How to eliminate the patriarchy?(173 Posts)
Whilst researching the Institute of Directors recently I came across this fantastic piece of double-think on their website commenting on the gender pay gap -
"the Government should have accepted the hard evidence which shows that influences and choices made by women at the pre-employment stage are what generally lead to average gender pay differences"
It is just so sexist and privileged that it took my breath away for a moment.
Also, the Arab revolutions where it seems that one patriarchal system is being replaced by a potentially worse (for women) one has made me realise that these guys are never going to give up easily.
I have had enough of this system and need to focus my energies into solutions
This is a genuine question - how can we overcome, remove, eliminate the patriarchy?
PS - if after the other thread on this topic, you still don't "get" the patriarchy or don't see the problem, feel free not to contribute here.
'the job market works as it does because that is the best way for it to work'
tell that to the increasing number of unemployed. Market logic stinks. It basically goes...the Market exists, therefore whatever it does is Right'. Er, no. What it does is to make the most profit possible for the top 2%, or 1%, or whoever it is who owns most of the West. (Probably white males like you im22...just a guess, correct me if I'm wrong :D). The market does not exist to enrich anyone but the property/company owners; or to look after anyone; or to enable education, or care, or all of the many things a functioning society needs. As you would no doubt agree, im22, it's a nasty, cold hard world out there.
Luckily, a lot of talented people who can see further than narrow profit (which will fuck us all over in the end, and already is...have you noticed what's happening to this country lately? Or the US, no doubt an economy you admire? None too pleasant even for the rich, having to live in sterile gated communities because the cities are increasingly unlivable, and the State cannot be responsible because guess what, it only exists to regulate an economy geared at enriching the already rich).
A talented woman with children will frequently do a far better job than an overentitled, arrogant and charmless man at the same job. That's a fact even you may have observed. Also, the time of the single-earner family is over, and educated, ambitious women are not going to go away and sit in the kitchen.
I actually think that sadly, in the coming climate, a lot of them may give up if it is affordable, or end up (as they already do) working in jobs that are beneath their capabilities. However, patriarchy has made the mistake of educating its girls and women so well, that a lot of them won't accept being shoved out of work by ignorant sexist bosses and moneygrubbing corporations. A lot more men are going to end up as stay at home fathers because they will have to accept that their partner will always earn more than they will. I don't necessarily like this situation either; both parents shoudl be able to work and contribute to childcare in a sane society.
Too bloody right. That's one of those little things. Not framing being an outspoken women as harping and in need of an apology.
I'll be in the 3rd row of the revolution I think. I kinda like the idea, but am kinda not brave enough. You start it though, and I'll be out in a bit.
I think the thing is we're in the middle of a revolution, even if we're not quite aware of it.
Women all over the world are seeing the truth about what men (as a group) have done to us. Our consciousness is changing. I'd be suprised if the old patriarchal brutality is seen as acceptable in 50 years, and in 100 years it wouldn't surprise me if it was completely gone.
Alice I am a known feminist harridan and work with lots of them too. The main thing is: don't for the love of god ever apologise for a. being female b. being clever and accomplished as well c. caring about other people rather than kowtowing to managerial crap. An organisation that cares for its staff and whose staff care for eachother goes further. Tories and 'dominant male' types are too stupid and selfish to realise that.
Like it Dittany. When would you say it started?
ggod dittany I hope you are right.
From where I am sitting the situation seems far more complex. There will, of course, be no return to the old patriarchal values, the woman trapped in the house, and thank god for that. But it seems that women (and all the other non-white male groups) are receiving a backlash of quite enormous strength and vigour. We're the new serfs and the dumping-grounds of astonishing hate, bile and exploitation. The logics of global markets and 'competitiveness' are being used against us with astonishing brutality and idiocy. We need to be damn strong. Luckily so many women are...
In the West it probably started with Mary Wollstonecraft's "A Vindication of the Rights of Women", but desire for female liberation has always been bubbling under at various places and times. The patriarchy ensures that women are never made aware of it though so we have to keep reinventing the wheel.
That is what is so great about this latest resurgence of feminism. There are enough of us around not to have forgotten the second wave, or to have written it off.
I'm glad you say there will be no going back. Things worry me at the moment, that the backlash is sending things further back and we can't stop it as the governments have the whole cuts rhetoric sown up.
That's reassuring dittany. Any thoughts how we can speed it up to this generation seeing more results?
Also I am interested in views on whether the revolution will necessarily be violent i.e. you have to fight fire with fire.
I'm not sure about this one myself and would love to think it could be peaceful, but also impatient and angry at the persisting injustice in the world.
I don't think it will be a revolution like male revolutions, so probably not violent, or not very violent. That's what's in my heart. I think women need to listen to ourselves about it and pay attention to what we hear. So what you need to do may not be the same as what I need to do, or what the women down the street or in the next country need to do.
I always used think the revolution started somewhere else, but in fact it starts with yourself in your own environment and what and who you have influence on in that. Some people take a larger public stage, but there are all sorts of ways of doing it.
I also think women talking and listening to one another about sexism and patriarchy is pretty revolutionary. Like Alice says, there are quite a few people who really don't like seeing it happen.
Yes, it probably is more revolutionary to even be having this conversation than I realised. It's just that once you start to see the patriarchy and sexism and misogyny it appears everywhere and the frustration to do something can be overwhelming.
But you are right, inviting others to see it and being able to discuss is actually pretty revolutionary
puts down Moltov cocktail
Yes lots of people really don't like seeing it happen do they?
Which is why they come on to feminist threads to tell us that we're all wrong adn that the way the world is organised now, where men own 90% of the world's wealth and 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted and where we earn 17% less than men just for being women and we do jobs way below our skills and ability levels, so squandering all that potential human resource and economic input, is the best way to organise it.
Yes yes, it's been orgainsed brilliantly, I'm sure.
Hey if you want to be out there throwing molotov cocktails I'll be right beside you passing you the matches.
If you think about it, the suffragettes used to go out and plant bombs and smash windows in the West End. They got themselves arrested and sent to prison. They were hard core compared to what we're up to now. I've been thinking about that quite a lot recently.
@Alice, when I say there will be no going back, I mean to the old values the Right so desperately want. Economically, that is not possible. However, what I do fear for is a sort of nu-dystopia in which we all (women and a lot of men too) work far harder for less money while the elite suck up our life blood and turn it into cash. Women are the favoured workers of the global elite; we do all the dirty work and do it well. But for Western women, things are particularly fraught because we don't do it all as cheaply as Chinese, Indian or East European women. I think feminism this time has to be absolutely global...the communication issues are awesomely difficult but could be very powerful if properly harnessed.
@dittany I think that civil unrest and disobedience at every level and on behalf of many worthy causes is bound to increase. The problem is that the media are so profoundly stacked against us and direct action of any kind is so easy to twist and portray as 'mass rioting', as we saw on March 26.
But you know the one chink of hope? It's that people no longer believe the mass media. Thanks to the internet and people being able to talk to each other, a lot of people thn previously, now know that these bastards just lie, that they have their own agenda and that we can't trust them to report the news honestly.
ok - so here is the plan, don't you just love google?
but actually some really good points - "There are times when it is necessary to fight against things that have become so wrong that they should no longer be. Things that were once small that have become big, but are no less wrong, must be made small again; a revolution, or a complete circle, is needed"
Don't dismiss the changes that have already been made, at least in 'Western' economies & cultures. They have been swingeing, radical and yet become taken for granted in less than 50 years - to women's disadvantage, I think, but still it's good that the changes have permeated deep enough to be taken as read. They were achieved by: mass protests, largely peaceful if loud; small-scale protests all over, with women walking out and sitting-in for improved rights; persistent parliamentary lobbying; media-badgering; individual
nagging persuasion; celebrity endorsement and pulling together.
As a middle-aged ex-activist, I'm afraid I find today's feminists unbelievably unfocused, woolly and whiney. You need clarity, focus and far more inclusivity to get things done.
I said focus twice. Should have used another word like determination.
Here's a clue - you must have noticed how alarmed "The Patriarchy" has been by the Uncut protests? Hierarchies get very worried by anarchies What you need is to stop waiting for someone to sort things out, put forward some bloody sound proposals (sounder than Uncut's), get hordes of women on your side (it'll be easier to do that if you stop telling them what to believe & criticising them for not believing as you want them to) and start making yourselves noticed.
Good luck, I'd like to see things starting to happen
On a personal level I think women individually should say I wont accept men treating me badly. If they do then they are doing an injustice to themselves, also they are allowing their children to repeat the patterns and their daughters will then allow men to walk all over them as well.
It is frustrating how many threads are on this site where women let men treat them like complete dirt. Why they lie back and accept this I will never understand.
It seems to me the majority of Women (as a group) seem quite happy with things the way they are, so they would have to be brought on board.
And what would replace the Patriarchy, because if it's swapping one set of masters for anothe, count me out.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I think there's already a quiet revolution going on in two areas of traditional male dominance: medicine and the law. In 20 years time I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the top ranks of those professions dominated by women.
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