Mumsnet Talk

Hello

Following on from the thread about changing the law on rape to grant anonimity to the accused, a few people have started to think about what we can do to get involved, to actually try and change stuff.

So I guess this thread is for suggestions, ideas, and for people to link up to actually try to change things.

So far we have someone possibly standing for pariament!

So come on everyone.

What's the plan....

Hi ISNT! Areas we could look at:

- rape law
- women standing for parliament (even if not me )
- anti-porn/lapdancing (controversial)

Hiya

I'm a bit of a lurker as feel like I never have time to type once I've got through reading all the dicussions...

But WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT is my main response to many of these interesting/enlightening threads throughout the feminism bit. On both the personal and political/societal front.

There are various campaign organisations out there (Fawcett soc etc) - some recommendations on effectiveness & focus of the existing stuff would be a helpful starting point for me?

Is anyone a member of the fawcett society? Or work for them? Would it be worth donating/joining?

Other thoughts:

Getting involved in politics - yes! But it's quite a big deal Are any of us seriously thinking about getting involved? At national or local level?

Marches? We can meet up and march for reclaim the night and stuff like that? I know there is a feminist conference in london here and some people are meeting up for that, details to be arranged nearer the time, I think Lenin is on the case.

Writing firm letters to people

We could create our own pressure group!!!

Are there any organisations specifically working to get the rape conviction rates improved, who have the ears of the right people? Anyone know who they are?

Could you please make it clear with whatever you do that you are campaigning on behalf of women with the same mindset as you? I'm not being at all funny or intentionally rude, but I wouldn't want to think that you are campaigning for 'women' when some of those 'women' agree with the policy change....

I am thinking of what I can do for my own beliefs lou.

Have you contacted MNHQ and asked them to put a disclaimer at the top of their "let girls be girls" campaign saying "please be aware that many people disagree with this campaign, we are only speaking for ourselves and the people who have registered their approvel".

I think it is self-evident that when people campaign or get involved they are not speaking for everyone in the whole world who shares characteristics with them.

So when I write to my MP about this, and say I disagree strongly, you want me to put at the end PS a lot of women think this is a great idea though.

Not being funny, but, come on.

I think MN has made me a bit confrontational and I wanted this to be a nice friendly thread.

Sorry lou, have registered your objections.

I'm not just campaigning on behalf of women with the same mindset as me, anyway. I'm campaigning on behalf of people with the same mindset.

ISNT, I probably haven't been very clear.

Of course you can take action to make your feelings on the matter clear. And you can set up groups, petitions, campaigns, lobby to your hearts' content.

I suppose what I was trying to say is, would it be possible to bear in mind that not all women have the same view when it comes to the changes (if any) to be made.

The rape defendant anonymity clause is a case in point.

You see I don't see that

If that were the case nothing would ever get done

There are always people who want to maintain the status quo. I'm sure there were women who didn't want the vote, I am sure there were women who thought that no crime of rape within marriage was fair enough. I know there are women who think that FGM is a good thing. There are women who believe that a womans place is in the home, or that pimping little chidren is a good job.

If people all had the same views there would be no need for pressure groups. If everyone considered all the opposing views and gave them weight with their view, they would never be able to act. If you see something that you believe is wrong, you need to be able to stand up and say "this is wrong".

There are other websites with threads saying that women who make false rape claims should eb executed. Are they giving fair and balanced consideration to the opposing views? or can I just stand up and say "this is bollocks" without having to give them repectful consideration.

"If people all had the same views there would be no need for pressure groups." Well, quite.

Don't worry Lou, you have many powerful people on your side. In fact, I would say you have most of the world's goverments on your side. So don't mind little old us standing up and fighting in any small way we can, when we can, to protect ourselves and our daughters (real or so-far imaginary) from the worst excesses of misogyny.

Actually, I am not campaigning on behalf of women with the same mindset as me, or even people with the same mindset as me. I am campaigning for people, full-stop. If I or any group in which I participate succeeds, it will make things better for women or humans in general, whether they agree with me or not. I am not going to make sure a new law or right says "except for Lou, who disagreed". The benefits that feminism has achieved so far have probably benefitted you, Lou, if you enjoy the entitlement to equal pay, paid maternity leave, protection from sexual harrassment etc. That's the nice thing about feminism see, it works on behalf of everyone, whatever their own personal views.

Is there anything you would like to see campaigns for lou? Feministy things obviously, not robots to do the housework and stuff. Although that probably would be a feministy thing to campaign for actually.

Anyway.

You don't have to join in but all ideas are welcome

I'm very interested in the ideas here. They go round in my head then I get caught up in the domestic hamster wheel and don't do anything with them, shame on me. The thing that appalls me is how fixated on their physical appearance young girls still are - to a really pernicious degree. It must sap such a lot of their energy. I feel murderous rage when I see adverts selling women in phone boxes. I tear them up when I don't have the kids with me, but would like to see an end to women being marketed as meat for men to consume.

Feel better for writing that. Am with you in spirit as I unload the dishes.

Oh yes, I'm definitely interested in this. I've been thinking about what I could feasibly do ever since I heard about the change. <Watching this space>

ISNT, you may not believe me...

...I actually would like to see campaigns for better dealings with women who claim to have been raped. Truly. I have never said that I don't. I just very strongly believe that equality is something that should be afforded to all of society.

I would like campaigns for real steps forward for part-time working and flexi working (for women and men alike).

Why wouldn't I believe you? There are some things that I'm sure I would disagree with others on!

Yes to we need to do something about the treatment of women who have been raped, was to find out how the flagship "sapphire" unit have been cocking it up and not believing women etc.

I think we need to try and find out who the pressure groups are for this sort of tihng - are there any single issue pressure groups, do they have any influence?

Yes to the flexi working thing. This "right to request" stuff is nonsense. I requested it, and was told to get stuff. DHs work don't do part time at all either. I would be very interested in freeing everyone up from the usual constraints which seem to end up forcing a lot of people into traditional gender roles. i like the idea of "sharing" maternity leave as well. There is stuff about all this in the lib/con document and the it was in the queen's speech as well. So that's positive I think. Don't know what their precise plans are I must admit.

I think keeping on challenging the myths around rape is really important. Lots of people will be reading what's said even if they aren't participating in the discussion.

Hmm, MN is funny like that isn't it Lenin. It's like blindfolding yourself and walking into a room and just talking, with no idea whether you are alone or whether thousands of people are listening.

I found these earlier:

Truth About Rape

to End Rape

Rape Crisis

Can't actually find a campaigning element that invites the public to join in on any of them though.

That new UK Feminista site looks good though, did a search for "rape" and came up with some interesting results

sorry Campaign to End Rape computer loves to bugger about with the cursor.

It drives me mad how, when you say you are a feminist, people you previously thought were sensible start muttering about dungarees and man hating and so on. The amount of times I have heard "It's not like I am some kind of feminist but..." and they will go on to say something very feminist.

We need to get the word out there that feminism is about equality for all, not running off and living in a hairy lesbian commune, boobs akimbo, bras aflame.

"not running off and living in a hairy lesbian commune, boobs akimbo, bras aflame."

Bugger, isn't it?

only if you want it to be Lenin

It just amazes me that people are prepared to disregard independently-gathered statistics and overwhelming evidence from others, often including authorities such as the police themselves, because they just don't seem to like what's being said or have anything done about it. I don't understand it. It's not logical or rational.

Dittany and I are advocating the wearing of catsuits, at the moment.

Now there's a line yuo thought you'd never see

Actually I'd love to live on a commune. But a really posh one with en suite bathrooms

And my bra is really uncomfortable

<fetches firelighters>

<pauses to expain to a baffled DH WTF is going on>

I honestly can't see WHAT can be done from a campaigning point of view. Don't the statistics say that most rapes are by partners or men already known to the victim?

Presumably the low conviction rates are down to the erronous beliefs that THESE are not rape, in the way that being attacked in the street is, or the difficulty of ascertaining what actually happened?

Education would seem to be key. But education of whom?

It's like people are worried they'll spontaneously combust if they ever had to admit to what the stats and the experience of others are saying.

Imagine a massive 'I believe you' campaign.

Just pictures of ordinary women, no backstory, just that: I believe you.

Could be about anything.

oh god I was speaking to a friend today about this issue and she immediately launched into the "but the problem is that so many women lie about it that they've spoilt it for everyone else".

She is an otherwise eminently sensible, educated, intelligent woman. But the rape myths are so strong and I think we need a massive re-education campaign, starting in the courtroom and prioritising schools so that the next generation are at least in possession of some basic facts.

I think there are probably massive problems with the way police deal with victims, and gather (or don't gather) evidence. These only come to light with something like John Worboys or Ian Huntley, that people have been disbelieved, forensics not gathered, statements not taken for ages etc. Just imagine how often it must happen though. Maybe the police need a target <tired sigh>.

Look at this shocking example. "Rape Champions" is about right. FGS.

Education is actually quite an interesting one. Because there's an opportunity to get the 'it's men that do the raping - men, please stop raping' angle out there.

Education of men, from early on then. How?

LOVE IT Lenin.

Let's do it.

Subtitle: either debunking rape myths e.g. "At least 98% of rape allegations are found to be genuine"

or just:

2000 women are raped every week in the UK.

How is a very interesting question. I would normally say that "proper" sex education with all the moral stuff included should come from parents. School should cover the biology aspect in more detail. But there are so many parents that don't give a stuff.

I have a daughter, not a son. If I had one, I would want to include the messages about the proper way to behave from early on. With my dd, what do I do? Educate her about what is normal/not normal? Tell her not to put herself in certain situations?

this is the petition page for number 10. Could we start a petition(s) here?

And what about writing proper letters (not emails) to our MPs. With lots of new MPs it should be a good opportunity to get their attention while they are still 'fresh'.

A good way to affect change is to set a good example to others around us by not exploiting/deriding other women (eg not using words like 'slut', 'slag', 'whore', boycotting companies which have sexist policies)and standing up to men who try to belittle us (whether at home or work or elsewhere).

Some of the relationship and employment threads on here show that we still have a long long way to go to get equality, never mind liberation.

stirlingstar - it should be included in PHSE, SEAL stuff etc. - at secondary level.

A massive percentage of young men think that most rape allegations are false. They're getting that idea from the media and their families and the state is the only organisation that can counter-balance those messages.

It would be amazing. Right, we need to:

- write to MNHQ? not that this is a MN campaign, or is it? How does this work?

- post message looking for support on the main site, also contact SGB possibly?

- contact the organisations I've listed above asking for help and advice as to how to carry it out. Possibly also women's aid?

-erm, what else?

I'm too tired to think right now and am off to bed soon but count me in. I haven't been involved in any proper feminist campaigning since I was a student about 20 years ago but I feel really strongly about this and need to start engaging my brain in something I actually care about

Prolesworth, from what I remember the atheist bus campaign had the support of Richard Dawkins, probably he helped fund it and had a lot of influence?

So do you think that if there was a campaign we could contact eminent UK feminists to see if they would get involved? I think that for any campaign to succeed, having "high profile" names attached, whether they are a "known" feminist (published etc) or just a famous person who supports the campaign, is something that would be a huge boost.

ahaha now this is exciting! am bored to tears doing this job application tonight so can't really get stuck in, but tomorrow - yes, tomorrow it'll all be kicking off!

Has anyone started a thread outside of the feminist ghetto yet, or shall I? Thinking for wording? Campaign for justice for rape victims? Something snappier? ;)

I was thinking about that [[ http://theshapeofamother.com/ website]] which has photos of women's bodies after they've had children to celebrate how we change after pregnancy. What about having something similar for this? Where women could share what happened to them and why they did/didn't press charges. I think that the sheer weight of all those stories would make the statistics real.

Or even this website

Righty ho Prolesworth, should i direct people over here? and where best to post?

I think we also need a petition to persuade the govt to drop this proposal.

Ah, this is a much better thread to be on.

"I believe you" is a brilliant idea for a campaign.

Could we be Feminists Against Rape, if that hasn't been taken by another group.

I thought that might be the case!

Let's have a look around.

This one is very UK-based and looks professional enough:

www.gopetition.co.uk/

That looks like the only decent one, let me just see where the Tesco lads' mags one was.

Yep, GoPetition: www.gopetition.com/online/34857.html

What about just Stop Rape? those websites are free too.

So it could be

BIGPIC
"I believe you"
Subtitle:
"On average 1 in 3 women and girls will be raped in her lifetime. www.stoprape.co.uk"

Maybe not .org as may get mixed up with this: www.stoprapenow.org/ although that does look like a good site. Only focussing on ending rape in warzones though.

It's scarily simple, this idea. People might mock at trying to "stop rape" - but it's what everyone (except rapists) should be aiming for, right? Plus no-one thinks that "Stop child abuse" campaigns are silly.

I like Stop Rape, has all kinds of emphasis and trigger words, very good.

Can't say 'on average' with 1 in 3 though, doesn't register right, it should just say 1 in 3. Where is that figure from? I've seen 1 in 4.

Stop Rape is good. It's what we want to do after all.

A website would be good with rape myths dispelled. I'd pay towards the hosting fees.

Wow, looks great, well done!

sorry Lenin was just quick example of potential stat(did i mention am trying not to get this mixed up with job I am applying for? ), easy enough to get hold of exact figures though.

www.stoprape.co.uk

This is sounding good.

Anyone know anything about getting hold of domain name?

So ideas for content.

- link to petition on the anonymity issue
- rape myths debunked - they have some on other websites but we could do a thread to generate out own
- links to helpful websites, possibly via an emergency button on homepage e.g. rape crisis, women's aid.
- need a mission statement
- collection of photos for the "I Believe You" campaign. Ideally featuring people of all ages/sexes/races. How should we collect these?

What else?

Not trying to take over btw, just brainstorming really.

That's great Lenin - do you know how much hosting usually costs?

I am happy to do a lot of the copywriting/drafting for website as I'm used to that, if people want me to. Would post here for comments/amends.

You might want to start a thread in chat with just the petition title.

we could have one of those automatic linky things through from ibelieveyou.co.uk? how do they happen? (displays gaping maw of ignorance) Think "I Believe You" is great too Proles, but think it's more of a slogan than a group name, IYSWIM? Like, if someone interviewed you and said "Proles from I Believe You said ___", slightly odd. I just thought "Proles from Stop Rape" sounded better. It could work though?

I just did a FB link from that petition too.

Thanks Proles! Love the petition!

Wordpress eh? <strokes beard> I have no idea how or what that means for website building. Ah wait - they do templates don't they?

Do you want me to post a thread linking to petition or have you?

Also from the second rape anonymity thread if you haven't already.

And perhaps new thread in feminism section too?

Sorry brain is overboiling, should be writing about my ability to work as part of a team or something. (If only they knew...)

Great night all, catch up tomorrow.

Marking place. Would love to help.

I miss all the best threads. I Believe You is fucking brilliant.

I've started a thread in chat. Have tweeted Feminists in London, Fawcett Society and Rights of Women, but others should too if you want to, more noise the better. A good load of sign ups already.

Gosh this is alll very exciting!

I believe you is fab. (Nice one len!)

Website great idea - has anyone bought teh domain name? I don't mind doing it.

Does anyone know how to build websites? I did my first one recently and used a joomla template but it is very basic.

What is this petition? is there a link? I'm not on twitter or facebook and feel like i'm missing something!

Also re getting high profile feminists to support - what i think is - if we really want people to engage with it, incuding teens and men, we need standard slebs rather than just feminist ones - actresses and pop stars and that sort of thing. And what would be really good - footballers. Now that would be quite something. We need to get the message out past the people who already get it.

The bus idea is a really good one, one of us needs to call up TFL (I guess it would be london?) and find out how much it costs. i don't mind doing that too if people want me to They might have a list of costs for all of their space - on the tube and everything.

Now. Anyone know any slebs or journalists? Anyone got connections to publicise this?

www.gopetition.com/online/36579/signatures.html

"I believe you" is fantastic. Could technically be called Stop Rape, but with "I believe you" as a domain name/FB page name/twitter tag/badge slogan etc.

Like Stop the War and the Not In My Name slogan, but with the slogan even more prominent.

UK Feminista have picked it up and tweeted it: www.ukfeminista.org.uk/about-weekly-actions/369-stopanonymity.html

And Feminists in London have picked up the hashtag

@FiL Please sign and RT petition - no anonymity for rape defendants http://bit.ly/dkMvzZ #stoprape

Sorry no, that's one of ours - good job!

This is an excellent thread and I would love to help if I can. I don't have twitter (it baffles me tbh ) but I have posted the link to my Facebook page in the hope that some of my FB friends will sign and repost.

Don't think so Proles. It's what it's for an all that. Wonder if Caitlin Moran would RT it?

Is Helena Kennedy on Twitter?

Shall I tweet her? She is a friend of a friend so worth a shot

Have signed the petition.

I thought that for it to be valid they had to collect addresses of the signatories?

What about under the general name Stop Rape (or whatever) having a few different slogans focusing on different rape myths? So, different slogans on different buses (eg).

So #1 is “I believe you” – followed by statistic about rape rates or conviction rates. How about these others:

#2: “It’s still rape” – regarding rape by a (ex or current) partner, which as we all know is the commonest form, or rape of someone who was drunk/asleep;

#3: e.g. “We don’t lie” – something about false claims being much less common than is widely thought;

#4: something about how rape is NEVER the victim’s fault – perhaps link to that awful campaign about licensed minicabs. Oh and the skinny jeans!!!

#5: "No means no" - women don't ask for rape, or fantasize about it.

#6: something about how consent must be verbally expressed and not presumed through clothing, silence or behaviour.

Clearly I need some help coming up with snappy slogans for 3, 4 and 6!

Oh and nothing wrong with Stop Rape, but maybe it should focus on dispelling rape myths first, because surely that’s the whole key to this. Like “Rape Facts”, “Rape Truths” or “The Truth about Rape”…? There is already a general public awareness that rape is wrong and should be stopped, iyswim, but rape myths break it down into a few smaller issues, making it easier to think about. Because of this I don’t think Stop Rape would incur as much interest as something which looked at it from a “new” (to many people) angle. They won’t take rape in itself more seriously until they understand the truth behind the myths, because at the moment these myths obscure the reality and actual seriousness of rape…

I think TFL is a great place to start, as are Twitter, Facebook and petitions. We do need high profile people attached as that's who the public will respond to best. Sadly i don't know any celebs. I also think we should write to all major broadsheets once it's up and running to draw attention to it, perhaps in the context of a news story. Once a presence for the campaign is created in London through the transport network, it will spread to the rest of the country through the newspapers which are published there.
And I hate to say it but the Sun is pretty influential. If they were seen to mention the campaign it would probably be a big step.

That would be great.

TBH ISNT, strength of feeling and numbers will do I think, I doubt there is any petition law you can call on to actually block anything. It's a statement is all I think.

How about "It's not (or it wasn't) your fault" (similar to I believe you, although could be misinterpreted I suppse?) for #4 and "yes means yes" for #6?

I sent a tweet to Mark Thomas.

Love the slogan "I believe you", so poignant.

Also, as Richard Dawkins pledged to give up to 5K to the Athiest campaign, perhaps we could find a similar sponsor. The Athiest campaign didn't need his donation though as they made so much out of public donation.

If a site could be set up, linked to by all the other feminist websites as there are alot of them, and then a justgiving page to donate to I really think we could launch a campaign ourselves. I'd love to be involved if you want.

Kat Banyard's signed!

Yes means yes is good.

I think what we need to do is think about

1. Who we are aiming this at. Victims of rape? Women? Teens? Everyone?

2. What it is for. To dispel rape myths? As a rescource for people who have been raped? Somewhere that people can talk about rape? Are we lobbying? All of the above?

Basically we need a very clear remit, and be focussed, so that we all know what we're doing and what goes up on the site. We can always start small, with one clear aim, and see where we go from there.

Also "I believe you" - yes it's a great slogan. But who is "I"? Is it us? the website? The slebs that we are going to find? What about teh police? I mean they're the ones that matter.

We need to get all this nailed

I think it should be aimed at enlightening the public generally, exposing rape myths ad bringing the reality of rape to the forefront.

The good thing about "I believe you" is that it could be anyone and everyone. Giving the illusion that everyone is behind this is the best lobbying tactic to change public opinion.

I would say to dispel rape myths and to support rape victims.

"I believe you" is both addressed to rape victims and is a way of saying to society "I don't believe rape myths."

I agree mrsrisotto. There is that knife campaign where people took pictures of their backs, turning their back on knife crime. Perhaps the "I believe you" part could aim to include celebrities and police officers holding the sign, as well as members of the public?

Ooh good one Allidon, like the 'turn your back on page 3' campaign has pics of people with the slogan written on their backs!

Bus campaign is a really good idea and pretty achievable i reckon, just need someone who knows how to design a website, i'd give it a go esp as the domain names are that cheap and it's easy enough but i don't have a clue tbh.

Totally agree it should be about enlightening the public generally. I think we need to absolutely ensure that our messages are accesible to boys and men as well. I think that is vital - not least because rape is a problem for the whole of society, not just a "womens" problem. And of course men are the ones doing it. We need to catch em young if we can.

So we have pics of slebs saying "I believe you". POlice people saying it. I mean some people from teh bloody sapphire unit ought to be persuadable.

Getting the people to do it will be hard. And we need to do it in a way that's not too similar to the "this is what a feminist looks like" campaign.

And we have "exploding rape myths" stuff as well.

Getting a bit ambitious here but if this happens and grows, I think we should think about getting into schools.

CBS handles outdoor advertising for TFL arriva etc

it costs a bomb

How about a domain name something like "Stop Rape Myths"?

This is the debate of the day on Grazia apparently (yes I'm a follower ) so I've tweeted them too

Ads on the tube are more affordable

here

Tube Car Panels

£20.00 per site, 2 weeks

The Athiest bus campaing managed to get £150k by asking people to donate a fiver and getting the odd sponsor...maybe we could set up a justgiving page, when we have our shit together website wise, and see what we get?

It does and we can design them ourselves - I can dust off my photoshop skills. There are free photo libraries which is probably the best place to get images of all sorts of women

I hope I haven't read that wrong, but £20 for 2 weeks seems like good value. I always read tha ads on teh tube too.

For domain name, I really like stoprape (.co.uk or .com?)

it is easier for people to remember (and spell!) than stoprapemyths, shorter, punchier. Also if we decide to do other things we wont be limited by the domain name IYSWIM

just remembered that I know a company who will host small websites for free, their costs for larger ones a competitive

i use them for the one i made recently

they don't sell domain names though so we'd need to buy the domain and then we could host it for free to start with

I think it would be wise to get both as otherwise someone could buy whichever one we don't get and use it to undermine the campaign.

fab thread btw.

I reckon .org but don't really know why.....it sounds like what an organisation should have!

Woohoo! Well done Prolesworth! We're on our way!

OK right

5quidhost

have a free hosting service which I used for teh website I made. It is a webiste with a lot of pictures but I managed 5 pages full of large picture files before I had to move onto a paid service. which is £2 a month

proles have a looka and see what you think? I don't really understand all the web hosting jargon, but I have found them v good. have responed to queries v quickly and not treated me like a thicky, and I was able to get a pretty good site up using a joomla template v quickly

proles i have a £10 john lewis voucher you can have if you like, for that payment?

You are doing a great job!

UK Feminista have put us on the front page!

I would happily bung a bit of money into the campaigning pot when someone sets up a way to do it <passively letting everyone else do all the work emoticon>

love the petition - have facebooked it (now we'll see how feminist my friends really are....) Did you notice Jess McCabe from The F Word has signed?

This site seems good for those of us not in the know about how to go about setting up a website.

5quidhost looks good but I can't tell if they impose a maximum size on each of the files you upload, also the bandwidth is quite small according to the guide I posted we want 1-3GB.

There is a max size on uploading files but I have uploaded large jpegs no prob.

hold on will have a look.

I think that using a free hosting service to get it up and running would be good - we can always upgrade to a paid service with more capacity either there or elsewhere if we need the space.

the site I did was 5 or 6 pages, with menus and everything, and about 4 large pictures on each page (scrolling down way past the bottom of the screen IYSWIM) + text

max file upload = 10M

Oooh wow this is fab. I'll help however you like! I LOVE "I believe you" - I was raped and so many people didn't believe, but when just one person said that to me, it helped so much. It's an amazing idea for a campaign. I want to see it on a bus!

My DP is a policeman for the Met so I'll speak to him tonight and see if he can do anything re busses? He might know somebody, or be able to get some contacts in the police to get them onside? Just a thought.

There's a support site called Pandora's Aquarium for rape survivors, they'd probably all be really interested in signing the petition etc. You have to join but I'm a member so I can pass the link on later tonight if you want?

I'll blog about the petition, too, and when the site is up and running I'll link to it as long as nobody would mind - it's a, um, "adult blog" with somewhat blatantly kinky overtones subject matter.

Thank you, thank you. It will be great if a long-running campaign comes out of this. So many myths needs debunking and this is such a simple and right premise to start from.

Ok, I'll do it tonight! I was meant to leave for holiday shopping ten minutes ago but this distracted me, so must do that first, but this evening it will be done!

Btw if you need help with techie blog stuff I can give it a go, have some experience with mine and some v. techie friends etc.

Also, I second the "Lenin is a genius" vibe!

wordpress looks good too!

i think it is important to do it as cheaply as possible to start with.

so wordpress or 5quidhost or anywhere else people know about?

Ooh, also (sorry, getting carried away...) I can't remember if I saw this somewhere or just thought of it after seeing something else, but because people have an idea of the "type" of woman who gets raped, and how one should react afterwards (ie if you don't react how they think you should, you aren't doing it 'right' and are probably lying, etc)... anyway, as well as having people with signs saying "I believe you" we could have some with people saying "I was". People of all races, classes, ages, etc. Obviously if I did see that as part of a campaign we couldn't just steal it, but we could do a similar sort of thing? Because a big part of people not believing is that they don't want to believe it could happen to them - and if it could happen to this person, just like them, then it could... so easier to believe they're making it up. What do you think?

I can't do anything like design, sorry!

We need a colour for our logo/slogans - something that is strong and will be recognisable.

Branding and all that sort of stuff. Something eye-catching.

Let's give it a little while and see if anyone on here comes up trumps,

Otherwise your designer mate might be worth a pop!

What we could do is look at the links on here to other sites (rape crisis etc) and any others we can think of, and see what we like/don't like.

I think we need to keep the website v simple - I don;t like ones that are cluttered - that could just be me though

But let's start with the logo/s.

just looked at fawcett society front page - don't like it at all. their logo is pretty dire too and difficult to take in at a glance IYSWIM.

there may well be graphic designers on MN who would be willing to help but don't hang out on the feminism threads - is it worth posting elsewhere on the site to ask?

just looking at the truth about rape website

don't like "intros" but it's better - more eye-catching and less cluttered

their site says

"We are a group of women who are committed to making a difference to how society understands rape. We come from many backgrounds and have a diversity of different skills and energies. Most of us are juggling some combination of domestic responsibilities, work, studies, activism - and often much more!! We meet in small groups and as well as working hard on the issues we also take time to be friends to each other. "

are we doing the same thing as them?

their cards are good

i believe you is a new message though

those cards are good in their own way (they are witty and memorable) but the suggestions here are IMO more powerful - those cards just assert that the myths aren't true. On this thread it has been suggested that we could do ads with the myth then a statement underneath with the fact - eg 'myth: women lie about rape; 'only 2% of allegations are false' or whatever.

I don't think there is anything wrong with different organisations campaigning for the same thing as they are likely to be using slightly different tactics and have different talents. As long as everyone is prepared to work together in situations where unity is strength. IMO.

I find their cards a bit unsubtle. There are a lot of people who wouldn't believe those statments but would believe other rape myths, or the same ones in a less extreme form. I.e. they wouldn't believe that "most women who report rape are lying" and they wouldn't believe that women who were raped were asking for it. But they would nevertheless wrongly think that there's a fairly high rate of false allegations.

That's why I like "I believe you" - because it doesn't make a particular statement that some middle-of-the-road person will look at say "why do they tell us we think that when we don't?"

Yeah, i'm no graphic designer, not even close sadly.

sethstarkaddersmum, if you put a percentage in there people will just disagree with it and say you're an extremist feminist, though.

yes all good points. i just wanted to point out that we're not going to be the only group with this idea, and so we need to make sure that we're not doing anything too "samey" IYSWIM. We need to be a separate recognisable entity.

the rape myths thing - I just had a thought prompted by vesela this that you said

"I.e. they wouldn't believe that "most women who report rape are lying" and they wouldn't believe that women who were raped were asking for it. But they would nevertheless wrongly think that there's a fairly high rate of false allegations."

I bet that loads of people would quite vociferously say of course they didn't think most women lied. but when they read a case in the paper, the thought "she's probably lying" will cross their mind, and teh same for the next case and the next.

it's these almost subconscious conditioned reactions that we need to address, which is going to be incredibly hard.

do you think so Vesela? I don't agree - I think properly sourced statistics are very powerful and if we shy away from giving factual info because it would make people think we are 'extreme feminists' we would miss out on using some of our most powerful tools.

but as a starting point an 'I believe you' campaign is fab.

the rape crisis website is very good. Eyecatching, memorable logo with the paperchain of women hoding hands. strong colours, easy to see where to click. says straight off who they are and what they are for.

Oh wow this is fantastic!! I just wish I had more time to take everything in (lunch break!)

So the (v. rough) plan would seem to be;
- raise awareness (Twitter, etc etc - afraid I have zero idea about how Twitter works - maybe an "official" FB group too)
- set up website
- raise funds, through justgiving or whatever
- purchase advertising space
- other media campaigns possibly?!

On a personal level I would love to get involved. I'm an accountant and I would be very happy to start looking after that side of things. I'm thinking we ought to look into registering as a charity perhaps? I had a (very) brief look just now at this, linking it here in case anyone with more time than me wants to have a read and see what they think. I think this bit might be particularly relevant. It would make things look a whole lot more "proper" and "respectable" iyswim? But I am not sure yet whether our "purpose" (which we should try to define I think) is actually a charitable one.

Anyway, I think I will have to look into setting up CAT or whatever it's called, if people do want me to get involved.

Grr just wish I had more time. Will look more when I get home.

sethstarkaddersmum, LeninGrad linked to a Home Office report from 2002 that showed, among other things, that out of 216 cases classified as false allegations, only in 2 cases were charges actually laid (so 1% in fact). The 216 cases were 8% of all cases reported and 12% of all cases that went beyond the police stage.

The trouble is that people cite all sorts of percentages on threads, and when they see a low one (even if it's right) they're likely to think hmm, that must be a statistical manipulation - even if it's actually the most accurate.On the other hand, I agree that statistics are powerful.

I think ISNT is right that it's about challenging people's subconscious attitudes.

I read the report too Vesela. From what I have read it seems like credible percentages range from 2% to 8%. One could of course be more open about the uncertainty and say 'between 2 and 8%' as even 8% is still going to be a lot less than the myth - there's a whole other discussion to be had about that. Just seems really odd and defeatist to say 'we won't use statistics at all because people won't believe them.'

I am sure that we can use statistics to our advantage. We know the reactions to various stats onthe threads by people who are not sympathetic.

I think the number of women raped in the UK every day / every week stat is extremely powerful.

Like the 2 women murdered every week - it really brings you up short, it's that shocking.

The problem that we have with our stats - unlike say the murder one - is that with the best will in the world, a lot of the rape stats are estimates and so easy to dismiss.

Maybe could say that "only 1% of false allegation claims went beyond the police charges stage."

Most important thing is to make it clear what it's referring to.

(although would be good to have figures from a later report from after the 2003 Sexual Offences Act - is there one?).

vesela, I have to say that I don't like that slogan, it's focus seems wrong. It isn't saying that false allegations are no more common in rape than any other crime while still focusing on false allegations in rape which is a big rape myth out there.

that's very true.

yes - that false accusations are no more common in rape is the best argument.

How about "at least 96% of women who report rape are telling the truth"?

hi - this looks like a useful idea. Might be good to compare the rates of false allegation claims to those for other crimes like, say burglary - I know I've read that there's no evidence that says rape false claims are any commoner than for other crimes.
So maybe a confrontational image with a guy complaining about being burgled and a woman saying she's been raped and asking if you believe one but not the other and if not why not?

When I was at college a women's group ran an anti-rape campaign giving out free condoms and sweets and stuff, with leaflets saying "Real men wait for 'Yes'" - making it clear that it was men's responsibility to get explicit consent and it shouldn't be women's to have to say no. I thought it was a great idea but I haven't seen any campaigns do that since - don't know why.

I'm not going to have to rejoin facebook am I...

Are you all friends on facebook? I killed mine as it got on my nerves...

Enthusiasm for a one-off campaign can run alongside though and then merge/ trail off.

I think I'll stay away then! It drove me round teh bend

Len I'm not sure I get you - you mean that people will be enthusiastic for our campaign? As well as what truth about rape do?

I have been lurking on this and the preceding thread.

Is there an rape equivalent to manslaughter ? i.e. Some criminal sentence which acknowledges the victim was raped even if accused rapist had <insert excuse here> and the motive is unclear or unprovable. I have heard of 'attempted rape' and 'sexual assault' charges etc but do they say the victim was raped ?

Maybe juries could be persuaded to convict more rapists if a 'man slaughter' type option existed. Not ideal but better than a non-guilty result and would certainly give these predators a criminal record and no excuse if they continued to attack other women.

I dunno babies, i'm still not buying it. I reckon it should be the responsibility of the male to prove there was enthusiastic consent as the manslaughter getout is still coming from the angle that women are permantly sexually available and it's not his fault if he accidentally has sex with her against her will.

have sent you one too Prolesworth - but feel free to ignore if you want!

Hello ladies!

Only just stumbled upon this thread but it's a FANTASTIC idea and would be willing to help out in anyway possible.

Len - that slogan is genius, if you don't already work in advertising you should!

What is the strategy from here? Is online likely to be enough? To really take it anywhere it would need funding/sponsorship or donations of advertising space, editorial etc.

The Facebook group is very similar, is that a problem do you think?

Tweet it to mrchrisaddison if you haven't already, he seems to RT fairly frequently, would do it myself but supposed to be working!

Have you seen the TAR website? They seem to have been established a while - since 2002 - and website it pretty concise.

In campaigning terms they seem to organise local events and suggest writing to MPs etc. I guess the only thing was if you wanted to think bigger? And would it be single issue campaigning?

Have MNHQ definitely said they won't put a name to it?

Ahh just read up and seen you have! Really should read properly before babbling on...

In a dream world scenario, MNHQ would let us trade off the name and set up a little charity and use that as a base to campaign from. However, being a commercial enterprise I doubt it could work and obviously they would need/want to be behind the main theories. Is the Girls be Girls campaign the only one they're running at the moment?

I tell you ewe, first stop an MN caption comp win when I first joined MN, next stop the world!

Success will breed success. Think I need to email those with big followings on Twitter sfry, caitlin, mark thomas and the like, don't think it works just to @ them, at least I couldn't see that it does.

shall I start a thread in Chat or has that already been done?

oops, just found it. have bumped. 184 so far!

Surely Mumsnet Towers could RT on twitter? Has anyone sent to them? And perhaps Sarah Brown? Emailing people we know have had an interest in courting Mumsnet before?

Mummy journos, there can surely be an article in it somewhere... Mumsnet focuses wrath on grass roots campaigning? Contrast it with a couple of stupid AIBU, voila.

I am kind of imagining Sarah Brown is off on a very long holiday
mind you she probably has a Blackberry habit she can't break....

I have tweeted to MNTowers. Think you can only send DM's to people who also follow you... she doesn't follow me (can't think why not!) sure she is traceable on internet though.

That's the thing, don't think @s work either if they don't follow you. Gonna have to look up some email addresses. Thing is, they prob get loads like this but this is current and a terrible proposal so hopefully they'll forward.

I haven't started on personal distribution lists and the like yet. It will build.

yes find someone with a good following and get them to rt. aim big, neil gaiman? i don't follow that many people with huge nos.

shouldn't think you need to email, just ask them to rt and they will or won't.

Does @ing work if they don't follow you then?

Hmm, I couldn't see my message in their lists though. Daren't try again, tweeted and ran the first time!

<wuss>

Oh right! I'm using TweetDeck. I want to group by conversation though and can't seem to.

I read a comment by mariella frostrup in the paper today saying that there was no excuse for the lack of women presenters of the Today programme other than old fashioned sexism so I wondered if it might be worth tweeting her. No idea if she is on twitter though ...

Mariella definitely. I think even Twitter might be a bit like MN, you have to bump at certain times to get the attention of different lots of people.

200 signatures! Well done Prolesworth.

Whoo-hoo!

Excellent, it will build. We will just have to get ever more creative in spreading the word.

mariella doesn't appear to tweet but I have tweeted everyone I can think of so that's a start. However I have @ed (bleugh!) everyone who has commented on her article. That @thing definitely works - I have had replies from people before who definitely don't follow me

Good stuff prolesworth re Rape Crisis

I'm well out of it with all this tweeting malarky...

But I have told my friend!

<awaits enormous round of applause for really hard work>

None of my friends have signed (though one is already a member of the FB group against this and is merrily challenging rape myths on there, bless him). It is taking all my reasonableness not to feel quite miffed with them, especially the ones who call themselves feminists. Thing is, I know it all sounds like a very reasonable, liberal change in the law at first, but I would hope that my actual friends would think enough of my opinions to at least suspect that if I am banging on about it this much it is worth reading the links and having a think about it. Apparently not

<tries not to take it personally>
<mostly fails>

I've been having a scan through the thread, what are the eventual aims of the campaign?

I'm still in two minds about the change in legislation, I'm still not quite sure about what I make of it.

But I was thinking about what could be done to help the victims in court.

How about specialist courts for rape victims or for any victims of a serious sexual offence. They have specialist courts for dommestic violence victims. Why not rape? You could have magistrates, baristas and other such legal bods trained with regards to this sort of thing.

This is a very rough idea I must admit. The courts need to be trained to help victims who have already gone through a tramatic experience who will once again have to relive it in the witness box to be able to give their evidence and see justice done.

Have you thought about sending letters to the home secretary or finding out who is in charge of the way court proceedings are held? There should also be specialist rape lawyers working for CPS who are trained to deal with rape cases as well. They should also have more courage to prosecute as well.

Urmmm thats all I've got for now. I'll be signing the petition soon.

I didn't know there were different courts for DV. In that case it seems odd that they don't have different ones for sexual violence as well.

Just caught up with all of this and also think 'I believe you' is a really wonderful and empowering slogan. I will help in way I cna and have got a few friends and DH to sign the petition, but I think there may be too much replication with other rape campaign groups. I haven't had anything to do with any of them but this has made me look at them afresh and wonder how I can get involved.

Imsonottelling It is a bit odd that we don't isn't it, we've finally cottoned on to the seriousness of Dommestic violence and yet for sexual offences we don't seem to have anything like that. Yet victims of abuse and rape often have life long issues from what happened to them. Take the case with the little girl thats been in the press recently. I have no clue what may or may not have happened there and I really don't know about if we should have tried the little boys. But what I do wonder is if we are helping matters by tearing apart the case in the public press. That kind of thing can't help anybody can it.

Maybe there should be a closed court process with rape cases where it's very low key and as gentle as you can be with things like that.

I do like the 'I believe you' slogan though.

I'm halfway through my blog post but I've lost the link to the petition! Can anyone post it again? I know I should go back and look but my computer is being insanely slow today - it's taken me ten minutes to long into MN and open the thread!

link to petition

Thanks!

I think this blog post encapsulates the reactions I've been getting. I need a recap of the best arguments against the "equality before the law" point.

I've argued (not with this guy but elsewhere) that the equality between complainant/defendant here is a red herring - what disadvantage does it cause the defendant if the complainant has anonymity and the defendant doesn't? but to no avail.

Actually probably best to post them directly on the guy's blog. The one comment that someone has put on there is very good.

here.

Right! I've posted the link on Pandora's Aquarium - and some people have already seen it on facebook.

I'll finish the blog post now and email it out to everyone I know.

Oh you're right Prolesworth, it's so disheartening - soul-destroying is right. It's onw thing to know those attitudes exist but to actually be battling against them at every turn is just... makes it seem impossible, doesn't it? Oh well, must keep trying...

I thought this comment on the Pickled Politics blog was rather fabulous - can't say I agree with all of it, mind....

'Why should people accused of or standing trial for rape require anonymity? It’s a serious allegation, but so is murder, manslaughter, GBH, serious fraud, and a bundle of other crimes. What’s different about rape? The difference is, enough rich Tory scum think women ask for it. This is dog whistle politics to the turd encrusted monied right of the Tory party, throwing ‘em a bone for Cameron getting into bed with Lib Clegg.'

Hello - are we still doing the website? Do you still need someone to do the graphics for it? I was a graphic designer for a bit (also did a 2-year graphics course at college equivelent to A Level) - I love messing round on Photoshop and would love to help.

Does anyone know when we will find out more detail on the anonimity proposals/when they will be debated/become law?

Also yes shall we do teh website? I think we need to pin down what we are actually doing, what we want to achieve, how we are going to go about it and be sure that we are not simply replicating what others are doing.

is everyone still keen, or is there a sense that we'd be best off joining up with things that already exist?

I'm still keen! Definitely.

Someone mentioned the case study at the end of this Guardian article on the last thread. I think it's a pretty good argument against the "equality before the law" point.

"As a victim you don't have any protection in court whatsoever – you're at a severe disadvantage. You don't have a barrister, character witnesses, a solicitor, you're not able to see the defendant's statements in advance. But he will be able to see yours, and he has all those people. You are absolutely trashed by his barrister."

Does anyone else know what the court setup is like?

oh look, what a surprise.

(The biggest thing we need to do away with, IMO, to get more convictions for both rape and other crimes, is the common law system... anyone want to join me on a crusade?)

from the article I linked to above...

Ten experienced rape trial barristers revealed their courtroom strategies in the study, Prosecuting and Defending Rape - Perspectives from the Bar. Its author, Professor Jennifer Temkin, of Sussex University's school of legal studies, said: "The defence counsel seem to have a set of strategies. The principal strategy is to undermine the woman's personality.

"A leading QC said that without fail he would apply to the judge to bring up the woman's sexual history...

Professor Temkin said there was "a kind of lack of ethical awareness" in the barristers' methods. She said that defence solicitors frequently used women barristers as part of their strategy to defend alleged sex offenders. Eight of the lawyers interviewed were women. "This is seen as giving a message to the jury that as a woman she believes the man."

Most of the barristers commented on the inexperience of the prosecution lawyers hired by the Crown. "When you have a junior person up against a well paid and experienced QC it's just carnage," Professor Temkin said."

I've just had a long conversation with a friend about this. Feel like I've been talking to a brick wall.
First off he tried to tell me the proposal couldn't possibly be just about rape, it must be for defendants in other types of crime too like child abuse, then when it was clear that wasn't the case he tried to tell me I shouldn't worry because it isn't really going to happen, it's just at an early stage in planning and will have to go through lots of consultation and scrutiny first.
Yes I know it isn't becoming law YET, that's why we're campaigning NOW! It hasn't yet happened and by not ignoring it we're trying to make sure it doesn't. Aargh!

caveat - that article was before the 2003 change in the law. But from other stories it doesn't sound as if much has changed.

I think an 'I believe you' campaign could be quite well defined and effective and the results would be there forever more. Other orgs do seem to cover the other areas but again no problem with some overlap and then merging/ handing over/ letting it fizzle out at a later date.

Whatever designs are made would carry on forever anyway. Adding more voices to whatever else there already is fine I think. More enthusiasm that way.

Just do it and move on when you've done what you wanted to do.

more recently:

"Talking to a solicitor and several barristers who defend — and in one case also prosecutes — in rape cases, they don’t indict the police for lack of empathy or investigative energy or the CPS for lazily prepared cases: they blame the juries.

Getting a man off a rape charge in a case that rests purely on whether consent was given is a doddle, one barrister told me. “It’s all about spin. The jury is desperate for a reason to acquit. All you have to do is throw them a bone and they will seize it.” Establish the woman has been drinking, better still has taken drugs. Or while, since 1999, it is no longer admissible to use a woman’s sexual history against her, you can slip in that she had sex with her attacker — if a former boyfriend — as recently as a few weeks back. Or maybe she slept with another man the night of the assault. Or perhaps she didn’t report the rape straight away. “Any delay and the defence council will jump on that like a rat up a drainpipe.”

This barrister has been astounded by the cases she has managed to get thrown out. Even when a client has clearly lied to police and changed his statement, even when a bunch of witnesses see the distressed victim minutes afterwards, even when a male care worker has the DNA of a mentally impaired teenage girl all over him, the jury still let the defendant walk free.

Another barrister, with 13 years at the Bar, explains the jury’s differing expectations of defendant and victim. “Ideally the woman needs to come into open court looking traumatised.” Pre-recorded video evidence may be kinder to the victim but it distances the jury, makes them feel they are merely watching TV. “She must not get belligerent or rude, however aggressive the barrister questioning her. Otherwise she will lose.”

And the defendant? “If he shows up in a suit, sober, a half-decent, half-respectable human being, he will always get the benefit of the doubt.”

full Times article here.

I read that Times article and the comments underneath is were (as usual) utterly depressing.

There is no appetite in teh general public/powers that be to improve anyhting for rape victims or properly pursue rapists.

It makes me want to join a fucking mafia type vigilante group.

Because there's no justice for rape victims, that's pretty clear.

All you can do is keep on keeping on. If just one more person understands and agrees that's a start. We've had that several times already on these threads.

That petition is doing well, it's along the lines of what I expected, and the comments are more than I thought it'd get. It will continue to gather support.

I'm thinking of going with a pro-innocent-men angle in my post... because as long as I know for a fact that there are more guilty men getting off than innocent men being falsely accused, a "not guilty" verdict means nothing to me at all, and rightly or wrongly, if someone is accused of rape I believe he did it. If they'd improve the damn conviction rate, I'd have a whole lot more faith in the innocence of those who are found not guilty. Does that make sense? If we can convince the nay-sayers that while of course innocent men need protecting, there'd be nothing to protect them from if people could trust the courts... seeing as one of their main arguments is "mud sticks", that might go a way towards our arguments?

well said Lenin.
I am also comforting myself with the thought that sometimes someone doesn't turn round and say 'Oh yes ok, you're right, I was wrong' immediately but you have actually planted a seed and when they mull it over later they change or at least moderate their position.

This law thing is perhaps a particularly depressing one to be fighting on because it's not about achieving further progress so much as preventing things going backwards. But I think it is winnable.

As for changing attitudes, I don't know how you can ever see results, but it doesn't mean it's not worth it.

Feminism debate that I am hoping to go to with two very lovely men I know. Just thought I would let you know in case any of you fancied it too.

I hope it wasn't too much - I was just trying to collect some articles/resources to use against the "but we must have equality before the law" arguments. Because under the current legal system the victims are in a far worse position.

Isn't it cynical, the use of women defence barristers? It makes you realise that the mere fact of women being represented in the system isn't enough.

yes, LeninGrad, just have to keep on changing minds one by one...

Me too: RAGE, RAGE, RAGE

your links were great Vesela.

Sorry, also meant to say that '2000 a week' could also be a really catchy slogan. Like, 'I believe you', it might make people stop and wonder. I was going on about it on another thread, but whenever I wear my 'This is what a feminist looks like' tshirt, someone asks (most look emabbarressed/nervous to be fair).

Right I think I'll get over there

oh God I can't, I'm sorry. The spelling's so bad. I just want to bury my head in the sand and avoid the rest of the world. This place is an oasis of intelligent, well-informed, well written debate. I hate the rest of the interweb.

Find open(able) doors, there are plenty, just got to get the word out even further.

Jacky Fleming has signed the petition. Do you think it's THE Jacky Fleming?

I just saw that, I hope so! Supercool!

Well my mum is signing... and my dad said he will when he goes on the computer tonight. And I'm working on my DP who actually thinks it's a good idea to give defendant's anonymity but surely won't when he understands that it's just one crime they're talking about.

is only the opposition allowed to sign these things? It just seems to be all Labour....

(and look, not one of the hundreds of new BNP MPs has signed it. Oh I forgot - there aren't any BNP MPs. snigger.)

My god. DP is signing but his friend is refusing. "Surely you can understand that a high percentage of claims are false. My friend was found not guilty of rape..." Well sorry mister, but with such a pitiful conviction rate, he probably still did it. I can feel my blood pressure soaring. Thankfully, DP has told him to sod off.

HA! I win! Sort of. I suggested if men didn't want to be accused of rape, they shouldn't put themselves in situations where that could happen. He said how unfair and ridiculous. I said, Why? It's exactly what is said to women every day - don't put yourself in a position where you might be raped. And now he's gone off in a huff, but I know he has realised I'm right because that is how he always ends arguments he has no further to go with. He may not sign, though DP is going to work on him, but he has at least had a reality check about rape, which is something - and after all, is what the main goal is, right? Different attitudes to rape victims?

That EDM is very interesting

Look at the % of women in parliament

And then at the % of signatories of that who are women

It just highlights really well that what we need to tackle this is many many more women in power. Yes some of them are rape-apologist arseholes but some aren't. Very few men have any reason to be interested in this at all, to look carefully at the issues, to think about it in depth. How many have been touched by this problem, compared to women?

Link to NM debate?

That is a brilliant argument BTW kitty.

I have also been mulling the "I believe you" campaign while in bed this afternoon nursing my (TMI) pus-infused tonsils and the pus that is dripping from my ear. Yes you heard me right

I was trying to think how people who see the "I believe you" message eg on a poster would react.

If I was a rape victim, I would think, oh you believe me? That's good. Who are you and how do I come and talk to you IYSWIM.

Now we're not actually going to be talking to individual victims, AFAIK, so we need to make sure that the message is very clear - who we're talking to, why, and what people are to do about it.

I hope I'm making sense!

So you could have "I believe you" with a person holding a sign, and underneath - 2000 women are raped in the UK every week. Most women do not report the attacks as they are afraid that no-one will believe them. Stop Rape - Working to Raise Awareness

That sort of thing.

I have emailed my MP and asked him to sign the EDM and the petition, and asked him to vote against the legislation should it make it to the HoC.

Thanks

I love that idea ISNT.

I'm a bit afraid to go onto the NM thread - I've been arguing for hours and have written a very passionate blog post about it and I can actually feel my heart pounding in my chest with anger. My mum has just walked in and I actually have tears of fury in my eyes! I might give it a go tomorrow though, or later on... goodness, is it just me, or do some people just make you think, "When I'm old and have nothing left to live for, I'm going to go on a vigilante rampage and then off myself, because at least the world might be slightly improved without some of these damn people in it?"

I have looked at the debate there and am but I'm not a member of NM. I also don't know if I'm up to getting embroiled what with the ear pus and everything.

I think your arguments are very clear SGM.

There aren't exactly millions of posts on there either are there. People don't really care out there <peers out of MN nervously>

I feel bad not going steaming in for the cause, like I should be fighting. But at the same time, I think I need a break or I won't be able to deal with it, it makes me so angry and upset... I'm not letting the side down by not going over to NM until later, am I?

I think the "I believe you" campaign idea is brilliant.

I have posted in support of you on NM SGM, although your arguments are very well written and if they aren't working I doubt there's much chance of getting through to any of them.

Another possibly useful organisation:

women's resource centre

Clicked over to NM. It is hurting my eyes. (Yes, yes, when one cannot deal with the rape-drivel, stoop to insulting their colour scheme. I'll go that low.)

I have (finally) written my blog post. It'll go up in the morning - I had another one today and don't want to post twice and overload people or they may not read it. Is it okay to copy and paste it here for some feedback? It's fairly long...

Really good comments on the petition.

I know it's wrong to laugh at Netmums' spelling but the reference to 'the bugler guy getting off lightly' did make me rofl.
I'm in favour of anonymity for all buglers, personally, especially if they play their bugles loudly in people's ears without consent.

SGM your posts there are superb. I have just learnt quite a few things I didn't know from them - they are so clear and concise and informative.

this is depressing - rape crisis centres closing at alarming rate due to lack of fudning.

I am feeling rather defeatist about it all at the moment.

bloody hell ISNT. If they were starting to close now with the cuts and the recession that would be bad enough, but for them to have not been funded at a time when the govt has been throwing money around.... We really do need this new wave of feminism, don't we?

I was thinking that I really like petitions, they are such a positive form of action. No derailing and anyone wavering is seeing positive reinforcement of the message.

petitions!!!

I am not convinced that anyone pays any attention to them len

Or am I just in an ultra-despondant defeatist mood due to reading all these articles, the case with the 8yo girl and the ear-pus.

I keep on signing though!

They add to the groundswell though ISNT and provide validation as well as taking new people along with you. It matters to me that all these people I've never heard of from all over the place care enough to sign up.

hi folks,

read half the thread but I will have to come back to the rest.

Just adding a thought on getting young women aware and involved. YWCA GB and YWCA Scotland tend to do campaigns, generally led by the young women themselves, and around feminist issues. Some areas are far more active than others - I know Scottish HQ had a great team of young women who led on a Body Image thing a few years back.

Young women are a huge help in campaigning, particularly as they tend to have more 'disposable' time on their hands!

They also have links into excellent women's networks to further the petition and the campaign.

You are all right of course, I am just in a miserable defeatist mood.

<waits for sympathy about ear-pus situation>
<sulks>

Proles - Joan B may still be in the Scottish HQ. She would be great to advise as she is very well-connected and bloody lovely to boot!

Wow, ISNT - it's coming out of your ear?? That sounds naaaaasty.

Can't tell you how much it cheered me to find this thread.

Can I help with an "I believe you" campaign if one gets going? I'm not good at website/poster design but can do content. Did the writing for this.

thanks proles for the sympathy

I am tanked up to teh eyeballs on penecillin. The doc looked down my throat and recoiled in horror. Then last night my eardrum went pop in the middle of the night and it has been <boak> dripping ever since. I won't tell you what my mum told me or you will be sick.

I'm going to go to bed in a minute with a towel over my pillow again.

And umf as well

I am going to stop attention seeking and going on about meeeeeee and go to bed now

Tomorrow will be all positive and ready for action.

We have a domain name (2!)
We have places to host for free
We have the wonderful Bertie to put together idea/s for logo for stop rape / i believe you

Next steps - I tihnk we need to narrow our aim. As much as I hate them we need a "mission statement" type thing that we all agree on. Once we know exactly what our initial aim/s is/are, then we can start thinking who we are trying to reach and how best to do that

It's all v exciting

night all

On the "who are we trying to reach" point, my ha'pennyworth would be that there seem to be a lot of broadly feminist, broadly liberal women out there who've lost confidence on this particular issue.

I've been surprised that some really quite radical-background friends thought that this anonymity might be a good idea, "because false allegations can ruin men's lives".

So it's a modest aim, but I'd think it was worthwhile even if all we hoped to do was to strengthen resolve among broadly sympathetic women and men, and to arm them with some counter-arguments to the media drip drip of anti-women crap.

Nightnight. Hope ISNT's ear drains nicely...

Proles I agree with your thinking about mission statement. And the nice thing about the "I believe you" idea is that it's the kind of emotional stuff that sticks, so gets a lasting sense of buy-in, which can be supported by more factual info and (as you say) links to proper orgs.

oh netmums makes me groan.

None of the arguments are backed up by facts or statistics or research or articles. SGM's postings are so well-informed and their's just consist of "I don't agree".

IT's so boring. And depressing.

As a "broadly feminist, broadly liberal woman", these are the thought processes I went through when I first came across this proposal (in case they're of any help in convincing other fluffy liberal types):

First I thought - that (anonymity) sounds like a good idea. But why just rape?

Then I read Women Against Rape's objection to it and thought - seriously? the main reason why they say this is a bad thing is that it "sends out the signal that women are lying?" Surely (I thought) the "signal it sends out" - if it even sends one - is secondary to the need to protect people against the risk of false allegation, however slight that is.

and I thought - surely no one now thinks that "women lie about rape." Why are anti-rape organisations coming up with these clichés?

Then I read that the rate of false allegations was no higher in rape than in any other crime, and I thought: yes, singling out rape really is wrong. Then I realised that the lowest figures regarding false accusations were also the most likely to be accurate.

Above all, I gradually realised that even if I and people like me thought that women didn't lie about rape, the way rape trials were conducted did in fact tend to lead juries to think the woman was lying - and that many other rape myths had a noxious effect on the outcome of trials.

So, those were my thought processes in working out that I was against this.

I initially reacted very badly to the "this sends out the signal that women lie about rape" argument. Now I can see that anti-rape activists who follow trials and other processes and generally know what goes on know that it DOES matter what signal is sent out.

Ok. Here is my blog post. Titled "I Believe You" to fit in with the theme! Tis very long, so apologies... And it would appear that formatting, links, etc do not copy-and-paste well, but I can't be bothered to go through re-italicising everything that ought to be this late at night!

---

"I Believe You"

Here is a link to a petition I would be very grateful if you would sign.


The LibDems apparently have had a policy for years, which they are now talking about bringing into UK law, that anonymity in rape cases be extended to the accused as well as the victim.


I don't know how I feel about defendants being given anonymity. I suppose if that were a blanket law, I would not have too much of a problem with it. I do, however, have a problem with only giving it to one crime. Why would you do that? Why does someone accused of rape deserve anonymity, when someone accused of murder (for example) does not?


As far as I can tell, there are only two arguments for it.


1 - People are afraid that women lie about being raped an awful lot.


2 - Mud sticks. Being falsely accused of rape ruins lives, people will always judge.


Well firstly, let's just get one thing straight. Argument one is utter tripe. People do not lie about being raped an awful lot. Hardly at all. In fact, the statistics are that between 2-8% of rape claims are false. That means that,


(a) Between 98-92% of rape claims are true, which is not "an awful lot" of people lying about being raped, and,

(b) Yes, people do lie about rape. But no more than they lie about robbery, or attempted murder, or any other crime - no other crime is being offered anonymity for the defendant.


"Most people" do not lie about rape. Not even "a lot of people" lie about rape. There is no evidence to suggest that, no evidence at all, except myths perpetuated by a society in which only 6% of reported rapes end up with a convicted rapist at the end. Do you understand?


Secondly, of course if you are falsely accused of rape, that's awful. But anonymity for defendants is not the answer. As we've just established, you actually have a very tiny likelihood of being falsely accused of rape.

It's not "easy" to report you've been raped, you know. People say all the time, "Oh, but it's so easy to accuse someone of rape..." No, it's not. There's nothing easy about going to a police station, mostly populated by men, and telling them that you've been raped, regaling them with intimate and horrific details about what happened. There's nothing easy about going to a hospital, having your clothes and underwear taken away from you, having your hair - on your head and elsewhere - combed through with a tiny comb to look for evidence, having strangers touch you and look at you, having to pose for photos of your naked body so the cameras can take note of every bruise and every scratch. There's nothing easy about telling the story over, and over, and over again to strangers because if you don't, everything so far will have been for nothing. It's not easy telling your family, seeing your father's heart break, your mother cry. It's not easy to listen to your gentle, sweet brothers plan painful, frightening revenge or your boyfriend announce he'd push someone off a bridge if he had the opportunity, or to hear your friends ask, "But were you drunk? Because that doesn't count..." when you confide in them. None of that is easy, and that is what it takes to report a rape. So next time you think that "it's so easy to cry rape", think about what it takes to report one, because it takes strength and courage that you would never imagine to do that. It is not easy.


Here's a secret. If I read in the paper, or hear on the news, or just hear on the grapevine, about someone who has made a rape accusation, I believe her. I believer her no matter what. I believe her if he's found not guilty. And I believe that the man, even found "not guilty" in a court of law, is a rapist. That's not right, and I understand that it's that very attitude which men think they need protecting from and it isn't helpful. But you know what? With a conviction rate of 6%, there are more rapists walking free than there are innocent men being accused of rape, can you really blame me? It's not paranoid, feminist, survivor delusion. It's stastical fact - most of those "not guilty" verdicts actually were given to people who are guilty.


I understand that being falsely accused of rape would ruin someone's life. And, despite the fact that I do (unfairly, I admit) assume guilt on every count I see, I know that there also some people who are innocent. And yes, it would be awful for them. But you know what? It strikes me, that if there were an improved conviction rate, mud would stick a whole lot less than it does now. Imagine, if you will, that you could believe (and maybe you even do believe, but stastically, you shouldn't) that every "not guilty" verdict was an accurate and true reflection of events. Even most, let alone "every". Imagine being able to place trust in the fact that the courts got it right. If I could do that, if I could believe in "not guilty" verdicts instead of being faced with statistical evidence to the contrary, I would not condemn every alleged rapist in my mind. I would make my judgement based on the court decision, and there would be no need to "protect" any defendant because I, and others, would not presume guilt.


Now, I fully appreciate that it is not going to be easy to improve rape convictions. Not when most rapes are not by strangers but by people known to the victim, and it so often comes down to "she said, he said", and a jury must convict on reasonable doubt. I understand that, and I have no solution other than improve attitudes to rape victims and understand that most of them are not lying.


But this legislation wouldn't do that. It reinforces the message that so many rape claims are false, the defendant needs protecting in a way they would not were they facing other criminal charges, which undermines the notion of getting more convictions. And it stops other victims coming forward. Think of John Warboys. It is unlikely he would have got a conviction on one woman's story. Yet, that one woman coming forward, him being named, resulted in many, many more coming forward and a conviction that took a dangerous and evil man off the streets. You can't tell me you aren't glad he's not driving his cab around London anymore.


Innocent men being branded rapists is an issue. I accept that. But it is a symptom, and not even the worst symptom, of a much larger issue - a lack of rape convictions and an attitude towards rape victims that is, frankly, disgusting in this day and age, in this country. Granting anonymity to defendants, while it seems like a nice, liberal law at first glance, actually just exacerbates the problem by reinforcing the myth that "so many" women make up rape, and by reducing the likelihood of people like John Warboys being convicted. It doesn't help in the long run. Or even significantly in the short run - because for all that 2-8% of rape allegations are false, that means that over 90% are true. The same as with all the other crimes - crimes which, remember, are not offering the defendants anonymity. Offer it to all crimes, or don't offer it all, but for god's sake, don't look at rape, with the highest level of victim blaming of any crime in this society and the most pitiful conviction rates I've ever come across, and think that what we really need to do, right now, is protect the accused. Please.


This matters so much to me, I can't even put it into words any more. My heart is pounding and I have tears of utter fury in my eyes so I can hardly see to type. And it should matter to you, too. I'm a feminist, but that's not scary or bad. I don't have a buzz cut - my hair is blonde, and curly, and touches my tailbone. I don't wear dungarees and have tattoos - I wear skirts and dresses and the only ink that's on my skin is the phone number I scribbled onto my hand in a rush this morning. I don't hate men - in fact, there are several that I love very, very much. I don't want to go off and live in a woman-only commune. I love baking, and creating beatiful places to live, and children. I'm not trying to turn men's world upside down. I just want to be safe. I'm a feminist, but I'm just like you, and your daughters and girlfriends and sisters - and if I can be raped, they can be raped too. You should care. You don't have to be any kind of stereotype to care, you don't have to be a feminist, or a survivor, or even a woman. But you do have to care - really and truly, I don't understand what kind of a person couldn't care about it.


So please. Sign the petition - it's not about denying innocent men protection, it's about changing the attitude to rape, which in turn will protect innocent men. Sign it, and tweet it, and link to it, and facebook it, and do whatever you can to get other people to sign it too. Please.


And if those reasons aren't enough to convince you, and you're still sitting there asking yourself, "Well why should I?" You should, because one in four women will be a victim of sexual assault or rape. That means someone you love, someone you care about, will probably be or have been raped. And the best - perhaps only - thing you can do to help her, and others like her, others like me, is say "I believe you". You don't believe that women lie about rape enough to warrant singling it out for defender anonymity, and you don't believe that the way to deal with rape is pander to the accused. You believe her. Because she's just anyone in the street to you, but she's someone's daughter, someone's wife, someone's sister. To her, you're just anyone. It can happen to just anyone. And if your daughter or wife or sister deserves to be believed, so does everyone else's.


Believe me.

Great blog post Kitty, very moving. Can you post it on facebook so we can link to it and publicise it? It might get some people thinking.

I am here Prolesworth - sorry! DS didn't go to bed until really late tonight, I have been posting on here a bit but not had much chance to play on photoshop.

Has anyone got any ideas on what the logo could look like, and/or does anyone know of a free image site or source of free images we can use? I am a little bit stuck for a starting point.

As for "I believe you" - I think it would work well for lots of people to take a picture of themselves, their friends, their family, anyone, holding a piece of paper which says "I believe you" on it. We could start by taking pictures ourselves - and then putting them all on the website. Perhaps create a facebook group, and ask people who join the group to upload their own photos. State any photos uploaded to the group may be used for the website, then hopefully we would end up with loads.

Maybe even say something like "2000 women are raped in the UK every week. If you believe them, upload a picture of yourself holding this sign as your profile picture." - having it as a profile picture will probably get people talking more than just seeing someone has "Liked" a page or joined a group.

No, that helps I was thinking red too. And a bold, strong typeface. I was thinking of like a sign which is a red circle with diagonal line thing, but wasn't sure if that was too cliched and done before.

And I didn't think you were hassling me I'm going to go now, probably, but I will either be back in a bit or tomorrow. Too tired to think properly at the moment.

And for anyone following it, I have just left a comment on the netmums thread. I couldn't resist...

Great blog kitty.

Did you see the comment about the govt minister putting the speedboat into reverse on this?

They should drop it quickly and publicly. Momentum is building and they are going to look very stupid if they pursue this through the debating process. Not a single point in favour holds any weight when challenged with the facts.

Loving the idea for the red "stop rape" things.

I'm a photographer (not pro, but have been doing it a long time) so if we need any photos doing I'm happy to take them.

Thanks for the lovely comments on the blog post - it should post itself on my blog in ten minutes or so. Do you think the last line, "Believe me," (which will link to the petition on the blog but doesn't on here), is good or a bit cheesy? I can't make up my mind.

Whoever it was asked if they can post it on NM, sure, go ahead. I'm not sure about Facebook - not all my family and friends know about it, and I don't suppose them finding out on Facebook is the way to go. I'm happy for it to be posted if someone else wants to, though... I'll try to think of a way around it.

Fab link Prolesworth! Very encouraging. Hopefully there'll be some more signatures on the petition today!

Kitty your blog post was superb. The 'Believe me' at the end is very effective and not cheesy in the least, it personalises it and gives a call to action.

That blog post was brilliant kitty

The logo

I was thinking; do we want

sort of spikey and uncomfortable looking
"funky" - a modern font maybe curvy
traditional - swirly twirly
blocky and bold

i can't think of any otehr sorts

Personally (feel free to disagree obviously!) I think that we need something accessible to everyone - we don't want the logo equivalent of a woman in dungarees screaming in your face (even if that is how we feel)

i think that red is an excellent bold colour so maybe we can afford to go for a "softer" font/feel - maybe something a bit "funky", a bit curvy - not like it's a ad for a disco - and not hyper-feminine - but not too stark. It's hard to explain!

For the "I believe you" logo maybe purple or blue? A calmer colour IYSWIM

Thank you I'm sorry to go on about it, I just care so much that I want the argument I put forward to be the best it can be from the start.

I agree on not being too mad-feminist-lesbian in the logo. Nothing wrong with it, but people will just dismiss that, they need to relate.

For the "I believe you" logo, I think we should keep it very simple as the message is simple, IYSWIM? Perhaps a "handwriting" sort of font would personalise it a bit? Not the flouncy ones, I think we need to avoid flounce, but one of the simple ones?

Great blog post, kitty.

Article from Police Professional on the proposal:
www.policeprofessional.com/news.aspx?id=10486

Oooh yes handwritten style is a great idea for the I Believe You.

In fact for the people using the signs could we ask them to write it themselves? We would have to make sure it was always the same size paper + same sort and colour of pen but other than that make them personalised by the people writing them?

Not sure... It will be more "branded" and recognisable if it's the exact same sign every time, but might be more personal and thoughtful if it's people's actual handwriting?

“The public perception is that there are lots of false allegations; my professional view is that there aren’t,” Mr Whatton said.

This is the police saying this!

If the police are dead set against this law, they're going to have to pull it, aren't they?

Great link vesela

ISNT, I think you have to make it as easy as possible, let people do it themselves and be creative etc.

Our only effort should be in setting it up and publicising it and finding a way to ensure that only those with positive messages get to upload/ comment.

As despicable as the anonymity proposal is, it's provided a means to agitate and take things on in the direction we want.

Ear pus is gross

DH is off work for a week now, we were supposed to be going on hol at lunchtime, but DH is also ill now with stiff achyness all over and bunged up nose. The baby's nose is running like a tap as well. i think we're going to have to put it off

DH said he has heard on teh radio that the police are against this new law.

The thing that concerns me now triggered by what the policeman says in that article:

"“I am quite concerned that a one-liner has created lots of storms when it is just highlighting that there is a review and research to be carried out in this area,” said Mr Whatton."

So now even if they pull the legislation, loads of people will say it was due to horrible hairy shouty lesbians, and what about the poor men, and there must be a real problem with this otherwise they wouldn't have suggested the law in teh first place

Yeah, I think people should be able to create their photo how they want, the message is important and there are lots of creative people out there who will do theirs in really interesting ways.

I think a handwriting font is excellent.

Excellent blog post Kitty, and I love the earlier quote about how if men don't want to be falsely accused of rape they shouldn't put themselves in that position.

I have bitten the bullet and posted a link to the petition on the debates board on Bounty which I also use. I doubt it will garner much support but every signature counts I guess.

Yes that's true if we're looking for people to upload, we need it to be as easy as poss for them.

i suppose I was thinking about the "this is what a feminist looks like" tshirts and how they are instantly recognisable, so people know what they're for and which organisation they belong to etc straight away.

So will we have a handwritten font on teh website and then in the pics everyone will do their own?

ISNT, any complaint by women about anything will be dismissed on those grounds, ignore them. And look how many men have supported the petition.

I think what he was actually saying is that the govt jumped the gun.

The govt should drop this asap, it's going to get worse and worse for them if they persist. There is no support for it from lawyers or the police or any body with any influence in these things.

I'm seeing this more as a flashmob type thing (but from the comfort of your own home!) with the results captured for longevity.

I guess it could become a long-running thing. Just got to get it started and see where it goes.

if we do win on this it will send out a very clear message to the new government that women's issues cannot be ignored. And if Theresa May ignores this or supports the change she will look pretty feeble as an Equalities minister.

also the wonderful thing about the Early Day Motion is that it shows Labour situating themselves in opposition as the party of women's rights; having just gone through and lost an election where women's issues were completely marginalised (and arguably done far too little for women during the time they were in power, though there's a separate discussion to be had there) they may be getting the message that these things matter to voters.

re. the police - while in general I wouldn't favour giving the police everything they ask for, it sounds as if the police are going to be able to make a pretty good case.

Someone linked to an interesting article on Kelly McCarthy's blog post (thought you did a great job there Prolesworth) about the DPP supporting anonymity for rape defendants in 2001 - here.

I think the most interesting bit is at the end, where the head of the Law Society's criminal law committee says there's a "powerful argument" under the Human Rights Act for rape defendants to claim their right to a fair trial has been breached, since the complainant had anonymity and they didn't.

That was written in 2001 - you would have thought that if there really was such a good case for rape defendants under the Human Rights Act, then someone might have brought it by now, wouldn't you. The fact that no one has (or if they did, they didn't get very far) speaks volumes. Because there are X reasons why the victim doesn't get a fair trial.

It's sparked quite a debate which has kind of gone off topic due to a woman spouting crap about how sometimes women are to blame for rape

Some posters are in agreement though and have signed.

Thread is here: my.bounty.com/forums/post/10/2262403/1/1/1/Anonymity-for-rape-defendants.htm

you may need to switch to oldest post first.

Most of Bounty is quite like NM but there are a lot of sensible women on Debates.

re. signs - I think the person's handwriting is best - that's what people always do in "hold up a sign" movements, isn't it?

Then hopefully politicians see it and think "what a lot of ordinary-looking voters we have here. Hmm, opposition to this has obviously moved beyond the usual suspects to the general public."

I was wondering whether holding up a handwritten sign with a logo in one corner might work, as it provides a sort of visual link to the campaign. OR is it better to just have the sign with nothing other than 'I believe you' because it acts as a sort of teaser and intrigues people into wondering what it's all about?

BUAV did a campaign recently where they took people's photos wearing rabbit (NOT playboy type) ears, gloves or noses while holding a pledge not to buy cleaning products tested on animals.

They gave people photo keyrings of themselves holding the pledge, postcards, and temporary tattos with a leaping rabbit and the words 'show me the bunny' written around it.

Although I can't think of a rape equivalent of a rabbit's paw, I think that having a logo or some kind of visual image helps people remember the issue. Having something like a keyring is a constant reminder - everytime I get my keys out it reminds me that I pledged to support the campaign.

Postcards are also useful for getting people to spread the campaign by mailing their MP or other influential individuals.

I was thinking how wonderful it would be if any police officers could be persuaded to join in. I wonder if it would be allowed, or if it would be seen as them prejudging the issue rather than being objective.

Do we know if anywhere else has a law like this? Someone commented on the blog asking and I don't know the answer. I don't think so but I wouldn't like to say for sure...

Well said Prolseworth - give anonymity to every defendant, or no defendant, but not defendants of just one crime. It singles rape out.

In terms of the blog, is it okay to think about it? It's for a very good cause, so I really am tempted, but on the other hand, as I say, it's about kinky goings on and is a bit

Often talking about things on the internet and signing petitions will bring changes.

See good news here on MN for example on the American Association of Paeds policy on female gential mutilation.

Oh sethstarkaddersmum, DP is an intelligence officer for the met, he's quite on board but he's not sure how much he can do without being chucked out for causing trouble (rebellion in the ranks and all...) so he's investigating! May be different for him than someone who deals directly with it, but he def has friends who are in charge of sexual assault who he's talking to. I'll let you know what he says later

How charming...

Some great reactions so far to the blog. Everyone who has commented has signed the petition, and the last comment was this:

"I don't always agree with your politics; I so agree with what you say here.

The defence, " she provoked me, she dressed/acted slutty," are pure crap, there is no defence to wilful rape.

Ideally a female should be able to walk down a public road naked, and the only concern should be, is she warm enough and is she watching out for traffic.

The damage that rape does to the victim is unquantifiable.

You have gone up in my estimation no end. :D

By the way I signed the petition before writing this comment.

Several encouraging pats on the back."

From a man

Hey there- I volunteer for Women Against Rape- did someone get back to your email?

Yeh- I signed it yesterday, found it independently via Facebook so you're doing a good job of getting the word out

The "I believe you" message is great, and very important. I've met two women who were convicted for perverting the course of justice for making false allegations. I am absolutely 100% convinced that both were telling the truth. One of those women is Gail Sherwood, who I've already posted a message about. She has three daughters who are now trying to cope without their mum.

The other woman I met was sentenced to two years. I visited her in prison, and it was absolutely devastating to watch her trying to cope without her very young daughter.

To find the courage to report rape (in these cases by a stranger) is so hard. To then be disbelieved, discredited and prosecuted is just unbelievable.

Words cannot describe how angry I am about what was written about them in the media. It was absolutely appalling- so many lies. Both women were told that they ruin the plight of real victims. What a kick in the face- both reported rape to the police because they were trying to protect other women.

P.s. here's the petition for anyone who'd like to sign it: http://www.petitiononline.com/WAR2010/petition.html

I'm not on Facebook, but Truth about Rape apparently has a Facebook page that might be worth contacting:

www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3916998221

As does the London Feminist Network

www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=21271277024

As does Feminism in London

www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=74895583845

That's definitely the hardest thing. I don't know if it's possible to thicken your skin, it drives me as nuts as it ever did. What I do think is that if I want to hear anti-rape anti-rapist arguments, there will be other people out there who want to hear them too so someone needs to speak up. Not ceding ground in the face of opposition can be quite powerful too. If you realise that they really want to silence you then it's clear why it's so important for the argument to be made. You have logic, humanity and the facts on your side too.

I am a chicken though, there are some places I just won't go because I can't bear the misogyny e.g. the Guardian's Comment is Free.

LondonSun, that's awful. I've signed that petition too.

This is from 2007, but can we still take something positive from the fact that we have already got more signatures, that the government told them to sod off, and that they didn't think to spell check their petition to the Prime Minister? http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/rape-equal-right/

I have (only 2, but still) hits to my blog from the search term "Rape anonymity" so hopefully it's reaching people.

I've e-mailed Unison Women - they are the largest women's organisation in Europe or something like that (depends whether they have to put it before a committee or not I suppose). They do seem like Mumsnet kind of people:

www.unison.org.uk/women/index.asp

"Women’s conference 2008 made a decision to publicise the use of mooncups as a natural and safe method of dealing with periods."

on the back of you r campaign you could look at raising awareness of the young women who are being sexually exploited, this is to my mind a form of rape

I'm too "tired" to read all 17 pages of this thread. I will catch up on it over the next few days. Please forgive me for (no doubt) stamping over old ground.

Pressure groups have their place, in anti-sexism as elsewhere, but by nature they must be very clearly focussed. Otherwise, they become quango-like and get hijacked by vociferous minorities. The latest one I joined, and then quit very quickly, was OBJECT. Its stated mission suited me well, but its actions & communications reflected narrow interests that I didn't like. A while back, I stopped supporting a charity for women in developing economies (I was one of their big fundraisers) because the focus had narrowed and 'my' funds were being diverted away from the women I had pledged to assist.

So I'm suspicious of pressure groups, especially ones that claim to espouse all-encompassing values such as women's interests. There are government departments (european, world, national and non-political) in place to support women's rights as well as the rights of other under-empowered sectors and, as long as they remain in place, I thinks that's good enough in general terms.

I'd like to see changes throughout media representations of gender roles. This happens pretty well in school (hurrah) but videos, games & magazines are getting dumber by the month, afaics. I'd rather support a music video producer, with connections, who has the vision to sell female artists without making them pose in their knickers! I'd love a clothing chain to sell cute & sassy outfits for girls, in every colour but pink. I'd like female and male celebs to stop the botox & fillers, and look as good as they do naturally ... actually, I'd like to kill the movie moguls who insist on everybody looking 25 at 45: can we get a pressure group for that??!

There already is FAR more information available about power imbalances and the techniques used by oppressors to control targets. I'd love for this to be presented in neat, bite-sized form, to all women of every age. Assertiveness should be taught on curriculum, and the basic rules & rights made public everywhere - in libraries, council offices, supermarkets, baby groups and direct mail. Why not?

In fact, if we have one pressure group: can it please agitate for assertiveness training everywhere?

I'm out-ranted. Thanks for your patience! I will catch up ...

I think that is why I'm more interested in short-term blasts of energy around something specific as we're doing on two things now. This approach particularly lends itself to getting things done via a group of people on the internet I think.

It'sGraceAgain I really don't get what your objections about perfectly good organisations such as Object. Do you expect a campaign you support to perfectly align with your ideals before you'll support it?

msrisotto:
"OBJECT campaigns for an end to the sexual objectification of women in the media and popular culture. We challenge the normalisation of the porn industries through lads mags, page 3, advertising and lap dancing."

All of which I agree with.

However, the majority of campaigns I was invited to support had to do with "stamping out" prostitution. Indeed, the latest one leverages the Bradford murders to protest against proposed 'legalisation' of the trade.

To my mind, prostitutes are women and deserve protection as they go about their business, which is legal. Prostitution is not a form of pornography. OBJECT said it wanted to challenge the popular objectification of women, but seems more interested in challenging women whose trade it disapproves of.

LeninGrad - thanks, I need to catch up on the thread

"Prostitution is not a form of pornography."

No, pornography is form of prostitution, hence the link.

"OBJECT said it wanted to challenge the popular objectification of women, but seems more interested in challenging women whose trade it disapproves of."

Most women in prostitution want out. Most women who end up in prostitution never wanted in, but end up there through rape, coercion, force, sexual abuse, drugs etc. Prostitution is a highly abusive situation to the women in it, being treated as sexual objects for men's use. It's got nothing to do with disapproval and has everything to do with eradicating harm to women.

"To my mind, prostitutes are women and deserve protection as they go about their business, which is legal."

Object, Eaves and other feminists want women in prositution to be decriminalised and men who pay for sex to be criminalised. Men who pay for sex should not be able to "go about their business", they should face consequences for sexually exploiting women.

Yes, I know that. Personally I'd like to see the whole sex industry de-criminalised, taxed and regulated: I feel that any form of 'driving it underground' increases the risks. (The Prohibition argument.) Though I understand the reasons for wanting to criminalise the punters.

Apologies for thread diversion.

You can't drive prostitution underground. It always has to be out in the open to some extent so the customers can find the women they want to sexually abuse.

Where prostitution has been decriminalised or made legal the illegal unregulated side of the business has exploded e.g. street prostitution and illegal brothels in Australia, child prostitution in Amsterdam. Amsterdam had to close a third of its brothels because of the illegal activity and sex trafficking they had attracted. Your feeling that it increases the risks isn't actually backed up in reality. Like that Eaves press release says, Glasgow operated unofficial tolerance zones for street prostitution, but seven women working in prostitution were still murdered there during that time.

The only reason to keep it legal, is to make it OK for men to buy and sell women. Not a good thing.

It'd be easier to catch the murderers if they had to pay by credit card, the books were open for examination and there were security cameras in the brothel.

Are you serious? You're happy to leave women open to murder (and rape, and battering and torture which women in prostitution routinely face) in order that it would be easier to catch murderers after they'd killed a woman.

How about arresting punters? If Stephen Wright in Ipswich had been arrested routinely, he'd never have been able to get anywhere near the women he killed.

Yes, I am serious. Whole different topic, though, and I have to get stuff done.

That's terrible.

I don't think it's a whole different topic. This is a what can we do thread. Prostitution is also an issue for feminists, although maybe not for Mumsnet in particular.

I also agree that legalising prostitution would exacerbate the problem. How would you know what to legalise? Where do you draw the line? How do you make sure that everything is above board? You can't, not really, and I just think it's far too dangerous - and there are bound to be loopholes, too, which would allow trafficking, etc. It's awful enough that it happens as it is, without legalising it.

Hang on a sec. Prostitution IS legal. The illegal parts are pimping and kerb crawling.

My theory (which is similar to my theory about drugs, as it happens) is: If "living off immoral earnings" becomes a proper, above-board business, the majority of working prostitutes will choose to run their own brothels as registered, accountable businesses with health checks and paper trails. The electorate will benefit from the taxes thus paid. The cops will be aware of the places of business and no doubt keep an eye on them.

This approach would not eliminate exploitation or corruption, but it would disincentivise it quite significantly. I confess to cherising rosy recollections of the few licensed brothels that still existed in Soho when I first moved to London - I hate those sex supermarkets in Frankfurt (are they still there?) but legislation could, in fact, limit the number of prostitutes, hours worked, minimum trick time and so on. It's not a "solution" to an age-old problem but it is humane and rational.

Since it seems impossible to eradicate prostitution, I can't understand why such a majority is opposed to making it work better for society and for the women (and men) working in it.

Are there any reliable statistics comparing the explosion of trafficked girls in Amsterdam with the same over here? Are you sure the Dutch figures aren't more prominent because of regulation? Presumably you can't count 'em at all here, since the whole thing is hidden.

Prolesworth, it's nice to hear you're not totally opposed to all my views

The prostitution and drugs trades are very closely linked at the moment. Not only because of pimps using drugs to keep the women hooked in, but also because they're big-money SECRET industries, perfect for money laundering. Most of the major players traffic women and drugs.

Once again, bring them into the light and the opportunities for abuse are fewer. I assume that money laundering is the reason why most proposals for full legalisation/regulation mention payment by credit/bank card.
It just makes more sense to me ...

cheers

Might have to delay tomorrow's reply, as I was too busy arguing with Dittany to get anything done today

The Nordic solution, where prostitutes are decriminalised and punters are criminalised is the one that is working. Sex trafficking in Sweden is virtually non-existent. Iceland and Norway have followed Sweden's example. It isn't a coincidence that those are societies where women have a much higher level of equality with men.

It's difficult to understand why anybody would want women's bodies to be used as a legal commodity. Women don't want to be in prostitution. The majority in it want out.

That's awful what she's describing. The stuff about killing prostituted women in Grand Theft Auto is shocking. Good article though.

That's interesting, Dittany. I wonder if it could work here?? The Scandinavian countries have a longer history of gender equality, more cultural respect for women and a quite different attitude to sex. I'm butting out of this for the time being; I'm less informed than the rest of you and can't keep up

Thank you very much for all the insights & food for further thought!

This article on legal brothels in Nevada, might help Grace. It shows what happens to women when pimps activities are legalised (legalised prostitution means pimps become managers):

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.gender

Also evidence about the Swedish/Nordic model given to a Canadian parliamentary committee:

sisyphe.org/spip.php?article2035

You might be interested in this group, I used to volunteer with them when I lived in London.

www.womenagainstrape.net/

They do a lot of really good work.

Oops see it has already been mentioned!

Thanks for the mention chocolatestar- have you seen our petition for Gail Sherwood? tinyurl.com/32mrxv3
We've been supporting her for 2 years, she's recently been put in prison for making a false allegation of rape, and we're campaigning for her release..

Here's a good articles the Guardian wrote about her at the time
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/09/gail-sherwood-jailed-campaigners

Im new to all this , but very interested. In the last couple of days ive had several upsetting experiences , im quite positive that had i been male i would have received a more favourable response , this included being called aggresive because i calmly objected to what was being said to me. God forbid i say how i feel , and especially to a male police officer.

I was talking to a freind about this and she commented that if you re enacted these incidents, having a man and a woman act them out, the differance in how people related to the two would be quite shocking. If you behaved that way based on race, people would be outraged.

Id love to see hard hitting adverts , lessons in schools , documentarys , the end of ridiculous adverts that suggest i should be thrilled at this new cleaning product , the banning of sexual violence in films that seems to be normalised ect and the glamourised reporting of murders and rapes.

You know, i actually plucked up the courage to report my ex for horrific sexual abuse and was told that it probably wouldnt go anywhere , it wasnt worth it, it would drag on and on and nothing could be proved now.

How very encouraging.

I am currently doing a report for college on why rape laws are failing women, which I have lots of material for, but in my summing up I am at a loss as to what is to be done.

In what way can we change rape laws to make them fairer for women?

Hi All,

The best place to start is the Stern Review of how the CJS deal with rape cases.

I work for a Rape Crisis Centre and we host 3 full time Independent Sexual Violence Advisors (ISVAs) who hand-hold victims through the criminal justice system. They have reduced the withdrawal rate for their clients from the national average of 80% to 2%, that's a big step forward.

Which is why Stern recommends every victim of rape is offered support by an ISVA. However, one ISVA can deal with a maximum of 50 cases, so even though we see 3,000 victims of rape per year, we could only ever support 150 victims through the CJS.

This will be worse in other areas, 3 is the maximum I know of in any area.

So for information I recommend the Stern Review www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/Stern_Review_of_Rape_Reporting_1FINAL.pdf

and the CPS 2008-9 Violence Against Women and Crime Report www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/CPS_VAW_report_2009.pdf

So with that information you could lobby your local Police, CPS, Community Safety Partnerships to sustain or increase this service and to ask why they dont have this service available if there is no ISVA.

Hope this is useful and makes sense? I can give you more information, but I guess this is enough for now!

From PMQ's

"Ms Harman asks about anonymity for rape defendants, one of the more surprising ideas in the coalition agreement. She urges a change of heart. Mr Cameron said he examined the issue when he was on the home affairs committee and he believed there was a case for it between arrest and charge. Ms Harman says it would send a powerful message that the rape victim is not to be believed. Mr Cameron said he did not accept that."

Look like this was HH's first Q - so that was brilliant - about the answer.

Ah - I see now that this is a backtrack - however if lots of evidence of other women is needed to support the case to charge then no good ...

Just checking in

If you want a hand with anything to do with teh site just shout proles

Good to hear sound of furious backpedalling from govt about this anonimity issue...

Same issues still apply though. Whether it's anon before conviction or anon before charge.

I hope they are not watering this down in order to get it through IYSWIM

Stern also said som very stupid things e.g. the system is working very hard for rape victims and I dont think it can be driven much further!!!

Vera Baird asked Stern to do the review- and the terms of reference were HOW TO DRIVE THE CONVICTION RATE

I challenged Vera Baird about Sterns recommendations recently at a womens event and she squirmed when I mentioned this

It is also ridiculous that Stern has recommended using the 58% conviction rate instead of the 6% conviction rate... Vera Baird also spoke out against this saying it was concerning

The key issue for the shoddy conviction rate is not what happens in court, its the number of cases that never make it to court because of biased and negligent police investigations

I could tell you the stories of scores of women who have been treated appallingly by the police

Then there are the two who were raped by strangers, reported it, wer disbelieved, discredited and then prosecuted for making false allegations. Both got two years in court.

Then there are 6 friends of mind who told me they were raped but never reported it because they didnt think they would be believed

I meant two years in prison, obviously

That is what lots of people don't realise. The sheer number of rapes that never even see the light of day because of the system. It's scary. People go on about the attitude of juries but most of the time they don't get a chance to hear cases and even when they do they don't get to hear all the evidence. Attitudes of juries just reflect the attitude of the authorities.

Not had a chance to read the whole thread yet. Will try to catch up.

I've also heard anecdotally that lots of people on juries are frustrated because evidence is not gathered or handled properly

If you want more information outside of the conviction rate then the Cross Govt Tackling VAWG Report www.equalities.gov.uk/news/vaw_guidance.aspx and the Alberti Review (Dept of Health) will give you that.www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_113727

Alberti got no media attention when it came out (March 2010) but the stats in it are horrific and borne out within our Rape Crisis Centre and others.

Our main issue is that VAW is not mainstreamed (highlighted in these reports) so it doesnt appear in Local Govt targets, in the Joint Strategic Needs Assessment, the NHS Operating Framework, Sustainable Community Strategy etc etc. This makes it a marginal issue.

Our other problem currently is that we dont know if these VAW strategies, completed under Labour, will be taken forward by the coalition govt. We're having to wait.

If you would like to take positive action now, you could write to your MP and point out that the Conservative manifesto promised sustained funding for Rape Crisis Centres and additional funding for 15 new centres, can they tell you what delivery plan is and in what timescale.

Just checking in after a bit of a gap, and to say to Vesela that I have also commented on that blog post she mentioned.

Hey Prolesworth,

Boris has stumped up for 2 years funding for the WGN which takes them neatly to the end of his term as Mayor, however his VAW strategy is for 3 years.

Actually he's done more than any other part of the country to support victims and I understand that the Rape Crisis umbrella group are running the tender for the 2 additional centres.

However it's hard won and I simply dont understand why, why is this issue so hard for public bodies to get behind, so hard for the public at large to engage with positively. Why on earth wouldnt we want to support victims of rape, whether they chose to report to the police or not?

More women are raped than get diabetes, more than get strokes, yet far less funding is put behind them.

Alberti estimates that 16% of under 16 year olds have been raped or abused. It didnt even make the papers, let alone the headline it deserved.

It's a mystery to me.

Is there anyone who has done more for equality than Harriet Harman in recent time? Perhaps a MN petition thread for her attention?

yes, wanted to start a thread on that. she has been caricatured by the Daily Mail but I have a lot of admiration for the work she has done.

Am impressed that Bozza is coughing up. Very good.

How does this balance with that link I saw that said that many rape crisis centres were in trouble, i wonder. Thinking about the tory policy to fund loads of new ones.

Watching the news last night and saw the item about the rachel nickell case.

Yet another investigation where the police bungled and blundered and allowed a serial rapist (and occasional murderer) to get on with it for nearly 20 years after having it reported to them that he had confessed to a rape.

God only knows how many other women he attacked in that time. They have not said how many rapes they connected with him in the end (did they bother as they had two murders which maybe felt like enough) - and the real total is certain to be more than the ones reported to the police.

Reid warboys and this bloke - all allowed to continue to rape unhindered for years due to police failings.

It's the police that need fixing isn't it. The more I think the more I feel that that is the key. If they took it more seriously then women would feel more confident in reporting, there would be better evidence gathering and more successful prosecutions. That in turn would lead to a softening in public attitudes, as more and more convictions were reported in the papers ie women not lying.

from here

"The IPPC believes these changes have trickled down - and that the culture of officers who might come across another Robert Napper has changed too. "

Hahahahahahahafuckingha

what about reid and warboys then
are they taking the piss?

You have to ask yourself, are they malicious, or just dim?

Did they just not care about these women, or were they too bungelly to do anything about it.

Given the treatment that sapphire officers dished out to victims of warboys, I suspect the former.

Hmmm maybe later then, not sure I want to start the day in a rage!

Yes I know.

Still here if you want any help with anything re the website etc.

Going to do some gardening now though

Yes I've seen that before, it is good.

it still concentrates on the woman though, I can't remember who it was who said on another thread about rape often being in the passive voice ie "she was raped" rather than "a man raped her" and how the assailant is often painted out of the picture.

I think you need to tackle both sides hand in hand. or something

I have done too much arguing with men about this over the last few days... I need a haven!

None of whom seem to be able to explain quite why the defendants deserve anonymity?!

PROLESWORTH sorry for the delat in replying too you - yes I think that is part of it but it is also about the reality of a younger man being a 'boyfriend' spoiling a girl and then either leaving her with a group of older men or saying he is in deby she has had presents and he needs her help , she then has sex with older men to please boyfriend and can then be trafficed around the country, the girls often feel they are in control because they are doing it for teh love of the boyfriend
sorry for unterrupting your thread the above relates to comments on page 17

So what can we do next about the anonymity issue? What is supposed to happen in govt next?

What's an adjournment debate? Has something happened?

<googles>

OK so EDMs are like a formal statement of a position. So in this case the people who have signed up to this EDM are publically stating to Parliament that they think this idea is a load of shit.

I guess they may act as a trigger to other MPs to consider the issue, rather than just voting on instinct/going with the party line.

So not entirely a waste of time, but you're right it has no effect on process.

If it goes to a vote will it be one of these things where everyone has to vote with the party line, or where people can say what they actually think?

I just keep thinking what on earth were they doing, announcing this with seemingly no thought at all? Obviously it was going to attract loads of publicity, yuo'd have thought they'd have been damn sure they were up to speed on meeting all the arguments against. What were they thinking???

ewe what is the argument that the men are putting forward for anonimity?

Is it "snoffair"? Or have they offered anything more solid?

just read the [[http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm100607/debtext/100607-0024.htm adjournment debate]

The bloke who is arguing for it has said that he rejects arguments about serial rapists and people no coming forward and so on, unless he can be provided with statistics to back up these points.

But there aren't any statistics, because hardly anyone ever gets convicted of rape.

Doh!

I'm about to spontaneously combust with rage after listening to Cameron talk "knowledgeable" about false allegs and resulting suicides.
The Stern report has been misconstrued

What about all the suicides of women who have been raped / not taken seriously by the police / had their cases thrown out of court?

Or don't they matter?

Got a letter from my Tory MP on this at home. DP read it to me, it went: 'waffle, waffle, waffle, consider all options' or somesuch shite, will post later.

Holy cow, you do not want to see what's in the letter from my MP. Do you know I think I might actually make one of that appt things and go and chat to him about this. How do you do that then?

Actually one para is good, they just cannot see the inherent singling out and contradictions of what they are saying, bizarre.

He doesn't do surgeries, does home visits, I need a posse!

Ohh I've been away for over a week and loads seems to have happened but it's all disappeared out of my "threads you're watching" list - anyone care to give me a quick summary?

my MP has just written to say she's signing the EDM - well done her!!

could rant forever about this. was just speaking to my dad - he was saying how he remembers the way labour set out their stall with their first proposed legislative acts when in power - he remembers them making all museums free of charge. fast forward to the next govt putting forward its first proposals, its mission statement as it were, its vision and ideologically loaded statement of its beliefs and what do we get . . .

simply staggered beyond belief to be frank

Thanks Proles! That's fab. I'm very keen to do more too... Not sure what the best plan of action is though. Any ideas?

I have just had information from the Head of Policy at the Rape Crisis Network, our umbrella group, that David Cameron has reneged on his manifesto promise to sustainably fund Rape Crisis Centres and open 15 new centres.

Perhaps that would be worth a campaign to MP's whatever party they are.

I was successful in raising an EDM for this last year and was told by several MP's it was utterly useless as a tool for change, without obviously any indication on what would be productive.

Whether Boris follows suit and doesnt fund the other 2 Rape Crisis Centres he promised in London remains to be seen.

Please put your voices to a campaign for sustainable funding, I can only answer for our Rape Crisis Centre, if we lose Govt funding there are 3,000 victims of rape and abuse that will suffer as a direct impact of this decision.

God Sarah, that's awful. That's definitely an issue worth focussing on. Did he say why he's doing that?

Why isn't there some sort of law that says if you promise something in an election, you have to follow through with it unless you have a really good reason not to? Or is there already, and it's just ignored?

I guess he sees helping rape victims as a waste of money.

Helping men accused of rape is far more important.

Sodding Cameron.

In terms of getting some sort of campaign going, a friend of mine suggested we put in a limited funding bid (under 5k) for seed money to start a new campaign - she suggested the Joseph Rowntree reform trust. Could be a start...

Would anyone be interested in meeting up in person to put our heads together and get some plan of action? It might be easier to get organised that way.

Oooh that's great Prolesworth, good luck!

Fingers crossed, threelittlepebbles.

I wrote to my independent MP, a woman, and got a reply to say she will raise the issue -but it was a personalised reply with a handwritten bit at the end to say she was also very concerned by this and to thank me for 'raising my voice so loudly on the issue'!

What a different response from some of those male MPs.

I'm so glad I gave this woman my vote! More women MPs required!

I got a reply from my MP (Labour) today, he agreed with everything I said, he also says he will sign the EDM and the petition, and assured me he will be voting against the proposal should it be raised in the HoC

I might even vote for him next time

Oooh yay, well done! You have fab MPs.

Huh, well mine gave me some bollox about how he agrees with anonymity in "some cases" so he can't sign the EDM...but keeps reiterating how he is "with me" on the issue. Er, you lot read the letter, I think I might have mentioned that I was against anonymity once or twice? I.e. I disagree with him? I thought being a generally decent guy with a teenage daughter he might be less stupid about it. How certainly are the govt moving on this? is it worth me getting in to see him now, or wait?

btw what's the latest on the site - did it happen? sorry having been out of work for ages everything's suddenly taken off and life is a bit crazy atm!

He's a libdem. That's crap about yours, have you ever been on www.theyworkforyou.com - I think that's right, they allow you to give feedback on whether your MP gets back to you. You can see ratings from other people who've written to him/her too, I seem to remember. Just tracking down the Ken Clarke thing now. WHo is Crispin Blunt and what's he all about then?

How far through was it roughly? There's only so much KC I can take

OH MY GOD! I cannot believe he actually said this (just found hansard online):

"We shall also have to consider the arguments on the other side, where a woman can make an anonymous complaint, the man can eventually be convicted, after going through a long and probably rather destructive ordeal, and the woman retains her anonymity as she walks away, with her ex-boyfriend or ex-husband left to live with the consequences."

He doesn't even have the grace to say "a false allegation". He's just sympathising with a man who has (in the eyes of the law) raped someone, because of the "long and probably rather destructive ordeal" that HE'S been through before his conviction. He's saying it's a bad thing that the rapist has to "live with the consequences". The victim just "walks away" apparently.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. This man is in the cabinet.

On here: www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmtoday/cmdebate/02.htm I'm watching video now though and obviously not all of today's questions are in that link.

He said there wasn't likely to be early legislation on the issue. Must be good?

And for added kick in the teeth: "With great respect, I find it very surprising that so many questions are being raised about a proposition that has been before the House, on and off, for the past 20 years and is not easily resolved." That's because you have male privilege, mate. Notice that all the questioners are women. FFS. Does no man give a fuck?

Another argument for more women in parliament. As if we needed one.

Yeah actually I think it was the same guy who asked a question on the subject, have only just got to it. Best of luck with your job btw. I have an interview on Friday (guess where) after a gap - scary isn't it. You will be FAB though, and what a great place to work.

Not really, as Hansard indicated, it was a hubbub of (mainly) women, unable to believe their ears, saying "What"?

Here starting 50 mins in. So many people rise to their feet.

It's in a certain portcullis-themed public building, Proles! Bit worried that they won't let me in, being an agitator and all

You will be terrific, don't worry. You are smart as anything and care a lot about the issues - what more do they want? They probably just want to check you're not a hairy handed trucker...

Good luck for the job/volunteering, both of you I'm sure you'll be fab!

My father has been invited to some thing in the House of Lords in a couple of weeks. I'm trying to persuade him to do something radical He has said, if he gets chance, he's going to try to talk to as many influential people as he can about the topic - trouble is, he's going with work, so he can't to be too troublesome or he'll risk his job.

Hello all

Just checking in

Really good luck with those job interviews elephants and proles, you will be fab!

DH and I are utterly horrified by that ken clarke comment about how awful it is for rapists to have to stand trial, while women who have been raped are let off scott free. WHAT???

Yes, if it's still happening, let's do it! I really think it should be 'ibelieveyou.co.uk' or dotcom, whatever, rather than 'stoprape.com' as it's always better to keep to one, simple, clear, consistent message, and the 'I believe you' tagline really seems to be grabbing people.

This can then be stripped across all associated posters/ads/buttons - ie, "I believe you: over 90% of all rape allegations are true." Or "I believe you: senior police officers oppose anonymity for rape defendants." "I believe you: most rapists are known to the victim." etc

Also, sadly, if you name the campaign website 'stoprape' a lot of people will immediately switch off and turn away, whereas 'I believe you' is more likely to intrigue people and draw them in.

The bus advert idea was floated - I believe that the Atheist bus was funded by lots of members of the public donating a fiver each. It's fairly easy to set up a PayPal 'donate now' button on your website. Then it's just a case of PR effort to attract funding.

I'd also advocate cute button badges to be posted to celebrities, women's mags, etc. Make it as attractive and accessible as the breast cancer campaign.

Then, when we start gaining funding, start distributing info packs to teachers and sexual health educators.

And the focus should be on busting rape myths. If we bust rape myths, the treatment of victims and the conviction rate will improve.

Yes, let's definitely do something! I have nothing particularly useful to say at the moment other than I definitely want to be involved... really just bumping and marking my place.

ooh this is back! anyone else around?

Hello! I'm here...

proles bought a domain name...

I think we should do something

So do i. It keeps coming into my head. Do you think we might be better off teaming up with women's aid, MNHQ, Eaves etc? God knows WA get enough name checks on here Or hassling one of those people to do a campaign?

While "stop rape" makes it sound all womens-libby (not that I personally mind about that) and confrontational, and kind of unfortunately indicates that stopping (being) rape(d) is an easy thing to do, "I believe you" puts the emphasis in the right place, which is in bringing justice about for the victims, starting with giving them some credence.

Hello - I think that starting something amongst interested MNers would be good - it would then be possible to team up with other organisations - link to them etc.

I think that using a wordpress blog is a good way to start something like this.

Anyone have any experience with that - I think you can host the blog under your own domain name and then it doesn't have wordpress in the title.

Then it makes it easy for multiple people to work on it together.

There could be a section "why I got involved with this campaign" - eg for me really it is reading the stories on MN in relationships and realising the reality of rape then going on to read things like the Baroness Stern report etc.

I think it would be good to highlight the number of stories per week on "false accusation" of rape v the actual rape cases in the courts each week etc.

From what I've see on various campaigns they can go from something fairly small to having a larger impact once they are picked up on in the mainstream media.

Proles - do you know if the domain name is traceable back to your RL details - you may want to post on Geeky section there was a discussion about this very thing recently.

Alternatively we could delete posts here which mention who bought the domain?

Ohhh just bumping this up because I definitely want to do something and it keeps sliding away!

I have a blog but mine is blogger not wordpress... still, I imagine much of the html is the same? I can give it a go if we go down that route, I quite enjoy it. And I have lots of time, being a lazy student and all

Also I agree with Elephants, obviously it would be great to stop rape but really, we probably can't - crime happens, there'll always be rapists just like there will always be murderers and robbers. I think we should be about changing attitudes towards it.

I think a lot of people, also, don't necessarily realise how harmful their attitudes to rape are even if they mean well. For instance, my best friend said to me, "Oh my god, Kitty, you shouldn't have gone into that car park...". She didn't mean to say, "It's your own fault," but it's indicative. She's horified that she said that, now, and is always apologising for it. I think a lot of people genuinely don't even know what they're doing, which is what we should target. In my opinion, anyway.

Blog sounds like a great idea.

Oh kitty

Trouble is, it's a short leap from regret: "i wish that hadn't happened to you, to wondering how it could have been avoided "wish you'd never gone into that carpark", to imagining that attacks could be avoided if people didn't go into carparks "you shouldn't have gone into that carpark."

It's about changing attitudes. From "women can and should avoid it, but if they are the one in a million who gets attacked they probably did something wrong." to "women can't avoid it, home is more dangerous than the street, friends are more dangerous than strangers, and very few women lie about it, so we believe you".

I would like to help if I can.

Hi there
I haven't read all of the responses so apologies if some of this has been posted already.

If you want to get involved, I'd suggest joining Fawcett or Object or both. In Bristol, we have a local Fawcett group. Devon does as well. I'm not sure about anywhere else.

Object also do a lot of stuff on all the above.
You can join the Facebook group or their yahoo forum to keep up to date with what's going on.

I'd also recommend UK Feminista for people to hook up with groups in their area.

There's loads going on - you just need to find out who to hook up with.

Again, sorry if this has all been posted before!

National Fawcett website

Object website

UK Feminista website

In Bristol, there is also the Bristol Feminist Network. There are probably similar groups in your towns/cities.

If the site does get up and running, give me a shout and I can help with any marketing strategy stuff - saw someone posting earlier about Tube Cards - lots of ideas about how site can be publicised, optimised etc at little to no cost.

Exactly, Elephants. But I think we can do it. We have to try, at least, and I think this is a good way of starting.

Thanks for the offers of help, that's great

Does anyone mind if I make a start on a blog, then?

Anyone in London might be interested in this conference organised by the London Feminist Network.

Apologies if I'm repeating what someone else has already said!

I think you should go for it, I don't know how blogs work to be honest but you have to get started somewhere.

Thanks hocus! I think there are quite a lot of people going to that here, scout around for them. I wish I could go, but I have to be at my cousin's christening.

Indeed, chocolatestar. I'll make a start anyway, if anyone objects speak now etc etc

Yes please Kitty. StayFrosty and HerBea have been posting some amazing stuff on the end of the cognitive dissonance thread (which to warn you has become another rape discussion thread). You could always PM them to ask if you could copy and paste some of what they've written (or anyone) if you don't want to write the whole blog yourself

Hocus - lots of us are going, 2 secs I'll post a link to the thread.

Feminism in London Conference Thread

Thanks Elephants, I'll check that out

Bumping because - well, because. It's happened! Amazing.

Nina, I think you're unlikely to find women who don't identify as feminist in this particular subsection.

If you email MNHQ, they'll tell you the best way to get a request to MNetters for your documentary.