Attitudes to food and feeding with babies, encouraging healthy eating habits in childhood and adulthood...

[hub2dee]

I started a thread the other day about dd (16 months) dropping food . Some interesting comments about whether you address the behaviour / ignore it etc came out. One of those posts: "[I] generally try to make very little comment about food and eating as I don't want to encourage overeating for praise" (by Mawbroon) I thought was particularly interesting as we're often praising dd for 'eating well' (trying to taste unusual foods, doing fab finger-pincer cuteness on a plate of peas etc., holding a spoon or fork and managing to get stuff in her mouth, etc. ), and, whilst I appreciate this isn't quite in the realm of "good girl, you ate your brocolli which is good but you shouldn't have too much cake because it's bad, bad, bad" , I was wondering if anyone else might like to discuss how one encourages healthy eating 'for life' IYSWIM...

dw and I are both overweight, and are keen to avoid instilling unhealthy eating patterns on dd (whether consciously or sub-consciously), so it would be interesting to get other people's feedback on this topic generally, or on specifics such as:

1. If there are foods such as cake / sweets / crisps / chocolate in your home / at a party / famly dinner etc. would you eat them, would you allow your toddler to eat them, would you attempt to limit what they ate of these foods (ie. saying 'that's enough' before they've chosen to stop, by saying 'that's not allowed' or by only allowing it only after their main course IYSWIM) ?
   
   
2. Should you praise / encourage children to taste different foods (particularly new / unusual food), or just allow them to discover / not discover what is available.
   
   
3. Should you do the "do you want one more bit before I take it away now you seem to be finished" thing ? (I do this !)
   
   FWIW, If dd is not minded to eat at a particular mealtime I never worry, I let her eat as much as she wants and she stops when she wants, and she gets snacks between meals if she seems hungry / points at fruit etc. / I remember / stuff is available... we don't particularly 'schedule' snack times. (Meals too tend to be around 12 or around 5:30 - if they need to happen earlier or slip later we just go with the flow.
   
   (Sorry if a similar discussion has been had recently, I've never noticed one on quite this topic before).

[ilovecaboose]

will be watching answers with interest.

[foxinsocks]

Mine aren't allowed snacks too close to mealtimes (and they are way past toddlerdom but they know this rule) - other than that, they are (and have always been) free to eat what they like.

Aside from the allergy issues in this house, the children have pretty much eaten the same as us since they were able (so from solid food onwards) and we still, to this day, encourage them to try new food.

[dublindee]

I'm badly overweight, DP only a teensy bit .
I had a really unhealthy attitude towards food from a very young age and so am super aware of it for DS and bump (due in 15 days).

DS who is 21 months eats as much as he wants whether this be more or less than I've originally given him. He loves fruit and veg and always asks for an apple first thing after finishing morning bottle. As for "bad food" I allow chocolate biscuits cakes and snacks in small amounts as to deny totally will just make him crave em all the more when he's older. However, I'm the adult so I decide what he gets ATM (or DP if he's on food duty).


So long as there's balance you're fine. DS is spot on weight-wise for age and has never been what you'd call "FAT". I'm planning to keep it this way without emphasising it!

[rabbitrabbit]

My ds has been taught from a fairly early age that he should try new foods. We were walking round the supermarket yesterday when I mentioned that I didn't like mince pies...to be told by him that I "shouldn't say I don't like something until I've tried it"

[hub2dee]

[EllieChocolateOrange]

Yes, definitely reading this with interest as it is something i don't know the answer to! I encourage my ds to taste new things all the time, since before he was 'officially' on solids even. This includes sweet things, ice-cream, cake, biscuits - tho not as much as savoury, more 'healthy' stuff. tbh if I am eating something, he generally 'likes' it and will eat loads of it. I feel like if I eat something he should be allowed it unless genuinely unsuitable, like chilli. I would feel bad sitting eating a choc muffin and he is not allowed a bit of it.

I do praise him for eating his food, especially if it is a day when he is struggling. I just see it as a form of achievment as anything would be if he kept trying and managed to do it in the end. But don't insist he eats if we are really getting nowhere.

But I am really not sure about this praise/ punishment thing. When I was a child we had no pudding till we finished all on the plate. We served ourselves from a young age, so we had control over how much went on there, and had to eat it - 'big eyes, small tummy' was an expression often used. I still love puddings, but we rarely have them!

I think it's really hard to get your kids to love healthy eating, and the truth is, it probably only comes if you truly love it yourself! I am not there, so can't expect my ds to be there by 'faking it' myself.

[WigWamBam]

I've always kept foody things pretty low-key with dd, because I don't want her to end up with the food issues that I have, and I don't want her to end up being overweight in the same way I did.

I've never really praised dd for anything regarding eating; I want her to see eating as a function rather than something she can use to gain my approval or, worse, that she could use to exert any kind of control over me. Eating to live, rather than living to eat.

We do have "treat" foods in the house sometimes - but we don't make a big issue of them being treats. They're just food we have sometimes. As she's got older and more aware of food and her own body she has started to pick up more of the "healthy eating" message, and she knows that some foods are healthier than others, but we try not to let that equate being either better or nicer than others. Because we don't make a fuss about food being bad or good, she is pretty good at making food choices, and will often choose fruit as a pudding at school rather than the ubiquitous cake and custard.

Less healthy foods are limited at home because I tend not to keep them in all the time (I'd only eat them), but if we're out then I wouldn't particularly try and limit them - I wouldn't say "That's not allowed" because I think that way hang-ups lie (it feels along the same lines as saying certain foods are "bad" and eating them is "bad"). I'd keep an eye on what she was having though and would stop her over-eating anything - including more healthy food.

I try to allow her to discover what foods are available rather than pushing particular foods onto her - she is sometimes allowed to pick a new fruit or vegetable to try, which keeps her interested in eating them. I don't praise her for trying new foods but I do encourage her to try them - even just to take one bite to see what the taste and texture is like.

When she's finished she tells me she's finished, and takes her plate away, and I resist asking her to eat more, unless she's left all of her veggies, for instance - in which case I do ask her if she's sure she's had enough. Even when she was younger I don't think I ever tried to foist just one more mouthful onto her ... finishing up your food is then another way to gain your mummy's favour and I don't think that's healthy. My own mother's attitude to food colours that particular response though - my food issues, and part of my weight problem, comes because my mother equated food with love.

Fruit is always available and never refused, unless it's too close to a meal time. Other snacks are more carefully rationed. As she gets older she's gravitating more towards wanting to have sweets and cakes more regularly but I'm hopeful that continuing as we are will mean that she can treat them as part of a good diet overall.

[dublindee]

Yeah, have to say I'm with WWB on the whole don't force another mouthful thing and the fact that no food is "bad" or "good" just more available than others (fruit versus chocolate for example!).

It's something I'd say a lot of overweight parents are aware of as they don't want their kids to have the same food issues, think tho that this should be discussed more as the UK and Ireland's kids waistlines just seem to be ever expanding...

[FrannyandZooey]

Hub you might find this book Naturally Slim really worthwhile for you and your dw to read. It is very helpful in examining the messages we have grown up with about food, which can lead to all sorts of problems with eating, and also advises how to avoid giving the same messages to our children.

Her method is about getting yourself in touch with your body and finding out what it is you really want / need to eat at any moment. She insists that if you learn always listen to your body and eat exactly what you need, over time your weight will stabilise and you will reach a healthy weight that is right for you. Plus you will never worry about what you eat again, as you can always have what you want when you want it, without any guilt.

I think children are born with this innate skill but we quickly manage to distort and overrule the messages their bodies are giving them, with tactics like "one more spoonful", "you can't have the pudding till you eat your meat", and giving food as a reward / distraction for pain / upset.

I find it very hard not to pass on my own judgements and hang ups about food, FWIW. Luckily ds is an extremely enthusiastic eater and also quite sure of what he wants, so I hope I have avoided doing too much damage so far

[Heartmum2Jamie]

Watching this thread with interest as my youngest ds (2 1/2 just before xmas) has many "issues" with food, allergies aside. At his last paed appt, the words "child phychologist" were used in the same sentence as my son's name . At that time, I was convinced that we could turn his behviour around, but if anything it has got worse. We most certainly don't praise him or tell him off if he eats or doesn't eat. He is sat at the table with the rest of the table and if he hasn't touched it at all 20 minutes later, he gets down, no fuss or acknowledgment. It is very hard to know what to do for the best.

[foxinsocks]

Heartmum2Jamie - I think allergies do make things so much more difficult. I know something that is rarely mentioned with allergies is what happens once the child (if ever) outgrows an allergy. Dd has outgrown her milk allergy but will still not go near milk or cheese because for years, our message to her was 'do not have any of this food - it will make you ill' and if she ever did have it, it did make her ill (which reinforced the message).

Now suddenly at age 6, to try and undo those sorts of messages is very difficult.

It has made me realise how the messages we give to our children about food are incredibly important.

[Heartmum2Jamie]

Thanks Foxinsocks! I do know that alot of his issues are allergy related, many are directly related to when he was younger, before his heart condition was diagnosed, and some of it is sensory related. Can make for very interesting feeding times. For tea today, the little monkey had some dry spaghetti, as he will no longer eat it cooked and that was it. I had to allow him his fruit pot and biscuit as he HAD eaten his spaghetti. Thank goodness I have an older ds who is a GREAT eater.

I do worry about the effect of me saying to ds "no, you can't have that, it will make you poorly" for at least 2 years (could be many more) will have on him.

[drosophila]

I grew up in a fairly poor household and sweets were very rare. Living on a farm meant plenty of fresh veg and home killed animals. In my teens money was less tight and I became obsessed with chocolate. I have a healthy diet sometimes but often food for myself is very quick (except at weekend when I cook elaborate meals). I struggle a bit with my weight on and off but I believe it's not what you eat it's why you eat.

Most overweight people see food as something other than sustenance. Why? Well that is a complex thing. I think you and your dw need to examine your own relationship with food and decided what motivates you over the years. This willl help you address how to deal with your kids.

[DontlookatmeImshy]

Ds is only 14 months so some of this is what dh & I 'plan' todo. Of course we're not daft enough to think that what we currently plan to do is what actually will happen

At the moment I confess I eat cakes/chocs/biscuits etc but just don't give ds any. He loves his organix carrot sticks, etc, fruit etc and we can't see the point in feeding him crap just because it's there. We will let him have them once we think he is old enough to realise that he might be missing out on something as we don't want to create a chocs/biscuits/cake eating binge monster when he's older, but he won't be allowed a limitless supply.

I do tell ds he's a good boy when he eats well, and ignore when he starts to mess about. So far it works well. New foods, we offer a couple of times and if he doesn't want to know we leave it. Ds is fortunately a good eater so if he refuses something it's a fair assumption that he genuinely doesn't like it rather than messing about. I remember being "persuaded" to eat things I didn't like when I was a kid and it used to annoy me. If I don't like something-I don'tlike it, having it forced down my throatisn't going to make me suddenly think "oh yes this is yummy after all".

When ds starts messing I offer one more and say "Do you want some more or have you finished" Sometimes he has more, sometimes he pushes it away at which point it's taken away and the meal is finished.

Noidea if what I'm doing is right but it seems to workok for us so far. I guess what is right varies for different people/families.

[harpsichordcarrier]

I think it is a very interesting question and does't get given anything like the attention it deserves. my attitudes are shaped by too much personal and professional experience of eating disorders (for a while I used to represent a particular treatment centre for anorexics).
in some ways it is easy to control the food intake of our young children and concentrate on their nutrition, but at the very best we can control this for maybe 4 or 5 years? I am not saying that early nutrition isnt important, but imho the importance of this utterly shrinks into significance next to the absoutely VITAL importance of introducing a good attitude to food, the effects of which last a lifetime and have a far more significant effect on future health and obesity/weight issues than holding back on the fruit shoots.
on mumsnet (and elsewhere) I see attitudes being passed on which (IMHO) do not in any way foster a healthy andbalanced attitude to food- quite the opposite, and it continues to surprise me that people focus on the short term rather than long term attitudes. my particular bug bear is people who turn food and the eating of it into a discipline issue - I think punishing children for not eating what you say when you say it is just a bizarre idea tbh.
For example:
insistng that children "eat everything on their plate" or "eat a good amount or they don't get pudding" teaching them to carry on eating whether or not they are hungry (and turning it into an issue of control)
or sticking rigidly to mealtimes (which are a social construct and don't really relate to nutritonal needs) and insisting that children eat now because it's dinnertime (or whatever). I try hard to eat when I'm hungry, and don't really get this "it's noon,we must eat because it's luchtime" whether or not we're hungry
one more mouthful.... overriding their natural hunger/fullness control.
ALSO - v important - fostering overly puritanical attitudes - don't play with your food, don't waste it, food isn't a toy - while ignoring the social and cultural aspects of food - that eating is pleasruable, that eating together and preparig food for others to eat is a very important part of human culture and eating the same things s one of the things that binds us together. if you teach a child to be overly snooty about particular types of food, without an understanding and appreciation of cultural norms, that's not good. likewise if you teach him that food is fuel , then s/he will miss out on some wonderful sensual experiences.
if you teach him to refuse chocolate offered by granny, then you teach him that sugar refusal is more important thn good manners/upsetting granny. and that's the wrong way round imho.
Ialso don't agree with forcing a child to eat something s/he doesn't want to eat, because you think he should eat it, or because you've cooked it. I was forced to do this as a child and GOD DID I HATE IT it made me MISERABLE and for what good? do I like ox liver and tripe and kidney now? no I do not, in fact they make me heave.
I do encourage dd1 to try something, on the nderstanding that if she doesn't like it she doesn't eat it. with everything else, I end to give her limited choices about what she eats and let her set her own limits. she went through a long period of eating very little, but a pretty good variety covering all thefood groups. now she is 3.5 and she has a great attitude to food. whether she has a great diet is another question, but in the scheme of things her attitude is a million times mnore important imo.
I shall definitely shut up now...

[Heartmum2Jamie]

Harpsichordcarrier, that is a brilliant point and very well put across in my opinion. My ds1 has a very healthy attitude and a diet to match, he is such a sensible boy when it comes to food. He eats far better than any other child I know and I hope that it is something he carries with him into adulthood. As for ds2, I can only hope that we are doing all we can to instill good habits.

[Dottydot]

Interesting posts!

I find we tend to treat ds1 and ds2 differently when it comes to food - which I know isn't good, but feels really hard to break.

Ds1 has always been a very fussy, difficult eater - right from being a baby when he unilaterally decided to stop drinking milk when he was about 10 months old! He pretty much only ate white things for donkeys, hates trying new things, won't eat any vegetables (he's 5 next week), and wouldn't feed himself until he was about 3. So, we tend to base treats around how much of his main course he's eaten. We definitely do the "one more spoonful and then you can have a treat" thing - we're still desperate to get as much food into him as we can. He's tall for his age and very skinny - he always looks like he needs feeding up.

Ds2 has always been a really easy, brilliant eater - he eats anything and everything, was a chubby baby and is now a big solid 2 year old. Is happy to try new things - and even if he doesn't like something it doesn't put him off trying something else that's new. He eats a good amount at each meal time. So if on occasion he doesn't finish his food, or even doesn't want anything, we don't stress, because we know he'll eat more next time. We know he'll eat when he's hungry, so we don't get stressed out.

The rule for both of them is no treats (which is usually 3 jelly babies or something similar) after tea if they haven't had a good go at tea. We don't expect them to finish their meal completely because they need to learn when they're full - and that might be after half/most/all of their tea. As long as they've had a good go, they get a treat.

Also, no snacks after 4pm - we've found that's really helped ds1 to eat more tea at 6pm.

Usually no sugary stuff between meals, but they do have toast/crumpets/bagel if they're hungry mid-morning and ask for something.

I'm overweight and wouldn't want either of them to have eating problems - funnily enough ds1 has the sweeter tooth and craves sweets and chocolates more than ds2 (who's my biological child) - he bizarrely doesn't like chocolate..!

We often give ds1 an extra treat (i.e. another jelly baby!) if he tries something new at a meal time - we tell him that taste buds change and sometimes you end up liking something you previously didn't like. This has recently happened for him and chicken - all of a sudden chicken is wonderful - which is fantastic for us as we can now stop trying to hide it in everything!

Right, will stop wittering now..!

[hub2dee]

hc - don't you dare shut up ! I think your professional and personal experience is particularly interesting, and you touch on particular (small) details which cause one to have a think (for example the 'one more bit' thing...)

A few other points - I think depite our (societal, individual) interest (obsession ) with food, the integration of (and encouragement of a positive attitude to) physical activity is also massively important. Not only does physical exertion modify appetite and subtly influence food-group choices (IMO), but it creates an interest, and nurtures a positive attitude to one's body and 'sport' in general. I try and take dd to 'Toddler's World' (softplay) once a week. For me, it's fairly boring as an activity (ignoring the interaction with dd), and for her, who's only just crawling it can't be mind-blowingly interesting, but it's fun and it's different, and it gives her space to crawl fast, and to climb safely and to bounce on a trampoline etc... and tbh I'd prefer her to be doing that than sitting in Starbucks or just passively playing with toys IYSWIM.

Thanks WWB for your input, I know this is close to our hearts.

Will keep an eye out for that book FaZ (though tbh I expect I am quite familiar with the gist of the theories ?)

dd - share your opinion that this area could do with a much higher 'profile'. There is a consensus, for example that distraction / positive reinforcement, cuddling is typically better than punishment / being stand-offish with little ones (yes, am being incredibly vague to ensure discussion doesn't go off on a tangent, LOL), but some of the nuances of 'one more mouthful' or 'finish savoury before sweet' or 'if you don't eat your main meal you can't have a treat' etc. are only rarely analysed so 'best practice' re: feeding seems to be much, much more vague (does anyone get my gist or am I being too obtuse ? LOL)

dros - point noted (though I kind of both agree and disagree. )

[hunkermunker]

I tend to ignore them at mealtimes as much as possible.

They are both thriving.

And I get to eat more biscuits while hiding in the kitchen.

Is this the sort of thing you meant, Hub?

(serious answer to follow)

[hunkermunker]

DS1 (2.7yo) isn't keen on getting messy, doesn't like the feel of certain things on his hands, won't have his face dirty, etc, etc.

He doesn't like "raw" things - won't eat salady things, or raw fruit except bananas, but does eat vegetables in "proper dinners". He won't eat raw or cooked apple EVER. But I'm allergic to apples, so I wonder if he is too - they make my mouth itch and my gums swell up.

He won't eat breadcrumbed food, or chocolate or sweets and has only recently (like a fortnight ago) eaten ice cream willingly.

A typical day's food for him might be porridge with raspberries for breakfast, a packet of "letter biscuits" (Goodies alphabet biscuits with seeds - he loves them), lunch might be soup and toast and a yoghurt, snack of a banana "chopped up in a bowl with a fork", then dinner of cottage pie with peas, carrots, cauliflower and sweetcorn, and maybe another yoghurt.

DS2 (10mo) is different. He has NEVER minded getting messy and food frequently lands up in his hair, his eyebrows, all over his hands - he will squish anything and wipe it down his face with his mouth open and eat what goes in. His very favourite is cucumber, which he gnaws on in the manner of a squirrel with a nut. And he discovered raisins the other day and said "Mama" and looked hopefully at me till I gave him more

A typical day's food for him might be a banana, some raisins and a play in a bowl of firmish porridge, some toast, cheese, cucumber, celery, red and yellow pepper and a peach for lunch, some bits of meat, potato, cauliflower, peas, sweetcorn, carrots, and copious bmilk. Broccoli gets dumped over the side very speedily, sweet potato is poison, but other than that, I've not found anything he won't eat.

But even though they're very different, I treat them the same. They both get what I want to cook, they can eat as much or as little of it as they want, I don't make them try new things, I don't cheer when they do, just ask if they like it and talk about the shape of it, the colour of it, what it smells like, etc.

I will ask DS1 if he wants some of something I'm eating (be it fruit, vegetable, cake, chocolate, whatever) and he usually says no. I will often leave some of whatever I'm eating near him and he sometimes helps himself to it and tries it.

He was desperate to grow "cress in a pot" over the summer, having seen Pip Gooseberry do it on Fifi (who says TV teaches them nothing ) and he was very excited to watch it growing - but he didn't want to eat it and I didn't see the point of making him.

I don't believe in food being treats, but obviously there will always be some things that people like more than others. DS1's "treat" is an M&S sandwich, for instance. Or finding "red beans" (kidney beans) in his dinner. Or the aforementioned banana chopped up in a bowl with a fork. Or some Twiglets - although he's not had those for a while. Or chips with ketchup.

I've never, ever done the "one more mouthful" thing - I do occasionally ask him if he wants me to help him - if I know he's tired, for instance. DS2 won't let me help him - he has to do it all himself.

I know people who read books to their children, let them play with toys at the table, bribe them with TV, pudding - and I think that it's very easy to fall into the way of doing this. It's just not how I choose to do it - I want the boys to love food, but know when to stop eating it and not be so distracted they don't recognise the "full up" signals.

Oh, one other thing - I don't distinguish between "now your dinner is over and will be cleared away" and "here is your pudding" - I often will leave dinner on the table while DS1 eats his yoghurt - and he'll usually go back to his dinner after he's had his pudding.

I'm basically v laid back about food. I have written the longest post in the history of the world to tell you that though, so maybe I have more hang-ups than I thought

[hunkermunker]

I well and truly killed this thread. Sorry, Hub!

[hub2dee]

It sounds like they're both eating just fine hunker LOL.

As I don't want dd to grow up left handed, I always pinch the back of her hand if she takes her spoon in her left hand. That's OK, isn't it ?

[hunkermunker]

I'd use a taser, myself. Effing sinister behaviour, that left-handed nonsense

[hub2dee]

I presume we're going to have an essay now on 'why I use my taser but I don't over-use it and when I did use it is was quite effective'



Any news on O D I ? (you'll have to be clever) or on develpoments re: C E S ?

[hunkermunker]

Fortunately I'm a genius

No never heard back from ODI. Weird. Will chase, but am going to up my hours at work so I'm full time, I think - will mean doing four 10-hour days inc working Sundays (am here now) but it's something I love doing, and DH doesn't mind, so think that's the best option for now.