Is marg and vegetable oils ......

(163 Posts)
wildirishrose Sun 13-Jan-13 08:28:48

Bad for you?

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 08:30:58

Absolutely! I'm a nutritionist and I spend a lot of time telling my patients to avoid anything with vegetable oil in it, and to eat as much pure butter as they like smile

ninja Sun 13-Jan-13 08:32:13

I'm assuming olive oil is ok and sunflower?

lubeybooby Sun 13-Jan-13 08:34:56

Butter isn't great either! I had high cholesterol and have had to quit real butter. I got a tiny cholesterol lump under my eye and that was the shove to stop it. I have flora pro activ olive and in tiny, tiny amounts now.

As with anything, moderation is key I think.

wildirishrose Sun 13-Jan-13 08:35:36

Thank you Lamazeroo, How do companies like Flora get away with convincing people they're healthy and reduce cholesterol when in fact they're worse than butter?

RikersBeard Sun 13-Jan-13 08:38:53

Er worse for what than butter?
You can decide that you don't like marg or that it's less "natural" or whatever but companies have to provide an enormous amount of data to support things like cholesterol claims

TepidCoffee Sun 13-Jan-13 08:45:59

Try reading Gary Taubes - Why we get fat and what to do about it.

Am firmly in the butter good, marg/veg oil bad camp (olive oil good though).

TepidCoffee Sun 13-Jan-13 08:46:49

What they don't seem to have is much data showing that lowering cholesterol in women - particularly middle aged women - has any health benefits!

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 09:18:34

Where to start? First of all, there's no evidence that saturated fat has any bearing on cholesterol levels. The factors which most affect cholesterol transport in the blood are genetics, levels of inflammation, insulin sensitivity and liver function. And as TepidCoffee mentioned above, it's questionable whether cholesterol lowering is beneficial.
Then there's the fatty acid composition of fats. Saturated fatty acids are the most stable, unsaturated less stable and polyunsaturated the least stable. These fatty acids are damaged by exposure to heat, light or oxygen. They should only be consumed in their natural states, as processing damages them and it's damaged fats which contribute to cell membrane damage. This means that there's nothing wrong with vegetable oils as long as you consume them in the vegetable! For example, sunflower oil. Fantastic if you're munching on raw sunflower seeds. But I would never buy or use anything containing sunflower oil, as in order to extract the oil from the seeds heat, light and oxygen will all cause damage to the unsaturated fatty acids present in the oil.
And then, briefly, there's the issue of omega 6 overconsumption. Vegetable oils are disproportionately high in omega 6, overconsumption of which increases inflammation, cell membrane damage, and ironically, inability to metabolise cholesterol.
I also second reading Gary Taubes. The Diet Delusion is like the bible of fats.

lubeybooby Sun 13-Jan-13 09:24:35

So am I not actually doing myself any good with the flora pro activ then? confused

I thought that had proven medical claims about lowering cholesterol?

Thing is I just can't do butter in moderation, it's too nice. What's the lesser of the two evils (if either are evil)

missmartha Sun 13-Jan-13 09:29:04

How am I going to make a stir fry if I can't use peanut oil?sad

wildirishrose Sun 13-Jan-13 09:30:23

Im sticking to butter and olive oil from now on. Better to be natural V unnatural IMO

Catsdontcare Sun 13-Jan-13 09:34:14

I cook with ghee (clarified butter) which is a much healthier option. I wouldn't cook with olive oil but would use it for dressings.

Am reading a lot about gut and digestive issues at the moment and it's a real eye opener!!

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 09:34:50

lubeybooby I am passionately opposed to Flora Pro Activ! It's interesting. The proven cholesterol claims are legitimate, BUT due to the presence of the plant sterols added to the margarine, not to the margarine itself. Plant sterols are chemical compounds which are very similar in structure to cholesterol. They can reduce the amount of cholesterol absorbed in your intestine by occupying cholesterol receptor sites. They absolutely do 'work', but so would eating more fruit, vegetables and nuts! Throw away the Pro Activ crap, eat real organic butter, eat nuts and seeds between meals, aim for seven serves of veg and three pieces of fruit every day and you'll have better results. Processed carbs and sugar are the things to be cutting out, not butter.

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 09:38:27

Catsdontcare I always recommend either ghee or coconut oil for cooking.
missmartha try Higher Nature unscented coconut oil for your stirfries.

inde Sun 13-Jan-13 09:41:36

So you are saying that cold pressed rapeseed oil and olive oil are bad for you then Lamazeroo? I thought they were supposed to be really good because they are high in omega-3 fatty acids and other mono-unsaturated fats? There seems to be so much conflicting advice about this it's difficult to know what to believe.

inde Sun 13-Jan-13 09:44:05

Maybe I'm confusing oils with spreads though?

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 09:46:56

There is no omega 3 in olive oil. Olive oil is great and has proven health benefits; I am a huge fan. But it shouldn't be heated to high temperatures. Use it for lower heat cooking, salad dressings, spread it on bread etc.
Rapeseed (canola) I'm not a fan of. Almost always genetically modified, very pesticide-thirsty and quite allergenic. No need for it. Use butter/ghee/coconut for cooking, olive for salads, eat liberal amounts of avocado, nuts, seeds, free range eggs and free range grass-fed meats and you'll take in a range of healthy fatty acids.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 13-Jan-13 09:53:07

I'm dairy free, so have to bake with things like stork. I use coconut oil a lot for cooking and love vitality on my toast!

TepidCoffee Sun 13-Jan-13 09:54:19

Ghee, coconut oil or lard should be go-to cooking fats (I'm really keen on re-popularising lard! Such a misunderstood fat).

Agree with everything Lamazeroo has said!

inde Sun 13-Jan-13 10:06:47

Thanks Lamazeroo. I buy olive oil spread, either ASDA or Aldi. Looks like I am going to have to change.

wildirishrose Sun 13-Jan-13 10:11:58

Lamazeroo, does chocolate contain vegetable oil ? Are there any other foods that we should avoid? TIA

QuickLookBusy Sun 13-Jan-13 10:12:29

Gosh this is interesting, I always use olive oil for cooking, with a dash of butter for frying.

Just looked at ghee and coconut oil and it is very expensive. Butter burns at high temps, so is lard a real alternative? I'd always assumed lard was the work of the devil.

DowntonTrout Sun 13-Jan-13 10:20:04

You can buy ghee very cheaply from Asian supermarkets, coincidentally I buy all my spices from Asian supermarkets too- they are so much cheaper.

Or you can clarify your own butter by heating gently and letting it separate, then straining.

I love butter, won't have marg in the house, I also use lard.

Virgil Sun 13-Jan-13 10:25:04

How does lard fit in then? Good or bad?

TepidCoffee Sun 13-Jan-13 10:27:00

Yep, you can also get ghee in the 'ethnic' aisle in supermarkets, where it's not expensive at all.

Agree that coconut oil is expensive, though. They sometimes have it reduced in H&B, although you need to keep an eye on the use by dates there.

wildirishrose Sun 13-Jan-13 10:27:21

Just found this....

In 1911, a few years after Sinclair's sensational revelations, Crisco was introduced and touted as a healthy alternative. Crisco, like margarine, is a vegetable fat turned into a solid form at room temperature by the process of hydrogenation. This method also creates trans-fatty acids, which we now know increase total cholesterol, raise LDL ("bad") cholesterol and lower HDL ("good") cholesterol. These unnatural compounds may also have adverse effects on cell membranes and the immune system, and may promote inflammation, cancer and accelerated aging.

After World War II, consumption of lard along with other animal fats dropped even more thanks to the conventional wisdom of the past 40 years that the saturated fats in our diets were a principal cause of high cholesterol and rising rates of heart disease. More recent research suggests that this isn't so - a scientific analysis of 21 studies determined that there is no significant evidence that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of coronary artery disease.

I doubt that the scientific rethinking of the contribution of saturated fat to heart disease is responsible for lard's re-emergence as an acceptable cooking fat. That is probably due more to the influence of the well-known chefs who have been using it in their restaurants, as well as to recent efforts to preserve dwindling heirloom breeds of pigs and raise them sustainably.

Nutritionally speaking, lard has nearly one-fourth the saturated fat and more than twice the monounsaturated fat as butter. It is also low in omega-6 fatty acids, known to promote inflammation; according to lard enthusiasts free-range pigs that eat greens, not grains, have higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids.

Lard has always been prized as a cooking fat because it has a higher smoking point than other fats. For that reason, foods fried in lard absorb less grease. It also has the reputation of producing ultra-flaky pastry crust.

Cans of lard are available in supermarkets, but most of these products have been hydrogenated so they'll last longer and are probably not what you want. The best lard is considered to be minimally processed "leaf lard" from the area around the pig's abdomen and kidneys or fatback lard from the pig's back. You can get these at high-end specialty markets or online.

Lamazaroo: hope you don't mind me asking but is a nutritionist the same as a dietician? Do you have the same qualifications?

FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn Sun 13-Jan-13 10:34:09

I've been reading a book recently which basically says if it comes from an animal or plant naturally it's good for you, if it has to be processed in any way then it is not. So oranges = good, cartons of orange juice = bad, and therefore butter good, spreads/marg = bad.

Interestingly, on the cholesterol point raised above, the book says our bodies naturally produce cholesterol of their own accord, therefore it must be something we need. Our bodies wouldn't try to poison us!

I've only just started reading the book but it makes a lot of sense so far.

Virgil Sun 13-Jan-13 10:36:41

So then a normal (and cheap!!) packet of lard from the chiller cabinet next to the butter is a decent alternative to expensive coconut oil for frying, roasting potatoes etc? Better for you than sunflower oil.

At the moment I'm confused so have just been using e.v. Olive oil or butter for everything

Virgil Sun 13-Jan-13 10:37:18

Why are cartons of orange juice bad?

FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn Sun 13-Jan-13 10:39:19

Because the juice has often been processed, ie pasteurised, extra sugar added, concentrated then reconstituted, etc.

mutantninjamyrtle Sun 13-Jan-13 10:47:35

I've had the same advice from a nutritionist, though was also advised to minimise fruit consumption owing to the sugar content. If you are keeping starch to a minimum and eating good protein, vegetables and fats then you will feel full earlier and for longer, despite stuffing down the butter. It does really work...

UnderwaterBasketWeaving Sun 13-Jan-13 10:51:34

just to be annoying, Frankelly:

So, butter is good because it's not processed? So it comes out of cows like that, does it?! Because in 2 years of BFing I've never produced butter (that I know of!).

I reckon there probably is some kind of processing going on.

Please beware of such simplistic pseudoscience, people.

Eat a balanced diet, sleep well and move a bit and you'll be right. If you read enough, you'll find even oxygen will give you cancer.

Oh, and to add my own bit of bollocks: Bio yoghurt is the bestest, New Scientist said so!

Narked Sun 13-Jan-13 10:53:10

Nutritionist isn't the legally protected term. Dietician is. Having said that, it doesn't change the fact that the advice is sound. Processed food isn't great for your health.

UnderwaterBasketWeaving Sun 13-Jan-13 10:53:27

grin <- to indicate good humour and no personal attack intended.

QuickLookBusy Sun 13-Jan-13 11:02:20

There was a good programme on channel 5 last night. Something like "50 greatest diet and execise myths"

It did say processed marg was very bad for you. It's to do with the heat process used to "change" the veg oil. It's not good for us at all.

EyesCrossedLegsAkimbo Sun 13-Jan-13 11:06:19

I use rice bran oil to cook with. It has no cholesterol but contains plant sterols and vitamin E. It also has a high smoke point. So is it good or bad?

FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn Sun 13-Jan-13 11:07:17

Not offended Underwater grin, like I said I've only just started reading the book, I may get further in think "this is a load of old woo!" And chuck it in the bin grin

I did think the same thing about the butter though wink

Orenishii Sun 13-Jan-13 11:07:24

Completely agree with Tepid and Lamazeroo - we need good quality fats such as quality butter, coconut oil/butter and olive oil - and very impressed it's been pointed out that OO turns bad at high temperatures!

Somewhere along the line, we've been sold the idea that low fat diets are best for us - and you know, clearly it's not working!

Thumbwitch Sun 13-Jan-13 11:31:54

All you need to produce butter from milk cream is churning. It does it all itself, nothing added, nothing taken away (except you can add salt). So it is "processed", in that it is churned - but not altered chemically or by heat. You can make your own butter if you've the energy smile
Bet you can't make your own vegetable oil spread though.

Whathaveiforgottentoday Sun 13-Jan-13 11:46:48

ok, got most of this this? however, is cold pressed rapeseed oil ok as being cold pressed I'm assuming its not been heated so the processing won't have damaged it?

I tend to use sunflower oil for stirfrys as you need the temp to be higher but olive oil for most other things. Is sunflower oil not great? I always thought it was fine.

We still use lard for roasts, yorkshire puddings and butter for most other things like on bread.

TheSecondComing Sun 13-Jan-13 11:54:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tee2072 Sun 13-Jan-13 11:54:39

And there is nothing wrong with orange juice, any more than there is anything wrong with butter, in terms of processing, so long as all it is, is squeezed to get the juice out.

So you don 't want 'from concentrate'. You want 'fresh squeezed'.

You can tell because either the only ingredient listed is 'oranges' or there is no ingredient list because there doesn't have to be one if there is only one ingredient, i.e. oranges.

My diabetic dietician actually had me change to olive oil spread over butter, but also to regular sugar over any kind of artificial sweetener.

I am interested in this idea that controlling cholesterol is not needed, especially as genetically I could eat lettuce all day and still have high cholesterol. I shall have to investigate further.

ginmakesitallok Sun 13-Jan-13 12:01:47

SO - how does the advice above square with the clear links between saturated fats and type 2 diabetes??

JollyToddles Sun 13-Jan-13 12:03:34

100% orange juice from concentrate also only contains orange. And having read/heard about how Tropicana produce their 'not from concentrate' juices I've come to the conclusion that 'from concentrate' is really not any worse. Just make sure there is no added sugar.

We use olive oil, but also have sunflower oil in the house for making curries or skirlie as both taste better with sunflower oil. We do not have rapeseed oil due to a family history of asthma.

We also have Flora Buttery. We go through about 1 tub a month, if that. I figure at that little level of consumption we don't really need to worry too much.

I will buy some ghee at some point though, for cooking.

Sorry but freshly squeezed orange juice is different from eating an orange. The intrinsic sugars in the whole fruit become extrinsic and are absorbed by the body differently.

wildirishrose Sun 13-Jan-13 12:08:34

Squeeze an orange into a glass and see what happens. Carton juices have additives

Tee2072 Sun 13-Jan-13 12:09:28

Okay, I had a Google and can't find anything about the cholesterol thing mentioned above. Anyone have any links to any research?

Are they AKiss? Well then I would think the natural whatever in milk would become whatever when churned and turned into butter as well. Are they?

In other words...I think most of this is bullshit and woo and not based on anything but opinion.

Eat less. Move more. Gain control.™

That's my motto. And I really have trademarked it...

Thumbwitch Sun 13-Jan-13 12:09:57

All edible-by-humans rapeseed oil (or canola) comes from oilseed rape that has been selectively bred to be lower in erucic acid, which may have an adverse effect on heart tissue in humans (but this hasn't been conclusively proven). It is now also available from genetically engineered oilseed rape as well.

As said before, cooking with oils that are high in polyunsaturated fats is bad because they are prone to chemical changes at high temperatures. Mono-unsaturated oils, such as olive oil, are less prone to these changes; and saturated fats least prone to such changes. Of course if you heat any fat to smoking point you will get changes anyway, which are undesirable for health purposes.

As we produce most of the cholesterol we require in our own bodies (~80%), restricting consumption is fairly pointless, except in cases of familial hypercholesterolaemia, where all fats are heavily restricted. One of the things that can change the amount of cholesterol that we produce is to exercise more, because that increases our requirement for coenzyme Q10, which is an energy source for mitochondria in muscles. Coenzyme Q10 and cholesterol share a common biochemical pathway up to a certain point, where it diverges - so doing more exercise --> need more Q10 --> less cholesterol produced.
Sadly, most pharmaceutical statins block the pathway while it is still common, thus reducing people's ability to produce coenzyme Q 10 as well as cholesterol (not too clever, really).

You can't see intrinsic sugars become extrinsic when you squeeze an orange into a glass! It doesn't mean it's not happening. Hence why orange juice is more cariogenic than whole orange. see P7 of the NICE report

WeAreEternal Sun 13-Jan-13 12:14:55

Olive oil and olive oil spreads and coconut oil are the only really true 'pure' and healthy options.
butter, vegtable oil, and all of those are full of processed junk, are revolting and so unhealthy.

NuclearStandoff Sun 13-Jan-13 12:17:10

Very interesting thread.

I gave up drinking fruit juice at breakfast some time ago after hearing this, and to try and lose a bit of weight- and I think it has made a positive difference.

As for oils, I use rice-bran oil for high temperature cooking, 'light' olive oil for sweating onions etc and organic olive oil and organic rapeseed oil for salads - I am very keen on rapeseed oil because it is produced in the UK, although I only use very high quality, usually organic, cold-pressed oil.

Not keen on butter for me because try to be vegan as much as possible for environmental reasons, but do give it to the rest of the family.

Tepid and Lamazeroo I would like to know your opinions on rice bran oil and organic cold-pressed rapeseed oil please.

Thumbwitch Sun 13-Jan-13 12:19:15

WeAre, that is a load of tosh. Have you read the ingredients list on, for e.g., Olivio?
Here you are:
Ingredients (13):
Vegetable(s) Oil Blend (Canola Oil Liquid, Soybean(s) Oil Partially Hydrogenated, Olive Oil) , Whey from Milk, Salt, Vegetable(s) Mono and Diglycerides, Soy Lecithin, Potassium Sorbate Used to protect quality, Citric Acid, Vitamin A Palmitate, Beta Carotene Added for Color, Flavor(s) Natural & Artificial

Butter, on the other hand:
Butter,Salt (1.7%) ,Minimum Milkfat content 80%

'Are they AKiss? Well then I would think the natural whatever in milk would become whatever when churned and turned into butter as well. Are they?'

Tee: I don't know about butter. I know about sugars as my degree involved a lot of study of sugars. I am inclined to agree with your motto, as well as Ben Goldacre's opinion of nutritionists.

TheSecondComing Sun 13-Jan-13 12:24:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 13-Jan-13 12:34:44

I agree have never ever bought nothing but real butter, don't use veg oils or artificial sweeteners.

My aunties a great believer in lard, she did an experiment with lard verses veg oil and the lard cooked chips came out as un greasy as possible and lasted months <boak> and the veg oil chips came out soaked in oil and the oil had ran out in a week. Now I'm not advocating deep fat fryers but I did think it was interesting how the lard didn't soak into the chips.

UnderwaterBasketWeaving Sun 13-Jan-13 12:39:50

<high-5s Tee and departs for saner territory>

sashh Sun 13-Jan-13 12:50:38

Just looked at ghee and coconut oil and it is very expensive.

Don't buy them in the supermarket, go to an Asian grocer.

Lamazaroo: hope you don't mind me asking but is a nutritionist the same as a dietician? Do you have the same qualifications?

It depends where Lama is.

In the UK the word 'dietician' is protected. It means someone has the qualifications to work for the NHS.

Nutritainist CAN be somebody highly qualified, but it can also be someone who has read one chapter of a book.

Thumbwitch Sun 13-Jan-13 13:01:14

A dietitian will have a degree in dietetics and be a registered member of the Health and Care Professions Council. A nutritionist may be a clinical nutritionist, who may also be qualified to work in the NHS; or it may be someone who, as sashh says, has read a book.

CatPussRoastingOnAnOpenFire Sun 13-Jan-13 13:15:33

Why I prefer 'real' fats to those others:
About seven years ago, I broke my arm, badly. I was quite traumatised, and didnt leave the house much for 6 months or so. Over that six months, cooking and eating kept me sane. Someone gave me the River Cottage cookbook. It was excellent. For 6 months I cooked with butter, cream, cheese, meat, fresh veg... I didnt use anything processed. One week, I used 2.5 litres of double cream! When I returned to work, (after 6 months) I weighed 1 stone less than when I left! confused

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 13:16:29

Oh gosh, can I assure you all that I am a registered, qualified nutritionist with a degree! Can't write much now as I'm supposed to be supervising my child but I'll be back later to scribble some more on oils, juices etc.

JollyToddles Sun 13-Jan-13 13:22:09

So why are cartons of orange juice allowed to say they contain 100% orange juice? That has to be illegal surely if they have additives in?

QuickLookBusy Sun 13-Jan-13 13:33:03

Orange Juice doesn't contain any additives. It's pure orange juice, but can be "bad" for you as it has a lot of natural sugars. I think one small glass a day is probably ok though.

Something labelled Orange Juice Drink will contain additives.

rubyredbeau Sun 13-Jan-13 13:43:23

What about ground nut oil ? I would use it quite often for pan frying things ?

wildirishrose Sun 13-Jan-13 14:30:12

It is difficult to accept at first, but when all is said and done, the processing of the commercial fruit juices on the market today leaves almost nothing but fructose to race through your arteries.

The popular fruit juices that adorn our breakfast tables every morning (excluding freshly squeezed), whether at home or in restaurants, has the skin removed, fiber extracted and has most likely undergone the pasteurization process to kill all bacteria -- good and bad. This includes destroying all the natural enzymes that are alive in the natural fruit which aids in both digestion and other natural bodily functions; pasteurization also destroys a large amount of the vitamins and minerals. The CDC reports that about 98 percent of all fruit juices sold in the United States have been pasteurized. If it's canned, bottled or in a carton, fruit juice does more harm than good.

A study at Baylor College of Medicine found no association between 100 percent fruit juice consumption and weight gain, but it has been shown to increase blood sugar and blood pressure levels, and increase triglycerides. The sudden surge of acidic sugar (no matter what the source) can inflame the arteries, and too much inflammation in the body leads to arterial disease.

A wide variety of the supermarket fruit juices even have added sugar, thus increasing the chance of damage. The manufacturers of these so-called fruit drinks use marketing techniques that fool the public into thinking their products are nutritious when in fact they contain more sugar (or even high fructose corn syrup) than the juice itself. Also remember, whenever a label reads juice cocktail, it will invariably have added sugar.

NuclearStandoff Sun 13-Jan-13 14:38:49

On the fruit juice thing, I'd like to ask about cranberry juice.

This is supposed to have a lot of health benefits, protect against Alzheimers etc. But it is impossible to drink in its natural form because cranberries are so sour, they have to be mixed either with apple juice or have sugar added.

Also Pomegranate juice - also has a reputation for being healthy?

CoteDAzur Sun 13-Jan-13 14:45:59

Sunflower seed oil for frying. Olive oil for everything else.

That is the Mediterranean way and it has served us well for many generations.

JollyToddles Sun 13-Jan-13 15:04:32

Okay, wildirish, but that is not what you were asserting earlier.

I am careful about ingredients and we rarely have orange juice because I said already I don't like the processes that the juice goes through.

At the moment if my pregnant body wants the odd glass of orange juice I'm going to oblige.

Loads of foods are bad for you. It doesn't mean we can't have any ever. It just means we have to think about how often we have them.

Nobody on mumsnet would dare suggest that, because the physical benefits of chocolate do not outweigh the health problems it can cause, it should be banned altogether.

This includes destroying all the natural enzymes that are alive in the natural fruit which aids in both digestion and other natural bodily functions

Any article that states enzymes are alive will lose me from that point on.... and what other natural bodily functions are they going to assist with???

soontobeburns Sun 13-Jan-13 15:51:09

We only use butter due to it being more natural.

My NHS nutritionist told me to use sweetener instead of sugar. I told her this shouldnt be as sweetener is harder for the body to break down and makes you crave more sugar. I then walked out opps.

wildirishrose Sun 13-Jan-13 16:12:34

Jollytoddles I said orange has additives if you research carton juices you will see flavour packs are added.

Its better to squeeze a real orange and drink the juice.

Catsdontcare Sun 13-Jan-13 16:18:00

If you buy cold pressed juice (frickin expensive) you will see how it is totally different to other freshly squeezed type juices.

timidviper Sun 13-Jan-13 16:30:45

soon I never cease to be amazed at the rubbish trotted out by some NHS dieticians/nutritionists. They have an obscene haste to give elderly patients those horrid sip feed cartons which then "medicalises" nutrition and often means they eat less.

FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn Sun 13-Jan-13 20:15:32

Tee2072 this link talks about what I read in the book I've recently purchased.

I can't vouch for the science behind it, but it's there to be shot at.

FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn Sun 13-Jan-13 20:28:17

This might also be worth reading. Again I'm not saying it is right or wrong <covers backside> wink

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 21:05:12

Wow, I can't believe there have been cries of woo on this subject. It's all plain biochemistry.
Anyway, just a quick note on the juice debate. The problem with juice is not additives. It's the speed at which a bolus of fructose enters the bloodstream. For example: if you were to eat six oranges it would take you about half an hour, assuming you had to find them ripe on a tree, pick them, peel them and eat them. So the sugar in those six oranges slowly enters your bloodstream over a period of half an hour or so. Now, a glass of orange juice contains the juice of six oranges. But you drink it in five seconds. All that sugar floods into your bloodstream very quickly. This is not good for two reasons. First, it places a burden on blood glucose homeostasis. Second, fructose can only be metabolised by liver cells. So all the sugar from the orange juice must be processed by the liver. Fructose in large amounts, such as a glass of fruit juice, damages hepatocytes in the same way alcohol does.
Eat your fruit, don't drink it.

berri Sun 13-Jan-13 21:05:19

So what's best for sandwiches/toast then - butter?

Catsdontcare Sun 13-Jan-13 21:11:52

Tbh until I started reading about food and digestion in depth I thought I had a pretty sensible idea of what is healthy and what is not. It does make sense once you understand how the body digests food, but must admit it's been an eye opener!

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 21:17:46

berri - definitely butter. Or fresh avocado, or olive oil.

MrsPennyapple Sun 13-Jan-13 22:09:42

Interesting thread, and something I have been wondering about lately. I normally use Bertolli (olive oil spread) and am finding it difficult to figure out where this fits in on the good / bad scale.

It says: 59% vegetable fat spread with 21% olive oil.
Ingredients: Mild olive oil composed of refined olive ois and virgin olive oils, rapeseed oil, water, whey (from milk), vegetable oils, buttermilk, salt, emulsifier: mono- and di-glycerides of fatty acids, preservative: potassium sorbate, thickener: sodium alginate, citric acid, vitamin E, flavouring, vitamins A & D, colour: carotenes.

Nowhere on the packaging does it use the word "hydrogenated" or "partially hydrogenated."

I have to admit to not really understanding the science behind the debate. I was under the impression that vegetable oil MUST BE hydrogenated in order to be turned into a solid form, is this correct? The Bertolli packaging refers to "vegetable fat" but not vegetable oil. Can anyone shed any light on this for me please?

Lamazeroo Sun 13-Jan-13 22:19:22

Just going to sleep now so will briefly say Bertolli spread is crap. Throw it out. Back tomorrow to explain more.

NuclearStandoff Sun 13-Jan-13 22:30:32

i still want to know about cranberry juice and pomegranate juice!

MrsPennyapple Sun 13-Jan-13 22:48:11

Well, that's, erm, succinct! smile Am curious now, will check back tomorrow. Thank you.

Thankyou Lamazeroo for the juice explanation. I get so fed up with pints of juice, or worse, overpriced smoothies, being touted as a health food. My liver does not want all that fructose!
I don't have juice at home, but I do eat whole oranges, grapefruits etc. I also think the lumping of fruit together with vegetables in the '5 a day' campaign is misguided. I think I'm healthier without the glass of juice, packet of raisins and imported peach that could have taken me to 5 a day today.

Thumbwitch Mon 14-Jan-13 00:33:50

Thanks for those links, Frankelly. They are both talking sense (although I know nothing of the diet mentioned and cannot comment on it), especially the MD (second link). Although no mention is made of the link with coenzyme Q10 and statins, a link that the pharmaceutical companies are perfectly well aware of but choose to do nothing to address because it would cost too much.

What about nut butters Lamazeroo, are they ok?

wildirishrose Mon 14-Jan-13 06:23:24

Thank you Lamazeroo. Any other tips on foods to avoid would be appreciated.

BoerWarKids Mon 14-Jan-13 06:49:01

Hope Lamerazoo comes back today <marks place>

Bunbaker Mon 14-Jan-13 06:55:24

Catsdontcare Can you recommend any good websites. I suffer from IBS and am looking for more ideas on how to deal with it.

GirlOutNumbered Mon 14-Jan-13 08:22:34

This is really interesting. I can't eat Dairy. I know that Vitalite etc is not great, but is there an alternative for my toast!?

What do you think of Almond and Hazelnut milks (Alpro brands), I use them instead of milk. Did use Oatly, but I love the Hazelnut one.

I use coconut oil for icing, but haven't tried baking with it. Is there a good dairy free alternative to Stork!?

I wish I could eat butter, I love it.

GirlOutNumbered Mon 14-Jan-13 08:22:51

Does anyone make their own nut butter?

Catsdontcare Mon 14-Jan-13 08:28:13

Bunbaker I am reading about the GAPS diet right now. You could start there (not all the parts relating to conditions such as autism etc will be relevant you but the principles of healthy gut etc are the same for all)

Catsdontcare Mon 14-Jan-13 08:30:06

Also look at elana's pantry website for ideas and recipes

Sugarice Mon 14-Jan-13 08:34:19

What a great thread!

I always cook with olive oil when I pan fry, will look into coconut butter after reading this.

I do use butter for toast, sandwiches etc and feel quite relieved after reading this. grin

BettySuarez Mon 14-Jan-13 08:53:21

I would urge you all to have a go at making your own butter if you haven't already done so.

All you need is cream, salt to taste (optional) and a blender

Very easy and absolutely delicious smile

FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn Mon 14-Jan-13 14:14:15

What are people's thoughts on eating out of season fruit/veg? I remember reading something a while ago which suggested that those of us of Northern European descent really shouldn't be eating tropical fruits, etc, as our digestive systems have not evolved to handle them. It's an interesting thought!

NuclearStandoff Mon 14-Jan-13 15:31:47

I don't eat them for environmental/ethical reasons - always choose local and seasonal wherever possible.

But don't really buy the thing about digestive systems being different! Would happily eat a mango if I was on holiday in India !!

BettySuarez Mon 14-Jan-13 19:22:36

For those of you that cook with lard - do you reuse it again or does the heating process damage it and make it unhealthy to eat?

In other words is it then considered to be processed fat ?

berri Mon 14-Jan-13 20:35:34

betty how long can you store it in the fridge for?

Also is it rock solid after it's been in the fridge?

I sometimes go for butter but to be honest it puts me off not being able to spread it for DS sandwiches! I know it's lazy but I hate it making huge holes in the bread!

MrsPennyapple Mon 14-Jan-13 21:15:53

I re-use lard. Not sure if I'm supposed to, but I do.

Jojay Mon 14-Jan-13 21:31:29

Like Girloutnumbered, I'd like to know what is the best hard spread to use on my CMP (milk) allergic toddler's sandwiches? Thank you smile

Virgil Mon 14-Jan-13 21:32:06

I'm still confused about lard. Is lard better than sunflower oil for cooking. I think yes after reading this but would be good if someone could confirm.

Food Programme did a lard special here.

I would vote lard over sunflower oil. It bugs me that you cannot get free range lard in supermarkets.

For sandwiches, if you can't use butter, I would spread very thin olive oil, I think.

Lamazeroo Tue 15-Jan-13 10:42:23

Sorry, ended up having a manic day and not getting back here.
Okay, to try to answer some of the questions.
The best spread for dairy intolerant people is BUTTER. Sounds bizarre, but by far the majority of dairy intolerant people are absolutely fine with butter. It's cows milk protein that causes the immune response to dairy, and this is absent in butter as butter is pure fat. Fat cells do not trigger immune response. If you are CMP intolerant then butter is just fine. Similarly, people who are lactose intolerant are also fine with butter, as there is no sugar in it. The only people who tend to have trouble are those with IgE allergies, to whom I would always give the advice to completely avoid any dairy product. For those, and for vegans, I'd recommend fresh avocado as a sandwich spread. Don't even touch anything that comes in a butter-like tub or that calls itself spread.
Nut butters are excellent. Make sure you're buying one that doesn't contain any added oils though. This just serves to make the product cheaper to produce, as nuts have plenty of their own oil. The only ingredient should be nuts, maybe with a touch of salt. I recommend the Carley's range if you don't have a good enough blender to make your own. Yes, they're expensive, but you are not consuming any damaging vegetable oils.

Juices: loads of research on the benefit of cranberries, mainly due to their hippuric acid and proanthocyanidin content. I agree that are pretty much unpalatable without sugar, which is why I tend to recommend using them as a powdered supplement when a therapeutic effect is necessary. Otherwise, look at how they were used traditionally, which was stewed down to a syrup and added to other foods or fluids.

I haven't used lard myself, but it is very stable yes, you can reuse it. My concern is with modern farming techniques and how the life of the animal dictates the benefits or detriments of the lard. The type of fats found in animal fat depends on the diet and lifestyle of the animal from whence it came. You need to make sure it comes from grass fed freerange animals. Grain feeding is a bad idea, as it changes the fatty acid content of the lard, biasing it towards inflammatory omega 6. This is one of the major reason I am a proponent of organic farming. The most important thing to know about your food is where it came from and how it was grown (or fed).

Non-dairy alternative to Stork - do try butter, you may very well be able to tolerate it despite other dairy not agreeing with you. Otherwise, Higher Nature coconut butter is your friend. Makes wonderful cakes smile

NuclearStandoff Tue 15-Jan-13 10:58:20

I suppose you could render your own lard?

If you only buy organic meat (as i do) and save the fat which comes off pork, beef and lamb?

Really interested by this, as I had previously thought that all 'hard' animal fats were very unhelathy (and dh has high cholesterol) so always discarded. But now might save them up for roasting potatoes etc.

What about rice bran oil?

tumbletumble Tue 15-Jan-13 11:26:15

Have just found this thread. Can I try to summarise (assuming no intolerances):

Cooking: butter, ghee or coconut oil
Spreading on bread: butter
Salads: olive oil
No fruit juice (is squash OK?)

Does that sound right or have I missed anything??

Catsdontcare Tue 15-Jan-13 11:31:18

Personally I avoid squash's that are full of chemical shit like aspartame and only give very weak cordial as they contain a lot of sugar.

In an ideal situation they would just drink milk or water but that's not easy to achieve!

Lamb and beef fat don't work so well - needs to be pig fat.

Squash is pretty bad. Either a massive sugar rush or loads of chemical crap. Better to eat the actual fruit.

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Jan-13 12:49:42

Why don't you cook with olive oil? I'm curious.

BettySuarez Tue 15-Jan-13 12:51:47

I always use olive oil but it is not so good at higher temperatures. So for deep fat frying I have traditionally used Veg Oil.

Might consider switching to lard though

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Jan-13 13:01:29

Yes, don't fry with olive oil. But cook with olive oil, surely?

GirlOutNumbered Tue 15-Jan-13 13:09:14

I was so surprised reading about the freshly squeezed juice, I had no idea. I have just pulled the juicer out of the back of the cupboard!

EuroShagmore Tue 15-Jan-13 13:25:08

Interesting Lam. I'm dairy intolerant but have always been fine with a bit of butter. Now I know why!

GirlOutNumbered Tue 15-Jan-13 19:24:58

Omg lam you have just made my night. Why didn't my dietician ell me I could have butter! I've been cooking with stork. If this is right, you have really really made my day/night/life!!

tb Tue 15-Jan-13 21:05:25

Many years ago (nearly 40) I was a biochemistry undergraduate at university. In our second year we had lectures on nutrition - from a biochemical point of view.

A couple of interesting points have stuck with me ever since
1. The body manufactures its own cholesterol - it's an ingredient of cell membranes if I remember correctly
2. If you compared a 'typical' dish from the 1950s home-made version, with the 1970s mass-produced version, the amount of fat was increased by a third.

The lecturer, told that with a diet low in processed foods, say from the 1950s, as a proportion of calorific content - not weight - the 1950s diet contained 30% of its calories as fat. So for 3,000 Cal a day, 1,000 came from fat. By the 1970s, with a greater amount of processed foods available and eaten the calories from fat would have been 40% ie for 3,000 Cal a day 1,200 calories would have come from fat. Much of this would be processed, trans-hydrogenated fats.

One summer, I had a holiday job in public analyst's laboratory. It was a real eye-opener.
A fruit drink has less fruit juice than 'fruit juice'
The minimum meat content for a meat pie is 25%, half of which can be fat.
A hamburger only has to be 80% meat (again only half of this has to be lean), so a 200g burger can legally contain 80g of lean meat, and 80g of fat (of any type)
Pork sausage is 65% meat, beef 55%.
The meat content for a meat+potato pie was 12.5%, many contained less, which is why they are now called potato+meat pies, which have no defined meat content.

This is all within the Sausage and other meat product regulations. It's really interesting/horrifying reading depending on your point of view.

Mechanically-recovered meat wasn't developed until the 1960s. I can remember the County Analyst, stomping around muttering "Louis bloody Edwards" - a former chairman of Man United here.

Food-labelling is really interesting, too.

Sorry if I've highjacked the thread, but quality of food is something I feel passionate about. I met my husband during that holiday job, so it's something we still talk about.

MrsPennyapple Tue 15-Jan-13 21:25:07

Grr, just typed out a post and lost it!

I am curious about Bertolli, why do you say it's crap, Lamazeroo? I have looked online but can only find information saying how healthy it is, it seems supiciously one-sided. It's not clear (to me at least) whether or not it contains anything hydrogenated.

CoteDAzur Wed 16-Jan-13 07:41:49

tb - Thanks for all that info. Very interesting.

FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn Wed 16-Jan-13 07:55:58

MrsPennyApple, this is the list of ingredients from the Unilever website:

"BERTOLLI olive oil composed of refined olive oils and virgin olive oils, Rapeseed oil, Water, Whey, Vegetable oils, Buttermilk, Salt (0.8%), Emulsifier: mono-and di-glycerides of fatty acids, Preservative: potassium sorbate, Thickener: sodium alginate, Citric acid, Vitamin E, Flavouring, Vitamins A & D, Colour: natural carotenes"

Some not very appetising ingredients!

Catsdontcare Wed 16-Jan-13 10:16:39

Girlsoutnumbered I have read several sources mentioning that butter or ghee can be tolerated by people with dairy allergies I didn't mention it earlier in the. Thread as I have no qualifications in this area.

I try to go by the rule that the longer the list of ingredients the wider a berth you should give it!

FeijoaVodkaAndCheezels Wed 16-Jan-13 10:24:32

There was a great ad on Tv when I was young for butter.

Girl saus to her Mum 'Mum, how is butter made?'
Mum puts cream and a tiny pinch of salt into a jar, puts lid on and starts shaking.
Cut to finish of shaking process. Young girl tastes resulting butter, then asks 'so how do you make margarine?'
Mum replies 'Ask your father, he's the chemist'

I know which product I would rather eat!

MrsPennyapple Wed 16-Jan-13 10:42:32

Frankell Is that for the Bertolli olive oil? The ingredients on the tub of spread are:

59% vegetable fat spread with 21% olive oil.
Ingredients: Mild olive oil composed of refined olive ois and virgin olive oils, rapeseed oil, water, whey (from milk), vegetable oils, buttermilk, salt, emulsifier: mono- and di-glycerides of fatty acids, preservative: potassium sorbate, thickener: sodium alginate, citric acid, vitamin E, flavouring, vitamins A & D, colour: carotenes.

I have no idea what mono- and di-glycerides are, and I know that sodium alginate is not great, but it doesn't mention anything hydrogenated, and isn't that where the trans-fats come from? Sorry to harp on, but it's so difficult to find out how good / bad it REALLY is, on the scale.

Very badly laid out website but has the most information.

To pull out one phrase: the industry only has to report trans fat content from triglycerides--not from monoglycerides or diglycerides. But trans fats are inevitably formed in when mono- and diglycerides are manufactured.

Mono and di glicerides are listed as emulsifiers (they mix fats with water to a smooth consistency), so they don't get listed as fats.

betterwhenthesunshines Wed 16-Jan-13 11:34:39

Fantastic thread - very interesting.

I have always used butter for bread and olive oil for cooking. Have avoided generic vegetable oil at home due to some comment my mum once made about rapeseed oils, but I do use sunflower oil for frying eg making fishcakes. It seems that finding a source of good lard might be tricky ( the one Waitrose stocks contains antioxidant. although Sains basics seems not to)

My mother has never been overweight but has recently been diagnosed diabetic. The doctor has also prescribed her statins as her cholesterol is borderline but they tend to make her dizzy so it's very interesting to read the link about statins also blocking creation of Q10. She is no longer taking statins due to the reading she has done about cholesterol.

All fairly complicated stuff, and easy to get bogged down!

lurkingaround Wed 16-Jan-13 12:22:39

Have just wandered on to this thread. Absolutely fascinating read. I'm delighted I've bumped into it!

So just wondering. Shop-bought biscuits almost never list trans fats as an ingredient. (In fact you'd be hard-pushed to find anything in a supermarket that lists trans fats) But this is only because they are only obliged to list transfats from triglycerides, not from the mono- and di-glicerides that they usually list. Am I right? And so I must now quit my little Rich Tea habit??

I often think of when I was feeding DCs when they were babies: the fewer ingredients the better. We should be doing this right thru'out life.

betterwhenthesunshines Wed 16-Jan-13 12:44:57

I'd like to know whether (which) preservatives are bad for you.

Thumbwitch Wed 16-Jan-13 12:48:39

Shop-bought biscuits aren't likely to have too many transfats because they use palm oil in a lot of baked confectionery, which has a high saturated fatty acid content and is therefore more stable than polyunsaturated oils, and is cheaper than butter.

Palm oil has its own problems though - primarily (IMO) that the orangutans' habitat is being systematically destroyed to build palm plantations to feed the western world's need for baked confectionery. sad

Swiddle Wed 16-Jan-13 12:51:11

Hi Lamazeroo - help me feel better about the big bottle of rapeseed oil that I recently bought having learnt that olive oil is a baddie at high heat. Yes, I hear you about genetically modified, pesticides and allergenic. But is it okay in terms of how the body deals with the fat intake? If I tracked down an organic rapeseed oil, how would that be?

MrsPennyapple Wed 16-Jan-13 12:52:40

Thank you for the link Travelincolour, that's really interesting. It's as I suspected - it's as bad as the rest but dressed up to look healthier. (Aren't they all though?) I knew that emulsifiers exist to make the texture more "desirable" or to stop things separating, but not what they were made of.

I suppose peanut butter must have emulsifiers added these days? When I was a kid the oil used to separate out and come to the top, but that doesn't happen any more.

I saw orange flavour yoghurt for sale somewhere a while back, that must be full of rubbish in order to stop it curdling. You never used to be able to get it when I was young. (I'm only 35, I sound like I'm 70!)

I recently discovered a health food shop near my house, I can see me going there more and more. And it's butter all the way as soon as this tub of Bertolli is used up.

I am interested in nutrition and have considered studying with a view to a career in that area somewhere, but I am not really science-y, it seems like you have to have a good grasp of science to understand nutrition. To anyone working in that area, would you say that's the case?

Thumbwitch Wed 16-Jan-13 13:01:19

MrsPennyapple - you don't have to start off with a good science background but you do need to take courses in science to really "get" it, yes. There are foundation science courses in basic biology and chemistry that may be required; these take you to the level needed to start the nutrition course; and then there will be more biochemistry, physiology and other sciencey bits on the course (if it's one worth doing). Any course that doesn't require you to learn the science behind it, isn't worth doing, IMO.

ShiftyFades Wed 16-Jan-13 13:02:15

Shamelessly marking my spot as I am trying to be healthy / lose weight.

caramelwaffle Wed 16-Jan-13 13:08:16

Butter = good

Margarine (and spreads) = "the devil's sperm"*

Squash = devil's wee

I forget to whom this should be attributed, however I agree.

Minimammoth Wed 16-Jan-13 13:15:26

Aspartame is def. on my black list. It is hard to find a low sugar product without it though. Low sugar/ salt beans for instance have aspartame. Low cal drinks, and tonic water too. Apparently the human body does not know what to do with it. ( can't remember how I knw this blush)

MrsPennyapple Wed 16-Jan-13 13:21:44

Thanks Thumbwitch. I'd be looking at doing an OU course probably, but it wouldn't be for a while yet as I'm pg with DC2. My background is in accountancy & finance so it would be a complete change, I'd have to start from scratch with the studying, but it does interest me, so I may look into it in the future.

lljkk Wed 16-Jan-13 13:23:33


Few margarine products in the UK now contain hydrogenated fats, there's a lot of misinformation on this thread. hmm If hydrogenated fats are included (even partial) they have to be labeled as such by law. Check out ingredients on a tub of Olivio for yourself (sigh).

MrsPennyapple Wed 16-Jan-13 13:28:17

Sigh away, lljkk but maybe re-read my posts first? I have twice listed the ingredients on the tub. Perhaps your information is out of date? After all, Olivio changed it's name to Bertolli a fair while ago.

fiddlemethis Wed 16-Jan-13 13:59:01

Mrspennyapple I did the OU understanding human nutrition course, it was interesting but I have forgotten a lot of what I learnt!! I don't think it would take much to brush up though and its great if you are interested in food and health. It might be a good place to start.

lljkk Wed 16-Jan-13 14:29:26
MrsPennyapple Wed 16-Jan-13 14:32:00

Fiddle I did have a look at what OU had to offer a few months ago, I saw that course and thought it looked like the kind of thing that would be good to start with.

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 16-Jan-13 15:08:12

So then a normal (and cheap!!) packet of lard from the chiller cabinet next to the butter is a decent alternative to expensive coconut oil for frying, roasting potatoes etc? Better for you than sunflower oil.

Maybe someone has answered this already over the fo;;owing 4 pages but

No, lard may not be a good idea - in theory, nothing wrong with lard, but unfortunately there is plenty wrong with the methods used to commercially extract lard from beef waste - dissolved in chemicals then more nasty stuff added to remove those chemicals.

If you roast meat joints, pour off the fat and let it solidify in a cup, you will get a disc of pure white fat which is great from frying and totally natural.

Cold pressed, raw coconut oil is fantastic stuff. Cheaper to buy online ie Biona raw organic coconut oil, expensive yes (about £9 for a large jar), but a little goes a long way (it is for coating and shallow fry or roasting - not deep frying!), it is full of brain friendly compounds.

I use organic butter too and cold pressed olive oil (as a salad dressing).

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 16-Jan-13 15:25:51

*Why I prefer 'real' fats to those others*:
About seven years ago, I broke my arm, badly. I was quite traumatised, and didnt leave the house much for 6 months or so. Over that six months, cooking and eating kept me sane. Someone gave me the River Cottage cookbook. It was excellent. For 6 months I cooked with butter, cream, cheese, meat, fresh veg... I didnt use anything processed. One week, I used 2.5 litres of double cream! When I returned to work, (after 6 months) I weighed 1 stone less than when I left!

CATPUSS, I love this wee story - tallies very much with my own experiences of ditching anything processed and decreasing carbs, increasing natural fats including double cream (minus the broken arm smile).

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 16-Jan-13 15:39:34

Catsdontcare Can you recommend any good websites. I suffer from IBS and am looking for more ideas on how to deal with it.

Bunbaker, you might want to try removing ALL (yes all, absolutely all) grain products from your diet for a short time (a month), to see what happens. That would include rice, oats, barely wheat, maize... if you get a big improvement in your symptoms you could then reintroduce one at a time (I suggest trying white rice first, as that is the least likely of the grains to cause ibs symptoms). Eat the reintroduced food daily for several days before adding in any other new foods.

But I guess with a name like bunbaker you might find that a little hard smile

Catsdontcare Wed 16-Jan-13 16:43:06

Scotchandwry I found elana's pantry good for recipes and if you google gaps diet quite a lot comes up. I'm reading gut and psychology syndrome at the mo.

SCOTCHandWRY Wed 16-Jan-13 17:10:22

Cats - I'm Paleo/primal, interestingly often used as a template for Gaps and similar diets - no grains at all (well, very occasional small bowl of white rice), it's certainly interesting to read into this stuff. I think some people can tolerate grains (and other inflamatory/insulin spiking foods) better than others, but in the long run, imo our modern processed/fake food diet makes us ALL ill to some degree, and many of us, very ill!

TepidCoffee Wed 16-Jan-13 22:28:33

Interesting point about how lard is produced, Scotch (although do you mean pork rather than beef?). Good tip about saving the fat from roasts for frying.

Bunbaker Thu 17-Jan-13 07:04:18

Thank you all for your advice. Although my nn implies I do a lot of baking, I don't bake as often as you think. I will give the no grain approach a try.

CoteDAzur Thu 17-Jan-13 11:37:45

"grains (and other inflamatory/insulin spiking foods) "

I'm very curious as to what "inflammatory" means in this context. Are you saying that out body's inner tissues swell up as we digest these foods?

I was at a lunch with this expert and she tried to convince me that meat is "inflammatory", can't be digested, and "rots in your colon". I went easy on her because, well, she is dying. Still, I can't even understand what made her think so.

And now you seem to be saying that actually grains are inflammatory. Do you think meat is inflammatory, too?

Thumbwitch Thu 17-Jan-13 12:00:26

Cote - do you mean that she has the cancer back again?

I can only assume that she was talking about the fats in meat, which tend towards producing pro-inflammatory prostaglandins; but also over-cooked meat is hard to digest because of the denaturation and toughening of the protein fibres, so it's hard going for the stomach acids to open up the proteins and provide the proteases with their access points to break down the protein molecules into polypeptides and oligopeptides, which can then be further broken down in the small intestine to dipeptides and amino acids, which we can absorb. But then amino acids in excess create an acidic environment which can be considered inflammatory as well (contributes to joint inflammation etc.)
"Rotting in your gut" - well, if you have poor/slow digestion then yes, it's possible that partially digested meat will stay in your colon for an extended period of time, which has been linked to colon cancer.

Inflammatory grains - certainly possible - the damage done to the small intestinal villi by the immune response mounted against gluten in coeliacs could be described as inflammatory, I suppose. Not sure that the non-glutinous grains could have the same effect, but if a person was actively allergic to them, then they could.

CoteDAzur Thu 17-Jan-13 12:20:54

I met her about a year ago. She got up and talked about her beliefs re raw food & vegetarianism, and also told her story. Then poor girl sat at my table smile Anyway, she talked about how she was so much better because of her new diet, but also said that her cancer has metastised which basically means that cancer has won and she doesn't have much time left sad

I have to go now but will come back to comment on inflammation & digestion of food. I thought her account of especially the latter was quite fictional, bordering on fantastical.

FeijoaVodkaAndCheezels Thu 17-Jan-13 12:22:54

So I was just thinking about the small amount of butter being okay for lactose intolerant people as it is pure fat.

So surely this would mean that cream would also be alright as it is the fat the butter is made from?

I may have to run a (potentially very smelly) experiment on this...

Bunbaker Thu 17-Jan-13 12:29:57

"So surely this would mean that cream would also be alright as it is the fat the butter is made from?"

I don't think so as I find that cream gives me the most horrendous diarrhoea and butter doesn't

AdoraBell Thu 17-Jan-13 12:53:17


May I ask, please, is there a difference between the pure butter you mentioned and standard butter from the supermarket?

Disclaimer - yes, I know I'm probably just being dim blush

Thumbwitch Thu 17-Jan-13 13:04:21

Butter isn't pure fat. It's at least 80% fat (by law); the rest is water, a bit of salt, a tiny amount of lactose and some residual casein proteins - plus the vitamins and minerals.

GirlOutNumbered Thu 17-Jan-13 13:50:13

Well, I bought some butter and have eaten it and fed my CMP intolerant baby. Fingers crossed.
I had it on a hot cross bun. It was delicious.

Onetwothreeoops Thu 17-Jan-13 17:44:47

Lamazeroo (or anyone else around in the know) when you say butter does that include spreadable butter?

Spreadable butter used to be just butter that had been whipped to include air. Nowadays it is generally butter mixed with vegetable oil. I would avoid.

CobOnTheCorn Mon 21-Jan-13 18:43:42

Would anyone mind if I asked for this thread to be moved in to Food?

I have found it really interesting and I think it's a shame that it will evaporate if it stays in chat.

caramelwaffle Mon 21-Jan-13 19:02:43

Good idea Cob

SnowLiviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 21-Jan-13 19:04:47


Would anyone mind if I asked for this thread to be moved in to Food?

I have found it really interesting and I think it's a shame that it will evaporate if it stays in chat.

We'll move this one now.
Thanks for flagging.

ninja Mon 21-Jan-13 22:33:55

My mum has spreadable butter that has no vegetable oil - I think Kerrygold and Loseley - might go and check. Would they be OK?

ninja Mon 21-Jan-13 22:39:49

Looks good ninja.
I just leave my butter out on the side, it's spreadable enough.

caramelwaffle Tue 22-Jan-13 14:54:17

SnowLiviaMumsnet A very witty, clever MN Nickname.

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