August Feminist Book Club

(245 Posts)
StewieGriffinsMom Mon 02-Aug-10 10:53:24

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StewieGriffinsMom Mon 02-Aug-10 13:25:27

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Prolesworth Mon 02-Aug-10 13:36:30

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SoriaMoria Mon 02-Aug-10 21:00:23

Not read either but def interested. Will try to check them out before you decide but happy to be guided.

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wastingaway Tue 03-Aug-10 11:31:05

Both look good to me.

Pogleswood Tue 03-Aug-10 12:59:08

I'd prefer Living Dolls.
Did you have any ideas on which work of fiction to read ,Prolesworth?

Prolesworth Tue 03-Aug-10 13:12:47

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tabouleh Tue 03-Aug-10 14:02:51

Will vote for Living Dolls because I already have it!

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 03-Aug-10 14:30:02

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TeddyBare Tue 03-Aug-10 14:51:31

I've just finished Living Dolls and loved it. Looking forward to discussing it.

littleomar Wed 04-Aug-10 19:41:25

how does it work, if that's not a silly question? do you all meet up in real life or is it an online thing that anyone can join? (half way through living dolls, trying to jolt brain out of maternity leave torpor)

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 04-Aug-10 19:48:03

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So it is Living Dolls? Am doing the UK citizenship test and am so bored in August, so will be good to look forward to discuss something smile

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 04-Aug-10 22:51:06

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 04-Aug-10 23:50:52

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NickOfTime Thu 05-Aug-10 00:14:58

have you read the yellow wallpaper, proles? (my username on here was charlotteperkinsgilman at one point i think grin)

will order living dolls - can't promise to log on due to timezone differences, but hopefully will manage to be around. look forward to reading the thread even if i miss it smile

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 05-Aug-10 07:57:50

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Prolesworth Thu 05-Aug-10 09:00:07

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StewieGriffinsMom Thu 12-Aug-10 18:38:51

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msrisotto Thu 12-Aug-10 18:42:52

I'm in hopefully, i've read half of it and am 2/3rds through writing my dissertation but i'd like to discuss what i've read so far.

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StewieGriffinsMom Tue 17-Aug-10 17:30:24

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tabouleh Thu 19-Aug-10 20:06:39

Bumping for newcomers/lurkers - there is probably time for a quick Amazon order and a speed read of the book before Wednesday!

SGM - oh wow well done on inviting Natasha - does that mean she lurks here?

LackingInspiration Thu 19-Aug-10 20:23:55

Gah! Not for me - going away on Saturday. Back on Weds but no way Amazon will get it to me in time! Poo! Wonder if they've got it in my local Waterstones...

KindersTristers Fri 20-Aug-10 09:09:03

I have ordered this. I will try to read and join in on Wednesday.

Its been very busy here and I've missed a lot of these (although I have read some of the books).

If I'm not here then rl has got in the way, but I'm hoping to have something to contribute. smile

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tabouleh Mon 23-Aug-10 22:42:28

bump - Living Dolls discussion will be on Wednesday 25 August at 9pm

tabouleh Mon 23-Aug-10 22:43:48
ElephantsAndMiasmas Mon 23-Aug-10 22:53:03

you're a gem tabouleh

TerritorialMosquito Tue 24-Aug-10 01:51:34

i have tried to buy this book all over this ridiculous backwater of a country i live in, and i can't find it anywhere - every flipping bookshop is telling me they can't get it.

apparently the only ones available now are through amazon marketplace, you can't get a copy for love nor money anywhere else. gah.

<wanders off to bang head against wall>

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 24-Aug-10 10:58:25

come along to the bookclub anyway - it'll still be interesting and you can read it afterwards - where are you?

TerritorialMosquito Tue 24-Aug-10 15:38:14

i've ordered it from amazon.uk now, but it won't get here in time. i'm only in canada, but for some reason the bookstores aren't carrying it/ can't get it at the moment...

never mind - i think the woman in my favourite book shop was interested anyway, having spent twenty minutes trying to work out if she could get it, she said 'but it looks really interesting!'

ah well. good job i have amazon prime wink should've just got it from there in the first place. <sigh>

i did order a few others whilst i was at it... grin

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 24-Aug-10 18:51:37

phew - you should keep buying things from the nice lady! You might have a friend there.

I thought Canada wasn't just bears and moose any more, but they can't call themselves a civilisation until they have a feminist book section if you ask me <sips port>

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skintbint Wed 25-Aug-10 16:31:44

ah, that might be it then! grin

i thought so too, elephants. suspect i might have more luck in the big cities, but i'd already driven for four hours just to get to that bookshop! (nb - we didn't go just for the bookshop, lol.)

amazon. but canada post is a whole other story... civilised it ain't.

she's a very lovely bookshop lady. now i have 'interested' her (i suspect she doesn't get many queries of that type wink) i will work on her until she starts ordering a feminist shelf. wink

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 20:51:04

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LeninGrad Wed 25-Aug-10 21:02:25

Feeding the baby, will watch you all discussing.

Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 21:04:25

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sethstarkaddersmum Wed 25-Aug-10 21:05:12

Hi all.
I read it a few months ago and thought it was terrific, haven't reread.

It covers a lot of the same ground as The Equality Illusion but the style - more journalisty first person, descriptive, subjective - works well.

Didn't NW write one of those 'we don't need feminism any more' books in the early 90s but has now changed her mind?

wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 21:07:15

<not only lurking, but bumping too>

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:08:16

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:09:30

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 21:09:40

Hello! Yes I read it a few months ago and have dipped back into it in the last few weeks.

NW wrote the New Feminism (which I haven't read) and apparently she was celebrating the achievements won during the 2nd wave.

However she now feel there is an equality illusion and that no one anticipated the rise of the hypersexual culture.

sethstarkaddersmum Wed 25-Aug-10 21:09:40

thanks Swallowedafly.
Is her earlier work worth reading?

wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 21:10:49

How old is your DD, SGM?

The mothers at playgroup sound a leetle insecure about their choices.

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msrisotto Wed 25-Aug-10 21:12:00

Maybe it was just that she was preaching to the converted but I wasn't massively impressed with the (admittedly only first half) book. I think it was because I was just getting a bit frustrated saying "I KNOW"! to the examples of sexism.....Maybe I should get DP to read it though because he just doesn't know, so it might teach him something....

wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 21:12:41

I haven't read the book yet - but will - so sorry if I ask a silly question.
Has she any theories as to how the hypersexual culture came about?

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Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 21:14:06

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 21:14:12

I liked the beginning of the book when she described the reality of the sex industry, lapdancing etc because I thought she really outlined the problems with the industry and its effects on women, I also liked the fact that Walter admitted she'd been wrong about her lipstick feminism/we've got all the power now book back in the late nineties.

Then she started being equivocal and saying things like there's nothing inherently degrading about poledancing or stripping and that they can be "sexy", and still criticised feminists like Dworkin and MacKinnon whose analysis of the sex industry and male sexual exploitation has not been surpassed by any other feminists. If Natasha W. can admit she was wrong, why can't she also admit they were right? Anti-porn feminists saw everything that has happened in the past ten years with regards to the sex industry, pornography and sexual objectification of women nearly thirty years ago now. They gave us the tools to analyse it and they deserve acknowledgement, not yet more shoving to the margins and dismissal.

When I first read Dworkin in the nineties there was no other criticism of pornography around that I could access. Walter's book in the late nineties did nothing to rectify that fact as far as I know, and even now she's still being wishy washy about the whole thing. It's a shame because I feel like there's a lot more she could do, if she was just willing to get angry and to feel the injustice that women are being subjected to. I certainly felt angry reading the interviews she did with the woman working in prostitution and the woman who'd been in lapdancing.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:14:21

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 21:15:14

I think the big themes which made me think were:

choices - the assumption that choices are free choices

and

also biological determinism - this erroneous idea that there is lots of evidence that girls like pink/princesses/talking and boys like to be rough/dirty/play with cars etc.

I think that the book argues convincingly that whilst there are some average differences - (some due to nature but some which are magnified by society/nurture) in fact these average differences are small compared to the large differences amongst equals of the same sex.

LeninGrad Wed 25-Aug-10 21:15:21

What wukter just asked.

dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 21:16:11

The biological determinism section of the book was excellent though. It's about time someone challenged it, although goodness knows why we have to, given that feminists did all this work in the sixties and seventies.

sethstarkaddersmum Wed 25-Aug-10 21:16:44

MsRisotto - I had the opposite reaction that you had to the familiarity of it all - I kept coming across examples that had bugged me at the time like the York University poledancing club or the film Zac and Miri Make a Porno, and thinking 'Thank goodness! Someone else thinks this is wrong too!!!!'

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Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 21:17:41

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Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 21:17:59

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msrisotto Wed 25-Aug-10 21:18:01

"Then she started being equivocal and saying things like there's nothing inherently degrading about poledancing or stripping and that they can be "sexy", and still criticised feminists like Dworkin and MacKinnon whose analysis of the sex industry and male sexual exploitation has not been surpassed by any other feminists. If Natasha W. can admit she was wrong, why can't she also admit they were right? "

It isn't admitting anything if she doesn't agree that they are right, and the assumption that Dworkin & MacKinnon's analysis is the best, is a matter of opinion, not fact.

It does, however seem to contradict a more general anti-objectification message though.

skintbint Wed 25-Aug-10 21:18:21

<lurking but it's late lunch so i'm in and out...>

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:19:04

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 21:19:34

Yep in the first para of chapter 5 she says:

"Almost everything which has been discussed here so far is connected, in one way or another, to the new accessibility and expansion of pornography."

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msrisotto Wed 25-Aug-10 21:21:50

Seth - I understand your different reaction. Maybe I just find the reality of it too depressing for words....

dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 21:22:05

Everything we say here is an opinion msrisotto. Saying what I said is a matter of opinion a way of putting my post down without engaging it. You could say that to every post here, so why single out mine.

I'd say that the measure of how good analysis is whether it actually relates to the world as it is, and whether it is a predictor of what will happen. From that point of view MacKinnon's and Dworkin's analysis wins hands down compared to the empowerfulment "women can wear lipstick because we're all equal now" brand of feminist analysis.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:22:17

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msrisotto Wed 25-Aug-10 21:23:59

Because I thought we were having a discussion Dittany? I don't know if my post came across as aggressive or something but I didn't mean it to and didn't deserve an aggressive response.

tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 21:24:16

I created a thread here the other day which contains all those links form the last chapter.

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msrisotto Wed 25-Aug-10 21:25:52

Agreed TBE.

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 21:27:30

But that wasn't a discussion msrissoto. You weren't putting forward your own opinion, you were just trying to put down mine, which was aggressive.

What do you think of my point about the measure of good analysis?

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:27:36

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 21:29:39

I think that the area which I would like to campaign on most strongly is to raise awareness of children's access to porn.

In a study 90% of 13 and 14 year old boys and 70% of girls had viewed pornography.

Lots of other shocking stats.

There doesn't seem to be anyone campaigning on this issue? There is the report into the sexualisation of young people and the Tanya Byron internet safety report but I think there needs to be a campaign so that porn is an "opt-in" service which adults in charge of the broadband supply can control.

Also a campaign to let young people know that most of this porn is not normal loving sex IYSWIM.

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LeninGrad Wed 25-Aug-10 21:30:36

Yep TBE, that's my concern too.

msrisotto Wed 25-Aug-10 21:31:39

Well if I was putting down your opinion, you were putting down Natasha Walters' opinion so we're both as bad as each other.

Lets not detract from the conversation anyway.

LeninGrad Wed 25-Aug-10 21:31:43

xpost, I was talking about the hypersexualised culture and it getting embedded/ internalised/ assumed normal from a younger and younger age.

tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 21:32:00

"someone who doesn't know anything about feminism can pick it up and have the scales fall from their eyes." - how about a pact that we all give the book to at least 2 family members for Xmas!!

I will do some links for the Equality Illusion and the F-Word when I get a chance.

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:33:24

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msrisotto Wed 25-Aug-10 21:34:02

I wonder if the public will ever turn their backs on pornography, it seems a long way off if the media is anything to go by.

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sethstarkaddersmum Wed 25-Aug-10 21:36:13

great idea Tabouleh, I can also think of one or two people who would read it.

tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 21:36:57

I think a teen-friendly site with a slightly "cleaner" version of the "make love not porn" messages would be good?

Also along the lines of the "stickering" of posters I was wonderng about a feminist invasion of some teenage forums linking to teenage feminist blogs/resources?

I am a governor of a primary school so I am going to see how I can use my influence there.

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 21:38:27

She was putting down MacKinnon and Dworkin et al, who once again have given the best tools for analysis we have about pornography and the sex industry. There's a serious point here - by marginalising feminists who have actually stood against the porn industry and created huge political and intellectual challenges to it, she's is not helping either women or feminism. I was making a political point, I didn't see one in what you were saying to me msrisotto, so no I don't think "we're as bad as each other".

Most women, even feminists are frightened and negative about feminists who have done so much to stand against male sexual exploitation of women. It would be like Indians who wanted to end British colonial rule distancing themselves from Ghandi.

It's disappointing because there's a lot to appreciate in this book.

LeninGrad Wed 25-Aug-10 21:38:30

I was thinking that porn taps into an alienation, a dulling of sensation, I mean god a lot of the hardcore stuff is so brutal that you have to be pretty desensitised to watch it I'd have thought. As alienation increases in society I think it will just get worse and there will be even more of it.

Those producing it will always be looking to get a bigger market too and so will aim to get people buying it at a younger and younger age, more disposable income.

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:38:58

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wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 21:40:01

Porn is like a drug isn't it.
You need more and more and ever more extreme. Can't see society willingly weaning itself off it, tbh.

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sethstarkaddersmum Wed 25-Aug-10 21:42:17

I wonder whether the anti-porn movement is going to come primarily from the feminists of the next generation - our dds, even. If I was a teenage girl and knew what porn was like I would not be wanting to sleep with boys who used it. A whole bunch of girls saying 'we don't sleep with boys who use porn' could have an impact on the boys who want sex....
Also for people our age/a bit younger, using porn felt a bit rebellious, which is part of its appeal. For the next generation perhaps not using porn will feel rebellious.

tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 21:43:21

Did you all see the link to a World Service interview with NW from earlier this week. It is available to download as a podcast.

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 21:43:50

It's not really "society" that watches pornography though is it? I thought that was the other part missing from LD - talking about where the demand is coming from.

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:45:46

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LeninGrad Wed 25-Aug-10 21:47:17

Actually now I'm thinking it's not about desensitisation but the feeling of power, remembering the scenes out of American Psycho. Anyway, yep the porn market knows to go after young men with disposable incomes.

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wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 21:48:39

It's quite a lot of men.
Many teenage boys.
Some women, some who don't see anything wrong with it, some who do and don't like to say. That's a lot of people.

Plus the Nuts/Sunday Sport at eye level.

As well as most prime time tv apparently MUST allude to sexuality to some degree, whether it's warranted or not.

It's so so pervasive in society

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msrisotto Wed 25-Aug-10 21:52:07

God help young girls then because young boys are sending each other porn on their mobiles. Maybe sex ed needs to take a slant on what real bodies are like!

wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 21:53:38

And that the scarey thing, TBE.
All these teenagers who have seen porn before thay have even had a real life snog.
What chance have they to explore their own authentic sexualities?
They won't be learning from each other. They narrow little roles will be defined for them.

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:54:56

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Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 21:55:07

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wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 21:55:42

yy to 'a performance' SAF.

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 21:56:16

She was anti-Dworkin Stewie. I'll just quote her:

"From the attempts of Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon, the American lawyer [actually she's a feminist legal scholar, one of the most cited in the English language] to legislate against pornography, to the demonstrations by British feminist groups at Soho, feminists made it known very clearly that they believed pornography was the enemy of liberation.

..... it became clear that the classic feminist critique of pornography left somthing important out: it assumed that women never take any pleasure in pornography. This is clearly wrong. There are intelligent women, choosing and thinking for themselves, who do enjoy watching pornography, and some enjoy making it and acting in it too; we can no longer deny the intense sexual power of pornography for women as well as men.

Now that many women have talked openly about the pleasures of pornography themselves, there is no point in trying to return to that classic feminist critique that set all women on one side of pornography and all men on the other side of pornography. For some feminists that means that rather than arguing against the very existence of porn they are looking for more equality within a world already saturated with pornography".

I don't think Dworkin and MacKinnon or any other anti-porn feminist ever said that women couldn't and didn't enjoy pornography, so she's created a straw man right there, and because of that she isn't able to engage with their arguments but instead is able to completely dismiss them. Whilst at the same time however rightly decrying the return of sexism and describing the pornification of our culture. And I don't understand why she's refusing to make the connection.

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 21:58:07

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 21:58:43

I think we need to be campaigning against porn, along with Object. We also need to be fighting for the Nordic model of legislating prostitution and the Icelandic model of outlawing strip clubs. Women and women's bodies shouldn't be for sale, that's the bottom line.

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 22:01:14

I would call completely misrepresenting someone's arguments as being anti-them or at least anti their political arguments which is obviously the important point in this discussion. For some feminists there is never any care to get what they say about Dworkin right, as long as they are being negative about her, it's not a problem.

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:01:51

Did you know that MNHQ is consulting on the next Mumsnet campaign:

"Following on from our Let Girls Be Girls campaign, we're thinking about what we might do next in the area of campaigning against premature sexualisation. We know that many of you are concerned about explicitly sexual imagery on the covers of lads' mags and the Sunday Sport, particularly when these publications are displayed at child's-eye level. We also know that some of you are worried about the ease with which children can access frankly pornographic imagery - some of it violent and disturbing - on the internet, whether on PCs or mobile phones.

We'd like to canvass Mumsnetters' views on these and related issues."

That thread has stagnated a bit so perhaps those who haven't been on it can jump on and we can add some of these ideas which we've been discussing here?

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 22:04:51

Dworkin and MacKinnon created a civil rights ordinance where people who had been harmed by pornography could sue pornographers. Something similar in this country might be the place to start.

tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:07:01

dittany "I think we need to be campaigning against porn, along with Object."

Does Object campaign against porn or just against the objectification of women in society and porn.

<<suspect you're going to tell me it's all one and the same grin>>

Is it possible to have porn which doesn't objectify women? Are some forms of porn better than others? (I have to reveal my experience of porn here = part of 1 movie in a hotel with DH years ago - I didn't like th lack of plot line grin.)

wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 22:07:41

Those are my thoughts too, SAF.
However pornstars are beautiful, no?
Those against it are only bitter old hags, jealous of their beauty and liberation, and who'd want to ride an ugly old hag (ie an ordinary woman)?

Depressing

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:08:28

TBE - yes you're right the thread did go off a bit.

Perhaps on second thoughts I will start a thread here and get lots of Feminist views and we will sit back and wait for the hmm posts and then I can link it back in for MNHQ?

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Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 22:10:43

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 22:10:56

"It's hard to be a feminist and not feel obliged to denigrate Dworkin - like 'look, I'm not one of those crazy feminists who wears dungarees and says all men are rapists' type-of-thing."

Who do you think it is you are trying to reassure TBE (not trying to have a go, serious question).

Don't you ever think that maybe there's been all that propaganda against her (she wasn't crazy she was an incredible intellectual and she didn't think all men were rapists) because she was saying something important, something that if women took it on board things might start to change.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 22:12:13

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:16:39

For those interested in finding out more about "hypersexual" culture the Report into the Sexualisatoin of Young People report is well worth a read.

I want to know when the new Government will be responding to this...

I fear it is losing momentum following the media coverage of the report at the time.

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Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 22:19:37

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 22:19:39

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:23:06

SGM - how did "Friends" normalise porn? I watched a fair few episodes at the time but nothing is ringing a bell?

wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 22:23:43

Good point about Friends, SGM. I'm of that generation that 'grew up' with Friends, they didn't think porn was any big deal (but they abhorred smoking).

lubbermummy Wed 25-Aug-10 22:24:26

i really like this book. I have some friends from my past life that gave me the "-sex work empowers me-" speech and i could elaborate, but they all just seemed like shell shock victims on many levels. i've made it to page 64, so not terribly far, but most of it this evening (i read slow and left glasses at work... AGAIN!)

The book really hits home for me. a few months (or was it a year or two?) ago in dundee we saw a minivan decked out in everything playboy pink, full of children, it was the wierdest thing, and when all these kids popped out of it, i thought, "god, dont they know the damage they are doing??" No-one should be primed for that industry especially children.

i was away from the UK for 20 years in Uptite, USA, but was blown away with the "cor, blimy, titsoot!" "carry-on-perving" culture we have. it seems worse than the benny hill days... That, and that we don't manufacture anything, and that the roads are full of holes. its bizzar that things that were pretty unacceptible a few years ago are completely commonplace now, and not for the better.

wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 22:25:39

From my memory tabouleh, it was all winky nudgey the boys like a little "Dawn and Summer Gently Spank Each Other" or others of that ilk, while the girls rolled their eyes indulgently.
Boys will be boys, eh

dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 22:25:58

We need for women to be regarded as human.

Female sexual degradation is regarded as entertainment, for men. That's because women aren't seen as human, we're seen as body parts to use.

How could anybody want to see a woman fucked into prolapse unless they were a sadist?

Sorry for the misunderstanding TBE. I'm just antsy because I feel like Walter should know better. If she doesn't want to engage with them, which she's within her rights to do, she should keep them out of the conversation completely, but to misrepresent them and say that Dworkin and MacKinnon's time has passed when their time is right now given what is going on with the sexual exploitation and use of women across the globe, is just completely wrong. Makes me wonder if she's actually read them or read them recently at least - not MacKinnon I'm thinking or she'd have a bit more knowledge that to call her simply a lawyer.

LeninGrad Wed 25-Aug-10 22:26:06

That report looks good, thanks for the links, I'd heard it referenced but hadn't read it.

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 22:27:08

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wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 22:30:10

Thinking of which, a lot of the comedy of that programme was based on gender, conforming to stereotypes, how hilarious gently humourous is that, but subverting them is comedy gold. A man who (ineptly) gets a spray tan! Whatever next.

Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 22:30:54

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:31:12

re Friends - I guess these references just passed me by at the time...

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 22:31:50

I've been unable to keep up with this and have probably missed the boat now. I have only read the first half (whereas I devoured The Equality Illusion pretty much in one), and I like the critique of the porn/soft-porn/lap-dancing etc etc culture. It's powerul stuff. I still feel she is a bit of an equivocator (can't spell that word, if it even is a word), she seems to dilly dally around issues somewhat.

Inspired to plough into second half though if she's taking down evoshite.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 22:32:10

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LeninGrad Wed 25-Aug-10 22:32:25

Who Papadopolous? I do think a major problem is people just do not see the problem here. Did you see the recommendations on the report about training and policies on gender equality in schools, it's needed but no-one will ensure it happens.

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lubbermummy Wed 25-Aug-10 22:33:34

im just glad there are more reasons to hate friends. i hated that show so much i changed the lyrics to "seems like your gerbils stuck in richard gear"

dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 22:34:29

There were stories that the writers room at Friends was a hotbed of misogyny so maybe the porn references in it aren't that surprising.

I don't think most women have much of a clue about how awful the stuff is that men and boys are watching. Even LD pretty much skips over the actual contents although one of her interviewees talks about women's anuses being stretched and damaged as something that people want to see.

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:36:21

lubbermummy - totally agree with you about how things which were unaccepatable are now commonplace - it is horrific to think where we will end up - if Feminists don't start/continue to make a stand.

Elephants - I think probably for a intro to feminism the Equality Illusion first and then Living Dolls second. (Think DH will read one to see what I've been talking about - it's important to get him to read the one which will make the most impact on this thoughts).

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skintbint Wed 25-Aug-10 22:37:26

porn?
i remember them watching baywatch, but that was more of a cultural joke, no?

<going to have to look it up, now, don't remember porn at all...>

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 22:38:12

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lubbermummy Wed 25-Aug-10 22:38:34

lubbermummy= butterflyeffect dh.

dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 22:40:07

There was a whole episode about how they got free porn on cable and they couldn't stop watching it skintbint.

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lubbermummy Wed 25-Aug-10 22:40:15

she beat me by 2 seconds!

tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:41:01

"the recommendations on the report about training and policies on gender equality in schools" - these were what I posted onto this thread.

"no-one will ensure it happens" - we (feminists) will!

I am inspired to write to someone to find out when the Government is due to respond to this report and I will try to publicise the education recommendations on a couple of forums for school governors and maybe TES.

skintbint Wed 25-Aug-10 22:41:05

thanks dittany - obviously missed that one...

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 22:41:08

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skintbint Wed 25-Aug-10 22:42:20

quite - <and never watched it>

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 22:43:27

I don't remember the porn either skintbint, but I was only about 12 at the time.

The thing is, most porn is not about women's pleasure (massive shock eh?) but about men's pleasure in hurting women. The really sick stuff (about which I know next to nothing, and don't specially want to as I have a problem forgetting) is not that outlandish once you've seen lots of other things that clearly "in real life" would be unpleasant or painful. My instinct is that very very very few women would actually enjoy deepthroating, anal, double penetration etc, if it wasn't normalised in porn. But now it is normalised girls are going to grow up feeling that they have to lump it because that is "normal".

When did it become the case that instead of teenage boys being desperate and competing for the attention of the girls, the onus started being on the girls to "compete" for who would do the most porny stuff to get/keep the boys?

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:44:08

<<night everyone - need to get my rest in for all the tasks I've created for myself in this thread - eg links - MN campaign thread here - activism! look forward to catching up with the thread tomorrow>>

dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 22:44:50

I don't really see how not talking about what is actually the problem helps anyone SGM. It wasn't even her who was saying it, it was her interviewee. She didn't contextualise what he'd said and say "yes this is correct and x,y, z are also very common now too".

She didn't have a problem in spelling out very clearly what was going on in lapdancing and prostitution. It was just when she got to pornography that suddenly the descriptions faltered to nothing.

I also had a big issue with the idea that the problem with porn is that it threatens "erotic relationships", well it probably does but it isn't really the issue.

tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:45:02

cross post! yes - I am creating work - but I am loving being active as a Feminist!

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tabouleh Wed 25-Aug-10 22:45:25

cross post! yes - I am creating work - but I am loving being active as a Feminist!

skintbint Wed 25-Aug-10 22:45:27

tbe - what second wave text would you want to reread for the next book club? (now i've bought all the new ones, obv...)

lubbermummy Wed 25-Aug-10 22:45:30

i fear for our daughter, and equally, our sons. It does seem that socially and moraly, we are becoming like "the market". "let the market drive it" we are told, but its so winner-take-all, and the market does not always make good descisions. I am not the paragon of morality, but it seems that things are happening that make me blush and that really worries me.
If morally and socially, we are going to foster the winner-take-all attitued, where is there room for nice respectful people? I dont know if we can just blame friends though, i think yuppies have a lot to answer for, and celebs too. Buterfly has this great book on celebreity, and i think it ties in, especaily with living dolls. we seem to be idolizing talentless vacuous numpties with fake bodies.

Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 22:45:54

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 22:46:41

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wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 22:46:57

Sorry for continuing to drag the conversation down the Friends cul-de-sac but look at the composite ideal woman.
Monica - likes cleaning, cooking and babies.
Rachel - likes shopping and gossiping.
Phoebe - 'kooky' and makes constant coy references to adventurous sex-life (ie nympho but not embarrassing in public about it)

So which one's your favourite?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 22:48:50

I liked the girlfriend of Ross's ex-wife.

Was like what TBE?

skintbint Wed 25-Aug-10 22:49:32

<although don't start me on the 'used to be a fat girl' line>

CompulsiveNamechanger Wed 25-Aug-10 22:52:34

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CompulsiveNamechanger Wed 25-Aug-10 22:53:11

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dittany Wed 25-Aug-10 22:53:47

I didn't say we dont' talk about it either SGM. I was talking about LV - as a chapter on porn in a feminist book it came across as very weak and I didnt' see the mention of anal sex as a literary technique, more of an afterthought that hadn't been edited out. If I've ever been quoting feminists or pro feminists to persuade people about porn I've either used Dworkin or Robert Jensen's piece "A Cruel Edge" which goes into great detail about the contents of modern porn. Both of them are effective.

CompulsiveNamechanger Wed 25-Aug-10 23:00:47

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ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 23:01:06

not sure who you are CN, but hi anyway!

Actually I think there's a lot in the idea that starting having sex later generally goes along with a "healthy" sex life where it's about enjoyment for both people. Of my friends who started having sex really young (11+), a lot of them were doing competitive blowjob-giving, anal, sleeping with all the boys in a group - that kind of thing. Only a couple of them seemed to actually enjoy it, it was all about the boys and what they wanted (which possibly explains why they were having sex at that age at all).

CompulsiveNamechanger Wed 25-Aug-10 23:01:38

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Prolesworth Wed 25-Aug-10 23:03:01

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 23:03:38

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ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 23:05:45

I know Proles, and then slagging off the children girls who didn't do a very good job of it

Didn't have the confidence at that age to know what was so very wrong with that going on, just knew it was.

CompulsiveNamechanger Wed 25-Aug-10 23:06:13

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ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 23:10:52

Nice that that article is in the Life & Style: Women section. Because it's definitely women that need to learn more about the damaging effects of porn hmm

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 23:10:53

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ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 23:17:03

There is such a massive problem, as that article says, with conflating porn and sex. They are different, the behaviours and norms are different, the "audience" is different (in that sex shouldn't have one, just participants), the fact that money is involved etc.

Why do so many men get off on watching women get hurt? Or possibly hurt ("fucked hard", double penetrated etc)?

wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 23:21:43

Do you think the old virgin/whore dichotomy is still around for teens? It seems like putting on a sexual 'performance' (thx SAF) is the route to popularity these days. It's a while since I read Female Chauvinist Pigs but I think Leve made that point there.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 23:24:32

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 23:29:02

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wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 23:35:02

It's 'a woman's right to shoes'
types wukter, lounging on bed in vest and knickers

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ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 23:39:14

did you make that up wukter?

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 23:39:46

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wukter Wed 25-Aug-10 23:42:57

No I didn't SAF - wish i did but it's an actual title of an episode. Laugh or cry?
Spot on SGM.

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StewieGriffinsMom Wed 25-Aug-10 23:47:44

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ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 23:52:59

oi wukter it was meee that asked <attention seeking> - you're serious? OMFG. Hated SATC. At least, it was alright with the sound off because you saw lots of women with careers and lives talking to and supporting each other. Only problem was with the sound up, you realised it was vacuous capitalist sexist shite.

Interestingly, instead of learning from porn like other healthy-minded young men, my first boyfriend admitted that he learned about women from SATC <weeps>

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ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 25-Aug-10 23:58:43

oh thanks sAf, I was just getting that out of my head for the night

wukter Thu 26-Aug-10 00:07:39

Sorry Elephants.
Yes it's true, whole premise of storyline is MOM vs fashionista.
RE SATC:It really vacillated so much between thought provoking and vacuity. I didn't watch the series in order, just the reruns, so I can't really chart its highs and lows.

<just discovered my MN Feminism Section niche - halfarsed 90's tv critic>

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 26-Aug-10 00:10:10

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wukter Thu 26-Aug-10 00:14:46

Right enough, StewieGriffinsMom.
One thing I really liked was when Miranda had the baby. Body image, single parenthood, isolation, anxiety, all those things were covered so well. But then someone went to a fashion show and everything was fun again (not accurate about fashion show but yswim)

skintbint Thu 26-Aug-10 02:05:58

oooooh, i'm not good at this stuff. i've never watched a single episode of satc, let alone the film/s?

<fondly remembers days gone by when i used to quote blockbuster films in essays about gender. <sigh>>

i must watch more tv. grin

i know you're all sleeping, but wanted to put a final mark on the thread so i know where to come back to once i've finally got the book in my mitts. grin

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