January 2012: Non-Fiction: Andrea Dworkin's Intercourse

(68 Posts)
StewieGriffinsMom Wed 04-Jan-12 17:38:46

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SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan Wed 04-Jan-12 17:44:04

it is on the shelf and i've been meaning to read it. i've fallen off the women only authors wagon due to wanting to finally read some russian literature and having fallen in love with tolstoy.

will dig out intercourse and see if i can discipline myself back to some non-fiction.

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StewieGriffinsMom Fri 13-Jan-12 20:39:14

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StewieGriffinsMom Sun 15-Jan-12 08:54:22

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Dworkin Sun 22-Jan-12 15:27:07

I read this book last autumn, and I really enjoyed it. Might be around from 9.30 next Wednesday as I'm at an AGM.

Santa, be prepared for your love of Tolstoy to be shaken!

TBE Tue 24-Jan-12 15:08:36

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OrmIrian Tue 24-Jan-12 15:17:08

Brilliant book. IIRC hmm Been a long long time since I read it... Will find it and have a read.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:00:44

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:08:46

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:10:03

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:10:40

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:15:57

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:16:50

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:17:37

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:19:18

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:20:28

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:23:31

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:23:45

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:26:21

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:31:26

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:33:12

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:34:06

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:35:13

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:38:50

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:42:21

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darleneconnor Wed 25-Jan-12 21:43:02

I'll read that link after obem and come back.

TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:43:56

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 21:50:25

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:53:05

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 21:56:34

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:00:07

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:05:40

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:09:43

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:12:48

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:15:27

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:18:17

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:19:32

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:20:45

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:23:06

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:23:24

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:23:43

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:24:44

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:25:10

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:31:06

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:32:21

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:33:08

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:34:13

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:35:55

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:36:36

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darleneconnor Wed 25-Jan-12 22:37:20

What bothers me about this is that the '70% of women don't orgasm through intercourse' stat is accepted as some kind of universal truth. Shouldn't we be questioning it.

Maybe I've got cognitive dissonance but I've personally always experienced sex as me 'possessing', engulfing, consuming my partner. I don't identify with her passive, 'fucked' version of sex. But do concede that I don't think my experience is typical.

TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:39:58

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:40:21

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:43:36

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TBE Wed 25-Jan-12 22:45:49

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Jan-12 22:58:58

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darleneconnor Thu 26-Jan-12 00:01:46

I do agree that we should redefine sex to include non piv sex.

AyeRobot Sat 28-Jan-12 19:55:17

I have so much to say about this topic, but find I don't really have the words. I didn't have time to read the book, but have read Chp 7 on-line. When I first read that chapter (last summer in my garden - I can remember it so vividly), I spent at least half an hour reading and re-reading this part:

"He has to push in past boundaries. There is the outline of a body, distinct, separate, its integrity an illusion, a tragic deception, because unseen there is a slit between the legs, and he has to push into it. There is never a real privacy of the body that can coexist with intercourse: with being entered. The vagina itself is muscled and the muscles have to be pushed apart. The thrusting is persistent invasion. She is opened up, split down the center. She is occupied--physically, internally, in her privacy."

I'd never even thought about intercourse in that way and reading it sent all sorts of lightbulbs going off in my head, or rather loads of pieces of my internal jigsaw slotting into place if we want to keep with the imagery of the subject. So much of life is about boundaries and this boundary is one that is rarely spoken about. Thank you, Andrea.

TBE Sat 28-Jan-12 20:35:12

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AyeRobot Sat 28-Jan-12 20:55:13

I'd never thought of that either. Great point.

The dynamics of PIV vis a vis that boundary transgressing are fascinating. How different the experience must be for the one who enters compared to the one who is entered, no matter how equal the relationship and is so well described in the book. But never talked about. Except, I used to read some written porn once upon a time and it was always clear to me which was written by men and which by women. The descriptions of the moment of entry and the subsequent action was really different. So, it is written about, but never really discussed. Maybe cos we're all equal now and before women didn't count.

TBE Sat 28-Jan-12 21:13:41

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AyeRobot Sat 28-Jan-12 21:31:13

That's the thing, isn't it? And what Andrea is getting at with the boundary thing, I think. That integrity of self that is breached by penetration. I was delighted that force was taken out of the legal definition of rape because now the law recognises that it is the act of penetration without consent that is the crime. The methods to do that can be addressed by other laws.

I used the think of PIV as connection, and perhaps I will again, however in blunt terms, PIV is an act of breaching or being breached. Who is the empowered one in that scenario?

AyeRobot Sat 28-Jan-12 21:33:51

And yes to risks - intercourse is more risky for women. It is so obvious. But we're all equal now.

<twitch>

TBE Sat 28-Jan-12 21:54:37

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AyeRobot Sat 28-Jan-12 22:12:36

Just read the NYT article and Lishra's rebuttal (and started a thread).

Penis power. Makes the world go round.

TBE Sat 28-Jan-12 22:32:56

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Dworkin Mon 30-Jan-12 10:21:00

I too felt a universal solidarity with women everywhere after reading this book. It's a book that requires re-reading and it's timeless.

Dworkin writes about Sado-Masochism or specifically the Marquis de Sade in Pornography - Men Possessing Women.

I have orgasm with penetration but I have stronger orgasms without it. I've also had penetration when I wasn't in the mood, or during periods of lower libido. Dworkin discusses this well. Dworkin never took the role of speak nicely little girl and we might listen to you. She preferred to rage and shout despite knowing that she would be seen as hysterical and a harpy. Dworking was outraged, rightly so, that, in marriage, women were seen as possessions and that rape within marriage was not consisdered an offense. In the UK rape in marriage was only recognised by the law in 1991, and it takes more than a generation to rid society of percieved roles.

It's a book that should be read by all men.

Dworkin Mon 30-Jan-12 11:21:26

Here is a link in which you can download all Dworkin's books

radfem.org/dworkin/

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