London strip clubs face the axe

(47 Posts)
MisterDarsey Wed 14-Sep-11 12:08:18

Help to get 11 strip clubs in Tower Hamlets closed down by responding to an online consultation (very easy to fill in)

object.org.uk/home/3-news/140-tower-hamlets-11-strip-clubs

ArtVandelay Tue 11-Oct-11 12:29:19

It took 5 minutes or less smile

Flibble80 Tue 17-Jan-12 00:28:17

What a load of bollocks. Woman are free to work where they please and men are free to spend their money where they please.

KristineRackabusi Tue 24-Jan-12 21:25:14

Flibble80, you obviously have no idea of the amount of violence and abuse that occurs behind the scenes in the sex industry, of which strip clubs are no doubt a part of.

Many women feel that strippers offer an unrealistic standard they are expected to live up to, leaving them in spirals of depression. I have no sympathy for the 'women' who will lose their jobs. They are gender-traitors of the highest degree, second only to prostitutes

betternextlife Sat 11-Feb-12 22:53:39

Kristine I agree with them closing clubs.

But women who work in them are not 'traitors'. They are there for a variety of reasons such as being poor, desperate, believing the cultural myths that erotic dance is empowering, or having a history of abuse. What ever reason they accepted the role, the impact of the work including the stigma makes it difficult to get out of.

Dismissing them as worthless objects is what the punters do, I would hope that feminists would see them as people

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 10:54:08

Personally I am for striptease, the women who work in it on average are intelligent and using it either for short term or long term plans. The Leeds research showed that 87% of dancers interviewed have higher education and over a third are funding their way through University. Kristine you have no sympathy for these women but yet you claim to be protecting them, that really doesn't ring true. I would suggest you listen to http://moronwatch.net/2012/01/strippers-are-people-too.html to hear what two dancers think on the matter.

Kristine as to the unrealistic standards that applies to so many things that targetting one small group of people is the act of a hate campaign. Try reading most of the young womens magazines, women objectify women more than any man ever could.

MisterDarcy wanted people to vote in a consultation which is now closed. BUT its results have not been published. This begs the question why!

JuliaScurr Mon 13-Feb-12 11:05:24

Aah, another old favourite - working their way through university <Gets bingo cards out>
Not that concerned about some women who 'choose' to do it; more interested in the over-inflation of male ego.
Which can also be expressed by crashing a feminist activism thread
Are you white? Try telling an anti-racist group they've imagined it all

SardineQueen Mon 13-Feb-12 11:10:59

why has this old thread been bumped?

SardineQueen Mon 13-Feb-12 11:12:26

the good news is that hackney approved the nil quota here

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 12:04:49

LMAO Sardine the really good news is Hackney backed off and left the existing ones and the Nil policy lsot the vote.

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 12:09:22

Sorry lets put this down correctly trying to rush typing is a poor excuse.

Hackney had a consultation and 67% of people were against the nil policy. The council tried to push it through anyway but found they were going to go to court about it so rapidly backed off and let the existing venues carry on. Thats what I call good news

SardineQueen Mon 13-Feb-12 12:23:31

Is teh article I linked out of date?

Can you link something showing the current situation please?

SardineQueen Mon 13-Feb-12 12:23:52

How come you have these figures at your fingertips anyway?

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 12:39:02

Because I was involved in the campaign to save the venues in Hackney. The basics ae covered in hackneycitizen.co.uk/2011/01/10/sex-establishments-consultation-majority-say-no-to-hackney-councils-nil-policy/

Of course the issue is what will happen in Tower Hamlets given that Cllr Rania Khan who is one of the leading figures in the council is a member of Object (can you say prejudice anyone) and that the consultation closed in October and yet no result have been published (can you say fit up anyone). A councillor who is prejudiced is not suppose to vote on things like this but Rania Khan has previously and I expect she won't stop now.

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 13:51:26

Julia as your not concerned I assume you wouldn't protest about them them. And yeah that Uni thing, horrible thing isn't it that some women choose to be educated. Even Object's pet lap dancer funded her way through uni before co-authoring a book with a member of Object (not hard to guess who the target audience would be). As for me crashing, that is mainly because I want an open debate with Object but on the news papers and other sites they tend to decide against debating so hoping for more action here. If the mountain won't come to mohammed so to speak.

JuliaScurr Mon 13-Feb-12 14:12:43

Read it again, Tony. I'm concerned about the social effects of pandering to sexism in the guise of entertainment. HTH smile

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 14:27:18

And what social effect do you believe there are? Be interested in what facts and figures you have to back these arguments up grin

JuliaScurr Mon 13-Feb-12 15:43:50

Take a wild guess, Tony What do you think it might be?

SardineQueen Mon 13-Feb-12 16:17:18

Um tony the article I linked is from the same newspaper, after your article, with a headline

"Hackney Council approves ‘nil’ policy and bans strip clubs and sex shops"
"Cleanup campaign succeeds as councillors vote to outlaw sex entertainment venues – except in Haggerston"

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 16:20:06

Well lets see, normally the first one is claiming a relationship between striptease and rape, heres a question for you.. in the course of a year how many rapes occured in and in the vicinity of the 11 venues in tower hamlets? If there is a relationship between the two it would be driven by the freshness of the event of watching striptease/

Then there is the issue of lack of respect, now I respect women, I have had female bosses and worked closely with women who have run their own businesses and have no issues with females in business or any other aspect of life. I don't respect liars or cheats of either sex and of women the only one I can truly say I have no respect for is my ex wife and striptease had nothing to do with the break up as I wasn't going then.

My male ego is well taken care of as a bi lateral amputee I hav had to deal with self worth issues and the positive behaviour from dancers has helped me become a much more balanced individual.

Ok was it any of those?

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 16:21:41

Sardine the only venues exist in Haggerston so all they are doing is saying we are letting the status quo continue. And choosing a nil policy against the will of the public?

SardineQueen Mon 13-Feb-12 16:23:58

Tony that doesn't explain why you told me my link was out of date and wrong, when it was in fact more recent and relevant than the information that you posted from the same publication.

TonyN Mon 13-Feb-12 18:07:06

The link I had was bookmarked. So I just grabbed it. Bottom line is for all the so called nil policy it is a polictal smokescreen. I didn't read the date your article was published because you said there was a nil quota which is a political statement and not strictly true. My apologies for not reading it fully. It really dosn't matter what they say, a nil policy would mean no venues and that didn't happen.

JuliaScurr Tue 14-Feb-12 13:02:40

Tony please don't pull the 'disabled men need hookers' thing. I'm a wheelchair user and quite able to maintain an egalitarian sexual relationship

JuliaScurr Tue 14-Feb-12 13:06:45

And no, I don't think there's a causal link between striptease and rape. There is a proven link between opening ldc and street sexual harrassment. More importantly, there's a link between sexism, the sex industry and sexual violence of which it is a part

TonyN Tue 14-Feb-12 13:52:41

Julia, nope dont need hookers and I am in a comfortable relationship. However when adjusting to the loss of both legs I actually found I was most comfortable and treated best in strip bars. It was much more an emotional thing.

Street sexual harrassment well I can only speak from experience of the London strip bars but in the last 10 years I can only remember 2 incidents that would even come close to SSH. I have seen far more, far more regularly outside ordinary pubs. Linking a generic issue and targetting a specific group I would question from personal experience.

As to Sexual violence and the sex industry I have not read anything with proves it. However if you can provide reference material or point me in the right direction I would happily read it and then comment.

JuliaScurr Tue 14-Feb-12 17:50:42

I can't link this for some reason (get 'page unavailable') but you need Camden council's crime figures and Metropolitan police stats, esp Sapphire unit (sexual violence)
You will see how Tottenham Court Rd became a no-go area for young women, unfortunate given the number of students round there
Their rights important?

TonyN Wed 15-Feb-12 08:47:41

Julia, Camdens figures were the ones used in the Lilith report which was inaccurate and they were shown that sex crimes actually went down over the time period that lap dancing was introduced especially in comparison to sex crimes of other boroughs without lap dancing the review of the analysis is

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47185652/Green-Paper-Camden-Lilith-rape-stats

JuliaScurr Thu 16-Feb-12 10:29:00

Is that the one based on Brooke Magnanti's (hand maiden in chief, daughter of serial prostitute user who sought her approval of his behaviour) research? Not biased then.

TonyN Thu 16-Feb-12 11:29:12

Julia the maths don't lie. The Camden research was flawed and more than one source has proved that. However I have my blinkers and you have yours, still doesn't get away from a flawed methodology by the Lilith report. The most experienced anti LDC campaigners are now shying away from Lilith as it is so flawed. But believe that a PhD lies in a green paper if it makes your little world better.

TonyN Thu 16-Feb-12 13:06:07

I am sorry Julia I was a little harsh in my last statement. Just that people think because of her background she can't do this sort of analysis without being bais. However let me just say one thing her work has been out over 2 years which would be plenty of time for someone to disprove her statements. The fact that no one has produced work doing so is a statement in itself.

JuliaScurr Thu 16-Feb-12 15:13:38

Tony As I have said, I'm sure there are some people in the sex industry who are content in their role. However, that minority are very vocal in their support of the industry at the expense of other voices. I don't think we'll be seeing Billy Piper in a series about a 14 yr old (Average age of entering prostitution - average means lot are younger) drug using kid out of the care system after a life of emotional neglect and abuse. I take great exception to the sanitisation of something which cannot be sanitised. In Australia, the state gives out anaesthetic in brothels to inject into the vulva with the warning it can mask more serious injuries. In what way do you find this acceptable? All the time this trade exists, gender inequality is reinforced. We hold these truths to be self evident.

chrissie9 Thu 16-Feb-12 15:32:22

Firstly I object to the term "sex crimes"-there is nothing sexual as far as women are concerned about the types of assaults being discussed.
Secondly, women in strip/lap dancing clubs etc are vulnerable beyond any man's imagination, whether they are able to study to degree level or not.
I wonder, when men are participating in these clubs,[let's not pretend they are merely innocent onlookers] whether they ever take time out to consider what circumstances/experiences these women have left behind, before embarking on this "chosen" path....something that I know many women are aware of and sympathise with, rather than simply assuming they ever had a real choice. Julia I agree with your comments; I am leaving this thread now, purely as I think , looking at the contributions of one other person, as if there could be an ulterior unpleasant motive for his actions....mmmmm!

JuliaScurr Thu 16-Feb-12 15:40:25

chrissie thumbs up emoticon (smile seems inappropriate given the topic)

TonyN Thu 16-Feb-12 17:50:52

Julia, you wanted to prove a point and used Camden as your example the fact you failed to show any validity between LDCs and violence from this. I have a friend who spent 8 years on Sapphire and I have heard some horror stories (in generic terms never names). Yet even a detective in Sapphire saw no association between striptease and violence against women.

Claiming self evident would be like me saying it is self evident that LDCs reduce violence. Obviously nothing I could ever prove (although the comparison between Camden and Wandsworth is interesting) but I could claim self evident and no one would believe me. So rather than prolong the self evident discussions I will check back to see if you can provide evidence that firmly proves your point other than you saying it is right because you believe it to be right.

JuliaScurr Thu 16-Feb-12 20:08:10

In a very real sense, ICBA, but I have attempted to link to the refs above, sadly, without success. Not all of it relates to Camden.

TonyN Thu 16-Feb-12 20:45:50

Well I have seen the information on Bristol and I am now investigating. However it is difficult as 3 of the 4 clubs are closely located with night clubs and bars so going to ask if the police has a breakdown on where offenders drank etc. The one not located near the other bars has an incredibly lower trend in comparison. I am not closed minded on the subject and more than willing to research. The base line figures make it difficult to exstrapolate as the figures include all violent occurences. I may have to apply under the freedom of information act to get a full disclosure (if there is any data sets that can be used).

I would point out that the figures gathered by tower hamlets from 2007 to 2008 http://www.cfps.org.uk/domains/cfps.org.uk/local/media/library/22601.pdf so the crime rate over the course of a year (page 12) and in considering it involves in and around 11 venues not really as damning as you would expect.

Sorry blush

I thought your OP said "London strip clubs face the arse"

And I thought "no shit sherlock"

TBE Thu 16-Feb-12 20:52:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yellowraincoat Thu 16-Feb-12 20:56:46

Gender traitors? Feminism just took about 20 steps back right there.

TBE Thu 16-Feb-12 20:58:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yellowraincoat Thu 16-Feb-12 20:59:17

I don't understand your question.

TinyPants Thu 16-Feb-12 21:09:32

The strippers don't really like you.

Sorry to break this shocking news. grin

TonyN Thu 16-Feb-12 21:39:36

I know Tiny shock horror although last time I was invited out on the Dancers' Xmas party they made a fair impression of it including going dutch. However yes they don't have to be my friend. Men know this, very few of us are that stupid to believe they all like us. Still in contact with a few even though I haven't been to a venue in over 6 months.

TonyN Fri 17-Feb-12 07:48:16

I did a comparative analysis of Bristol, which has been quoted elsewhere as having high sex crimes near the LDCs and Leicester which is a city of similar size and has a LDC but it is located a few hundred yards away from the nightclubs in the area. Bristol has the LDCs in the heart of the nightclub district and I wanted to see if when separated it made any difference to the crime figures. Interestingly Leicester showed over 90% of violent crime is based around the nightclubs and only 4% was anywhere near the LDC. Whilst it does not prove the LDCs in Bristol do not have problems it does suggest a much deeper analysis is needed because of the area of location. Having the Bristol Hippodrome opposite 1 club really does make distinguishing figures difficult. I would suggest to anyone quoting Bristol you will need several disclaimers if you are going to directly allocate blame to the LDCs.

Now as Tiny pointed out that dancers are not friends of the customers and generally I hold this to be a truth. My position is slightly different but I will let you judge if I am likely to know anything about the real dancers.

Know several by their real names
Have been introduced to boyfriends and husbands
Been to dancers homes (and no not as a customer)
Helped with a dancer's cv (she was retiring)
Helped with College projects
Been invited to weddings
Acted as an emergency child minder when a dancer's child minder became ill.

I could go on but you get the picture. What I will say is the dancers I have met outside of the strip bar environment enjoyed their work in the main. Like any job they had bad days and good.

TBE Fri 17-Feb-12 12:20:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TonyN Fri 17-Feb-12 13:08:38

TBE I am looking at local police stats, reports from Police.uk and reports on crime figures from relevant local papers. The fact that a lot of the time the reports don't match exactly doesn't help. But as people are using the figures from Bristol I have tried to keep it matched to what the report claims. Your right about the figures as police.uk does not separate out rape and assualt from other violent crimes it includes it. Therefore the difficulty of maintaining relevancy is a nightmare but I have tried my best. Perhaps you would like to do an analysis that can separate out events from nightclubs so it doesn't cloud the issue in Bristol.

Different people react differently when in the industry and they leave it. I would say the ones I know who have left and still have a positive experience of it then to be the ones that used it best to fit in with the development of the rest of their lives. Most of the ones I know tend to work the London strip pub circuit which is different to the pressures of working in the LDC chains. However that said this is going to be a harsh statement but those who went in most damaged before starting seem to have had the worst experiences.

We could probably fill the board with different examples. And like any form of work some people start it that TBH never should have. The question I always ask is why if it affecting you you negatively do you stay?

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