Mumsnet Talk

in terms of the geography, I think it's basically the area from Bridlington south to Hull (Kingsport) but she squishes it up a bit to make it smaller.

yes Alemci, there are a few minor characters who didn't make it into the tv version and one of them is the insurance salesman who is plunged into poverty.

There's a very touching scene where he has to go to the assistance committee for money and Carne is on the committee having just tried and failed to borrow some money from his brother himself and the man is all ashamed and embarrassed and Carne makes a joke about it and makes him feel better.

I like the current cover <despite it being the wrong part of Yorkshire>

More people would buy it if it were in the Penguin Classics edition though. I enjoy looking at book cases in the houses of pretentious people where they clearly own all the "classics" but have obviously never read any of them.

I read this 20 years' ago. I know the area where it is set. I believe it is humberside?

I think the poverty was worse than it was portrayed in the tv production but I may be wrong. There was a man on a bike selling insurance if i remember.

it needs to be printed in one of those Penguin Classics editions with footnotes. There's an intro by Andrew Davies in the BBC books edition that I've got but it's mostly about Holtby's life.

I wonder why it was out of fashion.

I hate missing the references to other, possibly brilliant, books.

The level of corruption here is quite impressive; rather like the council is deliberately aiming for the Guiness World Book of Records award on the issue.

I only read it because of the tv adaptation. It was one of the ones republished by Virago in the 1980s so it must have fallen out of fashion before then.

there are probably loads of references we're missing because we're not from the 1930s!
Even so, it feels completely up-to-the-minute. Especially the local government corruption.

I'd never come across her before you suggested it.

I wonder how many brilliant women writers at the top of their game are left behind.

you definitely get a sense of a writer who is at the top of her game. Handling so many threads and complex characters is impressive as well.

(what else would she have written if she'd lived? )

The subtlety of some of the references is fabulous. Its' one of the reasons i hated A.S Byatt's The Children's Book. It was just an unsubtle, poorly executed attempt to do what Holtby has done; seemingly without effort.

it would be an excellent one for Book Club.

oh I think it was definitely a trope.

Actually, the Cold Comfort Farm reference is a sort of clue because it shows she was a writer who knowingly made references to other books, expecting the reader to pick up on them.

I've still not finished Jane Eyre. It made me incredibly cross. May need to add it for book club so I actually finish it.

this reminds me I must reread Jane Eyre with this in mind - the parallels were clearly deliberate (heroine being teacher of landowner's daughter by mad wife, Rochester-like hero on big black horse).

I don't think so, but he's so wrapped up in his own problems (which admittedly are considerable) and also he's used to women admiring him, he probably doesn't ever notice unless he's after a shag.
He would be a relatively unattractive character (seen dispassionately) if it weren't for his love for Midge - which of course is what makes Sarah change her view of him.

Well, that its an obvious thing: loving strong ungovernable landowners like Heathcliffe but that she plays with it. Inverts what should have been obvious [if you read Jane Eyre and think its romantic]

The relationship with Carne is very odd. Does he realise how she feels for him [haven't read that bit yet]?

using what as a trope? sorry, so many ideas flying around!

<I read the last 20 pages. Just in case>

I think its quite subversive. I actually checked the publication date. Twice.

Do you think it was on purpose? That she was using it as trope rather than not realising what she was doing?

Mrs Beddows' love for Carne is one of the most interesting things about the book I think. There's the suggestion that she loved him too much, it was sort of an indulgence she allowed herself, and it makes her a much more rounded character the way her love for him is ambiguous, partly seeing him as a son, partly admiring him physically.
I didn't pick up on the socialism/feminism parallel there but you're right.

it's interesting that for such a feminist book, Holtby picks such a stereotypical, dominant man riding a big black horse, type of love interest.

of course she subverts it by NOT getting it consummated and then him dying (sorry about spoilers Stewie) but there seemed to be something slightly depressing in the idea that even these modern women go weak at the knees at the sight of a tall strong ungovernable landowner.

I know she tries to make it a lot subtler than that though.

Did you not think it read that way? That Holtby was pointing out how important the concerns of the women really were, particularly in terms of healthcare, but Mrs Beddows was more concerned with whether or not Carne gets better.

I'm not that far into the book.

Have gotten to the Lydia Holly bit, and yes, he was a man who deserved to be castrated for ruining his daughter and killing his wife.