Keep your wits about you.
Take care

Hulla Tue 08-Dec-09 09:43:45

8.5 weeks? Where did the time go? Gosh, have I been whinging about my bum for that long now?

I'm not sure about the counselling yet, I am not sure what kind it is but so far she seems to interrupt a lot to say things like "that's awful" and "Poor you" which really throws me and actually makes me want to smile. So maybe its a good thing. She has said she thinks we should focus on the impact this is all having on my marriage and actually one thing that did make me cross - I told her it had affected our sex life because of pain etc. I also somehow ended up mentioning that we co-sleep and she jumped on it immediately and suggested that might be the problem rather than the pain angry. I think she thought I'd brought dd into our bed to keep a bit of distance from dh (like bed is the only place to have sex).

Actually, the job thing is working out much better than expected. I am moving into a project role which is something I have been wanting to do for years. So it looks like my cloud does have a silver lining. It was a decision from both though really. I am an accountant and my role involved a lot of reporting to the board at month end. Its very specific days which may not always fit with my p/t hours.

Cyee I hope you have a lovely relaxing Christmas & New Year before your lo arrives. Will you come back and tell us what you have and how it all goes?

DoomBar Tue 08-Dec-09 21:50:52

Jacksmama - it's me that's got broken orgasms (as well as other problems). I have no control over my external anal sphincter either, nor can I stop a wee once it's started or jiggle any of the pelvic floor muscles. Nerve damage is looking very likely I reckon but my GP, the bum-doctor and bum-nurse have all pooh-poohed (I do love that expression) the idea. When I mentioned it again the bum-nurse said that they "don't test the nerves for damage because if there is damage there's nothing we can do anyway". I'm getting really cheesed off I'm no further along than I was 5 months ago, and this is supposed to be a specialist clinic. Grrrrrr. very angry

I can't feel bugger all in there but wa-hey! Am pleased to report that I can join the gang on Pervwatch. It was a little painful where I was stitched but nothing like as bad as I thought it was going to be. smile


Hulla Wed 09-Dec-09 08:59:41

Doombar can they fix your broken orgasms?

My colorectal surgeon sent me for nerve tests. He told me that he wanted a baseline as of 2009 because he expected things to be ok now but to deteriorate.

I don't know if they can do anything or not but surely thats not the point? I need to go back and read what happened to you. I seem to think it is similar to me. Did you push for hours?

Im really pleased you've got marital relations back on track. We tried again last night because I just wanted to feel "normal".

So where are you with the specialists now? Is that it or are they going to try to improve things/sphincter/nerves?

DoomBar Wed 09-Dec-09 18:55:30

Hey hUlla
long story short - i got into difficulty because of a back-to-back baby and a loooooong 1st stage; I pushed for 2 hours then was transferred to labour ward for assistance but lack of staff meant that they left me for hours before intervening; they then cut me to pieces and the forceps tore me a new arsehole. By the time baby was born I had been at 2nd stage for over 10 hours (although in my notes it's documented 8 hours); have complained to the hospital, have de-brief with head of midwifery next week.

not sure where I am with treatment now. i've had all sorts of things shoved up my bum which has confirmed that both anal sphinters are damaged - how bad the damage is I've no idea, they've not told me. the only "help" I've been given is a couple of leaflets on incontinence and told to do lots of pelvic floor exercises which unsurprisingly aren't doing anything.


kentmumtj Mon 28-Dec-09 11:18:48

Hi everyone, I'm lying here in bed as I've been Reading a book and don't want to get up how lazy and I was reflecting over the past year

I thought about my problem then operation then recovery and finally now and don't honestly think it was worth it.

I've caught up on everyones stories, pregnancies bumdctors incontinence sexual problems counselling that is needed and all the other issues and am really tempted to contact my local hospital and suggest certain departments read all our threads as I'm sure they would find them very useful

I do hope each of us eventually reaches a place where we feel as happy as can be even though it's hard as we will never be who we were

Cyee Tue 29-Dec-09 20:28:25

Hey everyone, and hello Kentmumtj,

I think you're right about the benefit of healthcare people reading threads like this. I recommended my physio read it... but was too chicken to actually show her the link as I'd already told her I started it blush

I think that while we've all shared many experiences, our own particular circs are often quite different and I wonder if this distracts the various people/departments involved from coming up with approaches that would benefit us all.

I've been faced with confusion and weird looks when I've explained my situation (and reasons for section) to consultants and midwives. All agree it's 'odd' and 'you must have had some kind of weakness there'. Great!

Anyway, I mainly came on to thank you for being so great in 2009 and to wish you all a better, healthier, happier 2010. I'm booked in for my section on Feb 4th so will be online before and after (possibly not during) that event to let you all know how it goes.

Take care everyone,

JacksmamaInAPearTree Wed 30-Dec-09 05:01:13

Awww Cyee, come on, surely you can manage a few posts while having your section - how hard could it be?? grin

Seriously - wishing you all the very very best for 2010. Thank you all for being here and understanding.

Love, JM

DMCT Fri 01-Jan-10 23:09:17

Hi guys,
I havent been on for ages, But Happy New Year to you all, hopefully this one is better!

Not alot has changed with me, my lil one is 21months now, i havent had sex since i was pregnant, i am starting counselling in the coming weeks, my gynae consultant is talking about injecting botox into my levator muscles to try to relax the muscles so i might be able to have sex, my A-R consultant was talking bout injecting something into my sphincter to stop the small leakage i still get, and the womens physio wants me to all sorts of crap (no pun intended); Oh yea and last night i got hammered and decided to try and have sex (with my husband of course) thinking if i was hammered i wouldnt feel anything but I did and it didnt work!

What a **** disaster.


Cyee, glad to hear all is well with you, Ive only read the last few messages but it seems that your pregnancy is going well and you have a date set! Congrats

ellaeleven Mon 04-Jan-10 21:34:52

Please can anybody help me? Wish I could read all of this thread but have a screaming colicky baby who lets me have only ten mins at a timesmile. I am 8 weeks post birth, was induced, 4 hours and then 9 minutes of pushing and a 2nd degree tear and there she was. However, and this is the embarrasing bit (feel so bad didnt even mention it to doc at 8 week check todaysad) , having googled my problem I am pretty sure I have a fistula (if that is the correct term, sorry). When I break wind about half the time I feel it on its way out and then it disapears and eventually comes out vaginally. This mostly happens when I lie down. I am feeling so anxious about this. My questions, if anyone can help are;
Will it get worse if I just leave it? Everything else feels fine down there, just the wind problem.
If I do want it treated is surgery the only answer?
I have not had 'relations' with dp since birth. Should I avoid sex? Can a fistula become infected?
So sorry for the tmi. Have not mentioned my problem to anyone in real life. If anyone can advise I will be so grateful, thank you. X

Irishchic Mon 04-Jan-10 22:02:02

Ella go to your GP and get referred to a colorectal consultant and also obstetric physiotherapist. I had a 3rd degree tear and still have problems. That is why I went on to this post to ask for help/opinions, then I saw your thread and didnt want to leave it unanswered. I have what you have too. I have already been to a colorectal guy and he said there was muscle damage in my sphincter inner muscle but that surgery wouldnt help it because it was classed as mild incontinence and so might only get worst if they went in an operated.
Its pretty unsatisfactory really...I find it hard to control wind at times, and if I pass it when sitting down then it eventually comes out vaginally, and very noisily, BLOODY embarrassing.
PLUS (and sorry for TMI) whenever I have a bowel movement, in the couple of hours between it and next going to the loo some poo seems to leak out and when I wipe myself at the back there is always some there..which is a HORRIBLE feeling, you never can feel it happening and though its only a time bit its enuf to warrant a good wipe and its really getting me down depressng me and making me go off sex cos I feel dirty.

Should I go get a second opinion? I cant believe I have to live with this for ever..sad

Hulla Tue 05-Jan-10 18:02:31

Ella, just a quick post but I'll pop back later. I had this sensation after a 3rd degree tear and was worried about the same thing but after examination was told that all was well its just that wind can sort of travel up the front so it seems like it's coming out the front.

Obviously you know your body best and if you're worried see your gp but I wanted to offer some reassurance. Apparently, the sensation is not specific to a tear, just a vaginal delivery I think.

Brief update on me, I haven't been doing very well at all since I last saw my colorectal surgeon. I just feel like I have cried for months, the counsellor was rubbish and made me feel worse ("think of how your dh feels, he probably doesn't have anyone to talk to") and I think I might be a bit depressed but am far too scared to see my gp incase they think I'm in no state to look after dd

Hulla Tue 05-Jan-10 18:06:23

sorry had to post, dd hit the keyboard and my post went a bit odd.

Anyway, I am still waiting for my interstim trial. I have found a private therapist who's going to help me work through all my issues and hopefully save my marriage as I have become a moody b*tch.

Sorry for the dreary post, I'll post something cheerier later. Mat leave ends this week and dd starts nursery so thats on my mind.

I'll catch up on thread later. Hope you're all ok.

Cyee Tue 05-Jan-10 19:20:24

Hey DMCT and Hulla - lovely to 'see' you both That counsellor sounds like a cow bag Hulla, better off with someone new. That's outrageous what she (he?) said - as if you're not concerned about your DH. Grrr.

Welcome Ellaeleven and Nikita09. Sorry to hear about your experiences. Ellaeleven, I can echo what Hulla has said about wind - while I'm no doctor, feeling wind from vag doesn't defo mean fistula. Have you had any poo come out of that hole (how lovely)? That's how I knew. I still get fanny farts now, though panicked the first time it happened after my repair op. Agree that best to see GP and get referred to be sure. I had a fistula and in brief, no they rarely get infected and there's no reason to avoid sex. They do tend to partially close over and then open again but this is normal (ie avoiding sex/tampons won't make them heal) as they pretty much never heal themselves due to the nature of the beast.

Nikita09, I don't care whether they categorise it as 'mild incontinence', it's absolutely horrible when your bum isn't working properly isn't it? It made me feel awful, unwomanly, unclean etc. Have you been referred to women's health physio? I think you should get a referral to one and for a second opinion colorectal. If they can't operate and if it's 'mild' then I'd expect that expert physio support should improve some of the symptoms you have. It's more than just doing kegel clenches. The pelvic floor supports vagina and sphincter so getting that in good shape should be a priority. At least then you'll know to what extent the symptoms are manageable. Keep us posted on how you get on.

Irishchic Tue 05-Jan-10 19:49:36

Thanks Cyee - So great to be able to talk freely about this on this forum, its a Godsend!

I did have obstetric physio after DC3 when I had the bad tear. They gave me biofeedback treatment which helped. I went back after my last baby 18months ago but this time she said it was not so weak and only needed pelvic floor excercise treatment though I would have preferred the bio feedback.

I must confess that I am not the best at remembering to do the pf excercise, and sometimes get downhearted as I know that even when i do them every day, there are still those symptoms there, which though minor compared to many of the posters here do impinge on quality of life and self esteem.

I might go for a second opinion cannot hurt, and in the meantime resolve to pelvic floor exercise EVERY day, its the only way to keep the worst of it at bay.

Thanks for the support and suggestions. I will keep you posted. smile

ellaeleven Tue 05-Jan-10 21:35:46

Thank you so much to everyone who offered advice and shared their experience.I really appreciate that first you take the time out of your busy lives to read my post and then try and help. I am going to pluck up the courage and see my gp. I am so sorry that any of us should have to go through this but what a difference it makes to know there are wonderful women out there feeling the same things, if not worse, but getting on with it. X
Nikita09 While I'm new to this just wanted to say go and get a second opinion. You shouldnt have to accept that you will have to live like this now and in my own experience with another health problem in the past I didnt give up seeing doctor after doctor until the problem was fixed and I felt happy again. Good luck to you and I am with you on the 'must do pelvic floor exercise every day smile

needaloofast Tue 05-Jan-10 21:53:41


I'm not sure if i should be on this forum, but i don't know who else to talk to. Since having my dc 8mths ago i have had no.1 problems with my no.2's, specifically very little warning when they are about to occur!

had a very looong labour (contractions for over a week) but a very short 2nd stage (2 pushes) as had emergency forceps when my ds got into major difficulties (was being prepped for em cs.) Had small tear and a large episiotomy and was told 2nd degree. These problems happened immediately; as soon as i sat down on the toilet for a wee i would feel as if i needed to poo - but i never mentioned it at the time as i thought it was normal after an episiotomy.

It has got better since in that can go for a wee without needing a poo, but it's just the urgency which gets me. I get maybe 2 mins warning max and i needa loo very,very fast.

It's not so bad when am at home, and can plan daily activities like shopping by scheduling after the morning crap and making sure am home in time for the evening crap, but i have to return to work and am, pardon the pun, crapping myself about crapping myself at work.

My job couldn't be worse: dealing with members of the public for home visits and high level meetings with local politicians and civil servants et al. Sometimes there can be 25+ ppl in meetings which have to chair. Just having the urge to go in this situation is scaring me sooo much!!

Plus sex is v painful at first with other half. We have managed it twice i think with lots of lube. It's just initial pain but that's another great after effect!

I haven't talked about this to anyone else, and it was only coming across this forum that gave me the confidence to tell dh what have been keeping secret. He was very supportive and told me to see my gp.

What i want to know is - should i see my gp, is there anything that can be done, or should i wait some more time in case it is one of those things that just gets better?

And...we would like another child. But could preg and vaginal birth make this worse??

Looking back at your so brave posts has made me realise that my problems are in no way as bad as a lot of people here. x

Funny thing is i used to be very toilet shy and never go except in my own loo but now i have no shame and now take a dump anyplace. What a welcome house guest i must be blush!

hugs and kisses xx

Hulla Tue 05-Jan-10 22:28:18

Nikkita so sorry I missed your post. Your symptoms sound much the same as mine; internal sphincter damage causing incontinence of faeces & flatus. It's wrong that nothing can be done. I have had a colorectal surgeon take my problems very seriously. I had bulking agent injected (DMCT I have had probs since mine - it's helped keep faeces in, not wind & some of it has moved to my vagina & gone hard causing pain) which is straight forward & can help some. I am now looking at a sacral nerve stimulation trial. They tend not to operate on the internal sphincter because to get to it causes damage to external sphincter and is not very successful in a follow up repair.

You can see your gp & ask for a referral to another hospital. Are you in the uk? I know two hospitals in the north where you'd be taken seriously.

Cyee Wed 06-Jan-10 12:36:19

Hi everyone and welcome Needaloofast,

It's definitely worth seeing your GP in my opinion. Needing the loo asap, or 'urge incontinence' as it's sometimes known is something I also suffered from before my repair op. I don't think it was the fistula causing it, just weakened pelvic floor muscles and also a damaged sphincter. Hopefully your GP will refer you both to specialists (probs colorectal and maybe gynae though my gynae was clueless and it was her that referred me to colorectal) and a womens health physio. As above the physios can do things like Biofeedback which I also had and found really helpful (it's like a machine that measures the quality of your pelvic floor efforts). At the end of the day having a tip top pelvic floor is a good thing regardless of what the specialists end up doing/thinking.

I too am appalling at doing pelvic floor exercises which is outrageous considering I'm such an evangelist on here about them! Let me share a cautionary tale with any of you who are/may plan more children. I get awful morning sickness and I didn't realise the state of my pelvic floor until I was pg again. My morning voms were made all the more awful by having to stand over the loo on a towel because the force of puking made me wee a little, no matter if I peed first. So that made me do them again.. though I confess I'm currently lapsed. Clench ladies!!

On the subject of future births, I am 4 weeks and 1 day away from a c-section. I'm having a section to prevent my repair op being reversed by a vaginal labour. I was given the option of waiting until I finished having a family to have the repair, but I wasn't prepared to live with the symptoms (urge incontinence, uncontrollable wind etc.) for years. Like you guys, I have a job to do that would be difficult/impossible/humiliating to conduct with these types of symptoms. My consultant didn't feel that future vaginal births would make things any worse for me or reduce the likelihood of a successful repair in the future.

Now, 18 months post-op I am not 100%. The odd fart escapes without my knowledge (though to be fair this is probs poor pelvic floor). However I am, I'd say, about 95% what I was. Only very very very occasional urge incontinence (put it this way, I can't remember the last time). I have a sex life and am comfortable with my body... though wouldn't want my DH to explore my bits with a head torch as I suspect it's not quite as well put together as before!

Anyway I'm rambling. As Hulla says, it's defo worth seeing someone about it, and demand to be taken seriously. Hulla, I think you and I had the same specialist, didn't we? It's important to get someone who understands the childbirth thing - you may even find your physio can recommend someone. Mine spoke highly of Mr Kiff based on previous clients of hers, so I knew he had a good track record. Some of the others are so focused on repairs following bowel or other cancers that they don't really 'get' our issues and may even think we're fine in comparison with some of their other patients. Wish they could live with these symptoms for a while to give them another perspective.

Hope this covers some of the questions that have been asked. Ask again if not!

Take care all

Irishchic Wed 06-Jan-10 22:13:13

Hi Hulla
Thanks for that advice. I will look in to that, I am in Northern Ireland, and I went to see a guy in Craigavon, supposedly one of the best, but I think it would be worth getting a second opinion. The problem is described as mild, but it troubles me a little bit every day of my life, so from that point of you, I am always aware of it, and feel less of a woman because of it. For instance, I would never EVER let my DH go down on me any more becuase of the disgust I feel for my problem, and the face that I am never sure that it will be completely clean down there.

We still have a sex life, but it is much diminished in terms of positions etc as I tend to just favour missionary mostof the time nd being on top the odd time.

It is impossible to explain this to my DH becuase I worry that he would be turned off altogether. He knows about my problems but I think prefers for me not to discuss it with him in much detail becuase it is a sure fire passion killer.

What is this interstim trial I have read about on here? And would you recommend trying the bulking agent thing despite what happened to you with it?

Irishchic Wed 06-Jan-10 22:19:10

Ellaeleven, just read your post and thanks for that, I will persist in getting further help, it's often the way that you have to go to a few docs before someone takes it seriously. And I will keep you posted and also hope that you get the help and treatment that you need. Best of

Cyee Thu 07-Jan-10 09:34:04

Nikita09 - completely know what you mean in the passion stakes. Sharing feels like the right thing to do but Jeez if we can't feel ok about it, how the heck are our DHs meant to? I was the same in terms of never feeling clean. To be honest I'm still a weeee bit funny about oral but find that red wine helps
Wishing you all the best with a second opinion. I'm originally from NI so know there's not masses of choice about specialists, so it may be that you want to see the person in Craigavon again and tell them that his counsel isn't stacking up with your research and would it be possible for him to discuss your case with some other colleagues, maybe in England. Edward S Kiff at Wythenshawe Hospital in Manchester was my consultant and he seems to have built up a bit of a rep for childbirth related injuries. His researchers are currently running a project with pg women in the area to assess their arse (sorry!) function before childbirth (first babies only) to see if they can id any trends/issues with the problems some people face after birth. I am intrigued to know how many perfectly healthy women volunteered for the anal probe!!!
Take care

DMCT Thu 07-Jan-10 14:24:33

Hulla, I had my secondary repair 5 months after having my baby, and still have slight staining, all else in that dept is fine. But i am half afraid of getting the bulking agent thing done - just in case as you said it could cause other problems. I have enough to deal with at the mo. So not quite sure wot to do.

Having difficulity doing the electrostimulation thing with the physio - really would prefer less interference!!!
CYEE you said you thought it worked well for you? Did you have the kinda symptoms I have now or different?

Nikita09, I also live in NI, I had my baby in England and had my ops done over there but have since moved back. I used this thread alot at the start. My physio here said there is one good a-r surgeon in Belfast, i am still going to cross the water to see the guy i saw in Leeds. My gynae is in Derry.

Anyway lil man waking up, must rush...

Cyee Thu 07-Jan-10 17:34:51

Is it biofeedback you're doing with the physio? Where you put in a probe (to vagina) and 'squeeze to order'? It was a bit like a gym machine with different levels of difficulty etc.? If yes, then I know what you mean about the interference. Ours had a portable one (called a Ferraris) I think (cue jokes about Ferrari cars!) that I was able to take home and do myself. I confess I was a bit lax about that, but it was great to have the option of doing it in private. In terms of symptoms, mine were around urge incontinence, difficulty wiping clean, controlling wind - so really just a crap pelvic floor. My op sorted a lot of that out, but am sure that going into the op with a stronger pelvic floor helped. Does this help? Ask away with the questions!

DMCT Fri 08-Jan-10 13:46:42

Hi Cyee,
Yes biofeedback, but the probe is in the bum/anus (I havent done it yet as every time i go in i chicken out. Cant do it vaginally, due to vaginismus.

My problem now is wiping clean. After i go to the loo #2,I wipe, i think i am clean then go back an hr or so later and Im not clean. My op sorted out the urge incontinence & wind etc. But this is the last remaining prob (well in the back dept anyway). And its pretty annoying as you never know if you are clean or not - sometimes i think i am and i check - and im not. There's no real way of knowing. Its a serious prob when it comes to getting any way intimate (NOT SEX as you know)but any way close as i have to leg it to the toilet to check and then well you know.

Thanks for the info

Hulla Fri 08-Jan-10 14:17:26

My surgeon is in Leeds DMCT - Mr Jayne, he's very good, good reputation and has been prepared to help when the gynae dept at the same hospital just wanted to send me home to get on with it.

I think the bulking agent would have been great if my internal damage wasn't as severe as it is. I have nothing but a feeling to back this up but I think an awful lot of BA was used and so it was more likely to shift and cause problems. I have a 1.5x1.5cm lump of it settled in my vagina which makes sex painful but also causes general pain, especially if I have been sitting for a while. It also hasn't done much for flatus but definately has helped urge. On balance, I'd probably recommend trying it. I was more sore afterwards than I expected and wished I'd be able to stay overnight and get the good drugs but I am still co-sleeping & bf 11 month old dd so I had to go home. I understand it is absorbed by the body over time so its temporary.

And yes! on the sex stuff. The bulking agent makes sex pretty painful but oral stuff makes me panic because of my lack of control. Even if dh cuddles upto my back in bed, the pressure of his pelvis on my bum (& bulking agent) hurts me.

Nikita Interstim is sacral nerve stimulation.. I cant find the info for faecal continence but I think the priciple is the same.

DMCT Fri 08-Jan-10 22:53:15

hi Hulla, that really worries me, I dont know if i can take any more pain - i know it sounds wimpish but god are there no miracles out there??wink

My surgeons are also in Leeds - Mr Sagar (AR)and Ms Langdon (Gynae), and i do have faith in them, and they have done me some serious justice - i am so so so much better than before. Its just this last hurdle, i want to get the back area sorted but dont want it to cause the front any more pain/discomfort as I am having alot of probs in that dept. Anatomically my vagina etc are all supposedly fine, a bit too tight according to the gynae i am seeing in Derry, but she said the repair there was also very good and she wouldnt do/have done anything differently.

I have read back as far as i can to see what happened to you Hulla. Where did you have you baby? I had mine in Harrogate, 4th degree tear; combined op 5 months later with the two consultants above. ms Langdon was # really good, v understanding and supportive. As was Mr S.

Anyway am on the vino and am getting confused as to what im talking about. Will be telling you life story yet - better sign off. Cheers grin

Cyee Mon 11-Jan-10 16:42:02

Hi all,
DMCT I am a bit clueless about vagnisimus, is it something they can't do anything about? Just what you bloody need eh?
Glad you have good consultants at home and over in Leeds, it makes all the difference.
I've had an interesting 24 hours as have been in hosp! I had very light 'tightenings' which is exactly how I started last time, so went in to get checked out, esp as I'm only 35+3. This morning they decided it is probably a UTI (I keep wanting to type STI..! As if!). So I'm home and on antibiotics. As we all know, I'm having a planned section and was most concerned that they understood the sheer horror that would come from me going into labour in terms of my repair. Thankfully the midwives were all so horrified to hear about my fistula that they got the picture! Interestingly they said that they use my repair consultant (colotrectal plus general surgery) do 'do' their 3rd degree tears. Lucky ladies. I think that helped too, as they clearly know/rate him and wouldn't want to piss him off by having to send me back! Anyway, keep your fingers crossed that this little one stays in for a few more weeks. I've had the course of steroids nmnow just in case.
Take care all,

DMCT Tue 12-Jan-10 23:39:01

Cyee, they can and cant do alot about vagnisimus ( I think, or I bloody well hope otherwize im fecked). Some of it is mental apparently, some of it is physical. I personally dont think of it as mental, but it wont happen - so thats it. Apparently due to all the trauma and the horror or the birth etc that just the way it is for me.
Glad you are ok and IN GOOD HANDS!!!!!!! It is so very important. You will be fine, I wish you all the best and looking forward to hearing about the new arrival. D

Cyee Mon 25-Jan-10 15:10:32

Hi everyone, Just a quickie to say hello and find out how you're all doing. Any treatments, appointments, updates?
All fine here. Baby has stayed in (so far!) and I have started mat leave - hurray!
DMCT, sorry if I should already know this, but have you had counselling for the trauma of the birth? Regardless of whether it will loosen you up down below, I've heard really good stories about such interventions.
Right - I'm off now to re-organise a play area. The joy!
Hope everyone is ok.

DoomBar Mon 25-Jan-10 22:09:34

Hey Cyee - hope you'll get some rest before Babe arrives.

After more tests the Consultant now agrees with me that I have nerve damage and am having electrical stimulation to see if that will shock the muscles into working again so that my third degree tear "is worth repairing". DB thinks it's rather funny so as soon as he's asleep I'm going to shove the anal probe up his bottom. He's probably got the right idea though - the whole situation is so awful you just have to laugh.

Anyone else done the electrical stimulation Did it help any? And how many sessions did it take before you noticed any difference?


flymttm Wed 27-Jan-10 07:42:28

Please let me introduce myself smile and i am handing you a glass of virtual white wine nicely chilled. my story is different from yours but i suffer the indignities you are all going through and I have never spoken to anyone who has experienced what i have. I am older than you guys, my children are 24 and 21 and I had an anterior and posterior repair together with tvt last september. Since then i have suffered from nerve pain which has altered my life completely. sad My consultant dismissed my pain and eventually after wanting to die i sought a second opinion and in the process of tests to find the source of the pain was told that a fibroid that i knew i had was growing abnormally and the day before christmas eve my second consultant, a urogynacologist passed my case on to an oncologist. He is not interested in the nerve pain because the possibility of cancer is of greater concern. The pain i get is in my vagina and my bum (yes i to have been to see a bum doctor) no probes up my bum but i did have to go the the loo and have the whole process recorded on x ray with doctors in the room. Anyway two weeks ago i had a radical hysterectomy and yesterday i was told i dont have cancer but the histology has thrown up something else and i wont know the results for two weeks. BUT my main problem is coping with the *nerve pain* I am on a cartload of pills including tramadol, diclofenax, amytriptyline, gabapentin as well as paracetamol. My pelvic floor goes into a spasm and i have seen a womans health physio but because the whole area is so sensitive she cant do much. I cry *a lot*, I despair about never being the same again, I have not been out for a meal because i cant sit down, and now i have been cut open. Your thread has helped me to realise there are other people experiencing similar issues. I am worrying my vagina is too tight and that i will never have sex again. I feel like i am a freak but i am lucky i dont have to look after a baby while going through all this. And Ceee good luck with your baby

Laine4kids Wed 27-Jan-10 11:02:50

I'm a long standing lurker on this thread with my own problems in this area and I just wanted to say - its not fair! you have been through quite enough already and now constant pain and test results to worry about.You sometimes have to wonder if you'll ever be well again,but dont forget you have just had major surgery,from which you are expected to suffer during recovery.I think this should be your lowest point which means the only way is up from here!
I know what its like to cry with despair and I have to say that I feel better than I did 6 months ago.Something I thought wouldnt make much difference has made my daily life so much more comfortable.Vagifem,a local oestrogen pessary,has stopped the burning,tearing,stinging pain I was having.
I dont know if thats any help but I hope they stumble accross a solution to your pain very soon
take care and stay hopefull xxx

flymttm Wed 27-Jan-10 12:03:08

Laine4kids thank you thank you for your posting. I am crying as i post, pathetic or what, so strange because last night after I was told it was definitely not cancer, I was told I could resume vagifem and sent dh to doctors to collect prescription. Started again today am hoping it will help and your posting filled me with hope.

Its just two weeks since Hysterctomy but i decided today to start a new life, so i am up, have put on proper clothes and am trying to take control of my life again. I am on the way up. I am hopeful.Thank you again. flymttm which stands for fly me to the moon bizarre but i could not think of anything at the time.grin

Just like to say sorry Cyee spelt your nickname wrong.

Cyee Wed 27-Jan-10 14:54:30

Hello there fmttm and Laine4kids - nice to see you here but as no doubt you know, sorry you have to be here at all.

fmttm - I think it's a great name and it's great that you're feeling more up for it today. You've clearly been through such a lot, and over a long period of time. I can only imagine all the feelings you've been dealing with around the fibroid, potential cancer, hysterectomy etc. While I know it probably sounds strange, I completely get how getting an 'all clear' from cancer may not bring complete relief when you are still dealing with horrible symptoms day to day.

I guess all I can say is that I hope you have great people looking after you both medically and at home. Keep posting on here and tell us how you're getting on. Even from your 2 posts I can tell you are a lady of steel - though I appreciate you maybe don't feel it right now. Take care of yourself and thanks for your good wishes


missismac Sat 30-Jan-10 16:17:56

Hi everyone,

I haven't read the whole thread (though have lurked on & off for a few months now). I wanted to ask whether anyone has been diagnosed as having a 'gap' in their perineum. Recently, 6 years after the birth of my youngest DC, I took myself to the GP and he diagnosed this. He's referred me to a hospital based consultant for further investigation & reparative surgery, but I wonder if anyone else has had this. Is surgery effective?

At the moment our sex life is nonexistant because I can't really feel anything down there, & though DH is too reticent to say so, I think he doesn't find it as satisfying either. It feels a bit like the blackwall tunnel! Can this get better? I couldn't bear to think that our sex life is doomed forever.

flymttm Wed 03-Feb-10 12:05:23

Hi Missimac and everyone. Missimac I am not really able to comment upon your gap in your perineum but I should think someone who watches this thread will be able to do so. Dont lose heart though because if you read back through the posts, you will read that many woman have had successful vaginal repairs.

I am now 3 weeks post hysterectomy and taking all pain meds for nerve pain following TVT and vaginal surgery last september. I must say today i feel much better have been for a walk around garden and went a bit further than yesterday. Belly still swollen from operation and dreadful wind. The nerve pain is still there but sort of humming in the background. I am a bit dippy because last night took three of wrong tablets (i am taking 5 different ones but had best nights sleep in ages.

Have not had sex since August,last night was watching film which had a really lovely sex scene and in my mind i was really angst ridden that i will never have that again. I like sex and i am fear i will never feel sexy again.sad but i am hopeful that when i have fully recovered and the spring changes to summer I will feel up to it. The trouble is my vaginal area feels everything as pain. Kinda freaky heh. Its because of the nerve pain. But the meds are working and once the pain messages are switched off in my brain then the area will become desensitised and behave more normally. At the moment even when i sit I can feel the lump where i was repaired and it feels huge. But in time the consultant says i will become `pelvically neutral`At the moment is as if I am on constant vaginal alert. I just have to be patient. Luckily dh is wonderful. I think it will be worth the wait it will be like having sex again as a virgin heh heh.grin Hope i am not giving you TMI

Meanwhile i get my final test results Monday. Definitely not cancer but have no idea now what they are testing for. Hope everyone else is ok where are you all?

RuinedandUpset Wed 03-Feb-10 15:56:41

Hi. I haven't had the heart to add any messages for a while now. Hello FMTTM, I'm sorry to hear all your problems. Is it your pudendal nerve that has been damaged? It seems to effect people differently and I can understand about nerve pain changing your life completely. It sounds like your condition is been taken seriously by medical professionals. Have you looked up Pudendal Nerve help sites at all? I know of one woman who has pain from similar surgery going wrong so you are not alone. My damage is from a forceps delivery 2 years ago and I cried non stop for months and months.
Hi Doombar, I used the electrical muscle stimulator. It didn't help me but hopefully it might work for you. It is very difficult to use it as it is so invasive and alien but if it works it will be worth it. It was most upsetting for me because I couldn't feel it at all. Give it a good shot.

Cyee Sat 06-Feb-10 22:09:25

Hi all,
Just a very quick and selfish post to let you know that gorgeous DD2 arrived safe and well by CS on Thursday morning. She weighed in at 8lb13oz or 3990g in new money. So I'm quite glad she didn't come the standard route!
The CS was of course not ideal, but it was fine, not traumatic and I'm home 48 hours later and MUCH more well (less sore etc.) than I was post repair op.
Take care all and I'll be on here properly soon, Cyee

Jacksmama Sun 07-Feb-10 03:10:23

CONGRATULATIONS sweetheart!! I'm so glad your section went well. I've been watching for your announcement... so glad you're well and happy, can't wait to hear more. And what a good size for DD! I hope everything is going swimmingly for you.

flymttm Sun 07-Feb-10 18:51:06

Dear Cyee, we dont know one another very well but sincere congratulations on the birth of your daughter, how wonderful. I am just getting over hysterectomy three weeks ago so accept all help you can get with your children so that you can give yourself chance to heal. So pleased you had a C section.smilesmilesmile

Hi all, ruinedandupset thank you for your advice re nerve damage/pain, at this stage the doctors dont think its pudendal damage its chronic repetative nerve pain. As well as a GA for my hysterectomy i had an epidural but it would not work but since my op have been taking gabapentin as well as amytriptline three times a day plus a host of other painkillers and anti inflammatories and i am happy to report that have three days with hardly any pain just numbness. Still a long way from sex but sympathise with kentmumtj and DMCT cos find it hard to accept my vagina has changed but this week managed to touch myself a littlehmm hope that`s not TMI and did not go into a panic,blush I live in hope. Get final test results tomorrow but know already its definitely not Cancer.

Cyee Wed 10-Feb-10 13:54:31

Thanks Jacksmama (hello!) and flymttm for your good wishes. All's well here and I am utterly amazed at how well I feel following the csection. At this point, by far the worst aspect is not being able to drive/lift.

Flymttm, it's not TMI at all! And it's great that while not a 'good' solution, you're not in pain at the moment. What did your test results show on Monday?

flymttm Sat 13-Feb-10 17:02:09

Cyee thanks for asking about my test results. Well good news i dont have cancer as you know but i do have a very rare disease/condition called intravascualr leiyomatosis. Some of my fibroid has spread into my veins. What this means to me as yet i dont know am now waiting for consult with another specialist but i dont think its life threatening. On a positive note the gabapentin seems to be working for my nerve pain and i have managed two walks this week but now i am concerned about long term.

Very embarrassed to ask but girls has anyone had anterior and posterior repair and tvt and had positive result in terms of penetrative sex. When i feel down there blush there is a point just a little way in which feels very small. I have even bought a you know what from Ann Summers and tried it. It hurt was very sore until it passed that point then it was ok. confused can anyone offer me encouragement. I am not up to it now but i hate to think this part of my life is over wink wink

re c section and vaginal delivery , now i have had my hysterectomy definitely going to recommend planned c section to my dd xx

Cyee Sun 14-Feb-10 11:50:27

Hey flymttm,
Hope they can so something for your very complicated sounding condition and very very glad it's not life threatening.
In answer to your question, I haven't had the same repairs as you but I know that penetrative sex does take some time to ramp up to... I also tried the you-know-whats before actually doing the deed. It was tender and felt weird, but with some lubricant and high quality.. ahem.. warm up...(!) it was ok. Still is quite tender if we don't take our time. Hope someone comes along with more specific experience, and hopefully positive as well.
Take care

Momdeguerre Sun 14-Feb-10 16:54:07

I am new to this thread, just wanted to introduce myself.

I was only recently diagnosed with complications following the birth of my 9lb 1oz son in July 2008. I had a vaginal delivery and 3rd degree tear.

I assumed things would be different after having a baby and, as a result, felt too embarrassed to mention some of the problems I had.

I am currently 31 weeks pg and the pg has been complicated due to bleeds and cholestasis. As a result I had extra and internal scans to check my cervix, during which they identified a prolapse to my bladder.

This explains some of my issues and also led to a discussion about my bowel habits where I was able to talk about my main problem which has been a complete lack of sensation - embarrassingly I am just not able to feel the urge to pooh anymore and they suspect nerve damage.

So, that is me. Am having a CS in April and am terrified, equally terrified by the prospect of a natural labour too.

Cyee Mon 15-Feb-10 16:43:01

Hello Momdeguerre - welcome to our merry band, though sorry to hear about the post birth issues you've had. I too was of the view that things were 'just different' after having a baby. Hence it was a while before I spoke to my doc, as I expected them to just tell me to pull myself together. I guess because you are late in pregnancy now (congrats!) they aren't talking about repair? Or is it something they broached with you already?

I know we're all different, but 7 weeks ago I was in your shoes, terrified of a c-section but more terrified about going into spontaneous labour and my repair coming undone (I had mild contractions brought on by a UTI and was in hosp overnight at 35 weeks). I am now 11 days on the other side of the c-section and while I know we're all different and respond to surgery in different ways, I can honestly say that I am astounded by how well I feel and have recovered. I've been for a 45 minute walk in a park (yesterday) and barely feel my scar or anything when I walk around. I'm taking paracetamol only, but not even religiously. The major issue for me is not being able to drive for a few weeks.

Clearly I would like to have avoided surgery of any kind, but can personally say that it's not remotely as horrific as I was expecting. I may be quite fortunate, but I'm an average lady (not doing aerobics til 39 weeks or anything like that!) and didn't do anything 'in preparation' for the op.

Hope this gives you some comfort at least... keep posting and tell us how you're getting on

Momdeguerre Mon 15-Feb-10 18:09:51

Cyee, great to hear some positive experience. I hope mine will go smoothly too, I hate the thought of having any surgical repair but I can't imagine the alternative either. Trying to focus on the positive - at least I won't go overdue!

No talk of repair yet. No idea what they might do for me either, they have already said the nerve damage is likely to be beyond any treatment so I think I am into the realms of management.

In a way I am just actually relieved they found out something was wrong, I thought I was perhaps imagining the problem.

At the mo I am just going to focus on the arrival of our next baby and how I am going to manage my toddler and a newborn!

Glad I found the thread, not really even felt I can discuss this with my DH.

Cyee Tue 16-Feb-10 15:52:06

Hi again,
I thought your name looked familiar and I think I read the other thread about to c-section or not? I suppose I was kind of lucky that I didn't have a choice! Well, I did in that I could have postponed my repair op until I had finished having children. I wasn't prepared to live with my symptoms though. I also have a friend who's wrestling with whether or not to have an elective section, following an emegergency one under GA last time. It's a bloody minefield and everyone has a view on it. By the sounds of it you have opted for the least worst option, which is the best one for you. Though it's not remotely helpful when the docs can't give you the real risk factors with any kind of certainty. 'You may or may not suffer additional damage'... wow helpful!

I can empathise with your relief at knowing there was a problem. I felt the same at the time... well a weird feeling of being relived and terrified/disgusted/concerned all at the same time. While I know your focus is on having your baby (yes to not being overdue and being able to plan care for other child/ren!!) it is worth saying that they can do amazing things repair-wise these days. Obviously you'll weigh up the intervention vs benefit to you, but they really can do a lot to help manage/minimise the symptoms.

Anyway, I'm waffling when I should be trying to knit a baby cardi for my SIL who has just gone for a sweep.

Take care and remember that the only person who has to be content with the decisions that are made is you. Everyone has a view, but it's your body, your future, your decision

Momdeguerre Tue 16-Feb-10 19:43:19

Thanks again Cyee.

Both sad and glad that other people are in a similar position. Repair seems like a long way off, I am hoping that if my CS goes well then I can consider the next step. Am also not sure if this will be our last baby.

Decisions, decisions!

CS on the 6th April. Can't wait to get it over and hope my experience will be as positive as yours.

flymttm Sun 21-Feb-10 22:22:08

Hi, i have not had a c section but i recovering from a hysterctomy and i echo what cyee has said. I am five weeks post op and as far as my H is concerned my scar does not hurt me, it looks as if it wont show in time.

Look after your self keep posting to tell us how you are getting on . BW cocosmile

Hulla Fri 26-Feb-10 16:52:50

Cyee congratulations on the birth of your dd! How are you? I hope you're recovering well.

Sorry it's been a while since I've been on. I sometimes like to MN and pretend I'm all fine so I don't stop by here for a while.

I am 1 day post op for my sacral nerve stimulator trial. The op wasn't too bad, I was fairly terrified but pain had been minimal. The wires are linked to an external battery pack so I can't move much or I risk dislodging the wires from my nerves.

It's too soon to say if it's worked but fingers crossed.

The hospital called today to say the (lovely) gynae that I saw has suggested I have a debrief so I am going to see a obstetric consultant next week to talk about dd'd birth.

So although it looks like progress is being made I feel miserable today. The other women having the trial stimulator fitted were really bubbly and excited at the prospect of it helping them. I cried post-op because I have this thing implanted, possibly forever and I feel about 100yrs old. I know I'm probably being a bit OTT -especially if it helps. I should be hopeful & happy, right?

I can't pick dd up for two weeks which is killing me & upsetting her. I can't shower or bath until the trial is over. My back is killing me & I'd love to soak in the bath.

Anyway, I'll go because this is a really dreary post. I'll let you know how the trial/debrief go.

DoomBar Tue 02-Mar-10 10:38:19

Hi Hulla (and waves at everyone else)

Hope you're feeling better and that the nerve stimulator has helped you.

I'd be interested to know how you get on with the trial as it looks like that's the next step in my treatment. So far I've been having physio with an electrical bum-thingy which hasn't worked at all for me.


Hulla Tue 02-Mar-10 11:05:56

Hey DB,

The SNS has been fabulous so far. I feel like me again. I can hold everything in and just after a few days I have stopped thinking about it now. I used to panic when I felt like I was going to pass wind because I can't hold them in or be discrete (horrible at work or in social situations). This has changed all of that, honestly, I am so amazed.

I am also more, er, regular now which is better.

The trial is a bit inconvenient because I have to be careful with the wires coming out of my back and I can't pick dd up. Pain has been minimal, I've taken paracetamol once but that was after a long car journey the day after the op so probably my fault.

How are you? Do you feel ok about trying SNS? If you get the opportunity to go for the trial I would recommend it. I was quite frightened but its been worth it to feel "normal" again.

DoomBar Tue 02-Mar-10 14:10:27

Oooooh that's great news, so glad the trial -is working. Must be hard not picking up DD though.

I would try anything to get myself back to normal as I'm soooo unhappy - I'm not frightened of surgery so I'd be keen to try SNS.

I have double incontinence, nerve damage, an unrepaired 3rd degree tear and a huge separated abdomen (I've mentioned before on this forum that -ahem- my orgasms don't work so I know the nerve damage is pretty bad). I had a de-brief at the hospital a couple of months ago with the head of midwifery, who was really shocked at the way the labour had been handled and agreed that my injuries and problems are almost certainly down to the poor decisions made by the midwifery team that led to such a long second stage (8+ hours), brutal forceps and undiagnosed tear.

8 months after DD's birth I'm still getting nowhere with the "conservative" treatment - I feel like the hospital should be bending over backwards to get me sorted out but the clinics are always fully booked so I have to wait 8 weeks between each appointment and then another 8 weeks for the review. I know there are quite a few ladies on here whose experience and damage is a heck of a lot worse than mine but I'm finding it hard to stomach knowing that it's someone else's incompetence that has left me in this state.

The debrief was helpful - although very emotional talking through the birth experience. I like to think that I'm a tough wee article but I still blubbed. Take lots of tissues to yours...


Hulla Tue 02-Mar-10 14:56:52

of course DB, I remember your circumstances now. There was a woman having a trial at the same time as me. She had nerve damage from a spinal injury which left her doubly incontinent and no feeling in one thigh. I overheard her talking to a nurse when they turned her stimulator on. She was marvelling at being able to feel in her leg again after years of numbness. I thought that was lovely. So you never know, perhaps if it might get your orgasms working? Apparently a potential side effect is increased arousal (haven't noticed myself yet unfortunately).

I've been lying awake at night having the debrief in my head. I am so angry & upset that they didn't repair me when she was born. I hadn't thought of tissues but yes, you're right I'll need those.

I have lots of questions to ask, I just hope they don't fob me off. It sounds like you got some honest answers from your hospital. I imagine that helped?

Dh is really angry and I am worried that he'll shout and swear. I know he has a right to be upset so I haven't mentioned anything to him. Did you go with someone DB?

Can you ask your doctor for trial of SNS anyway? It is obviously more expensive than the conservative measures they try first but in terms of feeling like the person I was before it's a million times better. I just hope the hospital agree and let me have the permanent implant now.

DoomBar Tue 02-Mar-10 17:02:54

I had lots of questions for my debrief too so think about what you want to know and write it all down beforehand because it'll be emotional and you may forget to ask something important. I didn't take Mr Doombar with me to the meeting, instead I got someone from the Patient Liason Service (also known as PALS) to come with me as I wanted to have support from someone that knew the history of my case but wasn't emotionally involved. The PALS officer was fab so I'd recommened checking if your hospital has a PALS and speaking to them first.

If Mr Hulla comes with you, really try to stay calm and focused and not get angry.
I was expecting them to fob me off at my de-brief, but after having read my notes I don't think there was any way they could have justified my treatment and so basically held their hands up and said 'oops, sorry - we really f!cked up here'.


kalantha Wed 24-Mar-10 19:43:22

Reading these posts makes me feel so sad, and so frustrated for you. I was very fortunate with my three deliveries, and I find the accounts of the mismanagement you've all had is heartbreaking.
I've only quite recently found out about obstetric fistula, and I'm walking 35 miles barefoot to raise money for the fistula hospital in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia
please donate if you can- they don't have an NHS to help
It seems maybe a support network for women with obstetric injuries is needed for UK mums as well. Anyway, I wish you all the best.

flymttm Sun 28-Mar-10 20:08:58

Hi everyone. flymttm here. Feel so very very depresses. Still have significant neruropathic pain, still taking truck load of meds which have made me so constipated I had to TMI manually excavate myself. Now have piles. Dont think i will ever get better, losing hope of a normal life. Tried with a gadget from Ann Summers bits seem to work (huge relief) but its brought on all this pain. Hysterectomy has sent me into menopause suddenly and flushes are terrible. Cant take hrt cos of benign growths and intravascual blah blah blad. Really losing my grip. crying all the time, feel so exhausted , have no life. Been trying to avoid anti deps. Driving OH away. I am so sad. Has anyone out there got nerve pain in their pelvic floor. I feel like a freak

Laine4kids Sun 28-Mar-10 22:42:27

why are you so desperate to avoid anti depresants?It sounds like you need some help coming to terms with all this,maybe councelling?You sound so low,please see your gp and tell him you're not coping.
take care.x

RuinedandUpset Mon 29-Mar-10 09:15:50

Hi flymttm, I have chronic pelvic pain so I can understand what you are going through to a certain extent. I don't cry non stop everyday anymore.
I too am avoiding anti Ds. I believe what we are going through is grief for our losses and that it is a honest reaction to what has happened. I really don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about depression but I had to say that. Also everyone is different.
Anyway back to business...I am on Pregabalin(lyrica) 300mg per day for pain relief.(it is also marketed as anti anxiety drug). I am on it 2 years now and at a lower dose of 150mg it wasn't enough to control the pain. It took months for the doubled dose to kick in and be effective. It has helped but I do as little as possible so as not to bring on pain. I was told by many medical people that my pain may go after 2 years. It seems to be the time scale for many. Also if you can suppress the pain for long enough with drugs it may cause the nerves to stop sending pain signals to the brain.
Thank goodness Ann Summers worked for you. The resulting pain that you got could be the pudendal nerve acting up but at least it works still so there is life! I purchased one of their products but it didn't do anything.
Now for the TMI bowel bit. Seriously turn away now if this is not your problem. Emptying manually is horrible but I do it everyday otherwise I would look 6 months pregnant all the time. My tools are latex gloves (buy them by the boxful) and gylcerol suppositories. I hate it but I have no choice. I hope this is helpful to someone out there.

flymttm Tue 30-Mar-10 10:10:48

Hi Ruinedandupset. I just wanted to thank you for responding to me. Yesterday I felt so truly, truly dreadful but you gave me hope. I dont know anyone else who knows what i am talking about. I have been struggling for six months. Today i am going to the doctors and I am going to start anti d`s because I have been getting so agitated that I dont think my body could relax enough to give the medications a chance to work. My life has altered beyond recognition, indeed sometimes I think i dont have a life. I used to play tennis, run, go to the cinema go out for meals but none of these things are possible at the moment. (although i did feel some relief a couple of weeks ago and went out to lunch.) Doing too much brings on the pain again.

I am sorry that you have suffered so much and I am relieved to hear that you are able to manage the pain . I read in ealier posts girls are trying SNS is this an option for you.?

I am off to the hospital tomorrow for a CT scan for my intravascular leiyomatoses and i am secretly hoping it might show up something related to the pelvic pain which started after an operation in September. Please keep in touch. I wish you well and big hugs for being such a caring person. Thank you.
On a really superficial note, have you managed to keep your weight stable, or is weight gain unadvoidable

so much. I have back through the posts,

RuinedandUpset Mon 05-Apr-10 21:00:26

Hi Flymttm. No weight gain from drugs or inactivity for over 2 years now. Again its the same for me, I was very physically fit and had a heavy manual career that I really enjoyed (gone forever now). I too have learnt that its not worth trying to do anything as I pay for it afterwards in pain and worse bowel problems. I think I am contactable through this site if you want to try. Keep going, its early days yet even though it must feel like its dragging for you. Best of luck with the recent tests.

misswyoming Wed 12-May-10 09:34:28

Hello - I hope you don't mind, but someone linked me to this thread, on a thread I started.

I am 31 weeks pregnant with my 3rd dc, I had a 3rd degree tear with dc1, and a 2nd degree tear with dc2. I didn't have any physical examination after having dc1, and was able to deliver dc2 vaginally.

I had a couple of incidences of fecal incontinence after having dc1, but otherwise seemed to heal well.

This pregnancy I have had horrendous wind, which I have no control over, and yesterday I pooed myself on the way back from school, I had no warning that I was going to go, and I had no control at all, it just seemed to leak out of me (sorry for tmi).

I've been in tears ever since. I'm terrified that I will spend the rest of my pg doing this, that giving birth again will leave me completely incontinent (the consultant said I wouldn't be eligible for a cs) and I am now worrying that this will be a problem in the future - post menopause (especially as due to previous illness I am likely to have an early menopause).

I haven't read through the thread (will do when dcs are in in bed), so sorry if my problem seems trivial.

chocolateme Wed 12-May-10 20:46:01

misswyoming are you sure you cant have a section, my physio told me that because I had a 2nd degree tear with my DD, if I had any more ch I could opt for push for one if I were you. Tell them about the effect its having on you mentally already... good luck x

Laine4kids Wed 12-May-10 21:51:10

miss w
please speak to your midwife to ask her to recommend a different consultant that would be more open to the idea of a c section.This is what I did with dc3 and I had a c section with his blessing.
I also have incidents of fecal incontinence and I feel for you.Make a fuss and see someone asap.this is importantfor your future health.
take care

hazeyjane Fri 14-May-10 08:34:31

Thankyou, chocolate and Laine.

I spoke to a MW the other day over the phone, and couldn't stop crying blush. She arranged for me to see a consultant on Monday. I'm glad its so soon, as I can't stop worrying.

Reading through the thread, I'm shocked at how many women have such enormous problems as a result of giving birth, and smetimes the medical mismanagement of their births. I take my hat off to all of you.

I'll let you knwo how I get on on Monday.

BTW, its misswyoming here, I had namechanged due to embarrassment, but see now that it shouldn't be something to be embarrassed about.

hazeyjane Mon 17-May-10 21:44:58

Just to let you know, I saw the consultant today, she was very dismissive of my fears, and said that as the damage is already done (she said I would almost certainly need corrective surgery to my back passage after having dc3), then a c-section would not prevent further continence issues. She also seemed convinced that I would not tear again, (despite having torn twice), and that having an epsiotomy would be enough to prevent a tear (despite having had an epsiotomy both times previously). Eventually, she said that she could understand why I was terrified of giving birth, and set a day for a c-section. It felt very strange to be arguing for something which I am, tbh pretty scared of (a section), but at the same time, my fear of tearing again, and causing even more damage is overwhelming.

I have had a couple of 'close thing' incidents, which has left me pretty fearful, it is such a horrible thing to deal with.

thankyou again.

Hulla Wed 19-May-10 17:59:05

Hazy I have just popped back to this thread and not read it all but Obstetric guidelines say that an episiotomy should not be performed if you have previously torn. I think its RCOG guidelines. I will find a link...

I will read as much of the thread as poss now (haven't posted here for months) and will add more but just wanted to try and catch you if you're about.

Hulla Wed 19-May-10 18:11:17

Hazeyjane, I have just re-read your post and seen that you've got your cs so I am really pleased. Pregnancy is hard enough without continence issues or worrying about worsening symptoms. I am sorry your consultant has been so unsupportive.

I have had the same experience of faeces just leaking out in public and not having any awareness of it coming. It was mortifying and actually left me really shocked.

In terms of treatment post baby, I don't enough enough about your damage to guess. My history is a misdiagnosed tear with my daughter last year (forceps). I have had several procedures to try and repair my internal anal sphincter which have mostly left me in more pain. I am on a waiting list for permanent Sacral Nerve Stimulation.

There is hope. Try not to worry about it now. You should be looking forward to your new dc.

I will keep popping back to the thread if you want to chat more. I realise my post is a bit waffley.

I will update on me another time soon. I came looking for Doombar to say thanks for the advice on the other thread. x

DoomBar Thu 20-May-10 15:19:01

You're welcome Hulla

hazeyjane Thu 20-May-10 21:31:54

Thankyou Hulla, so sorry to hear of your ongoing difficulties. It is very interesting what you say about the elective episiotomy. It is very hard arguing with a consultant, the few that I have had dealings with have been God-like in their demeanor (in good ways as well as bad)!

I have an appointment to see a physio to talk about continence issues, and an appointment booked for 3 months post birth to see a consultant about a scan/possible surgery.

I have been very surprised, having mentioned this to 2 close friends, that they too have been having continence issues/a prolapse. It is such a difficult thing to talk about. Thank god for Mumsnet.

Hazey, do you know the cause of your problems?

I was sent for endo-anal scans which revealed a large defect in my internal sphincter. My first repair was an injection of bulking agent to act as a substitue for the missing muscle. This had some effect but not all positive.

My next "repair" was a trial of sacral nerve stimulation. This procedure was actually much better than the previous one in terms of pain & recovery. It had a marked effect on my control of wind though wasn't as amazing for faeces but still better.

I thought there was no hope for me when I had my awful public incontinence & when I've had humilliating episodes of loud windbreaking in public but whilst having the trial I definately felt more confident.

Keep us posted & good luck!

golfgirl79 Sat 05-Jun-10 12:48:18

i've been linked to this thread from another thread on post forceps birth related issues...
admittedly i haven't been able to read this entire thread, but have read parts, and really feel for some of you who are in such a terrible situation, painwise and also dealing with incontinence issues and other physical issues... i am so so angry at myself for not having an elective c-section for my second child, 4.5 months ago... my first was a very long and traumatic labour resulting in emergency c-section, and it took me a long time to get over emotionally, but only days to get over physically...

with my second child i got convinced to try a vaginal birth, and pumped full of false confidence, false empowerment etc, that my body was designed for this, that it was safer than a repeat c-section, etc etc... anyways i had a traumatic long labour much like the first time, and then wheeled down to theatre where i was begging for a c-section, and before i knew it my baby was being ripped from me with forceps....

my recovery was horrendous, i wasn't able to walk or sit or move really without horrific pain for probably 4 weeks... i was also completely incontinent (urine)... i was in excrutiating pain besides being told 'everything looked good and was healing well'...

nearly 5 months on and i am still incontinent... undergoing intense phsyiotherapy and using an electrical stimulation device to try to rehabilitate my none existant pelvic floor.... my incontinence is classified as 'stress' incontinence, not urgency.... i could handle it completely if it was like the definition of stress incontinence, when i sneezed, laughed, exercised... but for me it is literally whenever i move, stand up, walk - you get the picture.... i have been so depressed but am a lot better now, i'm not sure why.... i think acceptance and learning to manage it better.... i was prescriped anti depressants as i was having a terrible time coping, however i took one and couldn't stand the way they made me feel and couldn't continue...

this is the worst thing i have had to deal with, and i look at my beautiful baby boy and feel guilty that i am so hung up on the way my body has been assaulted.... i feel like i should feel glad just to have two perfect kids.... but i can't go out alot, certainly can't go out and have a few drinks with friends, dancing or exercising - forget it..

i suppose i should feel grateful that i am not in terrible pain, or do not have any other issues....

my partner and i haven't had sex for about a year, i try not to think about what this means... he doesn't talk about it or bring it up.... sometimes i wonder if we will ever have sex again.... i am only 30.

okay going to post this now before i ramble any more....

oh just wanted to add, i don't know anyone who is going thru any birth related trauma, all my friends have popped out several babies without any ill effect.... i don't get why it was so horrific for me... oh and also i am in australia by the way, just fyi...

DUSTIN Sat 05-Jun-10 13:14:27

So sorry you are going through this golfgirl79
Your story sounds abit like mine. I had an EMCS with my first child after a long labour.
I was told that a VBAC would be the best option for my second child as it would be a faster recovery etc. I did natal hypnotherapy to prepare for the birth and tried to stay active during labour. It still resulted in me having a fourth degree tear. I also lost the use of my bladder for 3 weeks and had to have a catheter fitted. My wound became infected and I was on so many tablets I think I rattled- not good when you are breastfeeding.
It is a year since I had my DD and I am still having physio. My scar is still painful but my consultant has said there is nothing else they can do for me.
Like you, I still reprimand myself for not having a CSection as I recovered so quickly when I had mine.
I really hope that the physio helps as it is helping me. I was only allowed to keep the electro stim machine for 6 weeks due to a waiting list of other people needing it so I bought one myself and this does help.

Take care.

Rubberplant Sun 06-Jun-10 10:47:16

Hi Golfgirl79,

I just wanted to say how sorry I am for the situation you find yourself in.

My first DC was born by emergency c-section. With my second birth I too was lulled into a full sense of security by my midwife who kept saying how much better for me it would be to have a VBAC especially as I already had a toddler to look after.

The birth of my second DC was aided by ventouse, I was given an episiotomy but still had 4th degree tears and left hospital with a catheter in because I was incontinent.

I was very fortunate in that I managed to regain control of my bladder. I am still seeing a physio for pelvic floor exercises and help with stress and urge incontinence.

It's now five months since the birth of DC2 and I still beat myself up that I didn't go for an elective c-section. I am angry at my midwife and more importantly myself for not realising that I'm not particularly good at giving birth. I had an excellent recovery from my emergency c-section but 5 months on I'm still recovering from my "natural" birth.

I don't feel I gained anything through having a VBAC as I still don't feel as if I gave birth myself.

I also don't know anyone else who has suffered anything more than a 2nd degree tear giving birth. Certainly no one who left hospital incontinent with a catheter in.

I just wanted to say that there are a lot of women out here who have experienced significant problems giving birth and are struggling to cope with the consequences.

Please don't feel guilty about being hung up on the way your body has been treated. In the first weeks after my DC2's birth I felt as if my body had been mutilated... What also upset me was the fact that none of the staff in the hospital where I stayed for a week after the birth even acknowledged that I might be traumatised by what had happened to me.

I am waiting for some counselling to talk through my emotions. I don't know what the system is in Australia but might it be worth asking for some help like this?

DUSTIN Sun 06-Jun-10 12:34:24

Rubberplant your story is very similar to mine except I had a forcep delivery instead of ventouse. I feel I have been mutilated and now feel like damaged goods. I think I need some kind of counselling too as it has been a year and I still feel traumatised and let down. I also feel guilty about feeling like this as I have 2 beautiful DC'S. One of the midwives said 'at least you have a healthy baby' and this made me feel so selfish for feeling angry about my treatment.
I hope you get yuor counselling soon, good luck and take care.

DMCT Fri 09-Jul-10 23:09:06

Hi All,

Havent posted for a long while, just want to say CONGRATS CYEE on the birth of your baby, delighted everything went well for you!

Not much different with me. Chat soon Dxx

janiemouse Sun 11-Jul-10 21:00:06

Hi, my problem probably seems quite insignificant compared to some people on here, but can I talk about piles on here? They are bad, not the type that vanish after the birth, they are still around a year after the birth and I haven't had much response on any other forums.

They appeared about 7/8 months into the pregnancy and were made much worse by 2 hours pushing out a large baby with a head size on the 98 centile.

I've had different creams and suppositories from the doctor but they didn't work, so I went and had them 'banded' three months ago, not a pleasant experience, basically they put a rubber band around them and they fall off a few days after, it was really painful afterwards - much worse than giving birth.

Anyway, it got rid of them for a few weeks but now they are back. The consultant also pointed out I have 'skin tags' where big piles have shrunk away. I can feel this tag constantly and had an inspection of it whilst the piles were gone - I couldn't bear to look down there whilst they were around. My perineum looks a mess. I've been told they can't remove these tags and I feel deformed. A big pile is poking out now and I just can't stand it.

I was told by the consultant that an operation is the next step if the banding doesn't work. I keep hearing that this is the most painful operation you can ever have and it's terrifying me - I already have a phobia of hospitals! I daren't go back to the doctors quite yet, but I also know I can't just leave them to get worse.

Has anyone had a similar problem, if so how did you get rid of it?

Hulla Thu 15-Jul-10 16:32:03

I don't know anything at all about piles sorry janie but it sounds like a second opinion might a good idea. Can you ask to see another consultant?

Sorry it's not much help, didn't want to leave your post unreplied to. Have you looked into natural remedies? Are you eating well & avoiding constipation so that you don't strain? I am probably suggesting things you're already doing, I know, but I would want to try and avoid an operation - particularly if the first one only had temporary success.

Do you know what the success rate of the second op is and how long it takes to recover from? You may decide it's worth the pain in the short term to feel better in the long term but if there is a high risk of the piles returning then I'd probably look for an alternative.

Sorry that's so waffly, I'm here if you want to talk.

Cyee Tue 24-Aug-10 21:56:33

Hi everyone,
It's been a long time since I was on here. Thank you for keeping it going, as you're all a fabulous support.
Welcome to our new friends (on useless PC so apols for not naming names etc. as scrolling around is a mare).
Surprisingly I am still shocked by the lack of understanding and support given to people with birth injuries. Surely it can't be surprising that incontinence, pain, etc. all mixed in with heady hormones is a recipe for misery? Grrrrr... I really hope you all get the support you need and bloody deserve. And to echo others, don't feel bad about feeling mutilated/assaulted - just because you have a baby doesn't mean you can switch off being a person and a woman.
As for me, DD2 is now 6.5 months old and is just a joy. I kind of feel like her utter chilled-ness is my reward for the shite I've been through. Physically I'm a bit of a sexual iceberg due to breastfeeding drying my bits up (sorry!). It means I'm much more aware of my scar. If it doesn't sort itself once I stop bf-ing I guess I'll have to go and get it seen about... deep joy.
Anyway, things are fine with me and will try and get on here more often.
Take care of yourselves x

ThingOne Wed 25-Aug-10 11:05:42

Hello Cyee! And everybody else too. Not been on here for ages either. I've had my repair and apparently I am female again. <<coughs>>

Cyee Wed 25-Aug-10 21:09:04

ThingOne - wheyheyyyyy!!!!! Great news!

kentmumtj Sat 18-Sep-10 21:00:01

hi everyone
gosh its been months and months since ive been on here.
Anyways ive tried to read through and catch up with things.

Cyee - i know its 7 months or so late but congratulations

thing one - hpw did the repair go?

me well i have resumed a sex life. The Ann Summers gadgets are what has helped me a lot. Start with small thin one and work my way up in size until i reach a normal size lol well whats normal to some is big/small to others.

Anyway i do still have a sore tender area at the back of the entrance and have accepted thats how it will be.

What made it possible for me to begin using Ann Summers products was a coplpscopy i had to have. Think it stretched me and it did feel like it split/tore me apparently they had to use the small size thingy thing.

So thats me, ive bought some of those pelvic floor muscle exersizers but am too scared to insert them lol.

Thinking of you all

Lovinmybois Sat 18-Sep-10 21:25:38

Hi all, i'm new to this. I had a c section 5 months ago, & now i'm always going to the loo. I can hold my wee in, but i'm always dying for a wee. Is this normal?

Lovinmybois Sat 18-Sep-10 21:44:48

It's worse than when i was pg

Hulla Tue 21-Sep-10 12:50:41

Lovinmybois, I would say that's probably not normal. Have you been to your gp? Might it be an infection? I have heard that there is a risk of bladder damage with cs but I'm afraid I don't know a great deal about it.

Have you been doing pelvic floor exercises? Do you have leakage or just urge?

I think your best bet would be to see your gp and explain the problem.

I will pop back if you want to chat.

Cyee Wed 22-Sep-10 16:45:30

Hi Kentmumtj! Lovely to hear from you. Great news on the action... takes me back to pervwatch days I also have that tender bit. Some day I'm going to get round to speaking to doc about whether there's anything that can help. I vaguely recall there being creams like oestrogen gel or something that can aid healing etc. Though I will prob wait til I finally give up bf'ing (DD2 is rather a clingy --boob-obsessed-- mummy's girl.

Lovinmybois - sorry I can't help. Definitely worth seeing someone about. It doesn't sound normal and maybe just is a low grade uti? I had one while 8 months pg and was going all the time, no other symptoms... other than mild contractions hmm.

Right, off to try to make a meal that rival's Ella's Kitchen pouches as DD2 has made it quite clear that they're nicer than anything her poor mother could ever create.

Hello to everyone out there...

Lovinmybois Thu 23-Sep-10 21:03:07

Thanks for the advice. Yes, i still do exercises. No leakage, just the urge all the time. I didn't consider a possible infection. I'll get to the docs very soon.

Hulla Fri 24-Sep-10 10:19:26

Let us know how you get on smile

TheBuggerofSuburbia Sat 25-Sep-10 13:49:11

Ladies, can I join you? I've been lurking on this thread and the previous one since DS was born - and he's now over 2 years old. I'm pretty sure I have a rectocele and a prolapse, missed at my 8 week post natal check, a coil fitting and a check - I was just told each time it was because I was bf! I finally made myself go to the GP this week, and she agreed there's definitely something wrong - as I pointed out, it all seems ok when I'm lying down, so why would it have been spotted before - and I've been referred to a gynae. Waiting for the appointment.

For the record I had a fairly straightforward birth. About 2 weeks overdue, waters broke, but nothing happened, so after 24 hours I was induced. Fairly quick labour - 7 hours from start of drip, and a very short 2nd stage. DS almost 9lb, but I just had a few grazes, and no stitches.

So that's it really. Even though this is the first time I've posted, I've followed this thread, and it's been so helpful, especially in recognising what's been wrong. So thank you Cyee for setting it up.

Cyee Mon 27-Sep-10 22:35:46

Welcome TheBuggerofSuburbia They seem to use bf'ing for all sorts don't they?! As you most likely know I also had a pretty straightforward birth - a great one actually. Kind of makes it worse I think, when there's no obvious reason for the injury. Hope your appointment comes up soon and keep us posted on how things go.
Really glad you've found the thread helpful!

Lovethesea Thu 30-Sep-10 22:01:47

I should also pop in then to say I have found the thread incredibly helpful as I made my decision on DC2's birth. Thank you all for your honesty.

I had an emergency forceps birth with DC1 who was never coming out naturally (head side on but fully engaged, 6 hour second stage). Traumatic labour, useless mw ignoring my instinct that it wasn't right, ineffective pain relief. Lots of bladder damage from the high rotational forceps, lots of internal and external tears beyond the episiotomy, stitches and scars. Very lucky bowels weren't affected, but the bladder has never fully recovered.

I chose an elective for DC2 and he is now 16 weeks old snoozing away here. Surgery was a delight in comparison, healed wonderfully and bladder coping really well considering.

Your stories helped a lot, I didn't post because I was fortunate to avoid the bowel issues (though sex was impossible for many months and had further gynae checks at 7 months to look for undissolved stitches etc). Many people tried to brush off the incontinence as a minor, easily fixed issue. Your thread has helped me see it is far more complex than that. I can quite understand why someone would go for a vaginal birth, but it really helped clarify my gut instinct that I could tear again badly and possibly have worsening incontinence. Especially post menopause (which I am due to get early according to my family history).

Wishing you all well for the future and hope the treatments are being effective.

Hulla Fri 01-Oct-10 09:06:34

Congratulations on the birth of your DS! I am really pleased to hear your CS went well lovethesea - we've chatted on this issue a couple of times on other threads. I had a little MN break but did wonder how you'd got on. Thanks for the update!

I plan to birth vaginally next time (if there is a next time!) because although I had a terrible tear last time, I don't feel like I can trust a hospital. I know that's very biased and unfair to say all maternity depts will be as crap as the one where I had DD but that's how I feel. Although I may change my mind once I am actually pregnant grin

This thread has given me the courage to stand up for better treatment and it has helped to be able to talk about my problems with women who understand what I am going through. You're right when you say people try to minimise your experience. Its as though it's too painful for them to hear so they say things like "I'm sure it'll get better with time" or "fingers crossed you'll be back to normal after the surgery" when you've explained that you won't ever be the same and actually, it isn't just a physical problem.

I did have an idea the other night to post some tips for lurkers but I can't for the life of me remember what they were. It seems a bit patronising now....

Enjoy your DS! smile

sneakapeak Fri 01-Oct-10 23:21:30

ok, not got time to read but....
Had 2nd baby 9 months ago - first vaginal birth.

I went to a high impact aerobics class tonight (first time since birth)and was shocked when I came to jumping jacks and could not control the weeing blush. Never happened to me before. Is this normal?

Also I have found sice the birth, im so constipated, it's like my bowel is slow and not as stong or moving IYSWIM. Hard to explain.

Seeing this post makes me wonder if I should see a doc or just get down to some serious pelvic floors.

TheBuggerofSuburbia Sat 02-Oct-10 18:41:15

Thanks for the welcome Cyee. Hulla, I think tips for lurkers is a good idea! No word from the hospital yet, I'm expecting it to take a few weeks, but I'll post again when I hear. Hope everyone is having a good weekend.

kentmumtj Sat 02-Oct-10 20:23:47

cyee - when i had my last smear the nurse told me i had a lot of scar tissue so i guess thats what the ender area is

Hulla Sun 03-Oct-10 09:36:34

sneakapeak, in my experience, the leaking after childbirth is quite common and can probably be improved with regular and effective pelvic floor exercises.

I thought I had no bladder problems until I recently found myself peeing whilst I'd squatted down to put some shopping away. I have been dedicated to pelvic floor exerciese since (about 2 months) and felt a definate improvement. I recently went on a huge trampoline with my dsis and dm - both of whom leaked wee and had to get off. I didn't but I am fairly sure I would have if I hadn't had a months worth of PFE under my belt!

I have also experienced the constipation. I had a phase of finding that I needed to go to the toilet but it was kind of going at it's own pace. I couldn't control it to keep it in and I couldnt get it out either. I think that was muscle weakness (just a guess though).

What was your birth like? Have you been doing PFE since your dc was born?

I think it can also be related to nerve damage (common side effect from pushing I think). My surgeon believes that the PF takes about 2 years to recover from vaginal birth. I find that my symptoms are changing even now (20 months PP).

I would recommend seeing your GP and explaining the problem. They may do a squeeze test to see how strong your sphincter muscles are and maybe refer you for a scan?

Let us know how you get on.

sneakapeak Mon 04-Oct-10 09:45:40

Thanks Hulla.

I did tear but how badly I don't know. I had a mobile epidural and didn't feel it that much and didn't ask any questions but they were sewing away for a while!!
I was tender for about 3-5 days then it got gradually better and I forgot all about it.

I haven't been doing any PFE excercises blush. I honestly thought id been untouched by any problems as it all looks ok and apart form the constipation, I was fine.

Im now finding since my class im having the problem with normal daily things.

I think ive done the damage with Bodypump (weight lifting) then obviously the high impact class - bodyattack hasn't helped. I just decided to suddenly throw myself into excercise last 2 weeks and it's obviously been weak and not coped IYSWIM.

Im really scared ive done something irreversable. I love excercise and was looking forward to getting back into it as ive still got weight to loose and have been miserable with myself. This has made me feel even worse.

Im doing pelvic floors now and making sure it's tough enough to make my eyes roll to the back of my head!

A few people have said several times a day but how many?

How many slow, holding for 5 type ones then how many fast ones would be enough to help do you think?

Hulla Mon 04-Oct-10 20:54:32

I think my physio said 3 sets of 10 but my psychosexual therapist said she does them everytime she's stopped at the traffic lights.

I try to do them more than 3 times a day and definately do more than 10. I do them if I can't sleep at night grin

Your GP should have a note from the hospital about your grade of tear and I would probably mention the weak muscle. My tear was only partially repaired when DD was born, the unrepaired part was found by a scan when DD was about 7 months old.

I am not saying that's what's happened to you, I think it isn't uncommon for there to be muscle weakness after having a baby anyway (based on friends annecdotes rather than peer-researched info) so give yourself time.

I think lifting is a definate test of the pelvic floor. Maybe ask your gym if they think the classes are ok if you have a weakened pelvic floor?

Will check on the PFE for you this week smile

sneakapeak Tue 05-Oct-10 14:22:14

Thanks Hulla x

Hulla Wed 06-Oct-10 16:42:54

This is about the best advice on pfe I have found.

I use the pee test to see if I am improving (couldnt stop mid-flow a few months ago but can now) but it isn't recommended to do PFEs whilst peeing.

I think this should help the constipation and bladder control.

Enjoy! x smile

DoomBar Mon 11-Oct-10 20:24:54

Questions for Hulla (and anyone else that might know)

when did you first notice that you could stop wee mid-flow? I still can't 16 months post-birth; exercises (with electronic stimulation) haven't made any difference. If I squeeze as hard as I can (look out, TMI...) and put my finger in I can't feel anything moving. At all. Orgasms haven't returned either.

Really really hoping that my nerve damage isn't permanent - am having tests on my sacral/pelvic nerves quite soon. I don't know what I'll do if it's not good news. Can anything be done for stress/urge incontinence in the presence of permanent nerve injury? Who is the best specialist to get referred to?

Bit depressed this week. Have a cold so every time I sneeze, cough or blow my nose I pee (and once the seal has gone it doesn't stop). Not fun.


whenskiesaregrey Mon 11-Oct-10 21:39:07


I have been wanting to post on this thread for about 6 months, but have been putting it off hoping that if I avoided the problem it might go away. Obviously not going to happen...

I cannot bring myself to go to my GP. I just can't bear the thought of being examined, very petty I know. Especially when I think there is a problem.

I had DS 15 months ago. I was induced at +10, and had a very fast labour (3 hours from waters being broken and being put on the drip). Don't remember much about the birth itself, as it was such a whirlwind, but I do remember the MW saying to me 'don't worry, you're stretching' when DS was crowning. But, I do remember feeling a kind of 'pop' when the midwife pulled his shoulders out. He was 8lb 6.5ozs born, so just slightly bigger than average I suppose. I had a 2nd degree tear, which had to be confirmed by 3 different Doctors, as they couldn't agree 100% as to whether it was 2nd or 3rd degree. At one point I remember one Dr turning to another and saying 'but what about this?' and the other Dr saying 'Oh thats just pelvic floor' hmm

I felt okay after the birth, and thought I had got away without any real damage. So, in a stupid act of rediculous bravado, I went on a bucking bronco 4 weeks after having DS (OMG this sounds rediculous!). I am so damn stupid, and I think I have probably brought these problems on myself. I always thought I had reletively strong pelvic floor muscles, have always been able to stop wee mid-flow etc. So, I was complacent post-birth, and did no exercises. I thought everything was okay, until I started playing football 7 months after giving birth, and realised I have stress incontinence now. Which I am devastated about, and still haven't been able to tell DH. After I realised this, I thought I would do a bit more, erm, investigating, and it seems as though I may have some prolapse too. Looking in a mirror, I am guessing the front wall has collapsed slightly, but if I am being totally honest, I dont really know what I looked like before? I didn't make a habit of looking IYKWIM! Also, it feels as though my cervix is maybe a fingers-length away from the opening of my vagina. When I use a tampon, I can feel it pressing against it.

We are going to start TTC #2 soon, but I am really worried what damage I might end up doing to myself. I don't feel like I have got anyone I can speak to about this. None of my close friends have had babies, and I am not a very open person anyway; I can't talk to Mum or DH about it. All DH knows is that I have 'some issues' with my post baby body that are getting me down (my words, not his).

Do you think I could resolve these problems with regular pelvic floor exercises?? I think I just want someone to speak to Argh, godammit, I have been putting off posting this message for a couple of hours now. Contemplated a name change, but know I will end up getting all confused! blush

Hulla Tue 12-Oct-10 08:53:35

Oh DB & whenskiesaregrey I am so sorry you're having ongoing problems. I'm ill today bit have to do some things for work and then I shall come back and reply to both of you.

In the meantime I'm sending these (((((hugs)))))

Hulla Tue 12-Oct-10 11:04:49

Doombar, is the electronic stim treatment from the hospital or have you bought something to use at home?

I found improvements from doing pfe quite quickly once I started doing the exercises properly. I found that I wasn't actually pulling up the muscles at the front which control the flow of pee. It takes me quite a lot of concentration to do it and it feels like it's the last bit of the pfe that I can do.

Are you sure you're pulling up all the pelvic floor muscles?

My surgeon insists that nerves continue to repair themselves for two years post injury. So you do still have lots of time to make improvement.

I was terrified of orgasms post birth because I knew my vagina had torn and the idea of an orgasm made me feel sick. I wouldn't have been able to have one because I associated the entire area with trauma not pleasure. My first orgasms were very weak and I can look back now and see that I needed the therapy I had to let me relax and be able to enjoy sex again.

I don't want to minimise your symptoms, if you say orgasms don't work then they don't work - I am just wondering if you're sure it's a physical thing (nerve damage) or might it be linked to emotional trauma of your injuries?

I think Sacral Nerve Stim seems to be a bit of a wondercure for everything related to nerve damage. I have read a lot of medical research on trials of SNS which suggest that no matter what it is used for (faecal/urinary incontinence) all areas of the pevic floor benefit. When I had my trial I was warned that even though it was for faecal incontinence I might want to pee more - improved messages from the bladder via nerves I guess. The research also suggested SNS might improve sexual function.

Will google...

See here: 37/


"Sexually active patients that underwent an Interstim® Sacroneuromodulator implantation (Medtronic, Minneapolis, MN) for control of bladder symptoms were enrolled. Three subjects (43%) felt the device impacted on their sexual function in a positive way (1) by decreasing urgency and (2) by increasing desire" (Edited by me)

I know the study says they underwent the trial for bladder symptoms but its the same procedure for faecal, bladder etc.

Apparently nerve stimulation is an area that is developing all the time so who knows what will be available soon. Don't write yourself off Doombar.

Whereabouts are you? I have been to two specialists. My current one I feel is better but he is less keen on carrying out surgery. My last one was very surgery-happy! You can PM me if you prefer? I hate putting my location info on MN.

Hulla Tue 12-Oct-10 11:58:29

theskiesaregrey I have just typed a big reply and IE crashed and lost it. I shall re-do it asap.

whenskiesaregrey Tue 12-Oct-10 16:18:04

Thanks Hulla, I'll wait to see what you say grin

DoomBar Tue 12-Oct-10 21:23:48

Have sent you a private message Hulla - my computer went a bit odd so not sure if it worked.


BoffinMum Tue 12-Oct-10 21:37:08

Hello people
I am going into hospital on Saturday for a repair and I am very scared and having nightmares.

RandomMusings Tue 12-Oct-10 22:51:29

BM I can't offer any experience but am holding your hand for a bit x x x

Hulla Wed 13-Oct-10 16:14:35

BoffinMum what procedure are you having?

Hulla Wed 13-Oct-10 17:03:16

whenskiesaregrey Firstly, I am so sorry for the delay in posting. Please don't think I wasn't bothered, I was ill yesterday and this is the first chance I've had to reply.

I am familiar with the bury-head-in-the-sand approach to health problems. I even find that it sometimes works but for something as important as this, you've done the right thing in speaking about it.

Firstly, don't blame yourself for any of this. I think it is more likely that any pelvic floor problems are a result of your birth and not going on a bucking bronco and even if they are, so what? Guilt changes nothing.

It isn't petty not to want to go to the GP about this. I cancelled an entire block of women's physio sessions because she told me she wanted to insert a finger into my vagina and check that I was doing pelvic floor exercises properly. It was too soon after DD's birth and I felt sick at the thought of being touched.

It sounds like you're quite an active person and you're finding the leakage embarrassing and limiting. You know that means you have to seek help don't you?

If you don't feel like you can talk to anyone in RL about it then don't stress about that. You can always talk here.

I decided I would hint at my problems to a couple of friends to test the water for their reaction. Both told me that they had faecal urge incontinence (On aged 40, had 4th degree tear mid-30s and one aged 28 who'd had a CS). The friend who had the tear said it was a relief to find someone who understood.

I think PFEs can help with all of the things you mention. Yoga and pilates are supposed be good for pelvic floor strength.

You should get confirmation rather than rely on self-diagnosis. I am at risk of prolapse because apparently I have a weakness in my vaginal wall. I had no idea about this but once my surgeon pointed out some of the signs I may have noticed I realised they'd been there for a while. I also thought I had some strange tissue on my vaginal wall but nope, apparently it's normal I'd just never seen it before giving birth. My obstetrician did tell me that your vagina never looks the same once you've given birth.

Do you have any problems with your bowel? It might be that you really did have a second degree tear and you've just got a weaken pelvic floor from carry a baby for 9 months and giving birth.

Do you think you could request to see a female GP? What is stopping you from going? Would it help if I told you what examinations or tests I'd had which helped diagnose my problems?

How often have you checked your cervix? It does change position through-out your cycle so it may not be as bad as you think.

If you are thinking of TTC then you want to start with as healthy a body as possible. And you don't want to go into your next pregnancy worrying about the birth or your body post-birth.

Come back and chat and I'll help you decide what your next step is going to be smile

BoffinMum Wed 13-Oct-10 18:19:02

Rectocele repair plus perrhine-something or other plus hysteroscopy plus biopsy plus mirena coil all at once.

Do I need to hire an NCT valley cushion is my big question? Will my bits be all swollen and sore for a fortnight afterwards?

I speak as one who found the childbirth thing itself comparatively straightforward - only the aftermath of my fourth is proving a problem.

whenskiesaregrey Wed 13-Oct-10 19:28:54

Thank you Hulla. I really don't know what the next step will be. I really do not want to go to the Drs. I think I am also put off my the fact that when I do a bit of internet research <sigh> it all says that for mild prolapse and stress incontinence no action would be taken if the patient can cope with the problems. The thing is, I can 'cope' with them, they are hugely embaressing for me, and holding me back, but I wouldn't say I can't cope.

What stages did you go through to get your diagnosis?

See, another reason I don't want to go to the Drs, is that it will then be on my records, and therefore, all possible antenatal appts I will have to talk about it. Any future problems in that area I might have, I will have to talk about it. There will always be the chance the Dr will say 'do you mind if I just have a look and see if everything is alright' and I just do not want that. I just want for there to not even be a suggestion of a problem. And, I know this is stupid, and it isn't going to fix anything, but I can't help but think if I am going to go to the Drs, for them just to tell me they're not going to do anything right now, then why go and go through it (eurgh, I know I sound so melodramtic now, especially when people are actually having operations, and all I am talking about is a Drs appt). Also, I don't think I can stomach the idea of regular checks. One off, I can play it down in my mind that 'just go, and then it will be done with', but its the hint of going this time, and then going again a few weeks laters, and then again etc.

It gets me down, because it does hold me back. My friends asked me to do a triathlon with her and I said no because of it. When I go out on a night out and dance, I leak. I think 'why am I even having to think about this at 24'. I think about having these problems for the next 50-60 years, and it getting progressively worse with age. I know if effects people of all ages, but you just dont hear about it. What I don't understand is that I can still stop wee mid-flow, and it doesn't happen when I sneeze or cough. I don't have any major bowel issues, although I commonly have to press my perineum to, erm, help things along? Its as though things are a bit off centre, so applying this pressure almost straightens things out?

I really can't think of anyone in RL I can speak to. If you can imagine my friends... A conversation we had when I was pregnant was 'OMG I heard you poo when you have a baby?! If thats true, I'm never getting pregnant!'. And they were absolutely mortified when This Morning did a piece on a woman who had prolapse- one of the 'just had to turn it over, it made me feel sick'. They haven't got a clue

Hulla Thu 14-Oct-10 18:33:07

Oh BM that sounds shit. I would definately get the cushion.

How old are your DC? Have you made plans for them to be looked after while you recover? My surgeon told me I wouldn't even need pain relief after my bum-op so I was amazed at how crap I felt. I ended up staying with family because DH couldn't get time off at short notice.

Stay on top of your pain meds, take them when they're due and not when the pain kicks in.

I also used these - wrap them in a flannel or something though, they're a bit intense otherwise.

The only other thing I do when I go into hospital is buy a book I have wanted to read for ages, some films on my ipod and good snacks. It softens the blow a little bit (and means I don't have to do the small talk with the woman in the next bed about why I need my op).

Good luck, I'll keep checking for your posts.

Hulla Thu 14-Oct-10 18:35:37

Will post to you greyskies a bit later, DD going mental with tiredness and general-toddler-upset

Doom did you get my email today? Our internet connection keeps dropping. Will try again later anyway x

BoffinMum Thu 14-Oct-10 21:55:08

Cheers Hulla, that's actually good advice. I think I'll make myself up a nice little going into to hospital bag, like you do for birth, with treats and so on. That should help with things. I even have a set of Feme pads I have never used as things weren't too bad after each of the births, so I will put those in too.

What else do people think I might need in it? Birth stuff without the breastfeeding gear? Do you need maternity pads?

BoffinMum Thu 14-Oct-10 21:57:22

Greyskies, I was in denial too but I have to say once I had seen the gynae I was so pleased I had gone. As he said, there is so much they can do and no woman should have to put up with things she doesn't want to.

whenskiesaregrey Thu 14-Oct-10 22:26:53

BoffinMum what stages have you had to go through to get to where you are at now though? What finally made you decide to go to the Drs?

BoffinMum Thu 14-Oct-10 22:53:11

It went like this. Smear test picked up thrush. Nurse rang me and told me I needed a prescription, so I used one lot and it didn't work. So I bought some more, then that didn't work too. So I went to the doctor and he had a look. He found a pre-cancerous skin condition called lichen sclerosis contributing to the thrush, which needed different cream. I was feeling brave this time and asked him to have a look at my prolapse while he was down there. He said there was definitely a prolapse and to go to see their lady doctor. Now I don't like the normal lady doctor as she can be very brusque, so I waited and saw the part time doctor instead (also a lady). I told her I was fed up with feeling tired and in pain (I have a mobility problem as well) and wanted referrals. So she referred me to a gynae. He was really kind, really lovely, and said I didn't have to put up with any of this - heavy bleeding, skin problems, prolapse, etc etc, and they could sort it all out with one operation, so I felt a big feeling of relief and agreed on the spot. He then told me to go away and think about it, so I did, then still wanted it doing.

Hulla Fri 15-Oct-10 10:54:35

I'm around, sorry for the slow replies. I am just nipping to the shop and then will reply when DD has her nap.

BoffinMum Fri 15-Oct-10 21:09:01

Ok people, I am officially bricking it now. Have packed a hospital bag with nice pjs and so on, but still very scared.

whenskiesaregrey Fri 15-Oct-10 23:02:25

Hi Boffin Mum

I'm sorry I don't have anything more constructive to say other than hopefully tomorrow is the first step for you to seeing an end to your problems. You wouldn't have gotten this far if you didn't think it was worth it; try not to worry too much. I know that is easier said than done. Good luck, and make sure you look after yourself and take time to recover x

Thank you for talking through your stages before getting to where you are now.

whenskiesaregrey Sat 16-Oct-10 10:50:18

Good luck today BoffinMum x

BoffinMum Sun 17-Oct-10 13:03:54

OK, it was not too bad at all. Had op, then a bit groggy for the rest of the day. Bits felt considerably less awful than after childbirth. Had morphine on demand intravenously and a catheter, which was actually a good thing even though I was initially grossed out, as it meant I could rest completely and not even have to go to the loo. Today the catheter came out and when I had a wee it did not sting or hurt or anything.I am off the drip now and eating and drinking normally and just having tablets for pain relief. A lot less awful than I was expecting and I would recommend it as an op (so far!)

whenskiesaregrey Sun 17-Oct-10 23:12:36

hi BoffinMum, glad things are better than you were expecting. Also, thank you for detailing your post-op experience too, it really helps. How much longer do you have to stay in for? Have you got things to read/do to help pass the time?

BoffinMum Mon 18-Oct-10 17:32:17

Home now - was in hospital 2 nights. Feeling post-operative and too out of it to do much, tbh. Family noisy and eldest son being brattish and attention seeking. Wish I had stayed in!

shhrep77 Wed 27-Oct-10 21:11:32

Hi everyone - I am not sure where to post this because I do not want to be insensitive to other people's problems whereas mine is mostly 'cosmetic'.

I had forceps and third degree tearing 2 months ago - so far so good. I have urgency for needing to do a poo but that seems to be decreasing and i have the pelvic floor clinic soon to make sure things are OK. Apart from the tearing I got massive piles from pushing trying to pre-empt the forceps.The piles are gone but the skin is not.So I guess i have anal skin tags? No where can I find any info on whether this skin will go on its own or will I have to request surgery? I have asked my GP but she didn't seem to really take on board that I find it a problem - I find it takes ages to wipe clean and it just looks awful and feels weird.

Anyway - sorry if this is a hijack of sorts and that I am just venting and I don't want anyone to think I am not acknowledging that other posters have really been through the wars and my issues are minor in comparison...

Hulla Thu 28-Oct-10 14:12:54

Not a hijack shhrep, all sounds relevant to me.

Whenskiesaregrey & boffinmum - sorry for the appallingly long absence. RL got in the way.

I have asked DH to occupy DD this evening whilst I come back and respond to all of your posts.

Hulla Thu 28-Oct-10 20:06:40

Oh whenskies you sound so low. Do you think you could handle some counselling? I found a counsellor who helped me hugely with my feelings towards my body.

I understand what you're saying, I still find examinations upsetting. I generally am very quiet on the way to the hospital and a bit teary afterwards. I go because I am more scared of the alternative.

Ok, do you feel like leaking when you dance or opting out of activities is easier to live with than hospital appointments? I don't say that to sound funny, I mean it. If it is, then stay as you are. The only thing I would say is they may not do anything surgical for prolapse but they can refer to women's health physio and you can always stop treatment if you feel it's getting too much.

And don't feel compelled to tell anyone in real life if you don't feel comfortable. I found that talking on MN was enough for me. However, I think you should still post here and talk, if you find it helpful.

Someone gave me this link for prolapse advice. There is a forum and lots of articles and I think the site is run by a woman who has her own book and dvd so you could always check that out first?

I am sorry I have taken ages to reply, your posts and BoffinMums posts have been on my mind but we're going through some tricky times in the Hulla household so getting time to post proper replies on here has been difficult.

How are the pelvic floor exercises going? Any improvement?

Hulla Thu 28-Oct-10 20:10:11

BoffinMum How are you getting on post-op? I hope you're recovering nicely. It sounds like your op went well. Did you need the NCT doughnut cushion in the end?

Let us know how you're doing. It'll be lovely to add another success story to the thread smile

Hulla Thu 28-Oct-10 20:21:16

Hi Schhrep! Congratulations on the birth of your dc!

Two months is not very long in terms of recovery from a tear. I would imagine you'll continue to improve (including the wipe - I think that's usually due to weak sphincter muscles). It can take up to 2 years to recover properly so you have lots of time for things to get better - although if you feel they aren't then don't wait 2 years to see your GP.

Specifically on the tags though, I don't know if they're contributing to the wiping problem but the fact that they are bothering you is reason enoough to ask about treatment IMO.

I had a friend who had these after her DS was born last year and she had them surgically removed without problem.

Can you book another appointment with your GP or see someone else at the practice and rather than going in and asking what they thing, tell them that you'd like them removed if possible?

If they the refer you to a hospital make sure you ask what the risks are of having them removed - I don't know if there are any, it just makes sense to know this before having any treatment.

Similarly, if they refuse to refer you - ask why not.

Sorry, my advice is a bit vague, it's not my area of expertise.

Good luck, will you come back and let us know how you get on?

Doombar I have emailed you again - sorry, the last one didn't send I don't think. This one makes up for it (size-wise!).

shhrep77 Tue 02-Nov-10 21:28:28

Hulla, thank you so much for taking the time to reply - I really appreciate it and I think you are doing a marvelous job with this particular support thread.

I will give it a bit more time and see if things tighten up and yes I will let you know if I have an op. Thanks again.

magbob Sat 06-Nov-10 14:26:36

I've been reading through these messages and I have so much sympathy for Mums facing surgery and dealing with the consequences or birth injuries. I had a fourth degree tear after my 2nd child. After a birth with no pain relief, I had to have an epidural and spend ages in the operating theatre being stitched up. This is where my luck changed. The surgeon had just come back from a conference about 3rd and 4th degree tears! Many nurses, when checking me in the following days, commented on how neat the repair was. I was given lots of follow up appts and advice but, touch wood, 7 years later no symptoms. I thank my lucky stars that I was treated by that particular doctor. Perhaps my experience shows just how important up to date training is for the doctors.

Odysseus Sat 06-Nov-10 16:34:15

Hello ladies! I've just posted in the Childbirth thread, but I think this is where I'm meant to be.

Incontinence anyone? And if I get told that either (a) drink less water (b) or just do my pelvic floors by one more health professional I think I'm going to scream!!!! grin

JBsmama Sun 14-Nov-10 21:21:21

Hi everyone, I haven't been on this thread for aaaaaaaaages - was very active on the first one started by Cyee because I was having lots of problems but they mostly resolved after my internal repair op in Feb 2009.

I apologize because I have not had time to read back - just found this thread on my "watch" list though and thought I'd pop in.

I actually just had a second repair op this past Monday, this one for the external issues. The internal repair was a wedge resection, which took out a mass of scar tissue inside my vagina, and to repair part of the pelvic floor muscle which tore during DS's forceps delivery and was somehow "missed" when I was stitched up by the MW and OB (pair of fuckwits).
I had some external problems left, one of which was that I had a massive haematoma inside my right labia so it was the size of a plum. shock Once the haematoma had been drained, I was left with an elephant ear-sized labia, which had, of course, been cut when they did the episiotomy to get the forceps in. This had not actually been stitched, so I had this elephant ear and a flap at the bottom hmm. You can imagine how comfortable that was... I pushed and pushed to have it repaired, it was acknowledged to need doing but our surgical wait lists for that sort of thing are as long as yours (I live in Canada) so I finally went private. I have my post-op appointment Tuesday and am very curious to ask the surgeon what actually needed doing because I feel really stitched up

For whoever asked about left-over skin tags from haemorrhoids, they do eventually shrink. Mine were the size of cherries right after DS's birth, then I was left with flappy tags and now (DS is 2.9) they're pretty much gone. I did find wiping an issue, or rather, getting completely clean, so I started squirting a nice cooling aloe gel on the toilet paper to wipe with. Water-soluble, s