I've decided to go until people stop being silly about having a tory government.

(96 Posts)
belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 16:49:51

It's getting on my nerves now so I'm going to have a break until you have all calmed down. There's really no need for all the tory bashing that's been going on, it's rather pathetic. The tory supporters have had to put up with a Labour government for the past 13 years and we have not complained even a fraction of the amount that I've seen on here.
I hope that in the years that I have been on here that I have helped and made some of you laugh. I might return, real life needs me to do other things for a while though.



Lizzylou Wed 12-May-10 16:54:00

Hope you get stuff sorted, sorry you feel "got at".

Does it help any that it's not a Tory Government, but a Coalition, albeit heavily weighted towards the Conservatives? wink

theagedparent Wed 12-May-10 16:55:21


belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 16:56:37

Thankyou Lizzy smile

I don't think people can see past Thatcher. It's sad really.

I don't feel got at, I'm just sick of having the same conversation and having to say the same thing over and over again. My life is just too short.

pagwatch Wed 12-May-10 16:59:06


why don't you stay and just block politics...and AIBU....and chat ...grin

seriously this was always going to be toys out the pram time
Take a break and come back.
MN is weird at the moment.

Lizzylou Wed 12-May-10 17:01:01

I didn't vote Conservative, but really think we just have to suck it up and see what happens. A coalition government is quite an exciting prospect and I am interested to see how it evolves.

I think the dust will settle soon, people have bad memories of the Thatcher years, I don't think we're in for that again.

MN will be back to being all about bumsex/BF v FF and Mother and Baby car parking spaces again soon wink

Personally I am hoping that in the next few weeks BNP threads will be a distant memory grin

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:01:57

I need a break, I really am spending far too much time repeating myself, it's not just on the election/tory bashing threads. I'm starting to feel as if I'm talking to my mother, she doesn't listen so I have to repeat everything over and over again.

If I blocked all the politics threads there would be no threads left! grin

thumbwitch Wed 12-May-10 17:04:06

Aw, fluffy, don't flounce over that, please!

Remember this is why politics should never be discussed between friends - it is a real sticking point. One of my best friends has polar opposite political views to me - so we don't discuss politics. Other than that we are great friends!

Just ignore as pag says - it'll blow over once everyone gets used to it.

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:04:11

I may come back in a couple of months or so. My house is a tip and I have lots of work to do aswell so a break will be good.

I hope you get rid of the BNP thread really, really soon though.

Unsearchable Wed 12-May-10 17:05:14

People are frightened, Belle.

The thing is, many single parents here were raised themselves by single parents, and they were raised under Thatcher. Life was hard for single parents under Thatcher. She seemed to hate them, she certainly didn't do anything to make their lives easier.

And now we have a man who was a young politician in the 1980's, saw a Thatcher government and decided "Yes. That's the party I feel able to represent".

Is it any wonder people are fearing a return to poverty?

GetOrfMoiLand Wed 12-May-10 17:05:34

Oh don;t feel that you have to go.

Yes it is pretty emotive at the moment. I am a firm labour supporter and emotions have run high to say the least. I am restricting myself to the leftie thread at the moe because, personally, I do not want to have the same circular arguments anyway.

I am sure that there are plenty of other threads, don;t feel hounded out.

There are plenty of other threads - I have been on one where we have talked about bingeing on chocolate bars. It is not all politics.

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:05:42

You know where to find me thumb smile (get yourself on facebook woman!)

Real life is shouting out though. I do spend too much time on here so I need to go cold turkey! confused

OrmRenewed Wed 12-May-10 17:06:37

Bye then.

Or don't get involved in political debates. People aren't going to stop 'being silly' if they don't agree with you.

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:07:53

I'm a single parent unsearchable. I have faith in the Cameron government. I lived through the Thatcher years when we had nothing.

I really should spend some time cleaning and working. Mumsnet is a huge distraction.

pagwatch Wed 12-May-10 17:08:29

but thats not true

I had a seeringly exciting thread about musical instruments today that became quite exciting over the whole wind vs string issue.

You are being blinded by the high occtane negotiated coalition and "will a tory government barbeque my baby and sell my mother as a chimney sweep' scenarios.

Mooch around in housekeeping and chcken threads until the world cup starts or we have two or three hot days.

Or go all activist like and post 'I strapped myself to a trolly and left muself in P&T parking overnight even though I had no baby and didn't even go in. AIBU'

Or ask bumsex questions

sarah293 Wed 12-May-10 17:09:00

funny, labour bashing hasn't stopped in the media for 13 years.
Cameron is hard enough to cope with a bunch of mums complaining you know.

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:09:00

People saying they are depressed or in tears over who runs the country? Please!

oh i know, it's not as if the people who run the country affect anyones lives is it?

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:13:20

Making a mountain out of a mole hill springs to mind bat. How about you give the bloke a chance before you start saying how depressed you are or how crap life is going to be etc?

And do people out of the chance to say i told you so when it all goes belly up and they do actually start eating babies? Where would be the fun in that? wink

thumbwitch Wed 12-May-10 17:15:25

I'm scared of Facebook - silly, aren't I!blush

I do know what you mean about needing to go cold turkey from MN though - I mean, it's 2:15 am here and freezing but I'm still on MN with rugs wrapped round me! Talk about addicted...grin

catinthehat2 Wed 12-May-10 17:18:12

Agree, I am dulled out as well, such dreary repetitive threads.

I will look for the string/ww thread

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:19:22

You're just as bad as me thumb! Facebook is OK. I really need to clean though blush

Cameron is hardly Herod, I can't see the Human Rights commission allowing him to slaughter the first born of every family to save money can you? Give the guy a chance before you rip him to shreads, he may actually do a really good job!

Ripeberry Wed 12-May-10 17:21:24

People need to face the fact that cuts HAVE to be made. We can't carry on as we were and there will be hard times and maybe even VAT up to 20%.
Also, some people don't like the fact that the conservatives want people to help the country and not just keep taking.
Maybe the Conservatives will treat us all like adults and not mamby pamby us like Labour did.

UnquietDad Wed 12-May-10 17:23:13

Democracy means you occasionally get a Government you don't want. That seems fairly self-evident to me. I said the same in 1997.

Lizzylou Wed 12-May-10 17:23:24

Just ignore it all, I have had my MOther blaming everything that happens on the fact that I vote Labour, selling Gold/Credit Crunch/Cherie Blair's mouth, it is all my fault.
I just give her more wine until she eventually passes out.

If you are secure in your beliefs and feel hopeful for the future, then why get embroiled?

I fancy Nick Clegg, so I am somewhat pleased


I also need to clean, am hoping for a return to the "Loadsamoney" 80's so I can get a cleaner.

IndigoSky Wed 12-May-10 17:23:45

Have a good time in RL Belle. When you come back most of the hysteria will have died down, I'm sure. I keep away from those threads because I do think they are repetitive and dull as cat says, not because I support any particular party.

However, I have a theory that an awful lot of people who say they voted labour or lib dem actually voted tory....

Good luck with the cleaning!

wannaBe Wed 12-May-10 17:25:23

the thing is, people don't seem to realize how personal these discussions are getting, and yet the same people who are "tori bashing" are the same ones that take it personally when people talk about the need for cuts.

It's apparently not ok to make reference to the need for spending cuts because of all the people that might be affected (and given we don't know yet this is not a certainty), and yet it's ok to slag off anyone that earns more than say, £50k and name-call, and no-one is allowed to defend themselves against that because they're rich.

Fwiw I wasn't happy with any of the parties. Financially we have been made worse off under the labour govt but the potential for public service cuts concerns me re the tori's. But I voted for them because my candidate was a very personable individual who came canvasing personally at my door, unlike the labour candidate that has been brought in from 100 miles away to replace the one that resigned (the tori candidate got in here).

I think as much as people might dislike the tori's, it's also important not to lose sight of the people you are, and ask whether you would speak to people you know personally in the way that some tori voters have been spoken to by some on here.

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:26:01

Absolutely Ripeberry. The country partied for years under the Labour government. The party's over now though and it's time for it to be cleaned up. They will save alot of money by scrapping the ID cards though, this is a really good plan. We did live in a shopping culture, credit was too freely availiable and the country turned into shopaholics, it was bound to blow up at some point. I hope the country develops different values, the community spirit seems to be lacking in some areas, it's very sad.

UnquietDad Wed 12-May-10 17:27:19

Just to say I have never Tori-bashed. I have had a copy of "Little Earthquakes" since 1991 and I love it to bits.

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:29:26

I agree with you all. It's lovely that I don't feel like the odd one out.

I still have to clean and work though sad

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:30:47

facebook is just as bad as here, I'm going to have to do a cull later.

We all make mistakes, 13 years is too long to hold a grudge though.

2shoes Wed 12-May-10 17:35:10

hope you come back soon.

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:36:19


Kewcumber Wed 12-May-10 17:39:40

"They will save alot of money by scrapping the ID cards though, this is a really good plan." - Amen

seeker Wed 12-May-10 17:40:38

I am not being silly when I say I genuinely fear for the future under the Tories- I can remember the tast Tory administration which dertroyed British Industry, sold British assets to the highest bidder and taught people to believe that they should 'look out for number one' because there is no such thing as society. I remember massive waiting lists for hospital appointments and the sale of council houses. I remember punitive measures against single mothers and section 28. That's not being silly. That's being politically aware.

AndieWalsh Wed 12-May-10 17:40:47

Cheerio then

wannaBe Wed 12-May-10 17:48:40

Thing is, it's one thing to not like what the party stands for, it's quite another to personally insult those that vote for said party.

The tori's may have made mistakes in the past, but the vitreol directed at some of the tori voters on mn is not dissimilar to that directed at some of the bnp supporters.

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 17:49:35

Being politically aware is fair enough, this was 13 years + though. Things change, people change, you can't tar the whole of the Conservative party for the same brush that's 13 years old. Parties build on what's happened before, give them a chance before you slate them.

AndieWalsh Wed 12-May-10 17:57:33

Um, it's the whole political ideology of Conservatism that I have a problem with, actually. The core values of the Tory party. Yuck.

QOD Wed 12-May-10 17:57:34

I must admit I am all eye rolly about the whole hysteria on here and facebook about conservative etc.
My feeling is majority rules, that's democracy - we accepted labour for years and now it#s someone else's turn - someone new to change things.
You know, a "friend" of mines friend on facebook added to her thread about being pleased to say
"its alright for you, my husband will have to give up work now because they'll cut our tax credits so its not worth working"
THAT'S the sort of person that has broken Britain.
Bugger, did I just get political? LOL

belledechocolatefluffybunny Wed 12-May-10 18:00:53

I don't think people have actually read their manifesto (not that most of it applies now though), there's way too many assumptions.

You are political QOD grin

catinthehat2 Wed 12-May-10 18:08:08

It's Tory with a Y all you random spelling persons on this thread.

Tori is a girl's name and you have to have a balloony thing over the 'i' rather than a dot.

This is ridiculous. Of course MN is full of political talk at the moment, the election was less than a week ago. You say 'we' Tory supporters haven't done half the labour bashing as the 'lefties' have Tory bashing. Well fucking dur. There hasn't been a change of govt in that time, has there? And you are delusional if you think MN would be any different had Labour won!

Honestly, whichever 'side' you are on flouncing because of the high number of political threads at the moment is just absurd. It is easy to hide or ignore stuff you don't want to read, and unless someone is holding a gun to your head it's also really easy not to reply to stuff.

FairyMum Wed 12-May-10 18:21:32

I would probably be thrown out of the window by my colleagues at work if I said I as a Labour supporter so I think its lovely to come on MN and do a little Tory-bashing. I don't get how you can take anything anyone say to you on MN personally as you don't actually know anyone here. In RL I don't really discuss politics much and I expect its the same for most people. MN is not RL.

CoupleofKooks Wed 12-May-10 18:24:09

flouncing because 'silly' people don't like the Tories?
and presuming that it's because they don't properly understand their manifesto?

excuse me while i hmm at you on your way out

Ripeberry Wed 12-May-10 19:39:07

So far they are raising the tax rate to £10,000, that includes the pensioners who now won't have to pay so much tax on their pensions.
Is that enough to start with?

pagwatch Wed 12-May-10 19:43:52


excuse me!

some of us fucking hate Toris...Spelling, Hatcher...
shits - all of them

ThatVikRinA22 Wed 12-May-10 19:54:34

i think the thing is its quite an emotive topic - lots of stuff on mumsnet is. you could always ignore us silly people you know belle!

(i didnt think i was going to vote this time and im quite amazed at what a political animal i became! sorry to say im not pro cameron or clegg either)

dont flounce. just hide the stuff that gets on your tits!

catinthehat2 Wed 12-May-10 19:57:03

(Pag, I was about to add something about Aaron Spelling's daughter, but thought it might get too confusing when complaining about.. spelling) confused

But I do take your point.

EdgarAllenPoll Wed 12-May-10 19:59:14

Just to say I have never Tori-bashed. I have had a copy of "Little Earthquakes" since 1991 and I love it to bits

You're quite the metrosexual, aren't you UQD?

catinthehat2 Wed 12-May-10 20:01:47

Tori flippin Amos

What an unwelcome blast from the past.

I may have to hide this thread now.

BeenBeta Wed 12-May-10 20:05:07

Well I must say I was getting a bit sick of the Tory bashing myself so I deliberately spent some time on the leftie thread (and was made to feel very welcome) last night. As a Tory voter I actually think there is a heck of lot to agree about in the Con-Lib agreement published today and what Labour voters want.

I think we should have a Kiss-and-Make-Up on the Politics topic. I really do not see any Tory triumphalism going on and I think Labour supporters should show the same consideration.

giraffesCANdriveAcar Wed 12-May-10 20:05:49

Have a wee break but do come back. Catch you on fb hopefully

LoveBeingAHungParliament Wed 12-May-10 20:11:12

Make sure you come back soon, unless you're planning on not being here for the next four yearsgrin

lemonmuffin Wed 12-May-10 20:40:10

I hope you come back soon belle. We've never spoken but i've enjoyed reading your posts on here and have you down as one of the saner, more sensible people on this site.

And there's not enough of those around at present grin

BelleDameSansMerci Wed 12-May-10 20:45:01

Belle sad

I've got your email address - you're not getting away from me. x

fembear Wed 12-May-10 21:44:30

Sorry to see you go, fluffy. We need all the non-Lefties we can get on here.

I do agree with you that the hysterical over-reaction is getting a bit wearing. Personally, I feel like a lead weight has been lifted now that Gordon has gone and feel quite hopeful about turning the econoomy around and getting the finances back on track. It's sad that so many see it as a threat instead of an opportunity but they have been sucked into the dependency culture by Labour policies. There are six million households claiming handouts - that is ridiculous and unsustainable.

AndieWalsh Wed 12-May-10 21:49:10

'handouts' 'dependency' 'hysterical'

Spoken like a true Tory!

gaelicsheep Wed 12-May-10 21:51:36

Please don't go. The average age on here at the moment seems to be about 8. We need grown ups too!

AccidenToryOnPurpose Wed 12-May-10 22:00:28

cat - wannabe uses software that will have misplaced the 'y' with an 'i', and UQD was just trying to be funny... don't know if he knows wannabe uses software to access mn... he should do, he's been about a bit winkanyways...

belle, i need to clean too. had de-regged for the second time, but am assuming it will all blow over in a week or two, so am cautiously peeking in...

sallyJayGorce Wed 12-May-10 22:02:00

I'm not a leftie. I think Cameron wants to change a lot about the Tories in a good way. Having the Lib Dem support might fast track modernisation he would have struggled to get past die hard members if the Tories were governing alone. I am veru optimistic about the possiblities of a new way of working. Very keen on co-operative politics taking precedence over party politics. I'm not tribal in my allegiances though - see some good policies in all of them but my natural inclination is right of centre. Essentially a belief in the responsibility of the individual above that of the state.

Isn't anyone else excited by the new possiblities - even if we are disappointed by the outcomes?

UnquietDad Wed 12-May-10 22:02:18

hey, sorry, didn't mean to cause offence and was just trying to lighten the tone, whether Tory or Tori.

herbietea Wed 12-May-10 22:14:42

So sorry to hear this Belle.

I feel the same way about the 'Tory bashing', it has got too personal by a few posters and it leaves a really nasty taste in my mouth.

I was going to flounce this morning too, but decided to spend a lot less time on here instead.

You're on my friends list on Facebook so I'll see you over there.smile

gerontius Wed 12-May-10 23:52:44

Everyone's been "bashing" everyone else. It's been just as bad from both sides and been mostly reasoned argument anyway. And to be fair, people have more reason to be worried this time around as Tory governments don't really have a history of helping the poor an awful lot.

BelleDameSansMerci Thu 13-May-10 07:10:44

I am a leftie (albeit of the Champagne Socialist variety) and I think there has been a fair bit of "debate" which has been hurtful to both sides.

To be honest, I feel caught in the middle as I support the Labour party but would have been hit by the taxation plans as I'm quite a high earner. So, I'm then slated as "deserving to pay more tax" by a lot of the people that I would normally be supported by on other threads.

I've felt like flouncing too but I'd do it and then come back in a day or so and would look like an idiot (as usual).

I'm sorry that so many people have felt "got at" under all these politcal threads but I'm also pleased that we all care so much.

fembear Thu 13-May-10 08:50:29

Nice one, gerontius. You start off trying to be all reasonable but then can't help descending into scare stories about what Tories might do.hmm

In the pursuit of trying to be even-handed, how about analysing what Labour have done: please discuss what a catastrophic mess they have made of the country's finances without including an attempt to shift the blame to "global circumstances". Last I heard, Canada lived in the same global sphere as us and they managed to avoid the recession, despite living right next door to America and their toxic debt. There is an article in The Economist about how they (1) avoided the recession and job losses by being prudent (remember Gordon's 'prudence' catchphrase - whatever happened there?) and (2) they avoided the rise in property prices that we have had here which means that the lower-earners/next generation, who you are so worried about, cannot afford to buy a roof over their heads.

seeker Thu 13-May-10 10:36:43

But it's no point saying "Ah well, that was 13 years ago - things are different now" because the basic policies, tenets and values of the Conservative Party remain the same. That's what makes the Conservatives - and presumably why their supporters voted for them.

thumbwitch Thu 13-May-10 23:52:24

I think a fair proportion of voters will have voted for the Tories simply to remove Labour, rather than that they truly believe the Tories are going to do a better job. Not the majority of voters by any stretch, but a significant proportion.

gerontius Fri 14-May-10 00:13:05

But it was global circumstances. Practically every country in the world suffered from the recession. And Brown was so respected that most European countries took his advice over how to deal with it. And seeing as we don't know what the Tories might do I have to base it on their principles.

southeastastra Thu 15-Jul-10 22:29:18

have they stopped being silly hmm

belledechocolatefluffybunny Thu 15-Jul-10 22:30:55

I think so.

southeastastra Thu 15-Jul-10 22:31:44

sorry belle counldn't resist

funnysinthegarden Thu 15-Jul-10 22:32:15

belle I thought you were off? See can't keep away grin

belledechocolatefluffybunny Thu 15-Jul-10 22:35:31

It's OK.

I did say I'd return, just like a bad smell!

southeastastra Thu 15-Jul-10 22:40:26

don't be daft!

i was checking out the flouncers corner to see who had done a flounce grin and noticed your thread it made me laugh grin

belledechocolatefluffybunny Thu 15-Jul-10 22:46:32

I did actually go for a week. The break was nice but I still did no housework. (maybe I should flounce again) grin

funnysinthegarden Thu 15-Jul-10 22:46:37

phew belle, the place wouldn't be the same without you smile

southeastastra Thu 15-Jul-10 22:50:31

i once flounced at 11pm then came back at 9 the next day grin

southeastastra Thu 15-Jul-10 22:51:03


belledechocolatefluffybunny Thu 15-Jul-10 22:54:12

[sniff] Thankyou. smile

I'll make a silent departure next time though.

recycledteen Sat 26-Feb-11 20:52:17

Hi. Didn't vote for the tories but just cos they're in power doesn't mean my life goes on hold. Lots more on MN to take my mind off housework and cluttered house. Plus if follow FlyLady just a wee bit, makes it easier to do a quicky sweep of living room in the few minutes before visitors come a-calling.

Re: Name change. I'd a few months away and couldn't remember my user name, far less password. Also had new email address cos other was filling with too much spam. Had to start all over again. Best thing all round for me.

Best wishes whatever you decide to do.


Ponders Sat 26-Feb-11 21:00:04

Simon Hoggart had a great comment today. It's not just that it's a Tory Govt, it's an utterly crap Tory Govt...

"I suspect that, like me, habitual Labour voters deep down fear that, while the Tories might be horrible, hard-faced exploiters of decent working people, they are reasonably competent at what they do. Labour has its heart in the right place, it believes in fairness and equality, but somehow it gets things wrong in the end. Look at the last government.
And now look at this one. Competent? It is a bit like watching the Keystone Kops effecting an arrest. This week's cack-handed rescue operation in Libya. The privatised forest debacle. The coming catastrophe of NHS reform. The complete failure to do anything about bank bonuses except whinge. Almost everything they touch comes to pieces in their hands. As I've probably said before, it's like watching Edward Scissorhands trying to make balloon animals."

Can any hand-on-heart Tories here argue with that? The rest of us were worried about them being efficient, but cruel. But they're not even efficient!! They've been rubbish so far - do admit.

BlackType Sat 26-Feb-11 21:01:38

Belle, I'm unspeakably fed up with it too. sad

usualsuspect Sat 26-Feb-11 21:05:08

this thread is months old

Ponders Sat 26-Feb-11 21:07:59

oh so it is!

(is belle still around then, 9 months later? wink)

belledechocchipcookie Sat 26-Feb-11 21:09:31

yup. Just name changed a little. smile

BlackType Sat 26-Feb-11 21:13:29

Oh yes. But I'm fed up with the tory-bashing all the same. sad

belledechocchipcookie Sat 26-Feb-11 21:16:17

I can't say that I'm impressed with them so far to be honest. I know that the country was left in one hell of a mess but they appear to be leaving the poor, vulnerable and disabled to fend for themselves. I had expected better from them.

Ponders Sat 26-Feb-11 21:38:43

hi, belle! smile

They do actually seem to be going out of their way to abandon the poor, vulnerable & disabled. It's not on, is it? sad

belledechocchipcookie Sat 26-Feb-11 21:49:36

Hi Ponders.

I remember David Cameron saying that he was not going to do this. I know he can't tell local authorities how to spend their money but the cuts seem to be very counter productive. If too many people lose their jobs then there's not going to be enough people spending which will damage the economy even further. All of these people will need to claim benefits and will be in danger of losing their homes.

Ponders Sat 26-Feb-11 22:00:25

Having been the parent of a disabled child he was supposed to have an understanding of the problems faced by the disabled sad

They are messing up bigtime & don't seem to know where to go from here to make things better. Labour did make a mess of some things, but at least they looked after the disadvantaged, & the NHS (IME) has been fabulous for the last few years & education pretty good too. The Coalition just seem to be changing for the sake of change & making everything worse.

LibDems will be wiped out after all this but unless Labour have another leadership election (since Ed the Red is useless confused) the Tories could well get in again, with a working majority, in 4 years time...& then what?


belledechocchipcookie Sat 26-Feb-11 22:05:50

There's no real competition. Labour overspent in a massive way, they shouldn't have won the election 5 years ago, their promises were just unsustainable. I blame Labour for screwing the country up. The only thing the conservatives can do is to borrow more money and spend on public services. The money needs to filter down into manufacturing because we're screwed if they don't. I can see us needing EU hand outs in a couple of years, the same as Ireland and Greece.

Hullygully Fri 23-Mar-12 12:19:31


cameron worked out real well, huh?

SamuelWestsMistress Wed 09-May-12 07:32:07

At least you can escape! I'm in Scotland where Alex Salmond is becoming more desirable because of the whole independence thing coming up. I believe it's all for the wrong reasons and I really don't like him! My husband is a farmer and we'd never be able to move without splitting the family so when independence comes (and it will!) I'm just going to have to lump it and may do the opposite of you OP and use Mumsnet as my "reality" hahaha!

Meglet Wed 09-May-12 07:44:18

Nice to see all our fears were unfounded and they weren't as bad as we thought they might be.

<Nose hits wall>.

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